S3/E1 Can EVERYONE Change?

Our conversation today explores the question of whether everyone can change. 
We talk about, what influences someone to change or not change; what someones relationship with pleasure and pain has to do with change and the aspects of a persons mindset that might keep them stuck and not changing... and so much more!  Come join us inside the first episode of season 3.  

Serena’s Links
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/serenapsychologist/
Website: https://thepsychologyschool.co/

Sally’s Links
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sallygarozzomindmentor/
Website: https://www.sallygarozzo.com

Transcript

Sally (00:40)

So here we are, season three, Serena. And who'd have thought that we'd be here at season three, but we're back because we love talking about this stuff. And apparently you love hearing it. So we are back for more. And you suggested this really interesting topic to kick off season three with, and that's can everyone change?

Serena (00:58)

Yeah, so I get it. Yeah.

Yeah, I love it. I love it. And also, thank you. Lovely introduction. And thank you if you're here and back for season three, because we have had really, really gorgeous feedback and lots of people contacting us to say, well, lots of lovely things. Apparently, apparently we come across. OK, Sally, who knew? It's fun. Yeah. But no, love our chat and love this topic today. So I thought it was a really nice one just to start the new season.

Sally (01:24)

We got a vibe, that's what it is.

Serena (01:34)

So anyone new who's joining us can really easy kind of get on board with the conversation, the kind of feeling that we're going for when we have these chats. And like you said, the question is more of answering this question today and kind of pondering it together, isn't it? So can everyone change? And it was a question actually that came from someone who listens. I put something out on Instagram. Obviously we have ideas of our own that we'd like to bring forward, but this was just such a good one to start with. So.

Can everyone change? Sally, do you have a gut reaction to that?

Sally (02:04)

Yeah.

It's a big one, isn't it? So many years ago, I would have said, yes, I would have said, yes, everyone can change. I think I was a bit deluded. I was heavily into the law of attraction and the secret and all of that, you know, back in the sort of mid noughties, I would say. And I was a really big believer that yes, anyone can change. And probably if things aren't working for you, then you should change. And it's

quite within your capacity to change. And then obviously I became a hypnotherapist and I work with people who want to change. And what I started to see were some characteristics that were making people less able to change than others. So some people would come to me with really kind of like pliable mindsets, pliable brains.

very kind of cognitively flexible and they were able to make changes pretty quickly. And then I would work with other people who had been through a lot of trauma, although I don't think trauma is necessarily at the heart of it, but they had very kind of fixed ideas, fixed, a more fixed mindset and dare I say one or two of them really quite narcissistic and hands up in the air.

didn't really know how to deal with them, but was very unaware of this kind of level of narcissism when I was, before I was working with them. Now I think I would know what the red flags were. And I felt like they didn't really change, even though they said they did a bit, maybe they did in their own world, but it didn't feel like there was much change that I was picking up from their sort of personality, really. So.

So I think where I'm at now with that question, answering it quite definitively, I would like to think that everyone can change, but I don't think everyone can change. And I do think there are socioeconomic factors as well that stop people from changing. Yeah, I'm gonna hand it back over to you. What do you think?

Serena (04:31)

you're covering a lot again. All the same things to kind of punctuate there. So my instant reaction is, I think my instant reaction is different, but we probably get to the same place. So my instant reaction is yes, everyone can change. However, not everyone will or is able to. I think that's a very distinct, very subtle difference maybe. So

Sally (04:53)

Yeah.

Serena (05:00)

Yes, everyone can. But actually, when you start to break down what that might look like, and what you will need to have in place and what you might need to do to get to that place of change, not everyone will do what's needed to get there. And I think you really touched upon something really, really important there is that not everyone is able to and that might be very distinctly because of their circumstances. So I don't want to go into politics right now or looking

Sally (05:03)

Yeah.

Yeah.

Serena (05:29)

in any depth of the state of the world. If we just look across the globe right now and what's happening in various places across the world, there will be people that desperately want to change their circumstances, but they cannot. They are stuck because of what their governments are doing, because of where they live, because of, you know, living in absolute poverty. So, you know,

Sally (05:42)

Mm -hmm.

Serena (05:55)

We're always really looking at change from when we're having lots of our conversations, it feels like we're looking at change from a very privileged perspective. Which is fine, but I just think it's important to make that distinction. And also it really reminds us of the gift that we have, I think, because it's a great reminder that actually if there aren't those circumstances that are holding us back, and it is inverted commas, only our mindset.

Sally (06:03)

Yeah, for sure.

Yeah.

Mmm.

Yeah.

Serena (06:23)

then you can do something about that. It's giving yourself the power back to make the changes that you want if it's just down to you. And you have the means and you are living within the circumstances and environment that you are able to have the freedom to choose. Then you're already on a really solid basis to make the changes that you might desire.

Sally (06:26)

Yeah.

Hmm.

And actually, talking about circumstances reminds me of the book by Viktor Frankl, Man's Search for Meaning.

Serena (06:56)

Yeah, peaceful place.

Sally (06:57)

Yeah, which I've only touched on. I have got it. I haven't read through it all. But it does make me think that we do say these things about circumstantial limitations. But when you do actually strip that book back to its core essence, you know, he was in concentration camps and within the most horrific circumstances imaginable to us privileged lot.

he was able to still maintain a sense of perspective and inner peace within himself, which to me feels like the greatest achievement of all actually. So I do think no matter what we're going through, we can still change our perspective. We might not be able to change our circumstances. So these are two different things, aren't they? We have the hardware.

Serena (07:42)

you

Yeah.

Sally (07:57)

the mental hardware, the mental capacity to shift our perspective, but we might not be able to change our circumstances. It's like, you know, when I couldn't sell the flat, you know, I couldn't sell the flat for years and years and years, still can't sell the flat because of outdated fire regulations. No one can get a mortgage on it. I'm stuck here. I'm lumbered. I don't have a garden. It would be very easy for me to get very, very frustrated.

very hot under the collar, very upset by it, angry, bitter and twisted. And don't get me wrong, I've been all those things. But I really had to turn, fight in my mind to turn lemons into lemonade, to really decide, you know what, I have options. I can still walk out my front door and walk around the block. I might not be able to sit in a garden. In fact, there's a couple down the road, and I'll just tell you this, talking of lemons into lemonade.

Serena (08:46)

you

Love your stories. Go. I love it.

Sally (08:54)

My little stories. They're a sweet little couple. They live in a basement flat. I think they might be growing a little bit of something. But, and they've got two dogs and they've been there forever, you know, quite weathered looking people, but they've got the most amazing hanging baskets in their, in their steps going down to their flat.

And they've met at the back, right? The backside of their flat backs onto a very, very dusty alleyway, okay? And it's full of holes and you drive your car down there and you're scraping your undercarriage and all of this. But what they have done, they have created a little garden. And it's the most beautiful little garden I've seen in amongst all the sort of, you know, backsides of the houses that are not very appealing with paint peeling off and the...

you know, the dusty cobbled road and abandoned cars and stuff. And they've created with what they've got. They've created a little sanctuary for themselves. And I just think that to me, that is the resilience of the human spirit, you know, and they've been able to to change. They've been able to make the best of a bad situation. I don't really know what the situation is, but obviously they wanted a garden and maybe they couldn't have one. Maybe they couldn't move, but they've

created something. So yeah, I love that and I can't remember where I was at so I'm just going to stop talking.

Serena (10:28)

You were talking about lemonade, making lemonade out of lemons and its perspective shift as well.

Sally (10:33)

Perspective, yeah, I think we can change our, I think everyone's got the hardware to change their capacity, to change their perspective, even if they can't change the situation. But I don't think everyone knows the potential that they've got sitting on the top of their shoulders, you know.

Serena (10:53)

Yeah, I mean what you'll touch upon there in terms of changing that perspective is a huge part of it and you give a really good example with Viktor Frankl and also I'm trying to remember the lady's name who has written a beautiful book again about how she lost all of her family during the Second World War. She was able to escape from Europe to America.

And she's now a psychotherapist and she helps people do the work and change their perspective based on her terrible, terrible past and all of the trauma that she suffered. Nelson Mandela, there's lots of people who've been in situations who've had to have a really different perspective on their situation. And yet, yeah, I still am very aware of the fact that we can't kind of, we can't overshadow that with you just have to think yourself positive because there are so many

Sally (11:32)

Hmm.

show.

Serena (11:51)

Yeah, there are situations. I think it also fits really nicely into like the current research and models that we use when we're helping people change so Particularly in health for example if you look at something just really basic like the health belief model And you start to look at what someone might need in order to start to make a change Typically and I've talked about this before when you're giving someone the best foundation to make a change It makes a difference at least

to have some of those things in place that give you the best platform for change. Aside from those things that I've talked about before that are much more personal, so things like, you know, good diet, sleep, rest. So you're building on a solid foundation, movement, exercise, that kind of thing. You do have those other things like having the finances and the means to do something.

Sally (12:22)

Yeah.

Mm -hmm.

Serena (12:46)

have the social support to be able to go forward. And then it's on top of those things that you might practically need, which I would just encourage people to think about as well. So if you want to make a change, are you setting yourself up for change in the best way by having those practical things in place? And then psychologically, the other bits are then I then find really interesting. So the bits that you're alluding to, the mindset shift.

Sally (12:55)

Mm -hmm.

Serena (13:13)

So that's when we look at the really juicy things for me, like the perceived blocks and barriers to change, the perceived benefits of self -efficacy. So do you believe that change is possible for you? Then we start to get juicy in terms of the psychology around change, where it comes back to those other aspects, so self -belief, your mindset, which again is stuff that you've talked about before as well.

Sally (13:24)

Yeah.

And what makes people have self -efficacy? And what makes people not have self -efficacy?

Serena (13:43)

Mm.

How long have we got?

Sally (13:50)

free like let's let's go there

Serena (13:51)

Well, the thing, so we obviously everything is completely individual. There's no one thing that will help build that. But it's really obviously, trust a psychologist, but we would have to look at your past and look at your history, look at your narrative, look at your story, your upbringing. You know, what things happened in your life to help you build resilience, to help you build problem solving, to help you build that self belief and self worth.

Sally (14:09)

Mmm.

Serena (14:20)

to make you think that change is possible versus deconstructing that for you. Maybe you had parents who always looked at blocks. But this is where it gets messy. This is why you have to look at this individually because, for example, I don't want to go too much on the rabbit hole here. You could have someone who's raised in an environment. If I just look at this, just make this up, it's very completely made up.

Sally (14:23)

Yeah.

Yeah.

Serena (14:49)

You had a person who grew up and they had two parents who only put forward blocks and barriers and were very negative. You might actually get someone who builds a real resilience and wants to constantly problem solve their way out of it. Because I was so done with having this upbringing of I was always presented with blocks and barriers, therefore I'm going to be the change I wish to see. This is someone who joins them, who then takes on the persona of their parents.

Sally (15:13)

Yeah.

Yes.

Serena (15:19)

And so for me, this is when we start to again, filter into some of the other conversations that we've had. And we can go back and deconstruct that a bit more if you want to. But this goes back to you just building that self awareness, becoming the observer of yourself. So the more work you can do on yourself, for you to build that self awareness of who you are, how you are showing up in the world, that then gives you an opportunity to change something or not.

Sally (15:49)

Yeah, I completely agree.

Serena (15:50)

And it goes back to the question, can everyone change? Yes, we have to want it.

Sally (15:53)

Yeah.

Yeah, absolutely. I agree. And that wants, that's interesting where that want comes from. Because to me, that want, that desire is actually more of a higher sense. So we've got our five senses that we know of, but then we've got these higher senses as well, like creativity, imagination, intuition. And one of those is willpower and will.

and the will, the kind of fighting urge, the fighting human spirit to want to do something different. And in my own example, I had a father who was so independent, problem solving, growth mindset to the max, which is definitely where I've got my element from. Also had a mother who kind of gave away her power to him. She wanted to be a school teacher.

She loved little children, but she gave that up to fulfill my dad's dream. And so in a way, her will was kind of thwarted and quashed. And so I've had those two examples and I've always been really conflicted in a way and always bounced between powerful and powerless. So I've had like my own internal battle where that's concerned with, with regard to change, like how, how can I change what is possible to change?

Do I really want this to change or am I just comfortable where I am? That sort of thing. But also coming back to what you said, I have absolutely seen these anomalies and these contradictions in my own practice, working with people under hypnosis, because I go, we do regression, we go back to scenes in their life where they might have picked up a certain belief about themselves. And you get the archetypal thing of, you know, if someone can't make any decisions or can't make any changes or they feel really stuck.

maybe they had a very overpowering, overbearing father that kind of finger wagged and finger pointed about things being a certain way and having to be very black and white, very rigid thinking. And the child is just basically paralysed into not doing anything. And so it's like that learned helplessness. Is it Pavlov's dog? That experiment? I know you're probably not.

Serena (18:14)

Yeah, I'm just wondering where you're going with that one. But yeah, what do you mean, the conditioning?

Sally (18:18)

The conditioning, yeah, the sort of the learned helplessness, I think is a quality that if we're talking about can everyone change, if we're talking about barriers to change, I think that learned helplessness is a quality that will really make people not change, because they're kind of clouded, that they've got these filters from the past.

Serena (18:31)

Thank you.

you

Sally (18:45)

And even if they wouldn't name it as learned helplessness, it's a sort of heavy energy that sits in their body because they've never been able to assert themselves with a parent, you know, this particular archetypal parent I was talking about, this overbearing parent. And so it just sort of lingers, you know, this feeling, this indecisiveness, this procrastination and paralysis just kind of lingers. And until you help them become aware of what's going on, like that self -awareness that we spoke about,

and tap into that will, that higher sense, that will to assert themselves and like literally tear themselves away from that past narrative, they're going to stay stuck. And some people, I guess the people who don't change are not really there yet. They're not really there with their awareness yet. So that's why they get stuck.

Serena (19:39)

so much I want to say about this, my brain. Can you see my brain? If you're not watching this on YouTube, my brain is whirring. I can almost hear it going, hum. There's so many places I want to go in this conversation. So first of all, just acknowledging what you said, because you're so, so right. And obviously I've seen this also in my own practice, but also I see it. I have to be very careful here. But as a university lecturer.

I think there's a whole swathe of young people coming through our education system at the moment who are in this, I'm going to use your phrase for the sake of this conversation because you've used it all along, which is this learned helplessness. And I think it comes, I mean, again, you've got to look at it on an individual basis. We will never know. It's a very individual story for every single person. Let's just be very clear about the individuality of people. However,

if we are to just kind of generalise, you see these young people, you can see behind them, Stanley's incredibly capable parents. They were the problem solvers. They were the generation that has ploughed through their own blocks and barriers and they're always problem solving. But they've problem solved to a point where they've taken away all the problems for that child. So they've created what they thought is the perfect environment to help that child grow.

Sally (21:04)

Yeah.

Serena (21:04)

And yet by taking away all obstacles for someone, all obstacles for potential failure, all obstacles for breaking your routine, which then take away any ability to problem solve, build resilience, understand who you are. That person, how do you know who you are unless you're coming up against something to highlight who you are in the face of something? So people...

Sally (21:30)

Yeah.

Serena (21:32)

you cannot know yourself if you are in this perfect petri dish environment, which is why going back to one of our previous episodes on failure and all those other things that we need, we need these things, we need to kind of come up against stuff to know what, who we are in light of that or because we've dealt with something. And so you do see this learned helplessness or as I would call kind of victim states.

Sally (21:47)

Yeah.

Mm -hmm.

Serena (22:00)

And then when you look at that, you think, well, why would someone stay there? Because this isn't serving them. And this goes back to the question I get asked again and again and again when I teach this. You know, this will help someone. Why are they not doing it? Why are they not doing their exercise? You know, a physio might say, they're coming to me because they're in pain, but these exercises are gonna help them, but they're not doing it. And this to me just very, very simply goes back to...

Again, it's not simple, it's not just a one size fits all, but what's the payoff? There's that huge payoff for staying where you are. If it's very comfortable, comfort alone can make us stay where we are, that comfort zone. And that comfort zone is not to be underestimated. Some people do everything they can for their whole life to stay firmly in their comfort zone. They don't want to go outside of it.

Sally (22:41)

Yeah.

And I think in not wanting to go outside of it as well, they kind of believe their own bullshit about not needing to change. And you hear it, don't you? it's, I can't think that things aren't rolling off the tongue at the moment, but you know, life just, that's just life, isn't it? And you're kind of like, is it though?

Serena (23:02)

Yeah, yes.

So those people I can kind of turn a blind eye to. Those people don't irritate me. The ones that irritate me are the ones that like to stay in story. What they do is they build a narrative around staying where they are. Now that's a more challenging person to shift.

Sally (23:29)

Yeah.

Serena (23:38)

And this is why, going back to the original question, can everyone change? Yes, but not everyone will. And that's because if the payoff for staying where they are is greater than their desire to move out of that place of comfort, then that means they won't change.

Sally (23:58)

Yeah, and it also begs the question, how bad has it got to get?

Serena (24:03)

Exactly, and this goes back to what I call the pleasure pain principle. Some people, and actually I would say we all fluctuate between this depending on where we're at in our own change journey. For example, I might be motivated by pleasure in that I know at the end of this process I will get what I want and that will bring pleasure to me. Whereas some people wait for the pain to shift them.

not just the motivation of it being pleasurable when I've achieved something. It's like now it is so bad, I have to change it. Now I'm in so much pain, I have to change. Now I've been told I'm gonna die from smoking, now I'll change it. Now I'm gonna be made redundant in my job, now I'll look for a new one. Are you motivated by pain or pleasure?

Sally (24:36)

Okay.

Okay, so.

So if someone's not motivated by pleasure, does that mean they don't have the capacity to go into the future and envisage or envision? They don't have the capacity to go up into those higher senses to use their imagination to think, you know what? I'd quite like to feel the relief of not smoking or quite like to feel the relief of not people pleasing anymore.

Serena (25:15)

I think it's individual again for everyone. There'll be some people that just can't get there and maybe that's where facilitation and so health therapy coaching helps them get to that place where it feels resonant in their body and they can envisage themselves now in that place. And they've got support to get there because inevitably, regardless of what you're doing, there'll be something about that change process that isn't easy. So that's the dick to me is that to get to the place of pleasure, arguably you're gonna have to go through pain to get there anyway.

Sally (25:38)

Yeah.

Yep, yep.

Serena (25:45)

Because comfort is pain for humans. We don't typically seek change. Whereas someone who's used to staying in comfort and is maybe addicted to comfort, they don't even want to envisage it being better. But what they might do is build a castle around them to stay in their comfort zone. And what that might look like are very, very clever stories to stay where they are. They build a narrative about why they can't move.

Sally (26:08)

Mmm.

Serena (26:12)

Part of that narrative can be things like, you know, just the basic sort of like, you don't understand me, you don't understand what I've been through. I've got this particular health issue or diagnosis, which means I cannot do X, which means I don't understand how to do X. So they'll do any, they'll go to different therapists who don't give them what they want to hear.

Sally (26:25)

Yeah.

Serena (26:35)

In my own model, these are classic acquirers as well. So people who just want to keep acquiring knowledge, things, support, another course, another podcast, read another book before they do anything.

Sally (26:47)

like sort of jumping ship all the time just staying superficial

Serena (26:49)

there. Yeah, to stay where they are because change is too painful.

Sally (26:53)

Yeah.

That does make sense and that actually makes me think of something that we have briefly touched on before, which is this idea of labels and mental health labels and how people might use a label to perpetuate this belief, I can't change or keep them in that kind of victim mindset. I know there are some mental health conditions that do make change a lot harder.

for some people and I absolutely get that. I totally understand that. And then on the other side of the spectrum and maybe you can speak to this a little bit, those hardcore psychological illnesses like NPD, schizophrenia, people who have psychopathy and all that stuff. How easy is it for those people to change?

Serena (27:48)

Again, it comes back to the individual, but you're so right in that. I mean, if you look at it individually, you could get, you know, it would be a great study to do. Maybe they, I don't know of any, but you could get a hundred people with a diagnosis, you know, and let's just say hypothetically, they've all got the same diagnosis, but 50 % of them say, might say, now I've got this diagnosis, that's great. Now I know what I'm dealing with. I'm going to try and change this.

Sally (28:03)

Yeah.

Serena (28:18)

and do something to be different. Whereas you might get the other 50%. Honestly, I'm just making this up to highlight the point. no, now I've got this, I can't do this and I can't do that and I don't what, I'm not allowed to do that. So it sounds like individuality, the desire, the self -efficacy, the perceived blocks and barriers, the perceived benefits to changing. It might be that it's actually a really nice place to stay where you are for whatever reason.

Sally (28:23)

Yeah.

Yeah, there's a lot of validation that you get from it. Maybe you're meeting other people with the same mental health issue and you're finding a lot of solace and connection within that. That can really maintain that status quo for some people, I get that.

Serena (28:52)

Yeah.

Yeah, so it really depends on the person, their perceived sense of what that gives them. Does it help them? Is it, you know, feel to want to make the changes that they want to make? Or is it an excuse or reason not to? There might be valid reasons that they can't, but yeah, it really depends on that person how they perceive it. It's very, very interesting. I think, again, we've talked about this before, we can almost do a whole episode on

Sally (29:14)

Right.

Serena (29:27)

have to navigate that very carefully, but diagnoses and how that manifests.

Sally (29:33)

Yeah, for sure. But I think the thing that's coming up for me within this conversation is that mental health issues or diagnoses, as you put it, aren't necessarily a limitation to change. They can be a factor in change, but they're not, they're not a hardcore barrier.

Serena (29:48)

No, I don't believe you.

Yeah

Absolutely not. And again, have to look at this very individually. So if anyone's listening and you have a diagnosis, we're absolutely not saying that we understand where you're at in your journey. We don't know your situation. But certainly, like when I used to teach this particular aspect at university, I would show... So schizophrenia is a really good example. People perceive that. It's a really serious condition. People really struggle when they have that.

Sally (30:05)

Yeah.

Serena (30:25)

It's also on a spectrum so people can manifest very, very differently depending on where they are. But I think there was a long held belief that people who have that as a diagnosis are just not functioning in society, that they're behind closed doors, you know, in on psych units in hospitals. And it's just not true. You know, there are people on medication who are fully functioning, you know, they're working, they're holding down jobs, they have families.

Sally (30:37)

Yeah.

Mmm.

Serena (30:55)

And they are really beautifully dealing with that. It's not easy, but they're they're working with people to get the help that they need to be able to function in society and have a full life. So it's really important that people have those models to see that that we don't pigeonhole. And that then feeds into the bigger narrative around change. So other people is a really lovely thing to do to kind of educate others that this isn't

isn't how it has to be. A diagnosis isn't always the end, it doesn't mean that the change isn't possible.

Sally (31:25)

Hmm.

Yeah, I think it highlights that it's important to have these conversations and it's important to be able to see into the lives of people who have these quite serious mental health diagnoses and how they navigate and how they just look like me and you. It's so funny how we create these images, maybe this is to do with like the movie industry really, where we create these images in our mind of a psychopath or a paedophile or someone with psychosis.

looking a certain way. It's like, yeah, I can see the evil in their eyes or I can see that there's something not quite right, like behind their eyes they're dead. But actually, they just look like normal people walking down the street. And removing that stigma that's attached to some of these mental health diagnoses, I think would be so helpful, not just for other people with diagnosis, but for people without them to see.

what's possible, you know, if you don't have a diagnosis and you're stuck and you're not changing and you witness someone that does have a diagnosis and you see how they're able to change certain aspects of their life. Even people with autism, you know, I've watched, I think it's called Dating on the Spectrum. I think it was called the Undatables, which is such a horrible name. It was so awful. But Dating on the Spectrum and...

Serena (32:45)

We are not safe at all.

Sally (32:52)

And these autistic people have these coaches and typically, you know, autism is like a condition where you would see somebody is quite fixed, but actually they're able to change some of their behaviors so that they can enter into these relationships. And it's so interesting, you know, for someone that, although I am a little bit on the spectrum, but for someone that doesn't have a serious diagnosis to see that, my God, like,

If people with a diagnosis can change, then I have no excuse in my life. You know, I can tap into whatever reserves they're tapping into. I can tap into that reserve as well to make that happen.

Serena (33:34)

Yeah. And again, some people will see that and still want to do the opposite because the payoff from staying, so I keep going back to that, I know I'm a bit of a broken record. Some people just get way too much from staying where they are and they either get way too much. The payoff from staying where they are is greater than the perceived benefits of moving on and changing.

Sally (33:45)

It's good though.

Yeah.

So what do people gain then from staying where they are?

Serena (34:03)

again, individual, it'll be different for everybody. It might literally just be that they're providing a protection because they are scared of what it will take. The discomfort is too much. And so they're scared of being uncomfortable. They just don't want to go through the pain of change.

Sally (34:14)

Hmm.

And also.

Yeah, I always come back to that, but also come back to this idea that if no one's taught you how to navigate discomfort and help you to regulate your nervous system through discomfort, because in our formative years, if we've not been taught that, if we've not been shown that...

Serena (34:38)

Yeah.

I think the other thing, I'm just going to be really blunt here, is you just sometimes we just need to get over ourselves. Like, so there's a couple of things going on here. There's like the idea of, and again, typical acquirer, I have to feel like I want to change, I have to feel like I'm in the right place.

Like when are you ever gonna feel like being uncomfortable is fun or good? Like what are you really mentally preparing for? Because sometimes, you know, if you really know what you want and it's at the end of this tunnel of pain that you foresee to get to the place. So let's just take a tangible example. So we're speaking quite kind of ethereally through a lot of this conversation. Say for example, you're overweight and you want to lose weight. It's very comfortable to stay in your current eating patterns.

It's your place of comfort. It's what you do. Your life is built around the routine of eating in that particular way. And there'll be a whole plethora of personal reasons and personal kind of, you know, issues and decision making around why you eat in that particular way, like your narrative, your story, your past, all of that stuff. I get that. It's very complex for each and every person. But the end of the day,

It could be as simple as to lose weight for someone with no pathology or disease. It looks like eating better, eating a more healthy diet and moving your body. But that's really uncomfortable. It's not, you know, the challenge of doing that, that feels like the pain that I keep talking about. It's just pain to go through that. It's painful to make those micro decisions, let alone the macro decision of changing my diet.

Sally (36:24)

Yeah.

Serena (36:30)

but even the micro decision to choose to eat mindfully and differently in every meal is too much. You might still have the pleasure vision of being healthier at the end of that tunnel and smaller in your body in some way, but you are not willing to put yourself through the shitty minefield of navigating with diet and moving your body. It's got, you know,

Sally (36:37)

Yeah.

Yeah.

Serena (36:58)

maybe less to do with the fact that you were given the resources when you were growing up. Yes, that will feed into it maybe and maybe your family had bad eating patterns. But sometimes you've just got to do the work. And this is what I mean by then people build a story. Like you can over intellectualize this to the cows come home. You can go and get therapy on your issues. You can go and do the work. You can go and get a coach.

Sally (37:12)

Yeah.

Serena (37:25)

It still doesn't change the fact that you'll have to do exactly the same thing, that it's not gonna be easy and it's gonna hurt. It doesn't change it. So doing the hard thing is still gonna be hard.

Sally (37:31)

Yeah, doing the hard thing.

Yeah, it is hard. It's always hard. And it, and it... Yeah, I hate it. I don't think, I don't think anyone likes it.

Serena (37:43)

What?

Which is why it's a lot to do with just, there's, you know, there is the intellectual side of it and I'm not downgrading that or poo -pooing it and certainly that's my whole job is to help people navigate that in a beautiful way, in a supported way, but it doesn't take away from the fact that you still have to just do the work. It still has to happen. You know, if you've set yourself another goal, like run a marathon, you can't journal about wanting to do it.

Sally (38:07)

Yeah.

Serena (38:13)

marathon, you can't turn all your way and or manifest it out of your armchair by thinking yourself running a marathon. You've got to get out your off your ass and run and build it and build it and build it small and like start somewhere while holding the vision. But at the same time, you're going through the pain of having to get there. And this goes back to what I'm saying is some people do not want to do it. No matter how much they think they want that thing at the end.

Sally (38:20)

Mm -hmm.

Yeah.

They're not prepared to go through the pain.

Serena (38:43)

They are not really prepared to go through the pain. They are not. Which is why if you are someone helping someone facilitate change as someone else, so if you're a therapist, a coach, a healthcare professional, this is why I really encourage people just to stay within their zone of genius and not take on someone's entire world in psychology because ultimately you stay within your scope of practice. You do your job as the expert to facilitate that person's change.

and support them and cheerlead them and do all the beautiful things that you do but they still have to do the work and if they cannot or will not, going back to the very first things that we said so the first thing I said was can everyone change? I said yes but not everyone will and not everyone can. We have to make peace with the fact that some people will never change and that comes down to their choice.

Sally (39:30)

Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

Yeah.

Yep.

Serena (39:41)

If they have all the resources at their disposal and they can, so in terms of their environment, their resources, they can, and they're still choosing not to, it will be because the payoff is too great, the pain is too great, they're not going to change. And they might just be waiting for, again, I've said this a million times before, the external force. So what it might take for that person is something to shift them into movement. And that can be divine timing, it can be...

Sally (39:54)

Mmm.

Serena (40:11)

illness, it can be the threat of death, it will be something that's so painful, but now they're like, shit.

Sally (40:16)

Yeah.

Yeah.

Serena (40:21)

Now I'm going to do it. But just talking about it and intellectualising it doesn't work for everyone. That can become the safer place to stay as part of the payoff. Yeah. Does that make sense? This is what I do, trying to go solo as I said.

Sally (40:26)

No.

Yeah, it really does and I I

Yeah!

No, I love it, but I'm slightly perturbed because Graham has just decided to print something and...

Serena (40:47)

I could hear your friend to go there. Does the man not know that you're on a podcast?

Sally (40:52)

And the printer's out of paper anyway, so...

Serena (40:56)

I'm gonna leave that in.

Sally (40:58)

Yeah, but I know I love what you've said. I mean, you've totally just like bamboozled that and I love it. And I'm thought I'm not interrupting you because you are totally on a roll and you're getting stuff out of your system. Clearly there's frustration there for you love. I'm sensing into that and yeah, it is frustrating. And so many things come up for me in this idea that there's people that are in therapy perpetually. And I see a lot on Reddit as well where therapy is not working.

Therapy is not, I've tried this, it's not working. I'm like, it's not the therapy. Therapy is not going to hold your hand. Your therapist cannot live with you and watch what you're putting in your mouth. Your therapist cannot live with you and make sure you're going to bed on time and help you have those and be there with you to whisper in your ear what you should be saying to your partner and not overreacting. Actually, you have to do the inner work. You have to face that.

horrible, horrible feeling of discomfort and actually link it to progress. And that's the key. That's the key. That is the real key. Like if it feels horrible, it's probably because you're doing the right thing. If it feels nice and safe, you're staying. Go on.

Serena (42:05)

Yeah, that's the reef.

Yeah. Sorry, I was just gonna say that this for me also links back to, you know, those first couple of episodes we did on your why. So often what can really help you have the stamina and the determination and the drive to do that thing is to have a really, really deeply meaningful reason to do it in the first place, to not just do it arbitrarily. So.

just losing weight for the sake of it, just stopping smoking for the sake of it. It's like, why do you want to do that? It won't work for everyone. Sometimes the why, you know, you might have that in place, but still the pain is too scary. It will put you off. But you're absolutely spot on, Sally. The reframing of that can mean that even the pain becomes pleasure.

Sally (42:45)

Yeah.

put you off. Yeah!

Mm -hmm.

Serena (43:05)

So we've all been there. If you've actually achieved anything, if you actually have achieved anything in your life that was difficult, it wasn't all moonlight and roses, but there'll be times when it was really, really dark. But also that muscle that you've built when you do make a change in the future means that you might be able to more easily start to reframe that painful process because now you have the somatic sense and the...

kind of intellectual sense that this is heading somewhere and so the pain in it feels like progression.

Sally (43:39)

Yeah, you get that, yeah.

Serena (43:41)

and you realise actually this is heading somewhere. This means I'm doing the work.

Sally (43:46)

Yeah, and it can become addictive. You know, I have found it pretty addictive in my own life with seeing the benefits physically from strength training and intermittent fasting and stuff like that. And I will admit, you know, last time, if you've been listening back to the previous episodes, first season, I was more into intuitive eating. Second season, I was doing intermittent fasting and I was really enjoying it.

Now I'm kind of like somewhere in between kind of getting back on the intermittent fasting bandwagon. It's much easier second time around. And I had to quit because I had a really bad mouth allergy, which, yeah, which came about as a result of the protein powder that I was taking to help me with the, yeah, I was allergic to it. And it was just manifested in this like terrible oral thrush and inflammation in my mouth and just loads of stuff.

Serena (44:28)

it was.

I'm wondering, should we cut that out? Should we cut...

Sally (44:43)

That's fine. Leave it in, I don't mind.

Serena (44:48)

my god, are you pulling a thing? I remember that!

Sally (44:50)

Yeah, yeah, I had like really bad blown up lips, but I've been off it now, been off that powder. And it's interesting because now I'm kind of like going back into intermittent fasting, but with a slightly different approach. And like you say, it does when you've got that neural pathway already there and you're leaning into that sensation of hunger and you're mindful about it. Obviously you're not letting yourself have a complete whitey. You know, you're drinking your electrolytes and all that stuff.

but you're mindful and you recognize it. yeah, this hunger feeling, that means progress. I can lean into that. Maybe I can push it for half an hour.

Serena (45:29)

so whitey? What is this is that what you said?

Sally (45:31)

A whitey is when you like, basically when you feel faint. Have you not heard that before? Really?

Serena (45:38)

my life. Now I thought we best actually clarify that for just me and any listener. If you don't know what that is, please tell me if you didn't know either. If I haven't got a clue then...

Sally (45:47)

That comes from my drug -taking days.

Serena (45:51)

You're socking it to us today Sally, love it!

Sally (45:55)

When I used to smoke cannabis with my friends at, I don't know, age 15 or something stupid like that, you'd have a whitey, like, because it was just too much for your system. And you'd go white and you'd sweat and you'd be so vasovagal, you know, your vagus nerve.

Serena (46:07)

Yes.

Yeah, what an education we're having today. What was it?

Sally (46:15)

I've been around the block.

Serena (46:18)

I love, James, I was looking for something you said there, because you said you've tried intuitive eating and intermittent fasting, now you're doing something between the two, and I thought that's the rebel in you again, isn't it? You're making it your own. You won't be... Yeah.

Sally (46:29)

yeah making it my own i've got rules are there to be broken we should know this

Serena (46:36)

I know this is new. I wonder whether we wrap up, but before we wrap up, I just wanted to recommend a book to people. I think I should have shares in Amazon or something, because I'm always recommending books to people. But if you are interested in overcoming procrastination, there's a really simple, short, beautiful book, which I recommend to everyone I speak to, called The War of Art by Steven Pressfield. And it's just a really good kick up the butt book.

which just basically says, you know, procrastination is a load of bollocks and you have to get on with it. That's on the back. Yeah, Jokes aside, it's a really great little book and it's a really lovely one because you can dip in and out of it and just read like a page or two, very, very short kind of thoughts on procrastination.

Sally (47:12)

Yeah, yeah, in a very eloquent poetic way, but that's the essence.

Yeah.

Serena (47:32)

This really puts procrastination into perspective and I think what we're looking at today here really highlights a lot of procrastination that does go on when we're looking at changing. We're procrastinating, we're staying in our comfort zone, we're not wanting to just do the damn work and sometimes, you know, as I said, if you've got everything at your disposal, if actually it does come down to more of a mindset issue and it looks like just getting on with it, then just giving yourself a bit of a kick up the butt sometimes can be really helpful.

Sally (47:42)

Yeah.

Yeah, I read that inner talk is so powerful. You know, I think I'm going to get a t -shirt that says love the struggle because I really do think that struggle can actually be really worthwhile in the sense that we know ourselves deeper after a bit of a struggle, you know. And there's this whole narrative around not struggling. And I get that, you know, in the menopausal world that I'm in and women typically do take on more struggle.

Serena (48:07)

No.

Sally (48:30)

than perhaps we should. But when we're looking at change and creating things in our life that we want, like want to feel better, want to have more energy, want to sleep better, want to have better relationships, we have to go through the struggle. The only way out is through. I know it's a cliche and I absolutely second what you've said about just bloody well get on with it. Just like, just go through.

Serena (48:30)

Yeah.

Yeah.

Sally (48:59)

Don't be so afraid of pain because you will feel so much better afterwards. It's like that whole thing of going into cold water and making yourself do the thing that you don't want to do. Just out of curiosity, just out of curiosity, how are you going to feel afterwards? Be curious about that future version of you. How are they going to feel? Yeah, really tap into that. Tap into those higher senses.

Serena (49:22)

Love you.

There's so much I want to say in response to what you've said, but I'm going to shut my mouth because I think it's a good place to end it. Thank you.

Sally (49:33)

Yeah, it's a good place to end on episode one, season three. And I think the conclusion that we've come to is that, yes, everyone can change, but not everyone will. There has to be enough motivation. There has to be enough desire to be kind of held accountable as well. I mean, accountability is probably a whole other episode really, but yeah, that's our two pennies worth.

Serena (50:01)

Yeah and also just one last thing to say that to get to that place of pleasure you will need to go through pain and that's okay. So that idea of reframing that pain if the thing that you desire is something that you really want it's possible. Thank you, thank you. Lovely to see you as always and we'll see you in episode two. Yeah, bye.

Sally (50:09)

Yeah.

Yeah, amazing. Thank you, love.

See you later!

Great.