S3/E2 The Role of Boundaries in Behaviour Change

In our conversation today we discuss the importance of boundaries and how they can facilitate personal and relational change.   We talk about what boundaries actually are; why they endow us with creativity and empowerment; barriers to setting boundaries and so much more.    Ready to set some boundaries but not quite sure how?  We've got the answers.  See you inside.  

Serena’s Links
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/serenapsychologist/
Website: https://thepsychologyschool.co/

Sally’s Links
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sallygarozzomindmentor/
Website: https://www.sallygarozzo.com

Transcript

Sally (02:19)

So, season three, yeah, season three, episode two, we're talking about boundaries today. And this is a subject that I really enjoy this subject, actually. I've got some quite good boundaries. I never used to, but yeah. What do you think about this subject? What's your general feeling of boundaries?

Serena (02:54)

I think if you've listened to the podcast for any length of time, I feel like I start every podcast by going, I'm really passionate about this one. Sure enough, it's the same for boundaries. Boundaries. I think I love this topic for the podcast particularly because people don't, it's not one of the first things that comes to mind when you're thinking about behavior change, either for yourself or someone else's change that you're facilitating.

You don't instantly think of your boundaries. People typically go to the tools and the interventions and the things that you can do to facilitate someone else's change in terms of what you can add. People don't typically think about how actually, I don't want to go too down the rabbit hole straight away, but when you're facilitating someone else's change, if you're helping someone, that person's change, the only thing you can control in that interaction is you.

Sally (03:54)

Mm -hmm.

Serena (03:54)

And so you have to come to that relationship with boundaries in place. We're going to dig down, I hope, in this episode around what that looks like and how you having boundaries is really facilitative of someone else's change and it's crucial to your own change for you to know what your boundaries are.

Sally (03:58)

Mmm.

Yeah.

Yeah, I was going to say it's a two pronged approach, isn't it? Because if you're a healthcare practitioner, you're going to definitely want to tap into boundaries for that particular relationship. And for me, I know I've had really loose boundaries in the past and it's really not been helpful. And I've had to really solidify my boundaries and really lay them out in the terms of engagement when I'm working with people, because I offer people WhatsApp support.

So that is an invitation for them to come into my world when they're not working with me. And for some therapists, they find that like a really horrific idea, but it comes from coaching really. Well, I had a business coach for quite some time and I was able to reach out to her via WhatsApp, sending voice messages. And it was so helpful when you're in the moment and you're having like...

you need a decision, you need an answer there and then, or you just want to bounce some ideas around. It's a bit like a masterclass really. I thought it was so helpful for me that that's what I wanted to offer to my clients. So I do that. But from a client perspective, I always, always end up tapping into that idea of a boundary resource for someone. So for example, if someone's coming to me because they're menopausal,

They're, and they're exhausted, but they're, for example, their partner might have expectations that they go to social events or they're very excited about social events or their relationships have been built on socializing. And now, they're wanting to feel better. The client's wanting to feel better. There's definitely a boundary that needs to be put in there, but that boundary is coming up against a coping strategy, which is that, you know, the people pleasing tendency.

Serena (06:01)

Hmm.

Sally (06:02)

So it's like, how do you get someone to set a boundary when a boundary feels quite terrifying? So those are the things that I think are quite interesting to discuss actually around boundaries. And also this idea of, can you be too bounded? Which I'm sure we'll go into as the conversation goes on. But why don't we start with this?

Serena (06:27)

yet.

Sally (06:29)

Why don't we clarify what are boundaries? What exactly are they?

Serena (06:36)

I've never really thought about the definition of that. I probably have. I've got one in my course. I hope I have one somewhere. I think really simply put a boundary is, like your, literally a boundary is your boundaries, your limit or your rule, something that you set for yourself that will be of benefit to you, but potentially other people. And like you said, that two pronged approach both. So there's, there's kind of limits and rules that we put in place to

Sally (06:53)

Mm -hmm.

Yeah.

Serena (07:06)

protect ourselves in some way. It might not always be about protection either, it might be about change and enhancement. So there will be lots of reasons that you want to put that particular boundary in place and it will be very dependent on the relationship that you're looking at as well, the relationship that you're trying to set boundaries in. Or it might not even be relational, you might set boundaries for yourself for example in terms of your own eating or your own habits.

Sally (07:09)

Yeah.

Mmm.

Serena (07:35)

boundaries are those kind of rules that we have for ourselves that we feel serve us in some way is the way I would describe it. Maybe I should have made a definition before we came on.

Sally (07:41)

Yeah. Yeah, I...

Well, I would call them, and this is from a, I started reading Nicole Lappara's book, yes, just picked it up actually. It was a coincidence that I ended up on boundaries. But it's this idea of intentional limitations. And we often think as limitations are something that we don't want. You know, there's a lot of kickback, isn't there? When you say to someone,

There might be a limitation that you need to set for your own health or your own wellbeing. It's like, I don't want to be limited. I don't, you know, that can really play into someone's trauma if there's been a lot of limitations growing up in childhood. But actually, I think limitations can be quite empowering and I think they can be quite creative as well. When we place limitations on ourselves, we're forced to be more creative.

Serena (08:20)

Hmm.

Sally (08:43)

You know, we have to use the resources that we've got to get our needs met. And also this idea of empowerment is like, it's so, so boundaries are like choices, aren't they? They're choices that we make for our own good to help us. And within that, because it's a choice, we're utilizing that, what I call that solar plexus energy that will those higher senses that I spoke about in the last episode.

Serena (08:43)

Yeah.

Sally (09:12)

to do something really good for ourselves. So they feel very empowering actually.

Serena (09:18)

Well, I was going to say, just something you've said there is so interesting about they can be creative. And I love that obviously this taps totally into my joy around creativity and play. And I love that you picked up on that because as you said, putting boundaries in place can actually enhance creativity. So there's an exercise that you can do, just an artistic exercise to kind of...

Sally (09:29)

Yeah.

Serena (09:45)

look at what that would feel like or sense how that works. And that's just a really simple thing where you put a limitation on how many lines you can use to draw a landscape or a face. So I said to you, so draw someone's face. It might be there's a face there, have a go at drawing that face. Now you can only draw that face with 20 lines. Now have a go at doing that with only 10 lines, only four lines and see what you can get.

Sally (09:57)

Yeah.

Mmm.

Serena (10:11)

just the nuance of the force of creativity. I remember you mentioned before that when you're at music school, only being able to use a few chords as well. That limitation, that boundary forces your creativity. So it can be a really beautiful enhancer because it's forcing you to do something different.

Sally (10:20)

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yes, therefore, you know, change, and that is what change is, isn't it? It's doing something different.

Serena (10:36)

you

It really is. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So, you know, even if you just take that kind of principle into your own life and you think about where you can apply that, it just made me think of, did you ever, I think you're old, you are old enough to remember I know this. I never really liked the program, but I always used to watch it. So I think it was on when I got home from school, but Ready, Steady, Cook, is that what it's called? As well. So I know this is going kind of, it looks like we're going outside of boundaries, but what we're saying is it's a limit.

Sally (10:53)

You

yay! Ready Said He Cook! Yeah, loved it.

Serena (11:08)

boundaries are limits so in that sense you've only got these three ingredients what are you gonna make with these ingredients it's the same thing it's enforcing those boundaries those limits and it does something to help you problem solve something in a different way to try and you have to see things differently and that can evoke all kinds of beautiful aspects of your own creativity

Sally (11:32)

There you go, yeah. And tapping into the greatness of who you are as a person and the power that you do have to affect change in your life, you know? And when we set boundaries, it really takes us out of victim mentality, victim mindset.

Serena (11:42)

Yeah.

Yeah, definitely. I'm interested to know, so you mentioned at the start that you have boundaries in place, Sally. So are you happy to talk about what some of those, what are you laughing straight away? What instantly comes to mind? Is there something that you have in the forefront as a very kind of strict boundary for yourself and where would that manifest?

Sally (11:52)

Mm.

Yeah, I do have. So in work, like in my terms, I say that people can only contact me via the WhatsApp between certain hours. So between 8 a and 6 p and not on weekends. Funny enough, though, some clients don't actually see that or they've read it. They've said they've read it, but they don't and they don't stick to it. And sometimes that's okay. Sometimes that's okay because I kind of understand and

that maybe they're working nine to five and they want to reach out to me after hours. And you know what? I actually don't mind if someone says, is it okay if I reach out to you after hours? Or I might even offer that if I know someone's working full time. So it's really just about having the conversation first to manage expectations. But if you don't put that in.

which I didn't do for a very long time. And people are messaging me all the hours God sent so I'd wake up in the morning and look at my phone. And the first thing I see is someone sending a message about the, you know, the shit night sleep that they've had. And that's really going to affect me. Like I'm absorbing that psychic energy. And I don't mind. I'm very, very happy to support my clients in any way that I can. You know, I go above and beyond, but it's so important for my

You know, if I don't have good mental health and good boundaries, I'm not setting a good example for them as well. So it really is about, you know, we model behavior, don't we? And you have to set the behavior that you expect your clients to have within themselves because you know that it's going to help them in their life. So I have that. I also have some boundaries around family.

Serena (14:02)

How long have we got?

Sally (14:02)

And just like, you know, I think it's, I think as well, like taking phone calls in this day and age is seems to be a bit of a boundary now, which is, it's terrible to say because back in the day, you know, a phone call wasn't a boundary issue. It wasn't a boundary violation for sure. But these days it's like, you, you, you're almost

Serena (14:07)

You

Who's calling? How dare they go?

Sally (14:30)

Yeah! Like what the hell? Someone's phoning!

Serena (14:32)

Are you surprised?

Sally (14:35)

Do you know there's such a thing as a voice message? What do you want to tell me? Just VM me. I like getting, you know, I think it's because life is so busy, isn't it? Life is so busy these days and we're called to do so many different things because of the phones. Yet, I'm losing my thread here, sorry. I'm gonna have to.

Serena (15:00)

No, it's alright. So, you having boundaries with your family.

Sally (15:06)

Yeah, phone calls. My dad's old school. He would love to sit and chat for ages, but he's a bit of a radio transmitter and he doesn't really listen because he doesn't really hear very well, but also he just doesn't really listen. And so that's a boundary that I've set. I won't actually have, I mean, I'll have a phone call with him, but I have to know that's what I'm getting into. It's almost like a...

a boring podcast that I'm listening to. and I have to, I just have to say again, no, he won't, he won't. And he knows as well. It's like, he gets it. yeah. So those are the sorts of boundaries that I have. I mean, more might come into my mind as the podcast goes on, but what about you? Do you, do you have any?

Serena (15:40)

I hope he doesn't listen to this.

I think probably similar to you and I think, you know, I have boundaries that I set in place for relationships, what's acceptable, what's not acceptable, same thing with my family. And I think one of the things to kind of mention there is there'll be boundaries with what's coming to mind as you're speaking and I'm kind of self -reflecting. So there will be boundaries that you announce to people and there'll be boundaries that are yours that no one needs to know about.

Sally (16:11)

Yeah.

Yeah.

Serena (16:30)

So there'll be some things that I just have about an internal boundary, if that makes sense. Whereas some of those boundaries that I have will be useful for other people to know. Like you said, it might be that you say, well, so actually I have a similar one with my own dad, actually. What is it with dads? My dad actually, and he won't listen to this either, my dad expects me to call him every single day.

Sally (16:48)

Hmm.

Woo! That's a no.

Serena (17:01)

You

And that's my boundary, is that I have put a boundary in place around that. So it's like, I won't call you every day. I'm not retired, dad. I'm not just sat waiting for phone calls and chats. I'm actually working and I love you and I might drop you a message to let you know I'm okay. So he'll get a little bit upset if I don't call, but I'm bounded.

Sally (17:12)

Yeah.

Serena (17:28)

We're like, no, so, but I respect him. That's one that I communicate to him. I don't need to keep that to myself. So it's helpful for him to know that boundary so that he can still try in his own muddled way to respect that boundary that I have. Whereas there will be some that are very private. It's like a private boundary that you have for yourself that maybe nobody needs to know, but you just know that if someone oversteps that, it wouldn't feel right for you to maybe communicate that and that's okay.

Sally (17:28)

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

Serena (17:58)

but you need to have that for you. It might be for example that there's just like a red flag in a relationship that you just kind of go, well, that doesn't work for me. It's not really something I'm comfortable talking about at this time. And again, what's really coming up for me when we're speaking, and maybe I'm sure we'll kind of keep coming back around to this idea, but how do you know what your boundaries are? And you only know them through self -reflection and self -growth. Like you have to, the more time you spend on getting to know yourself.

Sally (18:01)

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Serena (18:28)

the more you will be aware of the boundaries that you hold or that you wish to hold in order to create the life that you want. Because boundaries are needed, you need boundaries to facilitate your own change as well as, we can look at this from both those perspectives, how boundaries facilitate your own change, but how in you doing that work, it also facilitates

Sally (18:36)

Yes.

Mm -hmm.

Serena (18:58)

It also, this will say, change in others around you because they will naturally adapt and shift according to the boundaries that you hold and that can be incredibly helpful.

Sally (18:58)

Yeah

Yes, it's very true actually what you said about self awareness and knowing because we only really know what boundaries we need to set when things have gone wrong or we've experienced a boundary violation, a boundary rupture, boundary overstep. And sometimes people have experienced terrible, highly traumatic boundary violations. And others, you know, they're on a, they exist on a spectrum, these ruptures.

Serena (19:20)

Yeah.

Sally (19:37)

But the more self aware you become, the more nuanced those boundaries can become as well. But it's very interesting that something came up for me actually a little while back with a friend who has very strong ideologies about certain things. And I recently saw that she'd blocked me on Facebook. I know.

Serena (20:05)

hey.

Sally (20:05)

It was really interesting. I mean, that's a boundary there, isn't it? Like blocking someone. That's a hard boundary. That's like a Fort Knox. It's like, you are not coming into my life anymore. And it was quite, it was upsetting because she hadn't said anything to me. So I don't know. Like that sort of, it's like a hanging thread in my psyche that doesn't quite understand what that's about. And interestingly, she hasn't blocked me on WhatsApp.

Serena (20:16)

Yeah.

Sally (20:36)

So there's still an invitation there to connect with her, but she doesn't want to see what I'm putting on Facebook, maybe because it's triggering her or whatever. But she has very strong ideologies about certain aspects, which I won't go into. But I do think that, and everyone's entitled to their own thoughts and feelings and beliefs and opinions, but I do question sometimes when ideologies get in the way of healthy friendships.

Serena (20:45)

Okay.

Yeah.

Sally (21:05)

you've got a really lovely friendship and you believe something very very different to that person. For example my mum's best friend is Labour and my mum is Conservative you know but they have they have a really good friendship. No politics no no no we're not going there don't worry but I actually

Serena (21:20)

six.

some real time. We are going into our general election this week so you're aware in the future people are listening to this but that's where we're at right now so it's very timely.

Sally (21:30)

Yeah.

It is very timely. And I do know I've stayed away from all those discussions on social media and I'm really proud of myself because I've not got sucked into it. That's a boundary, a personal boundary that I have at the moment. I got into it in the past. I've lost friendships over it in the past. But I do recognize, I really recognize, for me what is important is to not let those ideologies get in the way of...

Serena (21:48)

Yeah.

Sally (22:04)

of friendships if there are other qualities within that friendship that you really like. And also just to have those open discussions. A big value of mine is learning and education, which we're going to be talking about in the next episode. But I love educating myself on what people think and how they feel about certain things. It doesn't mean I'm going to take that belief on, but I'm just curious about what people think and feel. So anyway, there's a slight digression there, but I think it's

calls to your point if you don't really know what your boundaries are until you come up against something and then they're there to help you protect your nervous system, to install a sense of safety within yourself and to give you what you need so that you can create the environment or the life that you need to thrive and flourish.

Serena (22:37)

Yeah.

Mmm.

Yeah, and I think kind of looking a little bit deeper at what you've said, certainly in the work that I used to do, so one -on -one work particularly, noticing how just really, really terrible it makes you feel over time. And it can, I believe, lead to even physical manifestation and illness when you keep...

letting people in your life overstep the boundaries that you would like to uphold, but you keep letting people do it anyway. And so a lot of work, certainly my own work in the past has gone on in terms of helping people reestablish those boundaries and stay firm because it's not easy to put a boundary in place. And you alluded to that right back at the start. So it can be really

deeply challenging and because again, going back to that idea of change that we've looked at throughout the whole, you know, all of the series that we've had, change isn't easy. It's about change and so you might know with the best will in the world that, you know, I want to put this boundary in place. For example, let's take a really obvious, horrible example. You have a partner who's cheating on you.

Sally (24:04)

Hmm.

Mm -hmm.

Serena (24:16)

You may have entered that relationship saying, my boundary is that this doesn't happen in my relationship. So if you cheat on me, it's the end of our relationship. And yet they've cheated, but you're still there. So you kind of let it go and you're working through your relationship and they do it again. And you still stay and you still try and work things through. You start to then...

kind of feel bad in yourself because you are not being the change that you wish to see in the world. You are not upholding your own values. You are not standing by the boundaries that you know really means something to you and will serve you in your life. And so it's this constant chipping away of the self. This is why boundaries are so interesting.

Sally (24:52)

Yeah.

Yes, exactly and I see that so much.

Yeah.

Serena (25:11)

because it takes a huge behavioral shift in yourself to be able to actually kind of carry through and see that boundary through to the end. Knowing that, it's probably gonna feel harder before it gets better. Yeah.

Sally (25:29)

Yes, exactly. Yeah, exactly that. It really does. Especially if you've got, like, for example, if you're, I've said this example before, but if you're extremely exhausted because, if you're very exhausted by, and this happens a lot at menopause really, because of all our hormone changes, but when we're exhausted and depleted because we're saying yes to too many things.

boundaries are the exact thing that we need to do to break that cycle of people pleasing, yet we don't have the energy to do it because we're exhausted. So it's a cycle. Do you see what I mean? And so eventually you need to find your reserves from somewhere to dig really, really deep. And usually that will mean that you get support.

That's why therapy is so helpful. Having a really good friend or having an ally, someone on your side that will support you in that boundary. When you set that boundary, you know you've got someone to sort of buffer any kind of meltdown that you're going to have as a result of this. But that's what you need to do. I guess it's, I talk a lot about breaking the cycle as you do as well, I know with your clients and.

You teach people to do that, the healthcare professionals that you work with. It really is about breaking these cycles, but we do need reserves of energy to do that. But when there has been, you know, I talk about people pleasing a lot because it tends to come up with boundaries, but people pleasing is often a trauma response because we've had to placate an adult, you know, maybe we've had a narcissistic mother or father or caregiver, or we've been bullied.

We've just had to like, you know, create this facade or take on this role of, I will do whatever you need me to do to keep me safe. That worked for us when we were little, but there comes a point in adulthood where that doesn't work anymore. And it's understanding that that behavior isn't working for you and taking the risk to do something different. But they're like, you know, people pleasing is such

It's almost like a filter that we see our lives through and in order to not do it we have to kind of take the filter away and see a notice comes back to self -awareness, notice where we're doing the people pleasing in every aspect of our lives. So the noticing and the self -awareness always comes first and then the question, do I really need to do this? Do I really need to say yes to going out with my partner?

on a Friday night and a Saturday night when really all I want to do is just stay in and watch Netflix or just sit on the sofa and journal or whatever. Yeah, but it's taking that risk again, coming back to doing the uncomfortable thing.

Serena (28:37)

Yeah, I think as you're speaking, I think what would be really useful is because you've kind of gone into it there because people listening might be thinking, well, okay, I know I know I need to put boundaries in place, but how do I do that? How do I put a boundary in place? So I think if you were to kind of break it down into terms of some kind of tangible steps that people could ponder, there isn't a one size fits all. But I think for me, the first thing would be

Sally (28:51)

Yeah.

Yeah, fun.

Serena (29:07)

This is coming back to that promise that I keep saying, which is kind of to know thyself. So the more you are aware of who you are, what your true wants, desires, needs are. So it's having to cut through all the bullshit basically, because it's alluding to the things that you've just said, which is, you know, when I'm doing things, am I really doing them for me because it serves my higher self? Or am I doing it because I am dot, dot, dot.

Sally (29:23)

Yeah.

Yeah.

Serena (29:35)

fearful of the response, scared of what someone will do, scared of what someone will say, you know, why am I not putting this boundary in place when I know really it will serve me? Is it just that I'm scared of the repercussions? Is it that it just feels, going back to that idea of comfort zone, it just feels too bloody uncomfortable to put this in place. It's easier to slip into what I've always done, which is again, going back to that, like I said, that comfort zone aspect of

Sally (30:02)

Yeah.

Serena (30:03)

change isn't easy, it will always require you pushing through that comfort zone, which is turbulent and it's going to come with things that are going to make you feel really challenged and uncomfortable and unsettled. But if you have that why, that purpose in place and you kind of know really why you're doing it, that's the other bedrock to that change that you're trying to make.

Sally (30:26)

Yeah, it helps you to set the boundary with a higher sense of certainty that you're doing something, that the outcome's going to be beneficial. And even if you don't know if the outcome's going to be beneficial, you know, someone might shout at me, I might lose my relationship, God forbid. Hopefully not, because if you're setting a boundary, you're doing something for yourself and you're in a loving relationship, your partner will be able to see that you're doing it for yourself to become a better person for...

Serena (30:31)

Mm.

Yeah.

Sally (30:55)

them, you know, to bring a better version of you into that relationship. Or even if you're in a working relationship and you need to set a work boundary, hopefully your boss or coworkers will see that you need to do it to bring a better version of yourself to the work, you know, so it's, you've got that common goal. You want the work to be the best it can be. You're going to say something.

Serena (31:17)

You do. Yeah, as you're speaking, it's so interesting, isn't it? Because I've said this before on the podcast, because it's just a common kind of quote. I don't know who said it. I want to say Mayor Angelo said it, but I might be wrong. But if you put a boundary in place, someone doesn't like it, it's only because they benefited from you not having any. If you put a boundary in place and someone cares about you, respects you, really respects the relationship,

Sally (31:38)

Yeah.

Serena (31:46)

then it's their choice to actually kind of uphold that boundary with you and kind of respect the boundary that you have and work with you on that. But if they kick, you know, if they throw their toys out the pram, what is it about you having a boundary that is so difficult for them? You know, if you're being reasonable and you've just put something in place with love, a loving boundary, maybe in a relationship that you're in and someone doesn't like it,

Sally (31:55)

you

Mmm.

Serena (32:16)

I mean, I'll be so bold as to say that's not your issue. It's theirs. It's them to do the work on that boundary that you've put in place. And I just want to also say, because we're not really focused on too much on certainly the population that I work with the most, which as you said is healthcare professionals, is in that population, when people, when practitioners are helping their patients or clients change, again, this doesn't come into the work when people are looking at behaviour change, but for me, it's vital.

Sally (32:19)

Yeah.

Serena (32:46)

Because when you enter a working relationship with someone, that patient or client should still know that you have boundaries in your practice. It might be as simple as you've alluded to, and I have the same kind of boundaries in my own practice, where people sign a coaching contract when I used to do the work. This is what I expect of you, and this is what will happen if you don't do what I expect of you. So for example,

Sally (33:13)

He he he.

Serena (33:15)

One of the things I have is you have to do your homework. I've said this before. And if you don't, I can't work with you. That's my boundary. And I have stopped working with people when they've not done their homework. I have, I have. I think I may have shared this before on the podcast. Please forgive me if it's an old story, but the best one was a guy who really, really, really wants to spend more time with his family. He was a CEO. I've worked with a lot of CEOs.

Sally (33:27)

Really? Wow, yeah.

Serena (33:44)

And he, one of his troubles was he didn't have balance and he really missed out on the time he wants to spend with his two young boys and his wife. And so I gave him a homework to interview his kids about what, because he kept talking about being a team in his family. So I said, look, go in, here's a little interview schedule, which I do a lot with my clients, as you probably noticed.

Sally (33:56)

Mm -hmm.

Serena (34:09)

your kids these questions, what does team look like for you, what does family look like for you, what's your definition of that, how do we make that happen in our family, so interview them separately. The byproduct of that is he's also spending time, quality time with these kids and he wants to get to know them better. And so the next time we met I asked him how the homework went and he said, I've got my wife to do that. Right, we have an issue. Houston we have a problem.

Sally (34:24)

Yeah.

dear, no!

Yeah, okay.

Serena (34:38)

So it wasn't a one strike and you're out. We had a conversation because it's an opportunity for learning, but it happened again. And so at that point my work with him ended. He didn't want it to end, but it was a case of I cannot work with you because change is not going to happen. And my reputation in terms of my work is everything to me. I help people change, fact.

Sally (34:44)

Yeah.

Right.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Serena (35:09)

If you can't do the work, you can't do what I need you to do to make the change, this is not going to work. Done.

Sally (35:15)

Yeah, because it's not you that's making someone change. They've got to make themselves change. You're facilitating it.

Serena (35:21)

They do. Yes.

Sally (35:24)

but ultimately the work is yours and you can affect that behavior within yourself. Yeah.

Serena (35:30)

Yeah, and so this is what I encourage other practitioners to do is people should know from the outset, certainly in kind of in like a healthcare setting of your facilitating change, what will happen if they do this and what will happen if they don't, for example, and that's your boundaries, that's your practice boundary, your professional boundary. And so to explore that is really, really important. And it makes me again, Sally, we're non -parents chatting about kids, it makes me think of kids and boundaries.

Sally (35:45)

The end.

Yeah.

Serena (35:59)

We know to help children grow and learn they need boundaries. Because how do we know who we are without a boundary? You only know who you are when you come up against boundaries because it gives you an opportunity to self -reflect and define yourself in light of the boundary that's been placed. So I find that again children who don't have as many boundaries struggle to know themselves, struggle to know what they're capable of.

Sally (36:18)

Yeah.

you

Serena (36:27)

because you don't know. So we only know who we are when we come up against stuff. It's going back to that agitation that often comes up into our conversations, I think.

Sally (36:32)

Yeah.

That's right, and I think that's why there's an invitation for the person that's on the receiving end of the boundary. They're coming up against something. So there's an invitation for them to dig deep and why is this pissing me off that someone's setting a boundary? You know, I get pissed off when people don't set boundaries actually. And they set a bloody boundary. Where's your inner strength?

Serena (36:52)

Yeah.

Yeah.

I love.

Sally (37:02)

especially in relationships and my husband's now starting, he's going through a big change at the moment and he's really starting to assert himself and I am loving it because I need putting in my place, you know, like I am that person because I have such like a strong energy and I'm like, you know, very active, got a lot of energy and I'm always, come on, let's do this, let's do this.

Serena (37:12)

Alright.

So yeah.

Sally (37:30)

I will just run with it and I don't necessarily, in my relationships anyway, know, can read the other person's like energy. In my work I can. I'm a totally different person in my work, much more attuned. I think that's quite normal. When we're, and so yeah, I'm loving it. And he said something this morning. I said, do you want to come to Lidl with me? And he's like, no, I'm in a process.

Serena (37:47)

Yeah.

Sally (37:58)

I'm like, great, I love that, I will see you later.

Serena (38:04)

I love it. Yeah, there's something about, I think, again, so I'm a really boundary person and I like it when people have boundaries too. Yeah, so I relate to that. I relate to that. It's like, you know yourself and I can work with that because we all know where we stand. Yeah.

Sally (38:06)

Hahaha.

Yes.

Yes, there's nothing worse than trying to have to be psychic with someone and go, what do they mean, what do they want? Like, just be explicit with me.

Serena (38:30)

sorry. Yeah, I have no time for that shit, to be honest with you. Like, you know, when people, in relationships especially, he doesn't know that I really want this or I really needed this or... And you can translate that to any relationship. You can even be professional. I don't really know what they want. They really want me to help them. Ask them. Get some boundaries in place. This is what's going wrong, is it?

Sally (38:39)

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Serena (38:58)

you only know what you want and what you don't want because you've had a boundary placed somewhere. Boundaries kind of make everyone feel psychologically safer. You don't have to agree with someone's boundary. So again, it comes back to choice. So in the face of someone else's boundary, you can say, you know what, that doesn't serve me. I'm a serial cheater and I want to be with someone who's going to let me do that. So I'm going to go on to the next person. Thanks a lot. So, you know, obviously tongue in cheek, but...

Sally (39:04)

Yeah.

Right.

Yeah, yeah.

Serena (39:26)

You just get to do what you want in response to the boundary that's been put in place, to be honest. So, going back to who do you want to be in the world, because that is the only thing you can control.

Sally (39:31)

Absolutely, yeah.

Right, 100%, absolutely. You cannot, you cannot control other people's response as well. You can, you can, but you have the cost of that is self betrayal. Yeah, so then is that a choice that you want to make and how long can you go on doing that for before your body is gonna end up breaking down and screaming at you? Yeah.

Serena (39:41)

Who's face?

Yeah. Yeah.

And this is how it manifests in all the things we said, illness, physical illness, let alone all of the psychological mental health factors because you are...

Sally (40:06)

Yeah.

Serena (40:12)

Just not being who you want to be in the world. On a micro level and a macro level, and it's maybe filtering into, I typically find that people who do that, who aren't very boundaried, can be like that across the board in different facets of their life. It doesn't usually just manifest in one. It can, but usually you're kind of a little bit like that. Like the people pleasing aspect, for example. People are often like that, generally speaking. As an ex -people pleaser, I get that.

Sally (40:15)

Right.

off across the board.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm still, yeah, I don't know if I'm a people pleaser. I don't, definitely not as much as I used to be. I mean, my dad says, my dad's funny, he says, you're on rails. That's what he calls me. You're on rails. Like you're fixed. You won't budge. And I think that's his interpretation of my boundaries. He thinks I'm too rigid. I'm like, well, is it, is our bound? Does that mean we're rigid if we have boundaries?

That's a question to ask, isn't it?

Serena (41:12)

Well, you... Well, again, looking at all the things that we've looked at in terms of behaviour change, and I've said this many times, it's like goal setting. You get to decide whether you want that to still be the case today, tomorrow, in five years' time. So you get to change your boundaries if you want to. You'll probably find, as your boundaries relate to your values, that some of them do not ever change, because their core value will...

Sally (41:35)

Yeah.

Serena (41:39)

manifest as a core boundary if you like if there is such a thing but I expect there will be like for me you know like maybe like the cheating one for example or whatever it might be or you know a boundary in terms of how people manifest in relationships a boundary in my practice that people have to do what I ask of them I can't imagine I'm just suddenly going to think those things don't matter and yet in a relationship sometimes you find your boundaries is more of a dance because it is

Sally (41:48)

Yeah.

Hmm.

Serena (42:05)

different, it's relational, so maybe some of those things are navigated between you. And I love what I said earlier just very quickly because I know we're kind of coming to the end, but I like the idea of just being really curious as well. You know, other people's boundaries can trigger us, but even though I respect boundaries, it doesn't mean that I'm not hurt by people's boundaries.

Sally (42:10)

care.

Yeah.

Serena (42:30)

But I, like you, because I'm so deeply self -reflective, I always go to, well, that's so interesting. What is it about this boundary that's made me feel like this? That's so interesting. Yeah.

Sally (42:40)

Yeah, yeah. And it's just curious. And it's this idea of just being open to life and open to the physical, emotional sensations in your body and not labeling them as negative or bad. I mean, they are, in order to know the light, we have to know the dark. So negativity is not a dirty word either, but understanding that just because you're feeling triggered or just because you're feeling sad or emotional or...

Serena (42:47)

you

Sally (43:09)

a bit put out or your nose is a bit out of join. It's like, that's an invitation. All these things are invitations to explore deeper and to understand ourselves and to deepen relationships with people actually, to have those difficult conversations. And what you normally find is if someone's really self -aware, they will be more than happy to have, yes, a difficult conversation, but it enables depth of friendship, you know?

Serena (43:18)

Yeah.

Both. Or, yeah, or death. Because, you know, I, or death, because you might say, so I definitely had this happen a couple of years ago, a friend put a boundary in place in our relationship, and I told her I couldn't be friends with her anymore.

Sally (43:37)

and growth and you know that go on.

or death, yeah.

Hmm

Serena (43:55)

So it can also be the growth and it can be the death or something and that's okay. Again, that's being okay with this is kind of what we're coming to.

Sally (44:01)

that's okay.

Yeah.

You know, we live in an abundant universe, right? We live in a very well -connected world. So it's not the big tragedy that it used to be. Back when we were hunter -gatherers, if we lost a friend, if we pissed a friend off, we were banished. You know, we were outside the city wall. We were fucked, basically. But today you can go and meet someone else. You can find other friendships so easily, right? That we have...

Serena (44:25)

Right.

Sally (44:36)

There are plenty of fish in the sea!

Serena (44:40)

That's such a positive funny note to end on. If you're losing a friend, go get yourself another one.

Sally (44:42)

Hahaha.

Go get another one. But I didn't want to end there. I want to talk quickly.

Serena (44:49)

you do? Okay, what else do you want to say? Go on.

Sally (44:53)

I want to talk quickly about can we be too boundary -rid because I think that's such an important convo.

Serena (44:57)

That is a really good thing actually. Yeah. Did you want to speak to that?

Sally (45:01)

Yeah. Yeah. So, we live in a world where consent is everything at the moment, don't we? You know, you've got, you've got a sign for consent, consent everywhere, which is really good. And I think it's, it's good, but can we sometimes take consent too far? And

I think especially within the woke generation, there is this idea of just consenting absolutely everything. And I think we can become frightened of asking. I think we can get consent overload where we're just always requesting consent for every single action that we want to try and take. And I wonder how much of that.

can get in the way of just natural connection and natural flow between two people. We're having now. If I was really worried about consent or worried about saying the wrong thing, I might be self -screening or self, what's that word that Africa Brooke uses? Self -monitoring too much and not able to just exist in that lovely, beautiful free flow of conversation.

Serena (46:11)

Right.

Mmm.

Sally (46:20)

constantly worried about being politically correct. And I think it adds to anxiety because it forces us back up into our heads and disconnects us from our body in a way, and those just those bodily sensations of love and connection and all of that. So I do worry sometimes about hyper boundaries and setting boundaries, like too many boundaries for too much of the time, for too many different things.

Yeah.

Serena (46:52)

Yeah, I think it's an interesting conversation. It's kind of, when you describe it in the way that you do it's straying into something greater than just boundaries then, isn't it? Because for me, kind of what I've hopefully alluded to throughout this conversation is one of the core kind of behaviors, I think, that you should always bring to the conversation around boundaries is that curiosity.

So you can have a boundary, but I think it's still your job really is to still stay curious about where someone else is coming from when they put one in place. So even if, even, I know it's a horrible example, isn't it, why it even came into my head? Because it was so stark, like people often say about cheating in a relationship.

Sally (47:23)

Yeah.

Yeah.

I'm sorry.

Mmm.

Serena (47:45)

You are fully within your rights to have someone do that and go, I'm bounded, I'm done, I'm walking away. You are absolutely within your rights to do that. And yet you could also say, it can be your boundary, but even just enter a conversation with curiosity about why that person did what they did. You don't know what that could open up. Then after that conversation and that indulging of understanding where someone is coming from.

you can still have that boundary in place and want to keep that as, you know, I do want to leave the relationship. Or you might actually, because you'll find that people want the curiosity has been opened up about why someone has done what they've done. It doesn't have to be as horrible as doing what I've said, but just why someone has done something that's crossed a boundary in your relationship, that it can open up a really beautiful conversation where you understand where someone is coming from, you understand the role that you played in that dynamic.

Sally (48:29)

Hmm...

Yeah.

Serena (48:37)

you both together look at the growth. But again, the difference there is you also rely on that other person to have the same curiosity. It comes back to that curiosity. And so I totally agree that as you look at how that can manifest in the world today, where someone has a boundary for absolutely everything, if you just think about that on a practical level, imagine something in a field and putting a boundary in place on one side of you, and then another.

Sally (48:44)

Yeah, same level of self -knowledge.

Yeah.

Serena (49:06)

and then another and then another behind you and you keep going. You've locked yourself in a prison. You've locked yourself in a prison where you can't function. So I do think you're right. It's important to know your boundaries, but it's also important to know your stretch points and to retain the curiosity around other people's behavior and why they do what they do as well. And so it becomes more of a dance because

Sally (49:11)

Yeah, exactly.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Serena (49:35)

So yeah, I mean that's, I don't know what do you think?

Sally (49:38)

Yeah, that analogy was so good. And I think we can really fence ourselves in and really block ourselves in when we're just too rigid about certain things. And unfortunately, I don't have an example. And I know there are some, for example, a friend of mine does like sexuality workshops and she will invite couples into her workshops. So there's multiple couples and they're doing stuff, right?

Serena (49:59)

Mmm.

I am.

Sally (50:06)

So there has to be bound strong boundaries in place. There really does. So that's one example, which is where you want quite high levels of consent. I guess it depends on context as well.

Serena (50:20)

You want to, are you happy to tell people whereabouts you live in the country? You don't have to.

Sally (50:24)

Yeah, yeah, of course I live in Brighton, so they...

Serena (50:27)

There you go, so I think that says everything.

Sally (50:30)

It's ours, doesn't it?

Serena (50:32)

If I didn't know you lived there you'd said that and be like, she's from Brighton. It's where all the kooky stuff happens.

Sally (50:35)

boy, it really does.

Honestly, there's so much. I mean, kink workshops, dominatrix workshops, like you can literally learn any, have you heard of Shabari Healing?

Serena (50:54)

No, what is that?

Sally (50:55)

It's like, it's rope work. So you literally, you can have it as a therapy. So you can go to this person who will tie you up in all these like ornate rope things, take photographs of you and stuff, but you're just like, but you're sort of hanging, you're hanging from the ceiling. And it's this idea of the therapeutic aspect is the surrender. So it can be quite uncomfortable and you have to have a lot of trust in your practitioner.

Serena (51:05)

Thanks.

No!

Sally (51:25)

Yeah, I did, I fancied it a couple of times actually. I thought, that'd be quite good.

Serena (51:29)

I need to have words. This is... God, you... that's some... Yeah, I'm gonna keep my opinions to myself and that'll be okay. No, no, no. I did. Okay, fair enough.

Sally (51:40)

You did say be curious.

Yeah, no, it's just, I mean, I don't know if I do it now, but it's for things like, if you want to practice surrendering control, like people who are highly controlled and stuff might want to do something like that just to learn how to let go and put their trust in other people. So, but yeah, all right. What a place to end.

Serena (51:56)

Yeah.

Mm -hmm.

Bye. Yeah, that certainly is the case. Thank you for listening. Thank you if you come back after that. No, it's been a really great discussion. Again, I think, if you're interested to know, I think what people think about that one, I'd love to hear what other people think about putting boundaries in place and maybe you have stories that you'd like to share about things that you found really challenging.

Or maybe you just have some more specific questions around what that would look like in practice as well, which I'm happy to talk to as well.

Sally (52:40)

Yeah, absolutely. And I should say as well, in the show notes, there'll be, I guess it's a link, it says send a message and you can actually send us a message and if you send us a message that way, we can read it out on the next episode. So that might be a nice way for us to interact with people who are listening. Yeah.

Serena (52:44)

for him.

I'd love that. I'd like that a lot. Yes, please. I do get people to DM me on Instagram, but that would be very exciting to get some more questions through there. Bye. See you then. Bye.

Sally (53:02)

Yeah!

Yeah, awesome. All right, folks, we'll see you next time. Bye.