S3/E5 The Role Our Identities Play in Behaviour Change

In this conversation, we discuss the topic of identity and its connection to behavior change. We explore how our identities shape our behaviors and how re-defining our identity can be a powerful catalyst to experiencing the change we want in our lives.  We also chat about the challenges of shifting identity and the importance of surrounding ourselves with supportive communities.  Finally we highlight the role of therapy and coaching in helping individuals navigate the process of identity transformation... and so much more! 

If you're ready to get all the information you need to make powerful changes in your life and also help those you work with, this episode is for you. 

Serena’s Links
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/serenapsychologist/
Website: https://thepsychologyschool.co/

Sally’s Links
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sallygarozzomindmentor/
Website: https://www.sallygarozzo.com

Transcript

Sally (01:23)

Hi everyone, welcome to episode number five, season three, What the Bleepies Behaviour Changed. So we were just having a little mad moment before we stepped onto today's episode.

Serena (01:37)

We're not. Liar.

Sally (01:41)

We were clearly defining our identity through play, through improvisation. So today's episode is all about identity. yeah, identity for me really is about how we define ourselves and who we think we are. Who the hell do you think you are? Who do you think you are, Serena?

Serena (02:04)

my gosh, Deepen, you always throw me in right at the deep end with your first questions. Yeah, we want to look at identity. Can I do a politician's answer and just say, first of all, why we want to look at identity? Because people might wonder why it's part of behavior change. So I want you to the politician's thing of not answering your question and answering the question I want to answer.

Sally (02:11)

throw you under the bus.

You do it, girl.

Serena (02:28)

I don't think it's again, it's one of those topics that we've chosen to cover that people don't typically associate with behaviour change. Why would you look at identity when you're at behaviour change? And yet this is again why psychology informs the basis of behaviour change. It's why looking at just the tools that we can use to change someone's behaviour are only part of the story.

Actually understanding psychology and how someone thinks and feels and behaves first and foremost sets the foundation to understand what's really going on and identity is a part of understanding that. So if you just, if I give you a hypothetical example you'll know where we're coming from in this conversation.

If, for example, you are someone who is facilitating someone else's change, and for example, they have come to you because they want to do something like stop smoking, hypothetically, which is a very common thing that in the health industry, people may want to change or the health space, I should say. What you'll find is for some of those people that are struggling, part of their struggle, part of what's informing the struggle is that they over identify with being

a smoker. So their identity is, am a smoker. This is, and this is one of the challenges is, it goes back to what you've said, which is that definition of the self. It's who, know, it's like identity is how you perceive yourself to be. What is your identity of yourself? And so if that is something that is very entrenched in your psyche, the change becomes harder.

because you're trying to change something on such a deep level. It's not just now this thing that you do, it is who you are. And trying to change that is going to be, it's not impossible, it's just the challenge I would say is greater than. Yeah.

Sally (04:31)

It's deeper, it's deep work. Yeah, and my Instagram bio actually says, symptoms plus deep work equals transformation. And I think it's so true. And I think we forget that behavior change and any kind of change, any kind of transformation requires going deep. We have to go deep. We have to go into the psychology, into the emotion, into who you are, into...

what you resonate with, what you don't resonate with, what your preferences are, how you're raised will inform your identity. And identity, I think, feels very unconscious until we bring it to the conscious.

Serena (05:16)

Yeah, you're so right. It's when you're working with someone so therapeutically or in a coaching capacity, there's real power in opening up someone's own observation and own thoughts around how they perceive themselves. how do they view themselves? What do they think of themselves? Who are they in the world? And so like you said, a lot of that just goes...

It's not something that you think on a daily basis. Who am I in the world? Well, you will if you're like me. Yeah, lot of people that are probably listening to this, like we're preaching to the converted here. But yeah, know, constantly thinking about the impact that I have in the world and who I am and how I show up. But for a lot of people, and it's not, again, although we think those things, it's not something that's...

Sally (05:49)

I mean, I was thinking that, I think about that all the time.

Serena (06:11)

apparent in every single moment of the waking day. And so to bring attention, bring our own attention to that can be a very powerful thing and it can lead to transformation and can lead to shift. But the point being is part of the journey of change is unlocking that sense of identity. What part of the self, for example, are you over identifying with?

Sally (06:39)

Right, so there's the over -identification with, you know, can be anything. Academics typically can over -identify with thinking and over -identify with, and that can stop them coming out of their head and into their body, for example, and being more playful and lighter. I know that's not you, Serena, because you have that lovely balance between mind and body, right? You've spotted it. But you seem to have spotted

Serena (07:03)

Really not. Probably shouldn't be an academic. Probably shouldn't be an academic, but anyway we won't go there today. We won't dissect that. Yeah, well, I'm in good company.

Sally (07:08)

Say again.

You're a rebel academic!

Yeah, absolutely. And I'm such a rebel that I'm not even an academic.

But yeah, actually that makes me think of Gretchen Rubin's Four Tendencies and the rebel tendency is the one that uses identity or uses that rebel identity to keep them stuck in some of their unhelpful patterns because they really over identify with the rebel. It's like they might be doing things that are rebellious like smoking or whatever. And because they're so identified with that as a rebellious

thing and also being rebellious within themselves, they won't change it even though they want to because they know cognitively they need to, but they can't because it's embedded within that rebel nature.

Serena (08:07)

I what you're saying there, one of the key components to pick up on is just how difficult it is to shift something when it becomes a part of your identity. When something is entrenched enough to be part of what you identify with, it's now working at quite a deep psychological level. And so all you need to do is think about things like...

you know, maybe things like what you did when you were younger. If you're part of a sports team, did you identify as one of the members of that team? Are you part of a particular church or other religious body? So you, that's part of your identity. These are really deep seated psychological identifications that we hold that, that will

Sally (08:56)

Mm -hmm.

Serena (08:59)

then change how you see the world, how you interact with the world and how you respond to things yourself. So these are parts of the self that are very, very entrenched and work both in our favor, obviously, but can also work against us when we're trying to change something with what we're obviously what we're focused on in the podcast.

Sally (09:22)

Yeah, and it made me think of this idea of having like a broad identity spectrum and a narrower identity spectrum. When we've got a broad, when we identify with lots and lots of things, I think it could be more helpful. I always think of, you know, X Factor. I don't watch it anymore. I don't even think it's on anymore. the competitors would be interviewed and they would say things like,

If I don't get through to the next round, my life is over. And I would be like thinking, is it though? Is your life really gonna be over? But clearly they were so identified with their role as a singer or their dream or their vision as a singer. And maybe they didn't have anything else that they were identified with. Whereas if you get someone who identifies with singing, maybe they go to church, maybe

have other clubs that they belong to, they play sports, they have a family. There's lots of different things that they identify with. If one of those components, for whatever reason, crumbles or folds or doesn't happen or the outcome that they want doesn't happen, their whole identity is not pinned on that one thing. They have that almost like that identity flexibility. They can bounce from one thing to another.

And it made me, actually when I was planning for this episode, it made me realize why sometimes I can have a bit of a freak out if my work's not happening as I want it to, or if I'm not as busy as I want to be, or if there's just something not quite happening in my business, it can, and it has done, not so much recently, but has had like a real psychological impact. And I think that's because

I probably overly identify with work and being a therapist and a helper and don't identify enough in some of the other aspects of my life, like social connections and hobbies and things like that. But I think when you're self -employed, that tends to happen actually because of all of the, you know, you're the one that's making it all happen. don't have, you know, you're not given clients on a platter. You have to go and find them.

work you know. So that's my two pennies worth.

Serena (11:40)

Yeah. Out of your identity, would you say that at least started then identity that you're working on then that you're trying to change? Is that alluded to the business size? I'm just wondering whether that's something that you're trying to that you're actively kind of working on.

Sally (11:55)

I am, I'm

I am trying to change. I am trying to become a little bit more active in the community. I don't know how yet, but it's something that I would like to, it's something that I've never really identified with because I've always been such a lone wolf, such an only child, know, carried the burden. So many different like, isms, I suppose, being a woman as well, you carry the burden.

And also not having children, there's that whole thing of, I'm not like anyone else, so I'll just sort of isolate myself. But also if I do go and find other people that don't have children, I don't just want to talk about being childless all the time. it's kind of like, it's been difficult to expand out of the self -imposed role that I've put myself in, but I am becoming much more aware that it's, I would like to be more of a kind of social team player.

I think that would be really good for me. It would be good for my relationships. It would be good for my relationship with my parents. It would be good for my mental health. And I do have a lot to give as well. I have a lot of insights and wisdom and knowledge that I think would be really nice. But I'm also really mindful as well

of giving too much and also how when you do have a lot like this, when you go out into the community, sometimes that can be abused. You know, and I don't know about you, Serena, but I've been in situations, I was in a situation actually at the weekend where a woman got chatting to us. And you know, you can sense when someone's a therapist or something, but right from the word go, there was just no filter.

no stopping and it was just a barrage of too much information for about an hour.

Serena (13:58)

From this woman to you.

Sally (14:00)

Yeah, me and my husband, because he's obviously in mental health as well. So it's like, God, God, this is like, sometimes what it can be like when you open yourself up and when people know who you are, they don't really have any sense of boundary. And obviously, you want to be polite and you want to engage in conversation, but you also don't, you know, you also feeling like your energy reserves being depleted. So that was a really interesting

actually and sort of made me think maybe not humans maybe animals.

Serena (14:36)

See, think the psychologist in me wants to start digging about you there and go, who are you being in that interaction that allows her to feel like she can? There's something that you're doing that is the catalyst, because you probably wouldn't do that with everyone.

Sally (14:51)

Well, was right from the get -go though. We had a dog and we were like, you know, giving the dog a lot of attention. Yeah.

Serena (14:55)

okay. I know. Yeah. Yeah. Okay.

Sally (15:02)

And I think in giving the dog a lot of attention, we just melted and opened ourselves up and we couldn't quite put the boundary back.

Serena (15:10)

Yeah, okay. Yeah, so there was something that opened up that interaction. Yeah, yeah, I can fall for that when it comes to dogs, especially.

Sally (15:16)

Anyway.

Yeah, I'm gone. That's me. I've disappeared. Everything's just, all my boundaries have gone.

Serena (15:27)

Yeah. So, so what I mean, what would be useful, I think, is to talk about because something that people might be wondering is, again, if they're maybe trying to change something themselves, how they might go about changing that if it's a part of their identity that they'd like to shift. And obviously it links to behavior change. So typically, when you look at this under a microscope is usually when you would want to actually actively change something.

So say for example, smoking, I just keep using that because it's just a really big obvious one. Or weight is another one. So people often overly identify with being, I will use the word obese for the sake of the podcast. people don't mind, it is a medical term. So, you know, when people are obese, they identify as being that way, or they might use the word fat. I am a fat person. And so, like I said before, it's really, really hard to try and shift that identity.

Sally (16:20)

Mm -hmm.

So what I would say, how I've worked with people in my practice when they've come to me with stubborn identities is helping them to understand what the alternative is and how that old identity is no longer serving them. So really going through a process of really, really picking apart. What's the role of this identity? What's it giving you? How's it keeping you stuck in your own patterns?

It's usually a protection or a way of, you know, feeling important, feeling significant, getting a certain need met. And then you can flip it on its head and go, but is it really protecting you? Is it really giving you what you think? Is it really helping you to get your needs met? Is it really making you feel important? What's it actually doing? What is this part of you actually doing? What's the cost of holding on to this? And then we sort

in a way, talk to that old identity with gratitude and a deep level of understanding. Some people want to like kind of go in and murder it or want to go in and like reject it or whatever, but it really depends on the individual how you want to approach it. Most people want to approach it with compassion and understanding. And then it's just this idea of like letting it melt away. So we do a lot. I do a lot of visualization with my clients and help them to.

sort of almost like imagine hatches in the soles of their feet and that old outdated identity is just melting away, draining away, drifting away, you know, all of that kind of hypnotic language. And then instead, now instead you are building an identity of, you know, commitment, self mastery, self efficacy, alignment with your core values and your beliefs and what you really value now is health.

Serena (18:21)

Hmm.

Sally (18:22)

you value vitality, value self -mild, you know, all the things that are really useful for people. So it's just like, it's a moment in time where you get people to see that they don't actually want that old identity. And it's a process that you take them through to get them there.

Serena (18:41)

As you're speaking, think what I'm aware of is it's again, it's very resonant of conversations we've had before. So for me, it's very much again about there's a big shift in helping someone become the observer of their actions. That's such a powerful place to be. I if you can get to that place where, and this is where often facilitation helps, it's hard to get there on your own without the challenge of someone else's questions and insight to get you to the place.

where you're clearly seeing how you're behaving and how you're showing up in the world. So you're so right in terms of that beautiful therapeutic process, all that really important work that just helps to someone to identify how that identity was created, where did it come from? So therapeutic processes help us to get to that place. Why was this version of myself constructed? Because the version that we have of ourselves is constructed.

Sally (19:23)

Yeah!

Serena (19:38)

how was that constructed and importantly, why was that constructed? And you're right with what you said about all of those lovely things that you might find when you start to do that work around, you know, a lot of this was protection or avoidance of something or fear, self -soothing, like poor self -soothing mechanisms, low resilience, which is linking back to the previous podcast. There's so many things can lead us to.

take on these identities that don't serve us, which lead to things like smoking, overeating, et cetera. So actions that serve a purpose, obviously they don't come out of nowhere, but really the struggle, the agitation arises when we realize that they're not really serving us, it's not really something we want to be doing. So I think that beautiful therapeutic process where you dig deep and you do all the work that you've said is so, so important.

Sally (20:35)

And it could be with anything, you know, for me it's a very similar process with most issues that people are coming to me with that they want to let go of. Intrusive thoughts, for example. Self -deprecating thoughts. Anxiety, depression, procrastination. Giving up vaping, that's the new one.

So any kind of like critical internal thinking. This,  sort of process is quite magical. Like when you say you take the observer, you take the observer from, well you extract it and you get them to see it very differently.

Serena (26:44)

Yeah, they're just, again, just helping someone to do that and facilitate that is so powerful. I think people underestimate. Actually, I think that what happens is two things. People either underestimate the power of having those conversations or they overestimate what psychology or therapeutic practice can actually do. It's very logical. It's a very logical process, isn't it, to get someone to that place of understanding.

Sally (27:03)

Yeah.

Serena (27:11)

And then almost what you're doing is you're presenting an option. So it has to be something that they have ownership of. It's not something that you can ever force on someone else. You can't force someone else to change. It has to be their decision. It has to be that a different version of their identity is so compelling that that is the identity that they want to step into. And also,

Sally (27:36)

Absolutely.

Serena (27:37)

Yeah, they have to see, and this is one of the key tricks with the behaviour change aspect really, is it's not just seeing it and visualising it, they have to know it's possible. It has to be tangible to them that they can get to that place. Because when you're so entrenched in an identity that's not serving you, often what you find psychologically is a different version of themselves is not

identifiable to them. It's the leap to get to this other version of that themselves is too big. So for the smoker to become a non smoker is so overwhelming to be overweight and to not be overweight is almost so far out of their reach in terms of that shift of identity that the work is helping them to get there slowly and strategically and in a way that's very measured and inspiring as well.

Sally (28:33)

Yeah, I absolutely second everything that you've said and in going through that process you might even get someone that realises that they don't want to make that change. They don't want to. Like for me, and it's quite a silly example really, but I'm at a weight now, I'm 12 stone and I've got a wardrobe that is huge and it's all my clothes fit me. Now I could...

I could lose another stone, I could lose two stone if I wanted to, but then all my clothes, and I've got some really lovely clothes, would not fit me. And I'm like, do I actually want to go out and spend all that money on a whole new wardrobe because I'm now a size 10 and not a size 14? It's like, you know what, I'm going to be happy with who I am right now because I don't want to spend all that money. Maybe if I had an unlimited budget, then yeah, maybe that would be fine, but I don't.

And that is actually like when I break it all down, I don't want to do that. So that is a barrier to change.

Serena (29:37)

It can be. It's a really interesting thing that you've identified there. I was about to say you wouldn't get them all tailored. I mean, I'm really saying that because you look beautiful the way you are, Sally. And like you said, you're alluding to being happy with where you are anyway. So that's not a change that you want to make. What's really interesting that people might find it and what I might do is be able to just put a couple of references below. But there's some really lovely research around this identity shift actually and helping people shift identity.

Sally (29:40)

Yeah.

Serena (30:06)

And what people have found in kind of more contemporary research is there's a lot of power, as I've alluded to before, in helping someone really make sense of the identity that they want to step into, because that leap can feel so big and so different to who they are. So for example, where they've done, they're not really experiments, they're, it is like an experiment really.

where they've taken groups of people who, for example, are sedentary. So they are overweight, they do want to lose weight, and part of the program that they're on is losing weight. What they find with people who struggle to lose weight, as I've said, is often they are over -identifying with being overweight. They are big, so they feel like they are obese, they're an obese person, or to use their language, I am fat.

And so what part of the process of helping someone make that shift is actually encouraging in groups for people to undertake change together. So for example, they've given people in groups who want to lose weight, they've given them group exercise. And what you find is if you are surrounded by other people that group effect basically, where you can now become an identifier with the group.

Sally (31:12)

Mm -hmm.

Serena (31:29)

who are doing the same thing. It's going back to kind of what we said at the start about kind of different groups that you might be a part of and you start to over identify with being a part of that group. If you can help someone stay within that group and then become a part of like a group exercise program where they are now doing something regularly, that it starts to change that internal narrative, that they are now relating to themselves as someone who can exercise.

And so what you're doing is you're starting in a very small way to start to chip away at the old identity that they might hold about themselves. So they've gone from someone who's being overweight to someone who exercises. And obviously what you're seeing there is that maybe that exercise was not a part of their previous way of living. And so if you can take someone into taking on a new trait or a behaviour that's associated with a new identity, and that's a really lovely way to do it. So I think what we could take from that, if we're listening,

is what things, if you want to undertake a change yourself, being really clear on what that change looks like for you is really important. What traits does someone hold when they are doing the thing that you want to do? And can you surround yourself with people that are doing it? Because... Yeah, so exactly. And so that group effect, that has an effect.

Sally (32:49)

You become the company you keep, don't you?

Serena (32:56)

It does help to change identity when you take yourself and you put yourself in a group of people who are doing the thing that you'd like to do. And we know there's all kinds of things, don't we, from different exercise groups or whatever it might be. So it's just a really lovely little nugget to take away from the research.

Sally (33:14)

Yeah, absolutely. I think it helps because it can be quite hard to envision yourself as somebody who doesn't do the old behaviour or somebody that does do the new, wanted behaviour. And we have certain characteristics that we might need to embody. And if we can't quite grasp that in our imagination, we need someone to be able to model it off.

And that's why I think that whole become the company you keep, you become the company you keep is really powerful, but also choosing and seeking out. I think that's why tribes are quite effective. So, you you've got the sobriety, there's a big sobriety movement. I've interviewed someone on my menopause podcast who's a big sobriety champion and Trinity Transformations, you know, they're a fantastic group for menopausal women to lose weight. And there will be a group.

Serena (33:52)

Hmm. Hmm.

Sally (34:12)

now, there's so many different groups out there that is available for you to join if you want to, to help you kind of understand what those characteristics are. You know, we learn through osmosis, don't we? That's how we learn as children and that's how we learn as adults, actually, really, I think. And so, yeah, if you're wanting to sort of shape shift your identity, then definitely surround yourself with people who are doing what you want.

Serena (34:40)

Yeah, and also to like you, keep talking about groups. So to find groups of people who are also making the change that you want to make, which is why if we're not going to go in, I don't think we should talk really about addiction as part of our podcast today, but addiction is an obvious place to go with this. So it's why you don't do it alone. It's why you go to a group and you learn a model through others who have made the change that you wish to make. You see

Sally (34:57)

Yeah.

Serena (35:05)

how they have shifted their identity and you get to see on a granular level what that looks like because you have to have a model to know what you're replacing that behaviour with. But you have to have an idea of what you're stepping into and to make it feel possible to surround yourself with more people who are doing it and have done it is a really important part of that identity shift.

Sally (35:29)

Yeah, and I think a big block and a barrier to that is oftentimes people are surrounded by, especially with drinking and smoking, are surrounded by other people that are doing it, that's reinforcing that. So shifting your identity might also mean letting go of some of those friendships or reducing time spent around some of those people, which again, could be super, super hard, especially if you're reliant on those people or you don't have anyone else. It's a real, you know, starting again kind

that needs to happen.

Serena (36:02)

we could do a whole podcast on that actually. In fact, we've touched upon before in a previous podcast we've got to people because it is vital. you know, I don't remember which one it was, Sally, but we definitely looked at it, you know, So part when you're making a change, it's really the people that you surround yourself with when you're making that change or a part of the process. So like you said, there'll be some people when it comes to your identity

Sally (36:14)

What, starting again? People.

Serena (36:32)

basically keep you where you are and you're right it's so much more challenging when they're not just a part of maybe social networks which is challenging enough but when it's family it's even more challenging and there may be people who don't want you to shift that identity because it means you're shining a light on them.

Sally (36:53)

Yeah, on their dissonance,

Serena (36:55)

that, all of that stuff. yeah, it's, it's again, going back to that idea of being resilient in the previous episode, there's something here about building your resilience too, because this is going to be part of the challenge in shifting your identity. It's multifaceted, but you can do it.

Sally (37:13)

You can do it if you really want it, you can do it. as with all these things, it is always easier if you do it with someone, with a coach, with a therapist, yeah, with a healthcare practitioner who can help you, know, it be all your wingman or wing woman or wing person alongside.

Serena (37:30)

Yeah, definitely get some help, don't do it alone. I mean, you can do a lot on your own, a lot. You don't have to wait for help to start making changes today. But yeah, there's a lot of power in getting the help to support you in that change as well. That's a nice place end, isn't

Sally (37:50)

It very much is. So I really hope you've enjoyed this lovely episode on identity. Again, love to know what you think, what you feel, what some of your biggest takeaways were. If you've got any questions for us, obviously reach

Serena (38:04)

Yeah, we'd love to hear them, please. And we only have one episode left of this series, so do get your thinking caps on and send us all the things that you would love for us to cover in the next series. We can ponder it.

Sally (38:18)

Woohoo! Alright folks,

Serena (38:20)

Thanks. Yes. Bye.