S3/E6 How Feelings Impact The Behaviour Change Landscape

In this conversation, we discuss the role of feelings and emotions in behavior change. We chat about the concepts of regulation and dysregulation, as well as the importance of recognizing and understanding our emotional triggers.  We also touch on the topics of resilience, state change, and the impact of co-regulation and self-regulation on our ability to navigate our feelings. Overall, our conversation highlights the significance of feelings in evaluating our experiences and making decisions. 

It's a good one!  Come on over and join us in our final episode of the series. 

Serena’s Links
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/serenapsychologist/
Website: https://thepsychologyschool.co/

Sally’s Links
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sallygarozzomindmentor/
Website: https://www.sallygarozzo.com

Transcript

Serena (05:34)

Okay, let's go. Hello, Sally, and welcome to our podcast this week. How are you, my lovely?

Sally (05:42)

I've had a right old time of it. No, I'm actually, I'm actually all right. I'm doing really well. And you know, it's that thing of sometimes think, am I,

Or am I not okay? I think I'm okay. I'm definitely not dysregulated like I was a few days ago. And I am feeling very well balanced today. I have energy, I have mental clarity, and I'm looking forward to diving into the world of feelings and emotions with you. How are you? How are you?

Serena (06:17)

Well, you've just talked a little bit about your feelings already. So I love that you've preempted the podcast and exactly what we're gonna be talking about today is fantastic. Yeah, I feel thank you. So in terms of how I'm feeling, which I like again, that we're sticking on the theme of the pod today, but I'm actually feeling really tired. So I've had one of those situations where I've just not slept very well for a few days. So hopefully during the pod and speaking to you.

will pep my brain up and I'll be able to actually formulate some sentences.

Sally (06:50)

I thought you were going to say I've had an energy drink.

Serena (06:54)

No, I'll never have those. No.

Sally (06:59)

I can't imagine you ever having those. I never have those. I honestly, they would make, they would send me over the edge an energy drink.

Serena (07:06)

I to, so when I lived in New Zealand, I drank them. There was an energy drink over there called V. It was in a little green can and I liked them when I was a student. But yeah, yeah, those days are well and truly gone, thankfully.

Sally (07:20)

No, honestly, I get the jitters with coffee. Yeah, I just can't even drink coffee. I love tea. Tea is my new go -to now with a bit of MCT oil. Give me a brain boost. Anyway, totally digressing. Let's go on to feelings. Feelings and behavior change. What are feelings?

Serena (07:30)

Love it. Anyway.

Well, we'll look at that. So this is series three, episode six. This is actually the last episode in the series for this one. Again, we decided to end this one, didn't we, by looking at feelings. Which I think a lot of people, again, when they think about feelings, it might feel like something that is just a byproduct of the process of behavior change. But actually, I think today's really important because it's great to shed a light on.

the role that they play in behaviour change. So I think it's important for us to really look at that and give it a platform of its own so that we can think about and kind of break down in our conversation today and just have a deeper look at kind of the role that they play in terms of, would say, maybe hindering our change, but also promoting it as well.

Sally (08:29)

just written down help or hinder. So we're obviously on the same. Yeah, because our feelings do, don't they? Like how we wake up in the morning and our feelings fluctuate all through the day. I don't know if you've noticed this, but you, you know, they do. I mean, if you've got any level of self -awareness, which I'm sure all of our listeners will have, you notice how you feel and you notice that also those feelings can change depending on

Serena (08:32)

love it.

Sally (08:59)

what you're watching, what you're focusing on, your mindset, how much sleep you've had, what you've been eating, who you've been talking to, if you've been isolated. So there's so many different factors that affect our feelings and our feelings really help us to evaluate our experiences. They help us to interpret the world around us. They help us to make decisions basically going forward.

And I do think that sometimes perhaps we can get stuck in a feeling and therefore make the wrong choice. But if we've got enough self -awareness, we can perhaps use that feeling to...

to help us move forward in a different direction. So if we're feeling bad, for example, we can either stay in that bad feeling and resign ourselves to that bad feeling, or we can go, you know what? I'm gonna take this bad feeling and I'm gonna go for a walk around the block and shake it off and try and change my state. And I guess state change is part of the feeling conversation as well, really.

Serena (09:48)

Yeah.

you've got more excited. Yes. State is something I get really diggy about. So, you know, it's written everywhere in all of my bios. I don't know if I need to change it actually, but I specialize in behavior change and peak performance. So as part of peak performance, a really exciting conversation I like to have with people is about changing your state and how I think

Sally (10:20)

to you. Diggy!

Serena (10:42)

What I find just interesting myself and deeply fascinating is the fact that we often, well we have more control over our state than we may perceive ourselves to actually have. So I think people, we often feel don't we, that we're at the mercy of our feelings, that our feelings are something that's happening to us. And that is because, kind of going back to your original question about our feelings,

Feelings are things that you experience, a state change that you experience internally. Whereas that would be quite different, say for example, to emotions, which are sometimes the label that we put to that or the physical manifestation of something that we're feeling. But it starts with that feeling, it starts with something that we're experiencing. And I think when something negative has happened or you're feeling that negative emotion,

Sally (11:31)

Mm

Serena (11:38)

And again, hopefully what we'll get into in the podcast is a little bit of depth around this is how we might be able to have more control over that and change it if we want to.

Sally (11:47)

Yes, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I think it's something that's really been with me because I did Anthony Robbins's Unleash the Power within many, many years ago. I would say, when was this? Yeah, I've done it twice, actually. But the first, yeah, yeah. And it was amazing. The first time I did it was amazing. And he was, he's obviously like the king of state change, isn't he? He's like, you know,

Serena (11:49)

Yeah.

Okay.

I didn't know you

Sally (12:15)

I can fire off my adrenals just like that, just by thinking about. And then obviously you've got the counter argument, which is, whoa, there Leslie, slow down and like listen to your body and don't try and manipulate too much. Don't try and get involved too much because that can be, especially if you're a woman going through menopause or you need to treat your body a little bit more delicately perhaps, or perhaps you're struggling with burnout, something like that. Maybe.

forcing or enforcing yourself to up -regulate when actually what you need to do is down -regulate, there's definitely a conversation to be had around that, listening to your body. But you I was in my late 20s, early 30s when I did that, I can't quite remember, I think it was mid to late 20s actually. So I had so much energy and it was full on, it was, you know, eight in the morning till 10, 11 at night, I think.

madness, the hours that you put into it. But it was all about being able to command your state to change in that moment. And I think I got a lot from it. I mean, it was really impactful for me and being in being able to just consciously choose to get up earlier, go for a walk around the block, install those really good habits so that I wasn't at the mercy of

grogginess or wasn't at the mercy of like lingering hangover from the day before, not an alcohol hangover, like a thought hangover. Yeah, yeah, I think it's important to realize that we do have a certain amount of will that we can assert over those, potentially those feelings that can hold us back or keep us sort of sticky.

you know, those sticky, treacle -like feelings.

Serena (14:12)

Yeah, I just want to pick up on something that I think is really, really important that you've said actually there. So I think it's really important. So what I would certainly promote, certainly in my work, is that you don't force a state just for the sake of it. And I don't really like people who, it's actually maybe a bit of a red flag for me, who are on this. This is the whole idea of toxic positivity for me.

Sally (14:38)

Yeah.

Serena (14:40)

Just because you're feeling down or depressed or low mood or anxious or tired, whatever it might be for you, just at the first hint of feeling that feeling to try and change state is not healthy in my world. you have to, I think I probably said this quite a lot in all of the series that we've done now, Sally, but wherever you are, the idea of becoming the observer, which is something I talk about all the time,

Sally (14:54)

Bye.

Serena (15:09)

We need to land there long enough to recognize something. Usually when we're feeling something, I just think there's real power in staying with whatever feeling you're feeling for long enough to know what your body is actually trying to tell you first.

Sally (15:11)

Mm -hmm.

Yeah, I totally agree with you and I think that our feelings are our friends. I think we try and maybe control and manipulate negative feelings out of us because of the world we live in and it makes more sense for us to be able to be hyperproductive and we link hyperproductivity to that hyper feeling, that positive feeling state where we can just get on, get on, get on, be productive, all of that stuff. But actually,

Serena (15:44)

class.

Sally (15:55)

We are humans, we're not robots, and we need to sink into what our feelings are trying to tell us. Because feelings, I believe feelings operate on a much slower level than the mind. So I think there's mind time and there's body time. So mind time tends to be really fast. And body time, which is where the feelings are.

tends to operate on a slower dimension. So if our mind is racing, we tend to skip over perhaps, we're not slowing down enough to be able to listen to our feelings. And our feelings are that feedback mechanism, you know, they're telling us where we are at in our lives, who we are in relationship to other people, who we are in relationship to our value system, our identity, you know, what is what we are identifying with actually right for us.

going back to all of these things. So if we're if we're bypassing them, then we're not really getting the valuable messages that feelings and emotions have for us. You know, that inner being, that inner world is what we really need to attune to and has often been what's bypassed for many people in childhood, actually. And that's what causes quite a lot of trauma. Yeah.

Serena (16:59)

Yeah.

Yeah. So I would, I might interpret that a little bit differently in terms of the fast slow. So I would say your body, the soma works quicker than the mind, I would say. So you get the body reaction, the body respond, the somatic response. We've been conditioned to listen to the mind, which means what you have to do is slow the mind down to get to the somatic, but we get to the same place in terms of how you describe it.

Sally (17:26)

Mm -hmm.

Yeah.

Serena (17:39)

you're getting to the same place which is to slow the mind down enough to tune into the intelligence that your body always has had a hold of.

Sally (17:50)

Yeah, I agree with you. think it's a slightly different framework because I think that the mind races. think that's what I'm... So it was a yogic thing. It was a yoga teacher that said that mind time is very fast and body time is very slow. So it's like your mind latches onto speed very quickly, but your body actually appreciates you slowing down. Your body prefers a slower...

Serena (17:59)

Yes.

Yeah.

Sally (18:19)

kind of pace through the day, if you like, whereas your mind prefers a faster pace. Yes, I think this, didn't explain that properly.

Serena (18:24)

Yeah, no, well, we kind of get to the same place. I wonder then, so something that you talk about a lot in the work, in your work, I think, in our conversations, is this idea of regulation. I mentioned self regulation in the past as well, I think, in something that we've looked at before. And I think regulation certainly comes into that. And it's very much aligned with the idea of changing state. So

Would you be comfortable maybe to talk a little bit about that? what does regulation look like to you maybe in your life? How do you regulate? That would be a good way.

Sally (19:01)

I love this subject. Thank you so much for asking me. I'm like, I could give you a big hug.

Serena (19:07)

Hahaha!

Sally (19:09)

So to me, there's co -regulation and there's self -regulation. So I believe that co -regulation is really like the first way that we learn to regulate. When we're born, we can't self -regulate. We don't know how to. So we need our mums and dads, our parents to help us regulate by co -regulating. So we have an adult force who knows how to regulate. And this is where problems happen. If that parent doesn't know how to regulate, they pass that on.

Serena (19:14)

Yeah.

Sally (19:39)

to the child through the nervous system patterns, through the energy actually between the parent and child. So if we don't have really good foundational co -regulating patterns, then we can often become very dysregulated as adults. And you see that a lot with anxiety and depression that those people that have those states.

often just have not had that ability to co -regulate with anyone. So they don't learn self -regulation. Now, as an adult, you can co -regulate with partners. It's a wonderful thing to have a partner that you can co -regulate with, skin -to -skin contact. When you look into each other's eyes and you breathe deeply, you begin to slow down and regulate, and it feels very wonderful and very safe.

Obviously we can't do that if we're in the supermarket and become dysregulated. Maybe one day we'll get to that level where we could just walk past the couple that are co -regulating without batting an eyelid. But self -regulating for me looks like, well, first of all, recognising that I've become dysregulated and that will usually look like

Serena (20:37)

I'm really sure, but it might look weird.

Sally (21:01)

fight, flight, freeze or fawn.

Serena (21:03)

Yeah.

What does that look like for you specifically? So when you notice and you recognise you are dysregulated, what happens to you? That might be helpful for people to...

Sally (21:15)

Yeah.

So I get dysregulated in, we all do by the way, but.

Serena (21:22)

Yeah, it's not just you, we can all kind of break this down. The only thing is actually, the reason I ask you is it's helpful thing for people to hear because one of the things I think, sorry to interrupt, is that a lot of people don't know what it is. But when it goes back to the idea of feelings, people might know that they don't feel great. And they probably on autopilot seek out what they know regulates them, but they wouldn't call it that they wouldn't have the labels for this. I think it's interesting for you to outline it.

Sally (21:35)

No.

Yeah.

Absolutely, the good old -fashioned British cup of tea. That is a regulating device, especially the sugary tea that your nan used to give you. It calms the nervous system down. Something warm, something sweet, you know, will calm the nervous system down. But this is where we can end up in other problems as well, because we can use it as a coping strategy. So regulation is essentially a coping strategy, and there are healthy and unhealthy coping strategies. So...

Serena (21:53)

Yeah

Sally (22:18)

So going back to what you were saying, so there's the fight response. So that's when the heart rate accelerates, you get into that sympathetic state and you feel like, you your jaws clenched, your fists are clenched, you're trying to defend yourself in some way. You're going on the defense or on the attack. And you see this a lot on social media. You feel it a lot when you're having an argument with someone on social media or if someone calls you out, you're like,

This is where the whole kind of keyboard warrior nature comes into it. The flight response is where you've just got to get out of there. So you can, again, you become aroused, not in a sexual way, but all your systems go up, you upregulate because you're like needing and wanting to flee. So people can get this, for example, on airplanes or that typical claustrophobia, I've got to get out of here.

and it's, yeah, it's just that sense of I've got to flee. I've got to run away. Then there's the freeze response, which is basically when you go into the parasympathetic, you shut down, your brain goes offline and it's very, it's a very kind of like frozen, fearful state. Can't get your words out. This has happened to me a few times, online.

which is not great when you're doing a live presentation, but it can kind of get to you. So how do you regulate from all of that? Well, first of all, you have to know what's happening to you. have to know that you are innately safe. So bringing yourself back to safety is really helpful either by the thoughts that you're thinking, the language in your head, just looking around you, recognizing,

Okay, there is no bear in the room. I'm not actually being chased right now by anyone. I don't really need to run away because I might feel uncomfortable. I might feel hot. For example, many people relate feeling hot to not being safe, especially when you go through menopause. It's like anxiety and hot flushes tend to be linked. But if you can go, I'm just hot, I'm safe, but I'm just hot. And being able to sit with that discomfort.

is telling your mind you don't need to kind of go anywhere. That's a way of regular, know, our thoughts that we think, using logic and rationale to tell the nervous system that nothing bad is happening. But really it's about tuning into the senses actually. So I carry a little bottle of peppermint oil around with me and lavender oil. And if I feel like I'm going too much into my head and becoming dysregulated and I'm not embodied enough,

Serena (25:03)

Mm

Sally (25:13)

I will sniff some of that peppermint oil to bring me back into the body or I might massage a part of my body, you know, or have a stretch or run up and down on the spot, do some jumping jacks just to discharge that, that sort of pent up energy, which needs to go somewhere really. Yeah, I'm going to stop there.

Serena (25:35)

Well I was going say, so the main question I had, I think that's really helpful, I think people hearing that is going really help them kind of understand what some of that might look like. But one of my key questions for you is, what does it look like for you when you are dysregulated? How do you recognise for you when you are?

Sally (25:53)

Excuse me. It usually starts...

Serena (25:55)

Obviously, it's depending on the situation, but maybe some of the key things that you recognise.

Sally (26:02)

heat in my body, accelerated heart rate. So it's body sensations that start.

Serena (26:06)

Hmm.

Yeah.

Yes.

Sally (26:14)

rather than feelings. So it's the maybe clammy palms, racing heart rate usually, those sorts of body sensations. And then, not in the stomach. So that's the solar plexus kind of doing that.

Serena (26:16)

Yeah.

Yes.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Sally (26:34)

yeah, I think those are the main things. dizziness. Dizziness. and overwhelm. Yeah. So when you're like, when you're faced with too much choice or you've got too much on your plate and you don't really know where to start that feeling of, I got too much on my shoulders.

Serena (26:39)

Yeah, okay, so light header.

Yeah.

Yeah, it's not. Yeah, it does. I will I relate to a lot of that. I also get so again, I think when people are listening, it's interesting if you can notice when it happens to you because I relate to that. So definitely the heart racing, I get very brain fogged instantly. I can't gather words, I can't pull them out from. And I see that a lot of other people like to see that they're dysregulated. So you want to recognise that as someone else.

Sally (26:56)

that make sense?

Hmm.

Yeah.

Serena (27:25)

hot face or the blood goes through my head. That's because your brain is whirring. And then it's interesting, think, depending on the situation, I think it's really interesting to notice where you go to next, which kind of then translates really to that fight, flight, freeze, fawn. So depending on the situation, is it your tendency to fawn? Is it your tendency to just want to get out?

Sally (27:28)

Yeah.

Yeah.

Serena (27:53)

I notice that one of the key things I go to is attack. Like angry, which is a fight. it can just bring out, it can actually bring out the bitch in me, so it depends on the situation.

Sally (28:00)

Yeah, the fight response, yeah.

I can get really self -righteous. I really can.

Serena (28:13)

all. Yes, it's really funny to see kind of where you go to is that depending on just the situation that you're in and what that evokes for you. And again, what's interesting, we haven't got time to break this down today. But what you probably notice is, if you can kind of notice this for yourself, it's not the same response as it keeps saying, depending on the situation that you're in is different depending on what's happened. So there'll be situations, for example, where I feel the need to attack and get kind of get

Sally (28:40)

Mm

Serena (28:41)

at someone or kind of respond. And there'll be times when I'm like, I'm out of here. I need to leave. I need to get out. I'm done. Like, yeah, I'm out. So I think recognizing that and there's power in recognizing what works for you. So like you kind of really offered some things that people might be able to do or consider because not everyone knows what to do when they get that feeling. I think one of the key things I've always given the clients I've worked with is, and it seems it's the most obvious, silly, simple thing in the

Sally (28:48)

Yeah, time out, yeah.

Serena (29:11)

whole world but it's amazing how when you're in that space you don't think of it which is literally just to if obviously if it's someone in your presence usually there's another person involved is to ask for time and space and I think the thing is is that we're not programmed to ask for what our needs have our needs be met

Sally (29:17)

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Serena (29:37)

We usually feel some of the dysregulation is exacerbated by the fact that we feel that we need to deal with it and hide the fact that we're dealing with something. was actually a real power in acknowledging, kind going back to the premise of today, which is feelings, that you are feeling something, recognizing that you're feeling this thing and be able to request to the other person that they just give you time.

Sally (29:46)

Exactly.

Serena (30:02)

to go away and just deal with that for a moment, or do you mind giving me just a moment, or can we come back to that? So just ask someone for the time and space for you to go and basically regulate, kind of get back into your body, get back into your mind, you know, the right mind is able to do. Go on.

Sally (30:09)

I think.

Yeah.

Yeah, think it plays into that cultural narrative that we have of shame around feelings and we mustn't show what we're feeling. We mustn't show a negative feeling, a dysregulated feeling because there's weakness in that. And I think the more and more we become really comfortable with the full spectrum of our feelings and

Serena (30:46)

Yeah.

Sally (30:48)

And I really deal with some of the historical narrative that's embedded into our subconscious around our own feelings. know, often I work with people whose parents bypass their feelings and I'm like, well, what does that mean to you then about your feelings? And they're like, my feelings are not important. I'm like, so how are you playing that out today? I bypass my, I reject my inner world. Well, how do you reject your inner world? I don't ask.

Serena (31:07)

Yeah.

Yeah.

Sally (31:18)

to get my needs met. And case in point, you've said that exactly right. Like we don't ask for space. We don't ask to, you know, can we slow the conversation down? Can I just, you know, go and get a glass of water or whatever? We think, and some situations are pressurized. You know, I was watching something on LinkedIn the other day. was terrifying to watch this amazing weather guy.

Serena (31:22)

Yeah.

Sally (31:45)

in Australia, he had a panic attack. Did you see that? What did you think?

Serena (31:48)

Yeah.

Yeah, he are. Well, I didn't see the whole thing. But did he didn't he say on live on having a panic attack?

Sally (31:58)

He did, he went, I'm gonna have to hand this back over, because I'm right in the middle of a panic attack, and I could see it going. I could see, I was like, yeah, been there, mate, totally know how you feel. Yeah. I mean, on my, so, I don't know if I've told you this story, but on my 40th birthday, I had four panic attacks and had to leave my own party. Yeah. Yeah, seriously, yeah. This is how I kind of got into the whole world of.

Serena (32:04)

Yeah.

Okay, okay. When did that happen to who?

Sally, you did not do this.

Sally (32:28)

Hypnotherapy and trauma informed coaching and all of that. Yeah, it was, I'd sort of started to have them before this time. And I had, know, we'd spent a lot of money. My mum, dad blessed them had spent a lot of money on this party for me. And I think I just didn't know who to be in that room because there were people from all walks of life. And I remember sitting down, eating and watching the cabaret.

And I was like, I don't feel right. So I went to the loo and just passed out basically. Yeah. Yeah. And I tried to rouse myself and go back out and then couldn't do it. And then came back into the loo again. By which time I'd got a few people to help me. And, I just, I just couldn't get my, cause I didn't have any of this knowledge.

Serena (33:06)

have got?

Yeah.

Sally (33:26)

And I just didn't know who I was. I didn't have a strong identity. didn't know I could, I don't know. I just didn't know myself. I didn't know what was happening to me. And I think it's that not knowing that really almost like makes it so much worse. Like now, if I feel faint or panicky, I can ward it off. So I know how to upregulate. So if I feel like I'm

dizzy or gonna pass out or I'm from really floppy. I know if I just stick my hands in the air and pump my fists or jump up and down, have a glass of water, I'll be fine. Just tell myself like, you know, it's all right. I can bring my senses back online really, but yeah, I do know how that feels. It's fucking horrible.

Serena (34:13)

I'm really sorry to hear that. That's really awful. And how powerful that you turn that negative experience for you into a positive to of, you know, up -level your knowledge about what this looks like and how it feels and what to do about it. Also, what's interesting is you said that you'd know what to do about it now, but my guess is that now you know yourself so much better that not only would you know what to say in the moment to not...

Sally (34:28)

Thank you.

Serena (34:43)

experience the full transition of this moment, but you wouldn't necessarily even put yourself into a situation that you know might trigger it. So, you know, in terms of social events, like knowing what you like and what you don't like and honouring that and just honouring that, the feelings that you have about not wanting to do something in the first place.

Sally (35:04)

Absolutely, I have no interest in having a big birthday party. I am not interested in it at all.

Serena (35:13)

Yeah, I had that feeling.

Sally (35:15)

And it's like, why did I think I needed to have that in the first place? You know?

Serena (35:20)

That's what I was thinking, a surprise party.

Sally (35:22)

No, no, was like, I'm going to be 40. It's going to be amazing. Everyone's going to know that I'm going to be 40. You know, all this kind of narcissistic stuff, which we've spoken about before.

Serena (35:33)

It's not narcissistic, you're not narcissistic, but you, yeah, it was a celebration. But like you said, I think what I'm hearing is you recognise that that's not something that you endure.

Sally (35:44)

not who I am. It's not, I know that's not who I am now because I've been through, I've done the work and the person who thought she wanted to have a party was an alter ego, a different, it was, it was a part of her that thought that's what you should do because that's what everyone does. It wasn't really, it was coming from a should rather than a place of really knowing myself. So yeah, you're absolutely right. Very perceptive, lovely.

Serena (35:48)

Yeah.

you

Yeah.

Yeah, I love it.

Going back to that knowing yourself though as well, I love that you kind of brought it back to that point because again, I think I've said it to people are bit sick of hearing it from me. you know, our main job in my mind is to know ourselves like the better we know ourselves, the more we can become that observer, the more powerful we are because we get to show up in the world as the person that we want to be and make the changes that we want. And actually, I just want to go back to that as we may be kind of looking at drawing the conversation to a

Sally (36:33)

Yeah.

Serena (36:42)

kind of a lovely conclusion in some ways. But I think we're talking a lot about the power of recognising emotions and sorry, I should say feelings and recognising that you might have more power over those than you recognise. In looking at that kind of for a moment longer, I think it's important to talk about when you're looking at this from a behaviour change point of view, why is important then

to maybe want to use that as a basis to change something. Because the other thing I see in my work and what people might find if they're helping someone else change is often when someone is experiencing a set of emotions or a particularly strong emotion, let's just take anxiety for example, someone might perceive that that is a reason to not do anything.

It's like now that I'm anxious about something, and I'm not talking about pathological anxiety or anxiety disorder, although the premise might be the same in that you just need a longer time to help someone with that on a deeper level. But if someone's experiencing something and they're saying, I'm so anxious, I don't want to do it, that there's a subtle conversation to have around using that to your advantage because there's something there to push through as well.

Sally (38:06)

Yeah, I agree.

Serena (38:07)

Not necessarily just settling for the emotion. Does that make sense?

Sally (38:11)

Absolutely, 100%. And I think that's what happened to me. I ended up going into a bit of a shell and ended up isolating and ended up of cordoning myself off into a safety bubble and recognizing that actually to heal, I needed to expose myself, know, go into that exposure of doing those things that actually I was quite frightened of.

Serena (38:24)

Yeah.

Sally (38:38)

So I became quite socially anxious, but I recognize now that that anxiety comes from isolation, not necessarily from the socializing. And if I choose the right people to hang out with, actually there is no social anxiety. And I feel more connected. There's a concept in Polyvagal theory called safe and social. And when you're operating from...

Serena (38:38)

Yeah.

Bye.

Sally (39:07)

you're safe and social part of your nervous system, then you are very regulated, you're co -regulating with someone, you know, and you, and all your sort of, you know, that rest and digest, everything is just balanced. There's no, you're not up -regulated, you're not down -regulated, you're just on that nice even keel, you're feeling safe and social, yeah.

Serena (39:18)

Yeah, I

Yeah, I think in saying that as well, it's a good reminder as well for all of us that, you know, as you said before earlier in the conversation, feelings are feelings, they're they're valid, first and foremost, to kind of to know yourself and to know what that particular feeling does for you in terms of the impact it has on you is something that you can and there's power in kind of recognising what that feeling does for you, first and foremost.

Sally (40:02)

Yeah.

Serena (40:04)

Taking time to kind of be with that emotion long enough to know how it's serving you or how it's not serving you is the powerful unlock that you can work on. Because it might be that there's a real tendency to not do something because of the negative feelings around that. And yet at the same time from a change perspective, you might recognise on that journey of discovery that that's something that you actually want to push through to get to the other side.

So this goes back to some of the conversations we've had before, doesn't it, doing more about breaking your routine, embracing failure, kind of pushing yourself to experience that full range of emotions so that you know yourself better. So that, you know, as we've said before, change means pushing through that comfort zone and it's not always going to feel.

Sally (40:45)

Hmm.

Yeah.

Serena (40:57)

easy, it's going to feel hard, it's going to feel challenging. So at the first sign of something feeling hard, doesn't mean we should stop. It means that we want to do.

Sally (41:05)

Right, I think we're so, we're so wired, aren't we, to run away from feelings that are difficult, uncomfortable, negative, and all of that. And we're wired to chase the nice feelings. I think that's the nature of, like you say, we are not wired for change. We're wired for comfort. Comfort is our survival mechanism.

So it's hardly surprising that we avoid change and we avoid difficult feelings. That's why we have to bring all of this stuff to the conscious mind really so that we can be aware. We can be aware of when we are perhaps avoiding discomfort for the sake of staying the same. But what kind of, I always say I love this expression, choose your suffering. What suffering would you prefer? Would you prefer the suffering of staying put?

Serena (41:40)

Hmm.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Sally (42:00)

or would you prefer the suffering required to change? It's your call. Either way, they're suffering.

Serena (42:07)

It's true, that's from Buddhism as well, isn't it? Life is suffering.

Sally (42:11)

I think so, yeah. I think it's not something I came up with. I think it was Alan de Botton.

Serena (42:17)

Okay, school of life. interesting. Well, maybe it's nice to end on that note. So I would, I would certainly say don't wait to feel like you want to change something. So change isn't always easy. You might need to feel the feelings, the true and full spectrum of feelings and emotions, which are different, which we haven't gone into today. But your joy might well be on the other side of that discomfort. And sometimes you need to feel uncomfortable to get there.

Sally (42:19)

Yeah, brilliant.

Yeah.

You do, and all your feelings are valid. Whatever they are, they are valid. So let yourself feel. You know what, actually, just finish this conversation, Graham, my partner, my husband, he's really got used to now me having an emotional meltdown. And I said...

Serena (42:50)

Yeah. Yeah.

I love it when you do this. Graham, I hate you listening.

Sally (43:10)

And he, and blessing me, says to me, what do you need? And I always say, just listen to me, just hold space. And I kind of like, he's there and his presence just enables me to go through this like complete stream of consciousness. Like it takes me about 10 minutes and I've just, I'm bawling my eyes out. You know, I've like got old pajamas on.

I've got my mascara running down my face. It's not a pretty sight, but I'm really intentionally letting those feelings out and processing them. you know, there's magic in meltdowns. We avoid having them, but I quite like a meltdown if it's held for me in the right sort of space. And it feels like such a beautiful transition when you've come out the other side. It's like, I always say it's like an emotional poo. It feels wonderful.

Serena (44:08)

I love that we're gonna end series three on that. just don't want to end there. I just want to end on that.

Sally (44:14)

We can end on that! We can end on that! Brilliant! What a great place to finish!

Serena (44:17)

I've got a t -shirt for you as well, I'd say. the best emotional poo of my life, and there we go. Well, that was series three, everyone. I think there's a lot more to say about feelings, and we might well spin that a little bit and talk about emotions in a future series. If you have liked what you've heard, we would love for you to subscribe, which is something that we don't usually remind people to do, even though it's at the end in our little blurb, if you're listening.

Sally (44:22)

Hahaha!

Serena (44:46)

And please send your questions. So we're gonna gear up for series three in another couple of months. So, that's series four, series four. So yeah, send your ideas. What would you like us to cover about behavior change? Maybe you have questions or maybe you have specific questions about things that you want to change and you would like for us to talk about that here on the podcast. So we would love to hear that. Yeah, so what you would to change. Yeah, we'd love to hear your questions and we will answer them here.

Sally (44:51)

Series four.

That'd be really good. That'd be really good.

Serena (45:15)

from a psychologist and a psychotherapist, a hypnotherapist. We will give you our views on what you can do. For now, it's been a pleasure, Sally. Thank you. Thank you everyone. And we'll see you at series four. See you on the other side.

Sally (45:21)

brilliant.

Been a pleasure, Serena, thank you, it's been amazing.

Bye!