S4/E1 What Is A Positive Mindset?

Join us in today's conversation and we explore the concept of a positive mindset, discussing its implications, complexities, and the importance of understanding growth versus fixed mindsets. We delve into the dangers of toxic positivity, the role of gratitude and reframing in nurturing a positive outlook, and how confirmation bias affects our perceptions. Our discussion also touches on the influence of our environment and upbringing on our mindset, emphasizing the need for a nuanced understanding of positivity in the context of personal experiences and challenges.

It's a great opening conversation for season 4!  Come join us!

The links that we referred to in the pod:
Rupert Sheldrake:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JKHUaNAxsTg
The Double Slit Experiment: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A9tKncAdlHQ&t=28s

Serena’s Links
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/serenapsychologist/
Website: https://thepsychologyschool.co/

Sally’s Links
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sallygarozzomindmentor/
Website: https://www.sallygarozzo.com

Transcript

Serena (00:02.368)
Hello Sally, we are back, series four.

Sally (00:06.986)
my god, I can't believe it. so, I'm actually really genuinely excited about this for so many reasons. I love the topics we've got.

Serena (00:13.356)
We sorry.

Serena (00:17.046)
Me too. We've actually got a really, really beautiful lineup of topics to discuss this series. And it's just so nice to be back and to be here having our chats again. I've missed our little chats that we have.

Sally (00:30.39)
Me too. Me too. We're now in October as well, aren't we? Like coming towards the end of October. So it's the 21st today. I feel that that's like the equinox or something. Maybe I'm wrong. I don't know.

Serena (00:44.298)
Is it? No, I don't know. I was totally relying on you for that information. That's the kind of information you bring to the table normally. But today we're going to kick off the first series with this beautiful conversation around what does it mean to have a positive mindset? And we had a chat about this series, didn't we, before we kind of compiled everything and brought it together. And we thought this was a lovely way to start the series because...

Sally (01:03.125)
Mmm.

Serena (01:12.948)
It's something that I think we talk about quite flippantly about having this positive mindset and it very, very much links to behaviour change. Especially when you consider that maybe, well let's actually break it down. What does it mean to have a positive mindset? When I say that to you, what comes to mind for you?

Sally (01:27.875)
Yeah.

Sally (01:31.31)
What comes to mind for me at first is probably this idea of optimism and being able to, is that glass half full or is your glass half full or is your glass half empty? it's definitely around optimism and being able to see if something

that, you know, because I'm reading the mindful body, which is something that you recommend in site club. And what I found super curious and super interesting was Dr. Langer's research around how we perceive stress. And. And if we perceive stress as a threat or if we perceive stress as a challenge, then our response to stress will be different.

So for me, a positive mindset is really about how we perceive those challenges that come up in our everyday life. So if we are able to perceive them as not necessarily positive, but if we can see them as not even like a good thing, mean, maybe you might be able to see it as a good thing.

Serena (02:48.939)
Hmm.

Sally (02:56.78)
But maybe if we can see them as like something that we can rise to, I think that really denotes a positivity, like a growth mindset as opposed to a fixed mindset. I think there's real links. I think there's real links with a positive mindset and a growth mindset. I mean, I wouldn't imagine that a fixed mindset could give you growth, much of it anyway.

Serena (03:24.822)
Yeah.

Sally (03:26.392)
But yeah, mean, what springs to mind for you when you hear that term positive mindset?

Serena (03:31.84)
Well, I love that you brought in the idea of growth mindset, which I think, again, a lot of people would have heard of that idea of growth mindset. So it's a concept put forward by Carol Dweck. She talked about this growth mindset and it's something that we kind of use, again, a bit like you said, a bit like the positive mindset, we use it as a phrase quite a lot. I think the thing that comes up for me is I think it's interesting to think about

the fact that some people will think they already have this or they don't. Like it goes back to what you said about that idea of being fixed versus growth. So some people I think, which is going to get a bit meta, but they, if they, if they already perceive themselves to have to be fixed in their mindset, like they will view other people as being positive of mindset, but they're not. So I think it's interesting that

Sally (04:08.387)
Hmm.

Sally (04:24.054)
Right.

Serena (04:25.888)
There are people that I definitely encounter who already kind of cut themselves off to the possibility that that's something that they could have because they don't perceive themselves as being positive.

Sally (04:39.329)
Mmm, see what you mean, yeah.

Serena (04:40.898)
Yeah. So I think it's interesting when you start to look at what it actually means to have that positive mindset and how you might acquire it. Because my belief as a psychologist is it's something that everyone can develop. And it is very much as you said, idea of this idea of growth, the growth mindset is that.

Sally (04:59.096)
So.

So it can be learnt, the positive mindset for sure. And I think there's so many benefits, isn't there, to having a positive mindset. I know for me sometimes if I'm getting sucked into a negative mindset, I don't even necessarily even realise that that's happening. But then when I catch myself, I'm like, my God, I think I've been in a funk for quite some time. I need to flick that switch.

And I do think there is like a negative bias that we can all sort of sink into, which I think I've heard it said is like a survival response so that we, you know, we are attuned to negativity, we're attuned to danger, which means that we're more likely to stay safe and protected, but it doesn't really help us thrive. So I think it's really important to perhaps recognize when we've gone in.

into that survival response, that automatic survival response, yeah, and to be able to, and I think the more you practice it, the easier it is to kind of come out of it.

Serena (05:56.033)
Yeah.

Serena (06:04.094)
Yeah, and this is actually where it does become complex. what I don't want to do, and it's really important for me in this conversation to, as I always say, to be honest about my true feelings, which is it isn't necessarily, so it's a beautiful, simple thing to acquire in terms of there are things I believe that we can all do to enhance that positivity and to feel more positive in our lives and to have and to nurture a positive mindset.

But what we mustn't do in my mind is oversimplify it. And I think for me, I don't know how quickly we're going to go into this part of the conversation, but I have issues with how flippantly it's used by people as a terminology where it has been oversimplified. And I think how that manifests is that you see so many mindset experts out there.

Sally (06:48.952)
Mm-hmm.

Serena (06:59.906)
And for me, there are so many issues with that that we really wouldn't have long enough in this podcast to talk about. We could go a little bit in on that if you want to. But for me, it's very much related to that oversimplification. Yeah, there's a lot to it. So for example, what I mean by that, just kind of speak to that for a second is,

Sally (07:07.704)
we'll give it a go.

Sally (07:18.7)
Yeah, yeah, you're right, because there's a lot to it.

Serena (07:28.532)
It's not just about saying you think yourself positive. know, because people maybe depending on their life situations, where they are, where they are in the world right now, it's easy for people in a place of luxury just to look at someone and say, have a positive mindset about that. Well, that's not realistic for that person right now. And you're not really being with them. You're not meeting them where they're at in terms of their circumstances. So there's a lot more work that has to go into that. It's not just

Sally (07:32.622)
No.

Sally (07:45.421)
Yeah.

Sally (07:53.037)
Yeah.

Sally (07:57.079)
Absolutely.

Serena (07:58.09)
Yeah, and I do think for me, and again we can go into this as deeply as you as you want to, I'd love to know your thoughts on this. I see, for me there's a lack of regulation about the use of that term and what I mean by that is I find it's usually, it can be a lot of unqualified people talking about it.

Sally (08:21.718)
Yeah, probably guilty as charged because I was kind of... Well, basically, I was raised by someone who was very much, you know, that emotional bypassing kind of quality, you know, and I think it was indicative of the time, you know, in the 1970s and 1980s, it was a very much a period of growth, wasn't it, up until the economic crash.

Serena (08:22.818)
So yeah, what are your thoughts on that?

Serena (08:29.238)
I'm not saying that you did it!

Serena (08:49.506)
Yeah.

Sally (08:52.378)
in, I don't know, 2006, whatever. And then since then, life's been getting harder and harder and harder, I think, for so many people. So actually, what we're recognising now is that you can't just sugarcoat life because there's so many nuances. And actually, this is the power of the internet, to be honest. When you go down all these rabbit holes and read a lot of books and when you in...

absorb a lot of information, you get to see how nuanced life is. Especially when you do a bit of trauma work, as I've been doing over the last year or so, delving into that kind of world of complex trauma and attachment, how attachments can go wrong and things like that. You recognise how complex the mind is, how complex the nervous system is and how actually

Serena (09:25.154)
Yeah.

Sally (09:47.854)
It's not just as simple as cut half full and cut half empty. It's not quite as binary as that. But we tend to think of the positive mindset as something as binary as that. human feelings and human emotions are complex. And sometimes we need to feel grief. Imagine saying to someone whose dad's just died, you know,

Serena (09:52.938)
No.

Sally (10:18.226)
and try and put a positive spin on it, we can't. And I think that's why we're actually quite grief illiterate in the world that we live in, because we have this kind of glossy top coat that we're sort of operating from all of the time, must be positive, must be positive, must grow, grow, grow, because that's the world that we live in. But actually sometimes anger, grief, hurt, pain is...

the appropriate emotion. And I do see this a lot in some of my clients who come and say, I had a meltdown, I cried, was basically, I was weak. And I'm like, no, that's appropriate. So that we need to work on your self-esteem with those emotions.

Serena (10:50.55)
percent.

Serena (11:01.108)
Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, and that what you're saying there as well, what that like makes me think of in relation to what I said before, pulling it together is there is this sense of this whole, the whole thing about having a positive mindset can start to leak into that toxic positivity. Like that is the panacea. It's the answer for everything. If you just had a positive mindset, it would all be okay. Which is why you see those blurry lines between

you know, mental ill health or mental health, mental wellbeing, and the more of the personal development side of positive mindset. And so I think it's, as you said, being mindful of the whole person, their whole experience, and not just seeing positive mindset as the answer to everything. It's a great thing to have and it's a great muscle to build and

Sally (11:53.358)
Yeah.

Serena (11:59.2)
to be able to draw upon that positivity when you need to. And for me, one big thing for me is this idea of reframing. So when you, you know, for example, when you feel like you're in a negative mindset, can you recognise it and can we reframe? It's a really powerful tool to pull out when you need it. But to think it's the answer to absolutely everything at all times is, it can be dangerous.

Sally (12:06.702)
Yeah.

Sally (12:13.326)
Yeah.

Sally (12:21.517)
Yeah.

Sally (12:26.446)
Yeah, and that's where I think we saw the whole sort law of attraction thing come out when The Secret came out. Everyone thought that all they had to do was just think positive. You know, they would manifest their millions and how frustrated did we get that it just didn't work?

Serena (12:32.343)
you

Serena (12:36.252)
Holy Jesus.

Serena (12:43.554)
Yeah, in fact I didn't write that in my notes when I was thinking about this episode I didn't stray into the manifesting world because it could, you're right, it does kind of lend itself to that conversation as well which is really interesting. You're right, yeah, can you just think of a hundred thousand pound cheque falling through your door? I think that was literally one of the examples given in the book, yeah. It's not worked for me yet.

Sally (13:07.212)
Yeah, yeah, it was. mean, it was... Or maybe we're not doing it right. I'm not sure. I mean, I have tried and I know people that have tried harder than me. And it's like, it's not, it's not really done anything. But you know, I am a believer in manifestation, but perhaps not in the way that the law of attraction or the kind of secret film portrayed it to be.

Serena (13:14.562)
Thank you everybody.

Sally (13:36.482)
I definitely believe in energy.

Serena (13:36.642)
So yeah, so why don't you speak to that? Because I also have beliefs in that you look worried. People can't see this if you're listening. And there's a slight difference there.

Sally (13:48.396)
Well, for me, it's about the reticulate, reticular activating system. When I discovered the reticular, when I heard about the reticular activating system, I was like, well, that explains the law of attraction to me. And so the reticular activating system is basically the part of the brain that filters out all the stuff that it doesn't think is relevant.

So it's based on what you give meaning to. So if you're giving meaning to positive, opportunity, gratitude, what's already there, what's already working in your life, then you see more of that and you train yourself to see more of that. If you give meaning to things not working well, things that are very stressful, things that are a threat,

Serena (14:38.38)
Yeah.

Sally (14:48.246)
if you're giving a lot of meaning to threat, that's what you will see more of. And so you kind of end up in the paradigm of existence that you are focused on the most. And that is, that I think is really how the algorithm tunes into us as well. Cause the algorithm is so clever and so complex that it kind of knows what you're thinking.

Serena (15:07.382)
Yeah.

Sally (15:13.1)
It's almost like a prediction machine now, actually, the algorithm. It's getting cleverer than we are. Yeah, exactly. So I also think that's why it's incredibly important to just watch your tendencies and how you're focused. I know for me, like, if I'm really... If I'm clear and I know what direction I'm going in, I feel like the algorithm supports that a lot more than if I'm confused.

Serena (15:16.918)
Yeah, it's quite surprising. Yeah, not really.

Sally (15:42.126)
conflicted, don't really know who I am, I'm not clearly defined, the algorithm sort of supports that as well and I can't find any meat in my algorithm to latch onto, it's so bizarre how it works.

Serena (15:51.72)
Mm-hmm.

Serena (15:57.058)
There's a concept in psychology that we call the confirmation bias. so you're speaking to that, is people's tendency to process information by looking for or interpreting information that is consistent with their existing beliefs. So if you believe the world to be a big, bad, ugly place, you will see that. That's the word manifesting for me. The world manifests in that manner.

Sally (16:02.421)
Yes.

Sally (16:14.275)
Right?

Serena (16:24.33)
Whereas if you look for positivity, and I think what's really beautiful is you picked up on something really tangible there, which is something that we can start to speak about maybe is how you actually nurture this for yourself and what it can do if you have a positive mindset. But things like being and nurturing that optimism and as I said, reframing. So if something bad happens, can you reframe it? How could that look if you were to try and look at this in a different way of how might that appear to you?

Sally (16:53.326)
Yeah.

Serena (16:53.37)
and what you said, that beautiful word gratitude. And we know that there's really good research around people building their awareness and gratitude journaling and being mindful. So mindful practices around what you can be grateful for. So I think they're practices that people often think are a bit woo woo and overlooked, but there's good research that's being built.

You know, we're building a good body of research, I should say, around those ideas and how they're really helping people to rewire. This is neuroplasticity in action. And as you nurture that rewiring and you focus on rewiring yourself and becoming more grateful and open, you're changing your confirmation bias. You're changing how you see the world. It starts with you. Yeah.

Sally (17:39.79)
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And I had written down confirmation bias as well. Yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely. you see it, don't you? you it's like...

Serena (17:46.402)
That's me, lovely.

Sally (17:57.356)
you favour information that confirms whatever bias you're sort of into. And this is where I think, you know, we're getting, we're getting into, things start getting a bit complex and really meta when you look at scientific evidence as well, because you're like, well, what bias are they coming from? So can you actually prove anything these days if it's all coming from a bias perspective?

Serena (18:02.582)
Yeah.

Serena (18:19.974)
that.

Sally (18:27.074)
Like trying to remove those confounders that can affect a scientific outcome must be getting harder and harder, I think, for scientists these days and researchers.

Serena (18:30.272)
Yeah.

Serena (18:38.844)
100%. It's really challenging actually. So teaching university and teaching university students is to get them, like one of my jobs when I teach is to get people, students to be critical in that way of what they're presented with. And it's a really, again, that's a muscle to build is to have that critical mindset of what you're reading, of what you're absorbing, of what you're seeing. And as you said, there's loads of really juicy stuff actually. I might try and source them.

provide some links for people around the pesky nature of statistics. And actually there's a way of actually doing all analysis in a way that confirms your hypothesis. I mean, the data was there, but there's a way of looking at it. There's a way of filtering out variables as a way of kind of doing the sums, if you like, or doing the stats that maybe lead to more of a confirmation of your original theory.

Sally (19:10.307)
Mm.

Sally (19:21.322)
Really? Wow. Yeah.

Serena (19:37.964)
So again, you have to be really critical of how things are done, how research is undertaken, how data is analyzed, because of exactly what you said. It's human nature. Yeah.

Sally (19:51.602)
Begs the question. Yeah, begs the question though. Can you actually prove anything? Because is everything, are all results?

result of how you're looking at it. I mean we're getting really quantum now aren't we? We're getting into quantum physics!

Serena (20:08.276)
I don't

good question. I love conversations like this Sally as you well know, which is obviously why we've ended up there because you do as well. I've said this probably many times on the podcast, but I certainly know just on a personal level that the more I learn, the less I know. It makes doing

Sally (20:29.398)
Right.

Serena (20:32.706)
my work sometimes a challenge on a personal level because it leads me to not want to give anyone advice about themselves because you are the master of your own destiny. Sorry, this is going off on a bit of a personal tangent really, but I don't want to interfere with your past. if however I hold something that will help you discover something within yourself that will help you, that is my job. But I don't want to, like my job is not to

Sally (20:49.358)
It's important.

Serena (21:03.275)
expert behavior change. My job is not to change you. The duality of that is really interesting. I want you to be embody who you are even more and find out who you need to be in this world even more. And that lends itself to that conversation that you've just started around, do we know anything? You know, can you prove anything? And actually, here's another tangent that's related.

Sally (21:06.19)
Ha

Sally (21:23.246)
Yeah.

Serena (21:28.886)
but I don't know if you've been watching that, amazing. So this is obviously, people will listen to this in the future and you can probably still go back and watch it if you're in the UK. But the amazing series at the moment about the solar system with Brian Cox. It's just, I just can't get enough of stuff like that. So anyway, I was watching an episode last night and he said in it, and it's the first time I've seen him say it. I'm sure he said it before many times.

Sally (21:41.738)
No, I've not been watching it. Okay.

Serena (21:55.446)
But he said something about science and how he said that. And science tells us, he said, the truth. said, but it doesn't really. But anyway, and he kind of fudged over it. And he said something like that. And I think that was his little acknowledgment of, in any place and time, we only know what we know in that moment. And so science is.

Sally (22:17.635)
Yeah.

Serena (22:20.2)
Arguably, it's a moment of truth. There are things that are tangible and measurable, but you have to still be open to possibility and you have to be open to things still changing and our knowledge growing and therefore change being that can still happen even when we think something is fixed, which actually is beautiful because it goes back to the idea of the fixed mindset.

Sally (22:35.308)
Mmm.

Sally (22:43.478)
Yeah, very true. And have you have you watched that banned TED talk by Rupert Sheldrake?

Serena (22:49.986)
no, but the fact that it's banned, I already want to see it. What is that?

Sally (22:53.978)
my God, it will blow your mind. He talks about this concept called morphic resonance. And he basically says, just like there are no certainties, with, no, it's about fixed laws. We think that the laws of the universe are fixed. And he says the laws of the universe actually change based on how you look at the universe. And so when you said the word fudged, because he uses that word fudged, says.

one of the scientists, he went to go and see one of the scientists and they were writing down some stats around gravity and they had to fudge their results to make it make sense with their understanding of gravity. And he would basically said, so you're making it convenient for you, but what if...

Serena (23:41.76)
Wow.

Sally (23:49.762)
there was a message that the universe was trying to talk to you in that way and you're ignoring it. What if there's something in that that you're ignoring? Anyway, watch it, it will blow your mind. It really has changed my attitude towards everything, yeah.

Serena (24:00.407)
wow. Yeah.

Serena (24:06.857)
I want to.

Serena (24:12.802)
Well, I mean, even, I won't again, I won't go into this, but the double slit experiment, if anyone knows anything about that, I mean, if you don't watch that and get your head around that and not think that the universe is just absolutely phenomenal, then I don't know what to say. Because scientists really don't know how it works. They don't know why. my gosh, you don't know, can't, I to see it through your eyes again. It's just.

Sally (24:30.222)
Okay, I'm gonna.

Right, I'm definitely going look at that.

Serena (24:41.026)
It's absolutely phenomenal. fact, I'll send you a link and maybe we'll put a link below for people who are interested in this. But I guess we need to pull it back for people a little bit at this point and just think about, because we have gone down a rabbit hole there.

Sally (24:49.666)
Yeah, definitely.

Sally (24:59.134)
We have, we have, but so let's pull it back. So we were talking about positive mindset, weren't we? And I suppose it falls down to the question, you what do you want to experience? So we've alluded to the fact that you can basically experience whatever you want, that nothing is set in stone. Laws of the universe change, you change, your perception changes.

Serena (25:05.473)
Yeah.

Serena (25:16.108)
Yeah.

Sally (25:25.122)
So if you want to experience life through a positive lens, maybe there are things that you can do to help that.

Serena (25:25.263)
out.

Serena (25:32.084)
Yeah, which we've kind of touched upon really. So again, kind of building that gratitude practice. Can you do things where you actually build on that in some way? It can just literally be. It's not rocket science. It's as simple as every day. And I've encouraged a lot of my own clients to do this. Literally just the noticing of three things that you're grateful for that day. That can actually help. And we know from the research, as simple as it sounds,

Sally (25:39.928)
Yeah.

Serena (26:00.478)
It helps you start to do that reframing that I've talked about a few times. So it helps you start to actively look for positives in your day and that helps you start to reframe how you're seeing your life, the lens through which you see your life. It can be that really small micro change that you can start to build.

Sally (26:16.43)
Yeah.

Sally (26:20.462)
Yeah, I like to shift, I thinking about this this morning, to replace the word should with already. So, I should be doing this. no, actually, I'm already doing this. Because when you look at your life, you can kind of see that you are already doing the thing. I mean, this might not be applicable to everyone, but for me, this was really empowering. I was like, I should exercise more.

Serena (26:28.841)
Okay.

Serena (26:34.988)
Yeah.

Serena (26:45.675)
Nope.

Sally (26:50.19)
I'm already exercising quite enough or I should eat more healthy. Actually I'm already eating pretty healthy because I think that if we're talking about behavior change and we want to change certain aspects of ourselves, it's much easier to change when we feel good, when we feel positive, when we can look back and go, I've already made some changes. What changes have I already made? Rather than piling on the shoulds and the... because shoulds feel quite heavy.

Serena (27:06.156)
Yeah.

Serena (27:12.119)
Yeah.

Serena (27:15.745)
Yeah.

Sally (27:19.448)
don't they? And it's like almost like wading through tree core and nobody wants to do that. Yeah.

Serena (27:24.906)
I have a different one, so I also have an issue with the word should, funnily enough. I actually change it to I get to. So instead of saying, like you said, I should exercise, it's like I get to exercise. How lucky am I that I have the opportunity and the ability, I don't have any issues with my body, I have a gym.

Sally (27:29.568)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, the toughie, isn't it?

Sally (27:36.664)
I love that.

Sally (27:44.387)
Yeah.

Serena (27:53.548)
you know, I get to do that. It's a reframe. Yeah, it's a total reframe. And like you with the healthy eating, it's not, should eat that. It's like, I get to, I'm so lucky that I have access to these foods. get to do that. So for me that, yeah, that is, yeah, I agree with the word should. And so that lovely reframing again. And it's interesting that when I say that, that I get to, it links back to what I said about the issues around positive mindset because

Sally (27:53.89)
Lucky you.

Sally (28:10.732)
Yeah.

Serena (28:22.706)
I get to do that. I get to reframe, but there'll be people that are in situations where they don't get to because they can't just be positive about the fact that they've got no food. So I think again, just going back to things important for me just to really convey that a positive mindset is beautiful and it does so much for you in terms of kind of enhancing your wellbeing, maybe even leading to better quality of life, building your

Sally (28:34.636)
Yeah. Yeah.

Serena (28:52.002)
Self-belief, your self-compassion, allowing you to be more mindful and showing up more mindfully in your life. There's so many benefits, it can enhance your relationships, all of those things. And yet, we mustn't over-simplify it and think it's the answer to absolutely everything. And depending on your circumstances, where you are in the world, what you have access to, this isn't going to be as easy for a lot of people.

And it's not the answer to everything. If you've been through trauma, this is going into some of your work, it's not just about having a positive mindset about that. There's work to be done before that. And that's why, again, there's blurry lines around who should be working with people in the area of mindset.

Sally (29:21.741)
Yeah.

Sally (29:39.054)
Well, it makes me think about how we change as well. we need foundations in place, and one of those foundations is safety or a feeling of safety. And if you don't feel safe because you're not able to get a need met, a fundamental need met, then it's going to be really hard for you to have a positive mindset because you're going to be more in that survival mode. And you need to be in that survival mode.

Serena (29:52.352)
Yeah.

Serena (30:07.968)
Yeah.

Sally (30:08.426)
in those situations where you're not safe. So we mustn't discount the sort of threat response or the negative bias response. Like sometimes we need that. And we're not bad or wrong if we can't get ourselves out of a funk, if there's basic needs that are not being met. We need to try and meet those needs first, yeah.

Serena (30:11.295)
Yeah.

Serena (30:35.202)
And this definitely comes from something we've not gone into today, which is fine, but you know, often we know that that positive mindset is, it's an awful lot to do. And you've alluded to it a little bit today around how you were raised. So, you know, where did your brain, in what petri dish did your brain and your self-development grow? Where was that? How did that happen? Did your parents have a positive mindset? How did they go about instilling that in you? Is it something you've had to,

Sally (30:48.535)
Yeah.

Serena (31:05.692)
kind of develop all on your own as you've aged, as you've gotten older. Are you surrounding yourself, which we're going to talk about in an upcoming podcast around connection, but are you surrounding yourself with other people with a positive mindset or are they also part of your confirmation bias because you seek out other people who think like you? So yeah, there are so many things that contribute to that. so

Sally (31:26.542)
Yeah.

Serena (31:32.33)
Yeah, again, going back to that being mindful of maybe who you spend your time with and what you want, and what you said, what do you really want? What do you want your life to look and feel like? And maybe you can take, depending on where you are, you can take back some of that control and start to make that happen for yourself.

Sally (31:36.686)
Definitely.

Yeah.

Sally (31:47.51)
Yeah, I really agree and I always come back to the Victor Frankel book, you know, he was in the concentration camps and even in the most abhorrent human situation, he was able to find some kind of light within that. And I always do think to myself, OK, I know things can be bad and your anger or hurt is justified or your feelings of threat are justified.

Serena (32:11.842)
Thank

Sally (32:13.42)
But I wonder if we can take inspiration from stories like that where people have dug so deep into the human psyche and really been able to pull out just a tiny teeny thread of hope or something to be able to shift their trajectory so that they can start seeing, know, plugging into that different algorithm to see the what's possible really. So yeah, what a great conversation, Serena. I've loved it.

Serena (32:26.166)
Yeah.

Serena (32:34.315)
Hmm.

Serena (32:40.436)
I think that's a lovely comment then. Yeah, thank you. Me too, Sally. And I wondered, I just wanted to introduce a new little spot every week. So as we had the conversation, I thought it'd be really lovely if we both thought about something that we've taken away and something that we might actually look to change based on what we've talked about. So I'm totally putting you on the spot, but is there anything that you think you might do?

Sally (32:48.078)
Okay?

Sally (32:57.293)
Yeah.

Serena (33:07.522)
differently, so something you're going to change. I want to know about change. So what might you change as a result of this conversation today?

Sally (33:11.287)
Yeah.

I think for me, and I was pondering this this morning actually, I think as a result of planning for this episode, I thought to myself, yeah, I do get bit negative sometimes, especially the last week has been a tough week, to be honest. I'm coming out of it now, but I think for me, it's that what I said before, the word already versus the word should.

Serena (33:21.762)
Sally (33:42.572)
So it's for me looking at where my life is already good. You I already have great relationships with people. I already have strong connections. I already feel like my life is moving forward. There's already stuff in the diary. I don't have to stress too much about what to do. It's like, it's gonna happen naturally. So instead of like...

Serena (34:08.448)
Yeah.

Sally (34:10.558)
stressing that it's all on me and I've got to be the one that makes all these changes and that's really stressful and I hate it, which is where my mind goes, to go you know it's just gonna happen like you could just let go in all of that and that will flick the switch for me from the negative to the positive like the whole kind of letting go thing. So that's my biggest takeaway from this, what about you lovely?

Serena (34:37.867)
Well actually I'm gonna do I think I want to do something more tangible I've not kept a gratitude journal in over over a couple of years and I think it's for me it's something really tangible to do and I've given it to a lot of my clients I've done it myself in the past but I think I'd be interested to know if I take it up again how I might start to see the world and how I will start to

maybe feed off of that positive lens that I'm giving myself to look at things with. Because actually at the moment I'm getting into bed exhausted every night and I'm not thinking about what I'm waiting for at all. So just to mindfully reintroduce that I think, I've been curious to know what that could do for me at the minute because I know it has benefit. So I'm curious, I'm going to do that, I'm going have a go and I'll let you know how it goes.

Sally (35:17.869)
Right.

Sally (35:26.338)
Yeah.

Sally (35:30.456)
That sounds like a really worthy thing and something that I want to copy as well.

we can do that and also it made me think it's an excuse for you to buy another journal!

Serena (35:45.058)
don't, I don't need any excuses for those. Do know I've got about four beautiful, you know those 365 day journals? They're really beautiful. They're like linen, yeah. Yes, I'm gonna grab one of those and start. So yes, any excuse, Sally, to get a notebook. I'm so sad. thank you so much for this conversation. It's been absolutely delightful and...

Sally (35:53.495)
Yeah.

Sally (36:02.732)
Hahaha

Serena (36:12.13)
Yeah, we'll check in with each other on that. And I look forward to seeing you for our next chat.

Sally (36:16.579)
See you later everyone!

Serena (36:18.831)
So bye!