S4/E2 Why Play and Playfulness Is A Worthwhile Persuit

In our conversation today we explore the multifaceted concept of play, emphasizing its significance in human development, behavior change, and adult life. We discuss how play is often overlooked in adulthood, despite its benefits for learning, connection, and emotional well-being.  Our chat highlights the individual nature of play, the importance of a playful attitude, and the potential for play to foster positive relationships and personal growth.   We also discuss play's connection to vulnerability, shame, and ego and how it generates creativity, emotional regulation, and life satisfaction.     We really hope you'll join us inside this FUN conversation. 

Links to studies mentioned:
 
Fong et al (2015):
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/17439760.2014.967799?scroll=top&needAccess=true

Link to Swann et al (2012): https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1469029212000660

Serena’s Links
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/serenapsychologist/
Website: https://thepsychologyschool.co/

Sally’s Links
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sallygarozzomindmentor/
Website: https://www.sallygarozzo.com

Transcript

Serena (00:13.326)
Hello Sally. Hello Sally, how are you today?

Sally (00:13.409)
Alright my love... Start again, sorry! god!

Sally (00:24.255)
hello, my love. I'm super well. I just, yeah, as I've said before, I'm really excited about these topics that we've chosen. And I'm particularly excited about talking about play and learning from you, the master of play.

Serena (00:40.654)
Yeah, I can't lie. As you said, I'm the same as you love the topics that we've got in this series. So we looked at positive mindset before and today we're following with play, which as you alluded to something very dear to my heart. Play is fundamental to us as human beings. And when it comes to behavior change, I think it's definitely overlooked. In fact, as far as I know,

I'm the only person that tackles it head on when it comes to behavior change. I'm sure there are other people out there that I need to find and embrace and connect with. Play is so deeply important to me in my work. I think I've said this before on the podcast that I've thought in the past about just having my whole business be focused on it. Like being a play expert when it comes to behavior change.

And for me, it's just so fundamental to our development as human beings, which I won't go straight away into that kind of spiel, because I'm sure I'll bore you with it for such a long time. But when we talk about play, what I'm interested to know from you, I guess, straight away is when I say to you play, what comes to mind for you? Because I think it's great if you give your view, because so many people I know, when they hear the word play, they find it really confronting.

Sally (01:41.197)
Mm-hmm.

Sally (01:51.469)
Yeah.

Okay.

Sally (02:00.439)
Yeah. Yeah.

Serena (02:01.39)
And so what does it mean to you? Maybe because you can see I love it, but do you?

Sally (02:06.155)
I do love play. have in my menopausal years become, I wouldn't say more serious, but play has changed. Like the idea of how to play has changed for me a lot more because I've been doing a lot of nervous system work, trauma work. So for me, play can be over exciting on my nervous system.

And so I've had to play a little bit more lightly. And I think this is probably something we can touch on, like how we can modify play perhaps. But play has been very important in my life. I've loved being silly. I've loved being stupid. I wouldn't say I'm that person now, but given the opportunity, I probably would be. And I think it depends who I'm with, who I'm around.

you know, if I'm, if I feel safe enough, because I think there has to be that foundation of safety there, then play will be, will come out a lot easier. And there are definitely links with connection because, you know, how do we play when we're on our own? I think we can. but it's not as like, I dunno, it's not as fruitful perhaps, or it doesn't feel as

Serena (03:20.11)
Hey, ya.

Sally (03:28.959)
sparkly or doesn't feel as important perhaps. And I think perhaps because we are more isolated these days, maybe we forget about play as an option. So in terms of behavior change, it's not something that I really work with, with my clients, because I do more of the hypnotherapy, but in certainly in the coaching.

Serena (03:43.267)
So.

Serena (03:49.582)
Mm.

Sally (03:54.593)
side of things I would encourage people to play and I've definitely been told by therapists and healers in the past that I need to play more so yeah yeah definitely through these years anyway

Serena (03:54.594)
Mmm.

Serena (04:04.13)
that's interesting.

Serena (04:09.622)
I think what's lovely about what you've said is you've highlighted perfectly how basically it's play is very very individual as in like everything we will have our own definition of it which is why when you just say the word play typically what you find is people have a response to the word because it already embodies something in their mind it means something already.

So what play is for me might not be play for you, might not be play for the next person, it looks different. So for example, some people might just think of play and literally go to board games and go, I don't like playing, because in their head, that's what it embodies. means playing Scrabble or, well, I don't know. can't think of any board Cluedo, Game of Life, Operation, things for my child, and Reveal Pursuit. And they instantly go, I don't like that. And also,

Sally (04:39.703)
Yeah.

Sally (04:44.418)
Yeah.

Sally (04:56.548)
Trivial pursuits.

Serena (05:02.99)
pulling out some of the key things you've said there. You for you play as being maybe with other people and bouncing off them. Whereas some people play would very much be individual. Maybe it's that they're doing Lego on their own or they're doing some kind of solitary activity with this drawing, but that feels playful. So I think what's interesting is what play looks like to someone can be very, very different.

Sally (05:13.442)
Hmm.

Serena (05:29.258)
And for me, I think it's important to look at those differences, but I think it's also important to know what kind of qualities play brings, which is a different way of relating to it, maybe. So having a playful quality, bringing a playful quality, a playful demeanor to an activity is different to playing. I think it's that that links to change more so for me, it's the quality of play as well as play itself.

Sally (05:47.296)
Mmm.

So.

Sally (05:57.279)
Okay so it's more of an attitude, a playful attitude, yeah.

Serena (06:00.398)
It can be. Yes. So if you were to have a playful attitude, what does that look like for you? When was the last time you had a playful attitude towards something? So if I said that to you, what is that? If I said, is a playful attitude to you? What does that look like for you?

Sally (06:09.271)
Yeah.

Sally (06:16.813)
Well, that's interesting. So the thing that springs to mind is when I'm sending voice messages to workmen, to the people that have been renovating like my bedroom and I've got someone that's, that's having to do like a, a wall in a property. And when I'm dealing with like serious people, like agents and people like that, for me having a playful attitude in those potentially confronting situations when I need someone to show up at a certain time.

Serena (06:23.99)
Yeah. Yeah.

Sally (06:46.983)
or I need a job to be done to a certain standard or I need to like reiterate something to my agent for the 10th time. Approaching it with like just that lightheartedness or throwing a little joke in or even just smiling, smiling on a voice message or smiling on the phone to someone. It comes across slightly differently.

And I think it can be quite disarming for people as well. It can disarm their nervous systems if you are approaching it with lightness. And that's so important when we want positive outcomes, when we want something to work for us, it's helpful if we can encourage the other person to not get defensive as well, because then all their faculties, all their brain faculties stay in the right place.

Serena (07:23.458)
Mmm.

Sally (07:43.415)
you know, they don't get defensive. So it's a powerful tool for relationship building and communication, definitely, that playful attitude.

Serena (07:45.911)
Hmm.

Serena (07:55.391)
I think it's lovely what you said as well because it really links to what I said at the start around what play is and how we make sense of it when we're children. when I was, for the first seven years of my teaching as a lecturer, I taught developmental psychology to teachers and teaching assistants. So they weren't given any psychology input, it was mostly the teaching program that they were on.

and they did like master's training and some additional modules and I would do the developmental psychology to kind of teach them brain development and we would do beautiful work on play. And play for children is something we realize is key to their learning. So we know that children learn through play, which is why we let them do a lot of play when they're young and a lot of discovery and learning happens through play. So from that developmental perspective.

Sally (08:38.157)
Mmm.

Serena (08:51.192)
We're looking at play, you know, encouraging things like flexibility, discovery, creativity, agility, problem solving, learning how they emotionally regulate, social play, so having to interconnect and be social and learn then to relate to other people, to navigate relationships.

It also helps children develop their morals, their ethics, their physical coordination, their motor coordination. There's so much beautiful stuff that happens through play. So we know it's vital for children. And what's really telling something I'm very passionate about, kind of people remembering, is that when children are, you know, in a bad place, so maybe they're being neglected, they're going through trauma, they're encountering something often

Sally (09:24.163)
Mm.

Serena (09:41.102)
play will be the first thing to go. So for me, what that tells us is play is a sign that something is going well.

Sally (09:43.747)
Hmm.

Sally (09:48.565)
Yeah, yeah.

Serena (09:50.366)
And so that, we won't spend too long there, but it's just to kind of for people to think about that and reflect on that and recognize that we realize it's vital for children. does all these beautiful things, yet why should that stop?

Sally (10:04.693)
Yes!

Serena (10:04.928)
Why does it stop? Why do we suddenly feel like we need to take play off the table? Like you've done being a kid now plays for children. Let's take that away. When actually we know it's good for all of those beautiful things. Should that stop for us as adults? If you believe that we're here to grow and develop and change and behaviour change is you know what we're focused on. A beautiful way to tap into that in a very quick way is to embody

Sally (10:08.169)
Sally (10:28.971)
Mmm.

Serena (10:33.57)
those playful qualities and the learning that can happen from those. It's why I'm so passionate about it. It's because I think as adults, we're not hardwired to think of that straight away. yet it's, it does, doesn't it? I mean, there's good reason why, but if we're looking for likeness and we're looking to change in some way and it links back to that first episode on positive mindset.

Sally (10:44.823)
We certainly don't. It all gets a bit serious, doesn't it?

Sally (11:00.493)
Yeah.

Serena (11:00.534)
maybe this is one of the things we can think about reintroducing. know, lot of people, like you said, it all does become so serious and you you get to our age and I'm not saying again, it's like everything that we talk about on the podcast, it's not about forcing these things, it's about considering it and considering where you might be able to bring it into your life in a beautiful way that works for you. None of these things are a panacea. It's not suddenly if you start playing tomorrow, all of the seriousness of life will go away.

Sally (11:28.375)
Yeah.

Serena (11:28.462)
Because as we age, life is more serious. We've got to pay a mortgage, you've got to work, maybe aging parents, illness, bloody hormones, all the things that's your area. So all the things that you have to contend with. And yet, if I said to you, when we're talking about this and you're having some maybe ahas, you're like, yeah, what's coming up for you when we're talking about it? Is it already that you're thinking about how you can think about bringing it into your life?

Sally (11:56.513)
Yeah, definitely. Really. It's just, you know, I love this idea of, you know, adult play centres, adult soft play, things like that. Say that again.

Serena (12:04.858)
I've looked at it.

This is like if I had won the lottery, this is what I would open. You know this, don't you? I've looked at this so many times. Yeah, yeah, adult play centres, yeah.

Sally (12:12.994)
Yeah.

Sally (12:16.747)
Yeah, I do. think it's so good. it gets into that neuroplasticity and it helps us to use parts of the body that we wouldn't ordinarily use, like sitting up and getting up and sitting down and things like that. We do every single day. But I know when I was taking dance lessons a few years ago, my body was moving in a completely different way.

And that translated into my everyday life. I was much more nimble and agile and mobile. My brain was more alive. trying anything new can be, if you do it with a playful attitude, can be play. I had my first swimming lesson the other day. That was interesting. Yeah.

Serena (13:03.342)
You can swim can't you?

Sally (13:07.137)
can do breaststroke, but at the moment I've got a bad back and my physiotherapist has said that I should do swimming. And I was like, yeah, I can totally do swimming, but I swim breaststroke with my head up out of the water. So that's not going to be good for my back, right? And we've got this 50 meter pool, outdoor pool on the sea front, which I really want to use.

Serena (13:20.184)
Yeah.

Sally (13:30.771)
And I thought, I don't want to look like one of those people that are just poodling along while everyone else is doing the front crawl. I don't want to be that person. So I had a swimming lesson and I'm getting closer to being able to do brushstroke whilst putting my head in the water. Yeah. And that felt, that felt fun. And what I love about play is it puts you into a state of hypnosis, actually. Your brain waves change.

Serena (13:47.011)
Right.

Serena (14:00.013)
It does.

Sally (14:00.071)
and you lose time, it's a different focus, it's a different type of focus where you're more like in the zone.

Serena (14:09.292)
Yeah, yeah, definitely. So it's very much so you've literally taken my notes. It's very linked to flow state. So for us as adults, have more of an understanding of what that feels like. So like you said, that feeling of focused attention, heightened enjoyment, something feels effortless. And the way I describe it is you lose time.

Sally (14:14.667)
Yeah.

Sally (14:30.231)
Yeah.

Serena (14:30.966)
You could have been doing it for two hours and you won't know. I just want to get this guy's name out who came up with the idea of flow state. Because I've tried to learn how to pronounce his name. I'd never heard of how you said it before, but his name is Mihaly Csikszentmihalyhaly, I think. It's a really, really interesting name. So please forgive me if I've completely ruined my name.

Sally (14:47.624)
Wow.

Well done.

Serena (14:52.77)
But the reason I say that is because he came up with the concept of flow state in the 1970s. And actually, maybe we can link an interesting paper or book to that in our notes this week. But you're right, it's linked to that flow state, isn't it? That losing time feeling.

Sally (15:02.999)
Yeah.

Sally (15:08.705)
Yeah, definitely. you know, when I was a singer and writing songs, that was certainly a big type of play for me that I don't have in my life anymore. So that is definitely something that's missing. I do think play is a missing part of my life and I would like to get more back into it because I do see the potential for...

Serena (15:21.72)
Thank you.

Sally (15:33.857)
certainly help and we'll talk about this in the next episode but certainly help with connection, feeling like you belong, you know if you play with others, either you know singing in a choir or playing in a band or doing comedy improv, that's super helpful for that bonding and that sense of belonging which I'm not going to go too much into but I think what I do love about play especially when I go to like a seminar or something

Serena (15:39.982)
Hmm.

Sally (16:01.411)
and there's playful activities that you do, it certainly helps you to learn what you're there to learn about more than just sitting in a lecture. You know, that participation or underpinning something with a playful activity is...

Serena (16:11.394)
Yeah. Yeah.

Serena (16:19.232)
Yeah, it's funny because so teaching at university what I've noticed is I think for the most part the majority of students are not comfortable with it. Yeah, I've noticed it. feel like so recently and I've talked about this a lot in other places and people are probably bored of it but I'm teaching mindfulness this year so I'm in charge of mindfulness at the university and

Sally (16:29.601)
Right, interesting. Yeah, that was something that I'd thought of a barrier to it.

Serena (16:49.326)
I'm making all of my sessions really interactive. So this last week, I did a session on nature and mindfulness. And they knew ahead of time that I was going to take them into our local arboretum. And I could see the fear, even that. again, for me, I think it's because there's obviously lots of things associated, the unknown. Obviously some people are not connected to nature, so not interested, and that's fine.

but it felt it had the elements of play to what we were doing. It required them to be flexible. It required them to have a sense of discovery, creativity. It required them to interconnect. So all of those beautiful qualities that we get from playing were required of them because I was giving them mindful activities to do in nature. And some of them just, I mean, I gave them the option of coming.

or not. So lots of people chose not. And I know obviously at university you can think about, well, some people just want to go and get a coffee and it's blah, blah, blah. There's lots of reasons why, but I'm curious as to what percentage of those students do it because it's just the idea of being a bit more playful and your approach to learning is confronting and maybe sense of being too childish. Like what I got them to do felt too childish for them. I offered them some activities.

Sally (18:05.983)
Yeah, I was thinking that.

Serena (18:16.672)
Some of them fully embraced it, fully in, feet, literally two feet. Some of them took their shoes and socks off, they were grounding, it was beautiful. A couple of them were climbing trees, we saw squirrels, we were making leaf mandalas, doing meditations, it was beautiful. And some people were feeding off the playfulness of others, which is again, going back to that, what you've said about people. So people, know, learning to be more playful through who you're surrounded by is also a part of it.

Sally (18:35.511)
Yeah.

Serena (18:45.496)
But going back to that idea that I just don't, I don't think it's something that even younger people embody as much, maybe.

Sally (18:53.165)
Feels, could feel like a generational thing as well because when you're that age, you're trying to be more grown up, aren't you? But when you get to our age, you're trying to regress.

Serena (18:57.118)
Yeah,

Sally (19:10.721)
Yeah, and I know for me, I'm now going, how can I undo all this seriousness that I've kind of developed over the last 10 years, through sort of going into perimenopause and stress becoming more of an issue and, and all of that. So it's, it's timely. But, and also when you've done comedy improv, as we have,

Serena (19:20.366)
Hmm.

Serena (19:34.114)
Yeah.

Sally (19:34.849)
and you're more attuned to mistakes and playfulness. And of course there's always that weird warming up process where you're coming in off the street, you're coming in kind of with your default worry head on, and then all of a sudden you're being asked to play. It's like, have to kind of warm into that. And that's always a really uncomfortable zone, you know, until you've got used to it.

Serena (19:49.93)
Mm-hmm.

Serena (19:54.444)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Serena (20:01.198)
Yeah, and I think what you're saying as well is making me think about and play for a lot of people is very much, as I said at the start, linked to a sense of a negative feeling. But also I think it's because it can be linked to failure. So the idea that you fail, so you might not, for example, win a game or you might end up like with improv. I mean, if I had a power for every time I look stupid, I mean, I'd be a memory there.

Sally (20:15.096)
Yeah.

Sally (20:26.454)
Right.

Serena (20:28.152)
So you have to show up and be, there's a vulnerability to play. You might go in and feel very vulnerable when you do that. And I think that, again, as children, we have less of a filter. I'm not saying that children don't, because it, again, depends on their upbringing, it depends how they come to the table, what they had, what they had access to. Sadly, some children don't know how to play. And that's just, I find that so heartbreaking.

Sally (20:32.087)
Yes.

Sally (20:53.153)
Devastating, yeah.

Serena (20:55.586)
But play is a natural response to our world, to our natural world. Animals play. Animals play. You know, beautiful. Just go and type any animal and play into YouTube and you'll see beautiful montages of, there's a beautiful one that always comes into my mind of, they're a group of crows. I don't know what, it's a murder, isn't it? And they were taking turns.

Sally (21:01.987)
You're right.

Serena (21:21.848)
to walk up a little hill in the snow and then they took turns to flip onto their back and slide down and then they just walked back up to the top again. Yeah, why? Because they were playing. They like to play, animals play, children play when the circumstances are right. So yeah, just that natural response to our environment.

Sally (21:27.338)
my god!

Sally (21:35.5)
Right?

Serena (21:44.974)
It can be a natural response for our environment, also, as I've said, we learn all of these things and it can be that actually, because of maybe an experience that play has become something negative for us. Maybe if you did play and do something that was perceived as being wrong, or you had an interaction with a person that wasn't positive when you're playing that that can put you off. That vulnerability around failure and failing. Those things can feel really challenging.

Sally (21:56.408)
Yeah.

Sally (22:06.2)
Yeah.

Sally (22:09.762)
Yeah.

Yeah, I do think so. You vulnerability is something where I if you, I think vulnerability and shame are quite closely linked, aren't they? And if there's, if there's shame underneath, kind of unresolved or a feeling of not wanting to tap into that shame or embarrassment, then it's going to be quite challenging for you to face your vulnerability.

Serena (22:36.046)
Yeah.

Sally (22:41.239)
because vulnerability for me feels like standing on the precipice of something. It's quite exposing, like someone might see what's going on under the surface. And if we're not comfortable with who we are, with warts and all, and our kookiness, our goofiness, and Brené Brown talks about the goofiness and how we can...

Serena (22:51.406)
Yeah.

Serena (22:58.092)
Mm-hmm.

Sally (23:09.185)
She talks about play actually and how we can get more comfortable with that goofiness. It can be very, very healing for us to sort of dissolve that inner shame, but it does require a certain amount of confrontation or certain amount of willingness to be vulnerable. And perhaps, you know, if we're a teenager and it's all about saving face, not being embarrassed, you know, holding it all together, impressing the people around us.

Serena (23:15.822)
Hmm.

Serena (23:29.782)
It does.

Sally (23:37.891)
It's going to be so much harder, isn't it? I know for me, I was quite held, buttoned up a bit when I was a teenager and then less so in my twenties. So age hormones play a part, definitely.

Serena (23:49.484)
Yeah.

Serena (23:52.866)
And this is all what's coming up for me as you're speaking is this is all also very related to ego. What's your ego? You know, what are you willing to give up in order to engage? Is it easy to give up how you want to be perceived? How will you be perceived if you play, if you engage in those qualities where you are in a state of discovery awareness?

Sally (23:59.234)
Yeah.

Serena (24:21.838)
When you're being more flexible, so you're just responding to your environment versus trying to control your environment, all those playful qualities that people find difficult to embrace. How would it look like if you are vulnerable? And these can be really small things. here's a really, this is so random, but when I was walking my dog the other day, for example, I had an urge to...

Sally (24:40.259)
Hmm.

Sally (24:51.372)
Ha ha ha!

Serena (24:51.662)
It was a small wall and I hadn't urged to kind of jump onto that little wall and kind of walk along it like I was balancing and it made me, and I was very mindful of the fact that it would feel childish, but it's why I wanted to do it. So I did it. I was thinking, even I was aware that ego self, if anyone saw me, what on earth would they be thinking about that grown ass woman?

Sally (25:07.021)
Yeah.

Serena (25:16.502)
walking along a wall, she's like a seven year old. And I kind of made me chuckle because I just thought it's not a part of myself that I'm willing to shut down. But there was that mini battle with the ego because there's the awareness of how others may perceive you when you're embodying those qualities. And so, yeah, you know, even as someone who does the work, I can feel that sense of

Sally (25:19.851)
you

Sally (25:26.499)
Right.

Mm. Mm.

Sally (25:36.725)
Yes!

Sally (25:44.525)
that restraint.

Serena (25:45.686)
Yeah, the restraint that could be there if I bought into it.

Sally (25:49.929)
Yeah, definitely. It's just sort of made me think about where I live in Brighton, how it's essentially an incredibly playful city. You know, it's you don't bat an eyelid at people rollerblading or practicing their fire eating on the seafront or, you know, practicing their tightrope walking. It's just sort of practicing their piano. So we've got a piano at the train station.

Serena (25:51.662)
through.

Serena (26:17.174)
Yeah.

Sally (26:17.409)
And often you'll see someone like practicing and getting it wrong. And you're like, wow, you you just, it's sort of become very accepted here. And, know, it's a bit of a bubble that we live in and I appreciate the fact it's not like that in other parts of the world, but it is certainly, I think helped, like you say, environment plays such a big part in who you are. It's definitely helped me to, to not worry about,

Serena (26:26.03)
Mm.

Serena (26:40.631)
Yeah.

Sally (26:45.239)
you know, how I look, for example, I can go out looking quite playful and no one will bat an eyelid. You know, having grown my gray hairs out and now it's gone to its natural curly state. It's like I'm fine with that. I don't feel like I have to preen myself because of the place that I live in. I feel like I can show up a bit more flexibly, organically and all of those like elements of play. And it's in

Serena (26:59.768)
Yeah.

Serena (27:08.182)
Yeah, it's funny because yeah, sorry go on come on

Sally (27:13.247)
It's interesting that you brought up that word, the elements of play. That's not something that I'd considered before. And what was it that you said? So there's definitely vulnerability, isn't there? There's flexibility. What else is there with elements of play?

Serena (27:17.208)
Bye.

Serena (27:26.86)
What terms of what it builds? Sense of discovery, creativity, agility, problem solving, is that what you meant? It helps you figure out your own emotional regulation, interconnectedness. It might even help you further develop your values, your morals. And even as adults, even more important in terms of that, like both ends of that developmental spectrum when you're young, in terms of your physical and motor coordination, it's the same when you're older.

Sally (27:33.654)
Yeah.

Sally (27:43.555)
Yeah.

Sally (27:55.191)
Yeah. Yeah.

Serena (27:56.718)
Like you said, skateboarding, rollerblading for me, walking on a wall, so balance and proprioception, being playful, builds all of those things, strength. So yeah.

Sally (28:02.05)
Yeah.

Sally (28:05.793)
Yeah, I interviewed someone for my podcast who was a filmmaker. This was a few years ago, Julie Angel, her name was, and she lived in California and she had done a degree in something around parkour.

Serena (28:22.286)
yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Sally (28:24.257)
And so she and someone else have developed this exercise that is barefoot and it's outdoors and it's sort of climbing and it's based on 360 degree movement, very, very playful. You know, as kids, we bend and, you know, playing twister as a 50 year old is not easy. Yeah. Like, creak, creak, creak.

Serena (28:31.31)
Mmm.

Serena (28:36.462)
Yeah.

Serena (28:40.686)
Mmm.

Serena (28:44.46)
Yep.

Serena (28:48.726)
recommend.

Yeah. Yeah, crack, crack.

Sally (28:54.695)
but it actually doesn't have to be like that, does it? You know, know the body can move and bend and mold and, you know, there's lots of brilliant reels on Instagram that I see of, of people in their seventies and eighties who are doing incredible, incredibly agile things with their body that even I don't think I can do at this stage. I really need to, really need to get a personal trainer that can help me with that.

Serena (28:58.754)
There we go.

No.

Serena (29:13.294)
for sure.

Sally (29:22.243)
kind of thing because I'm so interested in it. My brain just feels lit up when I do things that I don't normally do like putting your arm under something.

Serena (29:23.511)
Yeah.

Serena (29:26.85)
Yeah.

Serena (29:31.726)
Yeah.

Serena (29:35.81)
Yeah, I think, I mean, what I would love to for people to reflect on, guess, it'd be really beautiful for everyone thought about as adults, how we might incorporate play into our lives a lot more. And I think for me, just going back to that really beautiful thing that you talked about, like then kind of mentioned flow state, just a little bit of research, there's a lot of benefit to doing things in your life. So there's behavior change, yes. And I would argue if you can

embody those playful qualities and think about what that looks like for you. How might your life start to feel different, look different? How would you experience it differently if you felt like you were more playful? So can you think about things that would enhance that flexibility, that creativity, that agility? So what does that look like for you? Is it something physical? Is it something more mindful?

Fong et al. 2015 actually did some really lovely research and just asked people who frequently engaged or said that they had experienced flow state, asked them kind of what they got from that and kind of measured what the kind of what came out of being able to enter that state on a regular basis. And it was reported that people who were able to tap into that state usually

found that they had higher levels of life satisfaction, they were happier, that there were reduced levels of anxiety and depression. So there's a lot of good research that tells us why it's beneficial to us to do those things. It's not just lip service, you know, there's a really good body of evidence there. And the same with physical movement as well. So looking at athletes, Swan 2012,

looked at the same thing in terms of flow state for the athlete and found that those that again could tap into that flow state more regularly had enhanced motor control, faster reaction times, improved decision making and typically performed in a much more superior level in terms of their performance as well. So again, linking that play to flow state has a really powerful knock on effect in kind of many areas of your life and all of those things are changing us.

Sally (31:41.539)
Mmm.

Serena (31:52.504)
for the better, arguably. Again, so for me, it's really thinking about how we start to embody those qualities in our day to day. And yeah, I'm already thinking about some things I'm gonna start to change. I mean, I'm really passionate about it, as you know, as I keep saying anyway, and I'm always thinking about this. But we all need a reminder and talking about it is also bringing some things to mind for me. So yeah, maybe.

Sally (32:18.838)
Yeah.

Serena (32:20.812)
Yeah, what have you taken away today, Sally? Because we could keep talking about this, couldn't we, clearly?

Sally (32:25.667)
Yeah, no, I think it's good. think for me, taking away the idea of flow state being involved in play for sure. I want to play more. For me, it's about time and there are certain barriers at the moment for play because play... I need to find a way of getting it in to me. You you have that thing of pieces of the jigsaw that actually to be able to...

Serena (32:41.677)
Yeah.

Serena (32:52.94)
Yeah.

Sally (32:55.093)
make a change, you have to have room for it in your life. Yeah, so as you know, I could say, yeah, I'm gonna do this, this, this and this, but actually there needs to be room for it. I think for me, I belong to this group called Co-Women and they have a lot of playful activities that you can join. And yeah, they play pool, they're doing like a Halloween thing where they're, you know, walking up a hill in the South Downs and lighting a fire and making, doing spells.

Serena (32:58.179)
day.

Serena (33:22.946)
No. I trust you.

Sally (33:24.215)
Ha ha.

I know, trust me, trust Brighton, yeah. It's things like that that I would like to be more involved in and I can see how they would actually give me more energy and also create a greater sense of connection and safety in my physical body. Yeah, I think that that's something that, you know, for me, that would be a goal to have that increased sense of.

Well, I think belonging as well, because as an only child, I've always felt like I haven't really belonged and we'll get to this in the next episode, felt different, felt like, where do I fit in? And so I do tend to always put barriers up. So there is like something within that, you know, knowing how beneficial playful is, especially for life satisfaction. That is...

Serena (34:11.32)
Yeah.

Serena (34:21.762)
Yes.

Sally (34:24.577)
something. Yeah, I'm not quite sure how. I'm gonna, I'm gonna need to think about it, Serena. Definitely gonna need to think about it.

Serena (34:29.858)
Yeah, I'll let you ask. So is that the thing? So I said with every episode we're going to end on something that will both change. Is that yours? You're to try and figure out how you fit one of those activities in. Is that it for you this week?

Sally (34:41.707)
Yeah, or maybe because I sort of have this personal boundary of not really doing anything in the evenings. The evenings to me are really precious as a highly sensitive person. I need my evenings to decompress and stare out of a window and just, you relax. It's, it's, it's for me understanding how I can get play perhaps into the day or maybe into the morning.

Serena (34:49.102)
Thanks for having me.

Serena (35:04.204)
Right, yep, so it has to work for you. Yeah, definitely. For me, I really feel what you've said about time because I am extremely time poor at the moment, extremely. And I've been trying to inject something into my week for a while now, which is...

Sally (35:06.187)
so has to work for me, yeah, exactly. What about you, lovely?

Serena (35:29.228)
And for me, this feels playful at the moment. again, depending on where you are in terms of your life, what's happening, literally what you're firefighting at that point in time, you'll have various levels of capacity to do various things. And for me, I want the activity to feel playful, but gentle because I need things that help me calm my nervous system and regulate better versus something that winds me up.

Sally (35:56.162)
Yeah.

Serena (35:57.038)
And so for me, for what I've tried to get into my week for a while now is to, when I wake up in the morning, so I have a lovely office, I'm lucky I've got a lovely office at the top of my garden. So surrounded by trees and nature and it's really, really serene. My intention is to go and spend probably like half an hour in the morning drawing and painting.

Sally (36:23.297)
wow.

Serena (36:24.2)
I've painted and drawn since I was a child and for me it feels incredibly playful. It's one of my playful activities and I've been trying to find time to do that for all of the reasons that we've talked about today to enhance that flexibility, that creativity to tap into that source, to get into that flow state and I totally go into flow state when I'm painting.

Sally (36:46.691)
Hmm.

Serena (36:51.65)
So yeah, to bring that back, think would be, I know would be game changing. So I think it's something I have to find time for. So that's my intention.

Sally (37:00.373)
Yeah, I didn't even know that you, you painted and drawed. Drawed? True!

Serena (37:05.614)
I draw did and I painted did. Yeah, I do. Yeah, I love it. So yeah. So let's check in again with each other in a few weeks. We will with all of these things that we're saying. We'll kind of pick them up as we go, won't we, and have a little check in. Yeah. Thank you so much for this conversation. I could talk about this forever, as you know. So yeah, loved, loved, loved it. Thank you so much.

Sally (37:11.267)
that's brilliant, yeah.

Sally (37:22.231)
Yeah. Yeah.

Sally (37:30.77)
brilliant. Thank you, Serena. Really enjoyed it myself.

Serena (37:32.802)
Yeah, yeah, I'll see you next time when we're talking about connection.

Sally (37:37.387)
Yeah, see you next time.