S4/E3 Connection and Belonging

In today's conversation we explore the profound themes of connection and belonging, discussing their importance in human life and the repercussions of isolation. We delve into the impact of online interactions, the individual nature of connection, and the role of vulnerability in forming deep relationships. Cultural influences on belonging and the balance between family ties and personal identity are examined too, alongside personal anecdotes that highlight the nuances of these themes. The discussion also touches on Maslow's hierarchy of needs, emphasizing the essential role of belonging in achieving personal fulfillment and well-being.

This is a beautiful conversation which will hopefully motivate you to explore ways to deepen your own connections. 

References
Maslow:  https://psycnet.apa.org/record/1943-03751-001
Seth Godin: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=589tH-wtCak 

Serena’s Links
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/serenapsychologist/
Website: https://thepsychologyschool.co/

Sally’s Links
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sallygarozzomindmentor/
Website: https://www.sallygarozzo.com

Transcript

Serena (00:01.728)
Hello Sally and welcome to this week's podcast. It's so lovely to see you, how have you been?

Sally (00:08.021)
Well, since the last time I saw you, which was five minutes ago...

Serena (00:13.122)
No, you can't say that! can't break the veil! This is not the Wizard of Oz!

Sally (00:21.424)
I am, yeah, I'm excited to be talking about connection and belonging. I definitely feel this subject is something that I can get my teeth into a lot. I think you were the expert on play, but for me, connection and belonging, yeah, it's... Because I've always felt very different and I've always felt like quite difficult to connect, but we'll go into this probably a little bit later.

Serena (00:42.954)
Hmm.

Sally (00:50.83)
Yeah, what does it bring up for you connection and belonging? Why is it important, do you think, for the behaviour change conversation?

Serena (00:57.408)
Well, connection is a part of my AP model. It's a key pillar because when we're looking at changing, and again, I think I've definitely mentioned this before in the pod, when you're looking at your own behavior and you're looking at how you show up in the world, it is typically in response to other people. Otherwise you're behaving in a vacuum.

Sally (01:01.306)
Mm-hmm.

Sally (01:18.22)
Hmm.

Sally (01:22.724)
Yes.

Serena (01:23.11)
and you start to enter those really deep philosophical discussions around kind of meaning and how we create meaning as human beings and who are we doing it all for. So without going too deeply into that, it's basically saying that we are always kind of working in response to people around us. And actually we're hardwired to be social beings. We are social creatures. It's a fundamental need as a human.

to connect with other people and it's something that we do need. Yeah.

Sally (01:54.426)
Yeah.

Yeah, definitely, definitely. And if it's all right to just bring something up here, because I remember being on a consultation with someone. He was a young boy, 19 years old, and he felt at such a loss because he said he could get everything that he needed online. So what was the point? What was the point of him connecting? Yet the lack of connection was really affecting his mental health.

Serena (02:24.674)
you

Sally (02:27.642)
So I found that really interesting and that is definitely something that Marisa Pierce talked about. And you see it a lot where, you know, we can have everything delivered. We can, you know, we can get a deliverer. We can get our taxis all, we don't have to talk to the taxi driver, you know, the taxi driver knows where we're going because it's on an app. So we don't even need to go, you know, 95 Lewis road, please. Or, you know, even that little bit of connection, it's a spark, isn't it?

Serena (02:27.746)
Yeah.

Serena (02:36.746)
Yeah.

Sally (02:55.682)
So I think we are becoming more and more isolated, definitely, and as a result, that is impacting our levels of happiness and also perhaps creating more stasis in the body and the mind and the life, like this idea of not being able to move forward.

Serena (03:06.828)
Yeah.

Serena (03:17.354)
I think you've said a couple of really key things there for me that I'd love to unpack with you. you've kind of jumped straight to, and which is perfect in many ways, to kind of make sense of almost saying why we need it. So what are the repercussions if we don't have any social connection and we don't feel a sense of belonging? And we know from the research that it's kind of linked to lot of the research around the loneliness research and what that does.

Sally (03:30.554)
Yeah.

Serena (03:43.586)
which is different when you can break that down as well and look at people who choose to be on their own versus those that don't feel that they have any control over being on their own, which is different. But we know from the research that generally speaking, when people don't feel a connection or sense of belonging, because they don't really have anyone to connect to, that it does impact their happiness, their wellbeing, their mental health. But really interesting and why it's so serious a discussion for us.

is we know it's also linked to increased illness and mortality rate. So those people that are not connected and don't feel like they belong, I mean, we're looking at people literally, you know, shortening the length of their life because they don't feel that they have a sense of connection. And the thing that you really struck upon there that I think is so interesting to talk about is how our world today has created

Sally (04:26.436)
Yeah.

Serena (04:39.02)
Like with what we have in terms of access to kind of almost like you said, living online, what that's actually doing to us as a society. How do we connect if we can do so much online? I mean, even we're doing this online, my meetings, half of my work is online now. So when are we truly connecting with other human beings and what impact is that having on us? I mean, do you have anything to say about that? How does your life work in terms of online?

Sally (04:46.821)
Yeah.

Sally (04:55.716)
Yeah.

Sally (05:03.746)
I yeah, I mean, a lot of it is online and because I've been doing my bedroom renovation, which has been taking up quite a lot of my thinking time, I've not been as social over the last three weeks. And actually this weekend, I was like, my God, I actually felt it in my heart. I felt my heart, you know, and these kind of like...

don't want to say chest pains because that sounds really dramatic, but I felt like a tightening and I knew what it was about. I knew it was about not having enough social connection. And it's so interesting because I went out for a walk and I was chatting to some people, chatting to, you know, stroking the dogs and stuff. And instantly I felt better. Instantly, my entire...

chemistry change. I knew it would and that's why I went out and thought I'm just going to talk to some people because Graham was flat out on the sofa and you know, I mean at least I do have a partner that I can talk to and that is is definitely something that is really important and vital when you know, I think there's some some stats around the risk factor for heart disease goes up quite significantly for people that live alone or that people that are in like conflicting toxic relationships.

Serena (06:26.231)
Yeah.

Sally (06:26.49)
where that stress and that heart coherence just isn't, it's not there, you know, there's stress on the heart. So I recognize the value of it, but I also recognize for me how isolating my life can be sometimes. I don't mind the online thing, if I'm honest. I feel I do get a connection with people when I'm talking online.

It's better than nothing for sure. Even scrolling or commenting on Instagram and having that sort of conversation in the DMs or conversation in the comments can feel like there's a bit of oxytocin going around. And I'm quite tuned into what that feels like. And I think that comes back to self-awareness as well, making sure that you're aware of how these social interactions can affect your chemistry.

But certainly as someone who, and this sort of plays into why we might choose to isolate and barriers to connection and belonging. I know for me, as an only child, I had a lot of attention and couldn't wait to have my own space. You know, I really felt like I needed to have a lot of space as well as a highly sensitive person as well.

So I needed to seek refuge in my own space, but of course you can take that too far. And I think for me, the danger is to isolate too much. And I think we've spoken about that in the play episode before where, you know, sometimes I find it challenging to go into those social situations because I need a lot of alone time. But actually what I think, and I know I'm rambling a little bit here, but.

What I think, I just want to say this, that the fatigue, when you think you can't go out, can actually be a result of isolation. And so what you may need to do is to, in a way, like, force yourself to do it. Because in that interacting with people, you are gaining energy. So I know there's quite a lot I've spoken about there, all in one go.

Serena (08:48.258)
There's a lot to unpack.

Sally (08:50.65)
But yeah, that's kind of like how I feel about connection. I think belonging is slightly different. But yeah, we'll get to that.

Serena (09:01.644)
So it's interesting because what you've done again is so there's benefits to online because for some people, if they are really cut off, this is their form of connection. But what you're saying there, and I think that's the crux is, and again, it kind of is a bit like how we've navigated some of these conversations in the past. And certainly for me, I always look at the individual. And so for someone,

Sally (09:08.954)
Yeah.

Serena (09:26.336)
If I was working with them, I would look at what connection meant to them. What does it look like for them? How do they feel a sense of connection? So it's always really, really important to understand someone's individual filter and understand what they perceive connection to be. And also the same with belonging. What do those things look like for you? What do they feel like for you? Because they will be individual. And I think what we're trying to say ultimately, and I've said it

Sally (09:50.426)
Yeah.

Serena (09:53.824)
a little bit in my own way and you have as well is we know, I think we know fundamentally as humans that we need it and we need to tap into it, some of us more than others, but it's there for everyone in some form or another. And it's about looking at how you can.

Sally (10:01.839)
Yeah.

Serena (10:16.97)
Create a life where you're having your needs met when it comes to connection and belonging is what we're looking at. And whatever that looks like for you is what the work is for all of us, is to have that happen. Because I think we can all, and you're kind of again alluding to it there, we have a sense of when we don't have it and how we feel and how it impacts us.

Sally (10:25.188)
Hmm.

Sally (10:38.937)
Yeah.

Serena (10:40.128)
And I relate to what you said. mean, I'm a massive introvert. And so I have a tendency as an introvert to probably spend too much time or want to spend too much time on my own. But like you, I recognize where maybe I've been doing that and I need to step out of it. So it's become a mindful practice to me to recognize when I'm doing that too much. So I relate to that. Yeah.

Sally (10:53.38)
Yeah.

Sally (11:03.992)
Yeah, exactly that.

Yeah, what I really love, you the benefits of connection for me are about feeling, again, it fosters that sense of safety, that someone sees you, that someone recognises you, that you're not just living in this silo by yourself. And that's the danger, I think. Our threat response goes through the roof. And I know when I was teaching my sleep course, one of the...

principles on that was are you getting enough connection? Because if we're not, if we feel like nobody sees us like we're not here, then we actually feel very unsafe. Like who can we go to? If we're in a time of need, who can we go to? And I think that is what is lacking a lot in today's society. Those sort of, a lot of people know a lot of people, but do we actually say that again?

Serena (11:52.182)
Yeah.

Serena (12:00.598)
Yeah, but do you really know them? Yeah, but do you really know them?

Sally (12:07.564)
Right. And I think that is what's, and it comes back to that vulnerability because in order to form deep friendships, you need to have a sense of staying power, you know, and because life has become so global now, people are traveling here, there and everywhere. So how can you form those deep friendships with people if you're traveling here, there and everywhere? Like you have to be in a, in a,

in a certain place for long enough to be able to foster the depth that actually true connection requires to access that vulnerability, to access that empathy, to be there for someone in a time of need. Because not everyone needs you all of the time, but when they do, can you be there for them or are you on the other side of the world? And I think that's why I have this envy sometimes of people that have

grown up in a certain place and lived in a certain place their whole life. You know, and yeah, and they have these thick, fast connections. They know their neighbor, you know, inside out. And it's like, I've run a mile from that, right? I have run away from that because of X, Y, Z, whatever trauma. And just wanting to explore the world a bit more. But sometimes now I'm like,

Serena (13:10.636)
Bye.

Serena (13:27.33)
You

Sally (13:32.848)
God, I really envy that. Having your parents next door, having aunt and uncle living in the same block as you. And there's a real reason why people do that, to make sure they're safe. And you don't get that as much in the cities.

Serena (13:41.088)
That's it.

Hmm.

Yeah, that's so funny.

Sally (13:52.312)
Yeah, you don't get that as much in the cities. Go on.

Serena (13:52.534)
Yeah.

That's a really, for me, that's an incredibly interesting part of the conversation because it's, so I'm the only person in my entire family to not live in the same place as my family. And from a young age, I went off and I went traveling and I lived in New Zealand for eight years. I mean, you couldn't get any further away on the planet. And I went away and I still am away. So for me, connection is really interesting because

Sally (14:11.246)
Right.

Serena (14:27.126)
I'm very aware that I need it and I think it's an interesting distinction when you look at connection, when you start to look at the nuance of that. Like I said, it's individual to you so what does that look like for you? And some people will immediately say family.

I didn't necessarily think that straight away when I think about connection. I don't think of family necessarily immediately. It's not because they're not important to me. I kind of think more broadly, am I connecting to humans that are humans that I feel connected to? And I think that comes from the fact that I went off into the world at a young age and lived away from home from 17 and traveled and lived abroad. And so for me,

Sally (14:49.349)
Mm-hmm.

Sally (14:56.293)
Yeah.

Serena (15:06.57)
you connect with, I had to connect with the people that I was surrounded by. So I formed some really deep, very familial feeling connections with the people that I encountered on that journey. So for me, connection has become more than family. And for me now, when I look at family who I love and I want to be connected to, I still don't want to live next to them.

Sally (15:19.727)
Yeah.

Sally (15:26.618)
Yeah.

Sally (15:35.47)
Ha!

Serena (15:36.45)
I hope they're not listening to this. I love them. It's like any connection for me. I want to choose when I tap into it and when I don't and I wouldn't want... No! Whereas some people, but their version of connection is a lot more... There's a word I'm looking for that's escaping my hormonal head. But it's a lot more... I'm trying to make...

Sally (15:39.247)
You

Sally (15:46.308)
You don't want it to be imposed on you.

Sally (16:06.18)
like knitted and meshed.

Serena (16:06.306)
Signals of my hand. Yeah, knit is a good word. Let's go that. Enmeshed. Let's go with that, Sally. Yes, because my brain can't retrieve the word. Yeah, it's a lot more of an enmeshed feel. That is connection. Which again, I'm just kind of sharing this. I think it's interesting because people will obviously listen to me say that and have their own opinion and their own feelings about what that feels like for them. And yet I'm very aware, for example, in my situation, I still want to feel like I belong. I absolutely, and so I want the connection.

Sally (16:19.194)
Yeah.

Serena (16:36.334)
and I need to feel like I belong. I do, and I think that is the difference. So like you said, they're two very different things. Connection is something, maybe something that you do, but you need to feel a sense of belonging to something, to a group, someone. That human drive to feel like you belong. get to come, home to the sense of belonging and where is that for you? Where do you feel like you belong?

Sally (16:48.003)
Yes.

Sally (17:01.442)
Exactly that. And, you know, some people feel like they belong to their families if their families have been functional, or even if they're dysfunctional. There's a, you know, it's that idea of blood is thicker than water. And some cultures really prioritise the family, like the, you know, the Irish population can, the Catholic population, some Muslim populations, you know. Yeah, yeah, it's very much about the family and dare you go out. If you go out, if you

Serena (17:23.34)
and yeah.

Sally (17:30.69)
If you think about, you know, trying something that's not what we do, then you're an outcast. And that doesn't really sit well with me because I'm all about autonomy and authenticity. You know, we know that that is actually a fundamental psychological need for humans to sort of.

Serena (17:40.076)
Yeah.

Sally (17:51.374)
be able to define themselves as they want to. And that does require a bit of flexibility, actually, I think, within the family unit. So if you're not allowing people to do that, that's a bit, ooh, that makes me go a bit, bleh. But that's maybe a conversation.

Serena (18:05.686)
Why? No why, we want to go there. I'm a psychologist, let's dig in.

Sally (18:09.476)
Well, because it's restrictive. It's restrictive. It's like, yeah, like if I'm wanting to do something that's not in line with the family value system, but it's something that I really feel called to do, then you gotta choose, haven't you? It's like, am I gonna choose my own way? Or am I gonna betray that and stick with this family where I feel oppressed, suppressed?

Serena (18:34.507)
Yeah.

Sally (18:39.564)
and not really free to live the kind of life that I want to live. So it's restricted.

Serena (18:45.452)
And that's really interesting because like, so from a psychological viewpoint, I think for me this links to that idea of social identity theory. So Taffa and Turner coined this term, a sense of it. this idea of social identity is that we have a sense of identity and our self-worth is something that comes from the groups that we belong to. So we have this social identity that we have, if you like,

Sally (19:06.99)
Yeah.

Serena (19:14.86)
that has grown with us in terms of the people that we're surrounded by. And that's often when you do see that conflict arise and you do see issues with people not feeling that they belong, for example, because they've, as you've alluded to, they maybe don't embody the values of that group. And we can see all sorts of issues arise psychologically when people then maybe sacrifice.

Sally (19:33.764)
Yeah.

Serena (19:41.558)
their own well-being, happiness, mental health for the greater group. So that, and which is kind of alluding to what you're saying.

Sally (19:41.966)
Yeah.

Sally (19:48.432)
Hmm.

It's quite a nuanced conversation, isn't it? Because on the one hand, there are benefits to staying close to family. But on the other hand, there are benefits to carving out your own identity, your own sort of social identity. And I wonder if perhaps this is getting more and more prevalent because of how small the world is becoming, that people are leaving their family units to go and find their own sort of social tribe. You know, we are seeing rise,

Serena (19:59.84)
Yes.

Serena (20:10.21)
Mmm.

Sally (20:22.0)
the rise in tribes, aren't we? think Seth Godin wrote a book about that years ago. I didn't read it, but I got the concept of it that we're becoming more and more, you know, we're finding our tribe more and more around these paradigms, around these thought paradigms. But I feel that that can be a bit culty. And maybe that's why we're seeing

Serena (20:36.876)
Nah.

Sally (20:47.428)
the rise in these cults as well. And that's totally off topic. Well, it's not really, it? Because cults and belonging and connection. But it is, you know, I wonder if that's why, you know, people are moving away from the family into what they think they want. And then ending up in this sort of icky situation that they can't maybe get out of. There's probably a fine balance.

Serena (21:09.76)
Well, think the issues, yeah, the issues arise when I think the group dynamic is that someone has to fit that paradigm to be to belong. This is acceptance of the person acceptance of the person who doesn't necessarily share the same values. But then, like you said, the nuances, it is that then a part of their identity or isn't and therefore do they really belong or do they not belong? That's that's the difference. Interesting what you said there in terms of

Sally (21:19.822)
Right, again.

Serena (21:39.852)
that kind of that tribal element in terms of this sense of connection and belonging. Because I have to be honest, as I've gotten older, I certainly have got very little patience for staying very long in places where I don't feel a sense of connection and belonging. Like I kind of feel like when I was younger, think when you are younger, you experiment a lot more with this, don't you? Because you're still figuring yourself out.

Sally (21:57.136)
yeah.

Serena (22:06.336)
So you're kind of testing your sense of connection and belonging. Like where do I belong? don't really know, like, cause you're figuring out you and your values and your ethics and your morals and your values. And as you're kind of figuring that stuff out, you test being with different people. And I think, although I love challenging conversations and I love all the beauty that life brings and I love people and trying to figure them out and understand people.

who I spend my time with and who I actually want to have a sense of belonging to and who I want to nurture connection with. That's a very different thing. I choose those people very carefully. So there is a sense of cultishness to that as well. But you choose those people who are aligned with those things. Yeah, I think.

Sally (22:59.311)
I like you. Yeah. It's all about alignment, isn't it? It's, you know, alignment. Alignment is like that energetic alignment. And when it happens, it's like pieces of the jigsaw fitting and you're like, can breathe now. And that creates a sense of safety that you can open up and become more vulnerable with that person. And that's how we get depth, depth of friendship.

Serena (23:05.915)
Yeah.

Serena (23:19.842)
Yeah.

Serena (23:24.29)
Hmm.

Sally (23:25.924)
depth of relationship and we can only really have true connection with someone when we do get that depth. So there has to be that alignment. If we're not aligned, then we're really just kind of living a lie. And that's so unhealthy for the body. There's that dissonance, is real like noise in the signal that's just not great for anything.

Serena (23:31.724)
Yeah.

Serena (23:51.578)
Hmm. So, I mean, so everyone has heard of Maslow's hierarchy of needs. I think everyone, don't have to have studied psychology to know this. So Maslow's hierarchy in 1943. I mean, no, when you're looking at that kind of hierarchy of what we need as humans, so that kind of physiological need is kind of forming the basis of that need, safety on top. Love and belonging comes next. So.

Sally (24:01.658)
Yeah.

Serena (24:18.814)
It's interesting when you start to ponder that and maybe be critical of that in terms of what you say you might need as an individual. After that is self-esteem and then self-actualization. But there's a lot of kind of general critique and discussion around how important this really is, this sense of what we're talking about. And no instruction necessarily on how we get it.

Sally (24:45.946)
Mm. Yeah. Okay. Well, it's true.

Serena (24:47.97)
So for you Sally, maybe is there a way that you think of, so where do you belong I guess is maybe a good question to ask.

Sally (25:00.068)
very much in the menopause sphere at the moment. Yeah, and I sort of kind of identify with that because it's been my role for the last four years, five years. But I just want to say something actually. I think we can find belonging in the tiniest of places. I used to find a sense of belonging when I would sing in bands.

Serena (25:26.338)
Hmm

Sally (25:27.694)
That was really, really important to me, but I don't do that anymore. So I was talking about my husband's football card event. So he collects football cards, right? Which to me is like the most weirdest thing I can ever think of. First of all, I hate clutter. Second of all, I hate football, but for him, my God, it's brilliant for his mental health.

Serena (25:42.178)
Ha!

Serena (25:54.294)
Yeah, sorry.

Sally (25:56.586)
and the connection and the belonging is off the scale. So he held this event in Brighton, Brighton football card show, football card and memorabilia show. And I turned up at the end and I feel like a fish out of water. I feel like I don't belong here at all. I was literally was like frozen. Anyway, as the event started to dwindle and it was like packing downtime.

I'm thinking, my God, what do I do? Anyway, I just got stuck in and I started clearing that church like a bad bitch. And I tell you what, I felt such a proud sense of belonging to the clear up team that I created this, and there was another girl there who had blonde curly hair like me. And I was like, team curly, woohoo. And we just like, you know.

Serena (26:41.452)
Wow.

Serena (26:48.834)
Bye.

Sally (26:52.558)
all the tablecloths away and we were putting the chairs back for the church sermon the next day. And it actually reminded me of when I grew up with my nan and granddad. I spent a lot of time with my nan and granddad and they were Salvation Army. And I mean, that is just like community off the charts really. But there was that real sense of doing something to belong. And I felt like a very important part of that

Serena (27:15.97)
Sally (27:19.856)
process that actually in that moment I suddenly became indispensable. I came away with the most beautiful feeling in my belly, this warmth in my belly. So weird huh? Putting the chairs away!

Serena (27:21.186)
Right.

Serena (27:25.91)
Yes.

Serena (27:33.538)
Yeah, yeah. No, not weird. I love it. I love it. And it makes me think. But when you described it, do you know what I thought of, which is, I don't know whether anyone can relate to this, but the fact that when you first got there, you felt like a fish out of water and you stood on the sidelines and you had this very strong sense of I don't belong. And it made me think of children when they start school.

Sally (27:39.578)
That's my little story.

Sally (27:58.072)
Yeah.

Serena (27:58.368)
And that feeling, that awful feeling in a way that we can all relate to, but you don't yet belong to anyone. You don't yet belong to a group of friends. And how actually our informative younger years really actually do inform how we show up in those situations still. And so parts of ourselves show up in those moments, don't they? Like what part of you was that, maybe that small part of Sally, that young part that kind of going, I don't belong.

Sally (28:05.316)
Yeah.

Sally (28:20.366)
Yeah.

Serena (28:28.378)
and where did that come from and when did you feel like that in the past? It is terrifying and it's so, it's why again, going back to that kind of hierarchy and why I kind of raised this and talked about it as well is just, it is important to us and it has an impact when we feel that we don't belong in some way. And so the fact that you've, as an adult, you've been able to nurture practices, maybe in that moment you did it.

Sally (28:28.58)
Yeah, it's terrifying.

Sally (28:47.343)
Yeah.

Serena (28:56.506)
a little bit unconsciously, but became conscious of what it was doing. And it created a beautiful feedback loop view that this is something you wanted to do. And that it had a positive impact, which means again, you've built that scheme with that pathway. It means you're more likely to go and want to do it again in that situation and try it to create a sense of belonging. Yeah.

Sally (29:00.495)
Yeah.

Sally (29:04.079)
Yeah.

Sally (29:15.428)
Yeah.

Sally (29:18.914)
Yeah, there's so much actually that's been coming up for me and my husband around belonging as well. We've got some Jewish friends and we've been invited to some Jewish barbecues and like a couple of barbecues in the summer and we felt really welcome and really like, you know, we learned a lot. We were curious about their religion and how they kind of played out their Jewishness. And we came home and my husband, I was like,

Serena (29:46.508)
Yeah.

Sally (29:48.954)
babe, do you feel like becoming Jewish? And he was like, my God, I really do. And so he's actually been exploring it. And I'm like, I don't think I've got the time to do it at the moment because you can convert. But he's like, you know what, I am definitely going to look into what you need to do to convert to Judaism. we keep, it's in the algorithm now as well and keeps coming up on our Netflix, these sort of

Serena (29:54.486)
Yeah, it's

Wow.

Sally (30:15.344)
cute little Jewish programs and I'm we're to get sucked into this if we're not careful. But it's, yeah.

Serena (30:21.538)
You had a sense of belonging to something, which often a big driving force for people to want to join various groups, religions, because it really feels, you feel like you belong to something and that then helps you develop connections to other people.

Sally (30:25.698)
Yeah, yeah definitely.

Sally (30:34.778)
Yeah.

Sally (30:40.293)
Yeah.

Yeah, for sure.

Serena (30:46.306)
So much more we could say about this, Sally. Maybe this is something that we talk about again, because I'm not sure we can do both of these areas as a full service in such a short conversation. But just kind of putting a little bit of a bow on it in terms of maybe just something to say about how this relates to change on your own change. Actually, I think you've illustrated it beautifully with a couple of things that you've said.

Sally (30:57.998)
Hmm.

Sally (31:10.48)
Mmm.

Serena (31:10.53)
because you really, with the example about the chairs and the tidying up, you really put yourself out there. That's change for you. That's you embracing change. So I think, yeah, maybe we don't need to say any more about that. Maybe we just think about what we're going to change ourselves this week as a result of our conversation. That's a lovely way to end. Is there any?

Sally (31:24.324)
Yeah, yeah, let's do that. I'd like to invite you to talk about that first.

Serena (31:32.084)
Okay, I haven't really got anything jumping out at me to mind, but actually something again, I think I may be setting myself up to fail here a little bit, so I need to think about this a bit more deeply, but I'm not doing a great deal to, I definitely feel connected and have a sense of belonging in my life and various different groups, mostly with my members of my family and also

Sally (31:46.576)
Hmm.

Serena (32:01.58)
with my oldest dearest friends. And I think I'm very, very grateful as I get older for having particular people in my life. Cause I always realize and having awareness that I have this, it feels like a really safe full back. I've always got these people that are there and they've all got my back, which is so beautiful. And I think I'm really blessed to have that. And yet what I very similar to you, when you talked about singing, I've always usually been a part of group.

where I'm connected to something bigger so obviously I also sang like you did. I've played group sports my whole life like played rugby and various other things and done improv for years and right now I do nothing in a group nothing but it's challenging me in terms of that external connection.

Sally (32:41.818)
Wow, did not know that, okay. Not the rugby thing,

Serena (32:57.826)
And I've toyed with the idea of joining another sports team or doing some improv again. So I think for me, I'm going to have a look at how I can incorporate something like that back into my life. I think I'm edging more towards the improv, which I'm feeling a little bit actually. So I'm going to explore that possibility and see how I can maybe fit that in. How about you?

Sally (33:20.75)
Yeah, lovely. Thank you for sharing that. Well, yeah, just coming back to the old friends thing, I don't have huge connections with my past because I've kind of done one. You know, like, what's the word when you just escape? Like, get just come out of that, that sort of icky sticky. I've done a call. That's it.

Serena (33:39.626)
You've done a curl. Why I survive the curl?

Sally (33:46.2)
I fled, I flewed, I flewed away. And recently I have actually just got back in touch with a very old friend. I mean, it's a very long story and I won't go into it, but it did feel very beautiful to have a conversation with her, know, hour and a half conversation with her. She was an old school friend. very much been kind of on and off since school days. Very strong personality and probably a bit

Serena (34:10.028)
Yeah.

Sally (34:15.14)
bit of clashy there and very loving, but sometimes quite overbearing. And I run a mile when people are overbearing because it harks back to childhood. so it's sort of having that friendship, but knowing that I have the confidence to be able to put in a boundary if I need to. So that is definitely something that I'm going to be exploring and other old friends and deepening current friendships for sure.

Serena (34:34.402)
Yeah.

Sally (34:44.428)
Improv is something that I'm doing in a couple of weekends time. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And then in terms of sports, I have never, ever, ever, ever played team sports. So yeah. wait, I did netball at school.

Serena (34:47.702)
No, can't hear about it. We're to have to hear about it on here because it's lovely. Very excited.

Serena (35:05.106)
Salligarhats! Again! Not for everyone!

Hmm?

Sally (35:11.844)
but in my adult life, never really been drawn to that kind of thing. Yeah, so I'm so curious that you played rugby. Like, I'm just beyond, I just wanna sit here and talk to you about rugby.

Serena (35:25.506)
We can do that off camera, probably really boring for most people.

Sally (35:27.664)
So yeah, like connect with the old friends, go deep with current friends, improv and then we'll see where we are.

Serena (35:37.536)
Love it. Well, let's check in on that. So we've got a few things to check in with over the next few weeks, which we will pick up as the series goes on. But for now, absolutely gorgeous conversation. Thank you so much. As usual, we could talk about this forever, but we won't bore you. We're going to go now and we will see you in the next episode. So thank you for listening.

Sally (35:54.8)
See you in the next episode. Bye, thanks for listening.

Serena (35:57.15)
Thank