S4/E4 The Role of Nature in Health & Wellbeing

In this episode, we explore the profound impact of nature on behavior change and mental health. We chat about our personal experiences with nature, the concept of green prescribing, and the importance of connection to nature for emotional regulation and wellbeing. Our conversation highlights the healing power of nature, the challenges some individuals face in accessing it (or even enjoying it!), and the need for personalized approaches to integrating nature into mental health practices.  We do hope you'll join us! 

Serena’s Links
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/serenapsychologist/
Website: https://thepsychologyschool.co/

Sally’s Links
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sallygarozzomindmentor/
Website: https://www.sallygarozzo.com

Transcript

Serena (00:00.056)
Hello Sally, it's lovely to see you here today again we are back with episode 4 of what the bleepers behaviour change and today you know what I'm going to say it's a really important topic because I say this about all of the topics that we look at but today we're looking at something very close to my heart and I believe yours as well because today we're going to dig into nature.

And we're going to dig into the importance of nature and how that might facilitate our behaviour change. So for me, this is a really, really big topic. There's no way that we can be exhaustive in this conversation because it does, it just kind of starts to lend itself to so many different types of conversation that we could have that start to leak into mental health and wellbeing as well as that behaviour change aspect.

But tell me about what nature means to you. Let's just get the conversation going. I think we had a very interesting experience that you could tell us all about to kick us off.

Sally (01:00.879)
Yeah.

Sally (01:07.398)
Well, thank you for that lead in Serena. Nature, think, well, first of all, don't you just love nature and the way that it makes you feel. There's something weird going on with nature. Well, I say weird, but, you know, having done some research into the power of nature, I kind of get it now. And as a result, it really has formed part of

my wellbeing practice and I think because it has, when I went to this conference at the weekend, I went to the UK hypnosis conference in Heathrow, right next door to Heathrow airport, right? Had a runway view, but it was more like a car park view. And I really, really, so on the first day we were there, you know, you're just kind of like finding your feet. It's all a bit.

Serena (01:56.483)
Bye.

Sally (02:06.05)
It can be a bit fraught. It's the initial stages of settling into a three-day program. You're in that fight-flight mode a bit. You're trying to connect with new people. You're assessing yourself, not trying too hard, but trying a little bit because you want to connect. It can be bit overly social. Sometimes you need a place to decompress. Thankfully, I was staying at the hotel.

I felt really sorry for the people that weren't staying at the hotel because there was literally nowhere, nowhere nature, nature-y anyway. was such, it's just total concrete. You know, you're on the A4, you've got the car park, you've got the runway and then nowhere in the car park was there any, I mean, I think there was one tree actually and I found that tree and I thought, right, let's latch onto that.

that tree for a little bit of grounding. But yeah, I found myself on that first day having to go outside quite a lot to just decompress and to, you know, root down and get grounded and without there being anywhere that, and this is how important nature is, I suppose, to get nature into some of our buildings, you know, into some of our parking lots.

Serena (03:14.809)
Hmm.

Sally (03:31.14)
where, especially where humans are going to be staying for a long period of time, you know, like a hotel or if you're doing a conference, then I think it's really important to acknowledge, especially from like the conference organizers, and I will be putting this forward to them, how important nature is to actually facilitate the changes that they're trying to get us to make. You know, cause you're there to learn, you're there to grow, you're there to...

change and if it's not the right environment that's conducive to change then it can be harder I think to feel relaxed. I don't know about you but I learn best when I'm relaxed. If I'm not relaxed because I don't feel connected. Like to me nature is about connection. Connection to our, to who we are. You know we're carbon-based life forms.

Serena (04:11.768)
Mm. Yeah.

Serena (04:19.18)
Right, yeah.

Sally (04:27.41)
and nature is... I always say we are not a part of nature, we are nature and so in order to feel human we need that connection with nature, so yeah.

Serena (04:43.492)
Well it's funny that you mentioned connection because connection comes up a lot in the literature around nature as well. But it comes at that from a couple of different perspectives. One would be just that inherent connection, as you've said, connection to nature itself. And that's interesting to dig down on a little bit because... So...

I feel the same or similar in terms of how you've described it, a similar affinity for nature. I seek it out and I've always said the phrase I've used, I've maybe even said it here on the podcast, that for me nature is my church. Like it's a form of like almost worship. Like I have to do it. I have to, I need it on a soul level. I need to be in nature. And I've noticed that for me,

that's maybe going off on a little bit of a tangent. But during periods of my life that I found particularly challenging, I've, I'm one of those in particular, which I won't go into too much detail about, but when I was really in deep grief, it was because of a bereavement, I needed it. I needed it daily. I needed to be in the space, in a nature space. And so every day,

spent hours walking in nature and it was a real solve. It was a real balm for the soul for me to the point where I needed it. It's like I needed that hit in my veins. I needed to be in the space, in the green space around trees, in the woods. So there is that, so kind of going back to the topic I was saying about connection, there is that inherent connection that people may feel to nature. But interestingly,

I mean, nature is part of what happens in terms of social prescribing or green prescribing, which is something that we do here in the UK, where you are essentially able to have nature prescribed to you as part of supporting you and your mental health and wellbeing. I have to say it's not maybe very well known. It's not mandatory. It's not a mandatory part of any treatment pathway, but it can be offered to people.

Sally (06:39.59)
Mm.

Serena (07:04.482)
And part of that, obviously it's not exhaustive again, but part of the reason that we do that is because of connection. And that means also connection to other people in spaces that are nature-based. For example, people might be offered things like horticultural activities, like for example, going to an allotment with a group of people and doing stuff in nature, but together with other people in nature, things like forest bathing.

Sally (07:16.624)
Yeah.

Serena (07:32.856)
but shinrin yoku, which is what it's called, I think officially, you know, might do that with other people. So there might be things that are offered to you that are nature based. It's that twofold aspect, connection to nature itself, and possibly being connected to others in the space as well. And that can really enhance that sense of wellbeing. And that's a real mindful activity to maybe engage in as well.

Sally (07:52.922)
Yeah.

Sally (08:00.622)
Yeah, there's something so healing about being in nature, isn't there? I remember my first foray into exploring nature was when I moved up north and it was different. I lived in a small market town and there was lots of access to paths and woodland and rivers and trees. And I just found myself

Serena (08:05.284)
you

Sally (08:29.75)
every day driving out and going for a hike, a short hike, you know, half an hour or something, not very long at all, just to set myself up for the day. And I was studying, no way, I was a singing teacher at the time and I used to take my iPod with me back in the day when you had an iPod. And I found myself not really wanting to listen to any kind of music on a nature walk, which

Serena (08:49.156)
you

Sally (08:58.502)
felt quite different and I was like, huh, that's really interesting. Like, why is that? Normally, you know, on a train or because I had to come from that kind of environment where I'd be computing, commuting up to London and everyone had their, iPods, is it iPods in and earbuds in and stuff. But now I find myself just wanting to be with my thoughts.

And I suppose, you know, when you said that nature was very healing for you when you were going through that time of bereavement, I thought to myself, what did it give you in terms of, like, how did you experience yourself during that time as you were walking through nature? What was going on in your mind and in your body to help you?

Serena (09:40.568)
Hmm.

Serena (09:50.786)
really good question. Yeah, it's a really good question. Thank you for asking that. So for me, it relates to this idea, I don't know if you've heard of something called the biofilia hypothesis. So Wilson 1984, I think termed this, produced this terminology. And it's this idea that humans have an affinity for nature, and it promotes emotional and physiological restoration. And I think for me,

That's a huge part of it is that just being there's something about being in nature that is that I find calming. So it's just that there's very little stimuli. It's it's it feels free because you're not in the confines of walls and sounds pretty basic to describe it in that way, but just not being around technology in your home.

the distractions of home, the distractions of an urban space even, it feels spacious. But for me, I think actually, and I'm really glad that you asked the question, because it's not something I wrote in my notes as well, I love going off-piste, but it makes me feel, it made me feel, and I think this is a part of it when you think about it more broadly, maybe for other people, I don't know if someone's listening, if you relate to it, I'd love to know. But for me, it feels...

like it's that really significant reminder that you are part of something bigger.

you are just a part of something that's bigger than you. And I think also unconsciously part of that is realising that nature also has a cycle. So for me when I was experiencing bereavement, to feel like there's something bigger, that I'm only a tiny part of something that's really big and expansive, was healing to me. As well as seeing nature in

Serena (11:52.684)
a full cycle of life through to death and rebirth. And so it really, so it does in many ways tap back into that biofilia hypothesis as well for me, because it just really was incredibly healing in terms of that emotional and the physiological restoration that I needed at the time. And that would certainly kind of fit into lots of the other research as well around that emotional regulation that we get from being in nature.

Sally (11:56.262)
Yeah.

Serena (12:19.62)
stress reduction, we know that being in nature does reduce stress, that people tend to have a quicker recovery once they've immersed themselves in nature. I don't know, do you relate to any of that? How do you? Because you're nodding, mean people can't see us. We're nodding at each other quite a lot. So does any of that resonate with you?

Sally (12:23.258)
Yeah.

Sally (12:26.662)
Yeah.

Sally (12:34.948)
Yeah.

Sally (12:42.168)
It really does. Nature for me is a reset. You know, I talk about electric, the electric health model as well, that I learned from Eileen McCusick, and there is this idea of grounding where we, when we're in nature, especially when we walk barefoot in nature, we're absorbing those negative ions from the earth.

and they really help to make the blood flow better, it's anti-inflammatory. We breathe in phytoncides when we're in nature as well, which are the plant's antibacterial properties. And when we breathe them in, we get that dose of, you know, it boosts the immune system. So there's really, really lots and lots of reasons to get out in nature.

you know, the resets being out in the fresh air. For me, I need a lot of cold on my head. When I'm in front of technology quite a lot, when I'm on my phone or when my head's really busy with knowledge, or even if I've just got something going on that I'm trying to process, I feel all the electromagnetic energy in my head and it feels like heat. So when I go out in nature, or even just go outside actually,

Serena (13:43.971)
Boom.

Sally (14:05.946)
the air, if the air is nice and crisp and cold, I can feel it sort of just blowing all of that kind of heat away. So I mean, that's, it's a slightly different angle to come at it with. It's more of an electric model, but you know, it's just how you think about these things and what you sense in your body. Brilliant for like hot flushes and you know, anything that's kind of, that requires regulating.

Serena (14:32.408)
Yeah. Yeah.

Sally (14:34.894)
you know, regulating your hormones, regulating your nervous system, because being out in nature is actually co-regulating. So, know, yeah, yeah, exactly. And if you've, if you are living alone, if you don't have a partner, if you're feeling isolated, just getting out in nature is a way of helping you to co-regulate.

Serena (14:39.428)
Hmm.

Serena (14:43.436)
Yeah, it is for me. Yeah, it is for a lot of people, I think. Yeah.

Sally (15:00.386)
know, nature has a heartbeat and our heart is always looking to regulate with another heart. And so by getting out there, you know, talk, talking to dog walkers, talking to dogs, I don't have my dog anymore. it's like, it's really lovely to, sometimes you have to be a bit mindful because sometimes, you know, dog walkers have to go out every single day and they, they might not be as enjoying it as much as you are.

Serena (15:00.632)
Mm.

Serena (15:14.542)
Okay.

Serena (15:29.52)
So yeah, there's really good research around a lot of the things that you've said. So we know from the research that there's definitely, you know, some kind of very significant research around how this impacts your mood positively and that emotional regulation. So helps improve your mood, generally speaking, lowers kind of the expression of depression and lowers anxiety or can. What's interesting about that

Sally (15:54.117)
Yeah.

Serena (15:57.63)
for me. So someone who teaches this as well, not just, because I often mention that I teach healthcare professionals how they integrate these things. And this is a really nice one to think about because when you're looking at helping people, it's a really easy thing to prescribe to somebody to ask them to consider, have you been out in nature recently? And I noticed when I've been working with my clients that actually sometimes

it's like checking in with them that no they haven't really done that in a little while that might be contributing to why they feel kind of off-kilter. So from a change perspective if you're helping someone regulate their emotions, reduce their stress because we know that being in nature reduces stress and all those beautiful things that we've just talked about it's a really simple thing to offer to help someone. With that said what I'm very aware of so interestingly I just taught it I taught

Sally (16:33.232)
Yeah.

Serena (16:55.016)
a nature session to my students a few weeks ago at university. So I'm currently teaching a mindfulness course to students at university. And one of the sessions we had was on nature. And I said to the students, I flat out refuse to show you a picture of a tree on PowerPoint.

Sally (17:18.096)
Yeah

Serena (17:18.21)
Like we are going into nature, there's no way we're doing this on a screen in a classroom. So we did watch a video and actually I showed the students a video about wild swimming and we had a discussion around it. So I showed a video of a beautiful soul called Gilly MacArthur who's a very well known cold water coach.

who's phenomenal and also she shared a beautiful story about her connection with nature and how it's helped her and the cold has helped us. It's going back to what you said. And we had a discussion around that. We kind of had a beautiful discussion around green and blue spaces and how they can help us. And then I took them out into the Arboretum in Nottingham. And I gave them nature-based tasks, nature-based mindfulness tasks.

and some of those are really beautiful like creating a leaf mandala, some of them climb trees. I offered people the opportunity to do some grounding so I asked them if they'd like to take their shoes and socks off. Now you can imagine saying this to university students is going to be quite confronting. So out of the group two did do it which I was so excited by that even two people did this.

My point being is part of the discussion that we had and what I had to get them to see was when you're prescribing this, so if we're thinking about this from, if you're a clinician listening to this or someone who has the opportunity to offer nature as something that might help them in their change and facilitate them in some way, not everyone will respond to it in the same way. So you and I are arguably biased and the research maybe has that bias as well. But

Sally (19:05.862)
stream.

Serena (19:08.236)
First up, not everyone has access to nature and we have to be mindful of that. So when you talk about those urban spaces, some people are very trapped in urban spaces. And so we have to be mindful that when we're prescribing these things that we know that people can access them in some way because it's often seen as positive, but actually it's also seen, it's going back to that idea that we've talked about before, which is, it a luxury?

Sally (19:15.951)
Yeah.

Sally (19:33.808)
Yeah.

Serena (19:34.052)
And is it a luxury that people, some people just do not have access to if they're in a high rise building, they're have to try and work harder to have that access to nature. And also when I asked this of my students, I got them to discuss it and think about it. So I was getting them to think about how you mindfully might work with people and what that would look like. The applied nature of nature. Is that there were students in the group who...

didn't feel the affinity at all, who didn't feel comfortable in nature. It was really interesting to really engage with people in those groups and get people to discuss why and what they found confronting. And it was interesting to see that some students talked about the fact that so much space made them nervous. And actually, lots of students talked about how they really don't seek nature out at all. And actually, they seek out urban spaces. That's where they find their comfort. And so I just want to

Sally (20:19.674)
Yeah.

Sally (20:29.924)
I guess it-

Serena (20:30.916)
Bring that to the discussion. So we always have to be mindful of how we approach this. Again, it's not a panacea for change. It's not going to be the same for everyone.

Sally (20:40.536)
No, and guess it depends on what era of your life you're in as well because I know for me, didn't think about nature at all when I was in my teens and early twenties. I just wanted pubs, bars, shopping, friends.

Serena (20:56.27)
Thank

Sally (20:58.702)
all of that thing, you because you're trying to define yourself more socially, aren't you? But having said that, you know, I do know of some young people who are real nature buffs and can't think of anything more wonderful than just living out in the sticks. One of my friends, all she ever wanted to do was go and live out in the sticks and marry a farmer, you know, and have lots of animals around her. But she was a Taurus, very grounded, very root chakra.

Serena (21:00.099)
Yeah.

Serena (21:03.416)
Yes.

Sally (21:27.116)
you know, a lot of, I know this isn't probably very science based, but you know, these are models that people understand loosely, don't they, the star signs and the chakra system. So yeah, it sort of depends really, and certainly my nature requirements have gone up since hitting midlife and menopause and all those like physical changes that you go through and depends where your values are.

Serena (21:54.82)
Yeah.

Sally (21:55.482)
you know, and as you say, for someone walking through an empty field or a forest might make them feel very lonely, might make them feel very disconnected because actually what they're seeking is real human connection and having a laugh and finding their place in the social hierarchy and all of that stuff. But when you get to a point, I guess when you're a bit older, maybe you have deeper

Serena (22:14.979)
Yeah.

Sally (22:21.582)
things to process mentally and emotionally, maybe nature does become more inviting. But yeah, I think what you said there is very key and definitely something that needs to be highlighted in that it's not for everyone. But also within that, know, I gave someone a consultation, a 19 year old, a consultation ages ago who was feeling very disconnected.

Serena (22:34.254)
Yeah.

Sally (22:50.458)
very depressed, wouldn't get out of bed. And, you know, when I recommended just going out for a walk around the block, it was like, it didn't really compute that that would help in any way because the disconnection is like so big, so vast. I don't know whether that's just because of.

Serena (23:07.299)
Bye.

Sally (23:17.978)
being so involved with technology and so involved with the phone that you, you know, how does that change your brain so much so that you can't even relate to nature at all? You know, these are sort of questions that are coming up now, aren't they? I don't really know the answer to that, but the way that technology is influencing our brains and our desires and yeah. I don't know if you've got any.

Serena (23:26.34)
Hmm.

Serena (23:45.636)
god. Well, god. I think that's, I think actually we should do a whole episode on phone use in the next series because it's, so from a behaviour change perspective, using a phone can be really useful in some ways if you're using it to help you have nudges or particular apps that you're using. And I think we can all think of various apps that are very detrimental to our ability to change. So maybe we'll repark back because that's a whole juicy-

Sally (24:01.819)
Yeah.

Sally (24:13.829)
Yeah.

Serena (24:14.772)
to have but you're right I think you've raised so many important things there so I love the fact that you've picked up on and it goes hand-in-hand with I think what I was trying to illustrate by it has to be individualized as well just that we you have to check in with that person see where they're at what is their filter to this like you said their age what they come to the table with their social demographics where they live their finances and if you start kind of waffling on about

Sally (24:27.269)
Yeah.

Serena (24:42.692)
walking or being in nature or grounding, taking your socks off and walking on grass, people are to think you're bonkers depending on where they're at, if they're receptive to that is a whole other question. you have to always, as I always say, meet someone where they're at and kind of find what works for them. With that said, if we can, because there is really good research to support those key things that we know help people.

give people the basis to make maybe some more significant changes in their lives. So if it can help them with their emotional regulation, their mood, we even know that it's really good research around enhancing cognitive function. So for example, there was a study by Berman in 2008, who found that individuals who walked in nature performed better on memory and attention tasks. just, you know, just being out of nature, being able to find the space in nature can enhance those attributes.

So that really kind of powerful unlock for your attention span and the restoration as well. It's essentially, it's something that you can offer people to do for free. There's very little, you know, it's not a drug. It's not putting something into your body that's negative. It's something that you can actively do for free. Hopefully in many ways.

open to everyone, it's not necessarily easy and accessible for everyone and we have to be mindful of that. But it's just, if we can encourage people to do it, to try it and also going back to what you said, I find it sad really that it doesn't occur to everyone in a way.

Sally (26:26.83)
Mmm.

Serena (26:30.082)
because it can just have an incredible impact, which is why it is part of things like green prescribing. It's maybe people who've never had that experience before that find maybe real joy, a joy that they didn't know they could have when they are in nature to do those really simple things, which is why we've got such a movement of kind of this eco-psychology movement, if you like.

nature showing us that it can support those therapeutic interventions as well. I think if we're mindful that we can offer it and and try it and encourage people to try this, you don't know if you don't like it until you try it. So just been really encouraging of that. I was gonna say, yeah, go on Sally, what were you gonna say? I'm totally getting carried away.

Sally (27:10.02)
Yeah.

Sally (27:13.316)
Yeah, that's it.

Sally (27:18.342)
It just something came up for me around the idea of, you know, walking. There's the being in nature component, but there's also the walking component as well. And we know that, you know, 10,000 steps, really good, just this gentle, moderate activity can be so beneficial for our cardiovascular system, our mental clarity and just processing, processing ideas.

Serena (27:29.38)
Mmm.

Sally (27:45.744)
processing, you we go into a kind of hypnosis. In fact, at the hypnosis convention, there's something called active hypnosis that you can do, which is listening to a hypnosis recording whilst walking. You could do it in nature, you could do it in concrete, but what I'm saying is, is the walking element actually is very conducive to the hypnotic state. And when we are in that hypnotic state, we kind of go into that default mode network, that sort of gen,

Serena (28:07.844)
Hmm.

Sally (28:15.162)
general daydreaming, slightly dissociative mode where we can process. You we can think thoughts, can, isn't it where you, you think thoughts and as you're thinking the thoughts, you're kind of number crunching, you're sort of analysing and then it travels down the analytical pathway and gets stored in the long-term memory. So I guess that's where the improved memory perhaps comes from, that activity, that brain activity that walking gives us.

Serena (28:44.961)
Yeah, there's a lot of really interesting research around that, isn't there, about memory and movement. So before we think about wrapping up, is there anything that you'd like to share about, I think, just if we're sharing personal aspects of what we do in terms of nature and what that looks like for us, that would be really interesting. So where do you get your nature hit,

Sally (28:50.075)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Sally (29:08.818)
Well, I I live on the beach. I say I live on the beach. I've got across a very busy road to get there and sometimes that's prohibitive. And I'm really lucky in that I've got access to hills and loads of green space, sort of five, 10 minutes walk away. I find it difficult this time of year because of the darkness, not because of the cold. I don't mind the cold. In fact, going out in nature.

Serena (29:25.476)
Hmm.

Sally (29:36.528)
going out in cold air, you can get some of the same benefits as going into cold water. So if you don't like cold water therapy and that's never gonna be you, don't worry, just go out in the cold air and you'll still get some of the benefits. For me, it's the darkness and just that feeling of not being quite safe, walking in the dark, especially in the countryside.

But I tried it actually and me and my husband put headlamps on and just went for a walk. And honestly, it was fine. There were just loads of dog walkers. It was about 5pm, so it wasn't late late. So I think for me, my takeaway is just get out there. Like I'm so motivated to go for a walk after our conversation. I'm itching to get out into nature now and just go for it because actually I've been up since bloody five o'clock this morning.

Serena (30:25.789)
Nice.

Sally (30:33.446)
preparing for today, preparing for my RTT clients and it's been a lot of screen time so I know for me I'm ready but just something I wanted to come back to the mindfulness aspect and the self-awareness. It's having the self-awareness to know what your body needs and to know that being going out in nature is an option for you because often we don't really feel like it so no I would just want to stay in and sit in front of the telly but actually it's having that

Serena (30:33.7)
Yeah.

Serena (30:39.448)
Yeah.

Serena (30:46.5)
Mmm.

Serena (30:54.862)
Yeah.

Sally (31:03.852)
that self-awareness and the knowledge and the being able to access those levels of discomfort for the sake of your future self knowing that your future self is going to feel better when you come back.

Serena (31:16.536)
Yeah, I feel like that about exercise. Any exercise. You will never regret a session. It's just getting your ass out the door to go through it. It's a problem.

Sally (31:20.56)
Yeah. Yeah.

Sally (31:25.862)
So overcoming those barriers, isn't it? Like maybe we could speak to that in terms of what are barriers to getting out in nature? Is it the footwear? Is it the clothing? Is it? Yeah, so much.

Serena (31:31.908)
Good

Serena (31:42.389)
So, I mean, nature for me, I'll just say briefly because I'm not going to kind of waffle on. I mean, I'm in nature every day. I fortunately have a dog, the love of my life. So I have to walk him. So he gets walked twice a day. He gets a lunchtime walk and an evening walk, can rain or shine. Rain, he would rather not walk in, but that's life. So I'm, you know, I've had him eight years.

Sally (31:52.996)
Hehehehehe

Serena (32:10.284)
he gets walked twice a day so I'm out in nature a lot and it's a real joy and actually it beautifully punctuates my day it gets me out it gets me away from the screen whether I like it or not I have to stop work I have to go out and I've worked really hard to not have my phone kind of on when I'm when I'm doing that I will listen to a podcast or music when I'm walking but I'm out in nature every day

And on weekends I do much longer walks, that's kind of my joy is to go on big long walks at the weekend somewhere, somewhere hilly. Another thing I do is swimming, as you know I'm not going to bang on about that either here because I could go on and do the evangelistic chat about cold water swimming but yeah swim all through the year. So I'm going into my third winter.

So go, yeah, go to my local lake. So I've got a little lake about a four minutes drive away, which I'm really fortunate to have. So there my nature hits really. And I really, I know I couldn't function without them. For me, they are part of what keeps me sane, balanced. I need that connection to nature. I need to have it. It's just so cup filling for me.

Sally (33:11.142)
Mm.

Sally (33:16.326)
Mm.

Serena (33:30.432)
it's like a real, it's like I'm plugging back in. So yeah, absolutely crave it. So yeah, yeah.

Sally (33:36.728)
Well, you are, you are plugging back in when you go out. It's yeah, you literally are. Is there anything that you want to change or need to change or need to rejig?

Serena (33:45.236)
Yeah, as we wrap up I'd love to talk about those two little things so what we both want to do what we're gonna take away Well, do you know what? struggling with this one because it's something that I'm really I mean I haven't got it perfect I'm trying to think of something that I can do that's an enhancement. I'm actually generally happy with how I

with my relationship with nature. If anything, what I hope is that I can just deepen it over time because it's so deeply important to me. I know, I know what I did do this year. So previously, I, with a group of women that I know here, I did start to do every super moon. We would do a moon swim, a midnight moon swim.

And so I think it is a little bit chilly now, not everyone's up for that, but I think I definitely want to reintroduce the night swims because they were really special. So yeah, that for me. How about you? What will you change based on your situation?

Sally (34:45.542)
Mmm.

Sally (34:49.168)
Well, I'm just thinking, why don't we live closer to each other? Because I want to be in that WhatsApp group.

Serena (34:54.116)
I know! Yeah, I wish you'd have moved. Anyway, well I want to live near the coast one day so who knows what will happen.

Sally (34:59.97)
It's an abomination!

Who knows exactly. A couple of years ago, it might have been last year actually, I started to do little bit of orienteering.

Serena (35:15.454)
I remember that, I was so impressed. They look fun.

Sally (35:20.503)
It was fun, it was fun and you know I got the map, I got the compass, I got the little eye thing, I got all the gear and just stopped doing it. All the gear, no idea and me and a friend went out and we tried it on our own without the guide and we just couldn't do it, we just couldn't do it and we were like sod it let's just guess where we are but for me I'm a bit nerdy, I don't know whether it's like a

Serena (35:30.381)
Some ideas.

Sally (35:50.438)
a neuro spicy thing or if it's like I don't know whatever I love don't laugh at me I get a bit of a kick when I see public footpath or like a little gate I'm like it's like I want to take a photo of it and I want to like map it out or I want to explore I don't know if it's a Sagittarius thing but I've got a real explorer streak within me and I love finding routes and paths

Serena (36:04.322)
Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Okay.

Serena (36:11.716)
Yeah

Serena (36:17.892)
Thank

Sally (36:20.132)
And I love finding my way back to things. I've got a really good sense of direction, actually. I'm like a homing pigeon. No, I didn't get lost.

Serena (36:27.638)
You just say you got lost. You just couldn't find your way on the map before.

Sally (36:36.262)
no, no, no, I just couldn't read, like, I couldn't figure out where we were on the... I couldn't figure out if it was, the left or the right path that we were on, but yeah, if I'm...

Serena (36:47.578)
But you're saying you've got to show him on peace obviously.

Sally (36:51.034)
Yeah, I'm good at improvising, but not good at, yeah. I mean, those bloody orienteering maps are so detailed, aren't they?

Serena (36:53.358)
you

Serena (36:58.956)
So you're going to take that up again. You want to do a little bit more exploring, you think.

Sally (37:03.514)
I think what it is, first of all, I would like to go on longer walks, but I've had a back issue. So that's been preventative, but I'm working on that now. and I, for me, it's about finding new paths all the time. Yeah. So I'm gonna, I'm gonna find, before we record the next batch of episodes, I'm gonna find some new paths. There you go. That's my thing.

Serena (37:15.78)
I like that.

Serena (37:24.5)
Love it. What a fantastic way to end. love it. So I get the feeling as with everything that we talk about, we could talk about this for a lot longer than we are, but we're going to reel it in at this point. I hope people have taken value away from that. If there's anything else about nature that you'd like for us to touch upon, I have a feeling that there'll also be a part two to this summer in the future. And then let us know. Otherwise, thank you for an amazing chat as usual, Sally. Always delightful. I'll see you next time.

Sally (37:35.622)
Yeah.

Sally (37:48.762)
Thank you. thank you, Serena. Bye.