S4/E5 How The Mind Affects The Body

In this episode, we delve into the intricate relationship between the mind and body, emphasizing the importance of the mind-body connection in behavior change and physical health. We chat about how mindset influences health outcomes, the power of perception, and the role of language in shaping our experiences. Through various studies and personal anecdotes, we highlight the potential for positive change through mindful communication and self-awareness, encouraging you to reflect on your own inner dialogue and its impact on your well-being.

Serena’s Links
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/serenapsychologist/
Website: https://thepsychologyschool.co/

Sally’s Links
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sallygarozzomindmentor/
Website: https://www.sallygarozzo.com

Transcript

Serena (00:03.128)
Hello Sally, it's so lovely to see you again. We are back for episode five of What the Bleefer's Behaviour Changed today. There is definitely, I already know there was gonna be a part two of this conversation because it is something that is, I know people are probably tired of me saying it, but it's so important and such a juicy, juicy topic.

Sally (00:19.365)
Yeah.

Serena (00:29.774)
So today we are gonna be focused on the mind-body connection and we're gonna talk a little bit more about physical health and how mind-body may impact that, which obviously at its core is behaviour change because behaviour change is needed in order for someone to have power and autonomy over their own, maybe changes that they want to make in their own health.

So today we want to dig down on what we mean by this mind body connection. So maybe let's start with that. I hope I'm not gonna throw you in the deep end here, but what comes up, here you go, plus strap in. What does that mean to you? I could ask you another question actually. This is a question I asked my students when I looked at this with them. Mind body connection, can one exist without the other?

Sally (00:56.197)
Yeah.

Sally (01:04.836)
Here we go.

Serena (01:27.268)
she's so cute.

Sally (01:28.134)
Can one exist without the other? Well, I'm going to say no. I'm going to say that you cannot cut your head off. Your head cannot exist in a silo. Your body cannot. You can try. And actually, you know, we do, we do end up cutting off from our bodies. I mean, this is, this is going a little bit in a different direction, but...

a lot of the clients that I see have done a brilliant job, not through any fault of their own, but when feelings are deemed unsavoury, unworthy or unpalatable, or you're not supposed to be angry, you're not supposed to be scared, you're not supposed to be disappointed or anything like that, we do a great job of disconnecting from our feelings and going up into our head.

And then we exist with this constant worry, this constant overwhelm, this constant like, almost like trying to guard against uncertainty by worrying. And that's what worry is. It's like a protection against uncertainty because we're not, we don't know how to be in our bodies. so healing is actually restoring that mind-body connection. I mean, that's one topic that is

Serena (02:48.536)
Yeah.

Sally (02:48.742)
probably deserving of a whole episode, but the other side of it is really how the mind influences the body and how the body influences the mind. And yeah, of course, I don't think, what was the question again?

Serena (03:03.364)
can one exist without the other? I mean it's an existential question in many ways because I can just, sorry I'm already jumping in here, but from a physical perspective no because your brain serves a very important function which is kind of keeping your body alive and if your brain dead then your body is just alive but existing.

Sally (03:07.257)
Ahem.

Serena (03:32.428)
and vice versa. when you kind of start to dig on this, there's so many different ways you can go because you can start to go very, very spiritual with your view of what this is, very religious about the view of what this is, dualistic in thinking, we can start to even talk about things like near death experiences and that separation of mind and body, what is the mind, what is consciousness. So I think it's very like you and I to go that existential route.

Sally (03:44.154)
Yeah.

Sally (03:58.982)
Yeah, let's just get there.

Serena (04:01.74)
And yet, let's just get that out there, let us race away. But actually our focus, I guess why I wanted to say that was I want to acknowledge that there are many ways that we can start to look at this. You can look at it very philosophically, like I said, from the existential point of view. But we want to keep it fairly grounded today because we're going to focus more on physical health. So I guess what we're saying from that perspective, certainly from my perspective, is we have this beautiful symbiotic relationship that I'd like to explore today.

Sally (04:21.317)
Yeah.

Serena (04:31.88)
because there is in my mind a beautiful symbiosis between what's happening in mind and body. And I really believe that the more we can make sense of that for ourselves, the more we can tap into that, the more that we can realise what power we have over our thoughts, our thinking, and therefore the impact of that thinking, of our thoughts, of our beliefs, and how that may then impact

our physicality, our physical body and therefore our health is truly magical. We don't even need to go existential today because there's such beautiful magic in just looking at what that looks like and looking at the amazing research around mind-body connection as I've just described it.

Sally (05:07.012)
Yeah.

Sally (05:14.523)
Yeah.

Sally (05:21.326)
Yeah, completely agree. You know, having just come back from the hypnosis convention, we did, there was a lot of lectures actually on pain relief and how we can tap into mindset and language to dissociate from certain parts of the body that are painful, you know, especially for people with chronic pain. I have chronic pain in my lower back.

And it's funny how you end up living with chronic pain, but there's part of you that sort of checks out from it. So unless you have a flare up, you don't really notice it because you're tuned out from it. We can actually tap into that. We can do that consciously through hypnosis to almost like fuzz up that connection between the limbic system and the cerebral cortex.

Because what happens is you get pain that goes straight to the limbic system and then you interpret that, you kind of create a story around that and it's that story that keeps you in that loop, know, kind of like body, brain alarm sort of thing. And so with some of the hypnotic work that I do, you can kind of get in between that alarm in the body and the story in the mind.

Serena (06:40.27)
Right.

Sally (06:44.954)
Which is, yeah, I mean, it's like you're preaching to the converted here.

Serena (06:51.377)
Yeah, I had a feeling. It's interesting what you said because there's really good research around this in terms of when we start to work on things like our mindset, our thoughts, our perceptions, that there's really beautiful research around the impact that that can have on our physical health, on our health outcomes, like really specifically some really, you know, just amazing research to show how that might impact things like cardiovascular health.

And like you said pain a lot of really interesting research around pain as well. So ultimately Just what we're saying really I guess is shining a light on the fact that We can do a lot

It goes back to mindset. actually, we looked at this at the very start of the series, didn't we, about kind of what that means to foster a positive mindset. But this is definitely a part of today's conversation is thinking about the kind of mindset that you want to have in a way that may positively impact you. And what does that look like? So if we're just feeling or we're just saying for a moment, can we just all take a step back, maybe just for ourselves as you're listening to this and think about

Sally (07:53.125)
Yeah.

Serena (08:03.192)
the impact that you think your thoughts are having on you in terms of, not obviously all the things that we've looked at before, how you see the world, how you respond to external stimuli, but particularly your health, your physical body, your physical health and how that might impact you. Then we start to, like I said, get really, really juicy about what's possible.

Sally (08:27.182)
Yeah, and you know from having read the book that you recommended, The Expectation Effect, also Ellen Langer's book that we're reading at the moment, The Mindful Body, that you've recommended, it's part of book club in in Psych Lab, we can see how expectations will impact our physical experiences. So think there was one study done with people, I can't remember the actual details, but it was to do with

being a pilot or imagining that you are a pilot and the setup is everything to do with, you know, looking like you are a pilot. Okay, so you've got the uniform on, you're in a simulator, you've been told you are a pilot and it's expected that pilots have better eyesight than people who are not pilots. And I think they did an eye test and it turned out people who had been subjected to the stimulus of being a pilot turned out they had

Serena (09:09.25)
Mmm.

Sally (09:27.254)
much better eyesight than those that didn't. Something like that. You probably know more about it than I do.

Serena (09:31.02)
Yeah, I think there are so many juicy research studies that express something similar. again, what you're illustrating with that study is just the very fact that you tell someone something, so you're altering their perception in some way about something. But what lots of people don't realize, I think, is that

Sally (09:47.269)
Yeah.

Serena (09:54.334)
Having a different perception why this study that you've mentioned is so interesting is having a different perception of something so just changing someone's perception changes something physical. It's not just changing your mindset and having you feel better because we know there's a lot of research to link this to reduce stress for example and we start to look at kind of stuff around placebo which we can look at later but

Sally (10:04.869)
Yeah.

Serena (10:17.496)
There is a marked difference in physical health, which is why I mentioned cardiovascular before. Another really good study, which I talk about a lot, and it was in some of the behaviour change work that you've done as well before, Sally, is that really interesting study called Mind Over Milkshakes, which you might remember by Crum 2011. And it was just that really simple study where the same group of people were given a shake.

Sally (10:38.916)
yeah.

Serena (10:46.22)
And in one situation in the first experimental condition, so essentially they were given exactly the same shake that was exactly the same calories. I don't remember the exact calories, but say for example, it was a 300 calorie shake, but they were told in the first condition that actually it was a really healthy shake, that it was only 140 calories. It was very healthy for them and they were to drink the shake.

And then in the second experimental condition, they were given exactly the same 300 calorie shake, but this time told it was a dense shake. It was heavily laden with calories. It was 650 calories. Bearing in mind, physically the shake is exactly the same. There's nothing different. But what do you know? In the first condition where they thought it was healthier, they were hungrier. Their body actually produced ghrelin, which is known as the hunger hormone. So they perceived themselves as

being hungry and actually their body responded as if it had consumed something that was of a lower calorific value versus the other experimental condition where they believed it was a really satiating shake, it was really heavily laden with calories, so they felt full and their body did not produce the same amount or much of the ghrelin. So in other words, what we're saying is your body responds, your physical health.

Sally (11:50.843)
Yeah.

Serena (12:12.866)
Your physicality responds to what you perceive to be true.

Sally (12:17.902)
so so so bonkers and i absolutely love it i love this stuff

Serena (12:22.005)
I know! Same! I know! Isn't it amazing? I love that you love it.

Sally (12:28.678)
because it has far reaching consequences, doesn't it? Like knowing this stuff has actually really changed my relationship to food as well. I read that in the expectation effect, that study. And I think he comes to the understanding, if you wanna lose weight, eat, like eat food that's gonna really satisfy you.

Serena (12:37.453)
Aha!

Yeah. Yeah.

Serena (12:53.112)
Yeah.

Sally (12:55.268)
And then he mentioned that study and that it's all about our perception. And yeah, I mean, that's how in a way I've kind of restored my relationship to food is by eating what I want, making sure that every meal I have feels luxurious and filling and then forget about food, you know.

Serena (13:16.196)
Mmm.

Sally (13:22.894)
in between sort of thing, like let your body just do its thing. But yeah, that perfectly demonstrates how the mind plays tricks on us, basically.

Serena (13:26.84)
Yeah.

Serena (13:37.73)
Well, yeah, this is going into placebo. think before we go, I did want just want to say, because we mentioned that book a few times, so people do want to read it. It's a fantastic book, The Expectation Effect by David Robson, and I highly recommend it. And just so many great studies in there that really look at, so The Expectation Effect is placebo in many ways. It's that idea that you tell someone something, you tell them

Sally (13:45.359)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Serena (14:06.712)
something that alters their perception of what's really known to be true, but someone's perception will match and they will respond in accordance with what you're telling them, whether it's true or not. So I'm explaining that in a very convoluted way as a psychology lecturer. But yeah, this idea of placebo is so fascinating. And that beautiful expression of

Sally (14:19.792)
Yeah.

their physiology changes.

Serena (14:34.146)
and getting people to really think about what they can do then. So like you said, you've used a really great example of how you use it and incorporate it into your life in a like a logical way, in a mindful way, and something that you can incorporate really easy into your everyday life in terms of how you relate to your eating. There's another really amazing study actually that might open up a little bit more discussion around that. And this is one of Dr. Ellen Langer's.

studies and I think I may have mentioned this on a podcast before but it's very much a part of this conversation. So this idea of changing people's perspective, perception, looking at that mind-body connection and this is the famous counterclockwise experiment from 1979. So this is where Dr. Alan Langer and her experimental team set up a condition whereby men, it was men at the time only, in their 70s and 80s, so late 70s and 80s,

were asked to live in an accommodation for a week that was set up to make it feel like it had been or set up so it looked like it may have looked 20 years ago. So these men were going in in their late 70s and 80s, but they'd been asked to stay in accommodation that had now had, you know, all of the decor changed. had...

magazines and books in the apartment that were from the era from 20 years before. They had records and music playing that was from 20 years before. They even put things like, think, like ads on TV and television programs from 20 years before. And they were asked to live there for a week. And during that week, they were observed, there were observational studies, but they also did a series of really in-depth health analyses. And what they found was after just one week that

all of the participants were observed to function better physically. So there things that they couldn't do a week before, like kind of maybe walking up high steps, their movement, their pace was significantly better, had significantly improved. Their vision had improved, their hearing had improved and their memory had improved. So there were significant measured health markers that were different after just one week.

Serena (16:51.832)
whereby all that had changed was their environment. Literally, so again, changing the perceptions of those people to have their perception change around what then they were capable of and their body responding to that in this really, really powerful way. And again, when I think of this, I just think, and I think I have said this in another podcast, but what are we doing to set people up?

Sally (16:54.927)
Yeah.

Serena (17:18.636)
in terms of what we do, terms of how we speak to people, what environments we create, how are we speaking to ourselves? If your inner dialogue is, can't, or I'm too old to do that, or whatever kind of blocks you feel that you have about yourself, what is that doing to inhibit your function or your physical health in some way?

Sally (17:26.137)
Hmm.

Sally (17:38.926)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I think that study really hits home and you can't read that without going, like, but then people, some, sometimes there's a backlash to that because what you find, and this is really, really interesting is people go, are you saying it's all in my head then? Like this chronic illness that I've got, are you saying it's all in my head? And so I think,

Serena (17:50.829)
Yeah.

Sally (18:09.302)
there's that, it's definitely a, you know, a balance that needs to be, no, I'm not saying it's all in your head. I'm just saying that, you know, we have the capacity, the capacity is there to exist differently. And no one's blaming anyone for having, you know, degenerative illness. I've got degenerative illness, but I recognise, and I've recently been working with a,

Serena (18:18.02)
Hmm.

Sally (18:37.862)
physiotherapist around this and around the diagnosis degenerative disc disease it's really scary we know when I got that diagnosis I was like my god that's terrible my spine is crumbling and it's a phrase that no one should use right exactly so there is a responsibility and hopefully things are changing and I Ellen Langer was

Serena (18:52.256)
That's a phrase that no one should use.

Sally (19:05.088)
is calling for mindful hospitals, which I think would be a phenomenal change and would take a huge amount of strain off of our economic burden, because we do, you and when I recognise that, we've been working with the physio and reading the mindful body and really like tuning back into myself and using the visualisation work that we've been learning as well in Psych Lab and

Serena (19:08.109)
Yes.

Serena (19:14.459)
huh.

Sally (19:32.326)
you know, seeing my spine healthy and robust and not going mad. Like I'm not going in the gym and doing loads of dead lifts or anything like that. I am using that sort of hypnotic mindset to really tell myself that the feelings and sensations that I'm feeling are not as a result of my spine collapsing.

because the spine is really robust and so are our organs. They're really like our heart is robust, our brain is robust. You know, and language, mind, the body hears what you're saying to it for sure. All you need to do, you can do a test on yourself and I do this with my clients, imagine sucking a lemon. If you close your eyes and imagine sucking the juice out of a lemon wedge.

you will start to salivate. There's no lemon there. can try it now. can pause the podcast episode. You can close your eyes and you can imagine there's a lemon wedge in the palm of your hand. Bring it up to your mouth and bite down on it and really suck the juice out of the lemon and swill it around and go to town on your visualization and you'll see how you do get

Serena (20:31.181)
Yeah.

Sally (20:50.838)
of a physical response to something imagined. And this has... Go on. Yeah, go on.

Serena (20:55.332)
Like, yeah. Now, as I say, it's so interesting to say that because I tried to illustrate this with my students when I taught them. So I have mentioned this in previous podcasts, but I'm teaching at the moment and now in charge of mindfulness at the university I teach at. So we've got about 60 students doing a mindfulness course. And I try, I wanted to illustrate this very fact of them that just by thinking of something that we have a physical response and physical reactions to what we're.

Sally (21:12.486)
Thank

Serena (21:24.644)
what we're thinking about. So what I actually did, made up, I created a really, I wanted to do something a bit fun as well and different for them. So what I did was I got them to choose by voting their favourite Christmas song. And they actually chose Last Christmas by George Michael. A little wham, a wham. was great. So, you know, in the middle of what was then, I don't know, October, we had Last Christmas, I gave you my heart.

Sally (21:42.448)
Ha! Brilliant.

Serena (21:52.29)
blasting out with big speaker across the lecture hall. But what I set them up to do before, and obviously, you know, just big disclaimer, I got people to self-select in. So I said, if Christmas causes any trauma for you, if there's something that you're uncomfortable about, please choose not to do this exercise, obviously. But what I got the others to do was to close their eyes, put their hands kind of flat on their knee, grounding on the floor. And I asked them to...

go back in time and visualize and walk through Christmas Day when they were a child. I got them to choose an age of about seven or eight. And I got them for the duration of the song to run through the key moments of Christmas Day. And then we were to kind of feed back and talk about that once they had completed it. And it was just fascinating. I mean, what I was hoping to achieve thankfully was achieved, which is...

just how people felt so absorbed that their body had a physical reaction to being there as a child at Christmas. And feeling the feeling of Christmas. You know, some people talked in a really beautiful way about maybe grandparents that they don't have anymore, but they felt like they were in the room with them and they had a physical response to that. Hearing certain things, hearing the noise of their house, smelling what Christmas smelt like.

Sally (22:55.503)
Hmm.

Sally (23:12.166)
Hmm.

Serena (23:15.48)
And they're kind of really embodying that sense of what it could feel like. And again, that was just through changing, know, putting on a song, so actually inducing a state as well, but getting people to visualize, just by visualizing something and thinking that in their mind, their body has a response. So yeah, it's just a really playful thing to do and quite emotional. But yeah, a lovely thing to show you.

Sally (23:25.008)
Hmm.

Sally (23:34.203)
Yeah.

Sally (23:39.183)
That sounds cool.

Sally (23:44.679)
I think it highlights how much control we have over our physiological state and our emotional state as well. You know, when we're talking about the mind-body connection, we're not just talking about our physical state, we're talking about our body sensations and also our emotions and our feelings too. And, you know, we do have control. If you're feeling sluggish, then we can...

Serena (23:44.972)
And if I see you today.

Sally (24:12.358)
you know, make that decision to get out and dance, or we can make that decision to go out in nature, or we can, or if we're feeling depressed, you know, we can make a decision to, you know, maybe not clinical depression, but, but sadness, if we've been wallowing in sadness for maybe just a little bit too long, we can make that decision to do some gratitude or

Serena (24:20.771)
Yeah.

Sally (24:37.882)
Just talk to ourselves differently because the way that you talk to yourself, the language that you use, the internal landscape that you have, if you're seeing something bleak and not very enticing or inspiring, that's going to affect your physiology. And feelings and emotions are basically chemicals, They're neuro-peptides or whatever. So we have that capacity. I think it was Dawson Church.

that said each of us are holding a, we have access to a pharmacy in our mind. And just by the thoughts that we think we can dispense the same drugs that we're being prescribed for, we can dispense our own in our body. have this, you we're a living, talk about big farmer, you are big farmer.

Serena (25:14.049)
I love that.

Serena (25:30.02)
I love that. I think what you said is so, so important because obviously, and we're kind of coming to the end of what is a really juicy discussion that we will definitely maybe need to come back to, I think, and talk about this again. But one of the key things, and I wrote this in my notes, is kind of thinking about what we can do. it is, and I think this for both us doing it for ourselves and also if you're working with other people, is to...

As you've said, maybe you can't change something physical. We're not saying that, like I said, with all the things that we talk about, it's not a panacea, it's not if you have a positive mindset that it makes all of your issues go away. Or certainly when it comes to physical health, we're not suggesting that you at all just believe that you can think your illness away, that there'll be a multi-pronged approach to anything that's health-based and that you should seek proper treatment for that. But...

Sally (26:25.776)
Yeah.

Serena (26:30.38)
What we are saying is that you can positively impact that and add to the positive impact of what you're doing by being positive and thinking about the mindset that you have in relation to that. And that looks like, and starts with that positive shift in mindset. And that looks like communication that is kind and compassionate and instills a positive belief.

Sally (26:40.496)
Yeah.

Serena (26:57.132)
So whether you're doing that for yourself and just trying to think positively, or if you're a clinician or practitioner, this is what we're saying is there is a way that you can learn to communicate that is positive in terms of your communication so that you're instilling positive beliefs in the patient or the person that you're working with, your client. And that includes the language that you're using. So like you mentioned, crumbling spine before. We know from the research that

saying things like that, crumbling spine or wear and tear or bone on bone or shit you've got cancer, you've only got three months to live, that people step into that belief. And so what you can do to impact that is to think about the language that you're using, to think about being honest but positive in your delivery.

Sally (27:38.532)
Yeah.

Serena (27:50.048)
if it's you and you're thinking about how you do this day to day, it's about speaking kindly to yourself. And to think about the times that you maybe say to yourself, I'm too old, I can't, I'm in so much pain, I can't. So whatever that might be, I'm not saying that that's what you have to think, but just to notice what you're saying to yourself. And it's because it starts, as you've said, with that inner voice, that inner monologue, that inner dialogue. What are you saying?

Sally (27:56.208)
Yeah.

Sally (28:15.878)
Mmm.

Serena (28:17.678)
that maybe you can shift and change that will really start a positive shift in your physical health as well.

Sally (28:24.6)
Yeah, yeah, completely agree. They say, don't they, that the placebo effect is not just in the mind. The placebo effect actually, it's a body change. It's a change in physiology. And so tapping into that and really understand and doing what we can do, you know, it's free. You can do it anywhere. You can do it in your car. You can do it in bed. You can do it whilst making breakfast.

You can visualize, you can change your language. Language is so powerful. And especially as a hypnotherapist, know, I'm tapping into the power of language all the time. we can, and we've got an internal dialogue. We might as well shift it and use it consciously. And you know, my spine is strong and robust. I have spaces between my discs and the muscles are free and fluid and flexible. And

Serena (29:03.95)
Thank you.

Serena (29:13.666)
Yeah

Sally (29:22.458)
Yeah.

Serena (29:24.024)
I love it. think just before we go and obviously as we start to maybe think about the things that we'd like to change, just because that's how we're ending our lovely podcast now, is just to encourage people to read. I know I keep mentioning Ellen Langer and obviously you do as well, but I really strongly, strongly recommend, highly recommend, and strongly recommend Mindful Body by Ellen.

Sally (29:38.598)
Hmm.

Sally (29:44.591)
Yeah

Serena (29:47.46)
Dr Anna Langer is full of amazing research really really useful and as you said we're looking at it in Psych Lab now and just getting to reflect on how we might use this knowledge and integrate it into practice and what that looks like so people anyone can go and read the book and go and do that for themselves. And that just leaves us to say Sally what are we going to change based on what we've learned this week or what are we taking away what we're going to change.

Sally (30:01.968)
Yeah.

Sally (30:19.03)
doing a lot of this stuff I think it's just doubling down on on it and

Sally (30:27.59)
For me, I'm a very visual person. So I like to kind of see the blood vessels opening and see the changes. I'm working on my swimming at the moment. And one thing I recognized is if I embody the posture, the mindset of a swimmer, I can get into it without thinking, right,

Serena (30:30.125)
Right.

Sally (30:56.902)
Pull push, I don't even know what the words are for swimming. Pull and push. Elongate yourself and then bring it round. Flippers, I don't know. I just imagine that I'm Duncan Goodhue. And off I go.

Serena (31:13.954)
You've got a lot of hair, you've got hair.

Sally (31:17.54)
I've got loads of hair, I've got loads of hair. But yeah, it's just like for me, just embodiment. And in fact, one of the really incredible things that I saw at the weekend was this guy, Adam, I told you about him, Adam Eason. He's got this incredible hypnotherapy school. And he's also, you know, really trained, really heavy in the gym and all of that. And he does exactly the same thing. He like adopts the hypnotic mindset.

Serena (31:20.315)
All right.

Sally (31:47.874)
I think you have to be careful with it because I think that you can literally end up lifting way too heavy for yourself because you get that like burst of adrenaline and whatever and I think you can end up doing some damage if you're not careful so it does have to be used mindfully but yeah that's yeah that's all I was gonna say what about you lovely

Serena (32:10.55)
for all my preaching about how good this is, I'm not very good at speaking kindly to myself. I've noticed as we're having this conversation, I notice, especially when I'm really busy, which I am at the moment and I'm just in action all the time, my thoughts are not, I'm not as kind in my thinking.

I'm not as kind to myself in my thinking. So there's a lot of kind of berating myself for what I'm not doing. So I think actually, I'm always about practicing what I preach, very mindful of always being the person that does the work. And yeah, I think what's come to fruition for me is I'm not kind to myself at the moment. So I need to I think I need to be a bit kinder. And even that makes me feel uncomfortable. So that needs working on that. That means it's a good thing to do. So I think

Sally (33:04.11)
well done, well done for saying that.

Serena (33:07.446)
Yeah, thank you. I'll let you know how that goes. So to be a little kinder.

Sally (33:11.643)
Yeah.

Yeah, it's hard sometimes, isn't it, to admit where we're not... Yeah, well, we're not... I was going to say we're not perfect. That's a silly thing to say. But where we're not... Where we're not walking our talk or where we could do a little bit better or where we could be kinder to ourselves. Yeah. Well done.

Serena (33:28.91)
Yeah.

Serena (33:32.332)
Yeah, thank you. So yeah, I'll you know how that goes and we'll check in with your super swimming. Watching you swim the channel before you know it.

Sally (33:43.341)
You never know. I don't think I want to cover myself in lard though to be honest.

Serena (33:49.304)
there, it's not a good look. Well, it another great conversation today, Sally. Thank you so much. Always a pleasure. I, yeah, always looking forward to the next chat.

Sally (33:59.406)
Yeah, you too, lovely. See you later.

Serena (34:02.21)
Bye.