Zukiswa Wanner: Giving up the Goethe Medal for Gaza

Join us for an enriching conversation with Zukiswa Wanner, acclaimed writer and activist, as she shares insights from Johannesburg, South Africa. In this interview, Zukiswa reflects on her literary achievements, activism, and firsthand experiences in Palestine. Tune in for an inspiring conversation!

Transcript

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Zukiswa Wanner is an acclaimed writer, publisher, curator and editor. Since her debut novel, The Madams, published in 2006, she has consistently captivated readers with her storytelling, notably her novel London Cape Town Joburg earned her the prestigious Kabelo Sello Duiker Memorial Literary Award in 2015. In November 2023, Wanner released a collection of essays entitled Vignettes of a People and an Apartheid State. Reflecting on what she witnessed in Palestine during her visit in May 2023 for the Palestine Festival of Literature. Beyond her literary achievements, Zukiswa’s activism and commitment to social justice are evident in her bold actions, such as returning the Goethe Medal in protest against the German government's role in the Gaza conflict. With a rich repertoire of works spanning fiction, nonfiction and children's literature, Zukiswa continues to be a leading voice in African literature, inspiring readers and writers alike. We are pleased to have her with us today. Welcome, Zukiswa. Doing well, thank you very much. So I would like to go ahead and start with your returning of the Goethe Medal. Zukiswa in 2020, you've become the first woman from the African continent to receive the go to medal. Previously, Ian McEwan and Museum director Elvira Espejo Ayca were also awarded it. And yet just a few weeks ago, you returned the go to medal, citing the German government's role in the ongoing war in Gaza. As your reason. You said, and I quote,“German government would acknowledge that never again meant never again for anybody.” Now, there have been several instances where writers and cultural figures have taken action in response to Germany's stance on the Israel-Gaza conflict, specifically a campaign backed by the French author, a Nobel Prize winner Annie Ernaux and Palestinian poet Muhammad el-Kurd, where more than 500 global artists, filmmakers, writers and cultural cultural workers have launched a campaign against Germany's policies alleging suppression of freedom of expression related to solidarity, Palestine. Zukiswa, please tell us more about your decision to return that Goethe medal, and especially what you realized during your trip to Palestine to visit the Palestine Festival of Literature and May 2023. Well, returning the medal was a very easy thing for me because finding out something which I put in a statement that Germany was one of the biggest one of the two biggest funders of weapons to Israel, despite the fact that they themselves have a history of genocide, not just in not just the Holocaust, but in Namibia and in Tanzania. Yeah, in Africa. So seeing them again, being complicit in another genocide when they should have been the first, people to say, no, we're not going to abet and be okay with this particular genocide, particularly after the ICJ ruling. A provisional ruling which found, you know, Israel's actions essentially saying Israel is complicit in a genocide. So, yeah, and of course, this was not only pushed on me by having experienced Palestine when I went there last year, which was where I saw, you know, as a South African, I know apartheid and apartheid was pretty bad. I didn't I didn't grow up here, fortunately, but I came towards the end of apartheid. But still I experienced some of it. And so when you get into Palestine, it's worse than any apartheid that I've ever heard of. Palestinians use different roads. They have different number plates. So Israelis have white number, a yellow number plates. Palestinians have white number plates. Yellow number plates can go anywhere, white number plates are restricted on where they can go. In certain areas Palestinians cannot put a water tank at their places. And this is part of the reason why we're seeing Gaza now. In Gaza, people unable to have water because they're not allowed to have to have water, according to the Israeli government. Even rainwater is considered belongs to the Israelis. Palestinians are not allowed to put solar panels in their house without Israeli permission. And that's essentially the basis. I remember entering some space and I could go, and the writer that I traveled with was during the time that I was in Palestine, we went to when Ramallah, when East Jerusalem, were in Lod, were in Hebron, when I went to Bethlehem, I saw. But we could go into certain spaces that Palestinians could not, you know, without foreign passports. How does anybody not see that? It's problematic. So that's a point of correction. My book actually came out in October 2023. So it was I wrote it's a little essay, actually, and I wouldn't really call it a book, but it's on Amazon and it's in a few countries and it's been translated into Portuguese and into Spanish in Colombia and so forth and so on. Portugese in Brazil and Spanish, in Colombia and French in Tunisia, and it's now in progress. And as an Arabic translation in Algeria, which is really to say that at this point which is really to say that at this point in time, I feel like the Global South is having a more moral conversation than those who claimed that they had moral rights in Lebanon. And, of course, the signatories of the UN charter back in 1945, 1948. I'm curious, can you give our audience a little bit more into the some the vignettes of a people in an apartheid state? You called it an essay or is it a collection of essays? Is it involving more creative writing or is it more nonfiction accounts? No, no. It's actually a long, a long form essay. So it's about 9000 to 10000 words. And as I mentioned, a list and all the the English and the Portuguese versions are on Amazon available. But it's it's really like my kind of diary of traveling through Palestine and what I was feeling at that very moment every time that I was there and how it messed me up, you know, where you realize I don't think anybody can go to Palestine and still be okay afterwards, you know, and still be okay with the idea of Israel and the treatment of Palestinians. I don't think it's possible Zukiswa I want to also touch on something one of our guests in a former episode talked about in detail how they were made to tour Jerusalem. So they were invited as a scholar to tour Jerusalem. And when they toured Jerusalem by helicopter, they were given the perspective of how the Israelis are a victim rather than a perpetrator of what's going on over there. Did you imagine this sort of like scenario playing out that what if you were invited by the Israelis to view that part of the city instead of being invited by the Palestinians? So to start with, it would be very ridiculous to go on a helicopter because that's not how Palestinians are allowed to access anything you know. So that in itself is already levels of ridiculous. But secondly, listen, if the narrative you're going to pull is, you put a bunch of not only Europeans and Americans, but equivalently white South Africans moving to this alleged promised land that already has people, by the way, that only became a territory because some British guy called Balfour, did the Balfour Declaration. Let's understand that particular history. That is levels of colonialism. And we need to ground it in that. If you're going to have that right now as South African who is Afrikaner, who decides to convert to Judaism today, will go into Israel and they will be given land. And they can they can push out a Palestinian whose grandfather has had, you know, this olive tree that has grown, an olive grove that has grown in that field for the last 300 years. They can push this people out from their homes. Also, we also everybody needs to understand, let's not conflate Judaism with Zionism. It's not the same thing. You know, the person who did the cover of my book, of vignettes of an apartheid state is actually Jewish. But her grandfather was a strong proponent and anti-Zionist, already in the twenties, in the 1920s. You know, and and I love here in South Africa, we've got a lot of Jewish people who are anti-Zionism. You know, I think of people like ____l I think of people like Jonathan Shapiro and I am I don't always agree with them on all their politics but on this one I'm like, if a Jewish person is telling you that, no, we fought against apartheid in South Africa, and what we're seeing in Israel is actually another form of apartheid, then yeah, please believe them. You know, Germany itself and I mentioned this in my statement when I was handing back the medal 30% of the artists they've banned for speaking up against Zionism and against Israel. 30% of them have been Jewish. Zukiswa, I would like to or we would like to now play a short video still in relation to this Palestine conflict with Israel. This video that and I recorded just a few days ago, we would like to hear your comments, especially with regard the role of literature and creative writing in the context So such stories that we hear from Lama perhaps might not receive light or attention in scholarly works, but how do you how would you approach such a story as a creative writer yourself? It's actually interesting because more than ever you realize how much of the colonial project Israel is. You know, in Kenya during the colonial, during colonialism, they put a whole bunch of, black people who were fighting for independence in so-called reserves in South Africa is something called ______ But in the Kenyan reserves, people were allowed to get out X amount of times. And when they were allowed to get out, what they used to do is they would pick whatever food they could and they'll boil it together and stuff. And there's a dish called Mukimo which is potatoes and vegetables and whatever. And it's all meshed together because this is they ate for sustenance, not for enjoyment. I do love that with Palestine, in spite of everything that has happened, you know, the food is still really absolutely beautiful. And, you know, but it's it's also like when you see a wild tik-tok videos of Zionists, when, you know, they essentially take over like Palestinian foods and they claim that they are theirs, and it’s like is their no end to your stealing. I think, Zuki when we talked about asking you this question, I was expecting it to go in a direction, but it took me by surprise right now because it's exactly the expectation one would have when writing. Zuki you and I both write and we know the connections we make when we tell a story about our own culture. And then the typical reaction of readers is to react by telling us their stories from their perspectives, which are common to what we're evoking in them. And that's exactly what you did in response to this little clip that we just presented by Lama With you started to speak about this other dish that you saw evolve and and basically you would you would be able to speak about that dish exactly like how Lama did of hers. So I just think this is really beautiful. Thank you. Sabah, I did want to go ahead and turn to you very quickly since you are at the intersection of both academic writing as well as creative writing, you have produced scholarly work as well as published two novels and several short stories. And how do you evaluate and assess the merit and value of the story we just heard? If you're going expand more on that? Yes, absolutely. I think I value both equally. I've been at many intersections in my life where I had to make a choice between the two because it was very hectic to be both to be wearing both hats. But in the end, I just gave up because I realized that I need to have a foot in either field for me to feel satisfied as an individual. From a scholarly perspective, it requires that I engage with the subject in a certain direction, and as a creative writer, I engage with the subject in a different and a completely different way. And I think the two views compliment each other because I feel that literature beyond academic writing, which is very much about concepts and creative writing, provides the ability to assess. It's a sort of a call, it a seismograph of the more moral understanding or the moral tensions that a community experiences at any time. And that's captured in literature. Because in literature, in creative writing, we don't have to always be very precise in what we're saying. We don't have to be filled with jargon to express what we are, what we want to express. And very often emotions don't have names yet and they don't have labels. And that's the very function for me of art, of literature. And that's why for me, it compliments scholarly writing. Thank you for that Zukiswa, I have come to know you through Sabah who crossed paths with you a few years ago when you edited her short story Tara’s Hair. This story was selected among many hundreds and the Afro young adult short story competition and went on to be published in its original language, English, and translated into French and Swahili and sold across every continent. I will now read a synopsis and excerpt of that story, of which I found the most striking a memorable. Tara's hair, as a synopsis, follows Sofya a young girl grappling with societal expectations and religious beliefs. After Tara, a school acquaintance and friend, suffers a tragic accident that leaves her in a vegetative state. Sofya grapples with mortality and the implications of her length on salvation. Through her diary entries readers witness Sofya's reflections on death alongside her struggle to reconcile personal convictions with societal expectations. In this excerpt, Sofya begins to ruminate over the imminent death of her school friend who has just been hospitalized after a tragic accident.“One week since, I have been thinking incessantly about death. 23rd of May 2018.(Diary Entry) Dear Anne Frank, I've never imagined this kind of death. I've known old, sick people to expire like medicine. Like food. And that implies they had run the course of existence, stayed on the shelf long enough. And then it was simply time to go because they had got spoilt for whatever reason. But this kind of death never. This is something different. It's too sudden, unnatural, suspicious, mysterious. I guess that's why criminal investigators are always interested in such deaths. They're always trying to figure out why. Sometimes they find answers, sometimes they don't. Sofya.” Zukiswa, what was striking or memorable for you about Tara’s Hair. I think Sofya’s decision really to just like cut off her hair and do away with everything that was expected of her And, you know, the aunties would be like, yeah, you know, you're supposed to have long, luxurious hair and get married and so forth and so on. And how she actually refused to stay within that little thing. But it was also I think the other thing that was also very important was a child dealing with with loss. And I've been thinking, of course, about loss a lot. And I think this is where Tara's is more relevant, even more today than any other time, because we're getting stories of like children in and in Gaza saying that they would rather be dead. You know, because and these are children. Who are seeing death every day. And, you know, Sofya is coming to grips with death. You know, she's trying to understand it, but children in Gaza right now are constantly like they're seeing their beloved being they're being child parents to the to the little sisters or brothers there. And I kept thinking, what must it be like? You know, because you and I and Sabah, we are suffering a certain level of trauma just from watching it. But what happens to the child on the ground? You know, how are they dealing with this? You know, and and so you look at it and of course, the significance, obviously, of, you know, and Frank's diary, because this was another child and somebody it's a weird thing because it came up in a conversation earlier this week. It was like, is there some way where we can get an equivalent Anne Frank's diary sent to a whole bunch of people, but it will be like, the equivalent of like Gazan children speaking, you know, Anne Frank's diary. But I'm hoping that when this is over soon, in addition to people obviously going to prison, going to ICC for their crimes against humanity. I'm hoping that there will be governments will be made to pay for collective mental health because we've been destroyed as a world. And so much for those very thought provoking words For Sabah, I was intrigued by the references you made to the Holocaust, specifically, of course, Anne Frank's diary in this piece about the struggles of a young Indo-Mauritian Muslim adolescent. Can you tell us about what what incited you to include this reference. To go back to what Zuki said in her letter to Goethe institute, You know, when we speak about never again, even as academics, we are familiar with the concept of saying not just never again and not making it duplicitous and instead insisting on never again for anyone. And I think that's something I can relate to very much. And I feel and I look back now when I was growing up as an Indo Mauritian Muslim in in Mauritius, and I was I had access to the British Council Library and that is when I came across a copy of Anne Frank's diary, The Diary of Anne Frank. And that's when I made it connect with the character. That's when I really learned for the first time about the Holocaust. And of course, I was very much marked by what happened to Anne and her sister Margot. And of course, later in time I learned about, you know, how Otto Frank, you know, edited the diary to make it publishable and of course, to remove certain parts that he was not very happy with. But my point is that I grew up in that environment and I learned about that idea that there are certain acts by human beings, unfortunately, that should be condemned no matter where we're from and no matter who we are. And I think that stayed with me, and I hope it does for the rest of my life, because I think it's an ethical imperative to abide by that principle in whatever we do. Thank you for that expansion Sabah. Do you have any more questions for Zukiswa? Thank you, Luis. I do have a question for Zuki. And the last question is, I am curious to know, what do you see there, Zuki? As a writer, as an artist, as a curator, and so many things. I want to know what we could do as writers to help in the cause of Palestinians During apartheid, what happened is and I really believe that this is what's caused the apartheid regime to fall. There was a bunch of people who decided, you know what, we are going to boycott South African products, we’re going to disinvest. We're going to sanction South African companies. And this hurts the money-people so much because always you need to hit capitalism where it hurts. This hurts the money-people so much that they spoke to the apartheid government You know, so they you know, they then had to go on the negotiating table and say, guys, see, by the way, we are going to have to talk to our enemies. And on Sunday last week, exactly a week from today, I was I was in studio at the South African Broadcasting Corporation. And, you know, the question of my giving up the Medal came up. And and I'm I say, well, you're not I really couldn't accept an honor from a country that had this position. And as I came out, though, with this guys, there was this guy who had come to promote this single and, you know, on on television. And he said to me, my sister, it just he said, let me show you this and I'm going to read this letter that he showed me. And he had been invited. They'd been invited to Tempestt's, so to the Orlando Fringe Festival in the U.S. And this is the letter that they wrote on March 7th. Dear Tempestt, thank you for reaching out to us. I hereby inform ____ spirit of Africa, will unfortunately not participate in the Orlando Fringe Festival this year. The excitement for the event is dimmed by the ongoing support of the Israeli Gaza war by the United States. The continued sponsoring the war by the United States, and the visuals of women and children suffering as seen on TV is very disturbing. As people with experience and suffered under apartheid regime, we choose not to associate with a country that seems to be just oppressive, killing innocent people, blocking a ceasefire, not allowing humanitarian aid, to helpless women and children causing starvation and death. But we remain hopeful and pray for peace. Thank you for the opportunity. We hope to engage at a later stage and a more peaceful circumstances. I read this to highlight that artists have a voice and it's and in our having a voice, we actually can say something. And I've seen I've seen Irish bands pull out of stuff. I have seen many other places. So it's up to us. I've seen I've seen writers pull out of like PEN America Voices Festival, people like Maaza Mengiste, Isabella Hammad. And we really, really need to use these places because this is the least we can do, but also we can also just the barest minimum download the No Thanks App. And every time that we go shopping or buying stuff, we can scan and we see whether this product is on the BDS list and we leave it, you know, and we find something another alternative. So yeah, that's what we can do. Thank you so much Zuki. Thank you so much for your time and for your words. And I hope that this will go out as a message of encouragement and of hope as well to everyone out there. Thank you. Too. And thank you so much for having me. This is Not to Forgive, But to Understand. I'm your host, Luis Gonzalez Aponte, joined by my co-host, writer and scholar of Genocide Studies, Sabah Carrim Zukiswa Wanner is an acclaimed writer, publisher, curator and editor. Since her debut novel, The Madams, published in 2006, she has consistently captivated readers with her storytelling, notably her novel London Cape Town Joburg earned her the prestigious Kabelo Sello Duiker Memorial Literary Award in 2015. In November 2023, Wanner released a collection of essays entitled Vignettes of a People and an Apartheid State. Reflecting on what she witnessed in Palestine during her visit in May 2023 for the Palestine Festival of Literature. Beyond her literary achievements, Zukiswa’s activism and commitment to social justice are evident in her bold actions, such as returning the Goethe Medal in protest against the German government's role in the Gaza conflict. With a rich repertoire of works spanning fiction, nonfiction and children's literature, Zukiswa continues to be a leading voice in African literature, inspiring readers and writers alike. We are pleased to have her with us today. Welcome, Zukiswa. Doing well, thank you very much. So I would like to go ahead and start with your returning of the Goethe Medal. Zukiswa in 2020, you've become the first woman from the African continent to receive the go to medal. Previously, Ian McEwan and Museum director Elvira Espejo Ayca were also awarded it. And yet just a few weeks ago, you returned the go to medal, citing the German government's role in the ongoing war in Gaza. As your reason. You said, and I quote,“German government would acknowledge that never again meant never again for anybody.” Now, there have been several instances where writers and cultural figures have taken action in response to Germany's stance on the Israel-Gaza conflict, specifically a campaign backed by the French author, a Nobel Prize winner Annie Ernaux and Palestinian poet Muhammad el-Kurd, where more than 500 global artists, filmmakers, writers and cultural cultural workers have launched a campaign against Germany's policies alleging suppression of freedom of expression related to solidarity, Palestine. Zukiswa, please tell us more about your decision to return that Goethe medal, and especially what you realized during your trip to Palestine to visit the Palestine Festival of Literature and May 2023. Well, returning the medal was a very easy thing for me because finding out something which I put in a statement that Germany was one of the biggest one of the two biggest funders of weapons to Israel, despite the fact that they themselves have a history of genocide, not just in not just the Holocaust, but in Namibia and in Tanzania. Yeah, in Africa. So seeing them again, being complicit in another genocide when they should have been the first, people to say, no, we're not going to abet and be okay with this particular genocide, particularly after the ICJ ruling. A provisional ruling which found, you know, Israel's actions essentially saying Israel is complicit in a genocide. So, yeah, and of course, this was not only pushed on me by having experienced Palestine when I went there last year, which was where I saw, you know, as a South African, I know apartheid and apartheid was pretty bad. I didn't I didn't grow up here, fortunately, but I came towards the end of apartheid. But still I experienced some of it. And so when you get into Palestine, it's worse than any apartheid that I've ever heard of. Palestinians use different roads. They have different number plates. So Israelis have white number, a yellow number plates. Palestinians have white number plates. Yellow number plates can go anywhere, white number plates are restricted on where they can go. In certain areas Palestinians cannot put a water tank at their places. And this is part of the reason why we're seeing Gaza now. In Gaza, people unable to have water because they're not allowed to have to have water, according to the Israeli government. Even rainwater is considered belongs to the Israelis. Palestinians are not allowed to put solar panels in their house without Israeli permission. And that's essentially the basis. I remember entering some space and I could go, and the writer that I traveled with was during the time that I was in Palestine, we went to when Ramallah, when East Jerusalem, were in Lod, were in Hebron, when I went to Bethlehem, I saw. But we could go into certain spaces that Palestinians could not, you know, without foreign passports. How does anybody not see that? It's problematic. So that's a point of correction. My book actually came out in October 2023. So it was I wrote it's a little essay, actually, and I wouldn't really call it a book, but it's on Amazon and it's in a few countries and it's been translated into Portuguese and into Spanish in Colombia and so forth and so on. Portugese in Brazil and Spanish, in Colombia and French in Tunisia, and it's now in progress. And as an Arabic translation in Algeria, which is really to say that at this point which is really to say that at this point in time, I feel like the Global South is having a more moral conversation than those who claimed that they had moral rights in Lebanon. And, of course, the signatories of the UN charter back in 1945, 1948. I'm curious, can you give our audience a little bit more into the some the vignettes of a people in an apartheid state? You called it an essay or is it a collection of essays? Is it involving more creative writing or is it more nonfiction accounts? No, no. It's actually a long, a long form essay. So it's about 9000 to 10000 words. And as I mentioned, a list and all the the English and the Portuguese versions are on Amazon available. But it's it's really like my kind of diary of traveling through Palestine and what I was feeling at that very moment every time that I was there and how it messed me up, you know, where you realize I don't think anybody can go to Palestine and still be okay afterwards, you know, and still be okay with the idea of Israel and the treatment of Palestinians. I don't think it's possible Zukiswa I want to also touch on something one of our guests in a former episode talked about in detail how they were made to tour Jerusalem. So they were invited as a scholar to tour Jerusalem. And when they toured Jerusalem by helicopter, they were given the perspective of how the Israelis are a victim rather than a perpetrator of what's going on over there. Did you imagine this sort of like scenario playing out that what if you were invited by the Israelis to view that part of the city instead of being invited by the Palestinians? So to start with, it would be very ridiculous to go on a helicopter because that's not how Palestinians are allowed to access anything you know. So that in itself is already levels of ridiculous. But secondly, listen, if the narrative you're going to pull is, you put a bunch of not only Europeans and Americans, but equivalently white South Africans moving to this alleged promised land that already has people, by the way, that only became a territory because some British guy called Balfour, did the Balfour Declaration. Let's understand that particular history. That is levels of colonialism. And we need to ground it in that. If you're going to have that right now as South African who is Afrikaner, who decides to convert to Judaism today, will go into Israel and they will be given land. And they can they can push out a Palestinian whose grandfather has had, you know, this olive tree that has grown, an olive grove that has grown in that field for the last 300 years. They can push this people out from their homes. Also, we also everybody needs to understand, let's not conflate Judaism with Zionism. It's not the same thing. You know, the person who did the cover of my book, of vignettes of an apartheid state is actually Jewish. But her grandfather was a strong proponent and anti-Zionist, already in the twenties, in the 1920s. You know, and and I love here in South Africa, we've got a lot of Jewish people who are anti-Zionism. You know, I think of people like ____l I think of people like Jonathan Shapiro and I am I don't always agree with them on all their politics but on this one I'm like, if a Jewish person is telling you that, no, we fought against apartheid in South Africa, and what we're seeing in Israel is actually another form of apartheid, then yeah, please believe them. You know, Germany itself and I mentioned this in my statement when I was handing back the medal 30% of the artists they've banned for speaking up against Zionism and against Israel. 30% of them have been Jewish. Zukiswa, I would like to or we would like to now play a short video still in relation to this Palestine conflict with Israel. This video that and I recorded just a few days ago, we would like to hear your comments, especially with regard the role of literature and creative writing in the context So such stories that we hear from Lama perhaps might not receive light or attention in scholarly works, but how do you how would you approach such a story as a creative writer yourself? It's actually interesting because more than ever you realize how much of the colonial project Israel is. You know, in Kenya during the colonial, during colonialism, they put a whole bunch of, black people who were fighting for independence in so-called reserves in South Africa is something called ______ But in the Kenyan reserves, people were allowed to get out X amount of times. And when they were allowed to get out, what they used to do is they would pick whatever food they could and they'll boil it together and stuff. And there's a dish called Mukimo which is potatoes and vegetables and whatever. And it's all meshed together because this is they ate for sustenance, not for enjoyment. I do love that with Palestine, in spite of everything that has happened, you know, the food is still really absolutely beautiful. And, you know, but it's it's also like when you see a wild tik-tok videos of Zionists, when, you know, they essentially take over like Palestinian foods and they claim that they are theirs, and it’s like is their no end to your stealing. I think, Zuki when we talked about asking you this question, I was expecting it to go in a direction, but it took me by surprise right now because it's exactly the expectation one would have when writing. Zuki you and I both write and we know the connections we make when we tell a story about our own culture. And then the typical reaction of readers is to react by telling us their stories from their perspectives, which are common to what we're evoking in them. And that's exactly what you did in response to this little clip that we just presented by Lama With you started to speak about this other dish that you saw evolve and and basically you would you would be able to speak about that dish exactly like how Lama did of hers. So I just think this is really beautiful. Thank you. Sabah, I did want to go ahead and turn to you very quickly since you are at the intersection of both academic writing as well as creative writing, you have produced scholarly work as well as published two novels and several short stories. And how do you evaluate and assess the merit and value of the story we just heard? If you're going expand more on that? Yes, absolutely. I think I value both equally. I've been at many intersections in my life where I had to make a choice between the two because it was very hectic to be both to be wearing both hats. But in the end, I just gave up because I realized that I need to have a foot in either field for me to feel satisfied as an individual. From a scholarly perspective, it requires that I engage with the subject in a certain direction, and as a creative writer, I engage with the subject in a different and a completely different way. And I think the two views compliment each other because I feel that literature beyond academic writing, which is very much about concepts and creative writing, provides the ability to assess. It's a sort of a call, it a seismograph of the more moral understanding or the moral tensions that a community experiences at any time. And that's captured in literature. Because in literature, in creative writing, we don't have to always be very precise in what we're saying. We don't have to be filled with jargon to express what we are, what we want to express. And very often emotions don't have names yet and they don't have labels. And that's the very function for me of art, of literature. And that's why for me, it compliments scholarly writing. Thank you for that Zukiswa, I have come to know you through Sabah who crossed paths with you a few years ago when you edited her short story Tara’s Hair. This story was selected among many hundreds and the Afro young adult short story competition and went on to be published in its original language, English, and translated into French and Swahili and sold across every continent. I will now read a synopsis and excerpt of that story, of which I found the most striking a memorable. Tara's hair, as a synopsis, follows Sofya a young girl grappling with societal expectations and religious beliefs. After Tara, a school acquaintance and friend, suffers a tragic accident that leaves her in a vegetative state. Sofya grapples with mortality and the implications of her length on salvation. Through her diary entries readers witness Sofya's reflections on death alongside her struggle to reconcile personal convictions with societal expectations. In this excerpt, Sofya begins to ruminate over the imminent death of her school friend who has just been hospitalized after a tragic accident.“One week since, I have been thinking incessantly about death. 23rd of May 2018.(Diary Entry) Dear Anne Frank, I've never imagined this kind of death. I've known old, sick people to expire like medicine. Like food. And that implies they had run the course of existence, stayed on the shelf long enough. And then it was simply time to go because they had got spoilt for whatever reason. But this kind of death never. This is something different. It's too sudden, unnatural, suspicious, mysterious. I guess that's why criminal investigators are always interested in such deaths. They're always trying to figure out why. Sometimes they find answers, sometimes they don't. Sofya.” Zukiswa, what was striking or memorable for you about Tara’s Hair. I think Sofya’s decision really to just like cut off her hair and do away with everything that was expected of her And, you know, the aunties would be like, yeah, you know, you're supposed to have long, luxurious hair and get married and so forth and so on. And how she actually refused to stay within that little thing. But it was also I think the other thing that was also very important was a child dealing with with loss. And I've been thinking, of course, about loss a lot. And I think this is where Tara's is more relevant, even more today than any other time, because we're getting stories of like children in and in Gaza saying that they would rather be dead. You know, because and these are children. Who are seeing death every day. And, you know, Sofya is coming to grips with death. You know, she's trying to understand it, but children in Gaza right now are constantly like they're seeing their beloved being they're being child parents to the to the little sisters or brothers there. And I kept thinking, what must it be like? You know, because you and I and Sabah, we are suffering a certain level of trauma just from watching it. But what happens to the child on the ground? You know, how are they dealing with this? You know, and and so you look at it and of course, the significance, obviously, of, you know, and Frank's diary, because this was another child and somebody it's a weird thing because it came up in a conversation earlier this week. It was like, is there some way where we can get an equivalent Anne Frank's diary sent to a whole bunch of people, but it will be like, you know, and we'll be sending it to the Zionists and it will be the equivalent of like Gazan children speaking, you know, Anne Frank's diary. But I'm hoping that when this is over soon, in addition to people obviously going to prison, going to ICC for their crimes against humanity. I'm hoping that there will be governments will be made to pay for collective mental health because we've been destroyed as a world. And so much for those very thought provoking words For Sabah, I was intrigued by the references you made to the Holocaust, specifically, of course, Anne Frank's diary in this piece about the struggles of a young Indo-Mauritian Muslim adolescent. Can you tell us about what what incited you to include this reference. To go back to what Zuki said in her letter to Goethe institute, You know, when we speak about never again, even as academics, we are familiar with the concept of saying not just never again and not making it duplicitous and instead insisting on never again for anyone. And I think that's something I can relate to very much. And I feel and I look back now when I was growing up as an Indo Mauritian Muslim in in Mauritius, and I was I had access to the British Council Library and that is when I came across a copy of Anne Frank's diary, The Diary of Anne Frank. And that's when I made it connect with the character. That's when I really learned for the first time about the Holocaust. And of course, I was very much marked by what happened to Anne and her sister Margot. And of course, later in time I learned about, you know, how Otto Frank, you know, edited the diary to make it publishable and of course, to remove certain parts that he was not very happy with. But my point is that I grew up in that environment and I learned about that idea that there are certain acts by human beings, unfortunately, that should be condemned no matter where we're from and no matter who we are. And I think that stayed with me, and I hope it does for the rest of my life, because I think it's an ethical imperative to abide by that principle in whatever we do. Thank you for that expansion Sabah. Do you have any more questions for Zukiswa? Thank you, Luis. I do have a question for Zuki. And the last question is, I am curious to know, what do you see there, Zuki? As a writer, as an artist, as a curator, and so many things. I want to know what we could do as writers to help in the cause of Palestinians, for all the violence that is happening in Palestine, I'm curious what could we do? And I think what you've done is a great is setting an example for many others. But what else could we do? What more could we do? Zuki During apartheid, what happened is and I really believe that this is what's caused the apartheid regime to fall. There was a bunch of people who decided, you know what, we are going to boycott South African products, we’re going to disinvest. We're going to sanction South African companies. And this hurts the money-people so much because always you need to hit capitalism where it hurts. This hurts the money-people so much that they spoke to the apartheid government You know, so they you know, they then had to go on the negotiating table and say, guys, see, by the way, we are going to have to talk to our enemies. And on Sunday last week, exactly a week from today, I was I was in studio at the South African Broadcasting Corporation. And, you know, the question of my giving up the Medal came up. And and I'm I say, well, you're not I really couldn't accept an honor from a country that had this position. And as I came out, though, with this guys, there was this guy who had come to promote this single and, you know, on on television. And he said to me, my sister, it just he said, let me show you this and I'm going to read this letter that he showed me. And he had been invited. They'd been invited to Tempestt's, so to the Orlando Fringe Festival in the U.S. And this is the letter that they wrote on March 7th. Dear Tempestt, thank you for reaching out to us. I hereby inform ____ spirit of Africa, will unfortunately not participate in the Orlando Fringe Festival this year. The excitement for the event is dimmed by the ongoing support of the Israeli Gaza war by the United States. The continued sponsoring the war by the United States, and the visuals of women and children suffering as seen on TV is very disturbing. As people with experience and suffered under apartheid regime, we choose not to associate with a country that seems to be just oppressive, killing innocent people, blocking a ceasefire, not allowing humanitarian aid, to helpless women and children causing starvation and death. But we remain hopeful and pray for peace. Thank you for the opportunity. We hope to engage at a later stage and a more peaceful circumstances. I read this to highlight that artists have a voice and it's and in our having a voice, we actually can say something. And I've seen I've seen Irish bands pull out of stuff. I have seen many other places. So it's up to us. I've seen I've seen writers pull out of like PEN America Voices Festival, people like Maaza Mengiste, Isabella Hammad. And we really, really need to use these places because this is the least we can do, but also we can also just the barest minimum download the No Thanks App. And every time that we go shopping or buying stuff, we can scan and we see whether this product is on the BDS list and we leave it, you know, and we find something another alternative. So yeah, that's what we can do. Thank you so much Zuki. Thank you so much for your time and for your words. And I hope that this will go out as a message of encouragement and of hope as well to everyone out there. Thank you. Too. And thank you so much for having me. which is really to say that at this point in time, I feel like the Global South is having a more moral conversation than those who claimed that they had moral rights in the global North. And, of course, the signatories of the UN charter back in 1945, 1948.