Leyla Ferman: ISIS, the Islamic State (Daesh), and the 74 genocides against the Yazidi

Leyla Ferman: A Decade After the Yazidi Genocide
In this episode of Not to Forgive, but to Understand, we speak with Leyla Ferman, Co-Founder of the Yazidi Justice Committee and Director of Women for Justice, about the ongoing fight for justice a decade after the Yazidi genocide. We discuss the legal battles and the resilience of survivors. Featuring selected artworks by Falah Kaboo, as highlighted in Sarwa Azeez’s article Beyond Mourning: Art as Healing a Decade After the Yazidi Genocide.
Special thanks to Sarwa Azeez, Falah Kaboo, and Genocide Studies and Prevention: An International Journal for allowing us to share their work.
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00:00:00 | Opening
00:01:30 | Introduction
00:01:59 | Why have the Yazidis been targeted by ISIS?
00:03:32 | Historical persecution of the Yazidis
00:06:21 | Why does ISIS consider the Yazidis ‘Kuffar’? Misconceptions about Tawûsî Melek
00:09:57 | Saddam Hussein’s involvement in Yazidi persecution
00:13:10 | The connection between the Kurds and the Yazidis
00:16:40 | How ISIS misinterpreted the Quran for their own benefit & legal ramifications
00:20:58 | The treatment of Yazidi women by ISIS & legal actions against perpetrators
00:24:30 | How has universal jurisdiction been exercised in favor of the Yazidi community against some of the ISIS perpetrators?
00:27:17 | Why is a genocide declaration not the end of the fight for justice?
00:29:57 | Skepticism about 'Never Again'—is genocide prevention effective?
00:36:58 | What does genocide prevention look like in practice?
00:42:54 | The Yazidi Female Survivors Law & its effectiveness
00:45:45 | U.S. troop withdrawal and its impact on Yazidi security
00:47:32 | The role of bystanders in genocide and mass atrocities
00:53:41 | Survivor experiences—insights from working with Yazidi survivors
00:56:18 | Why do some survivors choose silence over testimony?
00:58:42 | What leads a survivor to change their decision to speak out?
01:02:43 | The universality of human suffering and genocide
01:04:32 | The linguistic connection between the name ‘Ferman’ and the Yazidi term for genocide

Transcript

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recognition of a genocide is very important for the community. Also and for the trauma to be accepted So that's why I think the political decisions are a very important step. still there is no safety in Sinjar. People are afraid of going back. There are still Turkish airstrikes against Yazidis in Sinjar. There is no rebuilding, of the Sinjar program because of political issues between the Kurdistan region and also Baghdad. and nothing really changed, even if there is now a decision of closing the IDP camps, when the Yazidis go back to Sinjar, where shall they go? Leyla Ferman is the Co-Founder of the Yazidi Justice Committee and Director of Women for Justice. In this interview, we discuss the ongoing fight for justice a decade after the Yazidi genocide. Alongside the discussion, we will showcase selected artworks from Falah Kaboo, featured in Sarwa Azeez’s article Beyond Mourning: Art as Healing a Decade After the Yazidi Genocide. Special thanks to Sarwa, Falah, and Genocide Studies and Prevention for allowing us to share their work. The Yazidis live in Iraq, Syria, and Turkey. Why have they been the target of ISIS? Well, in general, it's very difficult to say why ISIS attacked the Yazidis, but there are at least two reasons. On the one hand, it's because of the ideology of ISIS. So already before the 3rd of August 2014, so before the beginning of the genocide against the Yazidis, ISIS was already sharing in their online newspapers or online magazines that they would target the Yazidis. They would explain why and how they would misuse Yazidis as slaves. So it was clear that ISIS was talking about the Yazidis saying that they were not believing in God and yes, that they have the right to kill them also and to enslave them. And on the other hand, as you might know, already in the summer of 2014, ISIS was controlling parts of Syria and Iraq, and they needed to connect their capitals both in Raqqa in Syria, and Mosul in Iraq also together. And there was the Highway of Sinjar. And they tried to create or to find a way, a direct way to connect both capitals. So at least we can say that these are two reasons why ISIS attacked the Yazidis in Sinjar. Going back to what you just mentioned, I have read Nadia Murad’s‘The Last Girl’; Nadia Murad who’s a Nobel Peace Prize winner. And she's also a Yazidi survivor. She spoke about how, you know, taking sabaya, which is the Arabic word for slaves. These women were made sex slaves to ISIS perpetrators. Taking sabaya was not decided on the battlefield. It was planned. And as you just mentioned, it seems there was already a detailed plan about who would get these sabaya for free and who would have to pay for it. And I think it's also mentioned that all of this was detailed in this glossy propaganda magazine called Dabiq. Because there have been many perpetrations against the Yazidis for a very long time. And apparently the one in August 2014 was the 74th. Could you tell us more about that? Well, in the collective memory of the Yazidis, they experienced and they suffered from 72 genocides during the Ottoman Empire. So the discrimination against the Yazidis, the campaigns against the Yazidis was something you can find already in the history of the Yazidis and also in the history of the Yazidis during the Ottoman Empire. So there have been so-called ‘Fermans’ or orders during the Ottoman Empire. By which Yazidis, were suffering, they were carrying out genocide against the Yazidis. So there was also another attack. And before the last genocide, Yazidis called them the 73rd genocide. And that's why they call the genocide committed by ISIS on the third of August 2014 as the 74th. So when Yazidis are talking about the genocide of today, they are remembering at the same time also the genocides which happened in the past and in their history. So it seems like the pains of the community, the collective pains are repeating now again. And when they, for instance, sing their mourning songs by trying to overcome also the trauma they are also mentioning, and they also connecting also the genocides, like when they mentioned the names of perpetrators or of are calling ISIS the perpetrators, to them, they are referring also to other genocides in the past by saying an ‘ISIS like’ also ‘this and this person’ did also in the past of of the Yazidis. I want to understand why ISIS deems the Yazidis to be ‘Kuffar’ the Arabic term for ‘Unbelievers’, which has justified their extermination of the people. So this includes not just what we talked about, as in the rape and sexual slavery of women, but also the forceful conversion of the young men in that community. I have also read about Tawûsî Melek, who's the chief Angel of God, and basically the main representative of that of that community, of that group, of that religion. And Tawûsî Melek is the peacock angel. Why is it that the ISIS has completely misconstrued who Tawûsî Melek is and the origin of the Yazidi religion? I think to find an answer to these questions or to this special question is we have to look into the history. And I think in general, we have to understand that minorities or non-Muslims had no equal rights during the Ottoman Empire and with the fall of the Ottoman Empire and with the creation of the new states, the situation of the Yazidis didn't change. So as I told you before, there were many genocides and genocides didn't just happen. I mean, you can maybe compare it with the antisemitism and the Holocaust. I mean, the Holocaust could happen because there was a widespread antisemitism. That means also in regard to the Yazidis and even until today. And I was also witnessing it myself when I did the research also on the field, even in the Kurdistan region, that there is still discrimination of the Yazidis they're still excluded and they're still also not recognized. And instead of asking how come or why are they victims of discrimination and also violence? I think we have to ask in another way. I think, when you think about the minorities in general in the Middle East and you have and the neighbors of the Muslims or the radical Muslims also, it is, I think, an idea of perpetrators to find reasons why to kill also their neighbors or why to discriminate their neighbors. So even if you if you refer to Tawûsî Melek like, I mean, the peacock angel and I mean this symbol of the Yazidis is used or misused by radical Muslims or radical Islamists in order to say that there was something wrong with Tawûsî Melek, with a peacock angel. So that's why I think the reason we will not find the reason by these communities which are suffering from genocide themselves, but how perpetrators are misinterpreting and or causing misinterpretation of things and the very values of the suffering group. So that's why it's really difficult to understand. I mean, we also don't understand how come anti-Semitism, for such a long time, is still widespread. So can we really find a reason? Can we really say this is the reason why anti-Semitism is still a part, in the communities where we are living? So what is Saddam Hussein's involvement in all this? Nadia Murad said that Saddam tried to get loyalty from Yazidis against the Kurds, his sworn enemy, so that they would side by him against the Kurds and fight his wars. But he also wanted the Yazidis then to join his Ba’ath Party and call themselves Arabs, not Yazidis. It's very difficult to analyze the relationship or out of the Ba’ath regime and the Yazidis or even if we could call it the relationship or how the Ba’ath regime was and Iraq was looking at the Yazidis. But what I can say is that there is something special on Sinjar and the Yazidis, and they have never be been a very strong part of the Kurdish movements. So, for instance, the Yazidis in the Kurdistan area have normally been also a part of the Kurdish movements. They would also describe themselves as Kurds. And this is different in Sinjar, the Yazidis there they describe themselves as yazidis and not as Kurds. Maybe this was a way somehow inviting the state or also the Ba’ath regime to try to use the Yazidis in Sinjar or misuse them also in their conflict with the conflicts with the Kurds. But what also happened in the during the Arabization policy of the Ba’ath regime, that Arabs were settled in Yazidi villages also in Sinjar, so not only in Kurdistan but also in Sinjar. And so Yazidis had to leave also their homelands. And this policy, of course, has had an impact on the Yazidi, on their lives also because they were settled in new settlement areas around Sinjar Mountain in the desert. And this changed, of course, a lot. This was also the reason of many, many difficulties also for them. And on the other hand, Saddam Hussein and also the Ba’ath regime tried to show the Yazidis that they are not Islamists. So they are part of the Yazidi community, even until today saying that under Saddam Hussein it was at least safe. They were saying during that time it was for them, not really a big issue to go to to other cities, to bigger cities like to Mosul and other places. And but when they talk about the time of Saddam Hussein, they are talking about safety. And of course, for community and minority, especially in the Middle East and minority in Iraq, safety is a big issue. So, yeah, I think on the one hand, Saddam Hussein tried to show them how important it is to support the Ba’ath regime, because they are the reason why the Yazidis could live in safety. And on the other hand, they were misused. They were discriminated. On the other hand, so it's very difficult to say Saddam Hussein had a positive impact on the Yazidis, of course. Identity issues are always very complicated, as we know. And very often they become the reason for political instrumentalizing. When I mentioned to colleagues that I was having this interview about the genocide of the Yazidis the immediate question was, again, about identity. So what my question right now is — What is the connection between the Kurds and the Yazidi? I think we have to talk about it because very often, for instance, in even the book I read by Nadia Murad, the one that I just mentioned, there was a reference to how the Kurds were basically the enemies of what was going on then in August 2014. But I'm sure that there is more complexity to it. Yes, it is. If it comes to identity issues and also the question of who belongs to a nation. I mean, there are many theories about this question, of course. And what I can say in general is there are objective and subjective issues when it comes to a nation. So you could, of course, ask which language do they speak? Tell me more about the history? Where are they living—and so on. So it could happen that when you focus on the objective criteria, that you could Yazidis are Kurds. And if you ask me and myself and the observation I did in the last years, especially with doing lots of research also I would also say Yazidis are Kurdish and they are speaking Kurdish. The Holy Land of the Yazidis is also in Kurdistan. Cultural issues are Kurdish, but in the case of the Yazidis, of Sinjar, and it seems that they don't want to be Kurds. And the issue is we don't have the right to call them Kurds if they themselves don't see themselves as Kurds or if they don't describe themselves as Kurds. So if the Yazidis from Sinjar see themselves as only as Yazidis, we have to accept this. This is the name for them, or the cultural group they belong to. But there are many Yazidis, like in the Turkish part or also in the Kurdistan region, also in the Rojava north in Syria, who describes themselves as Kurds. So it's on the one hand, I think, a political issue also. And if the Yazidis were part of the Kurdish movements because normally then they would also say that they are Kurds, but especially the Yazidi in Sinjar call themselves only as Yazidi and I think this has to do with the fact that they have never been a really big or active part of the Kurdish movements. And I think it has to do with the experience that they made in with their neighbors. And if the Yazidis, as I repeat myself, but if they don't feel that they are Kurdish, then they are not Kurdish. But again, if you ask me, I think that the Yazidis are Kurdish in general, and I think that we have to do much more research also on the issue of identity, the Yazidis and the Kurds, to understand how come Sinjar is very special also in the Kurdish areas and to understand this. As I mentioned, ISIS has resorted to verses from the Quran, arguably interpret it to their own advantage, to feel entitled to keep female sex slaves. I also want to speak about how they misused even whatever they extracted from the Quran to justify their deeds. Nadia Murad says in her book that [according to these interpretations by ISIS, women should not be separated from their young children. And there are rules for what happens if a sabiya becomes pregnant when she's pregnant, she cannot be sold, or if her owner dies, she is distributed as part of his estate an owner can have sex with a prepubescent slave— It says—if she's fit for intercourse and if she's not, then it is enough to enjoy her without intercourse.] And what is very typical of many accounts of the perpetrations against women is that none of the, well, very few ISIS perpetrators actually respected, even these interpretations that they had extracted from the Quran, which obviously have been marked as bad interpretations by many other communities of Muslims. So having said that, I am also aware that Iraq has not signed the Rome Statute, as you mentioned in your article recently, and therefore Iraq is not amenable to the jurisdiction of the ICC. Therefore, ISIS perpetrators have escaped any trial or legal accountability for their crimes. To charge ISIS with rape is only possible under civil law, the civil law of Iraq. Please tell us more about that. Well, when it comes to the legal approaches and legal questions is when you ask the Yazidi community, most of them would say that they are in favor of an international tribunal, because this is also what the Yazidi Justice Committee found out a couple of years ago in a report which had been published that in regards to the duties coming from the UN genocide conventions, at least three states violated their duties and among them was also Iraq. So of course, we could also now ask the question how come there's no state until today which opened a file or brought Iraq also before a court because they violated their duties coming from the U.N. Genocide Convention? So for the Yazidi community, that's why they are not focusing on Iraq when it comes to legal issues, because they are aware what is happening in Iraq. Even in these times there is a discussion and it seems that the parliament will pass a law, an amnesty law for ISIS members who are arrested in prisons in Iraq. So they don't expect so much. And this is, of course, a problem. The Iraqi government already announced that they will bring the U.N. institutions also to an end. So I think, yeah, in regard to the legal issues, the Yazidis don't expect very much from Iraq. And of course, the question should be how can communities in Iraq, of course, contribute to an improvement also in these ways? But I think the question is not only related to the Yazidis. I think the Yazidis as a minority are not powerful and strong enough to make a change, unfortunately. So that's why I think here very urgently, the all communities in Iraq have to become active and also the international communities to find ways after also the end to U.N. institutions, and also missions in Iraq to find a way how to convince Iraq, how important it is also to find a legal answer to the genocide and also to ISIS atrocities in general, So you bring up two points, which I'd like to ask further about. First is I want to talk about, again, the treatment of these women by ISIS and the repercussions. And then later, I want to talk about all the legal suits against these ISIS perpetrators. So first of all, ISIS have whenever the captured and kidnaped these women, these and turned them into sex slaves, they threatened them, these women from the Yazidi community. And they said that they would be shamed by the community if they went back, especially after losing their virginity, after being raped, after being forcefully converted to Islam, ISIS perpetrators told them that they would never be accepted again, so that it's better for them to stay with them, the ISIS community, and accept their fate as sex slaves. The Yazidi community, however, intelligently reacted to that and declared that women with such a past would not be judged or stigmatized, especially because of their forceful conversion to Islam, and especially, of course, of not for not being virgins anymore. Isn't this something admirable and progressive about the community? Well, on the one hand, when you look at the Yazidi community in general and also the Yazidi leaders, especially also the Prince family of the Yazidis, you will not find examples that the community is accepting or demanding violence against anyone. This should not mean that there are equal rights between men and women. It's still a conservative community, of course, but it didn't really surprised me on the one hand that something like this didn't happen. That Yazidis would kill their girls or their woman who could escape from ISIS captivity. And on the one hand, when I think about the different campaigns, hate speech campaigns against the Yazidis in the last years, I think even if they would have decided to kill their women, I think this would have been also an issue of conflict in the region. So that's why I think anyway, it's very close to the values among the Yazidis. And I think in general, they are also open minded. Also community. That's why it was not really surprising for me on the one hand and on the other hand, I think it's there was no other way, even if they would have decided it's impossible. I can even not imagine, I mean, that it would have happened. Yes, I think also the women, I did lots of interviews with women who escaped from ISIS captivity, those who escaped, in the first month, I would say they were still thinking that this might happen and that their families wouldn't accept them. But after I would say one or two years, when it was clear that already women went back to their families and nothing happened, the other women were also aware of the fact that when they returned with their families, the families will be more than glad to have them back. So I think even I think I mean, yes, this became clear also for the women after a while so I think, the other question about matters of jurisdiction and the legal suits against ISIS perpetrators is relevant here, because if we study the evolution of international law, especially over the last 20 years, we do notice that from the status it once had been, the toothless tiger, where international law could only roar but have no actual bite. We see that there is a change right now. So recently, The Gambia went against Myanmar in the interest of the Rohingyas. And we also had recently South Africa pledging for the Palestinians at the ICJ. What has, and your article mentions this, have some European courts done in favor of the Yazidi community against some of the ISIS perpetrators in the exercise of what we now know as universal jurisdiction? Well, I think they have been altogether around ten court cases against ISIS members. Most of them were women, especially in Germany. So Germany is a good example or should be a good example. Also, I think there is now one case in Sweden and also one case in the Netherlands, and it was the first time, so we can call it also a historical decision of the high regional court in Frankfurt 2021. The case against Taha Al-J. described the violence against Yazidis as a genocide. And so this opened also many other ways, for instance, the decision of the Bundestag also to say that the genocide, I mean, the violence against the Yazidis was a genocide. It was only and also possible because of this court decision and also the political decision in the UK to announce and also to say that this was a genocide was also linked to the legal decision of that court. But again, when you ask the Yazidi community and how come the Yazidi community is not really observing these cases, it has to do with the fact that the Yazidis are saying these are women and they are more powerful ISIS members and they were also much more responsible ISIS members. They should bring them before also a court. So again and again, the community is demanding an international tribunal because they say the atrocities of ISIS, especially against the Yazidi community, cannot be solved with individual cases against ISIS members, especially against women here in Europe. On the issue of genocide itself, the Yazidi perpetrations have been declared as genocide by the UN and My question is, and very often many of us wrongly believe that once mass atrocities are declared to be genocide, it's the end of the story. The job is done. In what way is that not a job That's been done even after the declaration of genocide? I think recognition of a genocide is very important for the community. Also and for the trauma to be accepted also. So that's why I think the political decisions are a very important step. On the other hand, when you look around the issue of what happened afterwards, you could say that there is not really a next step. So it's only like a political statement and that's it. The case of Germany is a bit different because of the court cases against ISIS members, but you wouldn't find such a big support of the Yazidi community, for instance, in Sinjar. So still there is no safety in Sinjar. People are afraid of going back. There are still airstrikes, Turkish airstrikes against Yazidis in Sinjar. There is no program rebuilding, of the Sinjar program because of political issues between the Kurdistan region and also Baghdad. So, there's still such a big suffer and nothing really changed, even if there is now a decision of closing the IDP camps, when the Yazidis go back to Sinjar, where shall they go? Most of their homes are destroyed. I mean, there's so many problems still they are facing. And that's why we cannot say that, with the political decisions, everything is done. And still more than 2,700 Yazidis are still held in captivity by ISIS and still the families are looking for their family members. So this is also an aspect of the ongoing genocide. So there are so many open questions to the future of the community that we can unfortunately have to say that there have been political recognition, yes, by many states and institutions, but it didn't really change the situation of the Yazidis and especially not the situation of the Yazidis in Sinjar. In your article, I quote, “Making space to commemorate various group persecutions creates an opportunity to embrace diversity, open up to others, and acknowledge what people bring with them. Between 2021 and 2023, for example, the Lower Saxony Memorial Foundation, in cooperation with the Women for Justice, implemented Project FERMAN, a documentation and educational project on the Yazidi genocide that drew first links with the Holocaust. Another example is the Survivor-Centred Visual Narratives Project, in which five research clusters on the Holocaust, Rwanda, Iraq/Syria, Yugoslav Wars and the Turtle Islands serve as the basis for joint educational and research work. The project features also the story of a Yazidi woman from Sinjar, told in the form of a graphic novel.” I just want to remind the audience that the last project you just talked about that is mentioned in this excerpt, which is about the graphic novel is being done, if I'm not mistaken, with Kjell Anderson, who's also going to be who's also a guest on our platform. But back to the excerpt, my question is In the listing of the reasons for these projects of memorialization that you mentioned in your article, you stay away from the usual adage never again, which we parrot out whenever we speak about programs of memorialization of war, mass atrocity and genocide. Instead, as I said, you refer in the article to making space to commemorate various group persecutions creates an opportunity to embrace... you speak about, about embracing diversity, opening up to others and acknowledging what people bring with them. You don't speak about making this an example and teaching people that it will help stop the perpetration from happening again. Was this intentional? Is this a form of a skepticism about the adage‘never again’, which many of us are anyway skeptical about. Yes, unfortunately, what the Holocaust survivors always were demanding, ‘never again’. Unfortunately we have to say that it is happening again. And it happened again and is still continuing. So I think these kind of projects are important to understand more about the genocides. I mean, how come genocides are not just happening. I mean, what can you tell us about the perpetratorship? How come people are becoming perpetrators? And these kind of questions are still alive. That's why caring about the Yazidi genocide has also to do with understanding the issue of genocide. What happened before the genocides, for instance? Is there a kind of system? Can we compare and we allow it also to compare genocides? And antisemitism, to understand this also, would it help also us to focus on other genocides, to understand more and the the issue of the antisemitism, for instance, and also to focus on the Holocaust? I think there are still so many issues we haven’t focused on yet. When it comes to research, like also the Middle East, for instance, for us living in Germany, I'm really wondering how come we didn't focus on the German direct and indirect involvement in the Ottoman Empire and how they supported or contributed directly or indirectly to the genocide also against the Yazidis. Why are we not focusing on it? Because also these aspects will also help us to understand more and more the Holocaust and also the Second World War. And maybe and I think so, they will also help us to understand, the problems we have today also with antisemitism and also other other issues like discrimination also and so on. So I think to refer to or to have a deeper view of the history is one aspect, I think. And also we live in a diverse community and I think we have to decide whether we want to accept it and if we recognize it and if we see the diversity as a value or if we have a conservative view on politics. And I think and anyway, it will not really change a lot because, for instance, the Yazidis, they have a collective way of memory. So anyway, they are living with these memories and they have and there some tradition also how to continue to remember also what happened in the past. So I think there are so many communities also with so many memories, collective memories, that I think we have to make a decision. I mean, do we accept this diversity also, or are we ignoring it? And I think especially in these times where right wing parties are becoming much more powerful also, I think it's so important to have a closer look at the diversity, at the values also among the diverse communities. And we will learn. I think, a lot, and I think we will. This is what I understand also from the example working on the Yazidi genocide. I think it would help us to formulate new questions also or to find also links between between things. We are working on, for instance, to understand is there a historical link between the Holocaust and, for instance, the genocide against the Yazidis during the Ottoman Empire? With a the link also to the to the recent genocide. So that's why I think we it's a win win situation. I think for all communities. They have the right also to be recognized and a diverse community. And on the other hand, I think it will, for the whole community, it will also help us to understand questions we already and anyway have. And so that's why I think to respect and to recognize and even give the floor also to the diverse communities also in Germany, I think will be a win win situation and will also be a very strong answer and answer against right wing movements and right wing parties also. I mean, it's interesting that you talk about this realization in the community of researchers on genocide, you know, who’ve discerned that it is important to understand or to figure out if there are any patterns or are there any connections between different genocides across time and space. Another, I think, understood premise or another premise that is recognized among the scholarly community is also that often it's been noticed that if a community is targeted, it continues to be targeted over time. And just reading about, the continuous persecution of the Palestinians or of the Jews, the continuous persecution of the Armenians. And now we're talking about the Yazidis. Many people have come up with solutions. And many of these solutions have been about stopping that process by, reparations, Is that what you believe as well? Especially among the Yazidis, there is something I would say I really realized the last years, because of the oral tradition among the Yazidis, the Yazidi’s have never their own state they didn't have a status. So most of the books or information, written information available in different archives are written by non-Yazidis and, of course, also perpetrators. Also when it comes to the issue of Israel and Palestine, I was wondering what does the piece of paper mean? I mean, for instance, the Yazidis also ask them who's the owner of a piece of land, because also for the Yazidis, because of so many genocides, because of violence, because of pressure, even if there is a piece of paper saying that a special person is the owner of a piece of land, It doesn't mean that, the person is really the owner of the land because of violence, because of pressure, because they have been forced to sign it or they have even not got any money or something like this for this. So that's why I think only to focus on on paper and to say that the piece of papers and evidence is, I think, not the right way to find a solution to ethnic conflicts, to find a solution of conflicts of states and also between states and also ethnic groups. I think that the way of finding a solution is really to find a dialog and to find moderate people. So I think whenever it becomes an issue of extremist groups, I think this is the worst situation. So I think pressure and violence cannot at the end kill everything. That's why I think communities, even if they don't have a state or status, they will if they survive, if they're strong enough to survive, if they find ways how to survive, they will keep on telling their stories. And I remember it's not only an issue for the Yazidis and also for the Kurds, for instance, also suffering. And in Turkey, I remember I was once in Armenia with a friend and she told me that her grandparents are from Western Armenia and I was always thinking, Western Armenia. You have now, I mean Armenia, the state of Armenia, and it's in the western part. And then I realized when she was showing me a map that her grandparents were coming from what we call Kurdistan, or when you ask the Yazidis, because the Yazidis there was a genocide. When when the genocide against, the Armenians took place Yazidis were also escaping and had also been killed. So, Yazidis would call them from the land of the Yazidis. So that's why I think I didn't, of course, have a problem. I was even glad to hear this. But because yes, it is Western Armenia, because it is the homeland of the Armenians. And why shouldn't they call it Western Armenia? Why shouldn't Kurds call it Kurdistan? Why shouldn't Yazidis call it Êzîdxan. So and maybe it's easy to say this because I'm not a state authority. I mean, state authorities would say of course not it's not possible. But why? I mean why can't we find ways in order to accept this? Because in fact, it is the traditional element of so many groups. Why is it such a problem that, I mean, giving a name to a piece of land, why is it so important and why is it so important to say this is a piece of I mean, a piece of paper saying that this person or this group, this is the owner of this piece of land, why should this be, I mean, the answer to the questions? Because there have been so many violence. This area also in the Middle East. I think it's not I mean, the right way just to say, we are looking only on documents and only on written written issues. I think it's so important to get in touch with the communities and to find more and to understand. The problem better. And if you understand the problem better, you will also find, of course, a solution, a midterm or long term solution. And I think only focusing on states. I think this the idea of states in the Middle East for the Yazidis in this case was only a big suffer. And the problem of the problem also until today. So that's why I think you will not find the proper answer to the question of the Yazidis, for instance, with only focusing on state and state authorities. So back to the article that you wrote. You mentioned that the Iraqi government in March 2021, passed the Yazidi female survivors law. Could you tell us more about that and also comment on its effectiveness? Well, the law, originally was intended to support Yazidi woman who were enslaved by ISIS and who have been raped by ISIS. And afterwards, it would also include other women from other communities. So although it is called the Yazidi survival law and it is also there to support female survivors from other communities which suffered from ISIS atrocities in ISIS captivity. And as much as I am aware there's a support of the Yazidi women in different manners, and I think parts of them are already implemented and other parts are on their way to be implemented. I think in general, this I mean, the survival law is a very special and very, very big issue also. And it has been well accepted, of course, among the Yazidi communities. It was a very special law also because you wouldn't find such an example in other states, also in regard to the support of those who suffered from genocide. So I think this is very, very special. And on the other hand, they are so many open questions still. So I think the survival law will not, unfortunately, of course, will not contribute to, overcome the trauma, to overcome the genocide. So I think much more steps are needed and also among Iraq to support the Yazidis to find a way back or to go back to Sinjar area, also to create also a new life also in their traditional homeland. Because for Sinjar in the majority, it is the last area, the last traditional homeland of the Yazidis with the majority being Yazidis. So it means if the others won't go back to Sinjar, it could also it could also mean the end of or disappearance of the community in the Middle East, because you wouldn't find such a big place, I mean, big area also like Sinjar and the Middle East anymore with the majority being Yazidis. And still the majority wouldn't like to go back, not because they are not linked to their traditional homeland, but because of safety reasons. Recently, the US troops were pulled out of that region, making the Yazidis more vulnerable to ISIS and to the rest of the perpetrators and those who have been their enemies for the longest time. Could you tell us more about that? The Yazidis in general are at risk not only in Iraq, but also in Syria and also in the Rojava area. And I think the the issue of whether the US troops will stay in that region or not will definitely have an impact on the situation of the Yazidis, because still, I mean, Iraq does not have a functioning democracy. Still the Yazidis are not recognized, there's no status of the Yazidis and especially looking to Syria and the situation in Syria now, the borders are anyway open. We don't know if the Islamists will really stay as the only ruling power in Damascus also, and the Yazidis in Sinjar are very much, very much concerned about about the situation in Syria. That's why I think the policy of the US is very critical also for the safety of the Yazidis for the future of them. Who are they supporting? Also in the future, I think there are so many questions. We cannot give an answer yet. But in general, yes, the Yazidis are at risk and they are still safety, problems in their homeland and in the areas where they are staying. The importance of recognizing complexity. Every group that exists out there, whether they are Yazidis, whether they are Kurds, whether they are even well, ISIS, well I don’t know about ISIS, but I haven't read enough about them to be able to make this difference. But we also have to speak about the people within those towns and areas where these women from the Yazidi community were abducted and turned into slaves. Now, in the case of Nadia Murad, and I'm sure in the case of other Yazidi women, they were Sunni Muslim women within the community, Sunni Muslim men who took pity on these women. And the treatment that they were exposed to and even helped them out. In the case of Nadia Murad, what we learn is that the Sunni Muslim family that helped her out, ended up getting into trouble. And of course, it's terrible to read about that. Nadia Murad says in her book about these people who helped her.“I stayed at Mina and Basheer's house for several days while the escape plan was worked out, and most of the time I kept to myself, thinking about my family and what was going to happen to me. If no one asked me any questions, They were a very religious family, praying five times a day, but they said they hated ISIS and they never asked me about my forced conversion or tried to get me to pray with them.” So here is an example of a Sunni Muslim family who was sympathetic towards this Yazidi women. But then there is another extract with Nadia Murad goes on to speak about these families and says, and these are all bystanders and we need to talk about bystanders, She says, “I try to have compassion for these families. I'm sure many of them were terrified. And eventually even those who welcome ISIS at the beginning would come to hate them and say after Mosul was liberated that they had no choice but to let the terrorists do what they wanted, but I think they had a choice. Had they gathered together all the weapons and stormed the Islamic State center where militants were selling girls or giving them as gifts, it's possible we all would have died. But it would at least have sent a message to ISIS, Yazidis, and the rest of the world that not all Sunnis who stayed in their homes supported terrorism. Maybe some people in Mosul had gone into the streets and shouted, I am Muslim and what you are demanding of us is not true Islam. The Iraqi forces and the Americans would have gone in earlier with help from the people living there or smugglers working to free Yazidi girls would have expanded their networks and gotten us out by the handfuls instead of one at a time like a dripping faucet. But instead they let us scream in the slave market and did nothing.” And I think this is important to me as a genocide studies scholar, because we are talking about the importance of bystanders reacting to the injustice that is going on around them. Do you have any thoughts about that? I think it's very difficult, to be honest. It's for me also difficult to to have an opinion on this situation because I think I haven't done much research also on it. But to watch the Yazidis who were enslaved by ISIS and to whom I was speaking, is that definitely I mean, it's not just black and white, of course. So, for instance, I remember that a Yazidi woman was saying that she was escaping from from the house where she was staying, and she was just knocking on a door of a family there. She wouldn’t know and they would help her, for instance, or where a woman was saying that she went to a hospital and she told a woman who was working there that she's enslaved and she was crying and saying, I'm also almost like you. I cannot escape from here. I think this is very clear that, of course, you will never have black and white. And you also something in between. But for me, it's very difficult to understand also the support. By now I mean because I haven't done much research on it to understand how much the local people also supported ISIS. And I think it's very difficult also to make a research on it right and especially in these times, who would say that they supported ISIS and how they supported them. For the Yazidis in Sinjar, at least, many survivors, were saying, in Sinjar City, where during the policy of Arabization and the Ba’ath regime settled Arabs in Sinjar City, they were, for instance, saying that when ISIS came to Sinjar, the families who were supporting them were telling them, that Yazidis are living in these houses. For instance, they were even marking also the houses of the Yazidis. So that's why I think for survivors. Yes, of course, sometimes it's difficult to make to distinguish between, I mean, ISIS perpetrators and to Muslims who were also suffering ISIS because can you, for instance, say that of course, there were so many others also have been killed by ISIS, so many other groups who have been targeted. So how would you say that for instance, that an Arabic mother, for instance, who lost her children, she's also suffering like Yazidi mothers, for instance. It's difficult, of course, to say that. I mean, there was only ISIS and only Yazidis because ISIS targeted I mean, all who were not supporting ISIS, in fact. So also Arabs were targeted. Kurdish Muslims were also targeted and all other groups. So, yeah, I think yeah, I think that the survivors are telling also these kind of stories. I certainly want to hear about the survivor's side of things. You work with survivors near and far, you're based in Germany. Tell us more about some of the experiences that marked you. When I started to get involved in the genocide, the Yazidi genocide, I supported a woman who escaped from ISIS captivity. So me and my colleagues, we did hundreds of interviews with those who were held in captivity by ISIS and those who were staying for almost one week on Sinjar Mountain surrounded by ISIS until they were rescued by Kurdish forces from Rojava, from Syria. So In regards to the women who escaped from ISIS captivity, of course, there's a difference between the interviews we did, for instance, at the beginning of the genocide, for instance, in the Kurdistan region or in Turkey, and then later, for instance, in Germany or in Canada or somewhere else, because the circumstances have an impact on the women. If they are ready to talk to us and how they are opening also, I mean, how open they are also to talk to us, the circumstances they're living. For instance, I remember we did once an interview in an IDP camp where the whole family only had one tent and we were sitting in the family tent and it was raining and we ask everyone to stay somewhere else. So and this will also have an impact on the women. I mean, on what they would like to share, how long they would like to share something with us. But what I realize is that the community, all those who escaped now also to Germany, they're very glad to be here. And it seems that many of their own community now in IDP camps. They would also like to come to Europe because they don't feel safe. And in fact, in the last ten years, nothing really changed. So there's still no political status, there is still no safety. And that's why for so many families, it's very difficult to return to the Sinjar area. And on the other hand, already around 100,000 people moved back. But this does not mean that they are very glad and they are happy to go back, but there was no other way. You also, when we first chatted to discuss the example of one of the survivors who didn't want to talk about it anymore and wanted to move on with her life. Could you tell us more about that? Because I think, again, some of us have this misconception that every survivor wants to speak, but the truth is many just want to bury it in the past and move on, because talking about it is a form of retraumatization as well. I mean, this is what especially the women are telling us when we get in touch with them. Many of them don't want to speak anymore about the genocide because they are now in Germany and they are living in safety. They started to learn the German language. They are going to school, they started to work somewhere. So It seems that somehow they are living a new life. And I think for us, and also as a researcher and those who didn't suffer from a genocide, sometimes it's difficult to understand why and how one could also ask that even for instance, today it's much more difficult for me. Also, I feel this also myself. It's much more difficult to ask them, would you be open to speak to me or would you be open to do an interview? And we have to respect this. But I think what is needed is that, for instance, there was one woman, she said she didn't want to speak with us, especially in the framework of the project FERMAN where I was working. And two years later, because we were still there, she came back and asked if it is still possible to do an interview. So and this is also, I think, what the Holocaust survivors, I mean, also the experience also with them showed us that many of them would just speak 20 years after, after the Holocaust, for instance. So what I think is very important to have a permanent place or an institution where whenever they would like to share what they experienced, that they could also go there. And so far, we don't have such an institution or a place where Yazidis could go when they feel ready also to share what they experienced. What changes allow someone to refuse, for instance, to talk about an experience and then decide one day that they will? What I experienced, when I was working at the Project for Ferman what was the project of the Lower Saxony Memorial Foundation, I think there were two aspects which fit very well together. One was to have or to create some kind of trust. So, for instance, our team and also, because part of our team were also Yazidis, I think this was very important to create trust. And on the other hand, the project was a project of a German institution. And I think that the Yazidi communities in general, they trust German institutions, that's why I think they were very open when we asked them, because on the one hand, you had people you would trust, they would speak your language, they would know your community and you could always go back to them, even if the institution wouldn't be there and they would know who you are. They would know your family and if they would like to complain, they would know where they could also go. And on the other hand, to have a serious place, a place with experience in working with survivors. A place, for instance, we also worked with the Yazidi survivors. We were doing workshops also at at the Bergen-Belsen memorial. And we understood that. I mean, survivors, they connect with each other very fast. And when we, for instance, try to connect them, this is something else. But if they come together or if they if they come together in a special place like a memorial, they connect very fast. And I think for us researchers, we are trying always to find, you know, and we are working archives, we are doing interviews. We will find or we will try to create new sources. But I think there is something we can maybe sometimes not understand that bringing people together is such a big power. Also, because when people feel connected, there are so many things are possible. I think that's why I think to have a place where survivors could meet and exchange, it doesn't mean that we would compare, I mean, any genocide with another genocide or that we would say this is I mean, this was a bigger genocide and this was a smaller genocide or something like this. And I think that the survivors what I experienced are anyway, not speaking, like that. And I think yes, I think sometimes we forget how powerful the connections between people are and especially among individuals who suffered from genocide. I remember when I was in the project preparing an interview with a Holocaust survivor, I just asked my colleagues to give me an overview of of the CV of of the survivor, a Holocaust survivor. And when I read it, there were so many similarities to what happened. For instance, to Yazidi survivors, how they lost their family members. Because, we are not survivors sometimes it's maybe difficult for us to understand, but when I saw how strongly connected, they suddenly were I felt that yeah, we are not aware sometimes about this. Deep relations also among survivors, also themselves. And I think that also speaks to us in literary terms about the universality of the human experience, of pain, of suffering, of violence and of mass atrocities in that sense and genocide. And I mean, it's connecting people. It's again, because we are researchers, we are writing and we are doing research. And I remember when I was doing an interview with a Holocaust survivor in Israel, there was a photo, a painting she was painting when she saw a photo of the Yazidis who who escaped from Sinjar Mountain to Rojava, to Syria. And there was the one famous photo also with the mother and her I think three children. And she was painting this photo. And I've we saw her this photo also in her living room. And when I ask her how come or why did she do that? I mean why did she paint this photo? She was saying when she saw this photo, this was reminding her of Anne Frank for instance, the daughter of the mother. So that's why I think of course, we wouldn't learn of something like this if we wouldn't visit the survivors. Also, if we wouldn't talk to them. That's why I think to bring survivors together, to get in touch with survivors directly and also, for instance, to bring survivors to a memorial. I mean, we would observe so many things we wouldn't, of course, observe if we wouldn't I mean, would it be active also? That's why I can only motivate everyone. To try to create, floors or also projects to bring together survivors. So, Layla, I noticed this is just out of curiosity. I noticed that there was a connection between your last name, Ferman as well as the word that the Yazidi community uses for genocide, which is really close in pronunciation It's ferman and also the use of the same word by the Ottoman empire. When the coined this word to mean an edict. Concerning the oral tradition among the Yazidis, normally the Yazidis would name children or many times they would name children after the events which took place while the children were born. And ferman means genocide in the Yazidi context so the Yazidi community is using the word ferman for saying or for talking about genocides, because the orders during the Ottoman empires were called ferman. And with these fermans, genocide took place and they suffered a lot. So my grandfather and my family name comes from my grandfather. His name was Ferman and he was named after a family member who was born doing genocide. So and that's why my family name is Ferman and it means, in fact, genocide. So it might be strange for some people to understand that my family name means genocide. But I think due to the fact that they were so many genocides and the past of these it is so, so many children have been named Ferman, for instance, because they were experiencing a ferman. So that's why it's also a common name among the Yazidi community. It's not a strange name. It's even a common name. And yeah, that's in fact how the Yazidis were keeping their history alive, their collective memory has also to do something with names. Of course, there are also other names where, for instance, if they would, give birth to a child when they were not staying in their traditional homeland. Then they would call them also, for instance, Khareeb, khareeb means something like I mean if you are far away from your homeland. So bringing the names also together of the children or of the Yazidis could also help us to understand and to see marks also of the history of the Yazidi. So family history, I mean, the families, normally they keep through oral tradition, their own history. And I think if you bring, all, family histories together through oral traditions, then you could somehow understand how the history was looking like among the Yazidis. And I think this is a way they would keep their own identity, also, how they would keep their own history. And this can make us also understand that although they are so much powerful actors like States, States would keep their archives, they would have schools where they would teach children also how they would see their history. But the Yazidis, although they were a minority, and although there were so many strong perpetrators through this kind of oral traditions, they were keeping their history alive. They were keeping their traditions also alive. So the name. Yes. Has on the one hand, something to do with the project, but it's not because of me or because of my name. This was Not to Forgive but to Understand with our guest Leyla Ferman. To our listeners. Don't forget to like, subscribe, and stay tuned for more discussions. recognition of a genocide is very important for the community. Also and for the trauma to be accepted So that's why I think the political decisions are a very important step. still there is no safety in Sinjar. People are afraid of going back. There are still Turkish airstrikes against Yazidis in Sinjar. There is no rebuilding, of the Sinjar program because of political issues between the Kurdistan region and also Baghdad. and nothing really changed, even if there is now a decision of closing the IDP camps, when the Yazidis go back to Sinjar, where shall they go? Most of their homes are destroyed. I mean, there's so many problems still they are facing. And that's why we cannot say that, with the political decisions, everything is done. And still more than 2,700 Yazidis are still held in captivity by ISIS and still the families are looking for their family members. So this is also an aspect of the ongoing genocide. So there are so many open questions to the future of the community that we can unfortunately have to say that there have been political recognition, yes, by many states and institutions, but it didn't really change the situation of the Yazidis and especially not the situation of the Yazidis in Sinjar.