Conquering Imposter Syndrome with Maureen Zappala

Ever feel one mistake away from being “found out”?  You’re not alone.  Former NASA propulsion engineer Maureen Zappala shares how imposter syndrome secretly affects high performers and provides practical strategies to overcome self-doubt that holds us back from our full potential.

Maureen shares her journey from melting equipment at NASA’s jet engine test facility to becoming the first female and youngest manager of its Propulsion Systems Lab. Despite her impressive credentials, she constantly questioned her worth, even believing she was hired only because she was a woman.

What makes this episode particularly valuable is Maureen's practical framework for tackling imposter syndrome.  She outlines five powerful strategies that begin with recognizing the symptoms and culminate in connecting with your deeper purpose.  Along the way, she dismantles common misconceptions, explaining why imposter syndrome isn't something you "solve once and for all," but rather a recurring challenge that requires ongoing awareness and vigilance.

The conversation explores how imposter syndrome shows up across professions—from healthcare to leadership, creative work to entrepreneurship—revealing both personal struggles and costly organizational consequences, like a supervisor’s silence leading to defective products.

Whether you're a seasoned executive, an emerging leader, or simply someone striving for excellence in your field, this episode offers both comfort and actionable insights.  Her message is clear: imposter syndrome isn’t a one-time fix but an ongoing challenge—and one you can learn to navigate with confidence.  As Maureen says, “Imposter syndrome is not the end of the road.”

Guest:  Maureen Zappala, keynote speaker and an incredible author

Host:  Chris Comeaux, President / CEO of TELEIOS

https://www.teleioscn.org/anatomy-of-leadership/conquering-imposter-syndrome-with-maureen-zappala

The Anatomy of Leadership podcast explores the art and science of leadership through candid, insightful conversations with thought leaders, innovators, and change-makers from a variety of industries. Hosted by Chris Comeaux, each episode dives into the mindsets, habits, and strategies that empower leaders to thrive in complex, fast-changing environments. With topics ranging from organizational culture and emotional intelligence to navigating disruption and inspiring teams, the show blends real-world stories with practical takeaways. The goal is simple yet ambitious: to equip leaders at every level with the tools, perspectives, and inspiration they need to lead with vision, empathy, and impact.

https://www.teleioscn.org/anatomy-of-leadership

Chapters

• 0:00 Introducing Imposter Syndrome
• 7:08 The NASA Meltdown Story
• 17:25 Meet Maureen Zappala: Rocket Scientist
• 25:41 Five Strategies to Combat Imposter Syndrome
• 35:09 The Spiritual Journey of Self-Mastery
• 43:03 The Hidden Impact on Organizations
• 47:57 Closing Thoughts on Authentic Leadership

Transcript

Chris Comeaux: 0:00

What is the imposter syndrome? How does it show up differently in maybe high-performing, bold and brilliant team members, maybe compared to the rest of the team?

Maureen Zappala: 0:10

It doesn't just show up in the high-performing people. But it doesn't just show up. It often is camouflaged as something else. It is camouflaged as high performance, in fact, if you are a leader, as high performance, in fact, if you are a leader, chances are your high performers that you think are not your problem child, and they're not, because they are high performers. Those folks are struggling with Imposter Syndrome, and you don't even know it.

Chris Comeaux: 0:35

Like you could probably look back through the rearview mirror right that you were struggling with an imposter syndrome. But you did some pretty cool stuff when you're at NASA. I did. Can you share?

Maureen Zappala: 0:45

We were doing an experiment. It was a jet engine test facility, aircraft engine, fighter engines. We had an engine in the test facility, and we were using infrared imaging systems to look up the back end of the engine to determine the temperature of the surfaces. Very cutting-edge technology, infrared imaging, had never been used in a test facility like and this equipment was expensive. Like you know, in medical community it's the same kind of thing where you know something this big cost that much money. Yeah, it does. We ran these experiments and in the harsh environment of the engine, the equipment melted.

Maureen Zappala: 1:25

Melted Didn't just fail, didn't just like go offline, it like oozed, melted. I blamed myself because I looked at the data and I thought, oh, I should have seen that that temperature was getting too hot, I should have seen that the image looked a little wonky. It was. I completely owned the failure. But people with imposter syndrome tend to internalize failure and externalize success. In other words, they think if it went wrong, it was something I did. But if it went right, it's not because of anything I did, it's because I had a good team. Imposter syndrome is not the end of the road, it is the beginning of a new journey, because on the other side of you, battling and recognizing how to, minute by minute, handle your imposter syndrome, on the other side of that is a person of influence and power and able to see the greatness in you that is just so flippant obvious to everyone else around you.

Jeff Haffner: 2:29

And now our host Chris Comeaux.

Chris Comeaux: 2:32

Hello and Welcome to the Anatomy of Leadership. I am excited today we have with us Maureen Zappala. She's a keynote speaker and incredible author. In fact, I had the unique privilege of just getting to hear her at the National Partnership of Hospice and Healthcare Innovation early spring of 2025. So, Maureen, it's so good to have you. Thanks for being here.

Maureen Zappala: 2:52

Thanks, Chris, for having me.

Chris Comeaux: 2:54

Yeah, absolutely. Let me read from your bio so Maureen Zappala Apollo. She's a University of Notre Dame go Irish graduate and a former NASA propulsion engineer that's also known as a rocket scientist. She's an author and a keynote speaker. She works with high performers to overcome are you ready for it? The imposter syndrome. That's what we're going to be talking about today the secret self-doubt that causes competent people to feel like frauds. She's a licensed associate at the Imposter Syndrome Institute, which is the world's leading source of imposter syndrome solutions. Maureen was the first female and the youngest manager of NASA's Propulsion Systems Laboratory in Cleveland, Ohio, and in fact, in 2009 and 2020, she was in the top 10 of 30,000 contestants in the Toastmasters World Championship of Public Speaking. That's a pretty awesome honor and accomplishment. She's the author of five books, including the recently released Get your Best People to Give their Best Effort, and after 40 years in Ohio, Maureen now lives in Las Vegas, Nevada. She's an avid fitness fan and a rookie ballroom dancer. Welcome, Maureen.

Maureen Zappala: 4:00

Thank you, Chris. Gosh, that sounds so accomplished.

Chris Comeaux: 4:04

And man making a move to Las Vegas. That's actually pretty cool.

Maureen Zappala: 4:07

Yeah.

Chris Comeaux: 4:09

And are you enjoying it in Las Vegas?

Maureen Zappala: 4:11

You know I've been here six years. It took me three years to love it. It really did the first three years. The best I could say was well, I don't hate it.

Chris Comeaux: 4:21

That's really cool. Well, I want to ask you a question that I've just literally almost stumbled into in the early part of the Anatomy of Leadership podcast, and now it's just a staple of the show, and I love the answers that I get from our guests. So, the question is what is your superpower?

Maureen Zappala: 4:37

I think when I talk about Imposter Syndrome, a lot of it is not being able to own your greatness. I teach people how to do that, so I kind of model it and I think my superpower is that I have this really bizarre good mix of being very analytical because I'm an engineer very left brain, logical and very creative and emotional and colorful and very picture oriented, so I have this kind of weird combination of both of them but it works.

Chris Comeaux: 5:09

You're a unicorn because that left brain, right brain that normally doesn't come in the same packaging. I mean just to sit there, I guess you know I heard you from the stage originally and you know, heard about and you're an incredible speaker. So, for our listeners you'll get that over the course of the, but you don't get to see her perform on stage. The very best public speakers are a bit of performers.

Chris Comeaux: 5:30

But what I love about Maureen because and you may know, Meredith Elliott Powell, Maureen she's a really good friend. She was my mentor, my executive coach, we've had her on the podcast and so she's kind of introduced me to that world of national speaking and some people are just true performers, but the people that have depth are probably the most potent and powerful. And I just want to give you that compliment because you have incredible depth and I just heard just incredible stories at the time you were at NASA and that's when I thought, okay, I've really got to get to meet her. And then here we are today, here on the podcast. So, you are a bit of a unicorn having both of those.

Maureen Zappala: 6:06

Thank you, I appreciate that.

Chris Comeaux: 6:09

Well, let's jump in. So, the Anatomy of Leadership podcast comes from the concept of my book, the Anatomy of Leadership. Maureen, I'm an accountant and so you know good accountants organize oodles of information and take the complex and make it somewhat understandable, and so I love leadership and I'm an accountant, so maybe that makes me a bit of a unicorn. And if you Google the word leadership until the AI, you would actually get 6 billion hits. Now we get an executive AI summary, and 6 billion hits is like this world of, just like all these different theories et cetera. So, my offering to the world is this was the table of contents of what is leadership, hence the anatomy of leadership. So, the point of the podcast is consistently just trying to put meat on the bone, like my table of contents maybe was 20 miles wide and maybe 12 inches deep, and so I love bringing people on that literally add depth to leadership.

Chris Comeaux: 6:59

And, man, just hearing you talk about the imposter syndrome. This is such. If all leaders are 100% honest, we all struggle with this. I shared with you coming into this meeting. In fact, last night I was like debating. I've got Maureen on the show. What do I wear? Should I wear a full suit and you know what I kind of went with like a mid because I thought you know it kind of honors the imposter syndrome, because I thought you know it kind of honors the imposter syndrome, even the people you think that are the most confident, articulate, if they're totally honest at every point in life. We all struggle with this. So, my first question to you is what is the imposter syndrome? How does it show up differently in maybe high-performing, bold and brilliant team members, maybe compared to the rest of the team?

Maureen Zappala: 7:43

Great question and I'll say this it doesn't just show up in the high performing people. You're right, it does show up in everybody. But it doesn't just show up. It often is camouflaged as something else. It is camouflaged as high performance. In fact, if you are a leader, chances are your high performers that you think are not your problem child and they're not.

Maureen Zappala: 8:08

Because they are high performers, those folks are struggling with Imposter Syndrome, and you don't even know it. So, when I speak about imposter syndrome, which is that irrational self-doubt that affects high performers, it doesn't affect the average and low performers. They're pretty happy, just kind of plugging along, doing life, making things happen on their terms. It's the people that are excelling, educating, breaking records, setting the world on fire, becoming known as experts or qualified and competent in their field. Those are the ones that struggle with it. So, it hits people in a very personal level. It makes them feel like, oh, I'm not qualified to do this job, or today's the day that everybody will figure out that I'm faking it, so I feel like a fraud. It hits people on a personal level, but it also affects organizations, because leaders don't know that their people struggle with it, because leaders don't know that their people struggle with it, and people that struggle with it tend to kind of morph into anxiety, overwhelm, exhaustion, fear, fear of stepping up, speaking out, standing out.

Chris Comeaux: 9:26

So, it hits people at an individual level, but it also has a corporate component as well. So, it presents itself like you know, there's a lot of talk about burnout and so in many cases it could be presenting as burnout and our mutual friend, Carole Fisher. So, we teach in Teleios University, we have a one-year leadership certification course, and we use Dr Lee Thayer I don't know if Carole ever spoke to you. He was actually Stephen Covey's mentor as close to a human Yoda as possible, even sounded like Yoda with the raspy voice, and so we draw from his well of wisdom and Carole took a quote of his and re-manufactured it and she says frequently are you willing to let go of who you are, to become who you could be?

Chris Comeaux: 10:06

And my maybe explanation of what she's poking on is you could have been incredibly successful getting to where you are today and be so miserable because of that imposter syndrome and maybe the headwaters of the imposter syndrome, and the world's looking at you going man, you're rocking it, you're knocking it out of the park and internally you are miserable, not enjoying yourself, no joy involved in the job. And so what she's poking on is what basically has gotten you here, may not get you there. Are you willing to let go of who you are to become who you could be? Does that resonate in how you coach and teach on the imposter syndrome?

Maureen Zappala: 10:44

Yeah, absolutely it does, Chris. It is a thought process distortion. We are creatures of habit. We if you were to think through how you get ready in the morning, you almost don't remember it because it's so automatic, because it's so routine and so muscle-memoried. Our thoughts are the same way. When we face a situation, we automatically default to a specific thought pattern and oftentimes that thought pattern for people with imposter syndrome is oh, I don't think I'm qualified, I don't have what it takes. Yeah, I did that, but I can't do that. I can't do what's next? So, it's not a lack of confidence, it is a limit of confidence because you don't truly. You've just talked yourself into a negative thought pattern. So, we have to break the pattern. We have to rethink thoughts; we have to re-language things to ourselves, and we have to redefine things like competence and what defines success and how do I handle feedback or failure. We have to redefine those instead of letting them automatically drag us down.

Chris Comeaux: 11:58

Wow, well, maybe this is a good segue question then. So, I imagine there are probably hidden costs in organizations where imposter syndrome is almost like brewing under the surface, or maybe it's just not being addressed and probably affecting what? Team culture, productivity. So, what would you say? So, are there those hidden costs?

Maureen Zappala: 12:18

Oh, absolutely. I remember speaking to a manufacturing organization two or three years ago. A fellow in the audience came up to me and said oh my gosh, I didn't realize how much my reticence, my hesitation to speak up on a topic can be costing the company. And I said well, I don't know what you mean. Tell me more. He said I work in the manufacturing, he's a supervisor in the manufacturing plant. And he said when he sees something amiss, he second guesses himself and thinks who am I to bring that up? Maybe I'm imagining it, maybe it's not that big a deal, maybe I'll just wait until somebody else does. Meanwhile, a flaw in the manufacturing process, a quality control issue, something amiss with people that are hands-on in the manufacturing, all of those things propagate to a flawed product which affects bottom line, which affects customer satisfaction, customer experience. I mean it just has a ripple effect because one person fears speaking up. If you solve that problem, the bigger problem goes away.

Chris Comeaux: 13:32

Wow, and we talk about this in healthcare because, especially like surgical errors, like how can they occur when the nurse was standing there and like, well, he's a world-renowned surgeon, who am I to say I think he's about ready to operate on the wrong leg.

Maureen Zappala: 13:45

A hundred percent yeah.

Chris Comeaux: 13:48

But yet that person is highly trained, incredibly competent, and like that self-talk I mean major medical errors. We're so much to the point that one of the leading causes of death actually is going to get health care in some places, and you think of the years of schooling and technical skills involved in that. Well, I want to ask you this question, because I got to hear part of your story. Was there a defining moment in your own career when you realized maybe imposter syndrome was holding you back, and how did you overcome that?

Maureen Zappala: 14:20

You know I didn't know about imposter syndrome when I worked at NASA, but I do know that while I was at NASA and it was a 14-year glorious career, I loved it there were still a lot of moments where I felt unsure of myself. I felt incompetent or incompetent, unqualified. I really believe and you probably remember this from my keynote when I got hired at NASA it was in a season when NASA was really pushing to have more women on staff. So, I really thought, oh, the only reason they hired me was because I'm a girl, so I had you know, all of my technical and scholastic achievements and qualifications meant nothing. What mattered was the fact I checked a box. So, I struggled with feeling like I really even deserve to be there on my own merit. So, I didn't know it was imposter syndrome until years later and it was actually.

Maureen Zappala: 15:18

I read a book called the Secret Thoughts of Successful Women by a woman named Valerie Young. She's the one that created the Imposter Syndrome Institute that you mentioned. The book has been retitled Secret Thoughts of Successful Women and Men because men struggle with it as well. But that book when I read that book seriously, it was like the veil lifted from my eyes and I thought that's what I struggled with. So, I've made it my lifelong journey, my mission, my passion to learn more about it and teach people and guide people and challenge people and encourage people to think differently about their own competence and abilities.

Chris Comeaux: 15:58

Well, you told so many great stories from this stage. Can you maybe just share a little bit with our listeners of, like? You could probably look back to the rear of your mirror, right, that you were struggling with an imposter syndrome, but you did some pretty cool stuff when you're at NASA. Can you share?

Maureen Zappala: 16:13

Yeah, you know one story that I didn't share but I shared in one of. I've written two books on imposter syndrome. I think I tell the same story in both books. But there was a. We were doing an experiment. It was a jet engine test facility, aircraft engine, fighter engines. We had an engine in the test facility, and we were using infrared imaging systems to look up the back end of the engine to determine the temperature of the surfaces Very cutting-edge technology, infrared imaging had never been used in a test facility like this. So, we were really caught. And this equipment was expensive. Like you know, in medical community it's the same kind of thing where you know something this big costs that much money. Yeah, it does.

Maureen Zappala: 16:58

We ran these experiments and in the harsh environment of the engine the equipment melted. Melted didn't just fail, didn't just like go offline, it like oozed, melted. And it was it. I blamed myself because I looked at the data and I thought, oh, I should have seen that that temperature was getting too hot. I should have seen that the image looked a little wonky. I completely owned the failure. And here's what's the thing about imposter syndrome especially there is a gender component to it. But people with imposter syndrome tend to internalize failure and externalize success. In other words, they think if it went wrong it was something I did, but if it went right, it's not because of anything I did, it's because I had a good team. So, anyway, so this equipment failed, melted.

Maureen Zappala: 17:57

I was horrified. We had to go buy more equipment which was a huge amount of money put it back in, set up some other safety parameters to prevent it from happening again. And so, we started running the test again and I was so on alert that I said what, what, what? We have to stop the test right now, shut everything down, turn off the engine. I want to go in and make sure that that equipment is still healthy.

Maureen Zappala: 18:21

Even though there was no evidence to suggest that there was anything wrong, I still felt like I had to second guess what we did. And, of course, we shut everything down, turned the engine off, went in. Equipment was fine. It was about a three-hour delay in the project we took. You know, we went back up online, went on with the test and everything was fine. So, I tell that story because I didn't trust my instincts, I didn't trust my team, I didn't trust the ability to correct a problem. There was no way we could have foreseen that this was going to happen. It's just the nature of doing research. Stuff happens; things fail. Equipment melts when you put it at the tail end of a jet engine, you know with flame coming out. So, we just tend to put so much pressure on ourselves to know everything, to do everything perfectly, to have no flaws, to be the one with all the answers, and it's just far too much pressure to put on ourselves because nobody, nobody can do it perfectly.

Chris Comeaux: 19:30

I wonder, Maureen, just listening to you, you're such a good storyteller by the way, again, you're a bit of a unicorn to have that engineering mindset. Did you use that looking back? Because I find sometimes maybe what helps become what I would say more authentic, like that own personal struggle about the imposter syndrome is being smartly transparent, and sometimes that's doing that via storytelling, sometimes owning up to the screw up when you look back. Did you do that throughout your career at NASA, like naturally telling those stories over and over again?

Maureen Zappala: 20:04

No, because I didn't develop my communication and storytelling skills until much later, in fact, when I was at NASA, and I was promoted into a management position. I was promoted to the facility manager, which is essentially like a plant manager of the propulsion systems lab, the whole jet engine test facility. Pretty significant promotion. I had to make a lot of presentations, and my boss would tell me all the time Maureen, you're terrible.

Chris Comeaux: 20:31

That's amazing to say that now.

Maureen Zappala: 20:35

Well, he was right. I was terrible because I didn't understand some of the things that you talk about how to take facts and turn it into a narrative, to turn it into story. We absorb things with story. I didn't know about how to make a connection with the people who were, you know, looking at me and listening to me. I didn't know how to use visual tools like flow charts and PowerPoint and videos to enhance the story instead of become the crutch for me to tell the story. So all of those techniques, all of those skills I actually learned after I left NASA, I was am still part of Toastmasters, which teaches people how to communicate well.

Chris Comeaux: 21:17

That was like. That just is encouraging to me that you're, I mean, top 10 out of 30,000 people like you're at the top 1%, and then to say what you just said is just strangely encouraging and yeah, just encouraging, like if someone could get to the top like you and then yet you could be that transparent about your past experience. I think that just gives a lot of people hope to go. Well, you know what then? If Maureen is at that level now, surely, I could get a little bit better. But yet that voice in my head might be telling me I am awful, I will always be awful. I will never be able to do a podcast or whatever, get up on stage and give a keynote.

Maureen Zappala: 21:54

Well, I'm sure you've seen, Chris, the more you do it, the better you get at it. You learn what works, what doesn't work. You learn what feels consistent with who you are, compared to what feels forced or choreographed or staged, and listeners and audience members, they know, they feel that they feel when you're being inauthentic.

Chris Comeaux: 22:15

That is incredibly well said and again coming from you, that just is so encouraging. So, from your experience, what are some of the most common leadership mistakes that just unintentionally maybe fuel that imposter syndrome where they maybe spiral in some cases?

Maureen Zappala: 22:33

Let's see the most common mistakes for leaders. Well, again, I come at it from two different perspectives the leader who, himself or herself, struggles with imposter syndrome, much like the people that they're leading, as well. As the leader who leads people with imposter syndrome because there's two different aspects there, leads people with imposter syndrome because there's two different aspects there. The person with imposter syndrome, the first. I think the first mistake that they could be making is assuming that it's a character flaw or, on the flip side, that it is their superpower. It is neither. It is not something that means that you are flawed, nor does it mean something that you need in order to achieve.

Maureen Zappala: 23:17

There is a narrative out there that says imposter syndrome is your superpower, so you need to embrace it, and it means that you're on the path of success. No, it accompanies you on the path, but it's not necessary to put you on the path. It is something that needs to be addressed because it truly does hold you back. Hold you back from your greatest potential, your greatest achievements, your peace, your dignity. It shortchanges you from so many different things.

Maureen Zappala: 23:47

But I think another mistake that people make is to think that it is a once and done. That you know I'm just going to talk myself out of it and that's the end of imposter syndrome. No, imposter syndrome does kind of creep in every time something changes or there's some big transition, a new job, a new boss, a new assignment. It could even be that today's Friday and yesterday was Thursday. You know, it could be that it's a different day. So, getting, I know people say get comfortable with being, get comfortable with being. What's the get comfortable with being uncomfortable? I guess the best way to say it. I say get familiar with being uncomfortable, because if you say get comfortable with it, you're kind of resigning yourself to being miserable.

Maureen Zappala: 24:42

But to say I'm familiar with it makes you think, oh, I've been here before, I know how to get through it. Big difference.

Chris Comeaux: 24:56

That's really good. There are two analogies we use in Teleios University. One comes from Shirzad Chamine, the Positive Intelligence guy. Go up on the balcony of your life and then Stephen Covey used to say project yourself to the top of the room. Dr Thayer called it de-center yourself, and it's almost like to step outside of yourself. It was like another way of what you're saying, cause I've never thought about that, cause you hear it all the time get comfortable, being uncomfortable, that, yeah, that does.

Chris Comeaux: 25:20

And I love your approach cause it didn't strike me the first time I heard you say it that there are those two opposing. Like I am just fatally flawed, gosh, I hope no one sees these macro flaws, I am just screwed up, or this is my superpower. And then you get this perverse cozying up to it and probably at that level they're absolutely miserable. And what I love thinking about your approach is it's a true way of enjoying the journey and ultimately being a better version of yourself. It embraces learning and growth as part of the journey. In my book I call that self-mastery, but yet there is kind of a shadow side of that word. Like there's a day you're going to kick your feet up and go. Yeah, I think I got that thing licked. No, it's about this journey. It's the best way I could describe it at this point in my life is.

Chris Comeaux: 26:14

I have a healthy satisfaction with where I am, and I have a healthy dissatisfaction with where I am.

Maureen Zappala: 26:17

Oh, I love that, and I say both of those with integrity.

Maureen Zappala: 26:20

Yeah, that is absolutely beautiful. Valerie Young, the woman I said who wrote the book Secret Thoughts, talks about being a humble realist. Who wrote the book Secret Thoughts, talks about being a humble realist. Being humble about your abilities and humble means being 100% accurate, you know, not downplaying or overplaying what you're capable of and then being a realist, which is accepting what you don't know or what your limits are or what your talents aren't, and there's no shame in any of that. I say that I'm a beginner ballroom dancer. I think I'm going to be a beginner ballroom dancer for the rest of my life because I haven't been dancing since I was five.

Chris Comeaux: 27:00

Did you and I actually wanted to circle back to that and when I was reading your bio, did you do that to stretch yourself, Like what's the backstory in the ballroom dancing?

Maureen Zappala: 27:14

Okay, a hundred percent transparency.

Sona Benefits: 27:16

I did it to impress a hot guy because he was a dancer.

Chris Comeaux: 27:21

And he floated away but I love the dancing, so I stuck with it. That's cool, well, and I think there's a fitting metaphor because again, this to me is like a good segue to what you just said Like great leadership is about improvisation and some aspects of it's like a dance and you know, it's not exactly choreographed on a day-to-day basis and maybe the best dancers right there is kind of a step-to-step, but then the best ones have they've got the basics. It's almost like jazz in the form of dance.

Maureen Zappala: 27:48

Yeah, a lot of impromptu, a lot of yeah feeling it and doing it.

Chris Comeaux: 27:51

Does that kind of resonate?

Maureen Zappala: 27:53

Oh, absolutely 100%.

Chris Comeaux: 27:55

Well, maybe this is a good kind of segue. So, what strategy? So, we've really, I think we've done a good job of defining it. Let's get to kind of maybe the I hate to say solution, because we live in the drive-through give me the pill, give me the silver bullet. My guess is you're going to say it ain't that. But what are some practical strategies that they could use to help just start to silence that inner critic and maybe start living better into their more authentic self?

Maureen Zappala: 28:22

Sure, I teach five strategies actually. The first one is to recognize what it is, understand the symptoms. First one is to recognize what it is, understand the symptoms, and there's probably I don't know 10, 11 symptoms, or also called coping mechanisms, that qualify imposter syndrome. Things like over-preparing or procrastinating, and sometimes, at the same time, things like being afraid of failure and not just like, oh, I just don't know if this is going to work out, but being so terrified of failure that you catastrophize ridiculously almost improbable endings and you think, well, if that's going to happen, I'm not even going to try. Things like fear of or disdain of success. I remember when I got promoted into the facility manager position, one of my biggest concern was what will my co-workers think of me? I'll be a level above them? Will they still like me, and will the crew respect me Because I was the youngest and the first woman to have the position? So, we disdain success, we wonder how is it going to change us? And if it's going to change me too much, I don't know if I, I don't know if I deserve that. So, there are a lot of symptoms. So, to understand the symptoms, that would be the first strategy. And when you understand them and you recognize then how pervasive it is. There is an awful lot of oh, wow, you're right. And you look around and you think, wow, I'm not the only one that feels like this. There is so much release in the grip that imposter syndrome can have on you. So that would be the first strategy.

Maureen Zappala: 30:08

The second strategy, then, is truly to change your thinking process, and it's a strategic, sequential, disciplined, intentional rethinking the thoughts that got you there. I mentioned earlier that we're on autopilot so often with our thoughts. We need to arrest the autopilot and take control. We need to take control of that throttle and that steering wheel and say, oh no, okay, I'm in a symptom. That's why it's important to know a symptom, because you have to recognize when you're in the grip of one of the symptoms. And then you think to yourself I'm going to think differently about this. Why is it? I think that that's the worst that's going to happen. What if it doesn't happen? What would I do if it could succeed? So, you systematically challenge your thinking and change your thoughts, which then, of course, changes your behavior.

Maureen Zappala: 31:05

And then a third strategy is understanding how, when we get around other people, it is so tempting and human to do the compare and despair, like I think I'm doing pretty good until I got next to her, wow, she's doing so much better and recognize that yes, you've done well, she's done well, but our well is different and we have different skills, abilities, experiences, histories, perspective, priorities and nobody's well. And if you remember, I referred to the dot Within your dot is your circle of influence. Everybody's experience is just different. Nobody’s better or worse.

Maureen Zappala: 31:54

And truly owning that and being proud of it, lifting your head up and shoulders back and being excited about that, that is so key and critical, and not allowing somebody else's experience to diminish you in any way because that is so unhealthy. So those are the three main strategies I teach. There's also a deeply spiritual element to this, a transcendental element, because it's born out of shame, and shame is a deep issue. It's very human, it's very intimate. So, overcoming imposter syndrome will be very intimate and transcendental and you cannot shortchange that. And then my fifth strategy it's about truly Having a vision for your life, understanding what rocks you out of bed in the morning, what keeps your soul on fire, and understanding where your identity comes from. And those last two are very closely related because they're deeply transcendental and spiritual and intimate.

Chris Comeaux: 33:01

You and I are 100% aligned on four and five. I poke on some of that in my book, but you put a whole lot more meat on the bone. I want to come back to number four in just a second, but one of the things that occurs to me in my own journey. So, I went through the Thayer Institute. So, I kind of studied under Dr Thayer for almost four years and I was his graduate assistant for four years, so like eight years under Yoda young Skywalker, and it was pretty transformative for my life and at that time I could look back and go.

Chris Comeaux: 33:32

I'm sure you've used multiple personality temperament tests in your career. So, the one that we use is called Management by Strengths as Colors. It goes back to Hippocrates. So, my natural temperament is that very outgoing. What's called sanguine. Challenge of sanguines is you want to be liked, and so I could not make some of the tough decisions because that core like that imposter inside is well, you'd make this tough decision, they're not going to like you.

Chris Comeaux: 33:56

So, during my time with Dr Thayer, I started to develop that muscle, but that muscle being performed was kind of icky. In fact, one of the team members, I work with now we were working together. At the time she left and was a CEO on her own and now we get to work together, and I always had that feeling of I lost her during that time because it was not authentic. It was just kind of coming across as a jerk and so having that fire for people's cause and purpose but making it necessary that none of us are defaulting ourselves.

Chris Comeaux: 34:30

I'm very much still a work in progress, but I could look back in that time and go man, I didn't do that good at all, went from one extreme to the other. So that's my point is, as people are on this journey of wrestling with their imposter, trying to become a more authentic version of themselves there's probably that gangly teenager stage trying to become a more authentic version of themselves there's probably that gangly teenager stage. What advice do you have for them during that time of? Is there a way to do that better? Is there a way not for it to come across just awful because you're trying to realize a better version of yourself?

Maureen Zappala: 35:02

Yeah, I think that's so true in so many areas of our lives that you know. I think that's so true in so many areas of our lives that you know change, especially change that we did not pursue or initiate, is hard. It's uncomfortable, it is a gangly teenager kind of thing. But I tell you, the gift of time, the beauty, the miracle of the passage of time is truly amazing. Because guess what? This too shall pass. One of my favorite Bible teachers would always say hangeth thou in there, o baby, this too shall pass. You will get through it. And people like us that are committed to you know learning and growing and we have growth mindset, and we just see life as a one big opportunity after another and we're very self-aware it will get better and, yeah, it's going to be painful. You're going to look back and think, oh, icky, oh, how did I do that?

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Maureen Zappala: 36:55

Just pick up and head forward. And one of the things, too, that I should have mentioned earlier regarding, you know, the skills and abilities that we have, and it kind of aligns with what you're saying. Skills and abilities, they you know, we're not born with them. We learn them as we go, we go to school for them, we learn them on the job, blah, blah, blah. Character traits those are established at a young age. They develop, they morph, they get fine-tuned. We figure out who we truly are in terms of, you know, are we optimistic, are we playful, are we curious, are we hard-working? Those character qualities are the steady throughput through our lives. So, when you can look back and think, oh, I was a jerk, well. So, when you can look back and think, oh, I was a jerk, well, maybe it was just part of you kind of morphing those character qualities to be a better person. So instead of looking back with disdain, you say, OK, that was a learning experience, Look ahead with anticipation.

Chris Comeaux: 38:03

I love that. That's beautifully cleaned up. Can you and this may be a question to give people hope Can you think of a story of just a leader or team that you could look at them and they went on that journey, addressed the imposter, became a better version of themselves, and just any story that would give people hope that a lot of people have done this and it's a good thing.

Maureen Zappala: 38:26

When I was at NASA, the last boss that I had while I was there his name was John Schaefer, best boss ever and a dear friend, well-respected, quick on his feet, brilliant, well-respected, and I always held him up as the pinnacle of a great leader and he was. He led us well. We loved him. We were fiercely loyal to him. He would give our team there were seven of us on the team. He would give us work until our eyes rolled and we did it for him because we loved him. He had this uncanny way of just creating this rabid culture of loyalty. Fast forward. I left NASA, fast forward, I don't know 10, 15 years, and I was always invited back to my team's Christmas party every year. So, I came back to a Christmas party. He was at one of these parties and by this time I had become a speaker and was developing all of my content over imposter syndrome. So, I was like all yaddy-chaddy about it, and I said, john, I said, oh my gosh, you were the best boss I ever had. You taught me so much about leadership. And he said I had no idea what I was doing. I was shocked. Now he said I just kind of felt like I was winging it. I especially didn't know how to handle. I was the first woman that he'd ever. I think he said oh, I was the first woman in that position. So, in the leadership roles I was the first woman that he had management authority over and I'm a girly, girl woman. I was showing up with my fake fingernails and streaked hair, very ladylike. He wasn't sure how to handle all that and that's not a flaw. But when he said all that, I realized.

Maureen Zappala: 40:22

Now I'm going to answer your question. Your question is how did people change? My answer is we don't always know when they change because we don't even know that they struggled with it. So, their journey for the most part is very unseen to us, but it still is very real to them. He was a great leader, in spite of the fact that he felt like he wasn't. I wish I could go back and talk. We've lost touch because I live in Las Vegas now and he's still back in Cleveland. I wish I could go back and explore more of that with him, like, where have you come since then? I know he's retired by now, but my point is we don't always see the progress that people make, because on the surface we still see great performers. What we don't see now is their internal peace that they experience.

Chris Comeaux: 41:20

I love it. You took to that because that's what occurs to me the first off. I mean you're just such a treasure and the work you're doing is so important. I mean there's a lot of ladies in our network who are like you've got to have Maureen in the podcast. You've got to do it Because I think it was, so I think you're shining the light on. It's almost like this icky thing that they don't know that everybody is struggling with it and bringing it to the light. So just kudos, because I think that in itself is huge, because that performer in stage may look brilliant but you just don't know inside, they're miserable and we may not even be seeing a more brilliant version of them because that inner turmoil.

Maureen Zappala: 41:59

Yeah, yeah. And I tell you that inner turmoil is so destructive. You know that from being in the medical field. How you know what you don't see is so important Addressing that with clients and patients and employees, because that you know from the I'm a Bible girl. The Bible says from the heart comes the wellspring of life, you know. So, what you feel, what you think, what you believe affects how you act, how you think, how you accomplish, and if there's no peace there, ooh, that's tough for everybody.

Chris Comeaux: 42:35

You'll love this, Maureen. Dr Thayer's kind of magnum opus book was leadership, dot thinking, being doing as we think, so we are, as we are, so we will do. So, it's another way of saying exactly what you just said, and so.

Chris Comeaux: 42:52

I want to go back to your fourth step or stage, and so I am attempting to write my second book. Finding the time for it has just been really difficult and I have a way I want to do it. That I think will be just a different approach to the book, but part of it is going back through those stories in our lives and in my own journey. I could literally. There are moments I can tell you everything about that moment, like what the car seat looked like, and as I've struggled with my own imposter syndrome, I'm like where does that come from? And in my own life which I think it's true in other people's lives, it's something usually in our childhood.

Maureen Zappala: 43:30

Oh 100%.

Chris Comeaux: 43:31

And there's a vow that comes out of that and it plays throughout our lives and for some of the highest performers, people may look and go, wow, they're incredible, but there's not a healthy version of that and there's a better version of ourselves. And so, going back to the headwaters and revisiting that circumstance, for some people they might need a true licensed therapist, someone to walk alongside with them. Personally, it's been my faith practice. That's helped me and I have reinterpreted that story and I've rewritten the meaning of that story and that's now helping me think differently and show up differently. Not perfectly, I'm very much a work in progress, but my guess is that's what you're poking on with the fourth stage, but you may say it totally different.

Maureen Zappala: 44:15

Well, no, they're all so interrelated, there's so many layers to it, but something that you said that is so true we are a product of our upbringing right. A lot of imposter syndrome does come out of our childhood how our parents raised us. We were raised by parents that were trying to do the best. For the most part, they were trying to do the very best that they could. I'm a parent. I did the best I could. I think my kids will still be in therapy in 10 years, you know, because I wasn't all that perfect. But I say that because there are legitimate reasons, legitimate contributions to us feeling like an imposter.

Maureen Zappala: 44:51

Some of it is our childhood people that, like me, I was raised by parents that expected perfection, and so I identified my worth as how good my grades were, and I remember the first time I got a C. I got it in biology in high school. So, it was my sophomore year in high school. Before I got my first C, I thought I can't even go home. My parents will kill me. I'm just going to run away. And then I thought, well, I have to go home to pack the suitcase in order to run away. I might as well just go home and deal with it, right? So, you know, I was raised to be perfect. But then, on the flip side, sometimes there and we see a lot of it in a lot of the generation today children that are raised that simply the mere act of breathing is cause for celebration, and so everything they do, everything they are, is perfect and wonderful. And little Johnny is, you know, fabulous. And that kid grows up not being able to parse out good behavior, bad behavior, good results, bad results. So, they think everything is great. So that when they get into the real world and something fails, ouch, they don't know how to process that. So, they feel like a failure. So, childhood definitely contributes to it. Sometimes it's the corporate culture we're in. Sometimes it's the field that we've chosen.

Maureen Zappala: 46:08

It tends to hit people in STEM and creative fields, so science, technology, engineering and math, as well as any artistic endeavor. We tend to feel like we're not good enough or we're only as good as our last creative process or product. And how can I be good if all this technology is being developed and I can't keep up with it? So, we feel incompetent. It hits people in management. The higher up you go in an organization, the more you feel it, because now more eyeballs are on you and relying on you and there are fewer ears for you to bounce ideas off of. So, you feel very isolated.

Maureen Zappala: 46:51

It tends to hit entrepreneurs, who are, for the most part, pretty isolated unless they find a community where they can bounce ideas off of and kind of get camaraderie and companionship. It tends to hit people that are degreed or certified professionals think CPAs, financial planners, PhDs. It lives and breathes in the medical community, for sure, at all levels, from the person who's sweeping the floor in the hospital to the CEO of the hospital, let alone the researchers and the people that have patient contact. It hits people that are in the educational world, all the way up and down students, all the way up through PhD students and administrators and staff. It's pervasive, so there's a lot of legitimate reasons to make you feel like an imposter. It's pervasive, so there's a lot of legitimate reasons to make you feel like an imposter. The point is, my point is you don't have to stay there, it's just.

Chris Comeaux: 47:52

It's a yeah, it's not a yeah and it's a yeah, but wow, I love that you've said you're a Bible girl a couple of times. I love that. There's actually a couple of things I was thinking of I was listening to the other day, you know. First off, it goes back to the very beginning of the Bible, like the fig leaf, like the fig leaf is perfect, and they were found out, so they hid. So, there's some interesting correlators just listening to you. And this morning I was just putting some music on, trying to prepare a podcast today and lots of work to do, and it was on kind of a loop on Spotify, and it was a Mercy Me song about Dear Younger Me, are you?

Maureen Zappala : 48:27

familiar with that song. Oh yeah, oh yeah.

Chris Comeaux: 48:29

There's a lyric in that song that just caught me this morning and it said Dear Younger Me; you were not meant to carry this beyond the cross and the story of redemption is important. Whatever your faith, belief is, there's some level of redemption that each of us could benefit from. And again, that song just jumped out this morning and just listening to you I could see the corollaries of some really good kind of Bible meanings there.

Maureen Zappala: 49:03

Yeah, being a person of faith, I believe everything happens for a reason and the reason may not have anything to do with me. I have to kind of get out of this self-centered have anything to do with me, you know. I have to kind of get out of this self-centered, egocentric mode of like oh, why me, instead of what's the bigger purpose here? And it kind of comes down to one of the other strategies about being so rock solid, convinced of what rocks you out of bed in the morning what's your purpose, what's your vision, what's your mission? If it's just simply to satisfy yourself, you're going to come up short because we're fickle and we're just not able to fill those deep voids in our heart. It has to come from something outside of yourself A higher power, a higher purpose, whatever you call it. It has to be something outside of yourself.

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Chris Comeaux: 50:24

That's beautiful Cause and purpose. I'm 100% with you. Well, Maureen, why don't you land the plane? What final thoughts? This has been amazing. You are a treasure. I love that you're doing this work, thank you. I know there's so many people that are going to be so thankful for us doing this podcast together, but what final thoughts do you have?

Maureen Zappala: 50:42

My final thought is again, hang a felt in there. Oh baby, imposter syndrome is not the end of the road. It is the beginning of a new journey, because on the other side of you battling and recognizing how to, minute by minute, handle your imposter syndrome, on the other side of that is a person of influence and power and appropriate pride not the sinful pride like ain't I all that, but I'm proud of what I did. You'd be excited about your future, proud of your past and, like I said in my keynote, able to see the greatness in you that is just so flippant obvious to everyone else around you, and there's so much freedom in that.

Chris Comeaux: 51:29

Wow. Well, just to mirror that back to you again, Maureen, you are a unicorn. I'm watching you throughout this whole thing. That engineer mind, but that ability to be so thoughtful in your actual words that you use, that is a gift, and so I love how you've sharpened the own saw in your life and how you're bringing it to just make a good difference in the world.

Chris Comeaux 51:48

You're living your purpose. So, I appreciate you. 

Maureen Zappala: 51:53 I appreciate you, Chris. Thank you for saying that, and back at you.

Chris Comeaux: 51:55

Well, at the end of each episode, our listeners we always share a quote, a visual we called a Brain Bookmark. It's a thought prodder about our podcast subject to further your learning and growth. What we're going for is like a brain tattoo. And learning and growth. What we're going for is like a brain tattoo and so be sure to subscribe to our channel. We're going to include any links that Maureen wants to include links to her books. If you want to get in contact with her, please make sure you subscribe to the Anatomy of Leadership. We don't want you to miss an episode. Pay this forward to your friends, your co-workers. We're all struggling with imposter syndrome. This is such a great resource and man. I really want to see all of us live our cause and purpose. That's part of my cause and purpose. So, thanks for listening to the Anatomy of Leadership, and here's our Brain Bookmark to close today's show.

Brain Bookmark : 52:35

“Are you willing to let go of who you are to become who you could be.” by Carole Fisher