Ep. 19 Shayna Babb: How To Act Fast In A Child Choking or CPR Emergency

The scariest parenting moments usually don’t come with a warning. One second your baby is eating, playing, or fighting bedtime, and the next you’re trying to decide if it’s normal gagging, real choking, or something that needs CPR. I sit down with pediatric nurse, mom of three, and expert behind The Medical Mamas, Shayna Babb to get practical, calm, and specific about what to do when seconds matter during a child's medical emergency.

We unpack the important of CPR and choking education, and why “I’ll figure it out in the moment” is a dangerous plan. We talk through the most common choking hazards, the biggest mistakes to avoid (like blind finger sweeps), and the exact infant choking steps that could save your child's life. We also dig into her hot take on trendy dechoker devices, when they might help, and why your hands and knowledge should always come first and so much more.

More Of What We Discuss:
• why CPR and choking training matters because we are the first responder as parents
• how pediatric emergencies often start with sick lungs from RSV flu pneumonia and asthma 
• the differences between gagging versus choking 
• what NOT to do when a child is gagging
• a step-by-step demonstration of how to safely and effectively handle a choking emergency 
• why devices like dechokers can delay action if you do not practice  
• febrile seizures basics and the biggest misconception about them

Follow Shayna Babbs on Instagram @themedicalmamas

If you're interested in Shayna Babb's CPR, & Choking or Pediatrics 101 courses, use code MILK when you purchase for a price of $127 (usually $197).

Help do all that you can to educate our community and save children's lives by sharing this episode with your family, friends, and any caretakers in your lives. 

Follow The Milk Podcast on all platforms for weekly episodes that remind you you're not alone, you're not crazy, and you're doing way better than you think.

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Transcript

Welcome To The Milk

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Welcome to The Milk, the podcast that pours it all out. The messy, the magical, and the mildly unhinged moments of motherhood and womanhood. Real talk, honest stories, and reminders that none of us really know exactly what we're doing. And that's kind of the best part. I'm Taylor, your host and soon-to-be mom of three. So let's laugh, learn, and milk the season of life for all that it's worth.

Why Parents Avoid CPR Training

Meet The Pediatric Nurse Behind Medical Mamas

SPEAKER_02 0:20

Hi everyone, welcome back to another episode of The Milk. Today's episode is such an important one. It's something that so many parents never want to imagine happening, but also absolutely need to be prepared for, and that is choking and CPR emergencies. I feel like this is a topic that we are all so fearful of because we never want to imagine being put in that scenario that we as parents tend to avoid it, myself included. But avoiding the problem doesn't help us feel safer in this situation. Education does. So that is why I'm joined today by Shana Babb to help talk through and teach us all of the practical tools, why CPR and choking is so important. And my goal with today's episode is really just to help us as parents feel less panicked and fearful of getting in those types of situations, God forbid, but knowledge is power. And I really want us all to walk away with confidence and feeling empowered if that situation were to ever come up. So, Shayna Babb, welcome to The Milk. Thank you so much for having me. It's such an honor to be here. I'm so happy you joined. Shayna is also a mom of three. So after this, I'll definitely be talking to her about all the mom of three tips and tricks and hacks. Um, do you want to give a little intro of who you are and what you do?

SPEAKER_00 1:49

Yeah, so I'm Shayna. Um, that was a beautiful introduction, so thank you. Um, I am a wife to my high school sweetheart Taylor. So this year we're celebrating 18 years together, which is bananas. You look way too young for that. 18 years when we were 15. Insane. Yes. Um, and um we are, like you said, I'm a mom of three. So we've got three kids: a six-year-old, a five-year-old, and a one-year-old. Um, I'm currently a pediatric nurse. So I work at local children's hospital here in Orange County. Um, most of you probably know about chalk. It's now known as Radies Health Center Orange County. Um, and at Chalk, I'm a part of our vascular access team. And so I have the honor and privilege of taking care of the sickest kids in the hospital. Um, my husband is in law enforcement, and I kind of equate my job to like SWAT of law enforcement. Um, when things hit the fan in the hospital, our team is who they call. Um, so we place all the ultrasound guided IVs at central lines and arterial lines. And so over the last almost four years of being in this role, I've gotten to take care of truly the sickest kids in the hospital. And that's kind of what started the medical mamas. Basically, what I did is I created this course that covers infant, pediatric, and adult CPR and choking, and I created this kind of exclusive um pediatric illness course that covers the most common illnesses that I see come into the hospital. And so I teach families how to take care of their kids when they have fevers or if they get a seizure or they have like RSV, the flu, um dehydration, and it's kind of an all-encompassing course that I started teaching locally in Orange County, and the need has just been so great that I just recently launched digitally. So I'm really excited about it.

SPEAKER_02 3:32

I'm so excited about that. That's actually how I found you seeing on social media you teach groups. Yeah. And by a group I mean a mom and dad, the grandparents, if there's aunts and uncles or anyone with a child. And I was like, this is such an awesome idea because it shouldn't just be the parents that know how to do CPR or figure out how to be, how to handle choking situations. It should be anyone that is ever in care of that child.

SPEAKER_00 3:59

Yeah, totally. And I felt like in my, just like in my friend group, I have people messaging me all the time, like Shayna, my kid's growing up, or like my kid has RSV. Like, what am I supposed to do? And I kind of became like the on-call nurse for all my girlfriends, right? Especially just becoming a mom and having friends in the same season of motherhood as me. Um, they reached out to me for all the things, and I just realized like there is such a lack of knowledge in the community of what to do and like what to look for when your kids are sick. And unfortunately, I think it's like our pediatricians in the healthcare system is so inundated, right? Like pediatricians just have like a small slot of time to help you when your kid is sick. They don't have time to do preventative education or um go one step further past just the acute, like what you need to know in that moment. And so I feel like with the cool thing about what I've kind of created is I'm really empowering parents to be the nurse of their home so that when their kids are sick, they feel totally confident taking care of their babies. And I think um with CPR and choking, yes, obviously it's life-saving information, and it's you know, so I think every parent needs to know what to do in a medical emergency, but those aren't the things that happen on the day-to-day, it's really like the illnesses as well. And so combining it all into one has been a game changer, and I'm so proud to say that to date, my course has saved 13 kids' lives. No way, yeah, that is incredible and countless ER trips, but the life-saving part of it, and like you said, CPR and choking is that information is so important to know.

SPEAKER_02 5:29

Okay, now I'm dying to get into the medical course as well. We'll see how much time we have, but if not, anyone who's listening, we will schedule a separate episode where we can do like a QA and go through the most common medical issues that you see coming in out because you've seen the worst in the worst of the worst. Yeah, totally. And I mean, you are an angel on earth for what you do. I can't I can't imagine. You have to be like a special person who can leave their shit at the door when leaving work and go home because you're also a mom. Like I could not imagine what you see on the daily and then not bringing that home with you. It's kind of like a therapist in a way as well. Yeah. The heavy baggage that you probably deal with, and yeah.

The Hidden CPR Risks Beyond Drowning

SPEAKER_00 6:12

I I mean, I can't say that I am the best at separating it. Um I have found myself plenty of times driving home from work sobbing. Um, I definitely have like survivor's guilt sometimes because I get to come home to my healthy babies and I just like held a mom that got to hold her baby for the last time. Um, there's definitely a lot of um the shrieking cries in the hallways that like will you never unhear it.

SPEAKER_02 6:39

They haunt you.

SPEAKER_00 6:40

Yeah, they haunt you for sure. Um the faces of the babies that you get to take care of as they're pronounced brain dead or um you know that kind of stuff is it's really heavy. Um and so thank you for your kindness. Um I it's such an honor that a parent would trust me to take care of their most prized possession. Um and so I don't look at it as like it's my work. Um, I think I'm just a vessel. Um and it and I get to be a part of somebody's journey in the most vulnerable moments of their life. And so being a small part in making a difference in a family's life in that kind of a situation when a kid is really critical, it's not me. I just feel like I'm a vessel to like show light and love, and um it's truly a privilege and an honor to be in that moment with these families and to get to pray over these babies is it's like heaven comes down to earth. It's really, really special.

SPEAKER_02 7:36

Yeah, I can imagine that. Yeah, but also you the work that you you also do through the courses that you create like this, yeah, they they are saving lives. Like you have to acknowledge too, like the like you're not just a vessel, like thank you, what you're putting out there, you saying that you've saved 13 children's lives, and you also saying that these are the things that don't happen as often as you know, medical emergencies of fevers or illnesses, like 13 is a lot for how uncommon it is to experience CPR. That's insane.

SPEAKER_00 8:10

Yeah, I feel like my motto in the business and the medical mamas is always that I'd rather teach you the tools and knowledge that you know you need to know before you need it than you need it and not have it. So it's like I always like my heart in this is to empower parents to feel confident um handling medical emergencies, but also, like I said, just the day-to-day stuff. Like my kid fell on the playground and hit their head. What am I looking out for? Um, what are signs and symptoms that I should raise concern to my pediatrician, or at what point do I need to escalate this and come to the ER? Um, and so I feel like it is such an honor to be in this space and just to see families time and time again book me and trust me, and then just spread the word has been incredible to witness. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 8:56

Well, I know that after this I'm gonna be booking a family CPR course. If you want to make the trip over here, I'm gonna get my parents, my sisters, my nanny, my everyone to come and take it, especially with a new baby coming and three kids. We're gonna have to have all hands on deck. So I'll be booking you and spreading the word. Um, I wanted to start really simply with just the why. Why do you tell parents and families, like what is the importance? Why do you empower parents and families to become certified or knowledgeable in CPRN choking?

SPEAKER_00 9:31

Yeah, that's a great question. Really, because you are your child's first responder. So at the end of the day, when kids choke or um they go into a cardiac or respiratory arrest at home, or you know, you're at the park and a kid collapses, you are there before fire and police are. Um, where we live in Orange County, we're so blessed. There's fire stations. I feel like I can throw a rock and like hit a fire station or police station. So um, you know, we are so blessed that we have access to these resources so close within minutes. But at the end of the day, every second matters when someone goes down in an arrest or somebody's choking. Um, the more time that the brain doesn't have oxygen, right, the more damage happens to the brain. And that's irreversible damage. So we can't get that back, right? Those cells die and you can't regenerate them. And so at the end of the day, I think it's so important in my why is simply because you are your child's first responder. Um and you are also your child's advocate. Nobody knows your baby as well as you do. And so equipping you with the knowledge on how to advocate for your child is really why I started this business.

SPEAKER_02 10:36

It's so important because even myself, like before having Aspen, we did a CPR course and we took it, we checked it off our list, but there's something different about being in that moment. And I feel like all of that would just go out the window.

SPEAKER_01 10:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 10:54

Where it's almost like we need to make sure and prioritize of like healthy refreshers. Totally. And something like your course, you can once you get it, you can refresh at any point, right?

SPEAKER_00 11:05

Yeah. So my digital course is a one-time fee and it's a lifetime access. So you can watch it as often as you need. Um, I think something I always tell families is you are, as especially first-time moms and dads, you are inundated with things, right? This stroller and this brand, this, and this breast pump and these clothes, and like there's so many brands out there, right? But are you investing your time and energy in things that are actually going to save your child's life? Because at the end of the day, if something happens to your baby, who cares what stroller you had or what outfit they were wearing, right? Um, the best thing, in my opinion, that you can invest in as a parent or even like as a grandparent, like you mentioned, or um as a caregiver or a family member is being able to help in the event of an emergency. And so this course I think is um really should be the top priority of every parent's need to have before the baby comes or before the next baby comes.

SPEAKER_02 12:03

And I love how you talk about being prepared before something like that ever were to happen rather than like in the moment. Because I think a lot of the time, one, we just try to avoid these types of things because it's an uncomfortable conversation. And I'm sure even some people listening might be like, Oh, I really don't want to have to listen to this. Like, I'm feeling uncomfortable about it. I don't want to imagine this happening to me. Or two, you're like, I'll just figure it out in the moment, but every second counts. It's totally I know chat GPT is right there nowadays, but it's not like you can be like, oh, my child is unconscious, not breathing. Let me go on chat GPT. How what do I do? Yeah. So I mean, this is this selfishly for myself. I'm like, I personally need a refresher. Yeah. And I could I would never forgive myself if something were to happen and I were to be like, I had 100%, I had 100% of the opportunity to know what to do before this happened. Totally. So that's kind of why we're here today. Yeah. Just out of curiosity, when I think of CPR with kids, um, most of the time my head goes to choking or God forbid, drowning. Yeah. Those types of things. Are there any other moments that you see most common for the need for CPR with children besides those?

SPEAKER_00 13:21

Totally. Um, so yes, choking is considered a medical emergency, right? So choking is not gagging. And I think that's like such a common misconception as parents. I know for me, like I mentioned, I have a one-year-old, a five-year-old, and a six-year-old. Um, and so with my six-year-old, when we first started solids with her, we did baby-led weaning, um, which, if you guys don't know what that is, um, it's basically a way of introducing solids in a safe, um, it's like the food is prepped safely, um, but you're really just giving them whole foods right away. Um, if you're not into baby-led weaning and that scares you, I totally understand. The good news is your kid will not go to college on purees, so we're good. They're eventually gonna figure it out. I always tell families like, do what feels best for you and don't feel pressured to do what your neighbor's doing or what your best friend's doing, right? Um, but yeah, choking can become a medical emergency because you know, an object gets lodged in an airway. Um, and then that leads to a respiratory arrest. Um, and so a respiratory arrest is essentially your lungs stop working, and your lungs are responsible for oxygenating the body, um, and that filters our blood so that it provides oxygen and ships it back to the heart so that your heart, as the pumper, is gonna push that oxygen out to your vital organs. And so if your lungs stop working because there's an occlusion in the airway and the lungs aren't getting oxygen, secondarily your heart's gonna stop and you're gonna go into a cardiac arrest, in which case we would need CPR. Um, and so that's kind of like the physiologic process of choking and CPR. Drowning, you know, is the number one leading cause of death in kids under the age of four, actually. Um, which to me is so wild that we don't talk about drowning more because it is the number one killer of kids under the age of four, um, especially where we live in Southern California.

SPEAKER_02 15:05

Summer months coming up and all of that.

SPEAKER_00 15:07

And our weather, it's been like 90 degrees, like it's been beautiful. And so I think um drowning is like a huge topic that I'm extremely passionate about because every year I probably take care of at least 13 kids that drowned. Um and it's always accidental and it's the it's the biggest leading cause of death and it's the most preventable cause of death. Like we can prevent drowning. And so um, yeah, that obviously fluid goes into the lungs, same thing. We go into the kids go into a respiratory arrest and it leads to a cardiac arrest. Um, but honestly, things like um flu, pneumonia, RSV, um, these are all respiratory um conditions that essentially your lungs stop oxygenating well. And so kids oftentimes actually go into an arrest primarily because of sick lungs. Most kids are born with healthy hearts. Adults, they tend to go into arrest because they're noncompliant, high blood pressure, high cholesterol, they're obese, whatever, right? It's lifestyle problems usually. So their hearts stop because they're noncompliant and they don't live a healthy lifestyle. But kids usually are born with pretty healthy hearts. And so they actually go into arrest initially because of sick lungs. So asthma, um, not knowing the signs and symptoms of increased work of breathing, and not knowing as a mom how viruses work and how suctioning the upper airway is crucial before it drips down into the lower airway, things like that, right? Um, it can cause the lungs to get so sick that if these kids are sick for days and days and days and parents aren't being proactive and knowing when to take their kid in for further care, um, these kids can go into respiratory rest at home. So it's not just the things that you think of, like the choking and the drowning. Like, yes, those are the big, big things, but it's the everyday things, like the kid who has persistent asthma and mom doesn't understand that disease process, right? Um, that causes these kids to go into an arrest.

SPEAKER_02 16:56

And I'm sure those are more common, but like it's not where our mind goes first when we think of having to do CPR. Yeah. Is that it does RSV fall in that category as well? Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 17:07

Yeah. RSV is to us, it's a common cold, but to infants, it is, it can be deadly. I've actually taken care of quite a few kids that we've had to emergently intubate because of RSV because their lungs just get so, so, so sick. It's even like the flu. Um, you mentioned that this week your kiddos were sick and they were throwing up and you know having a tummy bug. Um, getting so dehydrated can actually put a kid into a cardiac arrest because they don't have the volume to pump the heart, right? And so it's they go into a hypovolemic shock, which is like a low volume, they go into shock and their heart stops. I've seen that happen. Um, or they throw up so much and parents don't understand what to look for. Um, their electrolytes get off and their heart stops because their electrolytes are out of whack because they're so dehydrated. So it's not what you think. Um and I think to toot my own horn and to give myself a little bit of praise, I genuinely feel like I educate in such a way that is so easy to digest and understand. And instead of making it a fear-based education, I'm empowering you to know what to look for. Um and so I think that's kind of what sets me apart in my courses is I really teach you what to look for so that when you're in the moment, you're like, wait, I know what she said. She said this, this, this, this. Um, and so you feel more empowered to feel like confident caring for your baby when they're sick.

Gagging Versus Choking And What Not To Do

SPEAKER_02 18:25

Yeah, and it's not like now becoming fearful of like the smallest little cold escalating into something. It's more of like, okay, I know the signs of what is a normal, totally, normal cold, and then I know the signs now off of what's something more concerning. Totally. Yeah, I feel it's it's funny because initially when you were saying, like, oh, when you're the throat, the throwing up and the dehydration, that can go to cardiac rest. At first, my mind is like, oh my gosh, wait, no, that's terrifying. Should I have cared more about the hydration or this or that? But then it's again like knowledge is power. It builds confidence where me taking that course, I already feel like decently equipped for that, but me taking that course, I wouldn't let myself go to that level. No, I would feel yeah so much better about these situations, like, oh, she's good. I've hydrated her, I have a checklist. Yeah, I'm good, and if anything else pops up, like I know what to do. Exactly. Yeah. So I wanna I wanna focus on choking. Sure. Because from my understanding, would you handle a situation differently with a baby versus a child versus an adult? Totally. So maybe walk us through those and then walk us through the differences between choking, gagging, or anything else. Like what's what should we allow to play out and not panic over? And then when do we need to intervene? Yeah, totally.

SPEAKER_00 19:47

So um gagging, I mentioned earlier, is different than choking, and gagging is actually a reflex that babies are born with. So I don't know if you knew this, but when babies come out of the womb, they are created to eat actually. Like that's why um that's just how they were created. They have a gag reflex that helps protect their airway. And so the the point of our gag reflex is that in the events an object or a piece of food or fluid is trying to go into our airway that would then go into our lungs, our gag reflex is there to actually protect that object or liquid or whatever from going into the lungs. Um, and so babies are born to gag to protect their airway, right? Um, and so know that your child is born to eat. And so when six-ish months rolls around and you start solids, they are gonna gag. Like I always tell families I actually love babies that gag because I know that kid knows how to save their own life. Parents often think gagging is it's like a panic, right? And so you tend to kind of freak out a little bit because you think that that kid's not getting air, but choking is like drowning, it's dead silent. There is no sound that can come out of a baby or or a child or an adult's mouth when they are choking. And so when a kid's gagging, they're actually still able to breathe. Um, their airway is not occluded, it's just that reflex pushing that food out to avoid it going into the wrong pipe. Um, and so you want to hear the sounds. The sound should be a relief. Yeah, sound is good. No sound is alarming. Yeah. So I always tell families if a kid is gagging, try to encourage it. You don't need to do anything. Their body knows how to do it itself because it's a reflex, right? It does it automatically. Um, and so when a kid's gagging, I always tell families just keep an eye on them, be like, hey, Johnny, you're doing so good right now, buddy. I'm so proud of you, how you're eating right now. Like, don't make it a panic thing because the minute kids like feed off us, right? I mean, I'm sure you know, like when you're stressed and anxious, your kids are like driving you even more nuts because they're just vibing off you, right? So if you're sitting down and eating with your kid and they start to gag, if you panic, they're gonna panic right back. And then that's when it goes down. Or the typical pat on the back, all you're doing is pushing that object. Deeper down. So avoid finger sweeping. Like old school was like finger sweep and check for something in the mouth. Like, do not finger sweep. Don't put your finger in their mouth because the minute you do that, you can just push it back deeper. Avoid any pats on the back because all you're doing, if they're sitting upright and you're patting their back, that object is just getting lodged deeper down. Um, and then try to avoid panicking and stay calm. Um, sometimes they do like look a little panicked. That's okay. Hey, buddy, I'm right here. I'm not gonna leave your side. You got this. Like, I know you're capable of eating, and just truly encourage them. And then in the event that gagging, obviously, if they don't for whatever reason, maybe the object is further back than they're able to clear and they do choke. My daughter choked when she was 18. So, or 18 months, excuse me. So I know what it looks like when it turns into choking. Suddenly, they she started to turn blue around her mouth and there was no sound. She wasn't coughing, she wasn't gagging, it was just like there's no sound coming out of your mouth.

SPEAKER_02 22:55

What was she choking on?

SPEAKER_00 22:56

Like a piece of chicken. Always meat. Yeah, like the most common things for choking um in young kids are anything circular, obviously, that can occlude the airway. So, especially when they're younger, foods like blueberries or whole grapes, olives. Um, I have three kids, so my baby has, you know, the big kids leave the stuff all over the floor. And so it's things like marbles or Legos or um water bottle caps at like parties is pretty gnarly. I have actually sadly taken care of kids that have gone into an arrest secondary to bouncy balls. Um, I have taken care of kids that have gone into arrest because of popcorn. So popcorn under the age of four is not advised. Um, but things like that that can just like occlude the airway. Um, and so it's really important, especially as you have bring this baby into the world. Teach your kids like I like we've talked about knowledge is power. Teach your kids like, hey, the baby, um, this isn't safe for baby, so let's, you know, protect baby and like teach them because your kids are gonna blow you away by how intuitive they are with this little peanut, right? But like teaching your older kids how to protect the baby, I think is so crucial. Um, so those like common gagging things or excuse me, common choking things. Um walk us through the scenario. Okay.

Infant Choking Steps Back Blows

SPEAKER_02 24:17

Just say worst case happens and your baby is sitting there blue, silent, with something lodged in their throat. What is the first thing you tell parents to do?

SPEAKER_00 24:28

If you have your phone, call 911 because choking can turn into um a medical emergency where we'd have to perform CPR. But what you're not gonna do is delay intervening in your baby to go get your phone and call 911. So, first thing I would do if I have my phone on me, great, pull it out, put it on speaker, call 911. Um, but then I would take my baby out of the high chair. Um, and I always tell families that um you're gonna do five back blows and five chest thrusts on infants, so under 12 months of age. But really, I teach, so I teach textbook, like what the governing bodies teach us, but then I teach you real life applications. So, in my situation when my daughter was 18 months and she choked, I pulled her out of her high chair, I put her face down, so on her belly, on my leg, and I administered five back blows in between her shoulder blades, and then I turned her, flipped her face up. I looked to see if I saw the object. If I didn't see it, I administered five chest thrusts. And actually, thank God, um, after the second set of back blows, the object shot out of her mouth.

SPEAKER_02 25:27

Um but and chest chest uh chest thrusts thrusts, is that like when you're are you pushing on the chest? Yeah, so you're kind of pushing what scenario. I guess we'll we'll do demos after for anyone listening or watching. We will do them, but just to talk through it first. Sure. What are the chest thrusts, like what position are they?

SPEAKER_00 25:46

Are they still on your lap? Yeah, so I always say in a perfect situation, you would be sitting down. Now, obviously, when medical emergencies happen, the world is not perfect, and we're not like perfectly in a situation that it it plays out how you would hope all the time. But if you can take a seat, sit down. The reason is is you can use your legs as weight, like to help the body, the baby's body weight. So you would take your baby. Um, I always tell families I put the baby face down in the palm of my hand, so I'm supporting the weight of their head with my palm. Um, and then I put their body like on my forearm and I use the the my legs as like support for their weight. So keeping their head face down below the level of their hip. So they're kind of at like an angle for gravity. You're gonna give five hard back blows. Now, I've taken care of kids in the hospital that have come in after they've choked and they come in fully bruised from how hard you're actually hitting their back. So it's way harder than you think. And that's okay. Totally, because we're trying to save their life, right? So any harm or like you bruise them or you injure them, like we can fix that when they come in. Don't let that fear you because at the end of the day, you're trying to really push this object out, right? Um, and so you give five firm back blows um right in between where their shoulder blades are. And then you're gonna take them. I always say sandwich them. So the baby's head is here. I'm gonna sandwich with my other hand, turn and flip the baby. So now they're face up. Look over the baby. If you see the object, you can grab it, but we're not digging in there, we're not trying to fish it out with our finger, keeping their head still below the level of the hips for gravity. We're then gonna administer five chest thrusts. So in the same place that you'd perform CPR, but instead of pushing straight down like CPR, you're kind of pushing forward and down. Um, again, you're just trying to hit that object from the back and from the front. And you continue five and five until the object either dislodges or God forbid the baby goes limp and unresponsive. You'd bring them down to the ground and begin CPR.

SPEAKER_02 27:40

So when they're on their back and you're doing the chest thrusts, it's not gonna lodge in there more, right? It's it seems almost counterintuitive because they're upside down where the throat kind of seems this way, but it'll still bring it up.

SPEAKER_00 27:53

Yeah, because you're keeping their head below the level of the hips. So they're they're at they're at an angle down. Um, and basically you're trying, you're just trying to create enough intrathoracic pressure or pressure in their chest cavity that like pushes the object up and out. Um, but honestly, usually if you do hard enough back blows, you can usually get the object out before you have to do the chest thrust.

SPEAKER_02 28:15

Yeah. Oh, I know it's a little heavy. It's heavy to talk about, but at the same time, it's like we can do hard things and we have to have these conversations. Um, because how else are we gonna learn? Yeah. And I'd rather feel uncomfortable now than feeling uncomfortable in that moment.

SPEAKER_00 28:30

Totally. And I think too, like to give people who are listening credit, like I think we're so hard on hard on ourselves as moms, and we have this like instinctual, like, I'm never doing enough, and I'm not gonna be good enough, and I'm not gonna be prepared enough. And what I will say is like, obviously, I think every family needs CPR and choking courses. Um, if it's not through me, please like go to your local, I don't know, fire station, find your closest resource, right? Um, but I genuinely also think that as parents, we have such an intuition on what to do in an emergency. So I again try to avoid that fear-based, like, oh my gosh, I'm not gonna know and I don't know what I'm doing. I have heard of stories of kids saving their siblings' lives because they watched the sand lot. And when I don't know if you remember the scene where the kid was drowning and they pulled him out and they started CPR, and like the kid knew how to do CPR because they watched the sandlot. So even as scary and overwhelming and anxiety-ridden as it might seem or feel, to be like, oh my gosh, I'm not gonna know what to do. Like, I promise you, as parents, like we that's our heart beating outside of our body. Like we are more than capable of intervening in an emergency. And so I hope that you feel empowered and equipped to actually know that you would know how to handle it. And adrenaline takes in and it's scary and it's overwhelming, but like you are so much more capable, I think, than we give ourselves credit for.

Dechoker Devices Pros And Risks

SPEAKER_02 29:56

It's so true. In the moment, like, I think it's a healthy blend of both, right? Like having experience and knowledge and education of that, but that meshed with our intuition as a mother or a father or you know, a parent, I feel like is so much stronger because you will do anything for your child in that moment. But I also do think it is important to also know what not to do. Totally. You know, sticking your fingers in the throat or this or that, like that might make it worse where you think you're doing better. Yeah. Um, but no, I love, I do so much through my intuition. Like when I don't know the answers, I'm like, okay, what feels right? Where what am I gravitating towards? And knock on wood, it's it hasn't really led me astray so far. And yeah, so I I love I love that message of kind of not panicking if you don't feel like you know a hundred percent everything. Yeah, that we can use our intuition to guide us as parents in anything that we do as well. Totally. Yeah. Um to end to to kind of round out this the choking conversation in a choking scenario, are there any big mistakes besides trying to use fingers to get something out that parents should stay away from at the very beginning of like, okay, one you already said is not going to run to find your phone because you're wasting time. If it's next to you, call 911. Yeah. Is there anything else?

SPEAKER_00 31:23

Um, so a hot topic that gets brought up in my course all the time is like dechokers or the life act. I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 31:30

I have one here, so I'd love your hot take on it.

SPEAKER_00 31:32

Yeah, sure. So um, first of all, have you messed with it? You have one.

SPEAKER_02 31:37

No, that's the terrifying thing. It's like we We buy it, we buy it in out of fear, fear mongering with those videos. 100% we get served. Yep. And they're expensive. Yeah. I bought one or two. Of course. And then even Scotty and I sometimes would be like, where the heck is that damn thing?

SPEAKER_00 31:54

You are like, well, that's not gonna, that's not gonna help us. Yeah, you're the textbook person that I'm speaking to right now. So um, and this is not a bash on these brands because I think we're all just doing our best, and I think there's great medical devices out there that are truly trying to like make a difference. So this is not a bash on them at all. Um, if you guys are listening, this is not against you, okay? Um, but what I always tell my families is exactly what you're explaining. So you buy it because you watch an ad and you're like, oh my gosh, I'm scared and I need this because this is my worst nightmare. Awesome. It comes to your door, and where do you put it? I don't know, in a cabinet somewhere. You don't take it out, you don't know where it is, and you don't know how to use it. So then a medical emergency happens, and instead of intervening in the moment to your child, you're thought you're stuck on, okay, wait, where is that thing? Okay, now I'm gonna look at the thing and I'm gonna open the thing and I'm gonna try to figure it out. And at the end of the day, like I'll be honest, I did not know how to use my air fryer for like 10 or 20 times. Like my Instapot, I it was useless, like the first year, right? Like you're trying to figure out how to use something. Um, in a medical emergency, you don't have time to mess around and try to figure out how something works. And so what I always tell families is what are what are the two things that never leave your side? Your hands and the knowledge I'm equipping you with, right? You will carry your hands and your brain with you everywhere you go. So if you feel confident in the skills that I teach you, you have no need for another device. Um, and the heimlick maneuver and choking maneuvers really hasn't changed in decades. Like there's been minor things. Oh, do five or you know, do six or whatever. Like there's been little changes here and there, like bend forward at the waist and give back blows, or just do the hymn. Like there's been little changes, but overall, the gist of choking maneuvers has not changed in decades. And so um I think that these devices are great to have in, and at least the stories that I've heard them being effective is um and the videos that I've seen on like social media is always like the person didn't know what to do actually. They weren't intervening correctly. Someone else happened to have the device in their car or in the kitchen cabinet or wherever. And so they were able to use it and save the person. But I genuinely think that if that person would have received the Heimlich appropriately, or the child that was choking on the food would have gotten the back blows and the chest thrusts within a timely manner appropriately, there actually would have never been a need for the extra device. And so what I say to families who want them and have them just because it gives you peace of mind, just having the thing in your home, is like, do you have one in your car? Do you have one in your bathroom? Do you have one in your living room and in your kitchen, in your dining room? Because kids choke when you least expect it. It's not like this perfect curated, we're at the kitchen counter and it was like grape that it perfectly occluded the airway. No, it's like the G.I. Joe that you forgot was at the bottom of the bathroom, you know, floor, and little Johnny ran upstairs and grabbed it and put it in his mouth. Like those are the times kids choke. It's not always just at the dinner table. And so if you have these devices, um, A, open the box and learn that there's different mass sizes, understand how they work, read the directions. Because again, I go back to my my principle of I want to empower you, right? And so you will feel more confident using this device if you actually know how to use it before you need it, versus needing it and being like, I don't know how to do this. Um, and so that's kind of my take on it.

SPEAKER_02 35:20

I'm not I love that.

SPEAKER_00 35:21

Yeah, I'm not like anti or I don't shame people who have them, but I'm like, you carry your hands in your brain everywhere you go.

SPEAKER_02 35:27

It shouldn't be your first form of protect uh of uh protection or preventiveness. Prevention, yes, that's the word I was looking for. Like you should have the knowledge first, and then that could always be secondary to for some reason option one's not working. Yeah, absolutely. But you're right, because isn't it true? Kids choke more often when they're just on the go snacking than just sitting still at a dinner table.

SPEAKER_00 35:49

Yeah, because we're like paying attention to that. I that's that that's like mainly my experience. Like, yes, my daughter choked. Um, we were eating like chicken or something, but I think honestly, when she choked, it was when I had had, so I had just had my second and they're 17 and a half months apart. Um, and so she was eating, she was like two and a half, and my baby was one at the time. This was a few years ago, and it was like um I was busy with the baby while she was eating, and I was right there with her, but I was paying attention to her younger brother, and so it wasn't like it was this expected thing. I think I was changing his diaper, to be honest. So I had like walked just across like our dining table, and our living room is like right next to each other. And so he was she was sitting in her high chair at the dining table. I had walked over to change the baby on the f on our little playmat um in the living room. I still had perfect visual of her, but like I had just quickly walked away for a second, you know, and then she's so common.

SPEAKER_02 36:42

That's such a common scenario when you have all the time. When you're a mom of multiples, all the time. Like you're spread thin. You're spread thin and you're constant, we're constantly multitasking. Yeah. And there is no way one person can have eyeballs on two, three kids at one time at any instance. It's impossible. Yeah. So like those are those like unfortunate, but like such common where like we're not being negligent parents. Oh, it just happens at the at times you wouldn't expect. You think you're, you know, okay, I fed this one. We're check, check, check mark here. Okay, now this one needs a diaper change, and it's it's a lot.

SPEAKER_00 37:21

Exactly. Yeah, it definitely, I think in general, emergencies happen when you least expect them, right? And so that goes back to my whole concept of like, I'd rather you feel equipped and prepared to handle these things than panicked and like shocked, right? If I I also think like knowing having heard the knowledge before it happens, when it's happening in real time, it makes it a lot more like digestible that you can like like chill for a second and like get your thoughts together versus being like this panic, you know, shooken up mom. I think it helps you to lead with more calmness um and confidence. And I think it's huge.

SPEAKER_02 37:59

Yeah, it's true. I always joke about how I just naturally make experiences 10 times or like emergencies 10 times worse. Like perfect. I feel like I'm like the panic one, or like if something happens with the kid, I'm like, oh my gosh, oh my god. And Scotty's like, chill the heck out. Yes, take a breath, and he's like in in the zone. Yeah, yeah. Um I love that. But I was surprising. We had just moved into this house and it was our first weekend, and we were 30 seconds from bedtime. And Bash ran out because he was like, you know, being silly, didn't want to get in his sleep sack, and Aswen was being the bigger sister, and I was like, Aswin, can you go grab your brother? Like, grab his hand and walk him back in here. And I come out because I just hear him giggling. I'm like, hey, this isn't gonna work.

SPEAKER_01 38:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 38:44

And I just hear her silently running, going like this, holding her chin. I'm like, look, what is that? And she just takes her hand, blood everywhere. Oh no. She they must have been just chasing each other, and she innocently slipped and cracked her chin open.

SPEAKER_00 38:58

Oh no.

SPEAKER_02 38:58

And it was one of those things, like I have never experienced that before. Oh no. And I looked, I took one look at it and I was like, hospital. Yeah. And for some reason, I was so proud of myself. Like, I kicked into like mom mode, just focus. I was so calm. I turned around and I said, Detta, we're gonna go on a on a ride to the hospital. Can you grab Bashi's sleep? Because it was bedtime now. And I'm like, of course, we have no family around because everyone's out of town. Oh my god. It's now past 7 p.m. Yeah, it's pitch black out because it's like winter. Yes, yes. And so I'm like, bring a bottle, bring if there's a portable sound machine, bring everything for Bashi, and I'm gonna grab pajamas and her like cuddly, like everything that makes her feel safe, and maybe some snacks. And I was just, and I was like, you do this, you do this, ordering around, and we got in the car, and for once in my life, I've handled it how I would want it to be handled.

SPEAKER_00 39:53

Where like usually I'm like, ah but that's like your intuition kicking in, and like I'm telling you as a mom, we are equipped for this stuff. Like you are so much harder on yourself than I think all moms. We are so much harder on ourselves than we should be. And we need to give ourselves more credit because we are incredible for all that we do, right? But like in that moment, you were like, okay, like my job is to take care of my baby and calm the situation, scare her nerve, freak her out, and traumatize her because you're reacting. Like, so you knew in that moment it was like in you. It's in you.

SPEAKER_02 40:29

It's in, yeah, it's in all of us. And it was one of those moments that made me just really proud of myself, which I feel like I don't do enough. I'm not, I always am like, am I a good enough mom? Would I know how to handle the situation? And I was just really like, wow, like we all have it in us in the time of need. And and then, well, and then when she was getting stitched up, I because we didn't have dinner, and I would just watching your child scream bloody murder and their faces covered with the everything and the the needles, and and I usually have like a really like like a stomach of steel, like nothing really gets to me.

SPEAKER_01 41:05

That's awesome.

SPEAKER_02 41:05

All of a sudden I started, I broke out in sweat. Oh the room started spinning, and I'm like on my hands and knees. I'm on my hands and knees. And no. She's like, mommy, mommy, I'm like, I'm right here, I'm right here. And I'm like hold trying to hold her. The nurse is like, You okay, Mama? I'm like, uh-huh. She gets me like one of the trash bags, and I'm just dry heaving. I'm having a full panic attack.

unknown 41:25

Oh.

SPEAKER_02 41:25

But I'm like, I was in my head, like I was okay. Like my my mind was okay, but my body was just elsewhere. It was so it was like we were disconnected where my body was having a full panic.

SPEAKER_00 41:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 41:37

But my mind was like, What snap out of this? What are you doing? Like you'd be there for your daughter.

SPEAKER_00 41:41

It's honestly so common. I cannot tell you how many times we take care of parents that pass out in their kids' rooms. I actually, because of my job, I like I said, I work in vascular access. And so um I poke kids for a living. This is what I do for 12 hours. I put IVs in, I put catheters in, we put central lines in, and it's all I do. Um, and not everyone loves needles and not everyone loves blood, and that's like all I deal with for 12 hours. And I cannot tell you how many times parents will pass out when I'm like mid-poke because you think you got it and you want to be their strength and you wanna like support them and talk them through it. But I'm always like, if you're not taking care of yourself, like we're gonna have two patients here and we don't need that. So I always, before I start, are you comfortable with needles and are you comfortable with your kids screaming? Or if you are not, it's okay to step outside.

SPEAKER_02 42:27

And sometimes you don't know, like you have no idea, but then you can't plan it. And like it's just it's what are like us, especially as moms, like we have that um chemical whatever, like when our babies cry, like every like I see I sweat, I see red, I can't handle it. It's like nails on a chalkboard.

SPEAKER_00 42:46

I totally know that feeling.

CPR Basics Safety 911 Good Samaritan

SPEAKER_02 42:47

And so in that moment, I was like, I'm cool, I you know, I've I've I'm totally fine. And then all of a sudden I'm like, I'm not good. I'm really not good. And you like you feel so bad because you want to be their strength, but then also as parents, like there is nothing worse in the world than seeing your child in pain and you feeling like you can't do anything do anything to help, and you're just there, you're useless, you feel helpless, yeah, is the feeling. So, anyways, we're getting a little off topic, but I feel like that was a good conversation to have. Really quickly, because I want to move on to choking, but you talked about how to give how to help um an infant. An infant.

SPEAKER_00 43:24

How what about like a 10, 12-year-old child? Great question. So um, so I always, like I mentioned earlier, textbook, right, says infancy is zero to 12 months of age, but you can actually do the back blows and the chest thrust as long as you can physically still hold your child like that. So um, going back to infants, and then I'll talk about kids. When my daughter was 18 months, even though textbook says to only do it until they're 12 months of age, I did the back blows and the chest thrust, and she was 18 months because I could physically carry her on my legs and use my legs to support the weight. Um, so I always teach families if It's instinctual to you to like put the baby or put your, you know, young toddler face down and give back blows, and you can physically hold them like that. I say it's appropriate to do that. Um, textbook says children are or um the pediatric choking maneuvers are age one to adolescence, um, which like a one-year-old is a vastly different size than like let's say a 10-year-old, right? Like that's significantly different. Um, my baby is now almost 13 months, and if he choked, I would do back blows and chest thrusts just for like context. Um, my five and six-year-old, if I tried to put them upside down, they'd go head first into the floor, right? And so what you're actually gonna do is you're gonna get on your knees. Um, I always tell my families to make a number four with their dominant hand and then cup your fingers around your thumb, find their belly button. So the navel is the, and you know what? While you're here, we should talk about choking on pregnant women too, just because like this is a thing. Okay, we'll talk about it after. Um, but you're gonna find their navel or their belly button, and you just go slightly above that belly button. You're gonna cup around them. So you're on your knees because they're shorter. So you'd be on your knees, make a four, cup your hands around your thumb, belly button, opposite hand around, and then you're gonna do a J or like a hook-like motion in and up to dislodge that object. Um, and so you'd be on your knees just because they're shorter, right? But like you're pretty petite. So, like as your kids grow and they get tall, like just because it's a child or a pediatric doesn't mean you have to do it on your knees. Yeah, exactly. But like the point is, is just like you don't get stand behind them because they're just so much shorter than you, right? Um, and then adults is the same thing. Um, you would basically reach your arms around them, make a number four, wrap your hands around your thumb, find their belly button, wrap your hands around them, and then do the same thing, but now you're standing. Um, and in 2025, actually, governing bodies added in five back blows with five hemlicks. So the Himlik, like I mentioned, is that J or that hook-like motion. So you would do that five times and then you'd stand up next to them, lean them forward over your arm, and then give five back blows. Um, I don't know how I feel about that because the bigger the person is, like, I don't know that I would feel comfortable like holding their weight over my form if God forbid they end up passing out, they're going head first. So take that as you will. That's like the new guidelines. But I just teach my family to do what you feel comfortable doing. The Himlik hasn't changed in decades, and so it works.

SPEAKER_02 46:27

And is there an amount of Himlicks you do in a row before taking a break for a second, or is it literally over and over and over again until you try to get that thing unlodged?

SPEAKER_00 46:37

Yeah, great question. You're doing it over and over again until the object either dislodges or the person goes limp and unresponsive and they truly become dead weight, and then you just lower them to down to the ground and you begin CPR.

SPEAKER_02 46:48

So you CPR, this is such a stupid question, but just for my own brain too, I always thought like you can do CPR when the thing is still stuck.

SPEAKER_00 46:56

Yeah, such a common question. Yeah. So um CPR when there's an object occluded in the airway, um, you can still go mouth to mouth and give breaths, but what you may not see is normal chest rise and fall because obviously there's an object occluding their airway. Um basically when you're giving breath with an occlusion in an airway, um, the way our airway is made up is like we have like our main airway right in the middle of essentially our sternum, and then it splits into the right and left side of our lungs. And so if an object is occluding the main airway, every time you give a breath, like imagine it's like a windpipe, it's a perfect like little circle, right? And so if there's something occluding in that circle, you're hoping that as you give positive pressure, giving a breath into the airway, that there's like a little sliver of air that can pass through this like occlusion. Or essentially what you're doing is you're kind of pushing that object a little bit deeper and then it's choosing to go right or left side of the lungs. Um, but you when you give breaths, you're not like blowing out birthday candles. Like it's not like this super aggressive, forceful breath of air. You're just giving enough to see wise rise and fall of the chest. And if you don't witness that when you're doing CPR, don't stress the breaths. You can save somebody by just doing compressions alone, actually. So mouth to mouth is something that, especially during COVID times, um governing bodies kind of realize that the most, the single most important thing about performing CPR is actually doing the compressions. It used to be um ABCs, like if you took a CPR class, like in high school, it was like airway, breathing, circulation, right? And so always the first step was checking the airway and giving breaths. But now they've actually changed it that you're gonna begin CPR with compressions. Breaths come later because the most important thing you can do is getting your hands on the chest to pump that heart to oxygenate the vital organs. So don't stress giving breaths when somebody is choking. If you don't see that you're giving effective breaths, don't let that stop you from continuing.

SPEAKER_02 48:56

That makes sense. Wow. Gosh, that's so that's so fascinating. I it's interesting to hear how like over time it'll the techniques like the technique is the same, but they evolve and switch things up. Yeah. Um, okay, well, let's dive headfirst into CPR. Let's do it. Can you walk us through CPR basics that everyone should know?

SPEAKER_00 49:15

Yeah. So um, first of all, like this is kind of how I always start my class is so you know CPR, but do you know what CPR stands for?

SPEAKER_02 49:27

Oh my gosh, no.

SPEAKER_00 49:29

Okay. So this is why I think it's so crucial to understand.

SPEAKER_02 49:33

Depression. Uh that no, that's that's it. See, that's the thing. When you're put on the spot, I'm like, I have no idea. I learned it at some point.

SPEAKER_00 49:42

It's okay. Um, so CPR stands for cardiopulmonary resuscitation. Okay. So cardio is your heart, your heart is your body's pumper. Pulmonary is the lungs, your lungs are your body's oxygenators. And together, um, they work to resuscitate or bring somebody back to life. So when you are you and I are sitting here talking, um, our hearts and our lungs are working without having to think about it. I don't have to think like, okay, Shayna, beat your heart, right? Breathe, right? It's just happening when I need oxygen. I take a breath and my heart is pumping just automatically. So when someone goes down in a cardiac or a pulmonary arrest, so cardiopulmonary, um, it's either their heart stops cardiac arrest or their lungs stop pulmonary arrest. And then secondarily, the opposite will stop because our hearts are dependent on our lungs and our lungs are dependent on our heart, right? And so they go together. So I think having a basic understanding of like anatomy and physiology makes you realize how important it is to perform effective chest compressions. Now, what I always tell families when it comes to doing CPR is seen safety is everything. You have to be able to be safe yourself in order to save somebody else's life. So it's not the expectation that just because you've taken a CPR class, you're now like the neighborhood hero. Like if you walk over and you see someone slumped over on the side of the road that you've never met before and you don't know who they are or why they're down or what's going on, like it is not the expectation that just because you know CPR, you feel like I'm gonna just be the hero and go help and save everybody. Make sure that your life and if you're with your kids, your kids' lives are never on the line so that you can go and try to help somebody else, right? I think calling 911 and getting EMS in route, um, even if you don't feel confident like intervening or helping somebody is crucial. Um, it can just doing that alone is help, like is helping the person. Um, and then also in the event that you do feel comfortable going and helping somebody do CPR, just know that you're protected with the Good Samaritan law. Like if you are doing things with good intent and a pure heart, nobody's gonna come after you because you accidentally broke somebody's rib or you accidentally, I don't know, like punctured a lung. Like you are doing things with pure intent to help this person that you thought needed help in the moment. And so know that like doing something is better than just doing nothing. Um, and so whether it's calling 911, that's still doing something, or if you do feel confident helping the person, um, but just knowing and making sure that you're never putting your life on the line in order to do so.

SPEAKER_02 52:07

That's so important. I actually didn't know about that good Samaritan law. That's really important. Yeah. Um so if someone, another scenario, just say like someone gets put in the situation, maybe they've known CPR and now they're leaning over someone and they panic and they don't know what to do all of a sudden. Yeah. And what without doing things perfectly, like what is something that they can do in that moment to help a situation? Is there anything?

SPEAKER_00 52:35

I mean, calling 911, like I said, is that alone is helpful. Just having first responders in route. Um, and then what I always tell families too is like when you call 911 and you put dispatch on speaker, um, they will walk you through it. So just remember you have a second brain on the phone who's gonna be able to help you. Um so don't feel like when God forbid something happens, you're a medical emergency, and like you said, you like try to help somebody and then you like black out and don't know what to do. They will literally walk you through what to do. I have a story actually of um a man a neighbor of mine when his daughter was 18 months old. She got her first febrile seizure. Have you ever heard of that? Yes. Yes, have you experienced it?

Febrile Seizures And Fever Myths

SPEAKER_02 53:17

No, thank God. But that is one of the scariest for me. Like whenever my kids get fevers, that's what I get terrified of. Yeah. Do you want to quickly explain like when you could be that could be a possibility when kids get fevers? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 53:30

So febrile seizures is something that happens. It's actually a seizure that occurs secondary to a fever. So febrile is the same thing as a fever. Um, it's one of the topics I cover pretty um in depth in my course because I see it in the ER all the time. Um, but what I always tell families about fevers is I always say, treat your child, not a number. Um, there's not a specific number that's gonna guarantee that a kid's gonna seize. Like kids can have februal seizures at 101, they can have them at 106. It's not about a number, it's actually about how rapidly the body goes from normothermic or normal body temperature to hyperthermic or high body temperature. So it's not like just because your kid has a 104 fever, they're gonna have a seizure. That is a very miss, like it's a false um it's a miscon misconception.

SPEAKER_02 54:20

Um, once you hit 104, it's a possibility.

SPEAKER_00 54:26

Yeah. I didn't okay. I mean, of course, like the higher the temperature is, like the more dangerous it is. And it's not necessarily for just a seizure precaution or seizure reason. It's because these kids are getting very dehydrated very rapidly. And that is the emergency, is the dehydration, actually. Um, so just because a kid has a 104 or a 105 fever doesn't necessarily mean like, oop, they're guaranteed to have a seizure. It has nothing to do with the number and everything to do with how rapidly that body rose. Um, and so that's oftentimes parents don't know that. But um, back to my story. So my neighbor um had come over, this was probably like two, maybe like three years ago. And his daughter at the time was 18 months old. Um, and she had just started getting like little cold symptoms, like literally was totally fine, went to school all day, was or preschool um all day. And around like six o'clock, seven o'clock at night, they were watching a show. And all of a sudden she went stiff in his arms and started seizing. And instead of calling 911, he ran her to my front porch because he knew that I'm a nurse and my husband's in law enforcement. So he's like, This is, I guess, the neighborhood hospital. I don't know what he was thinking, but whatever. Um, he runs his daughter to my house. He's pounding on the door yelling for help. And so being a nurse and my husband's in law enforcement, I'm like, babe, this sounds like a you problem. Like when people are pounding at my door at seven o'clock at night and it's dark outside yelling for help. This does not sound like it's a nurse response. This sounds like it's a law enforcement response. I'm like, so go handle it. He peeped out our window and realized it was a neighbor and he had his daughter, who was lifeless in his arms, at the front porch. And he's like, babe, I actually think this is a you problem. I'm just kidding. Yeah, just hitting, babe. Talk about a power couple. Oh, you're so sweet. But yeah, so long story short, my husband's like, babe, I think we need you. And I was like, Oh my gosh. So long story short, he opened the door and I looked at, and you know, this dad is sweating, he's panicked, he can barely even explain what's happening. So the first thing I do is I tell my husband, like, get the dog away and send the kids upstairs and call 911 because I didn't know what was happening. Um, but then once I grabbed her out of his arms, I brought her into our living room on like we have a little padded play playmat. I put her in a place where she was A, on a hard surface. God forbid I needed to perform compressions. You always want to do it on a hard surface. But B, so that she was away from anything that could hurt her. So if she seized and flailed her arms or moved her body, she wasn't gonna like hit into the corner of something that could like hurt her, right? So I brought her down to the ground. I assessed her, I looked for breathing. She was still breathing. She wasn't really conscious because she was having a seizure, but she was breathing. Her chest was rising and falling, she was moving air. Um, she was not with it neurologically. Like she was literally in the middle of seizure. So her arms were moving, her legs were stiff, um, her neck was like turned and she was like, you know, twitching. Um, the dad is freaking out. He's screaming, yelling, wake up, wake up. You know, it's like the whole thing. And I just said, hey, listen, she's having, I think she's having a febrile seizure because I felt her and she was super hot. And I was like, okay, so I undressed her. Like I said, my husband had called 911. So dispatch is on the phone and I'm like, hey, I'm a pediatric nurse. This is what I'm seeing. This is what's going on. I'm seeing chest right. Like I'm explaining my assessment that I'm making just from my years of training from a head to the toes out loud so dispatch could hear what I was saying, and then they're radioing fire, right? So the firefighters come to my house at this point. It probably took them maybe 90 seconds to get to my house because our fire station's literally at the end of our street. It was so fast. Like, God bless OCFA because they're heroes. Um, but yeah, they came and I was like, I think she's having a febrile seizure. And they, and by the time they got there, she had already woken up. Um, she was definitely scared. She let out a solid scream. She was disoriented and confused because what her body just experienced was intense. Um, but she was totally fine. They transferred her to the hospital. They did some testing and discharged her a few hours later, and her dad took my course the next month because he was like, I was like, listen, you cannot be running your daughter to my house because it's an emergency. Like, you need to know what steps to take. Um, and so yeah, febrile seizures is a really common thing that happens. Um and question on that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 58:36

Are they considered safe or deadly? Like I I've I've heard people throw this around where it's a lot of people saying they're common, they happen, but yeah, don't freak out panicking because it's one of those seizures that it's not neurologic in nature.

SPEAKER_00 58:53

So just because your child, so febrile seizures are most common to start between 12 to 18 months of age. So that's usually when there's like an onset of them. That's when they begin. And then these kids usually will continue, unfortunately, to have fibrile seizures until they're about five or six, is when they grow out of them. These are not neurologic seizures in nature. So these are not the kids that are gonna have long-term epilepsy or neurologic deficits. It's just what happens, like I mentioned, because their body physiologically got so it it the temperature rose too quickly, and they're it's their body's rude way of like shutting down, restarting, and then coming back. Um, and so these are not kids that are gonna have like long-term deficits. Um, in recent years, there's been studies that show that there is some sort of a genetic like predisposition. So, like if you or your partner um or your spouse had febrile seizures as kids, those are parents that I say, like, hey, there's a higher likelihood that maybe your child would have febrile seizures. Um, and so you know, those parents are usually pretty quick to treat their kids whenever they have fevers. But unfortunately, even if you were to give your kid like a fever medic like uh Genexa or Motrin, um, something along those lines, like it's not gonna prevent it from happening because those meds take about 30 to 40 minutes to absorb into the bloodstream. So even if you like pre-medicate them when you think they're spiking a fever, it doesn't mean it's gonna prevent it because these seizures happen so quickly. Um, but to answer your question, no, normally there's no long-term issues. Yeah.

Where To Find The Course Discount

SPEAKER_02 1:00:18

Oh, I have so many questions for you. I could ask round two coming soon all day. We have to do a round two. We have to. Um, before we get into demos, yeah, just for anyone who is like, holy shit, I need all these courses. Yes, where can they find you? And should we give a little milk discount code?

SPEAKER_00 1:00:36

I would love to give a milk discount code for sure. Yeah. So if you're local to Orange County, I am still teaching in-home courses. Um, that is like the heart of my business. Um, there is something so special about being welcomed into a family's home and being trusted. Um, so if you're local to Orange County, you can still book me. Um, themedicalmamas.care is my website. Um, and you can just submit an inquiry form. And I usually me or someone from my team will respond to it to book. And I travel all the way from LA to San Diego too. So lots of options. Um, but if you're local to Southern California, you can book me in person. Otherwise, um, if you go to my website, themedicalmamas.care, the like homepage, you're gonna see a link to my digital course in which I cover all these things that we've talked about today and so much more. It's awesome because it's made out of like nine different modules that you get to pause and play and re-watch as needed when these things happen. Um, and so you can have access to that. And if you use code MILK when you purchase the course, I'm gonna drop it down from my normal price of 197 down to 127. So it's a huge discount. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:42

Thank you. Yeah. I feel like those are perfect for family reunion nights if you have like your grandparents or siblings and or whoever, and just put it on the big screen. Totally. Have maybe even have a glass of wine or something and like make it a fun event where you can do it all together.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:59

Yeah, I actually last week just taught an incredible group of eight moms. So I also I'm like, how many things do I do? I also offer this via Zoom. So if you're like, listen, Shana, I love having digital access to it. The nice thing, like I said about it is the reason I went digital is really because the feedback I got was like, where are you at 2 a.m. when my kid spikes the fever? Right. I'm like rummaging through my medicine cabinet, trying to find the handout that you gave us. Like, I want to be able to watch you when I need you. And so that's why I launched digital, just so that parents can access me whenever they need it. Um, but if you're not local to Southern California, I also offer like one-on-one Zoom courses where you can, I say it's like you can have like a Galentine's night. And what happens last week is I had a group of eight moms that got their wine and their charcuterie boards, and I spent two and a half hours teaching them my full course via Zoom. And it was awesome because it's interactive, it's personal, it's intimate. And I think that, like I said, like the knowledge is so, so, so crucial. Obviously, going hands-on with mannequins is super important. And I'm not saying that this course replaces practicing with mannequins, but if you don't have access to a local CPR course and maybe you live in a rural area or somewhere that you you can't just like go anywhere for this knowledge and education, like have watching it at least via a like a digital platform is still so much better than not doing anything. So absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:17

Oh, I'm so excited. That's such a good idea to get like a group of moms together. Almost like a book club, but yes, totally saving lives class.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:24

They say it's like a Tupperware party, but you're learning life-saving information. So I teach like uh so often in Costa Mesa, everyone like grabs sidecar donuts in the morning, they make their mimosas, they have it like a fun mom and dad morning out, and I come and it's just like it's so fun to be with families.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:38

So wait, I'm in, I'm organizing one of these called the moms in the neighborhood. That would be so fun. We're right there by sidecar every month.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:47

Let's be honest.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:48

I was there this morning.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:49

I'm going after.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:50

That's what someone else, someone else uh that came on the podcast the other day. She's like, I once I leave, I'm getting a treat from Coffee Dose.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:57

I'm like, that's Jenny is the owner, she's a girlfriend of mine. I love that place. It's amazing.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:01

And then your Instagram is at the dot medical.mamas, right? So and you post information on there. Everyone go follow your shame. Um I love your page. Thank you so much. You just you give us the most valuable gift of more confidence as parents and not like false confidence. It's it's confidence rooted in knowledge and understanding that we can take on all these little scary moments that can pop up when we least expect it. Yeah. So thank you so much for joining. Yeah. For anyone who is watching, we'll get into demos. I will also, if you're listening, I will post it almost as like a short on YouTube. I'll post it on our Instagram. Um, DM me if you can't find it. I will try to pop it up everywhere because everyone deserves and needs to see these little demos to help save lives. Yeah. So thank you. Let's get into it.

Live Demos Infant Choking And CPR

SPEAKER_00 1:04:54

Let's do some demos. Okay, so I'm gonna teach you guys what to do in the event that you have an infant that chokes on something. Um, so I am imagining that this little guy is anywhere from zero to 12 months of age. Um, and we're gonna perform what's known as back blows and chest thrusts. So I'm gonna walk through it with you. Um, so the first thing I say is I'm gonna take my non-dominant hand and I'm going to just cup it around the baby's face. And really, all I'm doing is supporting the weight of the baby's face head down. So, are you left hand dominant? Yeah. Okay, cool. Um, and then I always tell my families make sure their legs are straddling like your forearm bicep area. And then, like I said, you want to use your legs to support their weight. So keeping the head below the level of the hips, you're gonna take the heel of your dominant hand and right in between their shoulder blades, you're gonna give them five back blows. Now, I will warn you on the mannequins, it's like way harder than in rope. So don't be alarmed if you feel like you're like, oh my gosh, this hurt my hand. That's normal. Um, so we're gonna do five back blows and then we're gonna turn and flip and do five chest thrusts. So I'll walk you through it. So five, ready, set, go. So one, two, three, four, five sandwiches. The baby turn and flip opposite forearm. Keeping the head below the level of the hips, you're going to peek over. Do I see an object? Gone are the days of blind finger sweeping. So we're not going to like shove our finger in the mouth. If you see it, grab it. If you don't, use your opposite hand. Mid-nipple line, bottom half of the breastbone. You're going to kind of give forward and down chest thrust. So one, two, three, four, five, and then turn and flip. Five back lows. One, two, three, four, five. Turn and flip. Five chest thrusts. And then you're going to do this. Um, five and five until the object either dislodges or the baby goes limp and unresponsive, in which case you'd lower them down to the ground and begin CPR.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:38

Amazing.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:39

Clear as mud?

SPEAKER_02 1:06:40

Yes. Clear as mud.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:41

A little intimidating, but I think this one survived. I mean, he made it 100%. Yeah. You're ready. Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:48

Yeah, of course.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:48

That was so good. Okay. Should we do CPR? Yeah. Okay. So now I'm going to walk you guys through what to do in the event that your infant goes down and needs CPR. So again, zero to 12 months of age is kind of our baseline here. So the first things first is you always want to make sure anytime you're doing CPR that you're on a hard surface. So we cannot save babies' lives if they're in their crib, if they're on a changing pad. You don't want to do anything or perform compressions on anything that's plush. So this is perfect. You want a hard ground. And the reason is when you're doing compressions, you want to make sure that you're actually compressing the heart. So if there's something plush, it like gives, right? So first things first, before we do CPR, we're going to tap the bottom of this baby's feet. All we're doing is checking for responsiveness. So babies have those startle reflexes, right? And so we're seeing, is this baby showing any signs of life? From there, if the baby's not responsive, so they're not opening their eyes, they're not showing us that they're awake, we're then going to as quickly as we can expose the chest. So what I'm doing is I'm going to look at the chest and see for five seconds, but no longer than 10, is there rise and fall of the chest or are they taking a breath? If at this point they're unresponsive and they're not taking a breath, I'm then going to begin compressions. So when you took a CPR class, you might know as like the two-finger technique, right? So it's changed a little bit. It's now utilizing the heel of the dominant hand. So I'm going to take the heel of my dominant hand, mid-nipple line, bottom half of the breastbone, and I'm going to compress straight down. So the way we perform compressions is we're going to give 30 compressions to two breaths. If you are a single rescuer, you're by yourself. Things change if you have two or more rescuers. But since we're going to pretend that you're alone, we're just going to do 30 compressions and then we're going to go mouth to mouth and give two breaths. So it's going to look something like this. You put the heel of your dominant hand mid-nipple line, you're going to push down 30 times. Now, when it comes to CPR, there's three really important parts about it that I want you guys to understand. Number one is your rate. So how fast are we performing compressions? We're compressing at a rate of 100 to 120 compressions per minute. So it's pretty fast. Um, uh, uh, uh, uh, staying alive, that song. Um, it's that quick rate. The second most important thing in compressions is how deep are you going? So our heart is behind our sternum. It's a deep, it's a big um bony palate, right? Right, right in the middle of our chest. And so when we are performing compressions, we essentially have to get through that big bone to get to the heart. And so you're you're when you're pushing down and performing compressions, you are pushing kind of through that bony palate to get to the heart. So in an infant, you're going down about one-third the depth of the chest. Now, in all honesty, when emergencies happen, I don't have like a ruler in my back pocket ready to like measure that I'm doing this perfectly. So push fast, push deep. And then the third most important thing is something that's known as recoil. Now, recoil is basically in between each chest compression. So every time you push down, you're allowing the chest to come back to its normal resting position in between each compression. I like to use the analogy of like imagine you have a bucket of water and a sponge, and your heart is the sponge, and your bucket of water is your body full of blood, right? When you take your sponge and you put it in the bucket of water and you allow the sponge to fully absorb all the water, it's full to its max capacity. I'm gonna squeeze my sponge all the way and let all the water drip out of the sponge before I refill it and re-resoak it, right? And so when we are allowing the chest to recoil in between each compression, we're basically allowing that heart to get pressed or squeezed to its max capacity when we push down. And then when we recoil and allow the chest to come back to its normal resting position, it's like that sponge analogy where essentially allowing that heart to refill with oxygenated blood and then repump it. Does that make sense? It's a lot. No, it makes sense. Depth, recoil, three most important things. Okay, so we're gonna practice. So we're gonna do 30 times. So let's start from the beginning, just because it's better to practice in real life. So God forbid, let's say you walk into your baby's crib and they are blue. Okay, you're gonna take the baby out of the crib, put them on a hard surface, and then you're gonna tap the bottoms of the baby's feet. Baby, baby, are you awake? Are you awake? Baby's not responsive. I'm gonna expose the chest as quickly as I can, check for rise and fall of the chest. The baby's not taking a breath. I've looked for five seconds no longer than 10. I'm gonna take the heel of my dominant hand, push down 30 times. So I'll count us out. So one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten, eleven, twelve, thirteen, fourteen, fifteen, sixteen, seventeen, eighteen, nineteen, twenty, twenty one, twenty two, twenty-three, twenty four, twenty five, twenty six, twenty seven, twenty-eight, twenty nine, thirty. Then we're gonna perform a small head tilt, chin lift. You're gonna put your mouth around the nose and mouth, try to create a seal and give two breaths each over the course of one second. So go ahead and put your mouth around it. And they're quick breaths. It's just over the course of one second. In an infant, you're only giving the amount of air that you can hold in the pockets of your cheek. So and then you're done. So it's pretty quick, and then you go right back to 30 compressions.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:44

Cool. Honestly, that was easier than I expected. Like it's not uh there's not too technical. It's like you push, it's a little intuitive. It feels intuitive of like the recoil and everything.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:56

Yeah, and the cool thing about my mannequins is there's actually feedback devices. So obviously on the camera you can't see it, but in real life, like when I teach in classes, I turn them on so it's telling like it tells me whether or not I need to coach you to do it faster or or um deeper. And so it gives me a full feedback to know whether or not you're doing compression.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:14

So you get a score on it.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:15

100%.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:15

Wow, okay. Yes. Awesome. Well, that was so helpful. Thank you so much. Of course. I love it. These are so fun. I kind of want one just for the house for everyone who comes and like, can you pass this test before?

SPEAKER_00 1:12:28

My kids play with it. My son, I literally took a video of him like two days ago. He was fully doing CPR on a baby. I'm like, you would know how to save Parky's life, so thanks, buddy, for paying attention. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:36

Well, thank you guys so much for listening. Thank you, Shayna, for joining us today and giving us so much valuable information and knowledge. I personally feel so much more confident than I did coming and sitting down at the beginning of this to leaving. So I'm feeling good. I'm gonna get a mom group together. Everyone who's watching or listening, look up Shayna's courses and watch these demos. Save them wherever you're watching them. Yes, for sure. Thank you guys for another episode of the Milk. We'll see you next time.