Sash & Soul
Welcome to the "Fearlessly Authentic: Sash & Soul Podcast," the show that goes beyond the stage to prioritize mindset, wellbeing, and triumphs in the pageant journey. Each episode explores the power of embracing authenticity, sharing mindset tips, self-care strategies, and inspiring success stories to help you navigate the pageant world with confidence and resilience.
Sash & Soul
#29 Dating & Relationships as a Titleholder
In this episode we explore the oftentimes controversial topic of dating as a titleholder -- navigating a relationship during a year of changes, intense schedules, and outside opinions about your personal life. Why is dating while being a titleholder controversial? What’s up with the titleholder to marriage pipeline? Is there a no dating rule? What is it like from the partner's perspective?
From navigating public appearances with partners to addressing historical sexism in pageantry, we cover it all. Discover the evolving norms that now embrace engaged and married titleholders, and the crucial, often unseen support that partners provide. Learn about the importance of professionalism and etiquette, even as societal norms shift.
Stay tuned to the end for an impromptu cameo from Raeanna's husband, AJ, and Lila's fiancé, Logan. Hear about Logan's perspective during Lila's year as Miss Wisconsin and AJ's thoughts on learning about the pageant world.
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Socials: @sashandsoul | @fearlesslyauthenticcoach | @raeannajohnson
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Welcome to the Fearlessly Authentic Sash and Soul podcast, the show that goes beyond the stage, prioritizing a healthy mindset, overall well-being and triumphs in the pageant journey.
Speaker 2:In each episode, we dive into the transformative power of embracing authenticity fearlessly From mindset mastery and self-care strategies to success stories that inspire. This podcast is your go-to guide for navigating the pageant world with confidence and resilience. Join us as we embark on a journey of self-discovery, empowerment and celebrate the stories of those who fearlessly embraced their authenticity on the path to pageant success. I'm Lila Sherry and I'm Rihanna Johnson. Welcome to Sash and Soul.
Speaker 1:Oh my gosh, y'all are in for a treat today. I don't know if that's a good thing or a bad thing, just kidding. We don't know what kind of treat we're in for, but yeah, we don't know either.
Speaker 3:This is our third day of marathon recording. We'll be done after today, but we needed to get a month ahead of time for the sake of trips and moving and so a little brain fried and we're just going to try and form sentences today and hope that it all works out.
Speaker 1:So bear with us and enjoy. We literally just like two seconds before we hit record, Like okay, we're going to talk about pageants and competing and being in relationships Go.
Speaker 3:So here we are. That's that no plan, no outline. It's just going to be what it is. I don't know if many podcast episodes have a structured outline or plan, as it is. Probably some of them do, but I'm thinking like we're going to be fine, right? I?
Speaker 1:think so. We're pageant girls. We're trained in talking. Also, we coach people on how to talk in the form of sentences.
Speaker 3:That's true, and practice, thought, organization, and here we are putting it into practice.
Speaker 1:Yes, we are dating. So, dating how? Okay? Let's, let's do a history of of dating and pageant life, okay.
Speaker 1:So when I first started competing, I was dating um, the guy that I started dating in high school, and I had a couple of different loves in high school. I think I'm what people would call like a um, a chronic dater. Like I just always seem to have a boyfriend. So dated him for my first two local titles. My third time, back to miss wisconsin, I had a different boyfriend. My ex-boyfriend decided to show up trying to win me back at Miss Wisconsin that year. Oh, there's a story I did not know. This happened my fourth year back when I won Miss Wisconsin, I was dating another guy. So, all in all, during the course of being Miss Wisconsin, I had competing for Miss Wisconsin. I had three different boyfriends. Then, when I was Miss Wisconsin the second time Well, actually the first time I was Miss Wisconsin my boyfriend and I broke up and also then got back together. And then, the second time I was Miss Wisconsin, my boyfriend and I broke up and then also got back together.
Speaker 1:And yeah, then say about the year and and then I was with him when I competed for Miss Wisconsin, usa. We broke up shortly thereafter and then kind of unintentionally met AJ, who is now my husband. So AJ, my husband, aj, who is now my husband. So AJ, my husband only knows post-pagent Rihanna and coach Rihanna. He does not know competition era Rihanna.
Speaker 3:How is that? Because I can't imagine Logan not knowing my pageant Lila life. How is it?
Speaker 1:It's been a lot of me teaching him about the struggles and the mindset glitches and the pressure that women are under and put themselves under when they're competing. And really the only reason that that is a topic of conversation for us is because it's a part of my life as a coach and so many of my clients. It's not that I'm sharing like the nitty gritty details of what's going on with my clients. I don't do that but, um, you know, just trying to help him understand like the level of intensity behind, you know, some of my coaching calls and like the stress that then I feel because I'm feeling for my clients and trying to help him understand the depth of it. It's very interesting it is, but he's caught on. It's taken a minute but he seems to be understanding the world a little bit better now.
Speaker 3:How many has he watched with you?
Speaker 1:He's actually really good at predicting too, so that's actually fun when we're watching together. He's pretty good at predicting the outcome, and so I want to get him in as a judge like a novice judge, but, um, oh, a handful. Like. He's been to a couple of sweeps competitions like Miss America sweeps here in Wisconsin. He's been to the Miss Chicago MAO with me. He's been to Miss Madison MAO with me. We went to Miss America together when oh gosh, what year was that. So Annie Jorgensen, who we had as a guest on Sash and Soul when she was competing at Miss America, aj and I went to that and then when she won Miss Georgia, we were there as well.
Speaker 1:So he's, yeah, he's been around and he's been to Miss Wisconsin. So he's been to local, state and national level pageants within within the Miss America system and then we've watched like Miss USA and Miss Universe and like had it on in the background so he's seen some of that. Um, yeah, I do think he's secretly into it, like okay, so you said that you, you were like you can't imagine being with Logan and him not knowing. Yeah, pageant life like your era of competing. So what's the history of your dating experiences?
Speaker 3:Well, okay. So I started competing when I was in middle school and so, like whatever middle school relationships you want to think about, that's probably what it was. High school, I had like one serious I say that I thought it was serious at the time boyfriend, but when I was in high school pageants were not as much a part of my life as they are now. So, like I don't, he didn't really know or get it or whatever. And then college I didn't have anybody again very serious or long-term until I met Logan towards the very end of college. So he's really been the only person that has actually seen me in the throes of it, and so here's okay. So this is a fun story. I'm mostly going to talk about Logan because there's really not much else to say when it comes to my dating life, but Logan to say when it comes to my dating life, but Logan.
Speaker 3:So for those who don't know, logan comes from a family. So his mother was my pageant coach, wardrobe consultant, since I was 14. That's how I met this family right. And then I competed with his sister in different age divisions. We were never against each other, but we were title holders together. I've known her since I was 14. We were never against each other, but we were title holders together. I've known her since I was 14. And so Logan has been around his sister competing in pageants since she was like four or five years old.
Speaker 1:So his mom, because his mom also competed.
Speaker 3:Yes, his mom competed when she was an adult, when we were already dating. So that was. I didn't know that. Okay, yep. So since then, though, we met when I was in my later years of college, so I'd already known his mom, I'd already known his sister, and he needed a date to a wedding, and essentially it was. It was like a family friend thing. Just go to this wedding and you'll know Paige, and that's how we got together. But then after that, that's when I started competing in MAO, and solely MAO, so he didn't know me in all of the other pageant competitions that I competed in, I think early days, he knew me since UNM, but we were not dating. At that point it was really sweet, we weren't even dating, and he was sending me screen recordings of the live stream so that I could have videos, because we weren't going to get the videos.
Speaker 3:I don't know if you're supposed to do that anyways, but that was really sweet. We weren't even dating and he was like team Lila. I was like am I going to marry this guy? Yes, so yeah, he's only out. Yes, I know, I know. If if only Lila could see this four or five years ago that's really cute so anyways.
Speaker 3:Okay, so Logan has only seen me compete in MAO, but his sister had gone through the MAO system. His mom had known a little bit about it, so I was always really grateful that I didn't have to explain the craziness to him. And he saw me at probably some of my most heightened not crazy times, because I never cared that much. I cared. But like the fake tanning or the big hair or the heavy makeup, sometimes you just don't want to have to explain the craziness of why you do the things that you do. And that's the thing is that he always understood why somebody would want to compete or why people continue to compete. So it was just very, very natural for us. It was just a part of our life. I never had to explain anything to him. And then now here we are.
Speaker 3:So he was there watching me compete for Miss Wisconsin the first time, watched me compete, the second time, watched me win, was there through the entire year during Miss Wisconsin, and I'm saying like wasn't working some days so that I didn't have to drive to appearances Like he was there experiencing it, the throes of it, the crazy things that people say, the crazy schedule, the crazy background with the organization, and so he really was like I don't think I would have gotten through the year without him. I mean, I could have done it, but knowing how much of a help he was and how much he just was, just like, yep, this is how it is, and I know, this is how it is and we're just going to get you through it, I'm just very grateful to have that. So, yeah, kind of a different experience. I didn't really have to explain much.
Speaker 1:Having witnessed your guys' relationship throughout your year as Miss Wisconsin 2, I do have to say, if you're listening and you're thinking about dating and competing and maybe you're with someone that you're just kind of questioning, I don't know if this is like really working out. I mean witnessing Lila and Logan together during her year as Miss Wisconsin. He like I just have to like shout out to Logan he was so level headed, so even keel, so patient, so just validating and loving on you and also a voice of reason. He just like he was like the epitome of a duck swimming, gliding on water, like looks like it's just chilling but paddling like crazy underneath. Like I know he was, like you know, very mindful and on top of stuff for you all year long and but it like he just never lost his cool. It just I'm just like, oh, the ideal, the epitome, so.
Speaker 1:But then I had like some different experiences Like I reflect back on, like the boyfriends that I had while I was competing and just some of the red flags of like them being attention seekers when the spotlight was on me, or like when I had back-to-back appearances and I was exhausted and they're like playing pranks on me and like trying to get like the attention and trying to like flirt and stuff, and I'm just like this is not okay, like, but I didn't feel worthy enough in myself to just be like nope, we're done, I'm going to do this for me and I don't need you Like. When I say chronic dater, I mean like I just, yeah, I had some like fear of rejection and fear of being alone, stuff going on. So I was one of those that like I think I built a lot of self-confidence as a title holder and like competing and stuff, but there was still a big part of me like internally and like intimacy wise, where I just was still a big part of me like internally and like intimacy wise, where I just felt like I needed some kind of like romantic connection or somebody to want me, and so, like I had some setbacks and downfalls from that. That I've certainly learned a lot from it gives me a totally different perspective. But your guys' relationship like I just applaud it and I can see and like having watched you guys go through a lot more than just the pageant stuff this past year, I'm just like, oh, I can't wait to see everything else you guys accomplished together. I'm just like, oh, I love it.
Speaker 1:I love you, guys, I love, love.
Speaker 3:That made me a little emotional, I will say I I guess I don't say that I take it for granted, but to me that's, that's just him, like that is just Logan. It wasn't like like he oh my gosh stepped up to the plate so crazy because of my. Here is Miss Wisconsin. That's just who he is, 24-7. We all have our moments, but that's just my man.
Speaker 3:Anyways, I was going to say, though, there's a big reason why there is a pageant boyfriend as Miss State Title Holder to marriage pipeline and there's also a breakup during your year as Miss State Title Holder pipeline, and it's really a lot of the times. I just see one or the other. I don't see much of an in-between. I saw a post from my Miss Ohio who was basically saying that she and her boyfriend was the first couple to get through the entire year of Miss Ohio. In the years of Miss Ohio, I'm talking a hundred years, guys, years, guys. That's a testament to the nuttiness and just the craziness that happens. Some of a sentiment of you shouldn't have a boyfriend, which we'll talk about, but another sentiment of just how crazy your life can be and how much a relationship just sometimes does not fit into that, which I also think.
Speaker 3:Maddie, being our Miss America and being engaged right after Miss America and having her year of first year of engagement, really as Miss America, is so beautiful and such a good example of what we can look to.
Speaker 3:I mean, I will just say, behind the scenes, when Maddie talks about Walker, her fiance, it is very it's just sweet and it's very solid and stable, and so it's really cool to see that as a Miss America who is having a crazy year, and how different that is from former Miss America's relationships. So, anyways, I mean, if you want an insight into the world, there is definitely when you make it through your year as Miss State Title Holder, there is a pipeline to getting engaged and it's funny because people say, if he can make it through this year, you guys can make it through any year and, honestly, life can be harder than the challenges that a pageant year might throw at you. Absolutely, but it is a different level of like. Why am I dealing with this again? And you have to like remind yourself so to people who don't know. There's a pipeline and it's very much real.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it is real.
Speaker 1:But I think there's a couple of things to this, because I think it can be easily just looking at the guy and being like can he handle this, but you also have to look internally and be like well, can I handle managing all the things I need to do for me and my goals and also make sure that I'm contributing in a meaningful way to this relationship.
Speaker 1:Now, like every single relationship, it's going to the balance is going to ebb and flow between who is giving more and who is, you know, taking more. Um, as as a title holder, when you're going after a big goal of like going to miss America, or when you have this once in a lifetime opportunity to be Miss America, you're taking a little bit more from that relationship. And so if you're with someone that's willing to give more and to receive less, I mean that's, I think, helpful, because I think that was helpful for you guys, for you and Logan during your year as Miss Wisconsin. I think where it starts to fall apart is if they're not willing to give more or if you are really struggling to even meet their baseline basic needs as a girlfriend, as a partner yourself. So I think it's a little bit of give and take.
Speaker 1:I think there's a lot to chemistry, there's a lot to communication skills, a lot to um just your compatibility in general, um personality styles, um, like your own mental health, like there's just so many different layers to it that I don't think that AJ and I would have necessarily gotten through my year as Miss Wisconsin only because I was not at my best and we struggled with me not being Miss Wisconsin and like I just I can't imagine like having that added level to it. So I guess that's just to say like I don't necessarily believe in soulmates, so you got to put the work in. From my perspective, Like I said, compatibility and chemistry, like the intimacy, like all of that is very huge. Like the attraction is very, very important, but you have to put a lot of energy into like adjusting yourself slightly and helping them adjust to meet your needs too. Like it's just, it's just so complicated, so I don't think we would have survived. Honestly, I wonder what AJ would say about that.
Speaker 3:I know I'm thinking I'm like, do we get the guys in on this? That would actually be fun. Maybe stay tuned to the end to see if Logan will make an appearance on the podcast. I just think that I mean.
Speaker 3:So maybe we should talk about what are the factors that make a year as Miss Wisconsin so difficult when it comes to dating? And then I also want to touch on there are people in the pageant world that very much run a lot of the pageant world that do not agree with dating relationships, fiancés, that sort of thing, and it was a whole thing, at least during my year. So two parts to that let's talk about. First, though, what is it actually to somebody who wouldn't understand why it would be so difficult to date? I mean, it's difficult to do much besides be a title holder. Your year as being a title holder right, we can talk about work and your career and how that kind of gets put on hold for a little bit, but why is it so difficult to have relationships? Or why is it such a topic for the pageant girls who know it's such a topic?
Speaker 1:That's a loaded question, though, because there's so many different variants to it. So it's like, first of all, it's a year of you as a title holder getting a lot of attention and you as a title holder having to focus a lot on yourself and when I say yourself, I mean, like, your own personal development, your preparation, your appearances, your busy schedule, everything else that you have going on, like balancing all the life stuff. And if you're with someone that really struggles like let's talk about the five love languages, for example right, like if quality time is one of their number one love languages and you don't have a whole lot of time or energy to give to meet that need that they have that may cause some disruption in the balance of the relationship and that there might be some jealousy, there might be some resentment, there might be, you know, some frustration, some irritability, and that's going to put more pressure on you as a title holder. When you're already feeling this pressure to meet the expectations and the needs of others as a title holder, and then to add on the expectations and the needs of a significant other, that's just a lot. So I think that's one reason why it is incredibly difficult to maintain relationships. I also think some of it comes down to just not really knowing how to be in a healthy relationship, and I think that that was a big thing for me as a title holder and up until, like, aj and I learned how to develop and have a healthy relationship together. That is something that we have actively worked on. We have each been in therapy. Healthy relationship together that is something that we have actively worked on. We have each been in therapy separately and together. We've had numerous discussions, numerous arguments, debates, just turmoil in our relationship. That has caused us to learn how to be better in a relationship for one another, and so I think that's part of it too.
Speaker 1:When you're young and you're learning about yourself and changing so drastically that's going to be my next point Not knowing how to be in a relationship or in a healthy relationship is going to cause some upset, and that's pretty significant as a title holder. And then, finally, what I was just mentioning is the amount of drastic change that you go through as a title holder from the beginning of your year to the end is incredible. So if you're not with someone that can keep up with that, or they are uncomfortable with that change that they're seeing in you. That's going to cause some upset too, and that's what it looks like for somebody to try and hold you back, so like you don't change because they're uncomfortable with your change, versus someone that is walking right alongside you with that change.
Speaker 1:That's something that a therapist said to me once a while back of like imagine that you both have your own sidewalks and you each are like walking alongside these sidewalks, like you're either going to keep up with one another or you're not, and if one person wants to stay back, like you can't force them to come with you and they shouldn't be joining you on your sidewalk. You each have to walk your separate sidewalks. Oh, and, by the way, as you go, you're cleaning your sidewalks too, because you're building yourselves up and you're learning about life and you're making mistakes and you're cleaning off the sidewalk. You can't dump your stuff on his sidewalk and he shouldn't be dumping his stuff on your sidewalk. So you're both walking alongside one another cleaning up your own stuff, but like really walking hand in hand as you do that. So that growth is really incredible during your year. And if they can't keep up or choose not to keep up, then that's going to cause problems for you too.
Speaker 3:And I was going to make one more point to add on to that. I always said, miss Wisconsin years saw the highest of highs for me and the lowest of lows for me, for many different reasons. And I think people don't realize how difficult it can be to see somebody you're with or that you love in the lowest point mentally and just in life, and I think that can be scary too. I'm going to give some grace to the pageant boyfriends or pageant girlfriends, everyone included. How difficult that can be to see somebody in that way and I think that is the biggest thing is it's that cliche saying of you don't see me at my worst, you don't deserve me at my best. I don't totally agree with that, but I think it's an example of the difficulties that you're like oh, I didn't realize it was going to be this bad, because you see the shining and you see the crown and the beautiful photos and the beautiful moments and you don't realize how much of a low it can be behind the scenes. And then who's with you during the lowest of lows? Sometimes it's not even your family, it's you yourself, and then if it's your significant other, especially if you're living together, right, so that to me is also a big factor of do you actually want to be with somebody? Do you truly love them to the point of being okay with them at their lowest of lows?
Speaker 3:I was the worst of myself during a lot of the time as Miss Wisconsin. I look back and I think I will never be that person again because of how just terribly low I was. I mean, then your relationship really does get tested because then you ask yourself truly you look yourself in the mirror do I want to be with this person? If you're dating to marry in the mirror, do I want to be with this person? If you're dating to marry, do I want to be with this person forever after seeing them at the lowest of lows? It's a test to a relationship, that's. That's also a big factor to me too, because I think some people really do think well, no, this isn't really my person.
Speaker 1:I appreciate that you mentioned the grace for the significant others of the title holder, all of you partners out there. The thing that I have learned in my relationship and that I value so much now is that I don't ever want AJ to own my feelings. He can't. He's not responsible for my feelings. He should take accountability for invalidating me or doing something harmful, as I should do for him as well, and that's where apologies are necessary. But if I'm struggling with my anxiety and my depression, it's not his to fix, it's not his to solve sidewalk and be there for me and support me in the best ways that he knows how, and sometimes it's not going to be perfect. Most of the time it's not going to be perfect. I think that's a setback as a title holder in relationships again, because naturally you're going through a whole lot of new stuff and a lot of ups and downs and if you are expecting your significant other to be perfect throughout that whole thing, that that's a downfall in your relationship.
Speaker 3:A year as Miss State Title Holder will either solidify that you want to be with this person forever or it will make a rocky relationship fall apart. And that's really the basics of it, because you are tested to the extremes in all capacities and, like you said, it's really not tested in the way of yes, life will always test you right. You're never going to have a perfect, circumstantial, beautiful honeymoon marriage all the time. That's not what I'm saying. But what I'm saying is it will test you as a person, like you said, of being in a relationship, how you communicate, what you expect out of your partner, what your love language is. I like that. You talked about that and that's the part that can really be either detrimental or solidify that you want to be with this person. Anything else you'd add to that.
Speaker 1:No, I think so. This actually is an interesting segue into why certain people disagree with title holders having significant others when they're competing or when they are a title holder. I think part of it is when they genuinely see that relationships being in a romantic relationship as a title holder can actually take away from your experience and your personal growth, because it's just one other thing that you have to balance. One other thing that you have to balance and I think there's a lot of fear for volunteers and directors, people that are heavily involved with coaches, even for their title holder to be in a relationship, because you just don't know the dynamic of that relationship, how that significant other is going to behave and support that person, and it's just one additional layer to it that that you kind of have to monitor and support, um, as as as a director, um, so I get that from, like a very loving, caring standpoint.
Speaker 1:There are other people like those that that mentored me, like we're absolutely like, supportive of my relationships and we're never telling me to like break up with them or like even though there were probably multiple times that they wanted to say that to me but just trying to support me in the decisions that I made, and that was that was really valuable, I think, for me. It empowered me to decide for myself and that I didn't feel this extra pressure from others. Then I had a coach who didn't say not to have a boyfriend, but his thing was a Miss America, a Miss USA, and this universe is going to know her worth and she's not going to stick around with someone that is holding her back, and I thought that was really valuable. However, I struggled to take that advice again because of my lack of feeling like my lack of self-esteem and my lack of self-worth and like this deep fear of rejection that I've struggled with historically.
Speaker 3:I agree with that.
Speaker 3:I think it's important to recognize that if you're a supporter of a title holder and they have a relationship, and whether it's rocky or not, it can be something extra that you're navigating throughout the year. Here's where my frustration comes in is I heard a lot of either backhanded compliments or just really weird comments when it came to a title holder being in a relationship. As a woman, as a title holder, everybody kind of wants a piece of you to some extent when you're at an event or when you're talking to people, and sometimes I've seen people almost get offended that there is somebody there that is a man who is in your life and that you give attention to. That is a weird topic to get into, but I have noticed it and I want to recognize it because it was a really big frustration for me during my year. So I agree with everything that Ray said and I'm going to bring in this new experience that I had too, and I think a lot of people in the pageant world just kind of think the attention should 100% from a title holder be on the pageant world and every single person they're talking to and every single experience that they have. To some extent I get that. You only have a year. You are serving your state. You are somebody that should probably be big on service. However and this is my big however what you don't see at least from my end this is not with every relationship, but from my perspective what people didn't see was that he was helping me get to these appearances. He was the one taking these really fun photos for me. He was the one that was buying me food when I had no energy or time to get food. He was the one that was making sure that I was safe in a place where I had no cell service. He was the one that was making sure that I didn't forget my things when I was getting in a place where I had no cell service. He was the one that was making sure that I didn't forget my things when I was getting in the car. He was the one that was making sure the maintenance was up on the car. He was the one that was making sure the insurance was up on the car.
Speaker 3:I am in a situation where that's probably an outlier for some people, but the way that this man was backhandedly knocked for a lot of my year just made me so mad and I think that there is a conversation to be had about. If you're talking about loving on the family of a title holder and the support system of the title holder, that includes your relationship, if it's a healthy one, because you know what? There were times that he was there for me more than my mom was or was able to be right. He lived with me. He was the one that was there 24, seven and half the time was my mental unloading, for lack of a better word, and shouldn't be right. I have the people that I go to for my mental health, but in a lot of capacities he had to be there for me in that way and to calm me down in situations that were tough. So when we're talking about a healthy relationship and I hear the term pageant boyfriend a lot, right, you find yourself a pageant boyfriend. The girls talk about it a lot of the times.
Speaker 3:I think man, the people in the pageant world that don't see that is what really frustrates me and I think by the end of my year, the beginning of my year looked a lot different by the end of it, partially because of Logan and the way that he was helpful and partially because of Maddie being Miss America and the second Maddie got engaged.
Speaker 3:I think there was just doors open for a lot of women where it's like, so why can't I be engaged? And nobody else could be upset in the pageant world either if a state title holder was engaged because Maddie Miss America was engaged and the national system was okay with that and supported that and loved on that. So to me it looked a lot different by the end of my year and I'm so grateful for that change. A lot of it had to do with the Miss America system now and obviously Miss USA bringing in married women and being okay with that. But so many girls were secretly engaged, whether they wanted to be or not, were secretly engaged whether they wanted to be or not. It's so sad, yeah, and people would ask me are you secretly engaged? I got that a lot between me and Logan. So I mean I just wanted to touch on that part because it was a huge frustration for me throughout my year and frankly I think could have been really detrimental to me and Logan's relationship if it wasn't as solid as it was.
Speaker 1:You know, it's interesting all the things that have changed and I think this is interesting tie into, just like the sexism behind, like pageant title holders and significant others, because I think that's another reason why so many don't think that a title holder should have a significant other, and it's very much because of the Miss title that they should be single.
Speaker 1:But, like, there's some underlying issues with that of like you know, if we go way, way, way back to the start of pageantry in the very early beginning of Miss America, when it was just a bikini competition, just a bikini competition Like this was, like you know, putting women on a pedestal as the ideal in in the country, and so then, therefore, the most desirable and you're less desirable if you are not available, and so it's, it's like honestly feels a little bit meat markety, which is really really gross, um, gross.
Speaker 1:So I wanted to make that point because I do think that there's some underlying, even if subconscious, idea about why title holders should be single. But it's interesting to point out too that when I first started competing in 2007, we were literally and this was in the Miss America organization in particular literally not allowed to live with our significant other. There was a local title holder that had to give up her title because they found out that she was living with her boyfriend. Wow, so now flash forward to now, and you lived with Logan the entire year as Miss Wisconsin. You were living with him when you won.
Speaker 3:Yeah, which was almost a thing so. I just put that out there. It wasn't an easy conversation, but yes, that was a thing. Yep, yep.
Speaker 1:Yep, but you're not the first, no Wisconsin to live with her boyfriend. I stayed at my boyfriend's quite a bit because he was living in like green Bay at the time, which was like three or four hours away from where I was, and I had appearances up there. So it was like you know, like that, it's just kind of a part of it now and I think you're right Now that Miss USA, miss Universe, is allowed to be married and have kids, now that we've seen Madison Marsh be engaged as Miss America, it really is just kind of easing that tension behind whether or not a woman, as a title holder, is allowed to like, do like, have this private life and if it needs to be completely private, or if she can share that, that piece of her, that that's part of her identity and that you know, that's really important. I think for me too, I didn't want to be engaged as a title holder really important. I think for me too, I didn't want to be engaged as a title holder.
Speaker 1:For me I like I know a lot of girls like that was their, their goal, they couldn't wait to get engaged and I respect that.
Speaker 1:I love that, um for them, but for me I needed to do these things for me.
Speaker 1:I needed to be a title holder solo, like yes, I was dating someone, but like that was my bling for the time being and I didn't want to like split my celebration between, you know, being a title holder and then also being engaged at the same time, and that's. That's not the case for everybody, but for me it was, and I think that was just kind of a value that was instilled in me when I was young, because it was like it was kind of the things were like you do things in stages right, like I didn't get my ears pierced until I was a certain age because my mom was like you got to leave some things to be excited about, and it was like I couldn't do my makeup until like a certain age. She's like you got to leave some things to be excited about. So I think that's just a value for me of like the anticipation and the excitement for the future and what's to come, that I don't need to do it all right now.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I also, very much different than you, was in the relationship that I knew I wanted to be in for life. We me and Logan have talked about marriage for a long time, but I still and he was the same way. He said we are not getting engaged until this is over. This has to be over. We need some time to wind down and then it'll happen, yep, and then it'll happen, yep. So absolutely I agree. I'm glad it happened the way that it did, I guess.
Speaker 3:Just to round that out, I, yes, there are times where boyfriends and relationships can make life as a title holder more difficult, but that was just. I would always get so angry when there was any sort of backhanded comment or insinuation of me that I shouldn't be in the space to have a relationship, and I'm glad that the pageant world is opening itself up a little bit more to that Because, like you said, it's a huge part of your identity and I always thought, man, if you just got to know Logan and how he got to this point, he knows a lot more about pageants than you probably even do. I'm just going to say that the way that he grew up.
Speaker 3:So, yeah, I mean we can, we can be done with that part of the conversation, but that was, oh, I wanted to some people there in my ear. Well, I guess, since we talked about that, when our pageant boyfriends I don't want to say not okay, but when should they not be literally in the picture or when should they back off a little bit. Because I want to say, in tandem to all of these things that I'm talking about, there is etiquette to boyfriend and relationships when you are a title holder local, state and, of course, nationally. Because I just wanted to talk about this because here's from my experience, they knew, when I became Miss Wisconsin, who Logan was. They obviously knew his family. Whatever sentiment they had with that is none of my business.
Speaker 3:However, there was a sense of etiquette when it came to if he's there with you at an appearance. He is not with you in photos, he is not the one that is front and center. He's essentially your bodyguard, for lack of a better word. With him with your crown and sash on, you're not kissing him with your crown and sash on. Things like that was largely understood by me already, but was a part of the deal, so to speak. So I wanted to touch on that too, because it's not just now that we're okay with having boyfriends and fiancés that all of a sudden we're just going to be're okay with having boyfriends and and fiance's, that all of a sudden like we're just going to be making out with him whenever we want. There is a real sense of professionalism that both you, as a title holder, have to have, but also your partner needs to know about and act on accordingly as well.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so we're talking about relationship etiquette as a title holder. Now, right, I want to make sure that we're being inclusive too, and I've heard you mention partner. I heard you mentioned, like girlfriend, boyfriend, like let's acknowledge that you and I are both speaking from a cisgender, heterosexual standpoint, being around coaching clients, that there are title holders out there that are dating men, dating women, dating transgender individuals, so want to be inclusive. But so let's just talk about etiquette in general when you're in a significant romantic relationship as a title holder, I think as the partner, not making it about you, like that's a really tough thing to do.
Speaker 1:But I mentioned earlier that my first boyfriend that was with me when I started competing showed up to Miss Wisconsin on year three, like trying to surprise me, trying to be all romantic or whatever, which actually was just kind of creepy and stalkerish. But I was dating someone new, like it was a very, very new relationship and he was at Miss Wisconsin. Lord have mercy. So, long story short, new boyfriend handled things so well, was so respectful, like quiet, standoffish, like he literally waited for me to come to him after I and I had a lot of people there to like cause I was.
Speaker 1:It was one of those titles where it was very community driven and so I had a lot of like community members that were there and so he waited very patiently for me to like get through saying hi to everybody else and taking a bunch of pictures and waited for me to come to him. I thought that was really beautiful etiquette versus the ex-boyfriend that truly made it all about himself and was just trying to get my attention the whole time and that was kind of like our entire relationship. He was the one that like when I was I had back-to-back appearances and really late nights was like pulling pranks on me and like just meeting my attention constantly and being really loud, and it was just like all the red flags that I was too young to like really do anything about.
Speaker 3:My head would be spinning.
Speaker 1:It was, my head was spinning, but I just so appreciated new boyfriend I'm not naming any names, obviously like on purpose new boyfriend for just staying so calm and chill and he he was a really good pageant boyfriend. He was the one that I was with when I was living in Texas when Laura Kepler won Miss America and we were sitting there watching Miss America. I was on the couch, he was sitting on the floor with his back leaning up against the couch. We're both in PJs.
Speaker 1:We just drove back to Texas from Wisconsin, took a nap, woke up to watch Miss America and we sat there, my mouth wide open, watching Laura Kepler be crowned Miss America as Miss Wisconsin, like be crowned miss wisconsin or miss america as miss wisconsin. And and he was staring at me with the same look on his face and then, like it was such a whirlwind, but he was so, he was so great. It actually reminded me so much of what you're talking about with logan, because I left like two days later and drove by myself I had just talked about this on a recent episode drove by myself all the way home, home overnight, with a flat tire, through a snowstorm or whatever, but he, that boyfriend, stayed on the phone with me, had three pots of coffee, stayed on the phone with me the entire time to make sure that I got back safe. That's the kind of thing that is powerful and helpful in a partner Like that's love.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and people don't see that. I just I wish you know what. We can almost end on this. I hope one day I don't know if I should share this, because it's my idea I'm patenting this idea that we'll get all the pageant husbands, boyfriends, partners, all inclusive to talk about their experiences through their eyes. That's my idea, If it happens. It's my idea, it was my idea.
Speaker 1:We'll do it on this show. What are you talking about?
Speaker 3:I know I'm like is Logan there, should he? Oh?
Speaker 1:I could bring AJ up.
Speaker 3:We just brought in the guys for a quick little cameo. So we're going to ask Logan Logan, what was the hardest part of being here during my year as Miss Wisconsin? Because we just talked about all of all of the things and everything that you were a part of. So they have background.
Speaker 4:This is going to sound so like, like, but like there wasn't really. There wasn't like a hard part, because I knew really what your, we kind of knew what the year was going to look like. I think the hardest part was going along on appearances and seeing how other people would act around you. I think that's that was the hardest part for me, because I think when you're a boyfriend, people just like this is weird, this is really weird.
Speaker 3:We already talked about all this.
Speaker 4:Oh, ok, well, because you don't want to say it wasn't like uncomfortable. But I think when people, when people meet you at an appearance, they don't know exactly what the organization stands for and what comes with the job. So they just see the sparkly hat and in their mind, because they don't have any sort of inference of what the job is or what your responsibilities, I think they might not take you as serious in that situation. And it's not my job to explain to them why you're there Right, and it's not my job to explain to them why you're there Right. And so it's like.
Speaker 4:Unfortunately, I think you come across a lot of people who it's not, it's not disrespectful, but their intentions in approaching you are misguided and can sometimes be kind of icky. So as a boyfriend, you have to kind of stay on the sidelines because it's not about you, but you also have to be protective enough to assert your dominance in a situation that could get ugly, if, say, someone's maybe at a fair, maybe had a little bit too much to drink, or maybe he's getting a little bit too handsy in a photo and it's not. That's not like every single scenario, but I think the hardest part is like finding that common ground between being nice and assertive and also not making yourself the center of attention because it's just, it's not about you okay, can we just like well said, honestly.
Speaker 1:You just made our point that we've been making the entire time, and also you guys. Is it any wonder that I've just been singing Logan's praise this entire episode? He's seriously level headed. That's what I'm saying. But, yeah, like you're totally right, Logan, it's like you you're in such a weird position as the significant other because you're just watching from the sidelines and like you have to let Lila like do her thing. And also like you're just on guard the whole time and like yeah, this is exactly why I wanted to bring you in.
Speaker 3:Thank you, I think that's important for people to hear too, because we could babble all day, but it's. It's also a completely different perspective, because we were saying, I guess I'll never know what it's like either.
Speaker 1:Right. So exactly, I mean, unless Logan wants to do a pageant, I mean I'd be here.
Speaker 4:No, no, we're good, we're good, we're tapped out on that.
Speaker 1:All right, so we also brought my husband, aj, in. And, aj, what we've been talking about with you has has really been about, like, what have you learned about the pageant world since you weren't really involved when I was a title holder?
Speaker 3:But we were saying because I've never had to like teach Logan what this is all about and I say this sometimes to Ray, but also on the podcast. We know we're crazy partially in pageantry, like we get it. We know we're crazy partially in pageantry, like we get it, but we just know, we're just kind of used to it. So what is it like from somebody who wasn't in the throes of it and is now learning about it?
Speaker 5:it was so long ago that I had to yeah, learn all this that's true I don't wow, thanks for aging us.
Speaker 1:We've been together for almost eight years everyone.
Speaker 5:It's become second nature to me now, so I can't even think about what it was like then.
Speaker 1:Do you think we would have survived our relationship when I was Miss Wisconsin? Yeah, really, even as young as we were and all the stuff that we've been through. Wow, you guys.
Speaker 5:We have been through a lot in our past eight years and everything that we've been through has just made us stronger, yeah that's true so. I think that if I were with you when you were, miss Wisconsin, that we just want to come out stronger from that as well.
Speaker 1:Okay, what's your advice then to title holders as to when to call it quits when you're with a guy, Would you okay? So let's say we have a daughter someday, Would you support her doing pageants? Oh?
Speaker 5:absolutely why? Because it would I mean it would just help her become a bigger, better person. She can get to experience a lot. Experience a lot of people, make friends, maybe start her own podcast. Oh yeah, yeah, I mean, the options would be endless.
Speaker 1:AJ has been one of my biggest. He bought me this microphone. Aj has been one of my biggest. He bought me this microphone. My biggest supporter for this AJ.
Speaker 3:Yeah, all right, thanks, babe. All right, thanks guys.
Speaker 1:This is so funny with the move, logan, please keep that in.
Speaker 3:I actually thought that was really good. I think we needed to have that level of different perspective because we kept talking about it. We need to hear it from somebody else. Well, that was fun.
Speaker 1:Maybe we'll have to bring them back on for a cameo, but they can be a little more prepared than for us to be like come on guys, come on guys.
Speaker 3:Yeah, come on guys. Yeah, maybe, maybe, maybe this is a year or two down the line, but we could do a. We'll do a newlywed episode, which I guess you guys will have already been wed, but I think you're newlywed. Until you're at least five years in, right, we'll do a. Yeah, we'll do a newlywed episode and we'll have both of them. And wouldn't that be fun. We got to wrap this up Well. On that note, I hope that was beneficial to hear from their perspective and I hope maybe even for partners listening that that was helpful, because I think there needs to be a pageant partner community too, because there's so many things that they go through that we can't help them with and that it's probably a universal experience among a lot of them. That I mean pageant partner support group.
Speaker 1:on that note. It sounds like it's a really traumatic experience for them when you put it that way.
Speaker 3:Maybe it is, maybe it is. Maybe. We wouldn't know if it was. Maybe we got to dig into that.
Speaker 1:Anyways, crazy, all right, all right, cool. Well, thanks for uh listening to us babble about relationships and pageantry.
Speaker 1:This actually turned out like I am impressed by us, not surprised because, again, we're trained on speaking and we're trained on doing so intelligently and spontaneously. So, like, go us, we've still got it, I think. Yeah, um, I guess we'll let the listeners be the judge of that. But, yeah, thanks for tuning in. Let's just wrap up by saying hope you're all doing well. We will chat with you again next week. Bye, bye, hey, you guys, if you love what you're hearing on Sash and Soul and you're preparing for a pageant competition, you have to check out our free online training.
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