Designing Tomorrow: Creative Strategies for Social Impact

Amanda Litman on How Real Change Happens

• Eric Ressler • Episode 59

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0:00 | 28:34

What if real change doesn't begin with institutions, campaigns, or capital — but with the people we invite into our lives?

In this episode, Eric sits down with Amanda Litman, co-founder of Run for Something and author of When We’re In Charge, to explore how small, human-scale actions can spark transformational impact — from politics to parenting to how we rebuild our social lives post-pandemic.

Amanda has helped 225,000+ people raise their hands to run for office — and she’s just getting started. In this candid conversation, she breaks down how we show up, lead, connect, and fundraise in ways that build community rather than extract from it.

Episode Highlights:

[00:00] What if real change starts with people — not policy, profit, or programs?
[02:49] Amanda’s three-pronged theory of social change: electoral power, workplace culture, and human relationships
[04:25] The power of “casual hosting” to rebuild adult friendships and community
[07:11] Why digital connection often feels empty — and what we can do about it
[09:12] Designing invitations people can say “yes” to — both in life and in leadership
[11:58] Fundraising is broken. Here's how we fix it without losing integrity
[14:48] “Don’t treat your supporters like crap.” Amanda on the ethics of political messaging
[18:48] How millennials are redefining leadership in the workplace
[21:29] Why personality — not brand — is key to breaking through on new media
[24:18] What keeps Amanda going when everything feels impossible
[26:21] The origin story of Run for Something and what’s coming next

 Notable Quotes:

“If work sucks less, people can be better parents, partners, and citizens.” — Amanda Litman [03:20]

 “Don’t treat your supporters like crap. If you’ve told them the sky is falling for ten years — what now that it’s actually falling?” — Amanda Litman [16:05]

 “I only drink the poison I have the antidote for.” — Amanda Litman [25:06]

 “Organizations can’t really tell a story. A person can.” — Amanda Litman [22:43]

 “We make it easy to say yes — whether it's dinner or running for office.” — Amanda Litman [09:12]


P.S. — Struggling to align your message with your mission? We help social impact leaders like you build trust-building brands through authentic storytelling, thoughtful design, and digital strategy that works. Let’s talk about your goals »

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Thank you for all that you do for your cause and for being part of the movement to move humanity and the planet forward.

Speaker 1:

How does real change happen? That's a question I've been wrestling with lately. When we look at our biggest problems, what are the most effective levers we have to pull? The first, and arguably the most important, is government the idea that we create change together through our public institutions. But that belief is being tested right now, not because the idea is wrong, but because there are deliberate efforts to reshape the very theory of government. Happening in real time, we see agencies being dismantled, budgets being slashed and disinformation being sown, and when the government is sidelined like this, it makes it impossible to deliver on its promise.

Speaker 1:

Then there's the free market, the argument that change comes from competition, from innovation, from the power of business, that where government fails, the free market has better and more efficient solutions, as long as there's money to be made in the process. And then there's us the third way, the social impact sector. Here to take on the problems the first two sectors are unwilling or unable to solve. But our sector is exhausted, it's under-resourced and right now it's struggling. But what if the answer isn't about choosing one of these levers? What if the real engine of change is something more fundamental, a force that underlies all three of these paths but isn't about policy or profit or programs. It's about people.

Speaker 1:

To explore what that looks like in practice, I wanted to talk with someone who has put this theory into action at a massive scale, and that person is Amanda Lippman. Amanda is the co-founder of Run for Something, an organization that has recruited over 225,000 ordinary citizens to run for office and helps more than 1,500 of them win, and her latest book, when we're in Charge, charts a new course for leadership and our relationship with work. In our conversation, she answers the very question I've been wrestling with. In a digital culture that feels increasingly transactional, how do we build authentic human connection and how do we focus that connection on powering meaningful social change, and how do we focus that connection on powering meaningful social change? I'm Eric Ressler, and this is Designing Tomorrow and now, my conversation with Amanda Lippman. Amanda, thanks for joining me today.

Speaker 2:

Thank you for having me, Eric.

Speaker 1:

So I'm really excited to have you on the show here, for a number of reasons. I think the thing I really would love to dig into first is just understanding how you think about how change happens, especially right now in this moment in America, and we can look at this from politics, but I'm really also just curious about just social change in general. You have a lot of thoughts on this. In your opinion, what's our best strategy for actually bringing about the changes that we want to see?

Speaker 2:

I think there are lots of different avenues for social change, which sounds like a mealy-mouthed answer, but I think you need all the different avenues in order to actually get progress.

Speaker 2:

So I think there's obviously electoral that's the work that I do at RUM for something where you're trying to get people elected who can be different kinds of decision makers, who can move the needle, especially on the local level cities, states, counties, that kind of thing. Um, I think, in the small scale way, um, I think business leaders can have a really big way to make a difference in people's lives. You know, I had a book come out in may about Code One. We're in Charge about female leading differently, and one of the arguments I make in the book is that actually, if work sucks less, it creates more time for people to be better partners parents, friends, citizens, community members and that that can actually transform society if enough business leaders operate in that way. And I think there's ways in our relationships with one another that we can move things forward, thinking about how to be a better friend, how to be a better parent, a better partner, which, if we are all making collectively little decisions in service of that, it adds up to something big.

Speaker 1:

One of the things I've been really interested to follow you on Substack is this idea of casual hosting, which is something that actually really resonated with me. I'm also a parent. I have some young kids. Watching the rapid deterioration of my social life being a young parent has been an interesting and unexpected side effect, and my wife and I are trying to navigate this as well. How did that first come across your experience, and I'd love for you to just kind of share your experience there a little bit.

Speaker 2:

So, like most good things in my life, it's because of my husband. So my husband is a therapist. He works in mental health all day long. He was listening to some podcast, I think at the end of last year. My second daughter was born in September. So right now I have a two and a half year old and a 10 month old deep in it.

Speaker 2:

But we were at that point still in the newborn trenches, and he was listening to some podcasts and they were talking about Shabbat dinners, like hosting people every Friday to have them around your home, and the beauty and the tradition and the ritual of that and he got it in his head that he wanted to do something similar. But with two little kids, with busy jobs they do. A Friday night felt like unimaginable. You know, the idea of Friday night felt unimaginable. Kids go to bed pretty early, thank God.

Speaker 2:

So we decided that he was going to make a New Year's resolution to host people in our home every Saturday in 2025. And I thought this was absolutely insane. I was like, all right, baby, whatever you want to do, I'm down for a good time, but we can try. We have since done it every Saturday in 2025. We have either hosted people for dinner or gone over to someone else's home for dinner a couple of times. Once or twice we did it on Sunday, judaism Passover. We had a Seder on Sunday instead of Saturday, but every weekend this year we've had time with adults and, occasionally, little kids, to eat, to hang out, and what we've learned is that it's both transformative for our social life, way lower stakes than you need it to be, and so meaningful to take people from acquaintances to friends, which is, I think, the hardest thing to do I have found as an adult, especially as an adult with little kids.

Speaker 1:

I want to touch on this a little bit deeper because I've been thinking a lot about how digital culture shapes real world experiences and to me it feels like we're in kind of a strange period of the internet right now where we don't really all know how to show up and the platforms are constantly changing and the more that the promise of digital connection is kind of touted by these platforms, the more far removed it actually kind of feels, in at least my personal lived experience.

Speaker 1:

And so this speaks to me very deeply around. Just it sounds so simple, but just like reconnecting with people in our lives and when we're in this moment of just extreme and growing polarization politically in a way that's getting in our way as a culture and as a society of actually even making things that we all agree on happen, I'm just kind of curious how you're navigating that and thinking about how do you actually show up digitally in a meaningful way? Because there is something real about meaningful digital connection. We're doing this podcast and this episode remotely and if it weren't for that, maybe it never would have happened right, and if it weren't for that, maybe it never would have happened right. But at the same time, there's this tension and this yearning for just real, authentic human connection. How are you thinking about all that right now?

Speaker 2:

Such a good question because, especially when you're in the trenches with little kids, it's really hard to be in person. I'm at the whim of my daughter's naptimes and so really thinking about how am I using my group chats, how am I engaging? And so really thinking about, like, how am I using my group chats, how am I engaging? Like it's okay for some of my friendships right now to be weak ties that are DMs over Instagram or sending memes and TikToks back and forth. That's not a replacement for a friendship, but that's okay if that's what the friendship is right now, understanding that it has to be something more later. One of the things that I am really really careful about, especially in this stage of my life, is making sure that I am not letting things go unanswered, which I know can be very easy for things to fall through the cracks If I get a text message and even if I can't, answer it immediately.

Speaker 2:

I try to remember to answer it later If I get an email. I try to work through my inbox pretty quick if I get a dm, not to say that like that's not, um, a point of pride necessarily, but that I know how frustrating it is to be on the other side of that, where you send the text and never gets answered and then you're like, well, do I double text or triple text? They actually don't want to talk to me at all. It's's like never personal but it feels personal. So being really careful about when people are extending bits for connection, to try and take them and return that as much as I can. It's so hard, though it's so hard.

Speaker 1:

It is hard, and I think one of the things that's making this so hard is just the sheer volume of information that each of us is exposed to. Is just a normal human being in our modern culture? It's unreasonable, right? It's really not. It's incongruent with our psychology and our capacity as humans, and I think about that a lot, and I'd love to hear your thoughts about this. As a leader of a movement, of a nonprofit, of an organization extending that same challenge, how do you think about actually growing your reach, but in a meaningful way, to make your mission come true?

Speaker 2:

I think a lot about what can I do to make it easy for people to say yes, which is kind of the same thing we're doing with dinners. We're like we just say come over at five o'clock, here are three Saturdays that are available. Which of these works for you? If not those three, how about these three?

Speaker 2:

The work that we do at Run for Something asking people to run for office is an incredibly challenging thing. Our job is to ask as many people as we can and then make it really easy for them to say yes. We do that through digital tactics, we do that through onboarding, we do that through resource generation. I do that through accessible communication. But what can I do as an organization or as a leader so that if I'm asking someone to do something, it's so easy for them to satisfy that it feels really intuitive. But you would be surprised maybe you wouldn't about how many times you ever get an email from someone. You're like I don't know what you're asking me to do here. I don't know what you want me to do. I want to help you, but I don't know what help looks like, and if I don't know what help looks like, I can't provide it.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I mean, this is the like hey, can I pick your brain kind of email that you might get right.

Speaker 2:

I hate, feel bad, because sometimes people send me those and like I've written and I wrote in the book. I wrote in Substack, whatever. Don't pick my brain. Ask me a specific question. I will give you a specific, concrete answer. Picking my brain is not fun for me and it's not going to be helpful for you.

Speaker 1:

It also feels like when you get a request like that, you don't know what you're even really saying yes to. The motivations can be unclear, and I think that I've been thinking a lot about fundraising tactics, more from the nonprofit space, but also sometimes in the political world. I think fundraising has become just so tragically transactional and broken, and I say this, seeing this being true on both sides of the aisle. I somehow get text messages from every side of the aisle. You can imagine at this point and I mean no one's winning there. In my opinion, there's some very rare exceptions. I know this is a topic that's being broadly discussed is like how can we do this in a more constructive, authentic way but still actually, you know, raise the funds that we need to?

Speaker 1:

We're in a moment right now where funding is falling very short for a lot of social impact organizations fall out from you know, the federal funds being basically evaporated, usaid being spun down. You know, recklessly, a lot of the people that we're working with, causes that we're working with, are not only short on funds. Maybe they lost funding just completely out of the blue, with no planning, no preparation. But what I'm hearing on the front lines is that fundraising is more competitive than it's ever been. How are you thinking about fundraising in your world? And, just more broadly, like, how can we bring people together for these movements in a way that's constructive, in a way that's not extractive or transactional?

Speaker 2:

I've been thinking a lot about this because my original career entry point was in digital fundraising. My first job was doing online fundraising for Barack Obama's presidential campaign in 2012. I did the same thing in 2014. And then I ran Hillary Clinton's email program, which was just asking people for money and volunteer and engage in other ways, but primarily grassroots support. And I remember very vividly in 2012 running an experiment on our email list testing. Was there such a thing as too much email, like I? Literally one of my jobs for like two months was that every day, I was responsible for like picking the two or three emails we were gonna send that day and sending it to an additional test group and a control group to determine was there a limit to how many times we could ask people to give and, and what we found in that experiment. This was 2012,.

Speaker 2:

So 13 years ago, over a decade ago, more email meant more money, even when you factored it in unsubscribes, and if our job on the campaign was to raise the money to help win, that was worth it, even if people complained. Now we were also really thoughtful and careful about the tactics that we used as part of those emails. We were really intentional about making emails sound like the people they were coming from. Think about treating supporters with respect. We never. One of our guiding ethoses of our program was to never treat the list like an ATM. Over the decades since then, I think people have internalized and programs have internalized. The more email means more money. You ask more, you get more without remembering the treating people with respect part.

Speaker 2:

Run for something does not run a program like that. We ask email people for money pretty regularly because we're doing work that I believe deserves to be funded, but not every time, not every day. I am really rigorous about the kinds of things I approve. Sometimes we do things and I'm like we need to scale that back next time, and I think it's important because we're trying to build something long-term and sustainable, and that means we want our supporters to be with us for the long-term. I can't burn those bridges.

Speaker 2:

Campaigns have a very different mindset. Nonprofit groups can have a very different mindset. Now, one of the tensions to all of this is that if you aren't, you know, putting your foot to the fire, pedal to the metal for your small dollar fundraising, which is primarily email, social text, messaging, that kind of thing the money has to come from somewhere else. Right now it's not Major money. Anyone working with foundations or institutions or major donors knows that money is also not really moving in a meaningful way, so we're sort of at a standstill. I still don't think that's an excuse to treat supporters like crap, um, but I understand the motivation for these organizations to do so. It's a big conversation among the democratic left and, I imagine, among the broader non-profit sector of like. How do you do this in a way that sustains the work but also sustains the relationship?

Speaker 1:

I want to touch on that a little bit more deeply, because I've thought about this parallel between what I've observed with political candidates and their campaigns and how they fundraise versus the nonprofit sector, and I always kind of chalked it up to well, at the end of the day, these folks need to raise as much money as quickly as they can. At the end of that, they either win or they lose the campaign, and so they can, you know, to put it bluntly essentially afford to burn some bridges if that means they might win. And I don't think that's ever been true. Really I don't think it's true for nonprofits and ever been true. Really I don't think it's true for nonprofits.

Speaker 1:

And I think that that mindset to your point has kind of spilled over a little bit more into the nonprofit space. This kind of fake urgency, negativity, bias, these tactics that just make me feel icky, even from candidates that I might want to support or groups that I want to support, who I believe in the work, but their reputation is tarnished because of the way that they're fundraising and I wonder, is that coming back to bite us now, like this decade plus of fundraising in that way? In a way that's kind of tarnished the brand where I think a lot of supporters do feel essentially like ATM machines right now 100%.

Speaker 2:

I think if you've been telling supporters for a decade the sky is falling, kiss all hope, goodbye, and then the sky does fall, what do you do? Like? What was it for? It feels like we've been gaslit. I also think it is so shady Many of the tactics that many of these organizations and organizers are using.

Speaker 2:

It's just like lying, no-transcript, and the ends never justify the means. On that front, kind of a hot take maybe, but I think it is worth being really on the level with people. If you are doing work, that is good, if you have a story to tell that is honest and true, if the impact is clear, then you should be able to raise money telling that story. There's, like you know, supporter record like, oh, you haven't given yet this year. I think that's fine, within reason. Like there's ways to do that way. That is like respectful. But it's the 400x match happening today. Deadline tonight. We gotta surge the money to xyz thing. And trying to like raise money off of a thing that you're not even related to the work you're doing, no, no, shitty treats people like crap and they deserve better than that. And it's emblematic of how voters in particular feel about the organization like the Democratic Party's brand. They feel like they've been told we're fighting, we're fighting, we're fighting. Are we? Is this what fighting looks like? Doesn't seem like fighting to me.

Speaker 1:

Hey friends, real quick before we continue today's episode. I'm Eric Ressler, founder and creative director at Cosmic. Cosmic is a creative agency purpose-built for nonprofits and mission-driven organizations. For the last 15 years, we've helped leaders like you nail your impact story and sharpen your strategy, but we're not here to just leave you with a fancy slide deck and a pat on the back. We roll up our sleeves and help you bring our ideas to life through campaigns, creative and digital experiences. Our work together helps you earn trust, connect deeply with your supporters and grow your fundraising and your impact.

Speaker 1:

If you value the thinking we share here and want it applied to your biggest challenges, let's talk at designbycosmiccom. All, right back to today's conversation. Let's tie this into one of the other big topics that you're talking about a lot right now, which is just like the change the generational change really in work culture and what we're expected to do and what it means to show up at work, whether you're working for uh, you know a political candidate or a campaign in the non-profit, the social impact space, or just even in the corporate world. You've obviously spent a lot of time thinking about this. You just wrote a book about this. What do you think is behind the cultural shifts that are happening right now, and what are some of the things that you're seeing and hearing as you're writing this book and just out there in the world?

Speaker 2:

So when we're in charge, it's really about the fact that in 2030, the youngest boomer is going to hit retirement age. We're already seeing now, per a new Glassdoor survey, millennials are now a majority of all managers. Gen Z makes up one in 10 of all managers. Fortune 500 boards and companies are passing off from boomer CEO to millennial CEO. They're skipping over Gen X entirely. Sorry to Gen X.

Speaker 2:

It is a lived reality that we're going to have a generational passing of power and I think it's going to look and feel very different. I think we've seen, of course, not all millennials, not all boomers, not all Gen Z. No generation is a monolith. Kavya had a side. Millennial leaders are showing up with a very different relationship to institutions, to mental health, to work-life balance, to transparency, to authenticity, to social media. They're thinking very differently about what is the responsibility of the workplace to the employer and what is the responsibility of the leader to model that, to model the kind of behavior they want to see.

Speaker 2:

And a lot of this came out, think or got maybe accelerated, or accelerated because of COVID.

Speaker 2:

I think the shift to remote or flexible work environments probably would have happened eventually anyway, but COVID really put gas on the fire in a way that meant that all of a sudden, you had all these executives trying to manage teams remotely or trying to manage flexible teams and not really knowing how to do that, and those who have grown up online, who have been cultivating friendships over the course of group chats, who have been on online forums, whether appropriately or not, since we were teenagers or younger, who sort of understand, like, which gifts are right to use in which moment and how.

Speaker 2:

Do I think about emoji as part of my communication style and what does it mean to show up over like a video chat and have executive presence? All of that comes more naturally, whether intentionally or not, when you've been doing it your whole life. I think much of that, along with all the other stuff I talked about, is why, as millennials take power, you're going to see the downstream effects in the workplace be very different, and then, as we talked about up top, when work sucks less, things open up more for you outside of it.

Speaker 1:

On that note, some of the fallout from the last election cycle. There was a lot of like Monday morning quarterbacking happening around. Oh, the left doesn't understand new media, and that was the Achilles heel that lost the campaign. Without getting into like all of that toxicity, I am curious to hear how you think about new media fitting in to these causes, to your cause, in a way that is responsible, and how much it is important to understand how culture is happening digitally if you're behind one of these missions right now.

Speaker 2:

So funny you use the term new media, because when I got started in politics 15 years ago, new media was like the name of the digital department and it's not new anymore. It's not new at all. And what I think is different right now and this is a challenge in particular for organizations, and they've been grappling with a lot is that organizations cannot really further a mission. A person can, a personality can, so perhaps an organization that has a really strong point of view or has a really compelling character may be able to advance an effort, but you kind of need a person. I think this was one of the challenges of 2024, which is that basically up until midway through the summer we didn't have a great person to tell the story and even after it got very messy very quickly for any number of reasons.

Speaker 2:

I think a lot about one of the reasons Run for Something has been able to succeed up until this moment is because I have put myself out there as a person telling a story but to operate a little bit like an influencer, a non-influencer.

Speaker 2:

I'm an operative and an executive. It's not the same thing, but thinking about like how to use my personal voice and my point of view to advance the organization's mission really thoughtfully, Even like the fact that I have a personal sub stack and I write about, like parenting and books and also politics. Yes, that's an intentional strategic choice as part of my communications efforts for the organization as well as for myself. If you don't have an executive who is comfortable putting themselves out there in that way, it can be really hard to break through in this media environment, because in this media environment you can't do a 45 minute podcast interview where you only talk about the organization or where you pivot it back to kitchen table issues. You have to be willing to be a person. We're in a moment where personality drives things, persona drives things. Brands don't really, unless they can find the persona within them. Does that make sense?

Speaker 1:

It totally does. You're thinking about this moment in culture, not even just politically, but if you're behind progressive causes it's not been a fun year and if you are doing this work professionally, it's been especially tough.

Speaker 1:

We work with a number of nonprofit organizations, some political organizations, some businesses who are very mission driven, and across the board people have felt. I've compared it at times to how it felt going into COVID, where everything just became contracted and paralyzed, and I'm starting to see some motion away from that at this point. I imagine you've had a tough year in your own ways.

Speaker 1:

Everyone has in a lot of ways. I'm curious to hear how do you keep going when things are hard and when things feel impossible or difficult? What is it that keeps you lit up and energized around the work?

Speaker 2:

Well, the work itself is really forward-looking. I'm very lucky and grateful that I sort of created a job for myself where I get to focus on the future. We've had more than 60,000 people sign up to raise their hands to say they want to run for office this year. That's more than we had in the entirety of Trump's first term. We're very close to it. We're going to probably exceed that number by September. It's huge, huge.

Speaker 2:

Those are people willing to change their lives and change their careers to ultimately change the world, and I'm just so grateful that they're willing to reach out to run for something, for the health to do it. I'm also very lucky that I have two very rambunctious children who, as you know, kids keep you grounded whether you like it or not, and that is very hard to think about the bad things happening in the world. When your toddler was screaming at you mama, help me tuck in my monsters. And the baby is just giggling, giggling, giggling, as second kids do. And the final thing I would say is like being really thoughtful about my news consumption. I read a lot of news, it's my job to read a lot of news, but I try pretty carefully to only drink the poison I have the antidote for, so I focus on stuff about the.

Speaker 1:

Democratic.

Speaker 2:

Party. I focus on congressional stuff, the races we work on. I read a lot about New York City politics because, as a New York City, voter.

Speaker 1:

I can do something about it.

Speaker 2:

But if you try and drown yourself in the flood of information every day, you will never get your head above water. And so being really careful like it's actually okay to not know everything going on at all times, as long as the things that you do know about that you can take action on, you do.

Speaker 1:

My podcast co-host, jonathan Hicken, who's an executive director at a nonprofit, has described this as knowing your sphere of influence and acting within that, and I think that is an interesting tie-in to what you're doing with Rome for Something, because it's been really a kind of like a seed sowing organization, the sense of like coming down, ticket up and growing off of that. How did you first come up with that strategy and like, how does that tie into your philosophy on this work?

Speaker 2:

So I worked for Hillary for two years got wrenching. About a week after election day, I started hearing from people I'd gone to high school and college with hey Amanda. I'm a public school teacher in Chicago. I'm thinking about running for office. If I want to do this, who do I call? What do I do?

Speaker 2:

And at the time, this was November 2016,. If you were young and you wanted to do more than vote and more than volunteer, there was nowhere you could go that would take your call. That, to me, felt like the symptom of really big problems both in the Democratic Party and in our democracy. So I reached out to a whole bunch of people with an idea what if we solve this problem? One of those folks became my co-founder, ross Morales-Riquetto.

Speaker 2:

We wrote a plan and we built a website and then we launched Run for Something on Trump's first inauguration day, thinking it'd be really small Thought. We'd get 100 people in the first year. Eight years later, 225,000 young people have raised their hands to say they want to run. We've helped elect more than 1,500 across 49 states plus DC, and there are at this point in 2026, there will be dozens of people running for higher office for Congress, for Senate, for Governor, for Secretary of State and Treasurer who have come through our pipeline, who are, I think, the present and future leaders of both our party and our country. It's really exciting to see that pay off big time.

Speaker 1:

Amanda, thank you so much for today. Before we wrap up, how would you like people to get in touch to support, to follow you? This is your time to plug anything and anything you want.

Speaker 2:

So I am all over the internet, either Amanda Littman or Amanda L-I-T-M on all the various social media accounts I post too much. You can find me on Substack, amandalittmansubstackcom, and you can get my book when we're In Charge, which is a real next generation's guide to leadership, Available wherever you get your books or on audiobook, ebook and hardback.

Speaker 1:

Awesome. Thank you so much, Amanda. This is great.

Speaker 2:

Thanks, eric, this was fun.

Speaker 1:

If you enjoyed today's video, please be sure to hit like and subscribe, or even leave us a comment. It really helps, thank you.

Speaker 2:

And thank you for all that you do for your cause and for being part of the movement to move humanity and the planet forward.

Contributor

Eric Ressler

Host
Contributor

Jonathan Hicken

Co-host