A Dentist, a Sausage, and a Student Loan Walks Into A Podcast

The loan bill hits before your handpiece warms up—and it’s bigger than your first apartment. We sat down with Dr. Alan Mead of the Very Dental Podcast to unpack the sticker shock of modern dental education, the real math behind associate versus owner income, and how to build skills that actually move your take-home. No five-step frameworks, just honest stories, practical tactics, and plenty of laughs to keep it human.

We start with the big question: is dentistry still worth it when new grads face $4–5k monthly payments? From there, we break down the critical early decisions—whether to chase ownership for upside or remain an associate and become indispensable. You’ll hear why leadership and communication pay as well as implants and endo, how to structure CE so it pays you back, and what case selection looks like when you need wins fast. We also talk about DSOs: why they can accelerate skill development and production, and how to spot the burnout traps before they grind your spark into dust.

Skill building is a theme throughout: stacking meaningful repetitions, documenting questions in real time, and cornering instructors until ambiguity dies. We share the value of curation—picking a clear clinical lane, aligning your systems and team, and letting focus become your competitive edge. Along the way, we swap dental school war stories, joke about dentists opening doomed restaurants, and remind ourselves that humor is a survival skill when the numbers get heavy.

Whether you’re a new dentist staring down a $500k note or a seasoned clinician wondering if ownership still makes sense, you’ll leave with a clearer playbook: pick a lane, get the reps, invest in communication, and let the value drive the income. If you’re ready to design a practice that buys back your time and sanity, subscribe, share this episode with a colleague, and leave us a review—then book a strategy call at dentalpracticeheroes.com/strategy.

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Transcript

Setting The Stage: A Different Format

Paul Etchison 0:59

All right, this episode is a little different. There's not going to be any sort of technical breakdown. There's no five-step framework. I'm not giving you like any sort of system deep dive. But what I am going to share with you is a conversation I had at Voices of Dentistry with Dr. Alan Mead. Now he's the host of the very now, he's the host of the Very Dental podcast, one of my favorite people in the dental industry. And if you don't know Alan, he's just so much fun to talk to. I mean, I don't know how he does it. He just always brings out the best conversations in people. So we had a really good conversation with him interviewing me. We talked about student loan debt. We talked about whether dentistry is still even worth it, ownership versus associates, CE overload, uh, what we would tell a brand new dentist who's starting at a$5,000 a month loan payment. Some of it's pretty serious, most of it is rather humorous. And man, it's just brutally honest. And it was so funny. I mean, I listened back on this episode and I laughed out loud so many times. So we work in this ridiculous profession, and sometimes I think we just need something for a little more lighthearted. So if you're a new dentist, you're gonna relate to this one really well. If you've been out for 20 years, you're gonna be nodding your head and cracking up too. Now, you're listening to the Dental Practice Heroes podcast, where we teach you how to create a team-driven practice that allows you to take off as much time as you want while still making an insane level of profit. Now, I'm your host, Dr. Paul Edgeson. I'm the author of two books on dental practice management, a dental coach, and the owner of a large five doctor practice in the South Suburbs of Chicago. Now, if you care about the future of your professional career and what it actually takes to build an amazing dental career that gives you everything you want, you're in the right place. And if you're looking for help with your own practice, please go to my website and set up a strategy call. That's dentalpracticeheroes.com slash strategy. All right, on to the interview with Dr. Alan Mead. Here we go.

The Case Against Video Podcasting

SPEAKER_00 2:46

Very dental people, welcome to another episode of the Very Dental Podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Alan Mead, coming to you uh in January, mid-70s in Gilbert, Arizona. You people, if you're not here, it's your own damn fault. Because, you know, we've talked about it, and I mean, maybe people in Arizona are tired of beautiful sunny weather in January. Maybe they'd like to go to, I don't know, ill Illinois, Michigan, you know, something like that. Enjoy the wind chill and all that. Well, the snow's pretty when it comes down. Yeah, for like a minute. And then turns down. One time a year, it's pretty, and then I'm like, I'm really more of this? Yeah, exactly. Welcome to the show, Dr. Paul Etchison. Paul, how are you doing? Hey, good, good to be here, man. So Paul spoke at VOD for the second time today. Um, he's been one of my favorite speakers here. Paul's one. I don't do you speak a lot like you do. That's what I thought. I don't. You know, you probably do about one or two a year. One or two years. You're like you're kind of naturally good at it. I've always known that. It's one of the reasons I wanted you to come back here. And but I mean, if you want to see what I'm talking about, he's got a podcast that he does. And now it's it's not only audio, it's video. Do you put it out on YouTube? We you know what?

Paul Etchison 3:57

It was audio and video, and we're actually back to just audio. Oh, really?

SPEAKER_00 4:01

But you you do Instagram stuff.

Paul Etchison 4:03

Yeah, we do do Instagram stuff, so we do like short video. So short use for promotional stuff.

Sticker Shock: Dental School Debt Reality

SPEAKER_00 4:07

If you want to do more of it, I mean that's no, it takes a lot of time. Video is like a thousand times more intensive to be today. Especially editing, yeah.

Paul Etchison 4:15

Yeah, yeah. So so we're not doing video anymore, but we're doing video of clips. But yeah. That is really okay.

SPEAKER_00 4:21

That's I didn't even realize I was gonna go that way, but that is interesting because I yeah, like if you've ever needed to convince me of not wanting to do video, you just did, right? Like, I I I don't want to do video, but everyone's like, oh, the world's going video. I'm like, look it's got time to I mean, we take this out and do it in person. Yeah.

Paul Etchison 4:37

I mean, that's tough.

SPEAKER_00 4:38

Yeah. Yeah.

Paul Etchison 4:39

For podcasts for dental.

SPEAKER_00 4:40

I'm not I'm not good looking enough to to draw video.

Paul Etchison 4:43

I think you're striking.

SPEAKER_00 4:44

Yeah. That's another reason I had Paul here. Yeah. Just too much. So, Paul, you you speak a lot on to practice owners and how to change that sort of thing. And so, knowing that's the case, they need to listen to your podcast, the dental practice heroes podcast. You do a lot of coaching, all that stuff. You talk, you you you speak a lot to the the owner. So, we're not gonna talk about that today. That's why I brought you over here. I want you, okay. So you're a dentist, you you know how to coach, you've seen a lot of this stuff. And okay, so uh last week I went to the University of Michigan dental school's website, and I'm like, okay, there's no way these kids are coming out with$500,000. And that that's the craziest thing I've ever heard. I looked at the University of Michigan's website for an in-state resident in Michigan, it's like more than$400,000 before before living expenses. And undergrad. Yeah, yeah. So the story is is like, yes, they really are. This is this is like the commitment that it takes for someone to become a dentist, the education, all the you know, the the cost to get into it. You're like, you graduated when? You said two thousand? Okay, two thousand nine and two hundred and thirty-five thousand. Okay, so just just if we're drawing the graph, I graduated in 1997 and I had$85,000 in debt. And you're you're into the 200s in 2009. So it adds up. Yeah. The story is there's a point where I mean, uh, clearly that uh inflation of cost is way higher than than the cost of everything else in the world. So and the other thing is that there's still people lining up to go to dental school. Yeah. So so as long as they can charge that that much, they're gonna charge that much. That's what we're talking about.

Paul Etchison 6:27

Well, you gotta wonder, too, is like when you were going to dental school or when you're doing undergrad, when people are taking out these loans, I mean, you're just a you're a young kid. You're just not you're not really putting the math together anyway. No, no. You're just thinking, like, this is what you do, this is what I'm supposed to do. And then you go so yeah, I wonder at what you're doing.

SPEAKER_00 6:44

Why remember you remember going to the the uh the what am I trying to say here?

Paul Etchison 6:50

The the It's been a long day. I was I was there. Yes, yes.

First Paychecks, Taxes, And Loan Pain

SPEAKER_00 6:56

The the uh when you go to the office for sign on sign on the dotted lines you're for your loans, it's the is the student yeah. I can't what what is the word I'm looking for? It's the it's the money that you get as a student for the the the uh FAFSA? Yeah, no, I'm just talking about what what do they call it, student aid or or or financial aid. God dang that was I literally had a stroke right in front of you. You remember it was so so yeah. Um when you go to the financial aid office, and literally you had like an operative practical in like 15 minutes, and you had to study for a biochem exam like in two days, and you had and you had lab stuff you had to get done. So you went to the financial aid office and you were they were supposed to explain to you something about and you're like, I've got a life to live, and you just sign on the dotted line. Yeah. Like one thing that I remember for sure is no one ever said, when you get out of dental school, the first day that you start drilling on teeth, you're gonna get a statement, and it's like four thousand dollars a month. That's the the stroke right now is four or five thousand dollars a month. And that's like before you've ever if if they had spelled that out for a day or for on your first day of dental school, you'd have gone, wait a second, maybe I don't that's a lot of money.

Paul Etchison 8:06

Almost like they should go and show you what taxes are and stuff too. Yeah, because I remember my first associateship, my guarantee was 100k. Yeah, and I was just like, I made it. Yeah, I'm here, yeah, I've arrived. Yeah, and then like paying my loans back, which it wasn't$4,000 a month, but it was like$2,200 a month. Still, um, yeah, there wasn't much left over. Yeah. And I'm like, where did all this money go? And I'm supposed to be, I'm a doctor, I'm supposed to be making good money. I'm an adult. Yeah, exactly. I'm adulting with a real job. That's yeah, you know what? There needs to be more education in it. Yeah, because at some point you know it's it doesn't make sense. And I think for a lot of people, like like, I mean, I'm I'm big on practice ownership. I don't think everybody should own a practice, but honestly, it gets hard to pay back a loan of that amount if you're gonna do that. That's what I'm saying. Like making successful owner income.

SPEAKER_00 8:53

I hear lots of people saying oh, they'll get they'll loan you money to do it because they know that dentists are a good bet. I'm like, and and that's probably right, but I'm like, man, that's gotta be that that tide's gotta be turning a little bit. It's gotta be like I I think that there's not a lot of failures on dental loans like that, but I mean maybe it's just you're coming out with a big yeah, and you don't have any proven, you know, you haven't proven that you can do this stuff. But I guess my point is that let's just pretend that we're not trying to tell people not to go to dental school. Right. Because I'm not necessarily doing that. Although I have to say, I'm not I'm not promoting it to my kids.

Paul Etchison 9:27

But that that's uh I was just thinking the same thing.

SPEAKER_00 9:29

If they wanted to, I would help them understand. Right, yeah. But I wouldn't say, boy, you really need to do this because I just feel like the um it's a little harder to justify the juice being worth the squeeze at this point where it was. But let's just pretend we're talking about relatively new dentists, they're minted dentists, they've got this big loan payment, and they've got it's too late. It's it's for the ones that's the name of this. That's the name of this episode. It's too late with Dr. Paul Etchison. It's actually so that but there's hope. That's what I want. What do you tell a new dentist in in how how to you know what what would you suggest they do to make it work?

Is Dentistry Still Worth It

Paul Etchison 10:08

Gotcha, you know, I I would I'm I'm first gonna say ownership, but like again, it's not for everybody. Build build skills because they're I mean, building your skills is what's gonna differentiate you and what's gonna make you become a better dentist. And if you're gonna run the o you're just gonna be the associate, that's cool too. I mean, but if you want to be the most highly paid associate you can be, be valuable. Yeah, you got to get out of bread and butter. Yeah, you got to do some other things, you gotta learn some other skills. And uh, you know, associate or owner, man, case presentation skills, communication skills, you're still gonna win. You know, you're still gonna, I mean, but that's all you can do. I I just wonder, man, when you're paying fifty thousand dollars in a principal payment a year, yeah, what is a comfortable life? Of I mean, how long do you pay that? I I don't know. And like you mentioned, I don't know if I'd recommend it to my kids. I recommend both my daughters. I say, I just whatever you want to do, just own a business. That's what I tell them. Interesting, own a business, own a business, um, find what you love, provide value, but I don't know if that's in dentistry.

SPEAKER_00 12:06

Yeah.

Ownership Versus Associate Income

Paul Etchison 12:07

Because dentistry scares me. But I'll tell you, I have I have a sitter that was watching my kids, and she's actually graduating from Marquette this year. She just invited me. I remember hearing about that. Yeah, she invited me to Hutter in this May. I'm really excited to go. I was like so like honored to VS. But she's she's we're gonna we're talking about like what should she be doing as an associate? What should she be getting out there and doing? And I'm telling her, giving her the best advice I can. But nonetheless, I mean it's still I I think we're reaching a breaking point where it's starting, people are starting to reflect and say, Man, I don't know if it's worth a squeeze on anything.

SPEAKER_00 12:36

One of the things that's so tough is that all the right answers for a new dentist to to get to up their skills are also expensive. Yeah, true. Yeah, in other words, you're like, oh, you need to go to Spear, you need to do coys, you need to. I'm like, shit, that is all that's a whole bunch of money too. And it's it's a whole bunch of money that they don't really have.

Paul Etchison 12:54

Well, I was a CE junkie, like just I mean, unbelievable. But then when I look back on it, it's like I took a lot as an associate, but I didn't start taking them. I had a course a month once I was an owner. Once I started having owner income, and like you could see like the value of it, and like you see like that you get to use it and it makes a big difference. Whereas for an associate, I mean it makes a big difference.

SPEAKER_00 13:13

You can do some new stuff for a new new dentist, is the scatter shot approach. Or like, yeah, I'll do a little I'll do a molar endo course here. I'll do well, I'll take a little Invisalign over here, and all of a sudden you've got a lot of skills that they're not whereas on some level, I would think this is just me. I mean, it's hard to know what you like until you've done it, because frankly, you get out of dental school, you've done almost nothing, you don't really know what you like. Yeah. Um, and it may take a little while for you to really know what you like. But if you find that there's something you like, go do a bunch of CE in that area. Yeah. So you hate so you actually build the skill instead of it's too expensive now to go and you know pay for courses to find out if you like it or not. That's what I took an I took an ortho, I took Litz Ortho continuum back in 2005, and and it was a great it's hours and hours weekend at a time. And what I learned is I didn't want to do ortho. That's what I learned. And it was a valuable lesson, but you know what I mean. You can't afford to do that now as a new dentist. You really can't.

CE Strategy Without Going Broke

Paul Etchison 14:14

It's just you know what I'm thinking about is that like endo. Okay, so molar endo, I started doing molar endo because I I worked in an associateship where the one of the senior docs is like, do it, you can do this, it's not that hard, we could do it. And I got to the point where I kept busting files and I said, I don't want to do this anymore. And he said, he said, don't be a pee. We're gonna keep doing this. Yeah, and I eventually learned to love molarendo, and I'm interested. I had the same experience with Ortho as well. Like, like my suggestion would be just it's gonna sound so bad, just pretend. Yeah, pretending that's okay too, dude. That's okay too. I'm saying I'm saying, you know, don't don't hurt people. You you guys know what I mean, but just try it. Try and um get out of your comfort zone. And when you get to the point where like you make a mistake or you have some kind of ambiguity around something, make sure you get that question answered. Because I think there's a lot of dentists that do that. I mean, what I used to do is I remember when I'd have an endo question, I'd think of something like, Well, why do we use EDTA after the hypochlorate or something like that? And I would put it in my phone. And then when I took like a course that was endo, when it was like, okay, we're gonna take a break, I was that guy going up to the speaker and be like, dude, what do you think about this? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, I never let there be an ambiguous ambiguity about anything. I wanted to have every an answer for everything.

SPEAKER_00 15:25

It's interesting too that the the thing that everything kind of does take reps too, and it's like and it's not just like I'm gonna do a couple reps, it takes a lot of reps, yeah. It takes a lot of reps, yeah. It does. Um, and in like endo is a classic example. It's like you kind of you do need to do case selection, but but the reality is you've got to do a bunch of it.

Paul Etchison 15:45

Well, the case selection too is is I worked with an associate and I love her, she's a partner now, and she was gonna try an endo, and I was gonna I was gonna be there. We're just waiting for that perfect one. Perfect one. Why not that one? No, it's it's a curve. No, I get it. There never was the perfect one.

SPEAKER_00 15:59

I'm kind of like that too, but the the reality is that that's really funny. Our in my area, all the endodontists have gone non-par. So the story is how it is by me, too. For for a lot of patients, it's like, well, uh, you got two options. Um, you do the endo here, doc, or I'm shucking the tooth. Because I I'm not gonna hand out I'm not I'm not handing them fifteen hundred bucks before the like my insurance has to cover this. And I'm like, this is uh But see, you got the microscopes too. I feel like I do I don't love endo, actually, but I have to say that like I can find the MB2 nine times out of ten. I just I just I'm just really slow at it. I'm really slow at it. Even with a scope, I'm slow at it. Yeah, at some point it doesn't make any sense. The reality is is I still probably don't have enough reps. The reality is, you know how you get faster at stuff? Yeah, you get good at it, but also do a lot of it. Do it more, like do a lot of it, have your and have your team know that's because endo is all about. I mean, is there anything worse than when when assistant sets up for endo and the patient doesn't come?

Paul Etchison 16:59

The only thing worse than that is when you're doing it in dental school and you don't have this and you can set it up yourself.

SPEAKER_00 17:04

Oh my god, like the setup for endo is like you could build a whole goddamn building here for the endo. Like, you need to have an endo, you need an endo uh operator. I'm like, yeah, but god dang, it's like but like reality is ortho is kind of the same way, you know. It's all you can't you can't go into ortho a little bit. Ortho's the best. I love ortho.

Paul Etchison 17:21

You got you gotta have you gotta have all the capacity to do this stuff, so yeah, it's a I I love the uh you know, and this is gonna make me sound like a curmudgeon, but I didn't I hated putting on the happy face for the new patients all day. Yeah, you know, eventually that just wore out on me, and then ortho, teenage band in bracket, you walk in the room like, hey, how's it going, buddy? How's it going, John? Good. Yeah. And then every now and then they challenge you with good, how are you? Yeah. Like, I'm good. Yeah. You don't have to do a lot of talking. That's right.

SPEAKER_00 17:49

They don't really want to, even if they don't really want to talk to you. That's exactly right.

Paul Etchison 17:52

And if you're in a talking mood, like you can throw some sometimes. Some kids want to talk and they're fun, but for the most part, it's uh it's not expected. Yeah, they don't walk out of that appointment and be like, wow, he was really unfriendly. Yeah. Hey, mom. Yeah, I don't know about this guy. He's quite unfortunate.

Skill Building, Reps, And Case Selection

SPEAKER_00 18:07

He's unfriendly, yeah. Not very kind to me. Exactly right. Okay, so getting back to what what were you gonna tell your uh your uh young dentist who's in the hole?

Paul Etchison 18:17

Well, I told her the same thing. I said you get skills, I said you gotta, you know, what do you find out what you like, find out if ownership's for you. But I mean, I I love saying ownership is not for everybody, but damn, I I struggle with the idea of um how do you how do you how do you make enough money?

SPEAKER_00 18:32

How would you yeah, that's exactly right. How would you uh if someone said, Okay, what why why is ownership so great? Why as a new as a young dentist, why would I like ownership? What's interesting is Eddie, you heard it from Robert Randy himself.

Paul Etchison 18:46

You know what's interesting is is we think about sometimes we always hear about these associates and they're just crushing it. They're like doing like two million a year, they're doing all in all in X cases and all this stuff, and you they're taking their 30% of their 2 million, which is 600k, which is an insane amount of money, and it's great, but damn, if that good person was on their own, it'd be the percentage would be way. Wow, you know, so it's like even to if if you can crush it, I I don't know. I don't have a good answer. I I really like that, but that's why I told her. I said, grow your skills, figure out what you want to do. If you want to own a practice, I'll help you. I do think there is well, you know what I would say? I I do think everybody it's not for everybody, but I think everyone could do it. Just like just like learning leadership, just like learning communication, just like learning a procedure. I think it's learnable, but you have to want to do it. Yeah, and I and you know, you know a lot of dentists. I mean, not all of us. I mean, we get to see people in the podcast already for me different.

SPEAKER_00 19:40

For me, I I might not have been like it's too late for me. I bought a practice in 1998. I probably wasn't the guy to do ownership. Like, there's there's parts of ownership that I still just fucking hate. But look at I mean how many years it's been.

Paul Etchison 19:52

I mean, you're doing it. I'm doing it. I'm sure you've got some pretty, but I'm doing it. I'm sure you have long-term team members that love working for practice. Yeah. And you've got patients that have been coming to you for decades.

SPEAKER_00 20:01

Yeah, I I mean, I literally know patients that were there. They were there when I bought the practice in 1990. Like on on Wednesday. I saw a guy that was there long term.

Paul Etchison 20:09

You'll give yourself more credit than you're giving.

SPEAKER_00 20:10

Yeah, I get it, but it's but I mean, like, on some level, there's there's points where like, man, it'd be nice to be an associate. I know you know you know that you know that there's plenty of people that have owned for a while that would kill to just be an associate. I would love to be a job. To be that guy who's doing two million as an associate is just that job doesn't affect me at all.

Paul Etchison 20:29

Let's have someone uh not my job.

SPEAKER_00 20:31

Yeah, not my wrong. I gotta go. It's it's fine. We'll see you. Bye. Yeah. I it is I I mean, I totally get that. And I'm just like, so they've gotten out of dental school. We've told them to build their skills. You say you need to maybe even before you go to dental school, you need to own a business. Tell me about tell me about that, and then tell me like if what kind of businesses would be smart and I'm not gonna say easy, but yeah, but but accessible. It's so hard. Because right, you know, owning a dental practice, you kind of have to be a dentist. Yeah, you kind of there's a lot of hoops to jump through to get there.

Paul Etchison 21:05

It's kind of makes it easier because it's a very limited, it's it's almost like uh it's almost like unionization to some extent.

SPEAKER_00 21:11

Yeah, dentists uh in most states, dentists are the only people that can own a dental office.

Paul Etchison 21:16

Yeah, so it's it's man, I struggle with that. I have no idea. I could not tell you. But I think it's you you find some issue, you find something you're solving, and you just you look at what your consumer needs, what they want, and how to just blow them away. And I think that's what we do in dentistry. And then you look at every element and you costs cut, you know, you look at expenses, but you're looking at making everything as most efficient as possible. And I think you could piece a lot of businesses together and make them work, but damn, i i it's it's hard to speak it from the background of dentistry because I mean, you know, it's what kind of dentistry is. They don't fail. I mean, even the really bad ones are still open. I mean, it's pretty hard to close your doors.

Endo And Ortho: Learning The Hard Way

SPEAKER_00 21:54

You know, if you if you if dentistry just wasn't an option for you, anyway. I'm trying to picture what so somehow um the state of the state of Illinois decided Paul's a menace to society. Pulled your license to be a dentist, pulled your license to own a dental office. In fact, you had a you had a uh you weren't even allowed to step 50 yards near a dental practice. You could not do anywhere near that's like being on a list. Yeah, it is. You are you know Paul is on the list now. So he what kind of business does Paul go to that's not dental related?

Paul Etchison 22:27

Wow, what do I do? Gosh, that's I mean it's it's so easy for me to say teaching products because I'm doing it in coaching, but yeah, you know, I I I think I truly have a passion for for scaring people. Like so, like I want to hide inside a trash can and just jump out and go, I feel like I feel like that'd be a sweet gig, man.

SPEAKER_00 22:45

You get paid 600 grand for that.

Paul Etchison 22:46

Well, just think of the exhilaration, and as you know, they're walking towards the crash, they don't even know you're there. I can't wait. I can't wait. Exactly. I mean, I don't think you'd have to pay me to do that. Yeah, I don't know if I can make this profitable.

SPEAKER_00 22:58

It's hard to make it profitable. What a great gig, though. What a great gig.

Paul Etchison 23:01

Gosh, I don't know, man. I can't think of anything.

SPEAKER_00 23:04

I mean, what would you do? Well, okay, I uh I love baking bread. Oh, I don't think bakeries are a profitable business. I just don't. I look at although although, okay, so there's a couple okay, there's a this bakery up up uh near where my parents have a cottage. We go up north there. Yeah, it's in Roger City, Michigan. It's the most it's so adorable, it's just it almost makes you sick. It's so adorable. It's called the Trade Winds, and it's been there for a thousand years. And if you want the good baked stuff, you gotta get there early. Like on a Saturday morning, you'd best be there by about seven. They sell out every day. Yeah. And you're thinking to yourself, they sell out every day. They must be doing okay. And they're they've been there for a while. So I but I don't know that I don't know that the I the owner doesn't have a Lambo in the back. Let's just say yeah.

Paul Etchison 23:49

So well, you know what, like by my lake house in also in Michigan, yeah, in Sturgis, Michigan, there's a place called Yoders. Okay. And it's just got all a bunch of prepaid. But pre-made food.

SPEAKER_00 23:59

Yoder is probably the most Amish name in the entire world for sure.

Paul Etchison 24:03

Yeah, Amish. It totally is, yes. And um they sell donuts, same thing. If you don't get those, get there early, you're not getting them. But they have bread, they got uh deli, they've just got so many different things. They got pickled everything. Anything you could pickle, they've pickled it. And it's a really interesting store, but it's one of those places that it's it's a you know what I would say? Curation. I would say that's what I would, whatever it would be, it's like it's like the Yoders. Everything they have is fantastic. Just like if you had if you had a bookstore, they made it consciously that way.

SPEAKER_00 24:31

In other words, it's not like it's not like they've got like three items that don't sell and just molder on the side. They're not gonna they're curating to to only have the stuff that they want to get.

Paul Etchison 24:41

That's how you compete. I mean, you think about like a bookstore, like a small there's a small bookstore in my town, and it's like it's curated. Like they know like that they only hold certain books. Now, I don't go to this place, but I mean I'm I'm still an Amazon person, you know. But how do you compete with something that has everything? Curation.

SPEAKER_02 24:57

Yeah.

Paul Etchison 24:57

So I think whatever it would be, yeah. And I think that's what we're talking about. It's gotta be some kind of specialized. You can't just there's gotta be something special. There's gotta be something that makes a difference.

The DSO Question And Burnout Risk

SPEAKER_00 25:05

Yeah. Same town, Roger City. Is a uh is it it's it's not Kowalski's, it's uh a big Polish name. What's the ski? Yeah, it's a something ski. And they've got they've got uh they've got multiple stores. They got one, one in Alpina, one in Roger City, and you go in there, first off, they've got all the sausages in the entire world. Like they've got the Bratwurst, they've got but they've got all these things. They've got Italian, they've got Greek, they've got they've got Cuban. Cuban, like, and this is Roger City, Michigan. But they've got all these, and and you know they make them locally, that's the whole thing. So they've got a freezer full of them. So you can go in there, you can get you can buy any kind you want. You can but but here's the thing that gets me to go in there every time I'm in Roger City. They'll have a they'll have a hot pot with with four or six different different sausages, you know, cooked for the day, and they've got you know, they've got a bun. And we're talking that do you know what you're getting? I mean, I I've got a a hierarchy where I would choose. Depends on what they're doing. I mean the hot pot, is it like this is the sausage, or is it like random sausage? No, it's fries. There'll be they have a little a little uh dry erase board where they've labeled which sausages are they'll have six different options, and if you're lucky, the one that you want is already cooked. But you know, some days they don't they don't cook all anyhow, right? And they've got all the all the condiments you could ever want in the whole world. You get too many con you couldn't do all of it because you'd wreck it. So you have to be, you know, you have to curate your condiments. Yes. And they've got potato chips and they've got you can get they've got all kinds of different soda and you go in there, and it's like it's like$2.99 for the sausage. And so you can get out of there for lunch for five bucks. Wow. It's in an old gas station, like a gas station that like from Back to the Future 50.

Paul Etchison 26:42

This must be like a Michigan thing, because by my lake house in Michigan, there is a very similar store and they sell it a hundred different bratworks.

SPEAKER_00 26:48

Yep. But um what they want you to do is they want you to buy the frozen stuff and take it home. They're probably not making a ton on I figured three bucks for a sausage in all the condiments. They can't be doing that well. But I won't I won't go into Roger City without going in there. And sometimes I leave with a sweatshirt, and sometimes I leave with some brat works, and I'm like, Yeah, and I gotta figure the rent's gotta be next to nothing on that old gas station. It's cool in there, too, by the way. It's really cool. Yeah, I'm like, if I were gonna do a business, the part of it is it's almost like this business is so specifically weird and cool. Um it's like I'm doing this out of spite. It's this cool, you know. Like, yeah, like this, and I I always think, boy, this should do great in you know, fill in the blank time. I'm like, maybe, but probably not. Because I don't know how much you can make selling sausage, but I know people that would drive a ways to go there. Yes, it's special, it's different.

Can Every Dentist Learn Ownership

Paul Etchison 27:38

It's it tends to be tourist towns that can kind of pull that off too a little bit. It's almost like uh you take any sort of business, and you you know, it's like I I have my dental office and it went really well, and there's the I think of a lot of us dental owners like, man, I'd love to try in another business. I'm a businessman. Yes, yes, and I think some of us, and I think possibly me, would fall flat on my face sometimes. I mean, the margins in dentistry are so good, I don't know what it is on a on a bratwurst or a sausage, but I mean I you know what though, I would not want to play the the price game. I would want I would want to be premium service, less sales, more uh high touch, high touch FaceTime kind of thing.

SPEAKER_00 28:16

I know Anthony Bourdain in his the book that he got famous for, which is called Kitchen Confidential, the stories from the culinary underbelly, which is a freaking great book. I've never read it. You can read it, that's fine. Get the audio book because he narrates it, and that is a thousand times better. He talks about there's an entire chapter about dentists buying restaurants because they were good, just what you said, they're good in dentistry. First off, dentistry actually, you said it earlier. It's kind of a great bit, like it's hard, it's hard not to do well in dentistry. I mean, like, yeah, but there's some of us that can do that, but it you can do pretty well in dentistry, and and and the dentists like to open restaurants because they're like everyone said you I I throw really good parties, so I should and and so Bourdain has an entire chapter about how bad the and he literally he literally like lists how the how the the the restaurant fails and how the dentist gets more and more desperate and they just are shoveling money into it left and right, is which is so funny that you said that.

Paul Etchison 29:11

That's when you start hosting like Battle of the Bands. Exactly, exactly.

SPEAKER_00 29:17

Exactly, exactly. And then and and so in some way you're like your point about well, I you know, I know dentistry well. I'm not sure that I would do that well in another business. That's a very good point. You know, Costa started with food trucks. Well he did pizza, I think, too. Yeah, I'm just thinking to myself, God, that's guts, man. And then I think he hit he came to dentistry. He said, Oh, this is easy compared to food truck.

Paul Etchison 29:36

Yeah, I'm sure it was a good like training for him. Like, yeah. Well, it's like when I when I was my associateship, we were Medicaid and HMO and we were getting 250 a crown. Yeah. And I went to like the worst PPO possible and I was getting 500. I'm like, this is the best thing that ever happened.

SPEAKER_00 29:50

That's great.

Paul Etchison 29:51

Gosh, that's so funny. It's so funny. And then after a while, five, yeah, there wasn't enough.

SPEAKER_00 29:54

Yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, that's you gotta prep a lot of crowns to keep up, man. Yeah, especially if you got you know if you got five thousand dollars in loan payments. Yeah, that's the I do have to say I'm not I'm not sure how it I mean I think um DSOs can employ young dentists in a lot because as a young dentist, you can kind of hit the ground running at a at a lot of these DSOs you can really produce. They're gonna they're gonna give you the patience to work on and stuff. But it's I I I worry more that it's they're gonna grind their soul into dust. You know, because it's like when you're working that hard that young and not you know not seeing the all the benefits necessarily. I don't know. I mean, like, because there's not a lot of private offices that can offer that kind of an associateship. There's some, I'm sure.

Paul Etchison 30:36

But but I mean it's hard for a dental student right out. I'd done like grads and I don't do it anymore. I don't have a stomach. Yeah, oh, as associates. Yeah, they're I mean, they're just too slow. Yeah, I don't know if it's the schools in Illinois, but it's uh No, it's the schools everywhere. Yeah, that's what I kind of figure.

If Not Dentistry, What Business

SPEAKER_00 30:51

I mean, I remember coming out in 1997 and feeling like, and my dad graduated in 1968 and says, You guys just didn't get very much clinical experience at all. And I'm thinking to myself, compared to what now, 1997, we were kings, man. We get we did all kinds of stuff. I remember when I first day I worked at my dad's office as an associate, I did more amalgams in that day than I had in dental school. Yeah, like the whole time to take boards and everything.

Paul Etchison 31:16

I remember when I did my first, I it was one event, it was an interview for my associateship, and they said, I said, mention something, I'm faster than most students. Yeah. I've heard that from like just brought applying associates in my own. I've asked her, and they said, like, well, how fast? And I'm like, well, what do you mean? They're like, Well, how long does it take you to do class two? I'm like, I don't know. They're like, 30 minutes? I'm like, yeah, I could probably prep it in 30 minutes. That's so like dead serious. That's so awesome. I'm dead serious. Yeah, that's that's like lightning, man. Yeah, right. But that's what I thought. No, I know, because we didn't know anybody. Well, I was comparing it to the the person in the booth next to me, the operator next to me, that was taking two hours.

SPEAKER_00 31:54

Yeah, no, I'm I remember that too. Remember, there was no appointment shorter than three hours at the University of Minnesota, so it didn't matter what you needed. It was at least three hours. Exactly, exactly. I'm doing a class one amalgam. Three hours. Yes, three hours. And with me, that might have taken three hours just for the anesthesia, to be honest. There were complications. Yeah, I remember the best was when you're doing a class one amalgam and you had to temporize it and bring them back the next time. You got the prep done. Yeah, exactly. I'd love to say that that didn't happen, but I'm certain that it didn't. And these poor people that we worked on thought they were getting such a deal. But they we should have paid them. Yeah. And and yeah, I remember at the University of Minnesota, it was not that much less expensive to go. I'm thinking to myself, you know, not only are you paying almost as much as regular office, every appointment is three hours. Yeah, you need a full set of x-rays, three hours.

Paul Etchison 32:42

My first case was a like 33-year-old guy that needed dentures. And I didn't even know what an immediate denture was back then. We took out his teeth and he healed for four months.

SPEAKER_00 32:51

Yeah, yeah.

Paul Etchison 32:52

He was 33.

SPEAKER_00 32:53

I I had a guy, I had a guy who uh same exact thing. It was gonna work out better for him to just heal. And uh he said, Well, I'm a French horn player. Is it gonna affect is it gonna affect the way I first off Yes! Yes, it is. I tried to think of like that's like the buzz thing. As brass players, French horns have the like the tightest embouchure. Yeah. And and he came back after two months after he said, you know, I'm better. Really?

Paul Etchison 33:18

Maybe you don't need dental. You have to like motorboat it or the little thing.

SPEAKER_00 33:21

Yeah, exactly. That's exactly what you're doing. And I'm just I just remember in I'm like, I'm a dental student. I don't know anything. You're asking me if this is gonna I don't know anything. But yes, it would for sure.

Paul Etchison 33:30

It would definitely be more of a percussionist. That's right. Just beaten. It doesn't matter if you have teeth or not. Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_00 33:36

It doesn't matter if you have teeth or not. Well, I don't know that we've helped any new dentists here. I don't know. I don't think we did it all, but I I really like having you on this show. You know what?

Paul Etchison 33:44

I think they should um I think they should pray about it.

SPEAKER_00 33:46

Yeah. As much as you can. And honestly, the earlier in dental school that you do it, the better. For sure. For sure. That's the advice we give. Yeah. Pray thoughts and prayers. Thoughts and prayers. Read your your uh student loan information before you start dental school, preferably. Don't forget about Stur Devant's art and science of dentistry. Exactly, exactly. Sturdevant. Remember, I always I I I had a hard time deciding whether or not I was gonna buy the book. I bought all the books. Nobody else did. Yeah. I was such an idiot. I was I was like, like by the time we gotten to the point, I'm like, well, do you buy it? They never tested out of the book. Never. Didn't need it. And it's not the kind of thing that I think looks particularly good on a bookshelf as a dentist. Mine was green. Yeah. I don't remember what color. Mine was blue. I do remember it's blue. It was dark blue, and it had like gold trim around it. And you opened it, you thought this is going to be a really helpful book, and I never read a damn thing.

Paul Etchison 34:35

Yeah. I sold a lot of mine. I bought them on eBay and then I sold them on eBay, which was actually pretty good because you almost like sold them, sell them for exactly for them.

SPEAKER_00 34:43

I bought them new.

Paul Etchison 34:45

I probably never even crashed eBay back half of that. I think eBay was selling lighthouses back then.

Curation As A Business Advantage

SPEAKER_00 34:49

Exactly. That's right. They they had a used book market, but it was really funny. You'd bring them back used and they'd give you nothing. Yeah. They'd just give you nothing for it. I and and you buy them new, they're hundreds of dollars and they'd give you next to nothing. You're like, well, for as little as I'm gonna get, I'm just gonna keep them, which is an investment. Yeah, it is an investment. Like invest in yourself. I just my my parents, I'm not this is not even kidding. My parents gave me a bunch of books from from college that they have a bunch of college books, and I didn't I thought, well, are they looking through the no, no, no, no. They had to uh they're they were having electrical problems and they had to move their refrigerator. They had one's big sub-zero, they had to move their refrigerator, and they had a couple things kind of on top of it so you could see they're sort of decorative. They used my books to stack the stuff on top of their refrigerator, and so so they found these books that's just dusty as hell and everything. Here you can have these. I'm like, oh, I see, because you're not putting anything on top of your refrigerator. I get it. So yeah, so they're like, oh yeah, you can show your boys.

Paul Etchison 35:44

I'm like, or I can throw them out. Well, I have so like my my original office, like the doctor office at my practice, I moved to a new place, but I left the bookshelf in there, and that's my associate's office. Yeah. Um, maybe about four or five weeks ago, all my books were sitting in my office, and they want me to take them home or throw them away. Yeah, and I just I don't know what to do with them. Yeah, I just can't read them. I can't part with them. I'm not gonna read them. I didn't read them back then. I didn't read them then. I'm not reading them now. I'm not doing it, but I can't throw them away.

SPEAKER_00 36:11

Yeah, they're they're valuable. I'm throwing them away. I don't think I'm throwing them away.

Paul Etchison 36:15

I think I gotta throw away.

SPEAKER_00 36:16

I don't even think I could recycle them. They probably wouldn't even recycle well for crying out. That's the whole story. I take them in the recycling, so we don't want them here. We do not want them here. Yeah. Oh my God. That's good. Paul, thank you for coming to Voice of the Dentistry 2026. Very good. And before you guys leave, go listen to Paul's podcast. He's an excellent podcaster. He knows what he's doing. It is the Dental Practice Heroes podcast. He does, if you're a practice owner, probably worth your time to check out his coaching. And honestly, he there's a lot of free resources. You can take him for all these tons of free resources.

Paul Etchison 36:45

Tons of free resources. If you want to have a better practice, you want to have more fulfillment in your life, more time, more money. We teach you how to run that sort of practice. That's where we're all about practice ownership.

SPEAKER_00 36:54

And you can kind of get a sample by listening to episodes of the podcast because you kind of give a little of that goodness away. A little at a time on the podcast. Not too much. Yeah. Not too much. You gotta keep them hungry for it. You know, that's how it works. But yeah. Paul, you're the best. Thanks for being on.