5 Creative Marketing Ideas That Actually Work (And Most are Free)

Feeling like you've run out of marketing ideas? This episode is full of creative, low-cost ideas that actually work — real strategies they've used to bring in patients without discounting or outspending the competition. You'll learn how to get new patients without spending more on ads and why the best strategies are free.

Topics discussed:

• Creative marketing ideas that work
• Marketing strategies that cost no money
• The unexpected moves that build patient loyalty and get new patients
• Marketing fails (and strategies to avoid)

This episode was produced by Podcast Boutique https://www.podcastboutique.com

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Transcript

The Google Spend Problem

Paul Etchison 1:55

Are you spending thousands of dollars each month on Google? And those new patients, they still feel inconsistent. And you're like, dude, what am I even spending this money on? There's a good chance you might have a problem that could be addressed and should be addressed. You see, most dentists are running the same exact three plays Google Ads, SEO, and we're hoping that the schedule just holds itself together and all we can do is just throw more dollars at it. And sometimes that turns into this sore area of practice management that we don't focus on too much, but we should be because it is foundational to the growth of our practice. So today we are talking about the marketing stuff that actually works. Real creative marketing ideas that bring patients in because they want to come to your practice and not because you discounted your exam or you just outspent the guy down the street. Now you're listening to the Dental Practice Heroes podcast, where we teach you how to build a team-driven practice that gives you freedom, control, and an insane level of profit without burning yourself out. I'm your host, Dr. Paul Etchison, author of two books on dental practice management, dental coach, and the owner of a large five-doctor practice in the south suburbs of Chicago that has collected over$6 million a year. Now, if you want your practice to grow because of the way that you take care of patients organically through referrals and efficiently because of your systems, you are in the right place. Today for this episode, I am joined once again by the DPH coaches, Dr. Henry Ernst, owner of an 18 operatory practice in North Carolina, and Dr. Steven Markwitz, the owner of six practices in the Boston area. Now, these guys live out what Dental Practice Hero teaches every day in their own practices, and they are helping dozens of dentists become better practice owners, have more success and more fulfillment in their lives. All right, let's dive in. You know, we don't talk much about marketing here, and there's a lot of questions about marketing because we're all looking for more new patients. We're all looking for ways to grow our practice, but sometimes it seems like there's just not much out there. And in reality, there's a lot of creative ways that I think can get you some patients. So we thought it would be helpful. Let's talk about a few creative ways to get some new patients and just creative ways to market because some out-of-the-box things. I'm gonna go to you first, Steve. Does anything creative come to mind for you?

Dry Cleaner Partnership And Saver Plan

Steve Markowitz 4:15

I don't know if it's creative, but when you first open your practice, you're like, you'll do anything. Yeah. So we were in a small four-op practice. We moved it down the street to a larger nine-op practice, and in that strip mall, there was a Dunkin' Donuts. And before work, we were just opening. It was like week two. We were just opening, and I went to grab a coffee. And the woman in front of me was like scrambling for change. And I was like, You mind if I just pay for that? I sat, that just got me thinking. And I literally sat in that Dunkin' Donuts all day. I gave my credit card to the cashier and I said, put a thousand dollars on that. And I was the creepy guy in the corner, and I paid for I don't know, maybe a couple hundred. And you just sat there all day? I sat there all day, and I just said, Hey, I'm Dr. Markowitz. We just opened a practice right down the hallway. I just want to introduce myself. And if there's if there's ever anything that we can do for you, just know that that we're here in town and I'm excited to meet as many people as I can. We probably had 50 people walk over and just sign their name and and become patients.

Paul Etchison 5:17

Wow. That's awesome.

Steve Markowitz 5:19

The reason why I enjoy sharing that story is when you're opening a business, you have to do some crazy stuff to put yourself out there and get really uncomfortable. I think that if you're willing to do that kind of stuff, there's no stopping that you'll be successful.

Paul Etchison 5:35

I love that. And you know, I'm picturing you sitting in the corner of Dunkin' Donuts and just every time they say, the guy right over there, he paid for it. Like you just put up, you do one of those waves where you don't move your hand and you just do the finger thing. You're like, huh, hi. Hey there.

Steve Markowitz 5:49

It started really awkwardly and like, yeah, and it was doing like this. And then by the end, I thought it was like mayor. I was the mayor of town. I'm like, hey, I get your coffee. Come here.

Community Gifting And Sign Spinners

Paul Etchison 5:58

Let's let me take you to the dental office. Hey, you get around for the whole place. That's how they talk on the East Coast. I get a pastrami sandwich. Yeah, yeah, okay. I think it's a great idea. You know, when when we opened up, we did a big inflatable dinosaur. Yep. And like one of those ones you rent them, the places like you'll see them in front of like the used car or just like car dealerships and stuff. That was a good way of getting some visibility to it. But you know what? I just spoke to someone the other day, and I don't know if this person made the trip just for this, but they went to China and they brought back like 600 electric toothbrushes and they gave them to every single new patient. Cool. And it just generated a ton of buzz of the giving and they're like decent toothbrushes, probably like some like off-brand, like no-brand something. But still, I thought it was a really cool idea. Henry, anything that unusual that you tried that's worked well?

Free Care Stories That Travel Online

Henry Ernst 6:52

Yeah, so there's a few of them, but I can tell maybe the one that was outside the box when we first started is I remember when we first started, somebody was watching one of these marketing things, not dentistry, but just talking about dry cleaners. How people who go to dry cleaners are usually the type of people that care about the way they look. They usually have money because you know, dry cleaning is expensive to dry clean your clothes. So the thing that we did outside the box was I came up to the dry cleaners. We have a dry cleaners in our shopping center, two doors down. So I came up to them one day. They're a really nice couple, they work hard all that time, they're there all the time. And I basically told them, listen, we have we are opening up new next door, and we have even from the day one, we had a dental savers plan, which a lot of practices have nowadays. That's basically where, you know, you pay one fee, you get two cleanings, you get all your hygiene visits and stuff like that, and you get a discount. So I basically told them, I said, listen, how about I give you a dental savers plan for you? And they have two daughters, you and your kids there, and you have it, and all I'm asking for you is we're gonna make these little placards, and I just want you to put it on all the dry cleaning when people leave. And they said, sure, that's great. So basically it was just like a little thing that just introduced us, and we're open. Our mantra for the practice was always to try to stand out from what everybody else is doing. So our mantra to this day is we're open in the evenings, we're open on Saturdays, don't miss school or work to come to the dentist. So it had that, and it had our phone number on it. It was just really simple. So for like a couple of years, that's they handed that out, and I just gave them the dental savers plan, which probably cost me like$1,200, right? That produced a lot of patience because we had a special number on those splacards so we could actually measure it. So that did really, really well and was 100% outside the box.

Charity Checks And Social Momentum

Paul Etchison 8:33

That's cool. I mean, you guys ever did like a sign spinner? Never did a sign spinner. What's a sign spin? Some guy like in like a tooth costume spin a sign.

Steve Markowitz 8:41

They do that for like sub places. You Oh, yeah, yeah. No, I what does he spin? Like a tooth?

Paul Etchison 8:45

No, well, it's just a sign.

Henry Ernst 8:46

It uses it for like sub places, like or stuff like that. I don't think I've ever seen it for a dentist's office. That'd be kind of weird.

Paul Etchison 8:52

Have you done that, Ball? No, I I mean I just popped in my head. I wonder. I mean, it's a little hokey.

Steve Markowitz 8:57

Sounds like you've done it. I think no, I think you've done it. It's okay. You can share.

Paul Etchison 9:00

I've been in the costume. I could spin a sign. Another one that works well, I feel like a record, baby.

Create Moments Patients Must Share

Henry Ernst 9:06

We did this maybe a year or two out of practice, but I feel like we could have done it earlier. Is we we went online and we asked for stories. Like, give us a story of somebody who really needs dental help. Give us their whole entire story, right? And we received so many of them. And I remember one, the person who we ended up picking two, but we just did somebody's dental care for free. And it was like one story of some guy, and his son was a special needs, never had time for himself, and he needed like a lot of dental work. So we kind of said, we'll do your dentistry, but all we're asking is to share your story, right? So, you know, what did it cost us? It cost us time, lab fees, and maybe if you're a starting practice, it's a good place to start. You can get your assistants trained because it's a comfortable environment. But we shared the heck out of that story on social media. We boosted it, and it kind of hits an emotional tone where look at this story. Look what we did. You're the practice that did this, right? It's really not supposed to be doing it for the marketing, we're doing it to help somebody, but it's a win-win.

Micro-Delights And Personal Touches

Pizza Referral Rewards With Partners

Paul Etchison 11:27

We got a lot of good results out of that. We've done that as well, and we've probably done like probably done that like five or six times. And you always want to get that great reaction at the reveal. You want them to cry, like, God damn it, won't you cry? Just cry. And what I've realized is that if you get the camera phone in, you put it in front of them, and then you hand them a mirror, it doesn't work as well as if you set up like a hidden camera. And so we had this one where we set up the camera in the corner and she lost it, and it was so beautiful. And but what's weird is we did the same thing as you, Henry. We've never shared it, we never used it. But what pops in my mind is a similar thing, and we did this on social media. Every quarter we were giving away like$500,000 to a local charity. And the way that you won is you had to tag your favorite local charity on your page, and whatever charity was tagged the most on that post. We had them come in and they they we had a big check printed out, like was it one of those ones you write on? And that was great. I think that was a great way to give publicity, and it was for a really good thing as well. So there's opportunities there that probably are much better for your marketing spend than pay-per-click on Google.

Steve Markowitz 12:40

100%. I also wanted to add, like, you need to look every day in your practice. There are opportunities to create a moment that's gonna make someone want to tell their friends and family. And it could be something as simple as like, there's a sweet old woman who talks about she wants honey. And then we can go out and next time she shows up, we grab her a little bit of honey. And then that's what she's gonna remember. Or a guy who comes every, I can remember this story. I had a crown that I don't know. I could not get this thing to see. I felt like every single time, and it was probably his third time, and I'm like, I told him and when I was doing the second time, I go, This next one doesn't fit. I'm buying you a 12 pack. What's your favorite beer? And then I just had the 12 pack there sitting there. And he could have been super pissed, because I know I would have been, but he's sitting laughing, being like, I can't believe you got me a 12-pack of beer. This is hysterical. So when I would recommend when it comes to marketing, it's don't think of marketing just as how much am I spending on SEO, how much am I spending on Google Ads. Marketing, it could be every single thing. And on your PL, when you look at it, there should be part of that marketing spend that is your brand, that is creating a better patient experience, that is looking for opportunities to buy that sweet old lady of a thing of honey, or buy the guy who wants a troll pack, or whatever it is that that's gonna create those moments that's gonna lead to them having to share that. You'll never believe what my dentist did for me today, because that's gonna get you to be the place where people just go in town.

Social Without Dancing Or Trends

Paul Etchison 14:11

When you gave the old lady the honey, was it like you handed her a jar or were you like Winnie the Pooh, like scooping it out with your hand and like that wasn't actually me.

Steve Markowitz 14:19

That was that was one of the doctors that worked for us.

Paul Etchison 14:21

I actually like licking it off your gloves.

Steve Markowitz 14:24

For me, I would have put it on the tip of my glove and I would have had her lick the honey. That's what I would have done.

What Flopped: Coupons And Mailers

Paul Etchison 14:29

But a little weird. Let me put this on your lips, right? That's how I do the chapstick in my office. I apply it with my finger. Yeah, I know. Circles.

Steve Markowitz 14:39

That's why I show up so often. So it's it's such an interesting experience. But again, the point of me sharing it is there are so many opportunities that patients want. Their patients are showing you and giving you chances to show how much you care about them and just go that extra little bit, and it doesn't cost a lot.

Sorry Gifts And Follow-Up Calls

Paul Etchison 14:58

I've been making notes in the patient chart like what they wanted to watch last time. Like some people want to flip it on ESPN, and some people want to watch, like, you know, the home or you know, HGTV stuff like that. I think that's always cool. Yeah, for sure. You know what? One of the promotions we did I loved was in our strip mall, we've got a pizza place, and I just walked on there and said, Hey man, would you sell us discounted like large pizzas if we gave them to every patient? Or we gave them to patients who actually sent us a referred somebody. So we would send them a card. And I know people are gonna go, well, you can't do that in my state. Oh, come on, dude. Who's gonna get you in trouble for that? I don't know. Maybe that's bad advice. But anyway, check your state laws and you check an attorney before you buy a patient of pizza. But every month, like the owner of this pizza place would just bring these coupons back to me, and I would just pay, I think it was like seven bucks a pizza or something like that. Might have been six dollars a pizza, and they got a free pizza, but no one orders just a free pizza. And if you're a restaurant man and you're like a new pizza place, you want to get your name out there. I don't care what what you are, if it's free pizza, free large pizza, there's no way people aren't gonna take you up on it. So, like, there's a lot of win-wins in your community that you can find to give things out that really don't cost you very much at all. And I think they're way more valuable than like a five-dollar Duncan card. I don't know. Not to talk crap about what you did, Steve. That was so generous of you when you're creepy man in the corner.

Steve Markowitz 16:15

I heard it loud and clear.

Veterans Day Care As A Tradition

Paul Etchison 16:16

See, not everyone's comfortable being creepy man in the corner. I mean, you've probably lived half your life that way.

Henry Ernst 16:21

Steve is a hundred percent comfortable by being the creepy guy in the corner.

Paul Etchison 16:25

Yeah, yeah. Sometimes he faces out of the corner, sometimes he's facing in it.

Steve Markowitz 16:30

A friend of mine that I didn't go to high school with somehow saw my high school yearbook and just was texting me pictures of uh like my yearbook, my senior yearbook. And yes, Henry, for years I've been that creepy guy in the corner. I tell people I'm always the before picture in one of those.

Paul Etchison 16:48

Yeah, that's a good way to put it. I love that. That's great. So, yeah, so cool, you know, great marketing ideas. There's so much we can do on social. You don't have to be an influencer, you don't have to go and share what you're you're eating, you don't have to do all the trends and stuff like that. I remember when TikTok came out, there was that dentist and he was doing that dance. And oh, he's so he's so hot. Oh my God, look at him. Oh, these goddamn. And then my team's like, you should do a TikTok. I'm like, I am not doing that. Everybody's team in the country said, You ought to do this too. Yeah.

Steve Markowitz 17:18

Have you guys ever had any marketing fails? Like, what's been your biggest ones?

More Misses: Groupons And Discounts

Paul Etchison 17:22

Marketing fails. Oh, my, you know, I would say a big fail for me was doing postcards, mailers, but doing like the really cheap save ones, this little tiny ones, or that little the cheap booklet with the coupons. I yeah, they didn't do crap for us.

Bonuses Beat Discounts For Trust

Smart Startup Cashflow Offers

Henry Ernst 17:37

And I know based on our our premise today, just like what's outside the box here. I just had a few other ones, and some of these we don't think about, right? One thing that we do in the office is maybe something similar to what you were talking about, Paul, is we give sorry gifts, right? No matter how good our prices are, we screw up stuff sometimes. And we have a local car wash that's right up the street. They give us a deal on them, we buy like a whole bunch of them. So we've already got cards ready. So we screw up on something like we own it, right? People always want to hear, I'm sorry, but you know what? I'm sorry, it doesn't make up for it. But here's a car wash, right? And we oftentimes we'll get people who take pictures at the car wash and like attaches to it, say, look what my dentist gave to me, right? So the sorry gifts are really important. I think that's one thing that we don't think about. I would also say this is calls. I've done this a few times in my career. We call every patient that has root canal, extraction, implants, sedation, and we just call them. I just check on them, right? Uh a couple years ago, I called and my patient said, Oh, yeah, I'm doing great. And she told me the next time that I got you tuna patients. I was sitting at a dinner party and two people were sitting next to me and they said, Who is that? My dentist, what? Your dentist calls you? Right. So it's like, gosh, that was pretty dumb, right? But that was like just loyalty got me patients. I didn't spend a dollar by just calling that patient. So if you're not doing that already, call your patients. I'm telling you, patients will talk about you that you have like, you know, you're the kind of person that will call them just to check on them, right?

Paul Etchison 19:05

Do you ever ask them when they answer? Be like, hey, uh, where are you at? Do you mind if you put me on speaker? I haven't done that one, Paul. Have you done that? Is that your mono? No, I don't even call them. I'm terrified of phone calls. I don't want to speak to people.

Track And Call The “Nothing Found” Patients

Henry Ernst 19:18

Well, gotcha. Well, some people, some people will use the slide dial aspect there, but that's another way you can do it. But that would be me. I just uh communicating. It's a struggle. And I'll say this too is uh again, I'm going by the kind of emotional thing. Since the office, maybe a couple years since opening the office, we open the office every Veterans Day on, you know, the day on, I think it's the Friday before Veterans Day. And we just open the office just for veterans patients, cleanings, basic dentistry, and we get the team to volunteer that day. And the pictures that we get from that, the marketing that comes from that, I can't tell you. It's not the intention, but again, we get people that come to us to say, you're the office that opens up for Veterans Day, right? So I've established loyalty. I've developed like, hey, you're the people that do right. You have compassion and you know consideration for others. I'm coming to you. That's the kind of place I want to come to.

Paul Etchison 20:12

Yeah, I remember when we were at the mastermind in Dustin, that happened. I think believe that happened at your practice while you were there, right? That was the first one I've ever missed in the history of the practice. So well, I'm glad you shared it with me.

Henry Ernst 20:23

But the team was there and the team still had a great one. We always do one of those big checks at the end of the day to add up how much dentistry we gave away. But that's the main purpose of it. But there is a side effect of you get all these pictures, you ask for permission, and gosh, just the value that you get from that is really great. It's amazing. Yeah.

Paul Etchison 20:40

Now you didn't answer Steve's question about if you'd done anything that really failed.

The Million-Dollar Question For Referrals

Henry Ernst 20:44

Have I done anything that failed? I did those, you know, you said it already, those little stupid coupon books. There was like one person in our town that has like these calendars they sell. And in the calendars, they have like little coupons in the corner. And I just realized, you know what? That's not the right marketing. Like, we're not going for the shoppers. Like, I was in the very beginning of the practice, I was trying to help everybody, especially local people. It wasn't that much money, but I was just like, you know what? If I had to do this again, I wouldn't do it. I would just say it's not for us. What about groupons? You guys ever did groupons?

Steve Markowitz 21:13

I did it once that was did not go well. Yeah. The first mailer I ever did, I put like$200 off or something or free exam. And then I had all my patients coming in with the coupon being like, How come it's not free for me? And I was like, I'm never doing that again.

Paul Etchison 21:28

Well, you know what's interesting is like if you think about it, discounts suck, but bonuses win. Like if you can figure out to give a bonus, like and give it, give something extra, it's great. But if you're just like discounting on price, it's it sucks.

Rethinking New Patient Gifts

Henry Ernst 21:42

I'll say this this worked for us in the very beginning of the practice. You know, you're starting a startup and you don't know what's gonna happen. And I do implants, I'm comfortable doing implants. So I think in the very beginning, we did like a special and we marketed like, you know, I think it was$2,500. Implant, abutment, crown, the whole thing, one price. But you got to pay for it right now. Like you got to pay for it now. So I may place the implant four months later, three months later, you may get everything else, but you got to pay it now. So what that did was if you think about it from the startup mode, it's giving me cash flow. I got, I probably had like 10 people that did that within the first six weeks. So that got me, you know,$25,000 of instant cash flow, and I'm comfortable doing this stuff, right? So obviously they came in for free console, take their x-rays and scan or whatever, and that's a good way to kind of like offset the wave that you could be coming, you know, that hey, I got 10 implant cases I started. Yes, they're drastically reduced, but I'm getting them. Plus, I've got all these people that I'm gonna take really good care of. They're gonna see I'm a nice guy, and they're gonna bring me other people. So that was one discount thing that worked pretty well for me. Interesting. Steve, how about you? Anything that flopped?

Final Takeaways And CTA

Steve Markowitz 22:51

I was thinking more about the phone call um stuff that Henry was doing, which I I love. The other thing that we do, you ever have that? I'm sure you have that patient that comes in, they're having pain in the upper right, but you don't see anything. So they just walk away. And you're like, oh, it's a limited and a PA. And we actually track those people and they'll get a phone, not all of them, but some of them will get random phone calls of just like, you know, we know we saw you uh a couple weeks ago, and we were just thinking about you wanted to see how that area was feeling. And just like that extra little care is like sometimes they'll be like, I didn't know you actually cared, or why are you calling me? It's so nice.

Paul Etchison 23:28

I like that. I really like that a lot because there's a lot of people like that. And it's sometimes they could walk out of it being like, and you know that what I always tell people is like, hey, if a dental problem exists, it will become more obvious as time goes, we will be identified. But I'm just not comfortable to say, let's do any treatment on this, let's just give it time. But this person could go somewhere else and maybe they find something and they, hey, stupid dentist. I told him attorney, I told him this, and he's had nothing happened. He totally missed it. But if you follow up with them and say, hey, it's still bothering you. Why don't you come back and let's take another look at it? That's a really good opportunity. I've never thought of. I really like that, Steve. It's good.

Henry Ernst 24:04

We always talk about like our cost per acquisition and marketing, or like how much does it cost? Get every single person. Every single coaching client I've ever told this is just amazed at the simplicity and how not many people talk about this. We call it the million-dollar question. Every hygiene patient that comes in your office, right, or every dental patient that comes when you're done with treatment, ask them, have your hygienist or your dental assistant ask, is there anybody in the else in the family I can get on the schedule? It's the dumbest, most simplest question. And it's amazing how you'll get two or three people right on the schedule right then and there. Didn't cost you a penny. It just cost you the time just to ask.

Paul Etchison 24:42

Yeah, and that's the added patients, man. Such a missed opportunity. You got to think that every single patient you see that's a new patient, you should be able to get one more new patient out of schedule. Usually, unless it's like some like teenager, uh younger people, but typically they've got kids, they've got spouses, and they are ready to party at your dental office with you. Ready to party. I remember when we used to do like those free whitenings where you you bit into it and it was like super easy. It was like some like kind of like silicone or something. You bit into it, it we didn't have to take impressions. We gave people Cheap whitening stuff. It was an okay promotion, I suppose, but it just sucked. It just didn't work. You know, but that's the thing, too, is you know, I would say we've done free whitening for people. I don't know if it really draws people in. The longer we I'm owner practice, the less I do these things. And I could use an additional 20, 25 new patients a month. I think I probably should.

Steve Markowitz 25:36

Do you think it's like patient gifts? Like I hear all about those patient gifts. They're on every Facebook group of people asking, like, what do you guys get new patient gifts? It may be nice, but that's not why they're there. They don't need they're there for FWAG.

Henry Ernst 25:48

They're they're they have We don't do gifts for every patient, but we do have like what we call VIP gifts. And we deem certain patients as their VIP, and you know which patients these are. They're so loyal. They send you other we have VIP for gifts for those people, but we don't give it for everybody.

Steve Markowitz 26:03

Yeah. Like we have the smile and our logo t-shirts. And when a patient comes in and they're wearing it, like, you know, that's the greatest sign of love, and they'll figure out something nice for them. But I haven't had a ton of luck with any of those new patient gifts.

Henry Ernst 26:19

Yeah. But it's probably like Paul, you just said, like, eh, I'm not fishing for new patients so much. Probably the fact that you develop such loyalty through all these other things you've done over the years and just the great hair that's reputation. Yeah. You're just like, yeah, I'm good. People walk in here all the time, and you probably have so many people that only want to see you. So there's so many people that have mouths of, gosh, whenever a tooth breaks, I'm going to Dr. Paul. So you've got a whole rest of your career just from that if you wanted to.

Paul Etchison 26:47

All right. Well, what I want you to take away from this episode is that marketing does not have to be complicated. It doesn't have to be expensive to work. There's a lot of things that we can do that don't cost a lot of money. And the practices that grow the fastest are the ones that give patients a reason to talk about them. They make their practice remarkable. And that usually comes from creativity, consistency, and genuinely just, I mean, caring about the patient experience, not the bigger ad budgets. So here are the key things to remember from this episode. Creative marketing ideas can often outperform those generic digital marketing things. Patients will refer you more patients when you give them something memorable to talk about. And that is done through the patient experience. And those small moments, those touch points, if you can do them well and you can do them consistently, it can help you create some long-term growth that isn't so dependent on the marketing. Now, if you want help building a practice that grows through systems, leadership, and smart strategy, not chaos or guesswork, please head over to dentalpracticeherous.com/slash strategy. And that is a free strategy call with me. There's no pressure. We're just going to have a conversation and talk about your practice. I'll give you some advice. And if I think dental practice heroes can help you, I will share with you what that looks like. Now, lastly, before you go, if this podcast has been helpful for you, please leave us a five star review. It is the easiest way to support it. It takes less than 30 seconds and it will help other dentists find the show. And I'm so thankful for those of you who do it. And I will be so thankful if you are that person today. Thank you so much for listening. Have a great week, and we'll talk to you next time.