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The Write It Scared Podcast
A podcast to help fiction writers work through self-doubt and learn the craft of writing a novel.
The Write It Scared Podcast
Valentine’s Special! Crafting Authentic Romance with Trisha Jenn Loehr
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FREE Romance Story Structure & Beat Guide From Write It Scared
Love is in the air! In this special Valentine’s Day episode of the Write it Scared podcast, I’m thrilled to be joined by the amazing Trisha Jenn Loehr, a romance expert and Author Accelerator Certified Fiction Book Coach.
Together, we’re diving headfirst into the art (and heart) of writing authentic romance.
We’re unpacking everything from developing unforgettable characters to building emotional intimacy that makes readers swoon. Trisha shares her incredible journey into romance writing and drops golden advice on overcoming common struggles—like keeping the chemistry alive and crafting believable relationships.
We also explore the difference between romance and love stories, how to handle romance arcs over a series, and why happy endings are non-negotiable in this genre. Whether you're dreaming up a standalone romance or weaving love into a sprawling fantasy series, this conversation will inspire you to create stories that truly connect.
Episode Highlights:
00:00 Starting with Self-Love: A Key to Great Romance
00:24 Welcome to the Write it Scared Podcast!
01:27 Valentine’s Day Special 💕
01:36 Meet the Wonderful Trisha Jen Lair
03:04 Trisha’s Journey: From Aspiring Writer to Romance Coach
06:25 What Makes Romance Writing Magical
07:35 Crafting Relatable, Compelling Characters
15:45 Tackling Challenges in Romance Writing
19:45 Embracing the Messiness of First Drafts
23:19 Why Happy Endings Matter in Romance
24:12 Romance vs. Love Stories: What’s the Difference?
24:40 Writing Romantic Arcs Across a Series
26:03 The Unique Challenges of Romantasy
28:59 Fantasy Romance vs. Romantic Fantasy: A Breakdown
36:19 How to Create Chemistry That Feels Real
40:14 Keeping the Spark Alive for Your Characters
41:48 Transformations Through Love: Romance and Growth
43:37 Parting Wisdom for Romance Writers
Whether you’re a seasoned romance author or just dipping your toes into the genre, this episode is packed with actionable tips and heartfelt advice. Don’t miss it—and don’t forget to subscribe so you never miss a chance to write boldly!
Guest Info:
Trisha Jenn Loehr is a romance writer and Author Accelerator certified book coach. She helps busy women who want to write romance novels without guilt or shame prioritize their writing, develop their craft, and find joy in the journey toward their publishing dreams.
Connect with Trisha on Instagram @trishajennreads and at trishajennreads.com
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To get in touch with Stacy:
Email: Stacy@writeitscared.co
https://www.writeitscared.co/wis
https://www.instagram.com/writeitscared/
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In order for a relationship to be successful, a character needs to fall in love with themselves. They need to understand who they really are, and they need to correct whatever that misbelief is so that they can be open to a real authentic relationship and connection. Because you can't love another person and be loved by them successfully if you're not loving yourself, if you aren't authentically yourself.
SPEAKER_00Welcome to the Write It Scared podcast. I'm your host, Stacey Fraser, a formally repressed creative soul, turned fiction writer, story editor, and author accelerator certified fiction book coach. At Write It Scared, we tell the truth about why writing a novel is so hard by acknowledging that most writers grapple with two stories. The one they want to put on the page to the best of their ability, and the often subconscious internal story that prevents them from doing it. This show is designed to help you identify and rewrite the internal narrative holding you back while you discover and write the story you want to tell and learn all the tools to help you do that successfully. Join me each week for a new episode where we'll talk about writing to deepen our understanding of the craft and of ourselves as writers. Writing a novel is an inside job that we do not do alone. Welcome to Red It's Scared. I'm glad you're here. Let's dive in. Hi, writer. Welcome back to the Write It's Scared Podcast. I'm your host, Stacey. Today kicks off the second week of February, and we are coming right up on Valentine's Day. So I have a very special treat for you, and of course, we are going to be talking about romance. Today I'm joined by Trisha Ginlair, who is a fellow author accelerator certified fiction book coach and an expert in the romance genre. And we are going to cover a lot of ground, focusing on many of the challenges that romance writers face, touching on how to set up believable romantic chemistry and make characters invest in their relationship. We also talk about romanticy, what it is, what it isn't, and a whole lot more. So let me give you Trisha's bio and then we will jump into the interview. Trisha Jen Lair is a romance writer and an author accelerator certified book coach. She helps busy women who want to write romance novels without guilt or shame, prioritize their writing, develop their craft, and find joy in the journey toward their publishing dreams. With a decade of experience as a communications and events professional, she understands writing, marketing, and the importance of identifying your audience. Her writing has been featured on the Jane Friedman blog, The Business Insider, The Calgary Herald, Wicked Authors, and Birthing Magazine. Hi, Trisha. Thank you so much for joining me today. How are you doing? Hi, Stacy. I'm great. I'm so excited to be here. Yeah, me too. We're gonna have some fun talking about romance and hopefully help some romance writers who are struggling out there right now. So I know I gave you a bit of a bio, but would you please share more with our listeners about you, who you are, what you do, and why you do it?
SPEAKER_02For sure. So I'm a bookworm. I've been a bookworm since I was a kid. That was always my thing. One of my favorite photos from growing up is one that my elementary school principal took of me at recess. There's snow all over the ground, and I'm sitting on a bench, my feet on the seat of the bench and my butt on the back of the bench with a bookmark in my mouth, reading a book that was probably way too long and thick for a fourth grader to read. But that's what I was doing. And that's been always my favorite thing. But when I was in high school, I got all those mixed messages about what a real job is and what a real career is and what real success looks like. So rather than try and try and pursue a writing career, I went into communications because then I could still write and I could still work with words, but I was doing quote unquote real work. I was writing copy for nonprofit organizations. I was writing blog posts and um eventually social media posts and things like that. And while I learned a lot and I had some really great experiences, I still just wanted to work with stories, especially romance stories, because I've always loved romances and love stories and just how they they just fill you with joy and they're feel good and the the ending is always happy. So eventually I started trying to find my way back into literary circles for work. I started freelance editing, realized I was an absolutely terrible copy editor. And my skills actually were in the realm of developmental editing, of looking at those big picture story issues to making sure make sure that a story actually worked. And then I eventually stumbled upon author accelerator and realized, oh, I can do more than just straight developmental edits. I can work with people one-on-one as they write. I can chat with people and talk with them through their story, which is one of my favorite things to do because it's like you're just having tea with a friend and talking about the book that you read, or in this case, want to write. And yeah, so that's how I've ended up here. And it's been a weird, winding journey, but I absolutely love helping women write the stories they want to write because these stories are powerful. They are revolutionary, they center women's experiences. Yes, there are romances from male perspectives, whether those are straight males or queer males, but the vast majority of romance feature women. And so much of literature does not. Women are secondary characters in so much of literature. And so I love helping women who've been told that our stories don't matter, that these fluffy, silly, spicy, whatever stories that we enjoy don't matter. And I want to help women take that back and own it and prioritize our writing because we deserve the time and the energy to write our stories. Even if we have day jobs and partners and kids and family members that we need to take care of, we still deserve time to read and write for ourselves.
SPEAKER_00I love that. Thank you so much for sharing that. And I couldn't agree more. You know, romance is a genre that is about hope and change. Exactly. Exactly. Hope and change around love. And we're gonna dig into that today. Today, what we're doing is a little bit different than the typical interviews that we have on the podcast. We are teaming up to discuss some of the most common struggles we see romance writers have, and then kind of a what to do instead or how to take a different approach. So, on that note, let's kick off just talking about romance in general, what it is, and what it's designed to do. I think this is a bit of a misconception, especially for the new writer. Romance is not just about getting two people together at the end of a book. Romance truly is about the journey those characters take to becoming better versions of themselves so that they can be in a relationship that is fulfilling and complete and whole. And I know this is something that you talk about a lot is that character development and the characters' journey. So you want to speak to that about what you see writers struggle with on that level and what they can do to help craft these stories and these characters.
SPEAKER_02I think one of the biggest things that I see when I'm working with romance writers is in that first draft or in their pitch when they're telling me about their book that they want to write, they focus so much on the premise, on that hook of whatever kind of fun thing it is. Oh, it's this type of guy. They have this kind of me cute, and you know, it's really spicy or whatever. And that's great to start. But when you're so focused on your tropes or your hook and you're not thinking about those characters, you end up inevitably hitting that writer's block where you get five, 10, 15,000 words into the story and you're like, oh, what do I do? Where do I go? And so that's why I work with my writers to figure out what their character's myth belief about is. What is that thing that is stopping your character from being able to have a successful romantic relationship? Whether it is, you know, just a misbelief of, you know, I'm not really lovable the way I am. So I'm gonna change myself to fit whatever I think my partner wants. We all have read a book with a character with that and a belief. We all probably know someone who's also in real life been that person, right? This woman who doesn't like sports, but suddenly starts dating a guide who's all about this one specific sports team. And so they make that their whole personality. We've seen that. But in order for a relationship to be successful, a character needs to fall in love with themselves. They need to understand who they really are and they need to correct whatever that misbelief is so that they can be open to a real authentic relationship and connection because you can't love another person and be loved by them successfully if you're not loving yourself, if you aren't authentically yourself. And so I love working with writers to really dig into who your characters are. What do they believe about the world, about love, about themselves? Where do those beliefs come from? And now let's think about how in your story, in their interactions with their love interest, in their interactions with other characters, in the poor choices that your character makes or their reactions to things, how is are those beliefs confirmed or challenged and changed?
SPEAKER_00I love all of that. What these characters really need to do is overcome this internal struggle that they're having. And that is really the true conflict of the story, of the romance story, is that there is something internally that one or both of the love interests have to overcome in order to be emotionally whole and available to accept or give love. And that is kind of talking about theme there a little bit. Yes, a hundred percent. And here's I get this all the time. Like I ask my writer, so what is this story? What are you trying to say with this story? And you know, and they say the blanket answer here is love conquers all, right?
SPEAKER_02You know, that that is a a great and a very common theme.
SPEAKER_01It is totally so broad, but it's so broad. Can we bring it, can you bring it more down to more granular leather?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it has to granular personalized, yes. But the characters. So when you were talking about character development, and you ask, what do they, what do they want? What do they believe about themselves and the world? And where did those beliefs come from? And most importantly, what do they believe about love? What is their false belief around love? If you so then you can take that back and look at it through the lens of the theme of love conquers all and make it specific to that character. Be like, what will love conquer in this character? Specifically, you can even that make it the inverse of what will the character have to let go of in order to love wholeheartedly. And usually wholeheartedly means to me, it means being vulnerable, true intimacy, right? Into me, I let you see all my ugly stuff. I let down my walls. So do you have any thoughts on that? On how to take that love conquers all, make it granular.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and I think that idea of what does your character need to overcome is such a great way of phrasing it. Another way to ask a writer or to think about it is what does your character need to learn or unlearn?
SPEAKER_00I love right?
SPEAKER_02They need to let go of something, they need to learn something, unlearn something. For example, a novel that I just finished reading last night stayed up way too late. I was like, oh, there's only 100 pages left. The main, the male love interest, it was a female-male pairing. And he had to let go of the fear of abandonment because so many significant relationships in his life, whether they were familial or romantic, that person had left, whether by their own choice or not by their own choice, because you know, sometimes things happen. And he kept putting the brakes on this relationship and pulling back from this woman that he was so madly in love with because he was afraid, well, what if she doesn't stay? And he had to learn that love is worth the risk. He had to learn that just because other people had abandoned him did not mean that this person would do the same. Right. That's personalizing. Love conquers all, love conquers fear of abandonment. Yes. But like make it personal for this character. And that's where really understanding a handful of key events in your character's backstory. What major things happened in their backstory that have left a really stark imprint on them, whether those again are related to romantic relationships or to other aspects of their life, other relationships, because friendships, family relationships, those impact how we understand romantic love as well.
SPEAKER_00Absolutely. So the key here is making like the hole in your character's heart really big. Well, maybe not really big, but very specific, I think. Yes.
SPEAKER_02Making this key. Yeah. Because there are also that's so many people complain that, oh, every romance novel is the same. You know, these people aren't romance writers or readers, really, but the handful of popular romance novels or romantic stories, movies, whatever that they've seen, all seem to follow the same beats. And yes, they do, because just like every murder mystery, every thriller, they all hit some of those key beats because you order the same thing at Starbucks every time you go because you know what you like. Same thing with books. But what makes each romance novel interesting and engaging and so fun to keep reading them is that we have these big issues, these same beats, these same themes, but they are specific to unique characters. And again, that's where we need to focus on our character. It's not those plot events that make the book interesting. They make it fun, yes. But the plot events showcase the character, their personality, their backstory, their challenges, their learnings, the moments they refuse to learn, so keep making the same stupid mistake because they're people at the end of it. And we want to fall in love with these people and we want to cheer for them and root for them. And so we need to create characters who are layered and specific. And that's what makes it unique and interesting, rather than the same story over and over again.
SPEAKER_00And in the writing on the line level, romance is such a character-driven genre, and the way to deliver that experience to the reader is through interiority. Especially in today's romance reading world is allowing your reader to access your character's thoughts and feelings and getting those things on the page. Exactly. And that's part of what makes it so fun to read because you're so deeply invested in these characters. And you brought up such a good point that a lot, you know, people who are not romance writers or romance readers often think that this genre is easy because it's neither same result. It always is the same, right? You know, two people who resist and then eventually fall in love and get together happily ever after. But that is a deception. The fact that it has a very rooted structure and strong expectations from readers is what makes it so hard to do well. And so it is not easy. So I say that just for any romance writer out there who is listening. This is hard. Don't listen to anybody who is saying this is trite, this is smut, this is whatever. Writing good romance is not easy for many, many reasons. One, the interpersonal conflict that you have to get across, the extra personal conflict, which is the love interest, right? So the love interest is the one of the main driving antagonistic forces in the story. So the character's object of desire is actually the thing that they're trying to run away from. That's hard to pull off.
SPEAKER_02When people talk to me about how, oh, all romance novels end the same. Well, so do murder mysteries. We always find out such a good point. Right? A murder mystery, you always find out who did it at the end. Does that make you not want to read it? No. You want to know who who did it, right? That's the point of reading it. Right? But with a romance novel, what makes it so hard knowing that you're gonna hit some of these specific beats, that you know, you can play around with where exactly they happen and what they actually look like. But there are those kind of specific beats. But that the central story of the novel needs to be that romance, right? The developing relationship between your love interests, whether you have two love interests or four love interests, if you're writing a polyam story, that central relationship needs to be your main story and it needs to end in a happily ever after. That's literally the only requirements for a novel to be a romance novel. But to make it interesting and fun and good, quote unquote, for your ideal romance reader is hard because you have to add in all of those layers of all your different characters because people, people are weird, people are hard, people are challenging and layered and complex. So you've got to add in all of that, which in itself is really hard. But then you have to add in your subplots and your other characters and your other relationships and your setting and all of these other things. And if you're writing a romantic, you have to add in all your world building and you have to add in the other secondary plot of whatever battle or big world-ending thing your characters are facing. There's so many elements that you have to play with and balance, and everything, everything needs to in some way support your romance plot and that relationship. And that's what is so hard because you have people complain that a romance novel didn't, it didn't feel good, it was disjointed because your subplots didn't actually support your romance plot. And so there was a disconnect, it was kind of two stories mushed together, and that doesn't work. And that again, what makes it so hard because you have so many pieces to try and fit together.
SPEAKER_00Writing is hard no matter what it is. And so we're saying this, and our listeners are probably going, like, no stamps.
SPEAKER_02If you've actually tried writing a book, yes, you'll you'll agree. It's hard.
SPEAKER_00No shit. But I think this brings up a really good point, and I know this is one that you often talk about is yes, there are many, many things to juggle, lots of complexity, and no one accomplishes all of that in their first draft.
SPEAKER_02Oh no. And so many writers I work with struggle because they're trying to write this first draft and they think it should be good. Your first draft is never gonna be good. Your second draft probably isn't be good. I have a couple of writers who write pretty tidy first drafts, but there's always a handful of major things that need to be changed because there's just too many things to try and fit together when you are hammering out those words. And it depends on how you write. Some people, you might write a really clean first draft if you're the kind of writer who writes a few chapters, then goes back and looks at it all and then looks at your outline and tweaks that. So then you write a few more chapters and then you look back and you tweak and you tweak the outline. So that you're constantly doing you're almost doing some revision as you write. For some people, that works. For most of us, myself included, that ends up having me rewrite the first three chapters of my novel four times, which is what I did in 2023. I never finished that novel. I wrote the first three chapters completely over again four times.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_02I re-outlined the book four times. So while that works for some people, most of us need to just brain dump and get a story on the page and then go back and pick out, oh, this piece is okay and this piece is good. Oh, I like this piece, but it needs to move over here. And oh, this is good. Let's expand this and let's sprinkle tidbits of it over here and over here, which is hard. Revision is hard, right? Brain dumping onto a page and writing that first draft is easy than revision because you can feel free just to throw it all out there and be okay, or at least try and be okay with this is garbage. Microscrafts are filled with bits where it's like in brackets, add witty dialogue about X and X here. Or they go somewhere cool and have a moment of intimacy.
SPEAKER_00That's so funny that you say that a few writers in my group coaching program, and this is their first novel, and they they've never written a first draft before. So they don't know what a true first draft looks like. And I was the same way when I started writing, I just assumed. That it should look like, you know, what's on my shelf.
SPEAKER_02Right. And I that's a mistake that so many people make.
SPEAKER_00Terribly disappointed in myself because that is not what was happening. Anyway, so I shared some of my first draft writing with them, and they were like, oh, you weren't kidding. This is big. And I was like, see, yes. And we make it better.
SPEAKER_02We make it better through the process of reason. So many, so many new writers pick up a book off their shelf, and they don't realize that this book that they read and they loved and they felt they absolutely adore took the authors three years to write and went through six rounds of editing before it actually ended up on their shelf. Yeah. Or long. Because, yeah. And because so much of media has romanticized this idea of writing of someone sits in a room and they go type, type, type, type, type, and they send it to their editor who says, Oh, this is wonderful. And then it's on the shelf a month later in the bookstore and they're doing a book signing.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Unfortunately for the vast majority of us, that's not right. What publishing looks like.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Well said. Well, I want to transition over into talking about endings. We touched on a minute ago. Romance, the romance genre, the idea that one of the conventions, the expectations the reader has when they come to a romance story is that this is going to be about hope that these people are going to get together and that you're going to deliver a happy ever after, or at least a happily for now. So this is one of the things I see sometimes when people come to me for help and they say they're writing a romance, but they're not planning for a happily ever after. They don't guarantee that. They don't want to be locked into that. They say, you're not writing a romance then. And they're like, what? I mean, it might be romantic, but it may be actually a love story. Yes. That's the difference between a love story and a romance. And a love story, it could have those romantic elements, but the expectation is not that there is going to be a happily ever after or a happily for now. Uh a lot of times those books are more tragic. Think Romeo and Juliet, Anna Karina.
SPEAKER_02If your characters all die on the end, it's not a romance. It might be a romantic story or a love story, but if they don't have their happily ever after or their happily for now, it's not a romance novel. It doesn't fit in the parameters of the genre.
SPEAKER_00Okay, so now let's talk about a romance story that arcs over a series of books and how to deliver on that expectation. So you got a writer who's writing a trilogy and it's a continuous arc of a relationship between two people. But they don't get their happy until the end of it. So how do you deliver a satisfying experience at the end of book one and book two?
SPEAKER_02And that's really hard. And it's not super common within your standard romance genre because readers want those characters to have that happily forever, the happily ever after, the happy for now at the end of book one. So if you are carrying the same, we'll say couple, the same couple through those three books, then by the end of book one, they need to be committed to we're gonna figure this out together. We still have crap to deal with, we still have things to overcome, but we're committed to do it together in some way. And then they'll deal with whatever they need to deal with in book two, but they haven't quite dealt with everything. Which then at the end of book two, okay, we've we've sorted through some of our shit. We've overcome some external plot problem, but we still have some things to get through. We haven't gotten our whole happily ever after yet. And that's what you then would get in book number three. And this is where romantic is really challenging and why some romance readers really enjoy it and some really don't. Because whether there's the distinction between writing romanticy, which is fantasy romance, or romantic fantasy, which is a fantasy with some romantic elements, but doesn't meet the cat the the genre expectations of romance readers, right?
SPEAKER_00How easy it is to get those things confused. It's so confusing, right?
SPEAKER_02And even even walking into the bookstore, you can walk into the fantasy section and you can see books that some people would call fantasy with romantic elements, though romantic fantasy, a fantasy that has a love story in it. But you also see some books that could be shelved in fantasy or in romance because they are romanticy. They are fantasy romances, just like you have paranormal romances or contemporary romances. The main genre of the book is the romance. And fantasy romance, again, your main storyline needs to be the romance between your characters and everything else going on around it, supports that, challenges it, pushes them together, all of that fun stuff. And then at the end of your book one of however many books your romanticy series has, because some of them have two, some of them have 16. You never know what you're gonna get. And I'm sorry, your romantic has 16 books in it. I'm gonna get super frustrated by the end of book four because I want that happily ever Esther.
SPEAKER_00Well, unless it's following different characters.
SPEAKER_02Well, that's the thing. Or to play love interests. Yeah, if it's one relationship going through all of them, it's more challenging to keep dragging it on because you need to find enough of a happily for now that your romance readers are satisfied that they got their happily ever after, even if it's there's still things to overcome. If it keeps just being out of the character's graphs, your readers are gonna get frustrated. If it the characters don't end up together, then don't advertise this as a romance. It might be romantic, but if they don't end up together, your readers are gonna throw that book across the room if they're diehard romance readers, and they're never gonna read your book again, which I've had to have this conversation with a few of my clients because romance readers come in with such a clear expectation. They want that relationship, they want to see Love Conquer All. It doesn't need to be marriage, it doesn't need to be 2.5 kids in a picket fence, but it needs to be those characters committed to each other to make this thing work.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. So it doesn't mean that you need to change the story that you're writing. You need to understand the genre that you're writing in. Yeah. Right? I think of fantasy romance is a romance set in a fantasy setting, and it's all about the romance. Yeah. That's what I'm reading for.
SPEAKER_02Yes. So a fantasy novel that has romantic elements is a fantasy novel first. So it doesn't need you're happily ever after. You can have your your romance is a subplot, right? It can be small, it can be big, but the romance is not the main story. So your readers who enjoy fantasy but don't love romance are like, okay, there's a little bit of romance here. That's okay. But a romanticy novel is readers who want the they want the romance set in the fantasy world. So they want all that romance, they want all that space. Whereas your your fantasy reader doesn't always want that. Some might enjoy it, but they don't necessarily want the romance. If the romance isn't there, they don't mind. If a romance reader picks up a fantasy novel expecting romanticity, and there is no romance, or very little romance, they're going to be frustrated because they're there for the romance with the fantasy dressing.
SPEAKER_00If that makes sense. Yes. So, and that is an example of a romance that it's really about a one character's journey, right? But it's sprung across several books. And it is really truly about that romance.
SPEAKER_02It really is. And Akotar is one of those series that, spoiler alert if you haven't read it, the first book is a bit of an outlier. It's set the seed for the main romance. But the romance that you see in that first, the romantic relationship in that first book is kind of a red herring.
SPEAKER_00And if for anybody who doesn't know what we're talking about, we're talking about A Court of Thorns and Roses by Sarah J. Moss. Um and most people don't care for the first book, but they love the rest of it.
SPEAKER_02Well, that thing is like, and I I'll be honest, I read the first book because it's a Beauty and the Beast retelling, which is my jam. Yeah. I read the first one and I was like, eh. And then I completely forgot that I'd read it, and someone was like, oh, you should read this, you should read this. So I picked it up, thinking I'd never read it. And then it started coming back to me. I'm like, wait a second, I have read this book. Oh my gosh. And then I started picking up more and more things about what I didn't like about the relationship. And started picking up some of the foreshadowing and the seeds that were planted for the later books in the series.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, absolutely. Another one, and if you like giving you the beast retellings, is A Curse So Dark and Lonely by Bridget uh Kermer. That's we don't know what one. It's been helpful. It's a beautiful series. A Curse of Dark and Lonely? A Curse So Dark and Lonely by Bridget. Kermer, I think is how she pronounces it. And but that is a romanticy as well. I'm gonna look that book up. It is a romance set in a fantasy world. So I think if you're a writer who's writing a fantasy romance over a series, let's say it's two or three books, what you need to deliver at the end of the first book is hope. There has to be an inkling, even if they I mean, and I've seen some books where they hate each other at the end of the first. They don't really, but they want there's that sexual tension is still there.
SPEAKER_02It's there's still but they're they're still pushing back. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, they're very steeped in denial. But they're but the reader has got to have hope that there is an opportunity for growth within the relationship.
SPEAKER_02There has to be enough of a promise there of that happily ever after for your reader to keep reading. I think when you're writing fantasy romance or romantic fantasy, whatever one you're writing, if you're writing a fantasy that has romance in it, it's really important to go look at the other books that you love, the other books that you think would be in your ideal reader's bookshelf in their own personal library, and figure out okay, is my book a romance or is it a fantasy? Which is it primarily? Are all the other books on my ideal reader's shelf mostly romance, set in fantasy worlds? Okay, then I need to make sure that I'm meeting the expectations of a romance novel. If I want to include romance, but my ideal reader and my favorite books that I think my book goes with are fantasy novels that may or may not have romance in them, then I'm writing a fantasy with some romance in it, which is a romantic fantasy. So I need to meet the genre conventions of fantasy. There are some romantic novels that end on kind of sour notes with just a little smidgen of hope there. Just a little smidgen, which some people love. Personally, I don't like that. I want to know that they are committed and they are good and they're gonna figure this out together. So I'm not the ideal reader for those books. But half of my book club absolutely love it. And they love the anticipation of it'll get better in book two.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, understanding a reader, and that's a good point that also the lens of romance has changed over the years. What was a happily ever after 15, 20 years ago can look different now, or a happily for now can look a little different now. I interviewed AK Nevermore. And she writes Dark Romanticy and also has a series of um a motorcycle club romance. Very dark, very gritty. There's no sunshine or butterflies there. And she made a really good point that to her readers, uh a happily ever after, happily for now, which most of it is a series, so it's mostly a happily for now, does not look like what our mothers or grandmothers were expecting or looking for. So definitely it changes. And knowing your reader and you are your reader. So mean dear tastes, we worry so much as writers. You're a writer, I'm a writer. We're all writers listening to this. And we we worry, you know, what if they don't like it? And I think we forget that the the most important thing is to remember that the one person we have to satisfy more than anybody else at the beginning is ourselves. And then find the people that are like us. They are, those are our readers.
SPEAKER_02There's no book that every single reader in the world will love. Because we all have different tastes. And as writers, as you say, the the only person we really need to satisfy as we're writing is ourselves. Do I like the story that I'm writing? Yes, inevitably, at times when you're writing it, you will go, oh my gosh, this is complete garbage. What am I doing? I shouldn't even finish this. Well, we got to push through that because we always hate what we're writing at some point, and then we realize, oh no, this is actually better than I thought, or oh, I can fix this. But at the end, once we have that finished book in our hand, that finished draft, we can go, okay, I am happy with what I've written.
SPEAKER_00Well said. Okay. So a couple other things I wanted to make sure that we touched on, because I know that these are things that writers struggle with is how to create believable chemistry between these three characters. And the other thing is how to make them stick. So, best advice on how to create believable chemistry from you.
SPEAKER_02Don't just focus on the physical chemistry. Yeah, we want to know that they find each other physically attractive, but don't focus solely on that. Let there be moments of emotion or intimacy where one character remembers something that the other character said way back when. Maybe it was their favorite chocolate bar and they bring it to them. Moments where characters care about one another in a way that just exudes kindness and the fact that they've been paying attention to this person. Because that as someone being loved is so much more impactful on a character than, oh my gosh, you're so hot. I love your boobs, right? Which, yes, it everyone loves being told that their body is beautiful because it helps remind you that your body does incredible things no matter what size or shape it is. Having someone remember a small detail about something that you care about can seem like such a small thing, but those small things leave massive imprints on a character's psyche and on their heart. So that's my biggest thing is yes, allow there to be physical attraction because we want that, but allow for those moments of emotional connection where characters really pay attention to who the other person is.
SPEAKER_00I love that. And speak in the same vein, understanding who your characters are and how they're broken is one avenue. And then allowing your characters to spend time together. So you've got to get a situation where they have to spend time together. And this is where you can lean on your tropes too. And tropes are not cliche, tropes are not dangerous, tropes are fun ways to satisfy reader expectations. So leaning in on your tropes, you know, if it's a second chance romance, well, then there's a history. So this these people know things about each other that nobody else does, right? So it's not just about attraction, but it's also it can be about history. One thing I always love is when the other person has a false impression of of the other character, pick up on little pieces that poke holes in that false impression. Um showing moments of where people are truly who they are, and and don't forget to put in the ship part of the relationship, you know, the friendship part. They have to have something in common. Yeah, you gotta find some common ground at some point. I don't care if it's they both hate the same kind of ice cream. Humor is another good way to start to develop that chemistry. And we all, I think most of us romance readers, we love the banter in the bicker between these two. Yes. I'm a junkie for enemies to lovers and also second romance of the bickering.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and sometimes you can get really great bickering in a friend to romance too, because they're not afraid to talk to each other, right? And this is where, like you said, it's focusing on the shit. These are relationships that need to develop. So it can't be just about the sex. Let our care let your characters get to know one another and learn about each other and enjoy each other's company in other aspects of life because romance is not just date nights. Romance is bringing the other person coffee when they need it, or giving them a little snip when you realize that they're hungry, or sending a little text message to check in on their day. That is where relationships build and develop when you know this other person is thinking of you.
SPEAKER_00Okay, so let's talk about the second part of that and how do you keep these people together long enough to let them fall in love again, or for for or for the first time.
SPEAKER_02You gotta force them to be together and interact with one another, right? And you have to have those moments that force your character to, like you said, see the real person underneath, see things and experience things that poke holes in their misbelief, whether that is a misbelief about the other person or their misbelief about love. It's giving them opportunities to have their problem, their issue, their trauma, whatever it is, have that misbelief challenged so that they can start to question it and then give them opportunities to grow and make different choices. Instead of running away, they stick it out.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. And one of the best ways to make them, to force them to find a way is to add in some stakes. They can't leave this situation. They're on a boat in the middle of who knows where. They can't, right? They live the cost of walking away from being in this uncomfortable situation with this person has to be so high. Like I have to stick this out, I have to endure, I can handle this because it's temporary and I can't disappoint or I can't risk, or if I don't, if I don't stay here and work with this poor person, I'm not gonna get the promotion to my dream job.
SPEAKER_02And I'm gonna have to go move back in with my parents. Right.
SPEAKER_00Which also brings up one more point that we probably should talk about is that each of these characters has driving external wants that don't always have to do with love. Right? So they're beginning the story in pursuit of a desire, and maybe it is about love, but but usually they're beginning the story in pursuit of a desire that is not related to love, and something crashes into them, uh, i.e., the other character. And that character is the love interest in it is getting in the way of them pursuing this external desire. Yeah. So that may shift.
SPEAKER_02So yeah, and I think it it can be really helpful sometimes to think about how does this external desire actually in some way connect whether you're unconsciously to your character's misbelief about love, to the thing they need to learn or get over. Because so often they are interconnected because that's the point of your story, that's the theme of your story. And it's all connected. They're just different aspects of that same pursuit of self-love or identity or pleasing that person that you want to be proud of you. It's all connected. So if I want this promotion because it will make me feel like I've accomplished something because they don't feel like they are enough, well, that translates into every relationship that they have, right?
SPEAKER_00But this is all beautiful, beautiful point. It is all connected. And it's all driven from the operating system of the character's false belief.
SPEAKER_02And to circle back to the very beginning of our chat, it's all about character. Your romance, all these plot events, all support your character's transformation that makes them open and available to be successful in their romantic relationship. It's all a circle, it's all connected.
SPEAKER_00Uh, that's a I love that. And that is a great place for us to wrap up. So, just a couple more questions. What wish would you like to impart to your fellow romance writer out there?
SPEAKER_02You deserve to write and enjoy whatever type of romance stories you want to write or read. You deserve to put your time and your energy and whatever else you want into that. You deserve it.
SPEAKER_00I love that. And I couldn't agree more. Where can listeners find you, Trisha?
SPEAKER_02Listeners can find me at TrishaGenreads.com. That's Jen with two N's. They can also find me on Instagram at Trisha JenReads, and those are the places where I show up the most.
SPEAKER_00Do you have anything exciting coming up that you want to share?
SPEAKER_02I am hopefully going to be in the next couple months launching a course all about misbelief about love and how to really dig into who your character is and what they believe about love and how they can overcome that misbelief. So if you subscribe to my newsletter on my website or follow me on Instagram, you will be the first to know when that course is ready.
SPEAKER_00Oh, thank you for sharing that. That sounds that sounds fascinating. Well, thank you for your time today, and I will see you next time. Thank you, Stacey. Have a great day. Thank you for listening to the Ride It Scared podcast. If you enjoyed today's show, please make sure to hit the follow button so you never miss an episode. And please leave a review. Reviews help other writers like you find the voices and messages they need to hear to continue to write their stories. Let's lift each other up. Remember, you can be scared and still be unstoppable. I'll see you next week.
