How to Build a Magic System That Serves Your Story with Gina Kammer

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This week is all about writing fantasy and building magic systems! 

We cover:

• What a magic system is designed to do
• The difference between soft vs. hard and low vs. high magic systems (and why knowing the difference matters)
• Practical ways to ground readers in the familiar, even when your world is totally new
• Strategies for overcoming those tricky mental blocks we all hit while building fantasy worlds (you're definitely not alone!)
• Gina’s powerful tips from brain science to help you connect with your readers on a deeper level

If you’ve ever struggled to craft magic systems or fantasy worlds readers can’t get enough of, this episode is for you. Gina and I will leave you feeling inspired, capable, and excited to dive into your own magical creations

Links mentioned: 

Four Core Types of Magic Systems 

 inkybookwyrm.com

Word Wizard's Journey: Turn Your Story Idea into a Marketable Book https://www.inkybookwyrm.com/f/bookmap

YouTube: Gina Kammer, The Inky Bookwyrm

https://www.youtube.com/@ginakammer

Enchant Your Readers program

https://www.inkybookwyrm.com/courses/enchantyourreaders

Plus, fantasy and sci-fi writers can join her Critique Partner Program (50% off through this link!)

Transcript

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SPEAKER_00 0:00

A magic system is simply the set of rules, limitations, abilities that define the supernatural forces in your fantasy world. But it isn't useful in a story unless it's there to enhance the story arc and immersive experience.

SPEAKER_01 0:21

Welcome to the Write It Scared podcast. I'm your host, Stacey Fraser, a formally repressed creative soul, turned fiction writer, story editor, and author accelerator certified fiction book coach. At Write It Scared, we tell the truth about why writing a novel is so hard by acknowledging that most writers grapple with two stories. The one they want to put on the page to the best of their ability, and the often subconscious internal story that prevents them from doing it. This show is designed to help you identify and rewrite the internal narrative holding you back while you discover and write the story you want to tell and learn all the tools to help you do that successfully. Join me each week for a new episode where we'll talk about writing to deepen our understanding of the craft and of ourselves as writers. Writing a novel is an inside job that we do not do alone. Welcome to Red It's Scared. I'm glad you're here. Let's dive in. Hi, writer. Welcome back to the Write It Scared podcast, where we talk about the brave and messy business of writing our novels. I'm your host, Stacey Fraser, and we are going to be digging into how to write fantasy and build magic systems and use brain science to create immersive reader experiences. And I'll be talking with my friend and fellow book coach and editor, Gina Kamer. But before I give you Gina's full bio and we dive into our interview, I wanted to remind you that there is still time to enter the podcast anniversary giveaway. That's right, the Ride It Scared Podcast turned one back in April. And to celebrate that, and to celebrate you, the listeners, and all of the amazing guests that come on this show, I'm giving away three 90-minute plot strategy sessions with me, plus some other bonus prizes. So you can enter to win the giveaway by going to the link in the show notes or by visiting writeitscared.co forward slash podcast anniversary giveaway. Again, I'll put that link in the show notes. Have until June 11th to enter. So if you want to enter to win, just click the link and follow the prompts. Okay, here is Gina's bio, and then we'll jump right into her interview. Gina Kamer is a book coach and developmental editor who uses brain science hacks to take science fiction and fantasy authors through each step of the novel writing process to create stories that enchant readers. Gina combines her background in teaching literature with her insights as a former in-house editor to mentor authors through craft instruction and in the publishing industry. She has over a decade of professional story dragon experience and she coaches authors at the inkybookworm.com so that they know exactly which next steps to take on their journeys to publication. Hi, Gina. Thank you so much for being on the show today. How are you doing?

SPEAKER_00 3:13

Hi, Stacy. I'm so good. I'm so glad to be here because you are just such an amazing human. And I am so glad to know you. So yeah, I'm so excited to just get to chat with you today. I didn't pay her to say that.

SPEAKER_01 3:27

Well, likewise, Gina, likewise, I don't get to talk to you very often, but we always have a really good time when we do. And before we hit record, we were talking about all of the, I don't know, all of the things. So we had a good catch-up session. But today we are going to focus on talking about fantasy and magic systems because that is your wheelhouse. But before we go there, why don't you share with our listeners just a bit more about how you came to be a book coach and a developmental editor?

SPEAKER_00 3:58

Yeah, I was always like the author-illustrator kid. And so I've just been writing, you know, since a kid onward. But I thought I was gonna teach college literature and writing, and I did. But as much as I love teaching, I realized I just wanted to work on books. And that was always my first love. So I took a temp position at a children's publisher. And eventually that's what turned into my full-time editing position. And I loved it there. But after several years, I was craving more of my preferred niche of sci-fi and fantasy more exclusively. So I finally took the the leap into freelance and coaching was just this kind of natural next step as my authors requested more mentorship. Like at first it was accident. Like I made these custom contracts to try to accommodate all these like people who wanted like ongoing edits and basically everything that we've come to know now as book coaching. And they wanted this extra teaching, but it became so commonly requested that I was drowning in admin to the point where I think I was finally just desperate enough that I started like looking into what you know, how how could I make this more streamlined? How could I do this in a way that's more sustainable? And I must have found, I don't know what led me actually to learning that book coaching actually was a thing, but I learned that it was a thing. And so I did a bunch of professional development. I met other amazing book coaches like you who I could troubleshoot with and understand how to make the coaching piece a more sustainable part of my editing business. So of course I still edit too, but coaching, editing, they work so well together.

SPEAKER_01 5:59

They do. And it's such a delight to get to help facilitate someone else's story and put that into the world. So in your bio, which was a great bio, by the way. I love that you say you're a professional story dragon. That made me laugh. But in your bio, you say that one of the tools that you use when you work with your writers is using brain science hacks. And I wondered if you would explain what that means a little bit more for anybody who doesn't know.

SPEAKER_00 6:30

Yeah. So that actually started back in grad school. I was working on my thesis and that led me into brain science. I wanted to dig into creativity and how creativity works. I started to learn more about how stories actually work on readers. And I was like, hmm, I think there's something here to kind of reverse engineer how humans process art, because there wasn't a lot just specifically on stories at the time. So I was looking at studies that they did on music and other things, art related, and how that works on people and what they actually want out of it. And through that, I came up with these insights that we get from brain science that can help us create a better reading experience in our stories.

SPEAKER_01 7:24

And now you have to share what those are.

SPEAKER_00 7:27

Yeah. I call them the three key to reader enchantment expectations, enlightenment, and experience. So the first one is expectations. And of course, we know how important those expectations are, not only in our own lives, but for what we want to read. And having those expectations broken is rough. So we want to make sure we do the market research. We understand the kind of story structure that have the turning points that readers are expecting at regular intervals. You know, all of those things are kind of universals that we're to quote Lisa Cron, we we're wired for, right? Like we just expect these things in story. Yeah. So that's why I call them the three keys to reader enchantment because I feel like it enchants readers. And what I mean by that is it's the story spell. It's that immersive, like, forget the whole world, you're in the story, you are vicariously experiencing the emotions and events that the characters are experiencing. And it all ties back into our emotional memory, which is part of the brain science piece behind it. That's so key. When we write, it draws on our emotional memories. That's how we can understand these things that technically haven't happened to us. Like we don't have our own memories of riding a dragon, but the emotional experience is probably quite similar to something we have experienced. And we can draw on that emotional memory, but we do it subconsciously because once it becomes conscious, that's where it kind of breaks that immersion. Like if you hit on something maybe a little too on the nose or something like that, it, you know, then then suddenly the reader is remembering their own experience like that, maybe in a way that takes them out of the story. And we don't actually want that. We want that sustained immersion. So yeah, it's all about that immersive experience that they that readers can get something more out of that lasts.

SPEAKER_01 9:29

So you work with fantasy and sci-fi. So you you are in the speculative fiction world. So what draws you? What why do you love it? Why do you love those stories?

SPEAKER_00 9:40

Yeah, I always have. So I mean, I don't know if it's because I was just always this daydreamer on my parents' farm and loved playing pretend. So I don't know. Maybe the love of the fantastic just started young, never left. But I think Tolkien describes it best as like that longing for something more. And fantasy gives us glimmers of that, I think better than anything else. So it's that hope of something else.

SPEAKER_01 10:10

I love that. So we're talking about fantasy, and we're naturally going to talk about some magic systems today. So, from your perspective as a book coach and an editor, what would you say are the three things that a writer needs to think about first when they are planning or writing a story in the fantasy genre?

SPEAKER_00 10:32

This probably bleeds over into other genres too, but I think some more fantasy or speculative fiction specific ones are that they still need to ground readers in the familiar in order to get them to survive leaps into the unknown. It's a blend that brain science has shown as necessary for keeping an audience engaged in art because too much familiar equals boredom, right? But so does too much newness because it's all just confusing noise at that point. Um there's a study on music that was fascinating. You can have a familiar melody and it can get stuck in your head and it's annoying. But if you have that familiar melody kind of as maybe a core bass or something, and then there's some riffs on it and stuff like that, it makes it new and interesting and exciting, but there's something to kind of start with. If you just have a toddler plunking on the piano, it's all too new. And it's noise, and it's that's also boring and irritating in its own way. So, you know, they don't have to go changing every law of physics or something just to create something original and engaging because good story is just good story, even the supernatural elements of fantasy don't change those core universal structures that we intrinsically expect as humans. But those expectations are key, as we noted. That means uh market research and conventions are still very important for success in the genre and learning how to set and fulfill those expectations through solid craft knowledge. So you don't need to go all new and you still need to follow like those universal story structures for good story. And then the third one I would say is don't let the fantastical and all that goes with it, like the world building magic systems, overwhelm you before you know what your story arc is. It's fine to be inspired by, you know, whatever what if question or fantasy setting idea got you excited, but then you need to decide how that's going to support the story you're actually telling underneath that all.

SPEAKER_01 12:53

That's a great takeaway. So, how would you describe the story arc to someone who's completely brand new to this?

SPEAKER_00 13:01

I tie the story arc pretty tightly into the internal struggle and conflict of the protagonist. So, whatever that protagonist's journey is, wherever they need to get to by the end of that story to change for better or worse, depending on what better supports the message you're trying to tell with your story. But yeah, the arc is really supporting some message you're trying to tell with your story, which happens through that internal character journey. And the external stuff is usually the metaphor for that internal journey.

SPEAKER_01 13:34

I love that. Yeah. So I like to frame it like keep it real simple. There's somebody, they have a problem, will they solve it? And how? And who they are will speak to how they go about managing that, right? And that will speak to, well, I mean, it is this, are they going to have to uncover things? Is there a mystery? Did something happen? Yeah. So it's kind of like it's the the who, what, and why. Yeah. And how does it all turn out, right? Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:07

And that's all part of that arc.

SPEAKER_01 14:08

Yeah, exactly. Right. Okay. So you said ground the readers in the familiar, which a lot of fantasy writers, I think, just breathe a little easier. You don't have to change everything. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:19

Yes, it makes it so much easier.

SPEAKER_01 14:21

And then understand what we like to call the spine of the story. What's giving it legs, right? What's making it giving it legs on the page and run around? And then don't let the fantastical override everything. And for that, you have to know your main conflict.

SPEAKER_00 14:36

Yeah. At some point you need to first like what's the problem? Yep. What's the actual story about? And then you can kind of go back and see how those original inspirations of the fantastical can help support that.

SPEAKER_01 14:51

Well, let's talk a little bit more about magic systems. So let's start by talking about what a magic system is and what it's designed to do, because it is definitely one of the places I see writers run away into the fantastical and not necessarily think about how it is applying to narrative arc or aiding in that answer of what's the story at its core. So let's start with magic systems. What's a magic system, Gina?

SPEAKER_00 15:21

A magic system is simply the set of rules, limitations, abilities that define the supernatural forces in your fantasy world. But as you touched on, it isn't useful in a story unless it's there to enhance the story arc and immersive experience. Right? We like the whys. If there's not a good why, like why does it need to have this magic system? Why does it have to have a magic system at all? Like, what does even the fantasy or speculative part of the genre do to enhance it? Those are all the questions that I like to make sure we have an answer for. Because if we don't know those whys, it's kind of just, I don't know, extra work.

SPEAKER_01 16:04

So let's give an example. Can you think of any example of how, you know, a magic system works to enhance the story and doesn't just feel tacked on?

SPEAKER_00 16:14

I think the Lord of the Rings has a pretty basic one with, I mean, so the magic system is actually really soft there, right? Like we don't know a lot about it, but we do know a few like rules and limitations and characteristics that the ring has, right? The one ring has, you know, every time Frodo puts it on, it alerts Sauron or like there's like a draw to the eye. So we know it has that. And what does that do? And and yeah, so what does all that do? Well, one of Frodo's really core things is being afraid of corruption. You know, he is afraid that he's going to be corrupted. And so his arc is really like the struggle against that. And so that ring, the temptation of it to put it on, you know, so it has that like the ring itself has kind of that pull, and then it also pulls the eye of something very evil, you know, all of that helps enhance that struggle even more because, well, and of course, in The Lord of the Rings, it actually becomes about the ring. So it's not just a tacked on thing. It is like one of the things that's really driving everything to make that arc just come right to the top. But it doesn't always have to be like that direct either. I actually had a client who was working on a story where the protagonist has these supernatural abilities that he doesn't really understand and he loses complete control whenever they sort of take over and like he uses them. So he doesn't even like know what's going on. Like he's completely out of control. Well, guess what? His internal arc is he needs to learn about, you know, like what's on like what he's able to control, what he needs when he needs to let go of control, you know, because he tries to control so much in every aspect of his life that it's very, you know, it's very tense, it's very rigid. And this magic directly impacts that by making him not be in control. And then there's this really awesome climactic moment where he sort of lets go of that control, like he finally just kind of concedes to it, and he that actually gives him control because then he's aware of what he's doing with these powers. That is just such a great one that I've worked on that I feel like is a nice example of how that can just be worked into that actual arc of your story and enhance it and highlight it.

SPEAKER_01 18:41

And it touches the the whole point and the whole theme and the conflict, right? All of that is working back to reflect into this overarching takeaway. Yeah. Yeah. I love, I love that. Okay, so how can a writer approach building out a magic system that works for their world to satisfy their readers?

SPEAKER_00 19:04

So a strong magic system will fulfill reader expectations, add purpose to the story, and give readers that immersive experience they crave. So to do that, I like to start by brainstorming what might make an awesome magical metaphor for the thing I'm really trying to say in a story and turn that into a magic system. I mean, it's also a very iterative process, right? I don't think any writer like knows every piece going into it. So it's a layering process. They might have an idea for a magic system before they have anything else. And that's fine, as long as in the end they can kind of figure out, like, okay, is was there a reason for that? You know, did they have this cool idea for a magic system because it's actually kind of like poking at something deeper they wanted to talk about? Like low magic systems can be really good for poking at themes of class or control. But the practical piece is understanding the types of magic systems so you don't have to get overwhelmed with every possible option that you could come up with. So these types are really spectrums that live on a quadrant from soft to hard magic and low to high magic. So every magic system will either be more soft or more hard and more low or more high. So there's going to be one of each of those. So to define those, so soft versus hard is pretty easy. It's like a blur setting on a photo editor. It's the less defined the system is, the softer it is. The more defined with more explicit rules, the harder it is. So that one's pretty cut and dry. Low to high, sometimes it seems a little harder to describe, but I like to think of it as like a measure of the magic or a temperature setting. You're kind of increasing the heat, like the power and the explosiveness. Low magic means smaller measure and high magic means like a higher measure of the magic in the world. So I think that's maybe the simplest way to think of it, but there is a little more nuance to that because we have like high fantasy and low fantasy, and it does kind of tie to those genres, but it's more about like low magic being the controlled, limited, more underground kind of magic. High magic is that that grander, more out in the open, abundant kind, you know, wizards waving around staffs and stuff. So what would you say is a good example of a high magic system? Anything by Brandon Sanderson? So Mistborn, Light Archive Books, all of those very high magic type systems.

SPEAKER_01 21:58

And for low magic systems.

SPEAKER_00 22:00

Game of Thrones, Dresden, where it's a little more underground, secretive, or it's just not really there. I think of low magic as the kind where it's kind of like our world. If we saw something supernatural, we would think it really strange. So kind of the more people that would think of it that way, it's probably closer to a lower magic system. It's not common, it's more unexpected. Yeah, that makes sense.

SPEAKER_01 22:29

Now let's talk about the other side of the quadrant, which is from soft to hard.

SPEAKER_00 22:35

Yeah. So soft, that's the blur setting. So the softer it is, we don't know as much about it. It's more mysterious. So with the Lord of the Rings, we don't really know a lot about how the magic works or its limitations and all of that. We do have some things because that's always necessary, but it's harder to define. It's not like Brandon Sanderson, where we have like a list of metals and all of their abilities and these crazy charts or definitions for everything, you know, that readers can like study and nerd out about and really dive into. Like that's the harder system where you know exactly what it is.

SPEAKER_01 23:18

Hey writer, it's Dacey here. I'm pausing the interview really quick because I wanted to jump in and just acknowledge that talking about these magic systems and the quadrant that Gina is discussing is hard to visualize. And I wanted to let you know that Gina has an excellent blog post with an amazing graphic that will help you wrap your head around this a little more easily and visualize these four core types of magic systems and how they exist on this quadrant and the spectrum between high and low and soft and hard. And she also gives examples of where well-known books sit on this quadrant. So I'm going to link that resource for you in the show notes, but I just wanted to pause here and acknowledge that this is a concept that is probably more easily understood once you're able to visualize it. So now let's jump back into our interview. So now that we've defined the four core types of magic and how they exist on this quadrant or spectrum, how does a writer choose like what's best for them and what's best for their story?

SPEAKER_00 24:23

Again, I think this is part of that iterative process. We you may not just be able to like, you know, go plunk. I'm right here on this quadrant, and that's where my magic system is. But just knowing the quadrant, knowing the definitions, it gives you somewhere to start. You know, we know that we can make a magic system that can be more mysterious, or we can make it more like a science. But that doesn't mean it couldn't be either low or high, meaning it could be a very structured system, but it's still more underground or it's tightly controlled, or it could be a soft and high system where you don't know as much about the limits and definitions of the magic system, but it's pretty pervasive and it's pretty everywhere. I mean, I would say Narnia is a good example of soft and high because I I mean that is a very high fantasy world. It's just we don't know as much about what the limitations uh are of the, yeah, how we don't know how the magic works as well because it's just it's the deeper magic and it's such a divine and overpowering force of nature. It's the you know creative force of it all. So it's you you can't define that. That's kind of the point. So it's like if you want your magic system to feel like it is more mysterious and we can't define it because it's this great force. Well, maybe that's because you're trying to say something about that that would help support versus the other way around for your particular story. So I like to start figuring out like where to put yourself on that spectrum or how to use that spectrum by really coming up with what are you trying to say through your novel? What's that message? What's that story arc? What's the internal struggle of the character? And then see what could be the metaphor for that. Now that you know this quadrant, you're able to understand how that might work. Like, okay, you can start to decide, okay, maybe I want my magic system to be something like this, and like, oh, that actually sounds more like a soft magic system. Well, that means it kind of matches some of these books. You know, it could just help brainstorm what might work best for your story to support the themes that you're trying to get across.

SPEAKER_01 26:54

That's such a good takeaway. And what you said earlier about it's an iterative process. So I don't think any writer is going to step up to the plate and be like, I'm writing this. Exactly. I mean, uh, the ideas don't come that way. It's just like this amalgam, right? Of, you know, ooh, this is a cool place. And what if I had a character that did this? And everybody starts different. Some people start with settings, some people start with character, some people start with a situation. And so, but from there, whatever you start with, you expand on your ideas and extrapolate. And then knowing what these different types of magic systems are, then you can start to like mix and match or play or pick around and be like, oh, what books did I like? Why? What fantasy books and what magic systems was I interested in and why? And then how can I play with that in my own story and change it around? So I think that's really great. Iteration is the key. You don't have to know it all like from the get-go. That's impossible.

SPEAKER_00 27:54

Yeah, but knowing more about how these systems work and how they can be structured doesn't leave you so overwhelmed with everything because you can start to narrow it down, I think, easier by having this template or quadrant to work with.

SPEAKER_01 28:13

So, what would you say are some common mental struggles and blocks that come up for writers who are designing magic systems and working on building fantasy worlds? And do you have any advice for how they can move past whatever it is that's blocking them?

SPEAKER_00 28:29

Yeah. I think the top ones that come up, especially for this genre, I mean being worried that no one else will care about the story they love so much, wondering if it's all just a waste of time. Like I think it looks in writers like overwhelm or endless research holes that serve as a procrastination or a self-sabotage tool to avoid that kind of judgment, or and you know, they never want to get those other eyes on their work. They do, but they don't. They do what they don't. They want other eyes on their work, but they're afraid of what they're gonna hear.

SPEAKER_01 29:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:08

So it it's kind of a yeah, it's a procrastination thing. And and magic systems world building, that is a easy procrastination. And it is enjoyable. I mean, it is fun, and they love it so much. That's the thing, I think, is when you create this fantasy world, it's so yours, it's so your imagination. It's you playing on your parents' farm and the unique things that you would imagine. So who else would care about that? I think that's why it comes up so much because it's not just, you know, a realistic contemporary type of story that has the more relatable issues that you think of when you think of relating to a character, but it it has all these different pieces from your very personal and unique imagination. And so being worried that no one else is going to care about this thing you love so much and have been creating and working on for so long. That's a that's a big one.

SPEAKER_01 30:04

And how can writers move past that? What's something they can anchor into to help them?

SPEAKER_00 30:09

The very thing they fear, the getting other eyes on their work, because that's actually the thing that helps the most. The kind of eyes do matter. You know, we don't need more traumatizing critique experiences, but getting other eyes. I always recommend professional if possible, if you know, it's somebody who's really scared or hesitant about getting feedback because professionals, well, good professionals know how to provide really good caring feedback. But also finding that community, you know, that's one of the things that comes up again and again in my coaching group is that most authors who come in are really hesitant about the group aspect for all the aforementioned reasons. But in a safe, curated space with clear boundaries, it's been so helpful for these authors to see that they're not doing any of this alone and they're in it together. I mean, it sounds so cliche, but it couldn't be more true, right? Like it's like a cozy group of nerd friends that are all there for each other and they're all doing those things and they all care about their stories uh in the same way. So it's other people who get it. So I mean, getting those other eyes, but I also like to offer up that science, the why. So, you know, just working on your story is good for you. Brain science says so. So it's absolutely not a waste of time, like no matter what happens with it, it's a worthy endeavor for meaning making. And there was, yeah, this article about how just the act of making meaning, you know, can really like enhance the health of our brains, basically, and just our well-being. So it doesn't matter in the end if nobody cares. I mean, I I know that's hard, but it means it can still be a worthy endeavor for you, even if you don't end up ever sharing it.

SPEAKER_01 32:11

Yeah. And that's such a good point. I mean, it's asking the person to look at where their validity is coming from. Is it being externally driven, which we can't control anyway? Or can they find a way to make it internally driven? And for me, one of the things that is key is just like to put try to put the blinders on, don't look around, just narrow the focus and just whatever the one, the singular next right thing is in front of you. Just do that. That's what you gotta do today. That's it. Yeah, that's so good. Instead of yeah, instead of trying to take in the breadth of everything's around you. And yeah, yeah, that's hard. Well, are there any myths about writing in the fantasy genre that you want to bust here?

SPEAKER_00 33:02

The one where it has to be original, like completely original. Because of course, new ideas are created from novel combinations of existing elements. So yeah, we can stop trying so hard to do something that's never been done before. Rather, we can focus on what really supports the story we're trying to tell. So that's part of that creativity brain science. I originally started with was like how new ideas are created. And yeah, it really takes down that anxiety of influence.

SPEAKER_01 33:34

I love that. It lets you breathe kind of a sigh of relief if you just don't have to worry, you know, so much about is it enough? Am I enough? Is it good enough? You know, yes, because it came from you. Doesn't mean it's perfect and it'll always, you can always make it improve upon it. So in this vein of myth busting and helping writers with the emotional side of writing this genre, is there any beloved piece of writing wisdom that you have held on to or that you encourage your clients to hang on to?

SPEAKER_00 34:06

It's the one I've actually mentioned quite a few times already. It's that writing is an iterative process. But there's another piece to that because it's an iterative process. So that means nothing is lost because everything that came before was a necessary layer to get you to this iteration. That's actually courtesy of a client. She decided that she wasn't spiraling, she was going up in these ever-growing layers. I totally get it. No words are wasted. No words are wasted. Nope. She needed everything that came before. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 34:42

And it's funny whenever I talk to like a new writer or a new to me writer that is working on a fantasy story. They always come in and they're so kind of nervous to share. Like, because you know, I ask, well, what's the story about? And they're like, and I know that. I know that pause because it's what they're thinking is like, well, to understand the story forward, you have to know all of that back there. And I'm like, I I get it. I know exactly what you're thinking right now. So just tell me the backstory first.

SPEAKER_00 35:19

Oh, it's so true. But the uh yeah, I mean, that's that's it, right? It's like, okay, do you understand what you just asked? Like, this has been my passion and my nerd thing for the last how many years? And now, like, suddenly, like, do you want the pithy answer? Or are they right?

SPEAKER_01 35:35

Do you actually want me to like you really want me to like the deep dive? Dive off the cliff here. I'm like, no, no, no, dive, dive, dive. This is funny. It's very common with yes. And and also that's true for writers writing mystery or thriller. They're like, well, you're gonna go way back. So, but anyway, okay, ask every guest what is a wish that you would like to impart to emerging fantasy authors? What's something you want them to hold on to?

SPEAKER_00 36:07

That we need to keep longing and hoping. And there's no better genre to help us do that than the speculative kind. So, yeah, we need your story. It's a worthy endeavor, not only for your own well-being and meaning making, but for other readers too.

SPEAKER_01 36:26

Oh, so well said. So well said. So, what are you currently working on or offering, and where can listeners find you?

SPEAKER_00 36:34

I am gearing up to host the next Critique Partner meetup call on June 1st for the Critique Partner program, where I provide training and community for effective critique partnerships to help authors have that safe way to get other eyes on their work. And any science fiction or fantasy authors listening can get it at 50% off. So it just means it's $27 for lifetime access. So that's the thing I'm gearing up to do. And, you know, if they want to find a safe place to get those all important other eyes, that's kind of my next thing here. Great. Awesome.

SPEAKER_01 37:16

Well, I'll make sure to pop a link to that in the show notes. And then where can people find you on YouTube? That's important. Your YouTube channel is phenomenal.

SPEAKER_00 37:25

Thank you. On YouTube, I'm at Gina Cammer. That's G-I-N-A-K-A-M-M-E-R. And my website is another place they can find me. That's inkybookworm.com, worm with a Y. We're dragons here. And yeah, I mean, I currently have a few open spots in my full service enchant your readers book coaching program, which they can find there too. So yeah, inkybookworm.com, YouTube at Gina Canner.

SPEAKER_01 37:51

All right. Thank you so much, Gina, for coming on the podcast. It has been a delight to have you, and I will see you next time. Thank you for listening to the Write It Scared podcast. If you enjoyed today's show, please make sure to hit the follow button so you never miss an episode. And please leave a review. Reviews help other writers like you find the voices and messages they need to hear to continue to write their stories. Let's lift each other up. Remember, you can be scared and still be unstoppable. I'll see you next week.