After We Put the World on Wheels

It's Season 2 of Common Groundwater! We'll be taking this podcast on the road across the state to the places where the problems, stories and solutions to the topics we talk about are happening. Plus, we'll be leaning on you, the listener, to ask us questions and shape our discussions. We can't wait!

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Now's the time to expand transit. Well, we at the Environmental Council would argue any time’s a good time. But with a rising cost of living, swelling support and major state funding discussions, Michigan has a unique opportunity to capitalize on the moment and reverse the longstanding trend of disinvestment. 

Ross Gavin, the Environmental Council's urban land use and infrastructure policy director, has more.

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Learn about transportation efforts and opportunities through the Michigan Environmental Council. You can also subscribe via email and follow on Facebook, Instagram or LinkedIn.

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Common Groundwater is hosted by the Michigan Environmental Council and Beau Brockett Jr.

Our music is "The Four Seasons" by Antonio Vivaldi, arranged by Derek Zhang and performed by Jackson resident Taj Wallace.

Transcript

After We Put the World on Wheels

[00:00:00] 

Beau Brockett Jr.: Hey folks, you are tuning into Common Groundwater, a podcast by the Michigan Environmental Council where we talk about environmental issues that are felt deeply and widely across the state. We tell local stories around them, and then we talk solutions to them. I'm Beau Brockett, your host, and I'm joined today by Ross Gavin, the, Urban Land Use and Infrastructure Policy Director at the Environmental Council.

Great. Thanks for having me. Thanks for joining us. 

Ross Gavin: Thanks for having me. 

Beau Brockett Jr.: Yeah, no problem. You are an extra special guest, not only in the fact that you are you, and that's special enough, but also because you are the first guest of our second season of Common Groundwater. And for folks listening, you might notice a few changes from here on out.

We created the name Common Groundwater partly because we wanted to be [00:01:00] able to talk about issues , felt widely and deeply across the state, much like how groundwater is found widely and deeply across the state. And so in this season, we'll be going literally to communities to talk to folks about some of these bigger, headier topics we're talking about to contextualize it all.

And then we want to lead into the phrase common within Common Groundwater by encouraging you, the listener, to share your own thoughts, your questions, your insights with us so that we can implement those, into the course of our podcast whether those be direct responses within our podcast episodes or as a way to help us shape the topics.

So really excited for the episodes ahead and Ross I feel like we have a perfect topic to kick things off with and that is transit. I feel like that's a great topic because people across the state use it. I think it's found in every county across the state. It truly is a statewide issue, and it feels like there's a lot of movement right now to really make it better to expand its funding.

And that's what we're here to talk [00:02:00] about today. 

Ross Gavin: Yeah. Yeah. That's, that's great. first of all, thank you again for having me. This is great. I'm really excited to be on here with you. and really, yeah, just to kick it off a little bit for, from my perspective, transportation is really the through line for everyday living.

I, we, I walk my kid to school. So whether it be pedestrian infrastructure, walking your kid to school, taking a bus to work, riding a bike to the park or, driving a car to the doctor's office. And we're all part of this broader transportation system. and if all the parts of that system are not really working like they need to for folks, then people are getting left behind.

I think this is where public transit really plays a key part in this discussion. 

Beau Brockett Jr.: Great. Would you mind talking a little bit about your own transit or public transit experience, whether that's from the professional level or from a more personal level? 

Ross Gavin: Yeah, absolutely. So I grew up in the thumb, which I know your thumb adjacent as well.

And I, frankly, I lived under the misconception that public transit was more of a big city issue. we were two- car family, home and [00:03:00] growing up, that was the frame of reference that I had, in my professional journey. I've certainly had my eyes open to a different way of thinking and the fact that the need really is everywhere.

And really just takes different forms. So whether that kind of be a bus in Detroit, or, microtransit and shuttles or curb- to- curb small bus service, in Sanilac County, or in the UP, that need really is everywhere. And I've professionally, I've it's, been nice to have that eye opening experience.

But even before kind of the, this role at MEC, when I moved to Metro Detroit, I would then start to interact more with the transportation system because I would take the bus down to law school at Wayne State. and frankly, I, what I saw was that, the real, there are real gaps in the system.

And that is in no small part because of just continual underfunding, of our public transit system. And when I was riding those buses, I got to know the drivers who love this line of work, who [00:04:00] realize its importance, who put their all into it for other people, and I got to frequently know other passengers and like I said, really got to see where there were deficiencies in that system.

Beau Brockett Jr.: That's great. 

I love that holistic, almost, approach unintentionally to transit where you started out in the small town. Maybe realize later on about the, like, how people use transit there. There's a need there. And it went on to the big city, too. Yeah, growing up, Thumb adjacent, was really interesting because, 15 minutes south where I lived was the edge of Macomb County, which if Macomb is very sprawly at that point.

It's very wide, lots of, large roads, strip mall, subdivisions. But yeah, and 15 minutes north of us was the thick of the Thumb, which was, very rural, lots of small towns. And like you, very car dependent, at least my family was to get from place to place, partly because we had to travel to places to get to a lot of our needs.

At the same time, my [00:05:00] grandpa was a SMART bus driver. so as our neighbor, so public transit was always there at the fringes of my life, but now as an adult, I've realized how much more, like plentiful it is across the state and I'm beginning to use it more now too, in an as- needed basis.

So yeah. Sure. Yeah. I thought it'd be really great to ground not only this episode, but maybe episodes ahead around transit in just a more general sense. Could you give us like the overarching look of, transit, whether that be, what it looks like community to community, how it's funded, how it operates, where it's located generally.

Ross Gavin: Yeah, absolutely. as you indicated, Beau, it's, it really is found across the state and it really does take many different forms. so what I was talking about from local buses, like we see with SMART, in the metro area or DDOT in Detroit, or to CATA in Lansing or Cadillac- Wexford or all the way up in Gogebic County to that pedestrian and biking infrastructure, to passenger [00:06:00] and freight rail-- so passenger, like we see with Amtrak-- to maritime, ferries, so a ferry, like you might take over to Beaver Island, to air travel. Transit really is all around us to move us as individuals and goods that we end up purchasing.

Specifically for the busing side of things, it's operated by transit agencies. So there's over 70 of them around the state. You've got the airports and some other forms of transportation that are operated by authorities created under state statute and a lot of the funding, you know, depending on what we're talking which form of public transit we're talking about comes from federal dollars, state dollars, local communities, folks certainly vote on millages not only at the municipal level, but at the county level. In Oakland County where I live , we just passed a millage a couple of years back. It really takes a lot of different forms, but the main. and at the risk of putting your listeners to sleep, talk a little bit about the, the Act 51 formula, which is really the public act, that distributes [00:07:00] road funding throughout the state.

Yeah. So the overall kind of, fund that it's called is the Michigan Transportation Fund. So that includes stuff for road fixes that includes public transit. And it's mostly funded by the gas tax that you pay at the pump, or vehicle registration fees. very crudely, within that fund, there's another fund called the Comprehensive Transportation Fund, the CTF. And that is the one that does funding for public transit. So that's again, the buses, trains, ferries, transit capital, all that kind of stuff. it gets, the CTF gets roughly about 10 percent of those total dollars with the other 90 percent going to local, county and state roads. Within that, there's a, breakdown about percentages to each of those things. for those of us advocating for increased, public transit as part of any transportation funding, it's being called, a lot of times being called road funding that you'll hear in the media right now.

We're trying to change that narrative a little bit. And as a reminder that it's transportation funding, cause it's the entire system. It's not just roads, although [00:08:00] roads certainly do need it. I, sit on my, city council in the city where I live. And so I can tell you firsthand that even with the millage that we have, to fix up some of the roads, still need it.

They still need a lot of funding. But as a public transit advocate, we really want to make sure that this money does go through the Act 51 formula because transit will be left behind if it's really not. If it bypasses that formula, you're getting less money into that comprehensive transportation fund.

And of course, that means less money for, local bus operating and a whole host of other forms of public transportation. I think, like I indicated before , the main issue, and we can certainly talk about a little bit more, is just this critical underfunding of our transportation system holistically.

I think that with the fact that, we haven't done as good of a job as the state in funding our transportation system, it really has put us in a little bit of a bind. 

Beau Brockett Jr.: Yeah. You mentioned the, I love this idea of switching, the phraseology around, [00:09:00] road funding to transportation funding, making it more holistic.

That's what, in theory, it is already and should continue to be, with perhaps a little bit more emphasis. 

One other thing I hear a lot around road funding, too, is that just how far behind Michigan is around road funding. How, there's a lot of catch up needed. And it sounds like transit has even more catch up to do in the longer we put off, making better, more equitable investments in, in, in transit, the farther behind we're just going to keep becoming.

Ross Gavin: Absolutely. 

Yeah. 

Yeah. And to that point, we created this vicious loop, I think, here in Michigan when it comes to public transportation. like we talked about that kind of the chronic underfunding. 

Just to put a finer point on it, about 25 years ago, the state of Michigan would cover operating expenses for rural transit agencies at 60 percent.

So they pay for 60 percent of that . For urban transit agencies, it was 50 percent. Fast forward to today and we're looking at numbers closer to 35 percent and 30 percent [00:10:00] respectively. So we've seen a precipitous drop of the amount of money that the state is giving transit agencies to cover operating expenses.

Coupled with the fact, and I know everybody , can relate to this, prices just keep going up. And so as another kind of fine point, another example, in the last four or five years in the Metro Detroit region, the top five transit providers have seen their operating expenses shoot up 45 percent. So at the same time, we're dropping again, getting all that money from the state to transit agencies, the costs are just skyrocketing. 

That frankly, that leads to gaps , in service, gaps in frequency. And so that's really where we find ourselves at this point. 

Beau Brockett Jr.: Okay. 

You mentioned that we are facing a vicious loop of transit funding when it comes to the state. Are there any other sorts of big problems that you see in your day- to- day role as like a transit advocate that you feel like need to be addressed?

Ross Gavin: Yeah. that's a great question. Historically we've seen, and this is not really the case anymore, and we can get into it a little bit later, but historically the, auto industry has been a little bit of a barrier [00:11:00] to building out a public transit system.

Decades ago, there was the kind of the focus on the single- occupancy vehicle. That's changing now, because of workforce needs and things like that, and the desires of, a younger workforce. But I think the other one really to highlight. Besides the underfunding and besides the kind of historical influence there, was really land use decisions.

The fact that we've, and you talked a little bit about sprawl earlier, the fact that we have , moved away from more dense kind of, housing options and really built out mass sprawl throughout our state, it really has made it harder to actually put together a transportation system that works for everybody.

Beau Brockett Jr.: Yeah, that definitely makes sense. If we're working on expanding transit, not only do we need to go over this sort of marketing barrier almost, of having people realize that transit's available, that it can be convenient for them that it works for them, but you also have to build it on [00:12:00] top of something that's built not for transit to be there.

Exactly correct. That's, yeah, that's, yeah, a great, not a great, a greatly terrible double barrier, that we face. Maybe this marks a little bit of a pivot point. You mentioned that, there's maybe some historical tensions with the auto industry. Michigan was, very much the state that put the world on wheels, so to speak.

We really expanded international use of the personal automobile, and yet, as you mentioned, there's also, 70 transit agencies across the state. Could you talk a little bit about like the use of transit? I take it if we want funding this bad, obviously, people are using it.

Yeah. And people want to keep using it. Is that a fair assessment? 

Ross Gavin: Absolutely. Yeah. And I, I'll certainly say cars are, in the blood of Michiganders, and, certainly our storied history, and a key pillar of the future too, no doubt. but two things can be true at the same time.

Where many folks like the option of cars, many also see that need for [00:13:00] that comprehensive public transportation system. whether, again, to get to the work, to, get to work, to get to the doctor, to get to the grocery store. but to your point, in 2024 alone, when transit millages appeared on ballots around the state, voters approved a total of 85 percent of those millages.

So the desire is there, the need, is clearly there and people recognize that need. and so I think that number in and of itself, really shows that there is a high level of support around the state for, various forms of public transportation. And I would also add to that, just in terms of, not only operating as a need for folks, it does also operate as a social interaction for individuals.

They really, they get to interact more with folks, get to know their bus drivers or get to know their, transit operators. And so it, it really does act as like a social, interacting net as well. 

Beau Brockett Jr.: That's great. I like that perspective. I've often heard of transit as like a great way to de stress your travel.

If you're driving everywhere personally, it [00:14:00] can be very stressful or it just saps your time. Yeah. Whereas transit will allow you to read a book or listen to music a little bit more intensely. I like the social aspect too, I hadn't thought of that. 

Ross Gavin: Yeah, and even to put another point on it, too, my wife and son and I, took the train to Chicago a little while back and it was so much fun, obviously less stressful than trying to drive in Chicago or anything like that.

But just riding on the train and being able to, play cards or whatever the case may be, it just, it adds more value, it adds a quality of life thing. 

Beau Brockett Jr.: Yeah, that's great. I'm really excited. In an episode ahead to talk about, perspectives from transit agencies themselves, but then also from some folks my age and younger about transit and how they use it.

And I think some of the stuff you've mentioned are really, I'm hoping, I'm guessing will be hit on in those episodes ahead. So that gets me excited that I was on the right track thinking wise for these episodes. 

Ross, we spent time talking about the lay of the land. [00:15:00] With transit, it's very much found across the state. People use it a lot, people support it a lot through millages, but a major funding component, has somewhat continuously been disinvested in or, it brushed aside a little bit over the years.

But as I also mentioned at the start of this podcast episode, it feels like there's a little bit of there's always been movement around transit, but especially so this time of year.

You had just attended a transit advocacy day at the Capitol, 100 people showed up to talk about transit to their legislators. There was buses lined up at the Capitol lawn. Could you talk a little bit about what the scene was like, what you guys were talking about, advocating for?

Ross Gavin: Yeah, absolutely. First of all, great event. Absolutely wonderful chance to make sure legislators understand the stories behind the numbers. And we actually had a couple of folks who had said that it's they, they constantly are immersed in, budget and stuff like that. and so it was nice to actually hear folks, and hear their stories and how they interact [00:16:00] with the transportation system as opposed to just seeing the line item in the budget.

We had talked about the desperate need, like we had said, to, fully fund our transportation system, and that includes public, transit. Huge shout out to Megan Owens at Transportation Riders United, John Dulmes at, Michigan Public, Transit Association for their work in getting it together.

Was really a great event. We had transit agency directors , from around the state again from Lansing, Detroit, Sanilac County, Wexford, Gogebic County in the U. P. And then of course, like the public transit advocates that you had said, who took the bus up here to, to be able to talk about why they, why it desperately needs more funding.

So the diversity of the coalition, and the diversity of the geography of the coalition really highlights that need that we had talked about and emphasizes the fact that it really is a statewide issue. the big thing that, you know, that, they got, I, was one of the team leaders of a team of public transit advocates.

And so I would try to set the scene a little bit about kind of the history and the [00:17:00] funding shortages and then sit back and let the real stars of the show talk about, the daily interaction they have with the public transit system. And, one of the lovely ladies that was in our group, her name is Dawn. And Dawn, I think she hit the nail on the head with the need because, about 2016, Dawn was driving down 696 and her whole right side of her body started to go numb.

And so fortunately she was able to get over, park, and she was having a stroke and she has not driven a car one day since, since that happened. And so she depends for her livelihood on public transit and the busing system and, , again, getting to the doctor, getting to the grocery store. If we do not fund transit at that level that we need to fund public transit at, people like Dawn's life are going to change, continue to change and not for the better. We'll continue to advocate to legislators, throughout the budget process, throughout this transportation [00:18:00] funding, proposal, volleying that we see back and forth from, leaders in Lansing.

And so we'll, we'll try to make sure that stories like Dawn's, and the rest of these folks at this transit advocacy day, really get amplified to legislators when they're making their decisions. 

Beau Brockett Jr.: Yeah. Love that. And at the same time, I know that, folks like Megan and John that you mentioned, I think you yourself helped put together a transit caucus of sorts at the Legislature, too.

Would you mind talking a little bit about that? 

Ross Gavin: Yeah, absolutely. So I do think there is that big role to play for the transit caucus. This was, Representative Jason Morgan, Representative McFall, Mike McFall , have been transit champions in the Legislature and yeah, they started this transit caucus, which got a huge number of folks, bipartisan as well, which is always a good thing.

 I think there's a real chance for the legislators to be able to help educate other legislators about why this is important, why this is a huge issue. And so like you indicate I sit on the steering committee to help figure out what we want to do or [00:19:00] what they want to do as a transit caucus. And so yeah, I think there's big opportunities for it for sure 

Beau Brockett Jr.: Very cool.

Again, as I mentioned a little bit earlier, I'm really excited for the episodes ahead to hopefully talk to some folks like Dawn, some drivers, some transit directors, about what they're seeing at a more local level. And so I'd hate to ask you a whole bunch more stories from the transit advocacy day, but I am curious like what were some of the specific sort of policy priorities or funding agenda items that, that you and the crew were advocating for, on that day.

Ross Gavin: Yeah. The big one is really just getting money into the local bus operating, line item of the budget. Yeah. the, certainly again, there is a need for passenger rail, there's a need for increased funding for , all of public transit. But the one we were really focused on at this public transit advocacy day, was really the local bus operating section of it and making sure that we fill those gaps in the system.

One other gentleman who was in our group, Schetrone, he was a bus driver in Detroit for over [00:20:00] 30 years. He's now the president of his local, amalgamated transportation union.

So he saw firsthand, like literally got to see firsthand, the deficiencies in the system for over 30 years. And he would tell stories about how, because of the fact that there'd be overcrowding on buses because there weren't enough services, there weren't enough buses, there weren't enough drivers, there weren't enough mechanics to help fix buses that, there would be long gaps between, when someone will be having to wait for a bus. And he would have to literally because his bus would be so full, there's some times he'd have to leave people at the stop and they'd have to wait, for another hour before a bus would come. he really did a great job of highlighting, where the gaps are, why the need is as great as it is.

But yeah, so that was, the big thing was advocating for more funding into that local bus operating section of the budget. 

Beau Brockett Jr.: And I really like that take that you and advocates that seem to have too, which is acknowledging the need and the want for transit and the goodness that it can bring. But then also not being afraid to say there's a [00:21:00] reason why we're asking for this money.

Yeah. Like there, there are gaps that we're seeing in the system, whether that be, buses arriving on time or there being enough buses for folks, et cetera, et cetera. I really appreciate that sort of like nuance. Like very honest, open perspective you all brought. 

Ross Gavin: Yeah. Yeah. legislators need to really know why they're allocating the money the way they're allocating the money.

And if it, again, if it's just numbers on a paper, it's very easy to, it's very easy to slash a number. And so if they don't understand the context behind, and the need behind why that number is there and why more should be added to it, then, yeah, it's, they can't really be blamed in a lot of ways.

Beau Brockett Jr.: yeah, I think so. 

So you, we, we have a transit caucus in the Legislature.

There's also a lot of budget talks going on right now for setting Michigan's multi- billion dollar budget. what are you hearing from Legislators themselves or from elected officials themselves when it comes to transit right now? 

Ross Gavin: Yeah, absolutely. So the, governor put out her executive recommended, recommended budget, which again has the line items for, public [00:22:00] transit.

We're always trying to, like I said, look for more funding and especially into that local bus operating, line item. but even as part of the broader road funding debate or transportation funding debate, the governor put out, her proposal. there was 250 million allocated, or proposed for, public transit funding and her proposal, which we're obviously a very big fan of that would certainly fill a lot of gaps and allow for increased and improved services. The House Republicans also introduced some legislation, some of which, we see potential with. but the problem is that not all of it would go through that Act 51 formula that we were talking about. So by the time it's all the way distilled down to public transit, again, you take that, they're, they put out essentially a 3 billion proposal.

One billion of which would go through the Act 51 formula. So by the time you, again, distill that down, 90 percent of that one billion is going to go to roads, and then 10 percent to the transit transportation fund. And again, that [00:23:00] kind of not only funds bus, but it funds all sorts of public transit.

We believe that there is, work that can be done, to improve all the proposals that have been put forward, right now. We get that some people don't like the Act 51 formula. And, again, I get that. but part of the ask has been then just make sure you're carving out funds for transit that, if you're not going through that formula.

Beau Brockett Jr.: Yeah, really making sure that there's funding, not only this year for this fiscal year, but also years ahead. Exactly. Yeah, that's great. And it seems to be especially important too because, we mentioned millages earlier, which are like the local funding for transit or other sorts of public services.

But if you have consistent state funding, you're having a consistent almost guaranteed sort of funding stream for these local transit agencies. 

Ross Gavin: Yeah, that's actually that's a really good point, Beau. I appreciate you bringing that up because while we appreciated some one time funding last year that came into the local bus operating portion of it when you don't continue [00:24:00] that year over year It's like a yo-yo effect for a lot of these transit agencies.

You can't really plan for multi years, in terms of hiring, in terms of, kind of capital costs for some of your, buses, in terms of operating costs. so when, you have that, kind of bouncing back and forth from, from, dollar amounts, then you're really, you can't do the adequate plan you need to be able to improve frequency and reliability.

Beau Brockett Jr.: Yeah. Yeah. Very true. 

We've talked about some of the problems we've talked about some of the broad support for transit, we talked about plans. Looking ahead and like what is, what's in store for transit, in the near or far future? What do we hope, I should say, is in store?

Ross Gavin: Yeah, I think that while the big hope is coming out of these proposals and these road funding and transportation funding discussions. I think there is a good opportunity I think there's a realization where all the different stakeholders do feel and understand that there's a there's a funding cliff that we're coming up [00:25:00] to when it comes to transportation funding.

So I do think that there is an appetite there, I do think there's an understanding there and so I think we have a real opportunity to increase public transit funding and really Treat it as the issues of dignity and independence and high quality of life that it really is. 

Beau Brockett Jr.: Yeah. Yeah, and you were mentioning in our intermission too that there's even reports coming out now that really indicate that having transit be part of Michigan's future really needs to be the future for Michigan.

Ross Gavin: Yeah, absolutely. And that's yeah, that's a really good point. Specifically, we've seen in the last year or so the Governor's put together a Growing Michigan Together Council, and they issued a report that talked about transit and its role as a talent and workforce attraction and retention tool.

So the report did a really good job of highlighting how transit is a factor in encouraging economic growth because Michigan's population really is at an inflection point in a lot of ways. For years and years losing residents to other [00:26:00] states. public transit really is a key element in keeping and attracting that dynamic workforce that's going to be needed.

As we continue into the economic future, and especially for folks, many of whom just don't want to own cars. There's a, there's according to a poll done by their urban land Institute, about 80 percent of young professionals ranked access to reliable public transit as very high.

In their choice of where they were wanting to live. So it's just, folks, younger folks who are coming into the workforce, and that we're trying to attract to Michigan. They want to live, work and play in an area that's walkable, in an area that has, reliable public transit.

And then certainly on the other end of the spectrum, like we were talking about where you and I grew up, in more rural areas, we are experiencing, aging populations, and people shouldn't have to be forced to leave the places that they've in lived for decades, just simply because they can't get to the grocery store or the doctor's office. So the Growing Michigan Together Council put out this report, and I think that, this report really talks [00:27:00] about that need for public transit as an economic development tool as much as it is for personal tool as well. 

Beau Brockett Jr.: And for folks tuning in to the podcast, know that there's a link in the description of this episode itself that will take you to some of the latest updates that we're providing here at the Environmental Council when it comes to transit. So if any of this, budget talk or kind of future prognosticating about transit interests you, know that there are other, tools and opportunities available through that link. 

Ross, are there any other sorts of pieces when it comes to transits past, present, or future that you want to make sure we talk about here on this episode?

Ross Gavin: I think the biggest thing really is again, just the opportunity, like we, we really were at a good moment, I think, in terms of discussions, people wanting to have these discussions and knowing that they're needed. and I think that we can really have a bright future in public transit if we invest in it the way that we need to.

I think one other, [00:28:00] one other point that I guess I would make. is that because Michigan has been, quite further behind than a lot of other states, we may need to jump one or two more steps than, than we initially would have if we'd have started when we should have started. so I just, part of that discussion needs to be making sure that as, as we look forward to what type of transportation system that is needed in today's world, that we're not, making improvements that are ones that we should have made just 30 years ago.

Beau Brockett Jr.: Yeah, that's a great point. That's a great point. on that note, Ross, thanks so much for joining me today on this podcast. Really appreciate it. thank you too to our listeners. really appreciate you tuning in. Again, we'll have some more opportunities and further learning available in that link in the podcast episode.

And stay tuned for some episodes ahead where we get on the ground and talk to transit agencies and the folks around them about some more localized, stories around this sort of statewide [00:29:00] topic. 

So with that, Ross, thanks again. Really appreciate you. Thank you. Appreciate you having me on.

Ross Gavin: Yeah, no problem. 

Beau Brockett Jr.: And, to the folks listening, we'll, see you soon.