Housed: The Shared Living Podcast
Sarah Canning and Deenie Lee of The Property Marketing Strategists have teamed up with Daniel Smith of Student Housing Consultancy to discuss the latest news, views and insights in the shared living sector.
Each episode they will be delving into a wide variety of subjects and asking the questions which aren't often asked.
This podcast is a must for anyone working in Student Accommodation, BTR, Co-Living, Operational Real Estate or Shared Living.
Housed: The Shared Living Podcast
The Dangerous Headlines Being Used In PBSA, Empowering Women In Property, Differentiating BTR and How We Can Offer More Affordable Housing
In this week's episode, Dan, Sarah and Deenie discuss:
🔵 Urban Living Insights Takeaways: Differentiating the BTR product and how technology can support this.
🔵 The need for the BTR sector to focus on core deliverables and expertise rather than jumping on a trend or being too reactive
🔵 The use of redevelopment and repurposing of buildings as well as technology and AI to offer more affordable housing
🔵 Inspiring Women in Property Takeaways: Sarah's stand out moment from the Property Week awards ceremony
🔵 GSL Conference Takeaways: The session on Women in PBSA which made Dan both emotional and reflective and why he wants to see this topic being built on for next year
🔵 Information on the women's networking session at The Class Foundation Conference
🔵 Dangerous headlines - lazy journalism and and miscommunication of data and how it's producing the wrong headlines
This episode of Housed is sponsored by Mystudenthalls.com - Search student accommodation across the UK
www.mystudenthalls.com
Hello and welcome to the eighth episode of season two of Housed, the shared living podcast. I'm Dan Smith from Student Housing Consultancy.
SPEAKER_01:I'm Sarah Canning from the Property Marketing Strategists. And I'm Dani Lee from the Property Marketing Strategists.
SPEAKER_03:And let's hear from our sponsor, My Student Halls.
SPEAKER_00:Housed, the shared living podcast is sponsored by mystudenthalls.com, student accommodation search. Let's find your place.
SPEAKER_03:Thanks very much to Dan and the team. It's a crucial time for PBSA marketing at the moment. So do make sure to reach out to him and the My Student Halls team to get your properties listed on their website. They've had 41 million impressions across the course of the year. That is unbelievable. So get those eyeballs on your properties. So on with the show. Thank you very much for supporting us and listening to us. We want to start with a few of the events that we've been to. It's very much in the throes of event season and Sarah and Dini I know you went to Urban Living so yeah how was that?
SPEAKER_01:We've been involved in quite a few Urban Living events recently and this one was Urban Living Insights which was focused specifically on Build to Rent or BTR. It was a really nice intimate morning session which I think we're really learning to kind of love the kind of the shorter kind of more in-depth events really. It had two great panels and then Dini and I were presenting our Gen Z research and to help support the BTR sector in what young people are looking for in their accommodation. They were talking about differentiating the product and that was really interesting. Again, BTR light came up as a topic, which I know is something that we've talked about before in all the shared living sectors is trying to look at what isn't needed and therefore what can be made more affordable. And the general consensus from the panel was do what you do really well. And if you can't add facilities and services and do them well, then don't. You know, don't be reactive. Don't jump to what your competitors are doing or a trend and really kind of focus on some core deliverables that you can consistently deliver and provide that expertise and sort of comfort to your residents. Most BTR residents are staying for just under two years as well. So that's a really long time to impress your residents. And after that stage, they're either moving to a different region or they're buying a home. So clearly the people that are living in BTR are having a great experience. The second session was really focused on technology and how to make, I guess, a booking process seamless, quick, easy, and then also how to manage a property after that. We're going to be coming on to talking about AI later. And obviously that came into that conversation. Dini, do you want to share some of the things that we shared? And we had some really good engagement from the audience, some questions, didn't we? I
SPEAKER_02:was going to say, that's what's been really nice about these urban living events is actually the engagement. has been amazing. And I think that we've done two sessions now. The first one that we did a few weeks ago on our Gen Alpha research, which we talked about last week. And this session, we delivered some of our Gen Z research and what Gen Z are looking for in a home and what might be needed in VTR for those that are starting to kind of make that switch to a professional life and looking for their first outside of study student home. But the engagement in the room, both during our session and after our session, we It was great and people were really, interested in understanding and learning more and delving deeper into that data we shared which i think is just a really nice concept and it was because it was just a morning session i think everyone was really focused on what they wanted to get out of that session and actually making real value from it so it was really good and highly recommend seeking them out
SPEAKER_03:the btr side of that event you're looking at more segmentation and differentiation within btr is that right because obviously we're seeing that in pbsa at the moment with post-grad brands and return brands and that sort of blurred co-living student side of things as well. So I'm assuming that BTR is a little bit further ahead of PBSA in that way, because it's taken PBSA a long time to get there to really look at that segmentation. Did that come through in the event?
SPEAKER_01:No, I don't think BTR are there yet. And I think it's the same with BTR, PBSA, co-living from what we've heard the sector talking about is to get investment engagement, to get the finance backing, you've got to prove a concept and everyone's going to do that where they can get big returns. So that's kind of why you see this kind of homogenization, this kind of, you know, everyone goes for the high end, and then the kind of mid to high end, because it provides the biggest returns. And then it takes a while for the industry to stabilize, for people to be interested in financing it. And then you start looking at the different segments. So I think in the UK, we're kind of still quite early in the BTR journey. Ben Wottam from Dandara was talking about kind of actually their, I guess, their I wouldn't call it a budget offering, but they do what they say on the tin really and try and do it well. So theirs isn't about luxury facilities, but I still think we're to see a kind of lighter offering. And I think a lot of it comes with scale is I don't think the industry is ready yet for kind of large scale, affordable products in PBSA, co-living or BTR. And actually you could probably do it on smaller, you know, on a hundred bed building, 150 bed building. that's not happening. You know, we're not seeing that. And I think that will come with repurposing of like offices or retail. You know, that's the way, you know, no one's going to build a small scale block from scratch because the numbers just won't add up. But maybe it will combined maybe with a multi-tenure development or like I said, as a refurbishment. So yeah, I think it's still very much needed. I think I read a report the other day that said about co-living, the average income for someone living in living is still£40,000 a year you know so that's and they're getting a very small studio flat for that really you know yes it'll be in a great location and yes it'll be really well managed and operated you know we're not talking about graduates there that's not their starting salary.
SPEAKER_03:You know£40,000 that puts it way out of the reach of most graduates I would say to be honest unless you're accepted onto an Accenture or a you know top big four firm so yeah I can see that that is going to be a problem moving forward that£40,000 piece it just has to happen there's no there's no reason that it can't other than currently the development cost obviously but we have to make sure that operationally we have those different models and and like you said btr lights as they were talking about pbsa light and and i think that yes repurposing you're right that's where that can that can also help sometimes it's almost as expensive as as building from scratch but i i don't you know i don't fully sign up to that i think that there are so many options in so many grey buildings, office blocks or current resi blocks or hotels that need to be refurbished. I think there are a huge number of options and then tech and AI really play a part in that as well. So I think there are plenty of options there. Moving on to inspiring women in property. Did you both go to that or was it just one of you? That was just Sarah.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, Dini went last year and I think that was the first one that Property Week had done actually. I think you went to the inaugural one, Dini, and I heard such good things about it and I had massive FOMO. So I was delighted to be invited this year by Kat from Abodus to support her in her nomination. So I didn't really know what to expect. I expect, you know, usually the Property Week events are quite glitzy and glamorous and this was no exception. I think the standout for me was Katie Kopec from JLL who won the Lifetime Achievement Award. And obviously with that award, the winner knows they're going to win so they have time to prepare a speech. And she just blew the room away with her speech I know I commented on LinkedIn that I've never seen a property week with such a long queue for the ladies toilet. But in that queue, everybody was talking about Katie's speech. You know, she was talking, she's been in the industry such a long time. You know, she was talking about a time where she went on maternity leave and it was just the assumption you wouldn't come back. And, you know, she bucked that trend and just kind of that she's really been a trailblazer in the property industry. I was talking to Chitra Marsh afterwards, who is also a trailblazer kind of in women in property. And we were just saying that I have come across situations to do with gender in the property industry over the last 21 years since I've been in the industry. But actually, it's people like Katie, it's people like Chitra that has kind of smoothed the path out You know, they've been through quite a lot of stuff that women shouldn't have to go through in any industry so that people like us and people coming into the industry now don't have to. And that's really what I think the Inspiring Women in Property event was all about. It was people that are leading the way. There was a good representation from the PBSA sector, a little bit from BTR. A lot of it was kind of the agent side of things. So a really kind of nice mix of audience that have come from different parts of the sector.
SPEAKER_02:And was there many men there supporting those, Sarah, or was it all women?
SPEAKER_01:I would say on every table of 10, there were probably two men. So there was probably 80% women, 20% men, which is probably the opposite metrics of what you would get at the resi awards or the student accommodation ones. And talking on the topic of women, I know, Dan, at the GSL conference this week, you were particularly impressed with the women in PBSA panel.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, that was absolutely a highlight. GS Global Student Living. It's run by Tim and Tiago. It's a really... Nice event. There's a bit of segmentation there with an investor summit, which is, you know, 95% blue suits, I would say. And then there are a lot of operational panels covering Europe and various key themes from students with autism through to how to get the best out of your technology to just literally almost anything and everything. I actually think that segmentation works reasonably well because it's some of these bigger events. It's everyone in a room and it whilst that gets people out of their silos, it can mean that quite often you miss the detail and operators don't necessarily want the same things that investors do or developers do or suppliers do. And so, you know, actually having separate, almost separate sessions for operators and investors at GSL worked really well. The highlight for me, though, by a country mile was the women in PBSA session. And I say that because I kind of know what's going to be said on most of the panels, because, you know, as you guys are as well, we're doing the research, we're reading all the stories, we're speaking to the clients, we understand where things are at with the market, what's going to happen to a certain extent, and so certainly what has happened. So when something shocks you, and this session was quite jarring, it really makes you take note. And so what this was, it was at the end of the day. So they had the graveyard shift at 4pm, where the majority of investors had gone home. That's not a surprise. That's the same as last year. So very few male investors in PBSA were left come four o'clock, but the vast majority of operators were. And so this This panel was moderated brilliantly by Soraya from Nido and Sorrell from GSA. And it was effectively explaining some of the challenges that women in PBSA face at all levels, because it had investors, developers, operators, university representatives on the panel. And it was really jarring and really shocking. And all of the men in the room walked away from that session a little bit red-faced and a little bit ashen. And I mean that in the sense of, It was genuinely quite shocking some of the things that each of these women had had to go through to get to where they are. And they were all, you know, very successful and really adding value to the industry. But when one of them says, you know, I sometimes swear a lot more than I should because I feel like that makes me look more masculine and that's what's needed in some of those environments and some of the discrimination that some of them have experienced and, you know, not being invited to certain meetings and, you know, that sounds like it's not a major thing it's absolutely massive and you can feel that that's a career limiting move if you're not in a certain meeting or you know you have to go and do the school run and you know that there's a key investor meeting going on then you know you can feel like you're missing out in all ways and I think putting personal perspective on that that's what all of them did so well they all had their own unique stories some of them quite heart-wrenching and quite sad and some of them you know really triumphant and and it's and it genuinely was it was really emotional i was talking to billy from ask for about it and and he was saying like that that was really quite affecting and and i think the more that we can showcase that the better i then went and wrote a bit of a summary of it and And that got quite a lot of traction on LinkedIn. And that wasn't me looking to obviously steal anyone's thunder. It's just that I wanted to make sure that I could use my profile to showcase quite how important a session I think that was. So I'd encourage anyone to go and read that on my LinkedIn. But yeah, it was just, it was really jarring. But also I think encouraging as well at the same time. And a lot of people have started to talk about what their companies are doing. And I think the most important thing to come out of it is action. Like, you know, you can sit there and talk about the challenges all day long, but until there's some real action points I don't see that there will be the rapid change that is needed. And there is progress, you know, definitely progress in particular in PBSA. Operations is relatively even in terms of women and men. Investment, a lot less so. That gender pay gap is decreasing and decreasing much quicker compared to a lot of other industries as well. So there is progress being made. But come on, you know, it's 2024. Like everything should be even. all of these policies should be readily available on everyone's website you've got to make sure that you are putting women not necessarily front and center because there has to be that element of equality you've just got to be showing that you are your business and your company is there to support women to achieve everything that a man could. Because my God, the women in that room were so unbelievably talented. I would hire them in a heartbeat. And I would also hire them instead of me if I was hiring them for another role. So I think there's so much talent out there. Some of it we just need to encourage and support. And it's not just on women to bring each other up and to boost each other up. I think there's a lot that men can do. And I think quite often people are quite scared to talk about it. I thought I put my head above the parapet, primarily because of how much I speak to you guys, but it's just, it's definitely something that the industry needs. So yeah, really enlightening session, quite difficult to listen to at times, but I'm so glad that I stuck around until the end for that.
SPEAKER_02:And I think that's the sad thing about all that, because I can see how much that impacted you, Dan, and that is brilliant. And all credit to Tim and the team for putting that together and the women on that panel for sharing their personal stories. And I'm going to say a but, which I don't want to say a but but it would have been really nice if that had been at the start of the day because that's when you get real change that's when you get people listening and actually and those people that weren't in the room are the ones that probably most likely without making assumptions may need to hear those stories more and may need to be part of that change and I think time and time again you know and I'm not suggesting that no everyone in that room wants to make that change but it's still not right at the start of this day we're going to talk about this and these are the things that we're going to do it's unfortunately that it was at the end and there could be a million one reasons why it was at the end and i'm not making you know any
SPEAKER_03:yes i i totally appreciate what you mean with having that in the at the graveyard shifts let's let's say and it was the same last year when i was chairing the sustainability panel and it you know virtually all of the investors all of the money had left the room that was my famous line from that and famous in pbsa circles anyway and and it was it was the exact same this year the investors had gone but the room was full like it was standing room only and ultimately I don't because of the way that event is set up I don't know how you could have done it that much differently because the investors separate from the operators maybe bring it into an investor session maybe have a yeah maybe make it a joined maybe do it earlier in the day potentially but I think this was a really important start next year I would like to see that built on for sure and also they are creating the women in PBSA initiative GSL have got that going I'd like to see some progress there. Obviously, I've offered help in the form of policy templates and things like that that anyone might be looking for. It felt like a really positive step. I would like to see more investors there next year because that is where there is such a disparity between the number of women in investments, in real estate investment, compared to the number of women in operations, but also how supported I think they feel in those real male-dominated firms and so there's definite work to do on the investment side of things but the progress is you know we are starting to see change it's just that that doesn't feel like it's quick enough especially for all of those women on the panel so yeah really good session I would like to see that built on for next year for sure
SPEAKER_02:I think my frustration is more about the segmentation that we have to have this conversation in separation from everything else and it becomes identified as something else and that you know that's across the board that's what you know I as much as I really support the events like Inspiring Women in Property, what I really want to see is a world where we don't have to have that and actually we just have inspiring people in property and it's 50-50 because there is that balance of men and women doing great things in this sector and I guess I have a broader wider vision that actually what we need to have is a panel of what are the challenges you've experienced in getting to your position in this sector that's up front and centre that actually men and women talk about their experiences and I think actually it is you know reflecting on this conversation you know I've had experiences that I've probably not shared you know when I was pregnant with my second child I was told that I didn't put you forward for this global marketing role because you're pregnant and you're like that is not allowed and But at the time, you're just so caught up in life that you're just like, yeah, I don't want to be travelling around the country with my second child. Of course I don't. But that's not your decision to make. That's my decision to make. And I think there is more that can be done about sharing those experiences. But I guess I just want to see less segmentation in this. You know, we always talk about segmentation, but I think this is one where actually this is a conversation that shouldn't be about let's talk about women. Let's talk about what's going wrong in this sector and let's fix it. And I guess that's my big world vision that, I know we're a long way from it, but that's where I'd like the world to be.
SPEAKER_01:And just to kind of summarise on that, Dini and I are going to be hosting the Women's Networking Breakfast at the CLASS conference in November. And we hosted it last year as well. And it was the best attended networking session of the day. So we're really, really excited. We're not going to be talking about women and inequality. We're going to be talking about the topics that matter to the sector. It just happens to be that there will be a load of women there. And the reason for that is Kellyanne and the team quite rightly identified there are a lot of women potentially younger women who are attending the event potentially on their own that might not know other people and it's a really good opportunity to kind of meet some familiar faces to kind of buddy up in the morning and then you've kind of got some some kind of allies with you for the rest of the day in what is generally a kind of more male dominated event so and we look forward to seeing a lot of you there make sure you sign up if you're coming to the class conference
SPEAKER_03:Awesome. I think it was the most popular, not just because of the content, but because my sustainability session was on at the same time. So everybody was probably trying to avoid that. But well worth signing up to that. And yeah, let's hope we see some more progress, should we say, because... There's absolutely no reason why we can't. And actually, the action points that I've put on my LinkedIn post, it's really quite simple, to be completely honest. But some of it does come down to the fact that men also need to be taking up some of these policies, shared paternity leave, for example. There's absolutely no reason why men can't do that. And I think there's... Yeah, whilst we do need to make sure that both men and women can be super focused on their careers as and when they want to be, that there's not some kind of stigma attached to taking that kind of parental leave. So lots of work to do. And I think the more we can talk about it, the better. But the quicker it becomes just... people in PBSA Awards rather than women in PBSA Awards or whatever it might be, the better. Well, that's enough on events. Crikey, that's most of the show, to be honest. But we would like to talk about dangerous headlines. And by that, I mean, we've seen a couple of news stories recently. And actually, it's borne out the back of certain misunderstandings, misconceptions and miscommunications, I think, around the data and in particular, the sort of student to bed ratios. I've talked about this at length about how pissed off I am when I see a study come through, a market feasibility study for a PBSA property where it just says, you know, 49% of students can't access PBSA in Coventry or Sheffield or whatever it might be. And they're not taking the right data. And that is ultimately what is, which is breeding certain news stories. We saw one the other day on LinkedIn. I won't mention who shared it, but I just think we're sending out the wrong message about the health of the sector. in certain markets and the levels of maturity, shall we say. And I think that that does need to stop. We need to be really open and really careful with the data. So, yeah, what are your thoughts on that, Sarah?
SPEAKER_01:I think we repeat ourselves on this topic a lot. And kind of my party line is there may be less PBSA than students, but there is not a shortage of places students can live. Hence, there are empty beds in PBSA. If there was a shortage of student accommodation, There would be students sofa surfing. They would be homeless. There would be a crisis. There is not a crisis. Students are all living somewhere. So there is not an undersupply of places that students can live. there may well be an undersupply of PBSA, but that assumes that every student, if there was a PBSA bed, they would be living in it. And that's not the case because developers have created this by not creating enough variety of products to appeal to a larger number of the student demographic. So actually, I think there would be more students in PBSA if there was a differentiation of product and more spread of price points, but there isn't. So there's no point saying that there's an undersupply and carry on building the same product at the same price point in the same location with the same amenities because that won't solve it they will just be more empty beds so if we want to kind of redress those headlines we need to stop glamorizing it and trying to get more pbsa built unless it's going to be the right product in the right place at the right time at the right price point you know it's as simple as that and you know it's you know to say that there's an undersupply and we need more investment, and there's a housing crisis for students, is just massively oversimplifying the situation. We
SPEAKER_03:see this figure of, you know, we're going to be 600,000 beds short by 2026. But then we also, and firstly, I would question that. I would really heavily question whether we are going to actually see, you know, that that drastic shortage because a couple of reasons i think that this year this year just gone 24 25 is not the blip in terms of the sales cycle and the occupancy and the application numbers and the student numbers i think that the post-covid couple of years they were the blips and this is much more steady state this is what we can expect moving forward we aren't going to see the boon in international students that we saw post-covid there's not that pent-up demand we've seen okay demand from domestic students but it's hardly trailblazing we're not setting the world alight with our new figures and and you know massive increases of student numbers and i i think in particular people are worried about the chinese market and what they're going to do with all these studios that we've built primarily for the chinese market in the premium sector and there's going to be a gigantic recalibration at some point now that's not me saying it's a bubble but there are definite markets where and we've seen it this year in leeds and nottingham are the most exposed and people have asked me and that's local councils investors and developers have asked me stop talking about nottingham and leeds and I say that because I'm concerned for investors and developers who may be overexposed and some of their covenants may end up being breached because their occupancy levels haven't remotely hit underwriting this year. That is genuinely a concern for some properties that I know of in Leeds and Nottingham, but other places too, that may well happen. And I do think we need to be mindful of what we are building and the fact that three to five years ago, yes, build it and they will come. Build it in the premium sector as well and they will come. But Chinese students in particular are much more discerning now. They have less money because of the economy and because of currency rates and ultimately they want to see the value and the flight to quality means they're looking at the top universities globally, not just in the UK anymore. And so there are definitely going to be some issues in places like Nottingham and Leeds where the supply has massively caught up with the demand and that demand is also now struggling. So I would just be really mindful of the fact that whilst we're saying that there's a shortage of 600,000 beds, it really does not feel like that in any of the markets that I know. What it does feel like is that there is an affordability crisis. So this really isn't a supply crisis. It's an affordability crisis. The quicker we solve that, the better. And the only way to solve that is not by putting in rent caps or anything like that, or mandating 40-week tenancies instead of 50 ones, or leading to more flexibility, or even the Renters' Rights Act, or whatever we want to call that now. It's building more PBSA. The quicker you do that, the better. because that will bring all of the prices down in that location. Look at Sheffield, where you can get a really nice PBSA room for under 100 quid a week in a good location. Look at Coventry as well. Pretty soon, look at Leeds, look at Nottingham, where that affordability will come more into play. And then the universities, if they're of good stature and their rankings haven't dropped, they will absolutely clean up because those cities will have affordably placed PBSA products that is really damn good and that they have fantastic rankings which you know will will appeal to students of of all kinds so look I think we have to build more but we do need to be mindful of how we're selling that and that's where sales agents come into play we've got to make sure that everything that we're putting forward in those sales brochures is reasonable and fair and isn't leading the horse to water too much, but also that the data that we're using is correct as well. So there's no supply crisis. There is an affordability crisis. The sooner we solve that, the better. The only way to solve that building more beds.
SPEAKER_02:It feels like it's a mix of lazy journalism. And like you say, Dan, if you're going to make an investment into a sector, you need to do your research. And in doing your research, you don't just read the headlines, you look at the data behind it. And ultimately, the answers are all there in what the issues are and the solution is there. Like you say, it's just a case of how do you make that work? And I guess the interesting thing is what you say around Sheffield and Coventry is that it is becoming affordable accommodation because the supply demand metrics are in the right places. And are investors still making money there? Because if they are, then there's a solution. So the answers are all there.
SPEAKER_03:Oh, they are. Yeah, this is the thing. They are still making money. It may not be as much as they would have wanted to, but there is still good money in PBSA. And this is why people... I lost a client the other day because their business partner felt that I was a bit too negative about the outlook for PBSA. Well, no, that's only because their PBSA is primarily in Nottingham and Leeds. And I think that if they're coming in now, that's not actually going to be that easy to make sure that you get you're getting those stellar returns because the occupancy is that much harder to get and therefore the revenue budget has to drop so i think you do need to spread that risk it is a real challenge to cut through any of the data on some of those sales brochures in particular and some of the investment decks as well because the investors want this to stack up the developers want it to stack up the investors want it to stack up but there's not much of a consideration of btr and how much how many students live in btr which you know we know is probably between 20 and 30 percent somewhere depends i mean bristol's around 35 percent international students and students living in btr and that's according to price hubble so take it up with them if you have any problem with that stat but Ultimately, I think looking at the HMO market is something we've always been really lazy at as well. So yeah, lazy stat collection and data collection and lazy journalism, I think is actually putting some investors and developers in a bit of a tight spot because it's not just the case of build it and they will come. We are not shooting fish in a barrel. You can have any other analogy you want in there. It's going to get a bit harder. This is the norm now. 24, 25, I think is what we will see going forward. Don't expect any kind of big boost in international numbers.
SPEAKER_02:And I think there's a fine line between pessimistic and realistic, and I'd much rather have a realistic insight on my side if you're making that kind of investment.
SPEAKER_01:I think though it's about choice, isn't it? Any part of society wants choice. And they want choice in where they live. And the fundamental factors are safe and secure. And all of PBSA offers that, but so does HMO, so does BTR. So it's like I said, it's the developer's fault that they've created a lack of choice for students in the sector. And like we just commented on earlier, we will see that in BTR and co-living and probably later living rental as well until there are investors that are willing I wouldn't even call taking it a risk because I think you'll be guaranteed occupancy, but it might be at a smaller return. But I'd rather have guaranteed income because of a full building than having the stress of worrying that the building's not going to get full. If it was full, then the spreadsheet would look amazing. But if the building's not full... then the spreadsheet doesn't look so amazing. Would you be better to have de-risked your investment with a product that, you know, if you've got a good quality, more affordable product that's aimed at domestic students, you're going to be full all day long. That's the reality of it. There will always be a market for that product. So if I had money to invest, that's what I would be doing with it.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, I completely agree. Focusing on the affordable sector, but equally, there's still plenty of opportunities in the premium sector as well to deliver that level of service where you're showing students value. And it's not just building in the same old places, sticking the same studios in and thinking that that's going to appeal to students of all types. I think we've just got to get a bit smarter with it the fundamentals of PBSA are still very very strong the returns may be slightly weaker than they were in some locations than compared to maybe five years ago But I think the really good thing that we're seeing across the sector is that there is some longer term, more patient capital coming into the sector. There's still opportunities in the sort of three year quick turnarounds. But, you know, I'm seeing some investors come in that are looking at 10, 20, maybe even 40 year holds. And that's not just the institutionals like Aviva or LNG companies. It's the high net worths and the family offices as well. They're starting to look at a much longer term play. So I think the investor momentum is changing slightly towards that sort of medium to longer term hold. That will only benefit the sector because they can sit on slightly lower pricing and take a blended view of that over a longer period of time. But I think... You know, there's a lot of operators out there that are having to recalibrate rents quite heavily this year. And by recalibrate, I mean freeze in some locations, drop those rents, and we will not see double-digit rent rises again. this year. And now there may be a couple of locations where that's isolated, maybe a couple of properties. But when Unite have their forecast as 3% to 4% of an increase, when last year it was 8.2%, as I said on the podcast last week, I think that definitely is a bellwether for the industry that actually is let's just call it a bit this year. You don't need to be too aggressive. There shouldn't be double-digit rent rises unless you're massively improving the property or the service. I don't see that that should be the case this year because every location could have a problem at some point fairly soon. No city is immune to occupancy challenges, especially if the prices have got a bit overheated. Thinking about it, this year is the first year that I've not heard anyone shouting about Bristol busing students in from Newport. And I think that there are going to be certain universities that will ultimately bear the brunt of some of these affordability crises across the country. I think that just about wraps it up. I think that just about wraps it up for today. Thanks very much to all of you for listening. And thank you once again to our sponsor, My Student Halls, for sponsoring this entire series. Do reach out to Dan and the team there. And we will be back in two weeks time for some more news and insight. So in the meantime, please do subscribe and share. And we will look forward to seeing you again soon.