Housed: The Shared Living Podcast
Sarah Canning and Deenie Lee of The Property Marketing Strategists have teamed up with Daniel Smith of Student Housing Consultancy to discuss the latest news, views and insights in the shared living sector.
Each episode they will be delving into a wide variety of subjects and asking the questions which aren't often asked.
This podcast is a must for anyone working in Student Accommodation, BTR, Co-Living, Operational Real Estate or Shared Living.
Housed: The Shared Living Podcast
Are Marketplaces Killing Direct Bookings? Why Laundry Facilities Are a Critical Accommodation Feature, Segregating Students, Twin Rooms and Sector Terminology
Our latest episode kicks off with the hosts, Sarah, Dan and Deenie discussing listener feedback. With thanks to Tom Sutcliffe of Scape, Max Beilby from Vita Student and Aaron Bailey from Yugo for their input. Also, a big thank you to John Stotter-Marden from Washstation for providing us with facts and details on laundry facilities.
We love hearing from our listeners so please continue to send in your thoughts and feedback to hello@housedpodcast.com
The episode also covers;
• How thoughtful design elements can transform the twin room experience
• Sector terminology: what do we mean by three-quarter beds?
• Why laundry facilities are a critical accommodation feature
• Marketplace ethics and challenges
• Segregating different types of students
• Apprenticeship Housing: Opportunities and Concerns inspired by the WONKHE article
Plus Bhavini Patel from Howard Kennedy is back in our Ask the Expert feature to answer questions on The Building Safety Act specifically how the act will impact frontline ops staff - thanks to Laura Mathews from Epoch Rebel for her question.
Thank you to our season four sponsors:
MyStudentHalls - Find your ideal student accommodation across the UK.
Utopi - The smart building platform helping real estate owners protect the value of their assets.
Washstation - Leading provider of laundry solutions for Communal and Campus living throughout the UK and Ireland.
Each week, Sarah Canning, Deenie Lee of The Property Marketing Strategists and Daniel Smith of RESI Consultancy will be delving into a wide variety of subjects and asking the questions that aren't often asked. This podcast is for anyone who works in Student Accommodation, BTR, Co-living, Later Living, university accommodation, Operational Real Estate or Shared Living.
Disclaimer: The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are the personal views of the individual hosts and guests.
Hello and welcome back to Housed, the shared living podcast. This is the second episode in season four and we're very grateful you've been listening along in your hundreds to this brand new season. We promised this episode will be a little bit more bite-sized this week I will promise to talk a little bit less but, as you can tell, we've had a lot to catch up on after the Easter break, so thanks very much for sticking with us. I'm Dan Smith from Resi Consultancy.
Speaker 2:I'm Sarah Canning from the Property Marketing Strategists.
Speaker 3:And I'm Dini Lee from the Property Marketing Strategists.
Speaker 1:And first a quick word from our headline sponsor, my Student Halls.
Speaker 3:Season four of Housed is sponsored by mystudenthallscom. List your properties commission-free and reach thousands of students searching for their university home.
Speaker 1:Dan and the team at my Student Halls. They've been supporters of House since the start. We're very grateful that they're here once again as headline sponsors of season four. Their student accommodation listings at mystudenthallscom it's incredibly easy for students to use and operators are listing in their dozens. So if you haven't already, make sure that you're listed for this upcoming season. It will deliver quality leads straight through to your teams. Also, a huge thanks to our brand new sponsors, wash Station and Utopia, and a bit more from them later.
Speaker 1:At the end of this episode, we will also hear from Bhavini at Howard Kennedy. She'll be answering more of your questions about the Building Safety Act, so do stick around for that, and that's certainly relevant for anyone in ops as well as your typical developers, designers, architects, et cetera. There's nothing Bavini gets more passionate about than the Building Safety Act, so she's on hand to answer all your questions about it as part of our Ask the Expert series with Howard Kennedy. So stay tuned to the end and hear what bavini has to say. So, after last week's episodes I mean that flew off the shelves, firstly. So thanks ever so much to everyone for listening, but it's worthwhile just having a little bit of an update because we had so much feedback on it about each of the topics actually, which was great, so please do keep your comments and questions coming in first up.
Speaker 1:Twin. Now I had a message as soon as the pod went out 7am on last Friday. Tom Sutcliffe from Scape sent me a message and just said we're being a little bit unfair on PBSA because Scape have built twins that have been turned down by universities, and I think our focus was saying, look, universities seem to be fairly content with the twins. Maybe they're not. Maybe that's actually proving a little bit more difficult for universities to take. So they've been turned down by universities in nominations agreements, even though the twins do offer the best affordability. So Scape don't apparently have a problem leasing them, especially in London, and although I'm not sure that the rent increases will have been quite so big on those, he did end by saying that you know a well-designed twin at a competitive price is something he'd always consider. Escape seemed to be right at the forefront of pioneering the sort of design of some of these properties and rooms. So if they're saying that twins do work, then I think that's certainly something to think about.
Speaker 2:I remember seeing a Scape twin room years ago, probably a decade ago, and they did like the beds foot to foot with like an entertainment sort of TV unit in between, and I really felt that that was a really great solution to the twin room. I think before that the only twin rooms that I'd seen were kind of in mainland Europe with beds kind of side by side.
Speaker 1:Parallel yeah.
Speaker 2:Which doesn't feel very sustainable or modern, but I really liked what Scape had done with those models. I'm not sure if they've still got those properties, but it just shows that with the right layout and innovation it could do well. I do wonder with the universities that turned it down, though. The first thought when I saw the message message was do the universities have any software, do they have the resource to match people together? Because that's the biggest barrier, is that it? You know they'll feel like they can't put random strangers together and, you know, not have to rejig them later in the season. So I feel like great layout, good price. But the third point to that, you know, dream triangle of affordable twin rooms has to be allocations, and if you haven't got the resource or the technology to do that properly, then yeah, it's probably not the right thing for the organisation.
Speaker 3:I think there's also a legacy issue as well, similar to non-ensuite rooms, in that people think that if it's a twin room, it's not great and it's not nice. Similar to people think if it's non a twin room it's not great and it's not nice. Similar to people think if it's not en suite it's not great, it's not nice. And I think it's about changing. As you say, you've got the right design and it's got that privacy element in it and it's got the right price, then there will be a market for it. But we probably don't have many of those rooms, as maybe we should do. But it sounds like Scape is doing is well, Spe are doing great things and people are doing great things. But yeah, it's just we've got to change that reputation of twin rooms.
Speaker 1:I think I like that foot to foot idea. I don't. I think it's. I think it would be a bit creepy if you're in a twin room where the beds are parallel, and I think you do want that separation, you do want that privacy and waking up, being able to look at someone. Look at someone or just turn over and I don't know. That feels a little bit much. That may just be me being a bit pedantic about my sleep, but I just think that would be a step too far. So the more we could innovate the design of those and and it, you know, whether it's foot to foot or whether it's at diagonals or whatever it might, right angles, whatever it might be, I think we just need to innovate a little bit more and be a bit smarter with the space.
Speaker 2:In. I just remembered another example, actually in Barcelona. In one of the Aparto buildings we saw a foot to foot but they also had a curtain in between to almost like split the room. But when we were being shown around that property they said you know, they all start with putting it through, but but by the end, you know, end of the first semester, you know they're great friends and they're comfortable and they don't even bother with the curtain anymore. I think we also saw one in Barcelona I can't remember who the operator was, but it was like L-shaped configuration, the beds. So you had one kind of almost like in the kind of galley style part of the room and then the room turned into an L shape. So the second bed was actually kind of tucked away behind a corner. It was quite a small room, but I think that configuration of L shape also worked really well. So yeah, I'm sure there's some fantastic designers and architects that can create, you know, that balance of space optimization and privacy.
Speaker 1:Another thing I've just thought of twins are they typically single beds? We're coming on to the double bed comment, uh, in a second, but I'm assuming that twins typically are are single beds rather than three quarters? I don't think I've seen anything that is not a single bed, but you know, if anyone out there has twin rooms with three quarter beds or even double beds, let us know. In terms of double beds, as we mentioned last week, we had a message straight away from max, from vita. He got in touch and said they've only had double beds in all of their new developments since 2016. They've got some legacy three quarters in in older assets and aaron bailey also mentioned that you go have doubles in ireland. It doesn't sound like they have them in the UK as yet. So I think this is something that people are starting to come round to, but obviously it's space dependent.
Speaker 2:What I would say about three-quarter beds. It's been a bugbear of mine for my entire career in PBSA what the hell is a three-quarter bed, and how do you market it? Because nobody understands, so I've ended up calling them small doubles because, I feel like at least people understand. We've had questions, you know coming from students asking if they're three quarter lengths.
Speaker 2:You know which you know for maybe a six foot five rugby player it's going to cause a bit of a problem. But also, you know, beds and bedding is is really weird and I find it completely bizarre that across even Europe the naming conventions of beds and bedding is different.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Like, pillows that you get in in Spain and Germany are different to pillows that you get in the UK. So it's really it just adds another communication barrier and loads of questions come in. What size bedding do I need? No, because you wouldn't go into Dunelm and look for a three quarter size bed sheet. It's not a thing. So I do think that if it's a double, and it's actually a double, call it a double, and I don't really know what to suggest if you've got three quarters.
Speaker 1:What are we going to do then? Okay, yeah, this is on us. Then We've got to come up with some kind of naming convention. But hang on, what's a queen bed then? So queen's biggest no, no, it's not. Is it, isn't it king, super king?
Speaker 2:I think it's double king queen I think we need to go and do some bed research but yeah, in in the meantime, I use the word small double, you know, but in your faqs, you could say what the size?
Speaker 1:I'm right, I so you have a small single, then you have a single, then you have a small double, which is a queen. Then you have a double, then you have a king, then you have a super king, and so we just need to be saying queen bed rather than three quarter if it is, yeah, we need someone to compare the measurements so I've got the dimensions here.
Speaker 1:So a single is 90 centimeters by 190 centimeters. A small double a queen is 120 by 190 centimeters, and then a double is 135 centimeters by 190 centimeters. Then king goes up. Super king is 180 by 200.
Speaker 2:So there's actually only 15 centimetres between a small double and a double. So you do have to question in general student combination would that 15 centimetres make such a difference that you can't put a double in instead of a small double, just to make everyone's lives so much easier?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I would agree with that. Please, can everybody start putting doubles in? 15 centimetres shouldn't make too much of a difference, although size, size does matter, depending on, uh, your, your perspective there. I do think that that's something that we probably should start to see some traction on with more people putting in double beds. You know, vita, vita have pioneered that clearly and it's good to see that you go. I've got that in Ireland, but I think, yeah, can we, because you're right, like, how many times do you see queen, queen bed sheets or duvets, etc.
Speaker 3:That's an interesting one yeah, but I think that's the point, isn't it? And I think your point, sarah, is right is that you've got to give them the information that, actually, if you say a small double, people think, oh, what goes on a small double? But a double duvet just goes on a small double. So it's just really that reassurance of just bring a double duvet it's the sheet, isn't it?
Speaker 2:it's the sheet that makes it.
Speaker 1:It's a fitted sheet, isn't it? Yeah, yeah, all right, so watch this space on on the doubles then, but it let's, let's call the three quarters queens. Let's not have a three-quarter bed anymore. They are queen beds at laundry. Obviously, we've got new sponsors in wash station, which we're very grateful for, and they've been able to provide some really valuable insights to us, which is which is great, because it is a. It's a hot topic and we covered it and I think it was quite controversial last season because of the fact that laundry was such a pain point for students. So it's great that Wash Station are reaching out and and trying to speak to us, as some others have too. But yeah, sarah, you've spoken to John from Wash Station. What? What's he been saying to you about the state of laundry at the moment?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so off the back of what we were talking about with single occupancy, co-living and possibly, you know, the biggest impact you can have on increasing your maximum occupancy would be on laundry. And he has lifted the lid on what usually happens is. He said that operators normally give maximum occupancy of a building. They go with that number. So it's somewhere along the line the developer or the acquisitions team or the architect or maybe the ops director has decided that they have, let's call it, 20 large studios that they can have on dual occupancy. So therefore you need to provide laundry space as if there were an extra 10 tenants there. So that completely makes sense and it was really good to hear that that's been considered. What I did think when John said that was I don't think those conversations filter through to the frontline ops team and marketing team on what the maximum occupancy of a building was intended to be. I've never seen or heard those conversations. So at some point it's been factored in maybe you know, maybe to the investment appraisal that this is going to be the maximum occupancy. It's been factored in from operationally. But I'm not sure at that point the marketing team would know that we can advertise 20 additional dual occupancy studios and the ops team know that 20 is the maximum that they can take because otherwise the provisions in the building, such as laundry, won't be sufficient. So I found that really interesting.
Speaker 2:And then the other thing that John said was that he is seeing a little bit of a change in where laundry is being provisioned in the building.
Speaker 2:He said that developers usually want to give them a tiny space in the basement next to the bin store, but actually that's really compromising the cost regarding drains, extraction and installation and actually having one that's kind of near a reception.
Speaker 2:That creates a little bit of kind of a sort of convergence point for the residents and kind of come and go and it might be that they drop their laundry off and then they go and get their post and they go and have a chat with reception. So he's saying that it is starting to change and laundry is such a big part of student surveys it feels like tucking it away in a basement next to the bin store is only going to exacerbate some of those challenges that residents can have about about laundry. So yeah, I found found those kind of insights really really interesting and also I won't go into it now because it's a bit more technical, but if you want any information about the environmental impact of machines and how wash station have been able to get the utility bills down for operators regarding how much water and heat is being used in these machines, then do give John Stter-Marden a call because he's got some really great information on that.
Speaker 3:Didn't he also say as well that if you move up into the social areas you can actually maximise the space with more washers and dryers, because you don't need to have a sitting or waiting space and obviously they've got the technology as well to enable them to find out when their wash is finished so they can go off and play a game of pool or go and do some study and then just go and grab it. So actually thinking about where you put it and the spaces it's near means actually you can have less space for the laundry potentially we.
Speaker 1:We took over when I was at nido. We took over nido, the bridge, which is now a bonus, the bridge in newcastle and I panicked when I first saw the design for it, because the laundry was a bank of laundry machines, washers and dryers in the reception area, effectively and the social area. And I just thought how is that going to work? Because it's going to be too noisy, it's going to be constant laundry everywhere, it's going to be an absolute mess. And they just made a thing of it and it actually really integrated well into the social spaces.
Speaker 1:It's not too noisy because the machines these days are pretty damn good, like they're pretty efficient, they're quite quiet and it just became a kind of gathering point rather than, as you said, sarah, a tiny little room next to the bin store which no one wants to be near. Having a social space there means you can sit and have a chat with the people on reception. It also means that reception is a bit more, a bit stickier, so that people can come down and if the GM needs or someone needs to speak to one of the residents, or whatever it might be, you can check on whether they're going to rebook ork or you know anything like that. It's actually a really good opportunity if it's done right. So yeah, go and have a look at Abodas the bridge and let us know what you think.
Speaker 2:We actually did a piece of research with an operator. I think it was last year. They were looking to spend some capex on social spaces and this laundry was within the social space. So we did a couple of focus groups with students to find out what they want before and they invested a lot of money and actually one of the big things was they felt their laundry room was too small, not that there were not enough machines, but that the circulation space was really small and they didn't have anywhere to like fold their laundry and they felt like as soon as somebody was like bent down opening the machine and taking their things out, nobody could even walk past. So actually just by moving the wall would have created much more customer satisfaction. Yeah, it's not necessarily just about how many machines there are.
Speaker 1:It's what else you can do and how comfortable you can do it in in that space I completely agree and given the pain point that that laundry is for students, why wouldn't developers, universities, operators be bringing laundry providers in very, very early on to make sure that it's actually an integral part of the community and and that they want to resolve any kind of issues, moving forward and reputational issues for, for the, for the operator, because it's not the laundry provider. You don't get complaints about specific laundry providers. Typically you get complaints about the property, saying the laundry room's tiny, there's, you know I, I have to leave all my stuff down there. It's past the bin room which absolutely stinks. I've got no, nowhere to fold my stuff. The washers and dryers are far too expensive or whatever it might be. So that you know that doesn't go back on those, those brands, it's much more on the operator. So I think let's start bringing laundry providers in really early to say, right, what's, what's the best case scenario here? So I think let's start bringing laundry providers in really early to say, right, what's the best case scenario here? What do you need? What's going to actually enable students to be happy about their laundry, not just on a cost basis, building it into the underwriting, but in terms of a design spec as well. So, yeah, let's start calling out laundry, for quite how important it really is in the success of a building, especially when it comes to things like student crowd and the reviews that we see.
Speaker 1:Lastly, in terms of the follow-ups and this episode has been great because it's been primarily the feedback on the previous episode. It won't always be like this, but I think we had so much pent up questions, frustrations. The last thing to talk about was marketplaces. Now I apologize for my monologue last week, only in terms of its length, because it took us pretty much up to an hour for the episode. I had so much feedback from that and I think it was welcomed by both marketplaces some of them anyway and operators to kind of call out for more transparency, because that's what we want. And this is all off the back of Jason from U-Homes talking about the must-stay cities or sorry, the must-stay list for each city, and it's a really interesting concept. I'd like to see that transparency in terms of how do you adjust your rankings. Jason has said he'll be very open on U-Homes Pro as to what that looks like. Yeah, there's only so open you can be when you have sort of commercially sensitive information, but it's good to see that there is hopefully a bit more transparency coming, but there's a lot of operators out there that agree with some of the things that I've put out there.
Speaker 1:So I would just say, if you're speaking to your marketplaces over the course of the next week, month or, to be honest, at any time during the year, then it's worth just asking them a few questions. In particular, do you charge the students in any way, shape or form? Because if they do, that is illegal. I've had no marketplaces reach out to me and say we don't think this is illegal. They all know it and they're quite happy to flout it. So I think that is something that we need to really stamp out and come down hard on, and some of those marketplaces have previously said we're going to stop, and now they've started charging the student again. And this is marketplaces, large and small. So it's definitely worth just asking them are you charging? If they are, we really need to be putting the message out there that that is just not acceptable. And that's not just my opinion, that is the opinion of a lot of different operators, and whilst, of course, operators want to fill their beds, especially in a season like this, where it's looking like it's challenging and it's hopefully going to be late. Everyone is desperate for bookings, but it can't be at the cost of good practice and ethics effectively. So stop your marketplaces charging the students, stop them pushing exclusivity.
Speaker 1:I don't like any marketplace saying, if you list with us or you want to be high ranking with us, you cannot list anywhere else. I think that is anti-competitive. I think that the Competition Commission would have something to say about that. Most of these marketplaces have entities in the UK and I think that that could become a bit of a problem for them if people start flagging some of this behavior. And then the cashbacks I think let's stop marketplaces offering cashbacks for the sake of it. That is the problem where, you know, a lot of marketplaces are just looking to get students to book with them rather than booking direct with the operator, by offering cashbacks of anything up to £500, between sort of £20 and £500 is the incentive that we see. 500 pounds is the incentive that we see.
Speaker 1:I don't think that's right and I know that the marketplaces will say, well, we need to make sure that they're not booking with other marketplaces. Well, actually, who that's affecting is the operators, because I've had, honestly, dozens of messages in the last two weeks from operators saying we've just had this message from a student who said we were going to book direct but then so so and so marketplace has said that they will offer us 300 pounds cash back. It's between 200 and 300 is what I've seen in the last two weeks. But again that if that gets flagged to the operator, how bad does that make marketplaces look like? How desperate do you need to be? I think this is where you have to add value. You have to fit into the sector. Go ahead, sarah.
Speaker 2:Well, we see in hotels, don't we, that if you book direct you get the best rate. I book through bookingcom a lot, but I always check the hotel directly first, because quite often the rates are better and we can't say that in PBSA at the moment and that's not like you said. That's not a great place to be. We should be confident as an industry to say you will get your best rate if you put directly with us, and we talked about it last week. You know, as marketeers, we're much more in favor of operators building their own brand and creating their own brand awareness and building their own cohort of loyal customers, and you can't do that and if their heads are being turned all the time by cashbacks from marketplaces. We want people to stay loyal to your brand. I mean a lot of postgraduates and they're only in the UK for a year, but where you do have those students that are with you longer term, you want them to stay with you longer term and not every year be poached effectively by marketplaces offering cashback for another property.
Speaker 1:It's a major problem that we have. There's a lot of poaching going on, and then you get into the sort of rebooker debacle of you know. Is the marketplace then getting a commission for rebooking? What does that look like? Is it half of the original commission? And how much are they able to really drive that, given that the success is then on the property and the way the property is either anti-competitive or poaching or whatever it might be?
Speaker 1:But at the moment it feels like not that many are particularly brave enough because they know that this season is going to be quite challenging. So we're kind of the conduit at the moment. We are the messengers for the industry, for the PBSA operators in particular. We also understand marketplaces, of course. We we know that they have a very important part in the sector they've got. They're a hugely important part of the ecosystem. But there is a serious danger of some overreach, some anti-competitive practices and some illegality in the way that marketplaces are working at the moment. So please do ask those questions of your marketplaces, I think. Think that's it for the feedback session there. Thanks to everyone. If you do want to get involved, please DM us, send us LinkedIn, send us a WhatsApp or email. Hello at housedpodcastcom. Now let's hear from one of our brand new sponsors, who we've just been talking about, and it's Wash Station.
Speaker 2:Wash Station proudly sponsor this episode of Housed. We provide best-in-class laundry solutions that complement your buildings. Washstation Smart, green, clean.
Speaker 1:Thanks so much to WashStation. We're very grateful to John and the team there who have been really helpful with a lot of the insights. As we've said, they're really adding value to these discussions, so looking forward to that being a great partnership. Do get in touch if you're an operator of a shared living space. Now, sarah Deeney, I know that you've really picked up on something that's been sent through from Nick at City Room Rentals. He was really excited to share an article from Wonk HE, which is well worth a follow, by the way, that he read about the potential for university-style accommodation for apprentices. Now that seems to be coming to Manchester. It's been a hot topic for us for a few years now, I think, with the Conservative government really focusing on apprentices, primarily because they were so anti-university, if we're being totally honest. But Labour have kind of continued that focus on apprentices and and I think, rightly so. So, yeah, what? What have you seen from that and what did you take from that, sarah?
Speaker 3:Just to quickly step in just to, the Labour government actually had already started a growth in apprenticeships prior to the previous Conservative government, so I think the Conservative government did just carry on what Labour were already doing around apprenticeships and, as you all know, apprenticeships is a passion of mine. Used to work for the national apprenticeship service before coming to this lovely sector and Ultimately it's great because apprentices should be able to go and live wherever they want and be supported, and I think it's really exciting for us to actually finally see this come to fruition. I guess my frustration is still and I think I've said this before several times on the podcast is I'm beginning more and more to move away from this idea of spaces for types of people, but actually let's just build homes and people can live in those homes. So it's just more of that kind of compartmentalizing of apprentices live here and students live here, when ultimately they're all in the same part of their life, growing and developing their skills ready for employment ultimately.
Speaker 2:I think the I mean the article's really interesting. I urge anyone to read it and it's being led by Andy Burnham from Greater Manchester. But what's the main, I think difference potentially is is how it's going to be funded, and I think that's why it's been put into a separate bracket to PBSA, because they do talk about it being subsidised. Being subsidised and wonky quite rightly call out that. It therefore assumes that university students can afford rent and apprentices can't, even though apprentices are earning a wage. But also we know that most university students are earning a wage as well.
Speaker 2:So it doesn't feel like the comparisons are really fair ones and I think they could go down a very dangerous rabbit hole. Like Dini said, if you start segmenting, well, well, this lot of students because, let's be honest, degree apprentices are students get this and university students get this and it won't create a really really great collaborative, fulfilling environment for either of those groups. You know they'll learn so much from each other, and why should you know Danie's so passionate about degree apprenticeships? But then why should someone that's studying a degree apprentice be made to feel different or other than somebody that's studying a traditional degree? That's not really what the point of degree apprenticeships are, you know, and we're not going to raise the reputation of those degree apprenticeships if they're constantly being treated as other.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I agree I think we've said this on previous episodes about apprenticeships. That's, you know, not everyone who chooses an apprenticeship is from a working class background, and I think there's a bit of an assumption that they all need support and actually no, they don't. They've actually a lot of them have been pretty smart in the choices that they've made because they've got a job, they're getting paid to go through effectively university to end up with an apprenticeship degree. That's a great thing and it can mean that it's a much more cost-effective way to do things. I do think you're right we need to stop kind of bastardizing apprenticeships. We've got to make sure that we are putting them on the same level as classic university degrees. So the more we can do that, the better. But I think universities have got a job to do there.
Speaker 1:The government needs to really be pushing this, not as a leveling up, a sort of leveling up project, but as really looking at a root and branch review of university as a whole. You've got to start doing that with AI anyway, because most of the roles that most of the degrees that people are doing are going to be completely upended by AI anyway. And then you've got to factor in the fact that most people can't really afford to go to university anyway and that some just want to learn on the job. So, yeah, I think there is a review in play of higher education at the moment by the government. Don't know what that looks like, don't know where it's up to. It was very early stages last time we'd looked. Yeah, all of this needs to be considered.
Speaker 3:The only other thing that, when reading this article, kind of came to mind was that subsidised piece if that's being subsidised by the employer is actually, is this actually a way that we can help all students go and study? Is actually this, you know, like a sponsored degree? So, yes, you can do it via working for that company, but actually the whole point we all go to university is to get employed and it's an employer's interest to educate the next generation. So actually making that parity through corporations, supporting accommodation, feels like a way that, in the new world, might be a way that it can all work potentially.
Speaker 2:I think the need for accommodation and why we were very supportive of degree apprentices being able to live in PBSA in the first place is because the availability of apprenticeships is very much centred around the main cities in the UK and if there's not enough accommodation for those people then it's going to make taking up those apprenticeship opportunities very, very difficult if they've got nowhere to live. So I think what we're probably saying is it's really positive that Manchester have looked at this as an option and have acknowledged that there is a missing opportunity. But I think the execution needs looking at further to stop creating that gap and inequality between what they're, I guess, illustrating as two different types of students, but effectively they're just students different types of students, but effectively they're just students.
Speaker 3:And also another thing that's just come to mind is that I think that there is a big risk that if we don't encourage people to move out of home and go and study, that they don't travel and they don't move as easy and they're not as independent and actually from an employment perspective and for companies, we are a global world and we do need to travel world and we do need to travel and we do need to get out. And so I kind of worry that, from a wider perspective, that actually supporting people to go away and study and become independent is a positive thing for life generally, because that's really important that you are able to go and do that and you have the confidence to do that, yeah, I agree, it's all about life experience as well.
Speaker 1:So if we can enable that, great, but it shouldn't be this two-tier system where, you know, apprentices have different buildings or whatever it might be. I I'm not a fan of that. It's certainly something to uh, it's certainly a an avenue to encourage and, and something I think we're here a hell of a lot more of. And now a quick word from our sponsors.
Speaker 3:This episode is brought to you by Utopia, the smart building platform that helps real estate owners protect the value of their assets, From ESG compliance to energy efficiency and resident engagement.
Speaker 1:Utopia turns real-time data into action, making buildings better for people, planet and profit.
Speaker 2:If you're in asset management or operations and care about performance, Utopia is your essential partner. Find out more at utopiacouk. That's U-T-O-P-Icouk.
Speaker 1:And now we're joined by Bhavini Patel from Howard Kennedy.
Speaker 5:As one of the UK's largest real estate legal teams, Howard Kennedy brings deep industry insight and commercial solutions to support clients in an ever-evolving real estate landscape. We deliver tailored solutions that help our clients realise their goals, working in close collaboration to navigate every stage of the property lifecycle.
Speaker 1:Hello, I'm here again with Bhavini Patel from Howard Kennedy to discuss the Building Safety Act. It is the burning question that most from Howard Kennedy to discuss the Building Safety Act. It is the burning question that most people have how is the Building Safety Act going to impact on their operations or their development or their investments across PBSA, btr and co-living? So delighted to have Bhavini here. Thanks ever so much for joining us again. So we had a good question from Aaron Bailey last last time and thanks very much for setting the the contacts in the one of the previous episodes. Um, we've now got a question from laura matthews of epoch rebel and her question is how do you foresee the changes impacting frontline staff in shared living buildings such as pbsa and btr on a day-to-day basis? Will roles need to evolve and specific compliance measures need to be prioritised? That's three questions in one, laura, which is pretty greedy, but hopefully we can get some answers there, pavini.
Speaker 4:Yeah. So what I will start by saying is there are no specific exemptions or differences in terms of the occupation phase of any residential building. So what I say here applies equally to shared living, but also the traditional models of land or tenant relationships. And what I will say is do roles need to evolve? Yes, this is a massive culture change in the way that buildings are managed.
Speaker 4:I think for far too long we've had a bit of an absence of management, or what I call active management. No longer can somebody be passive about fire and building safety, but it's got to be reactive, proactive and constantly evolving. So the culture change that we've had is not that you can create a fire safety policy at the start of a building being occupied, put it in a file and allow it to collect dust. It's very different. There is the introduction of a new competency requirement, meaning those managing buildings have to continually assess and manage fire and building safety risks. Now the question is what does that really mean? And it's huge, but I think that's intentional, because each building has its own requirements, it will have its unique occupancy, it will have its own shared amenities, and so it's not possible by regulation to say what that management might look like, but it's about the person who's responsible for managing, understanding its occupiers, understanding whether there's somebody vulnerable within that building, understanding if somebody is not going to be able to activate a fire alarm, and working out ways in which you can positively engage with the residents and occupiers of that building to ensure you have policies that are fit for purpose for them and that you are constantly evolving them.
Speaker 4:So I'll just touch on a couple of specifics that have to be put in place in terms of what we call the duty holder regime, which is the occupational regime. But before I do that, the areas where I've seen the best practice and the best implementation of this duty holder regime is by the introduction of a dedicated member of staff who holds the title of building safety officer or similar, and that has to be right, because if they are to hit the competency requirements introduced by the Building Safety Act, then you need somebody who is trained and constantly trained, and understanding this. Their CPD should be on fire in terms of understanding the requirements, and so having your general manager dealing with this doesn't meet that requirement. So, just looking at some of the specifics about what frontline staff have to be doing on a day-to-day basis. I think everybody knows that you need an annual fire risk assessment, that you need to check your fire doors every three months if they're communal doors, or for the flat doors every year. But it's not about them filing that fire risk assessment. It's looking at what issues have arisen in that year, what issues might then arise in the next year and how you can work around them to prevent them from being building safety risks. It's also about having engagement strategies with residents so they understand how the safety of their building works.
Speaker 4:That residence engagement strategy requires consultation if, for example, there are going to be any sort of safety works that are going to take place over more than one day. And it's a genuine consultation. It's not just telling people these things are going to happen like we've traditionally done. It's having a consultation meeting. If it's student accommodation, is there a common room? Having that consultation meeting at a time that suits the students around their other educational requirements.
Speaker 4:It's really thinking about that building and its specific needs. I won't go into too much detail about some of the other things that are needed, but there is a whole shopping list under the regulations in terms of this active management and that all culminates in what's known as a safety case and safety case report for the building that has to be submitted to the building safety regulator once requested and you only have 28 days to submit that and I can promise you, having worked with lots of clients to put together their safety case reports, it takes about six to eight months to do that. So if you haven't started now, I suggest you do, because when you get that call you've got 28 days to do it.
Speaker 1:Wow, you heard it here first Get your building safety cases in. That is a lot, that is a big impact, and I don't think that operators are fully aware of exactly quite how much of a requirement there is now, and so I do think there's a lot of work to be done in terms of training, upskilling and ensuring that we have those accountable people in each operator for that. So, yeah, there's lots coming down the line for that. I know it's very much a moving feast, but we do expect operators to be getting ahead of the game now. You've heard it here first, or hopefully not, but I just wanted to also come on to the gateways. Just wanted to also come on to the the gateways. Now.
Speaker 1:We've discussed this previously, but, talking to sue churchill at church lucas, she was, um she was telling me that the building safely act can add anything from sort of 8 to 18 months to a build timeline, which is effectively, you know, ensuring that there's a real problem with viability for a lot of projects. So is that something that you're seeing? Are you seeing that there's? Are you seeing that investors and developers are becoming a bit more risk averse because they know that there are more barriers or gateways in the way, should we say yeah, I think that's fairly common.
Speaker 4:In terms of the delays and I know we've talked about it previously the targets are supposed to be 12 weeks to decide a gateway to application for a new HRB and then eight weeks for works to existing. It is putting off people in terms of new builds of a HRB. You know, particularly we're thinking student. You've got target dates to get things in place to make sure that you're ready to go for term commencing. But again, I do think this is just a cultural change and I think we need to be allowing for these lag times in the planning and we've previously been used to things just moving very quickly. But it is about thinking about, you know, almost looking at it from back to front, so saying, right, I need this built from this moment Is that realistic? Working backwards to get through the gateways?
Speaker 4:But it has an impact also, like you say, on viability. Often you've put these works out to tender or you might have, under a JCT contract for construction, put in PC dates and it is again about changing the way in which all of the parts and the elements of the deal are put together to allow for these delays. And we're finding that when we're working with investors and developers. We're allowing for those things to be built into contractual documents, into loan documents. There's a lender, so it's about being more savvy and planning these things better to account for what we perceive now to be these new delays.
Speaker 1:I think you're right. I think it is taking longer. There is a reason why it's taking longer and there's a reason why we have this legislation, and it's just about being prepped. Unfortunately, it's going to take more time, it's going to take more money to get through the gateways and get things approved. That may stop the sort of the certain kind of mom and pop shop kind of developers, but I think the institutional developers and the well-established developers will be able to mitigate any kind of risks and understand what they are. But yeah, that's the real challenge that I think everybody's facing in a housing crisis, where you need to build as quick as possible and as many as possible, that these gateways seem to be getting in the way. But you know, as you said, with good reason- yeah, I think so.
Speaker 4:I mean, the government has recently announced its acceleration plan and within that, I do know, because we act for some developer clients, that they are talking to developers to work out what the users need to help streamline this process. Because, as you say, we have these new labour mandates to build, build, build, but we can't build if we're stuck within what we perceive to be new red tape, and so it is better understanding how we can facilitate the things that have become new challenges for those trying to build to make sure we can still meet those mandates to get the buildings up and occupied.
Speaker 1:Brilliant. Well, thanks ever so much, bhavini, and thanks to all the experts at Howard Kennedy that we've heard from over the course of the last few episodes, and, yes, we look forward to hearing from you again at some point soon, thank you. Thanks so much to Bhavini and the team at Howard Kennedy, and also thank you to my Student Halls for being our headline sponsor for the season. Your support is hugely appreciated. Of course, thanks to Utopia and Wash Station for coming on board for season four. Very grateful for your support too.
Speaker 1:We say this a lot, but we're seeing more and more operations teams tuning in and benefiting from listening to our sector insights. A lot of these teams they rarely get to attend the conferences or webinars, so this podcast is really an accessible and digestible way to to get better informed. So if your teams aren't already, please do share our podcast with them as well. If you work in the pbsa, btr, co-living, hmo and university accommodation sectors and you enjoy our weekly podcast, please do give it a rating and review it on your podcast channel of choice. That's it from us. We look forward to being back with you next week.