Beyond 9-to-5: Creating Spaces That Serve 24/7 Lives, Is PBSA less sexy than BTR and coliving? The Highs and Lows of UKREiiF and Will the UK see a Resurgence of International Students?

Episode 62! And this week the hosts, Deenie, Sarah and Dan are discussing some of the content and themes from UKREiiF and all the shared living news from the last couple of weeks including:

- The highs and lows of UKREiiF 

- Is PBSA less sexy than BTR and coliving?

- Is the night time economy considered when designing spaces?

 - Will the UK see a bounce from international students rejecting (and being rejected by) the USA?

Thank you to our season four sponsors:
MyStudentHalls - Find your ideal student accommodation across the UK.
Utopi - The smart building platform helping real estate owners protect the value of their assets.
Washstation - Leading provider of laundry solutions for Communal and Campus living throughout the UK and Ireland. 

Each week, Sarah Canning, Deenie Lee of The Property Marketing Strategists and Daniel Smith of RESI Consultancy will be delving into a wide variety of subjects and asking the questions that aren't often asked. This podcast is for anyone who works in Student Accommodation, BTR, Co-living, Later Living, university accommodation, Operational Real Estate or Shared Living.

Disclaimer: The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are the personal views of the individual hosts and guests.

Chapters

• 0:00 Returning After Half-Term Break
• 3:16 UKREiif Conference Feedback
• 11:21 Making Events Work and Networking
• 22:26 Cities After Dark Report
• 31:40 American Universities and International Students
• 31:46 Building Design for 24/7 Living

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

Hello everyone and welcome back to Housed, the shared living podcast. This is the sixth episode in season four. We're back after a half-term break, but it seems our lovely listeners have been using that week to catch up on all our previous episodes, so thank you so much. As always, I'm Sarah Canning from the Property Marketing Strategists.

Speaker 3: 0:18

I'm Gann Smith from Resi Consultancy and I'm Deanie Lee from the Property Marketing Strategists. Now a word from our headline sponsor. And I'm Deanie Lee from the Property Marketing Strategists. Now a word from our headline sponsor. Season four of Housed is sponsored by mystudenthallscom. List your properties commission free and reach thousands of students searching for their university home.

Speaker 1: 0:36

Thank you so much to Dan and the team from my Student Halls for supporting us since the beginning. We're very grateful that they're here again as our headline sponsors. Anyone working within the student accommodation sector we suggest that you check them out. Make sure that you get all of your properties listed at this very important time of the season. And also a huge thank you to our sponsors, Wash Station and Utopia. More from them later. So we took a week off recording last week. I know that we didn't actually take a week off work. Anything interesting to report, Dan and Dini, from your half-term week. It seems like it's another school holiday, more bank holidays. It's been a really disruptive spring, really, hasn't it?

Speaker 3: 1:15

I think the bank holidays have not helped anyone, because they've all just been on top of each other. And I like bank holidays, but I'm kind of like, please can I just have a full working week.

Speaker 2: 1:23

I feel that I could have really done without half term and inset day to day. And you know all of the reasons for not being at work and I try to make sure that I'm dad first and foremost, so I do find that quite difficult. But yeah, it was testing, to say the least, but managed to get through it. And yeah, with inset day to day, I'll be zooming off to get the boys in a second dump them in sports camp yeah, I think I found I'm kind of navigating teenagers and how different it is.

Speaker 1: 1:54

So I haven't been needed physically as much this week but sorry, last week. But the mental load of dealing with teenagers is quite a lot. You know the the kind of stretching the, the wings of kind of independence and just thinking constantly is he safe, does he have his bike helmet, what time is he getting back, who is he with? You know, is his phone charged, like? And I'm tracking him and doing all of that. But I just find my brain kind of going a little bit over time dealing with that.

Speaker 1: 2:21

One really good thing that we did I did post it on LinkedIn, but I want to just say it's a really great recommendation is the Race Across the World experience in London Really really good. It's so lovely to spend such quality time with my teenager on something that we both equally enjoyed Seeing some lovely, lovely parts of London that I was really not very familiar with, across the city. You don't have to watch the programme, although we do. It's basically just a trail across London with clues, really difficult clues, so you need to work as a team and, you know, get your steps in in the sunshine across London. So, yeah, I highly recommend that.

Speaker 2: 2:53

I haven't thought of that. I saw your post on it so yeah, it looks like you and Jessie had fun. We're into Taskmaster in our household. I'm not sure whether we should be, given that I've got a six and a nine year old, but yeah, we'll certainly be on the lookout for that.

Speaker 1: 3:05

Great. So obviously it's been a couple of weeks since we were together in Leeds for UK Reef and, as promised, we thought we would come back this episode with some feedback and key takeaways. Dan, I'm going to come to you first because I did think about should we play your voice note from day one of you basically going I don't know where to go, I don't know who to see, where is everyone, I don't know what to watch, you know, and all of this stuff. But then I thought, no, I won't do that. You can talk it through in your own words about why you may have felt overwhelmed on day one.

Speaker 2: 3:39

Yeah, I was a newbie to UK Reef. I know you went last year and we're very grateful to the guys at UK Reef. Obviously, we get media tickets to most events, which is great, and, of course, very grateful to Vita Max and the team for putting us up at Vita Portland Crescent Lovely rooms, well worth it, but well worth it primarily because it was free. So, yeah, hashtag gifted. But yeah, I'm struggling to put my to summarize my thoughts because it's so massive like it's very overwhelming if you're a first timer. It is very overwhelming and I don't think the app really helped. If you know, the feedback from last year was well, we don't want an argos catalog of all of the events going on. We want an app. I just think, and having spoken to quite a few people, it's well worth them doing an app. It's a start. That was important, but you couldn't really find anyone that you wanted to unless you knew exactly who they were. You're not going to scroll through 16,000 different names and the filtering wasn't quite up to scratch. Events wise, yeah, it was good to see all the events on there, but, again, just really overwhelming and you couldn't. Then you could add it to your calendar Brilliant, that's what everyone wants to be able to do. I could add it to my Google calendar. I couldn't then see where those events were. They'd left off the place names. So that was a bit of a challenge to then have to flip between my calendar and then the app and then search through the app. So yeah, there's just a few things to iron out. I'm not surprised with that, like, this is still actually a relatively new event. And then got there. Process was really slick for me because I got there the day before. I went to the hotel and I checked in and I got my, got my ticket and my pass and and then, yes, there was a big line of people, but I think that moved quite quickly on the day of the event. I don't think that was a a major, a major issue. But then you know, I wasn't caught in it. I did take a couple of photos of it because it was snaking right the way along the canal.

Speaker 2: 5:34

I didn't have a huge number of meetings booked before the event. I knew a lot of people that were going and just figured I'd kind of catch them in passing. That didn't really happen so much because there are just so many people there Now I can walk up and down the concourse and see if I can catch a few people, you know, just just on the off chance. But I think all you know, most of the time these big events are done better when you know who's going. You can set up those meetings in advance. You know that there's a hub that you can go to to, yeah, to meet up with people, and I just didn't have that quite so much.

Speaker 2: 6:07

What I relied on at the end of the day was actually the fringe events, but I don't know how popular that's then going to be with uh, with with the team, with matt and the team at uk reef. But that's where there was a concentration of pbsa people and btr people in particular, because it was like a needle in a haystack at the actual event which is held at the royal armories museum in and around and effectively uk reef takes over the entire space. It's absolutely gigantic. It really is. It has to be to fit sort of 16 000 people in.

Speaker 2: 6:38

But I think as a result it felt quite it's not necessarily disjointed, I suppose that's that's the wrong word just like lots of little events here and there, and I think that that's where it would have been useful for us to have a pbsa or a btr or some kind of residential hub where we all knew that we could go to socialize with the people that we know within the industry. And you know because I don't want to bother anyone from logistics or whatever else, uh, or anyone from local government. Yeah, I, I can just see that there's tents where each tent has a sponsor and or, effectively, an owner and they then set the agenda and that some of the panel sessions and the speaker sessions for their tent and, as a result, I think it possibly felt disjointed at times because you had like three btr things at the same time. I wanted to go to all of them or a couple of prop tech things at the same time, and I think that could have been broken out a little bit better. But, yeah, I got gosh. That that is. That is a very that's a very disjointed bit of feedback, but overall, just to summarize it, it's a great event to meet people at the fringe events, especially some of the evening events that are just held in the city center, but you have to know people to get into a lot of those events or be asked to go to a dinner, and I think that the way to make that event better.

Speaker 2: 8:02

Speaking from someone who you know, I I did. I used to run an events company, so I do understand what it takes to run a good event. Nothing on the scale of UK Reef. Those guys have done, as I said, an incredible job.

Speaker 2: 8:13

The app needs work, the networking, in particular, needs work, and I think there needs to be a hub for residential or logistics or whatever it might be. So that's probably what I'd do, do next year. I'd carve out some space so that people could all meet in the same space, rather than having to rely on the fringe events which you know I think that was that was a very popular thing to do to go to, like the loft event, like we did, or the torsion or fusion events, or the arl event, whatever it might be. I think that's where a lot of people realize that they would probably get the most networking done. Now, I know that said to summarise, but when it came to the panel sessions, by far the best session was your session, sarah. So how did you find? Firstly, your session and obviously UK Reef overall.

Speaker 1: 8:58

So I think, with my session, I was very, very privileged to be asked to chair panel discussion, one of the only two PBSA focused panel discussions. It was on Thursday and a lot of people don't stay till Thursday. I don't know why. Why that is, if it's just too long, if because a lot of people come on Monday, so by kind of Wednesday evening they're running out of steam and don't temp. However, I feel like you know my my session was standing room only, I think the. I think the capacity was about 100 and there were probably 130 people in there and a lot of people came to that event and then left straight afterwards to catch trains, etc. So I'm really grateful that so many people did turn out. I think I've got some ideas on how they can make Thursday a bit, a bit better in in future, because they, you know, they need to keep people there longer.

Speaker 1: 9:43

I think you know the food street food was very, very empty on the Thursday and that's kind of not really fair on the vendors when they've been, you know, promised a three-day event etc. I really, really enjoyed chairing it. There were so many things that we didn't get to and I apologize because people came up afterwards and said oh, you know, you didn't get to immigration, you didn't get to the renter's rights bill and and it was like there was just so much to talk through in an hour's session. But I think we got through a lot and you know it was really really well engaged with, which just kind of shows that there is a demand for PBSA focused events.

Speaker 1: 10:13

And the same happened last year, didn't it, dean? The first event that we went to we couldn't even get into it was standing room only. So I think what you said is valid, dan, about kind of that sort of content. But Deanie and I did go to lots of other sessions, particularly around BTR and co-living, and PBSA was mentioned in every single one of those. So it might not have been the headline on the agenda, but it was certainly covered. What do you think, deanie?

Speaker 3: 10:38

yeah, I think that has been my reflection over the last couple of weeks is that it is probably still very much a real estate conference and pbsa for some reason is still very much a little bit outside of that real estate realm.

Speaker 3: 10:53

And I think, as sarah said, when we went to non-pbsa sessions, pbsa did come up and it's kind of coming up as a jewel in the crown and the only one that is really working well is pbsa, which was a shame because if we had more people that were kind of experts pbsas in those sessions, in those rooms, we could kind of talk about the challenges that pbsa facing, which it felt that in some of those sessions people didn't think that pbsa was coming across any challenges at all. I think there is a real opportunity there to kind of encourage that cross learning. So actually we yes, there needs to be sessions where you can meet and network with the people in your sector, but is there ways that we can encourage that cross learning and make real estate at PBSA much more part of that real estate world? So it's understood better.

Speaker 2: 11:41

Yeah, I mean it was. It was quite frustrating that there was an hour and 15 minutes dedicated to PBSA across the whole three days. It's way more mature than BTR or co-living. There's five times more beds in PBSA than there are in btr, and so why is pbsa not as well represented? Is it because btr and co-living are glossy and you have the likes of moda taking big tents there, which you know, don't get me wrong that would have cost an absolute fortune to to have that tent.

Speaker 2: 12:17

But there was, there was no real pbsa sponsorship. There were a few operators that had come en masse Homes for Students in particular, had done that, and I think that that's what we need to be championing. We need PBSA operators, developers, investors to be taking tents at UK Reef. But obviously that's a big investment investment. But you know, I, I know it led to calls for for us to potentially take a tent from some, from some places, so that at least residential living and pbsa, btr and co living have a space or a hub. But yeah, I mean christ, we'd need sponsors to do that. There's no way we could shell out from the sponsorship that we've had through the through the course of the year. But but yeah, to just have an hour and 15 minutes. That felt very light, very, very light. And then and I'd love to know that you know how many pbsa people were actually there compared to btr and co-living. But I think some of the sessions that I had I mean, like I said, the top session there was was your session, sarah by mile and yet it was standing room only easily 130 people in a very small tent. So again, I would say this year let's expand that, let's build on it, like, if you know I know we'll be chatting to Matt and possibly Nathan about it but definitely needs expanding and building on. Maybe it's just because BTR and co-living are the sexy part of the resi industry I don't really know, but it pbsa needs more impact next year and that might just come from within. We might need to push it a bit further. But I also think it's because pbsa has no representative body like the arl or whatever to to really drive that forward and push that messaging. So, yeah, that's a another challenge in itself.

Speaker 2: 14:03

But yeah, I saw some of the prop tech stuff too went went through the exhibition hall. Exhibition hall was good. There were quite some varied exhibitors there, from PropTech to a lot of carbon credit purchasing because I know quite a lot about all of the systems out there, so I don't need a pitch from a sales team and I know quite a lot about AI. And it was just scratching the surface on AI from what I could see. That for me just wasn't enough, didn't go deep enough. But again, maybe that's on me, maybe VerbiFlo need to be sponsoring next year, who knows? But yeah, I found it fascinating. Yeah, I did thoroughly enjoy the event, primarily for the networking, but it was very overwhelming.

Speaker 1: 14:54

What I would say about the exhibition hall and I find this whenever I go to an exhibition or a freshers fair or a housing fair. It was amazing how many people were sat at their stands, working on their laptops, sitting down behind desks or even empty. We walked around a couple of times. The same exhibitors had nobody on their stand. You know, I think that was probably on the Wednesday and it's like, actually, if you're going to pay for money to be there, then you really really want to be engaging with people. They all look thoroughly bored and, you know, put out to have been stuck on a stool, really you're right, they were so bored.

Speaker 2: 15:29

It was just, it was just looking, looking, and don't get me wrong, there were enough people going into the hall. I think. I don't think that was the problem. I just think that maybe it's real estate people, maybe they don't actually know how to sell because you know it was a case of just or potentially, who knows, maybe uk reef said, look, don't make this too aggressive, but the best performing stand there by a mile was this Formula One racing simulator, because that was exciting and engaging. Please stop rocking up with just a banner and then sit on your stool and get on your phone Like. We have to be much more dynamic about the way we approach sales at events in particular. So yeah, I totally agree with you, sarah. I saw that too.

Speaker 3: 16:12

Yeah, I think that is absolutely right. It's actually there wasn't much interest going on in those stands, even the ones that were with people at them, and I think that you're right. It's a real opportunity to actually kind of make you stand apart and make it a bit fun and really engage with the audience. I do wonder whether what we haven't touched on is that the weather was really really good it was really really hot in Leeds and I do wonder whether that meant that many people that probably should have been in the exhibition hall kind of snuck out because it was so lovely and warm outside.

Speaker 1: 16:43

And however it was I mean, we were there last year and it rained and it was the most biblical washout on one of the days. This year we have the opposite issue, that it was so warm but actually some of the marquees were so unbearably hot that people couldn't stand and people couldn't stay. I mean, who's taught that we'd have this problem in in the UK, that's? You know, that's a whole other climate change discussion, I would. I would suggest. But yeah, you can't win with an event in the UK, can you?

Speaker 2: 17:11

So here's a big question If you didn't get a free ticket, would you be buying one?

Speaker 1: 17:18

Oh damn.

Speaker 2: 17:19

That is a big one, sorry.

Speaker 1: 17:21

I think we would be in Leeds because so many people were there. We did some really great property tours while we were there because operators invited us to come and look at their properties, which was really, really valuable. We did the fringe events. I did like some of the sessions, but I wonder, if I was buying a ticket, if I would rather buy a ticket for a day to go in. If I looked at the agenda and picked out the sessions, I feel Thursday was a problem, if I'm honest, and I think if I was buying a three-day ticket, I think I would have a problem with the third day as it stands. If I'm being completely honest, I think the whole vibe, I think what they've created, is brilliant and I wouldn't have wanted to miss out and I would have wanted to be there, but I'm not sure I would have wanted to be in the iron ring of UK Reef for the whole three days.

Speaker 3: 18:10

I think, when it comes to it, totally agree with everything you're saying. I think we'd definitely be in Leeds, but I think that if we did that, we'd end up thinking we should have a ticket and we missed out on stuff because you'd get massive FOMO. Sarah, I know you'd have major FOMO?

Speaker 2: 18:23

You definitely would. You'd have major FOMO about missing out on some of the panel sessions, for sure. But, sarah, I completely agree. So I would say if anyone is umming and ahhing about whether to go to UK Reef, I would say, definitely be in Leeds. It's well worth it, but it's worth just knowing who's doing fringe events and what and what have you.

Speaker 2: 18:42

I would probably pick a day, possibly two, but I would make sure that it was. It wasn't just a 15 minute event or whatever. The PBSA was shoehorned into and I feel for tuli from student crowd, who did a brilliant job focusing on london and she was on a panel with with cbre and took up 13 minutes of the 15 minute session. So fair play to her. But I would pick very carefully which sessions I would want to attend. I would definitely look at just getting a ticket for one day or possibly two.

Speaker 2: 19:11

I do think there is a lot of value that comes from being in the concourse seeing all of the exhibitors. You will meet some people that you might need to. You will see some sessions that will inspire you. But yeah, I think being in Leeds around that time is pretty much essential, very much like it was for me in Mipham last year, where I just went to Cannes just to go and see what it was like. I know quite a few people who have done the same for UK Reef this year. Some of them will definitely have wanted to get a ticket but didn't because they were just put off by the price. And so I would say, if you can sort of break out those days and make it more relevant to you in that way, then then great.

Speaker 1: 19:54

I think you make with of these events what you want. You know I'm I know I'm amazed still that people buy tickets for one day events and then turn up late and leave early to go to the pub. You know, I'm still amazed how many people buy tickets for events and don't turn up, and you know they haven't turned up because their lanyard is still at reception, you know. So I kind of feel like if you're going to go to an event and you're going to spend the money, then you just have to make the absolute most of it, and I think there's so many opportunities to do that at UK Reef. You can make the event exactly what you want it exactly.

Speaker 1: 20:23

I guess what we're just saying is don't necessarily look for the obvious on the agenda, you should go to learn something. And actually Dini like really drove that home to me because we were getting a little bit overwhelmed by the sessions and, like you said, a lot of them were overlapping at the same time. I think it was on the Wednesday afternoon and there was one on the renters rights bill and I said, Dini, we need to be there, we should be there. And we looked at the panellists and we said, you know, we've done so much work on this, we've spoken to so many experts, are we going to learn anything from that session? And we came to the conclusion that we probably wouldn't come across anything new and our time would be better spent at another session.

Speaker 1: 20:59

So I think we sometimes need to branch out of what's familiar and not just go to the sessions that you know have the words that we're familiar with in the title or the panellist. And we really learn a lot from the VTR and co-living sessions that we went to, because we do probably go to quite a lot of student accommodation conferences throughout the year which are really specialist in those topics, whereas we probably go to less BTR and co-living events because there are less. So actually I think we took that opportunity at UK Reef to learn something new and attend things that were kind of outside of our comfort zone and know that the kind of networking side of things we got more from in the fringe events. But I think we took a lot from the panel discussions. So, yeah, thanks. I guess you know, and the cost-wise, that earlier you booked, the cheaper it is. So you know that's the best way to kind of save money. You know, if you want to try the sessions next year, we're going to hear from one of our sponsors now.

Speaker 3: 21:49

Wash Station proudly sponsor this episode of Housed. We provide best in class laundry solutions that complement your buildings. Wash Station smart, green, clean.

Speaker 1: 22:00

Thank you so much, wash Station. We really enjoy working with you and in fact when we were in Leeds we went to one of the properties that you are installed in, actually Wash Station. So we really enjoyed hearing the feedback from clients about how brilliantly they find your service. So anyone else that's looking to change up their laundry program do get in touch with Wash Station.

Speaker 1: 22:21

One topic that I want to come on to next is a report that I read called the Cities After Dark. It was by Urbacht and it was really interesting. I think the reason that I found it interesting is because I've been reading a lot about kind of the nighttime economy. I've thought about this quite a lot in relation to, you know, women and how placemaking impacts women, mainly because of other books and things I've read. And I think over the years, particularly in PBSA buildings, I started to think are they designed for night? You know, is the lighting designed for night? Are the entrances, exits, are the street lighting designed for night? And the more I think about it and after I read this report, the more I've come to the conclusion that they're not really, you know, are our places being designed for 24-7 living? So I've linked this back to kind of students particularly so.

Speaker 1: 23:15

Nick Hillman stated at the LD event that 57% of full-time undergraduates have jobs during term time. So can they get there quickly, cheaply and efficiently, assuming they'll be working potentially night time and weekends, you know. So you've got that transport thing as well. We just did a report for a client and it's quite a small university town and the students are looking to work, get employment, and they can't do that in that town and they're really struggling because of the transport system to get to and from their work. And that's in the daytime. You know, I can't even imagine how they would, you know, get to bar work or evening work or shift work, you know, in that town, and if they, if they so wished, and then you kind of, apart from the transport, you kind of leverage. You know what is there to do at night, you know? Are restaurants and shops open late? Is there entertainments? Are the routes backwards and forwards safe?

Speaker 1: 24:08

In our latest youth forum on sustainability, 21% cited public transport as an important reason based on sustainability as an influence on where to live. There could be public transport, but what if there's only one an hour and the route stops at 7pm? You know that would massively impact how people enjoy their lifestyle. You know how they get to and from places, how they work. You know lighting surveys. Are they done at night? You know, I think, that building social spaces that we usually see are usually really really brightly lit. You know that. You know you could walk past some of these buildings and it looks like you know Piccadilly Circus because it's so illuminated. And do people want to live like that in the evening? Do they want more mood lighting? Do they want it to be, you know, more subtle and feel a bit more homely rather than, you know, bright, bright lights all the time? So, yeah, I just learned a lot from it. I thought it was interesting. What do you think, dan?

Speaker 2: 24:58

I just wonder if PBSA has more of a role to play in terms of amenities here, because I've just just looked it up there are 10 nightclubs closing every month in the UK. You know we've lost sort of 40% of nightclubs over the last four years. Is there that shift in student mindset that they're not bothered about going out to nightclubs, and is it more of a bar culture at which point the kickout time's that bit earlier and then are they going to be looking to come back and are they going to need those amenities in PBSA or BTR or co-living? I wonder whether there's an opportunity there Now. Take Vita. Obviously we've got a really good example there. It's exam time, so the students are or co-living. I wonder whether there's an opportunity there now. Take take vita. Obviously we've got a really good example there. It's exam time, so the students were actually using the social areas not to decompress or party or whatever, but actually to study and study right the way around the clock, like there were. There were people studying until very late in the morning. I know that after one night in particular, watching Spurs win the UEFA Cup, that they were still working well beyond 2am 3am in the morning. So I think there is that balance that PBSA and BTR in particular have to strike there. But I wonder if we are set up and fit for purpose, and I do think that the travel is the biggest issue. You know, thinking about Birmingham, thinking about Aston University and everything in and around there, you have to go into Birmingham city centre for kind of nightclubs, then you have to traipse back, probably through that slightly ropey underpass, to your accommodation, as you well know. I can see you smirking and I think that's where safety really comes into play. So are we back in that stage of then the university stepping back in to put wardens in or, you know, transport wardens or whatever that might look like, to sort of help get people back home? So yeah, I'm really interested by that study and I think it's great that you're bringing that up.

Speaker 3: 26:56

Yeah, I thought it was great that there is actually a cities after dark network and actually they all get together and do study tours and work together to see where best practice is, because ultimately, like you say, dan, there is so many closing venues down and lack of public transport and lots of reasons why we're not utilising the cities and amenities that are in our cities because people don't feel safe or they can't get there though there's not a network to do it.

Speaker 3: 27:22

So I think the fact that this exists is is brilliant and actually it comes back down to what we always say is that this is about collaboration.

Speaker 3: 27:29

This is about residential buildings, local authorities, public transport and all that network coming together and saying, actually, how can we improve this, which is going to, ultimately, if people can get out, if people can get out to work, that's just bringing more money into the economy, which is going to help boost that investment. So and it's amazing to see this, and actually I was going through the kind of journal and thinking, oh, because I think a lot of it is funded by the European Union think, oh, we're not even part of this, we're not even doing this. But I was very pleased to see that London was in there and all the London boroughs are working as part of this network to improve that night-time economy. But I guess the question is is London as far as it's gone? Is there any other cities that are doing this? And actually, what more can we learn to really make our cities safer and more pleasant places to be after dark?

Speaker 1: 28:15

I think the nighttime thing also plays into the design of buildings as well and I think you know we've done quite a lot of work on this, deanie. But you have to kind of remember that we're in a digital age and the way that people live is really really different now because people can access digital 24-7. You know they're not necessarily doing a 9-to-5 study day or a 9-to to five work day. You know there's plenty of people living in BTR and co living that work shifts, that work all different. You know times and you know with student accommodation we've surveyed students who said that the soundproofing is really bad and that might have not really impacted people so much 15, 20 years ago, but now they're probably on Skype, they're on FaceTime. You know that kind of sound is going to travel. I know, because my kids are on FaceTime all the time that sound travels. You know it's certainly going to travel between thin walls of you know rooms in the same. You know same way, that kind of. You know we talk so much about amenities and you know, yes, they're open 24 seven, but you know what time are events on. I think you know why are we not having fitness classes, yoga classes at six or seven o'clock.

Speaker 1: 29:21

A lot of staffing models are nine to five, which is when the students are generally out at university.

Speaker 1: 29:28

You know, we need to kind of shift what happens in those buildings to meet with the demands of new customers. And you know, I just feel like you know, actually they'd probably get a lot more engagement from staff if they were working 5pm till nine or 10pm. That's when they're likely to see a lot more footfall. But what is going on in those buildings Is it kind of supporting the night time economy. And we also have to remember we live in England for most people that are listening, and in winter it can be dark at four o'clock. So when we're talking about night time we're really talking about 4pm onwards, for six months of the year, you know, and that a social life, entertainment, work, shouldn't just die a death at four o'clock, you know, six months of the year. So, yeah, I think it's one to watch out for and you know, we'd really like to see kind of more, I guess, purposeful design that kind of considers a 24-7 lifestyle rather than, you know, just a nine-to-five one. Right?

Speaker 3: 30:32

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Speaker 2: 30:41

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Speaker 1: 30:51

If you're in asset management or operations and care about performance, utopia is your essential partner. Find out more at utopiacouk. That's U-T-O-P-I. Dot, co, dot, uk. Thank you so much, utopia. We really love working with you as well and we're really looking forward to an exclusive Utopia interview coming up in an episode in a couple of weeks time. We've just got a really really kind of quick few minutes just to talk about American university policy. I mean, we can barely keep up with what Trump's saying and doing on a daily basis really, so by the time this goes live, who knows what will have happened since. But the latest thing that I'm referring to, you know, is particularly a tightening of restrictions of international students, and Harvard seems to have been the institution you know picked out here. Dan, I know that you talk to agents and marketplaces a lot. There's been so much turbulence in America about international students the past few weeks is are they seeing any bounce back to the UK yet?

Speaker 2: 31:48

no, I, the sentiment is there. The anti-American sentiment now is there from Chinese students and various others too, but it's more of a case of where the hell do they go then? So the US is revoking visas for Chinese students in particular and scrutinizing more applications from international students on a global level. It's like I could get really political here. I'm not going to. I do enough of that on LinkedIn. We're not seeing anything in the data as yet, like we saw this when Trump got got in. We saw this big bounce of us students looking at studying abroad like huge bounce, and that was from study portals, from the data that they'd seen. We're not really seeing that materialize massively.

Speaker 2: 32:29

I still think it's a huge potential market for the uk. I think us students is untapped and we need to be looking more at that. But I am having spoken to marketplaces and agents. There really is some anti-american sentiment out there. The chinese government basically saying study at home, don't bother going to the us. Firstly, it's really expensive and you don't have as much money as you used to, but secondly, they just don't want you there. It's a real hostile environment.

Speaker 2: 32:53

So I do think there will be. There will be a bounce for the uk or australia or elsewhere, but will it be the uk really that they favor, given that that we're just about to reduce the graduate route from two years to 18 months again, that's a hostile move towards international students which infuriates me. I am genuinely spitting feathers with kirstama for bowing to pressure from daily mail readers and that's that's what's happening. I honestly thought better of him and it feels like he's trying to appease reform by doing that. I've covered that before. I've covered that numerous times on linkedin. I get asked about it a lot and actually I'm going on to a call in a second which hopefully might enable a bit more lobbying of government.

Speaker 2: 33:36

But yeah, we're not seeing a huge amount of movement at the moment, but I would expect it come the end of the year. I do think we will start to see that we've picked up more Chinese students in particular coming to the UK instead of going to America, and potentially more American students because they just don't want to study there or they're worried about what the hell Trump's going to do with their applications because he's revoking them for international students and a lot of the work that he's done by really pushing Harvard to the brink, I think, is pretty worrying for American students. I think that we will see a bump. I don't think it's going to be massive, I think it'd be marginal gains. And I think that we will see a bump. I don't think it's going to be massive, I think it'd be marginal gains and I think that we will see slightly more US students and hopefully quite a lot more Chinese students in particular. But I wouldn't I'm not holding my breath for that.

Speaker 3: 34:26

Politics aside, are people adjusting their strategies for this change or shift Like? I question whether universities or student accommodation operators are actually change their targeting to American students or to other international students that might formerly be looking at America. I worry that it's let's just see what happens and actually not a strategic approach into attracting those students. So it kind of there is potentially an opportunity here, you know, in a murky world it's an opportunity, but are we maximizing that opportunity? I think would be my question.

Speaker 1: 34:58

I think the conversations that I've had at conferences over the last few weeks from PBSA operators is is it a late market? When are they coming? And this is probably just another thing that kind of keeps that there, like you said, dini, without maybe a purposeful strategy behind it, just hope anyway. So thank you so much to my student halls for being our headline sponsor and we love working with you and your support is hugely appreciated. And, of course, thank you to Utopia and Wash Station. We're also grateful for your support. If you work in the PBSA, btr, co-living, hmo, university accommodation sectors and later living and enjoy our weekly podcast, please give it a rating and review it on your podcast channel of choice. We will see you again next week.