Housed: The Shared Living Podcast
Sarah Canning and Deenie Lee of The Property Marketing Strategists have teamed up with Daniel Smith of Student Housing Consultancy to discuss the latest news, views and insights in the shared living sector.
Each episode they will be delving into a wide variety of subjects and asking the questions which aren't often asked.
This podcast is a must for anyone working in Student Accommodation, BTR, Co-Living, Operational Real Estate or Shared Living.
Housed: The Shared Living Podcast
Student Accommodation Podcast Summit #2 - Reflecting & Projecting with Special Guests Jenny Shaw, Stephen Willis & Timothy Owen
Our special bonus episode brings together some of the sharpest minds in the sector for a timely and thought-provoking conversation on where student accommodation is heading next.
Sarah Canning, Deenie Lee and Dan Smith are joined by Timothy Owen of Birmingham University, Jenny Shaw and Stephen Willis of Kexgill to tackle the big issues shaping the future of student living.
In this episode, we dive into:
• What the future student accommodation product really needs to deliver
• The growing impact of commuting students
• Affordability — and what can realistically be done
• Town & Gown relationships that actually work
• Building stronger, more connected communities
Stay up to date on Housed podcast via its LinkedIn page.
Dan Smith is Founder of RESI Consultancy and Co-Founder of Verbaflo.AI Good Management.
Sarah Canning and Deenie Lee are Directors and Co-Founders of The Property Marketing Strategists - Elevating Marketing in Property.
Thank you to our season four sponsors:
MyStudentHalls - Find your ideal student accommodation across the UK.
Utopi - The smart building platform helping real estate owners protect the value of their assets.
Washstation - Leading provider of laundry solutions for Communal and Campus living throughout the UK and Ireland.
Hello and welcome to this very special bonus episode of How the Share Living Podcast, because we wanted to give our lovely listeners a festive present and have better than a bumper episode with some incredible guests. But first it would be remiss of me not to mention that we have some award winners in mum in a minute. We couldn't split that in because we didn't have a mummy. Um but welcome to um and also welcome very much to Stephen and we have a woman. It was um yeah, we were very delightful to be um be at the event anyway. Um even without winning the award. Anyway, I'm Sembra from the Property Marketing Strategists.
SPEAKER_02:I'm Sam. I'm the Lebra from Miami and Radio Consultancy.
SPEAKER_03:I'm Delie from the Property Marketing Strategists. And about 18 months ago, we recorded a student accommodation podcast summit, and we intended it to be a more regular occurrence, um, but to get the right guest takes a lot of coordination, and so here we are at the end of 2025, but better late than never. So we're in an actual studio today, and we have Jenny. Would you like to introduce yourself?
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, I'm Jenny Shaw from Unite Students, but not for very much longer was this space.
SPEAKER_03:Um Stephen.
SPEAKER_00:Hi, I'm Steve Willis from Keckskill. We trade onto the brand of University Quarter.
SPEAKER_03:And last but not least, Timothy.
SPEAKER_00:Uh Timmo, University of Berlin.
SPEAKER_03:Fantastic. Thank you all for joining us today. Um, and um I think for the very first time we're professionally recording this as well. So you can not only listen, but if you really want to see our bleary eyes, we timed this particularly badly off the back of uh the property week student accommodation boards last night. So if you do want to see the bags and um us looking a little bit bleary, you can watch this as well. Anyway, today we will be covering some of the key topics and themes from 2025 along with a bit of festive fun. Although, can it be noted that anyone watching? I'm the only one that follows the directions who wear something festive. Somebody has something on the mug in the Christmas TV. Absolutely unfortunately. So first of all, let's take a look back at 2025. Um, and you know, what would you all say is the most significant change or highlight um from student accommodation from the past 12 months? Who wants to go first? I'm gonna I'm gonna go to our award winner, Steve.
SPEAKER_00:Well, it's very, very topical because we won the award. I think you did mention that, and and it is there on show for those who want to see it for the most or the best affordable accommodation. And I think the biggest change this year is the that need to focus on affordability and the impact that's having on students.
SPEAKER_03:I don't know about you you all, but I feel like at Property Week this year I was having conversations with multiple operators who were saying we're looking into affordable accommodation. Previous years it was very much it can't be done. Yeah. And actually, I feel you're you're absolutely right. I feel like the tide has has turned, probably, you know, let you've led the way there.
SPEAKER_04:I think that was the absolute change yesterday at Property Week was that for so long it's been it can't be done, it can't be done, it can't be done, whereas yesterday was it's really, really difficult, but it needs to be done, and we need to find a solution. And that was a big change yesterday, and I think that was a good change. Absolutely.
SPEAKER_01:Which do you think's driven that then? Why why are people suddenly engaging in something they weren't before?
SPEAKER_04:Good question. Occupancy? They're not getting the occupancy levels that they need, and there's been a realisation, I guess, that actually we can't just keep hiking the price and hoping the trend's going to change and things are gonna get better, and that it's a blip, you know, for so long it's always been a blip. And I think it's several people actually came up to me yesterday and said that this year that the general story was it's just late, it's just late, and there's a hope that it was just late and it wasn't just late. There's a shift and there's a change, and we've got to change, so it's hitting in the pockets.
SPEAKER_01:And I just feel like this is how it's gonna be now. Yeah, we've been through such a period of of growth, and it's now going the other way, and the volatility just seems so well, it's here to stay, and and it's good maybe that now people are accepting that we have to plan for that in the long term rather than just be reactive.
SPEAKER_02:I think it's that it's what everybody is now calling the normalization of demand, and I think you know, as United coined it in the um uh in the report because it is getting tougher to fill those beds. The students are it's volatile, the demand city to city is very volatile, internationals, postgrads, domestics, it doesn't matter. It is all very volatile at the moment, and and I think what we're seeing is that move towards recalibration of those rents that got really carried away post-COVID. That post-COVID boom, there were quite a few investors that ploughed into the market around that time. And it just means that yes, some of those are casualties of getting carried away, and they're all a little bit hung over now, as some of us might be, um, that you know they can't get those returns that they originally wanted, that the occupancy is not where they wanted it to be. And I was talking to someone this morning saying um that actually this is sort of a 90% market. If you've hit 90% in any market, you've done really, really well. As a PBSA, as a university hall, it doesn't matter. That's where we're at. We're not at the 98% anymore. I do not see us returning to that kind of level of occupancy. I think, again, it comes back to what we said on the podcast pretty much at the start of the year you can have occupancy or you can have revenue, but you cannot have both in this market. That I that sentiment I think is here to stay.
SPEAKER_00:And the market research said for 30 years that student accommodation was two expenses every year, but the most expensive student accommodation sold first. And that was the the contradiction that has stopped. Yeah. KeckSkill has always believed in providing that based on its values, but I think the market reality is now getting a lot of competitors to say that's what we have to do.
SPEAKER_03:It's just moving with the market and the you know, the market, the demand, um, the demographic, you know, it has changed, and so you know, the product has to change as well. You know, you see that in every part of, you know, I don't know, retail or um F and B, you know, people change with the market. It feels like actually it this sector has been very, very slow to change with that. And I know you know, we probably will carry on talking in this podcast about the demographics and those changes, but you can't ignore that, it's not the same as 10 years ago, 12 years ago, 15 years ago. So we we do have to move with it.
SPEAKER_04:But was that also kind of what you were saying about kind of the most expensive room sold first? But was that masking the fact that that was still probably stopping people going off to university or given the reputation of university being expensive and living away? So, in a way, this change that we're seeing with commuting students has probably been quite gradual because there's been a small percentage every year that's kind of done the research and gone, ooh, I can't afford that. And then that's slowly growing into much more of a bigger percentage than we're now beginning to see.
SPEAKER_00:I I absolutely think so, but I do believe it's it was accelerated post-COVID. Yeah. So that that increase in construction costs is real, and that has accelerated. I mean, inflation was running at two and a half percent for year on year. When that becomes 12%, that's the equivalent of five years of inflation overnight, and that's how it felt. So that construction increase has has precipitated that change.
SPEAKER_01:If you come back to the affordability thing, we talk about more commuter students and that being a threat to our businesses, is a threat to the whole higher education industry. On top of that, that people are saying, is higher education affordable, is it value for money? And I think that's the other big thing this year, that you know the questions seem to be much more openly being asked. Um whereas I think for a long, long time it was still considered the right of passage, and everyone thought that was the best thing for your child to go to university, and that was the message that parents were saying to their children. I'm not sure that's still the case, or at least I think the question is being asked more and it's being considered more deeply, and I think that's an even more fundamental threat to our business. And I think from our perspective as higher education institutions, but all of us as a sector, we've got to contribute to making that case how important higher education is. Um and also we need to bang the drum for the residential experience as well, because that comes about, you know, it's it's not just about affordability, it's about value for money and that perception around what you're getting for that money as well.
SPEAKER_02:I totally agree. I think with um that's a nice segue to talk about you know the viability of higher education and and how you know the is it really delivering the value in this era of AI in particular, but also the area of of affordability, I think that is something that obviously we're going to talk about now. But I I do question how accommodation operators have also then shifted entire cities to then drive out students and and affect the application rates as well. So places like Bristol, like Glasgow, for example, I think have seen drops because the affordability has just gone absolutely through the roof. So I think we're we're now dealing with students thinking, how much is it going to cost me to live somewhere? Maybe I'll commute, and also with students thinking, hang on a minute, do I actually need a degree? Like what does this look like? And you bring that through to some of the policy shifts that we've seen as well. You know, Tony Blair was uh was the one who wanted 50% of school leavers to go to university, and our government this September just rolled that back and said, actually, we're gonna scrap that. We don't think that that needs to happen. We think that, yes, more um school leavers should be going into higher education, but not necessarily the traditional university path, the shorter courses maybe uh a bit of further education rather than the typical university degree. So there are some serious shifting sands for the entire um uh higher education landscape, and I think it's it is on universities now to stay relevant, and I think the onus is very much on them. So it's um they're not getting any guidance from government, and it is very much you have to kind of save yourselves, but whether that leadership is in place that's sort of helping to encourage and oversee universities or not, and whether that is uh in place at the universities is yeah, remains to be seen as yet. So I I mean, in terms of the how Birmingham in particular is showcasing that value for students, how how are you doing that at the moment?
SPEAKER_01:Well I think I think the constant battle is it's about saying what will be the difference between getting a degree from the University of Birmingham with getting a degree from any other institution, because effectively our competition we think is with other universities. So we're trying to do various different initiatives. So one of the things we're trying to do at the moment to support the international recruitment agenda is around um employability post-study. And traditionally, universities have been pretty good at you know putting in place career services for students who remain in the UK or for UK students to get jobs post-degree. What we've actually launched this year in partnership with Glasgow is in-country career services now in China and in India. Um and that's uh a playwright say, you know, we realise that particular Chinese students, a significant portion of the students do return home and their job market is really challenging at the moment. Youth unemployment in China is is is is high. Um so we're hopefully contributing to that message that you know we're not just gonna take your money, we're gonna educate you, and then when you go home, we're gonna help you there as well to get your career on the right path. So that's just one initiative that that we're doing at the moment. And it is really good, you know, in its early days, it's the first year of that. But hopefully that message will become clear because uh it it's all about for us saying if you come here, this is good value for money. And and it's not just about the teaching, the student experience on campus, the residential experience. It's almost a lifelong commitment because you're gonna be repaying that debt, whether you're part of the UK loan system, whether you've taken loans uh internationally at home, or whether it's family money. You know, there is a debt somewhere that you're repaying, and you need to you need to have confidence that you're gonna be able to repay that one way or another.
SPEAKER_02:Um so that's just one initiative that we're doing at the moment to try and that focus on graduate outcomes is so vital. I can't stress that enough that every university needs to be thinking, what are those students going to do with those degrees at the end of it? I mean, I I took French and politics at Lafburg because I wasn't sure what I wanted to do, couldn't be a French politician, so just sort of did my own thing for a bit. I think we're probably moving to an era where students leaving school are so focused on one particular role. When they finish university, they know what they need to do. Excuse me. Partly because of AI and the way that's changing the workplace, but partly because I think there just has to be that focus from universities to say you don't just go out into the workplace and you could just go to the you know careers fair and just take your pick from the stalls that you see. It is going to become much more focused. And I do feel like that's the way we're moving. So great that Birmingham's so focused on um graduate outcomes there. I think that's been missing from universities for quite a long time.
SPEAKER_01:The evidence is there of the benefit of our education. Yeah, of course. I I think there's just this swirl of other information, competing information, and we've just got to make sure our voice is heard you know the loudest in that, because if we don't, we know it will happen.
SPEAKER_05:But I I do wonder what the alternatives are realistically for um people leaving school. And uh, I've been around long enough to see these cycles come and go, and it's always the case that if the job market is very difficult, more people go into higher education. And I know there's a lot of rhetoric from government about you know having different pathways, but I'm not I'm not sure they're there in the right uh volume to to to take away. So I I think I would expect I would expect that the demand will will continue, and I think that's what we're seeing still so far. Whether that is a residential experience still, that is a different question, but I think the the fundamentals are still very strong with higher education, albeit it is changed because it costs a lot more now. Um but I found um uh a stat just recently on an international basis, participation in higher higher education just keeps going up across across the world, and yet a graduate premium is still staying strong, it's still the same. So it's still it's still a good option. But I think what we maybe want to be talking about is is a residential um experience, still what people want and what people can afford and what they need.
SPEAKER_04:And I think I was gonna come back to you, Tim, around kind of because you just talked about we've got to really promote the residential experience, and I think this came up at Property Week as well, around actually more and more students are going off to university and not having the life skills to actually live away. And actually, is there is that actually a benefit in actually sending your children off to university to actually learn those life skills? Because this is a worry of mine, is that actually if we have a whole generation of people that don't go off and have that opportunity to have that halfway house where you're being independent but you've got a backstop, and that's where I found myself, where I learnt a lot about myself, where I kind of mixed with a broad spectrum of different people that I wouldn't have done if I had gone straight from kind of school into into work. And I learnt a lot, and I learned a lot about me, I learned a lot of skills that I kind of took into the workforce and um and developed who I am today, really. And I kind of feel that actually we probably don't talk about that enough to parents that actually, yes, the degree is an important thing, and I think with when kind of tuition fees increased, it made students really focused on job outcomes. Whereas I went off to university like you Dan, you just pick a course and you go into it and you see what happens. That kind of left in 2012. That hasn't been the case for a long time, but actually, there's so many more added benefits of actually you're going to be a much more productive, rounded, independent, able person by going away and having that experience of living away at university.
SPEAKER_03:Just want to cut in before you go. I do think generationally that's the problem is that a lot of parents were in the heyday of universities and the party lifestyle. So is there still a view? And you probably hear that you know that the parents think that they're going to send their child away to university and it's still just party time. Are they not yet seeing that that how that shift has changed, and maybe they're not seeing the value?
SPEAKER_04:Before Tim does answer, I did I mentioned this to someone yesterday, which is a total aside. But I remember when I went off to university, my dad, and all three of us, I'm one of three, and when I came back, my dad said to all of us, you guys just went off to university to learn how to drink, and that's precisely. Sorry, Tim.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, is that still the narrative?
SPEAKER_01:I think the parents still do misunderstand what it is and and certainly what they expect from accommodation. I mean, I'm about to go through this with my eldest daughter, and I know some of you have been through it recently, you know, actually going around at open days and that experience and being frightened as to how expensive the accommodation is. Who knew that? Um, and but I think what I'd also say about this this generation coming through is I I I think they're they're talked about quite pejoratively by people about being the snowflake generation and all that kind of stuff. So I I think that's really unfair because they've actually been through quite a lot of stuff that we didn't go through growing up. They're exposed to a whole load of different things. Pandemic, social media is is there. Um I actually think they cope really well with a very diff difficult environment, but they're still as ill-prepared for university and for growing up as we were. Um and I think it is a good way of people gaining the independence, getting the opportunity to learn life skills. And I think because there is this narrative about this generation needing a bit more of that support around them, I think we can play on that. We can we can we can lean into that and make that case that we do have something to offer that's that's different. I think where we've always got to be careful as higher education is that we don't say actually the only way to get a good experience out of higher education is to come and have the residential experience because that's not true either. Um and you know, we we welcome all types of students, whether they want to come and live with us or not, they will have a great experience, they will get great educational outcomes. We think there is an added value in coming to live with us, but you know, you're paying for that as well, so it's it's a choice you can make. Um but I but I think uh there is certainly an opportunity for us to make a bit more often.
SPEAKER_05:I think sorry Jenny. I was gonna say that's a really good point to make because there are valid reasons why some people do not take that residential experience, and I think there's even a there's a a danger that there will be that two-tier system um if if that residential uh experience is seen as the like the gold standard, and that's going to be on um sort of socioeconomic grounds, so you you know you you're creating that divide if you're not careful, so yeah. Um can I can I just jump in with two or three points.
SPEAKER_00:I mean, firstly, I think that that parent generation now just party award ceremonies, as far as I can tell, rather than universities, and that's something that the students can look forward to. I do think students are even less well prepared for university than when we were going. I was a commuter student myself, then I worked in higher education for 30 years. Years subsequently. So I'd never um never actually stayed on a university campus until I worked there. And then I was absolutely certain I wanted my children to go to university, not for the degree, but for the experience and what they would gain from that from that independence, but also the fact it was so cosmopolitan. It's the first time that I came across so many different cultures and people, and we really need our young people, or everybody, to have that opportunity, and often it's the best place it can happen.
SPEAKER_02:I totally agree because I think we're we're a little bit polarised at the moment, to say the least, in our politics and in our society, and I think that not having that exposure to different cultures, different nationalities, and at various different points in your life, I think makes people a lot poorer. So I I think, yes, of course, you know, we know that students can commute and do commute and more likely will commute, partly because of the affordability crisis that we're facing in student accommodation. But I do think there's so much to be said for that life experience, that residential experience, and how beneficial it is. So the onus again is on it's on universities to be able to provide that um uh accommodation that is affordable, but it's also on the private sector to be able to provide that. And if we don't do it, students just will not be able to get that experience.
SPEAKER_00:I I I very much agree. I think the the need and the want for our students to realise that there are lots of different views out there, and that's fine. And we can learn that to accept that people have different views and we can discuss those things, and we don't have to agree on everything, is is is critical. Universities have huge supply chains. Yeah. So the onus is on the whole supply chain and partnership. And that's very much the case in terms of residential or student accommodation, but I would argue that's the case in most of the supply chain. Work with your university, it's in everybody's interest. We'll talk about the civic value of universities, but you know, we what city would say, do you know what? I don't want this university in my city any longer.
SPEAKER_06:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:They are essential to everything that happens, and so that supply chain needs to work as closely as it can with its uh it's a good chance for you to talk about the award that you won last night.
SPEAKER_02:So so so, yeah, how did that collaboration work ultimately?
SPEAKER_00:It's uh it's it's uh I'll try and keep the story relatively brief because I was the chief financial officer at Hull University when this partnership really grew, and I was approached by the then sole uh managing director, now joint managing director with myself, Richard Stott, some seven or eight years ago, and asked if we would be interested in selling uh 189 terraced houses that the university owned right outside of the campus because Kexkill owned a number of houses and they wanted to create a community quarter.
SPEAKER_06:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:And I got to know Richard and I got to know the company, and we were looking for a development of new student accommodation on campus, which we did with UPP, which is a great partnership and a great development. But we wanted somewhere where the students were going to go in their second and third year and have that community experience, and we couldn't afford to invest in our student accommodation. We needed to invest in our academic buildings, and so we we found a partner who were willing to upgrade buildings, terrace houses that have been left to get into a poor state for many years. And it was the attitude of Richard and the team which was we're in this for the students. They didn't just buy the houses, convert them, charge as much as they could per bedroom, and then walk away. Not only did they create welfare support, but they created areas in between the houses to have events and not just parties, but normally opportunities for free food for people to meet, but not just students to meet. Students meeting was great, but the community to meet. And I just thought that was such a compelling argument that it was great for our students and great for the community, which in that particular part of uh Hull, again, is extremely important. You've got a lot of people who live literally on the campus uh boundary who've never been to a or that university or any university, who don't feel they belong walking five yards across into that environment. That has to be broken down, and because Keckskill were keen to do that, it was a bit of a very, very easy decision to move the uh terraced houses to them.
SPEAKER_02:I think the success of Keckskill uh is a bit of a measure of where the sector is now at. I think PBSA in particular is a very mature sector in the UK, and I think therefore it attracts people looking for that long-term stable return profile. And I think the days of the sort of one, two-year hold and then flip, I think that's gone. And I think that people who bought during COVID or slightly post-COVID will really feel the effects of that when their return returns aren't quite as good as they were expecting. And I think what PBSA now needs and now has coming into the market is that long-term reliable capital where you're not because I I think that to cut it short, I think PBSA got quite greedy over the um in the post-COVID boom, and I think it's totally destabilized a lot of markets, and everybody is now very hungover from some of that. It doesn't mean the party's over in PBSA, it just means that there is definitely a hangover. We're now in the stage where long-term sustainable capital wants to come in, invest in it, and think, yeah, we can get three to five percent rental increase year on year, and that's enough for us. Hopefully, more like three percent. But I think the days of 23% increases in Glasgow or any other city hopefully are behind us.
SPEAKER_03:I think that the we're talking a lot here about the need for a change because the demand is changing, the demographics is changing. So, what we're really talking about is a bit more flexibility. Um, and that for me, I feel like refurbishing properties has to be the way forward. Everyone keeps saying that they can't afford to build affordable, and it's like I think we all accept accept that, but there's so many properties out there, and it but it might not be the traditional model. You know, if you're converting an old office building or um, I don't know, an old hotel or an old pub or something, that the rooms aren't going to be neat, you know, 11, 12, 13 square meter rooms that can all have an ensuite and they can all be off a corridor and you know can all have the social spaces. But I think that's an amazing opportunity, you know, to actually not everything has to be ensuite, you know. We're we're massive advocates of that. You can have quirky rooms, you can have different shaped rooms, you can do lots of different things if you're kind of looking outside of that traditional model, and I guess also with flexibility, we've just been talking about commuting students. Um, I guess in our experiences, is any of your organizations or people that you're working with looking at a kind of hybrid accommodation option for commuting students that might not need that 43-week or 51-week? Is there evidence? Are you you guys doing anything like that at Birmingham, Timothy?
SPEAKER_01:No, we're we're not. Um, and I think partly because with our existing stock, we've been fortunate to have reasonably strong student recruitment for the last couple of years, so we don't have buildings that we're looking at and thinking, you know, do we need to repurpose this or do we need to think differently? That's not to say that that's not how it's gonna be in the future, we may have to think about that. Um I I also would question the fundamentals of how that would work from a financial perspective, and that's gonna be really difficult because you know there's an argument to say this is about student experience and we should be doing it, and it doesn't have to generate you know surplus for the university to make it work. But equally, if we're gonna be spending uh university capital on creating some kind of product for those students, then there will need to be some kind of understanding of what that benefit is and absolute clarity of the benefits because there are so many calls on our capital. You know, we are not probably in the top five of priorities for university spending um in terms of capital. And that's really difficult for us because you know our core model we generate income for the university, it's a good return. Um but getting capital is really difficult. So we haven't explored that because we haven't had to, but this I I would say it's definitely not off the table, and I think there's probably a need for something different.
SPEAKER_04:I think it's um it it feels that conversation we were having about kind of the campus and not pitting kind of residential students against commuting students is actually that campus is a vibrant place to be if you're a commuting student, and really if you're a commuting student, you should be there from nine till eight every day or later and then going home, and then that then affords actually a flexible product. So actually, you can stay on campus two days a week and still be a commuting student and still get part of that. But as you say, you've got to make fundamentals work to make that work. But I mean, I've said time and time again, we're in a market where it's ripe for innovation, it's ripe for change, and everything is telling us that something needs to change, whether it's how people are studying, how people are getting to studying, the demographics of students, that the the finances between funding it, it's kind of actually all of that is building to actually let's not just keep thinking student accommodation has to be this and solely this. There is another way, and we need to sit and find that. I think.
SPEAKER_01:I think that the challenge for us is that in our sort of hyper-local market and the market isn't difficult enough for those changes to be forced upon us. What a luxury, as well. Well, yeah, and and and you know, I'm not sitting there gloating because I know tough times could could be round the corner, it's it's gonna be really difficult. But I what I think all campuses could do better is provide that overall space for commuter students to be. So if you're coming onto campus, we want them to be there from nine in the morning until uh early evening. You know, they might want to go to the gym. Where do they put their bag when they're going to lecture? Where can they sit in the study and not feel obliged? They've got to buy a coffee or buy lunch because the reasons they're choosing to commute are probably based on budget. Um they can't afford the student conversation. So let's not make them come to campus and spend a load of money in a different way. Um and that's all really difficult to get right. Um, but I think the Nash University is going to do better on that.
SPEAKER_05:I I'm just wondering, Tim, if if the university has looked at this against the the losses where you know you know that commuter students are more likely to drop out. I wonder if it's been looked at in the round in terms of retention but also attracting more commuter students.
SPEAKER_01:I don't know the answer to that, um, but I suspect there's probably some quite useful data in there that would support it.
SPEAKER_03:Dean and I did a piece of work with a university um earlier this year, and they have a commuter student lounge with a kitchen in it. So they've got a fridge, they've got a microwave, so to your point, and they can make their they can bring their pet lunch or you know their microwave meal, and they don't have to bring food in all the time. It was a bit like a like a common room, really, and it was it was you know earmarked for for them with lockers in as well. Um, it's a very small university in London that was doing that, and we were like really, really pleased to see that. So it's that kind of sort of you know, co-din-whist. And it's not a huge amount of space, it's not that's not a cost, really. It was I don't know what it was before, but it was you know little more than an unused room the side of this, you know, size of this studio, really.
SPEAKER_04:So that's where I was going down, though, is that actually like a co-working space is you just go and hire a space where you can work for the day. But actually, if you've got void rooms, you could just hire a room for a couple of hours. And if you want to go and have a sleep, if you want to go and get some private study for a couple of hours. Have a shower. Yeah, it's kind of actually you've got a little home from home that you just hire for a few hours.
SPEAKER_00:I think this sector has been uh pretty innovative already, and it needs to continue to be so. And we do, it's difficult, isn't it, especially when you've got an hour to talk about it that we talk about the sector as one, but it the the offering is does vary considerably. So I worked in two Russell Group universities, one post-92 and one red brick, and the post-92 and the red brick were very innovative about thinking about how to support community students because they needed to. And the Russell Group hasn't needed to as much. But we've been um approached by Russell Group University in the last month and asked if we, because they don't have the experience of doing that. So, Tim, I'm very happy to talk to you after this after this podcast, um, can we help them deliver that type of flexible solution that they see that they will require in the future, not as an alternative to their current uh student market, but as an addition. That's really quite exciting, I think.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, I think we we've said before in the podcast that okay, it's it's been a bit of a challenging year in student accommodation, and as we heard at the conference yesterday, you know, occupancy can be looking at around 85%, but that means there's void rooms, and that means do something, play with them, try different things out. And I was just thinking actually that you know, we talk quite a lot about before, you know, PBSA communal spaces are pretty unused during the day, you know, the study spaces, the cinema rooms and stuff. So what if PBSA opened it up to day visitors? Um, you know, and I know that universities have all of the you know have the libraries and all the other spaces, but actually, you know, why can't they just come during the daytime commuting students and you know you're marketing your wares basically at the same time?
SPEAKER_02:I think we need to make the any PBSA asset sticky now. You have to show you you're creating that community, whether that be you know via uh opening it up to commuter students or showing that flexibility. It was um uh Jermaine Brown from Arc L Co-Living who said yesterday on our panel, we need to focus on activation, and I think that's it. We don't necessarily need that many podcast booths, ironically, uh in PBSA or karaoke booths or cinema rooms necessarily. We need reasonably flexible spaces that we can do kind of what we want with that focus on activation, bringing people in, whether it be, you know, do you need a smaller gym and then you just get a PT in once a week or twice a week to come and do things. I think that curating that community is going to be absolutely pivotal for PBSA to invite people in, also university halls to be inviting people in, and the campuses too. I I think that you know that's a really innovative approach to be thinking how do we attract commuter students? It's by offering them if facilities to stay and work. I'm just genuinely thinking about my time at university, we just had a library, that was it, and then you went back to your room. I don't really think they thought about commuter students at Loughborough, to be honest with you.
SPEAKER_00:But but yeah, I think that's you know, you've got the facilities that are available at Loughborough now. Oh yeah. Yeah, the universities have got some of the very best facilities and unities in the country, bar none, and they have poor utilisation rates and they want to open them up. I was talking to another university on Monday about a camp a day campus pass.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, well, I was just thinking that, Stephen. The the um universities are always have an open door policy. I mean, Deanny and I we do you know a lot of market research and we you know wander randomly around cities, but we always know if we need somewhere warm to get a coffee and to plug our laptop in, we can go to a university campus, but the same can't be said for PBSA and it's it's secure, the doors are shut a lot. It feels like, and and we always say this when we do ourselves a marketing training, they're not very welcome spaces actually. It takes ages to try and work out how to use the door.
SPEAKER_00:You need to come to Knicks can't do it.
SPEAKER_03:We do, but it's kind of like actually, why can't PBSA open the spaces up to the community to the wider you know audience? And you know, but it can be commercialised. You can make you know, people are spending money in co-working spaces. Why wouldn't they spend money in a student accommodation? It's all secure for bentry, they can't get to the bedrooms.
SPEAKER_04:That's enough of the sector going around the country, probably needing to use workspace. Yeah, they would.
SPEAKER_02:I think that we one of the best examples I've seen of that kind of thing is um called the sugar cube in Sheffield. I don't know if anyone's been there, but the co-working space and cafe downstairs does a roaring trade. It's not even in the most incredible location, it's just that it's it attracts people in, it brings people down from their from their rooms as well because they're all sort of studio rooms, and I think that we need to get much better at. It's a case of you know active street frontage.
SPEAKER_03:Exactly.
SPEAKER_02:Active street front is uh front frontage. I think there needs to be a focus on certain concessions or franchises or getting you know partners in to run cafes and things like that. But equally, if you want to just do it yourself, just have an inviting space, you know.
SPEAKER_00:There's definitely a video series opportunity of of visiting universities around this country and seeing what they have, because again, the vast majority of the country are unaware, and it's absolutely incredible. Yeah, so we'll be looking for sponsors for that.
SPEAKER_03:But does this go back to kind of what we were saying um kind of before about sort of attitudes to students as as well, is actually if we could break down those barriers and, like you said, even more of those people be exposed to universities and students, and also from a planning permission point of view, you know, people in areas NIMBY's will automatically object to student accommodation because they still think that students are these party animals and they're gonna you know trash everything and there's gonna be you know traffic cones everywhere and shopping trolleys. Um, and I'm sure that probably still happens to a lesser extent. I don't think you know, I don't think they're all angels, but if we break down those barriers in those cities, then surely it will all help. There shouldn't be this kind of locked campus kind of situation in the PBSA. Nobody knows what PBSA is. So, and if the room if the doors are shut all the time, in a city are people like, oh, what's what's going on there? This is all very mysterious. We don't want it to be like that.
SPEAKER_00:Students are fantastic volunteers. Yeah, yeah, we we do, it's very easy to generalize, isn't it? But the volunteering hours that students put in in their community uh will be accept more than any other group of people, and the examples of those students working with elderly people or people who required assisted living is far greater than I'd I would imagine any other group. But the good news stories, to Tim's earlier point, struggle to get out there in a world of such information.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. You you say that you and Dee Dee go around campuses and feel that's a welcome place that you can go into, but that's probably because of your professional experience in doing that. I'm not sure wider communities feel comfortable walking onto campuses. You know, we've got a beautiful red brick campus in in Birmingham, a bit clocked out, sort of you know, imposes on the local area. I'm not sure the local people of Birmingham who aren't who maybe didn't go to the university would would consider going onto that campus naturally. And we do try and reach out, we do events, activities, that kind of thing, but you have to work quite hard at that. And I think it's really important to change if we can get them to do onto campuses to spend more time around students, you know, then we can sort of sell the message of what our students do contribute to our cities.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, there's a lot of people who just don't feel comfortable, they they don't feel welcome, they don't feel that they're entitled to go to a university. So you know before I worked in PBSA, um I did quite a lot of work on widening access, and and one of the things we did was bringing often it was um people with with young kids um who've never ever been to a university and we're we're just terrified of it. And and some of the work that we do, it was just a sort of a gentle introduction. People need to feel that they are allowed to to be there, that they won't be mocked for their for what they don't know and and the way they speak and the way they are, and and you know that's a a big piece of work, but it's it's I think it's more in in this political climate, it is more important than ever.
SPEAKER_03:So we really I guess a call to action from this this podcast is um increasing that positive PR around young people and students, um, and that really it's it's the right place for young people to to continue to to go. It's not a Partying, it's not about being drunk. You know, and it's got to be about the you know the local economy as well. Because I was just thinking, as a commuter student, if a university significantly increased their commuting students versus their residential students, that would impact the local economy quite significantly. I had a very similar background to use, even I was a commuting student. I went, I did my lectures, I came home again. I spent very little money, if any, in the local area at all. Um, most of my money went on petrol driving to and from you know the campus. But you know, again, they're not staying longer for the day. They're probably not you, you know, spent using the FB services on campus. They're not then going to the local nightclubs and the bars and everything. So we've got to kind of really think about how that impacts a local city and a local economy as you know, as well. Um, and really the higher education and student accommodation sectors need to kind of come together.
SPEAKER_00:Civic planning as well. And again, I was uh in Leeds when I think there was a fabulous example through the the 90s and the 2000s, where the the council and the planning department were very long-sighted and very supportive of what the universities were doing. I think there's a point that I'd like to raise where, because I've been involved in the sector for so long, in 1992, when I started through to the early 2000s, it was a very positive media to have higher education, and a lot of support, Tony Blair, and governments of all political persuasions. And then it changed dramatically with the introduction of tuition fees, the introduction of the office for students, and the media became aggressively negative about higher education. And if you're in it, it was really obvious to see. And I've spent a lot of time with uh Universities UK, British Universities Finance Directors Group, talking about what we can do to get the good messages out there, and again, they they produce an awful lot. Um but there's something about actually working closely with the media to get these points across, which is inc it's something that we all need to do, but the civic planners need we need to be working ever more closely with those councils around the importance of this for exactly the economic reasons, but many others too, of why it's great for the city.
SPEAKER_05:But I think that grassroots work reaching out to local communities is so important, and I think that's what Kex Hill does really good, really well and always has done. Thank you, and I agree.
SPEAKER_04:And just thinking about that and thinking about our time and how much time we've got left, like looking forward, there's lots that we can do, lots we should be doing. Um, so what would you like to see in student accommodation sector in 2026?
SPEAKER_06:No, this is a difficult question.
SPEAKER_00:I think the flexibility, I think you're everything we've just said, um, and I think uh Dan's point is spot on around the long-term funding of PBSA or student accommodation and and the fact you have to look at that as a long-term return. You can't look at it as a short-term return. It's going to be peaks and troughs, as you've said, and you've got to think about it to. I think we are being innovative. We need to be more innovative, we need to work in partnership with everyone who's involved. But the flexibility of providing those those rooms and facilities in a way that's different. Durham University, 70 student accommodation rooms in the castle, that's a thousand years old. Yeah. Um, what an experience that would be. And they're not your typical student accommodation room. There are lots of examples. It's sometimes it's very difficult to refurbish a building, sometimes it's a lot easier and makes it affordable. But that flexibility of provision and definitely flexibility of the length of stay. So, by way of example, if you wanted to get a reasonable bedroom in Airbnb in Hull, it's still going to cost you£50 minimum and more likely nearer£100.
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:We charge our cheap our best value room in Hull is£99 a week. So we can make that work one or two days a week. And we've got to think about how we try and do that more broadly.
SPEAKER_01:So if if if we're going into a period of more long-term planning and stability, do you think there's any chance that we might and there's a risk here we'll set it down off on this Hobby Horse talking about it? Is there any chance that perhaps you know, because if we talk about affordability and value for money, we need to price our products properly. Uh-huh. Because at the moment I don't understand how a student can know what anything is worth in student accommodation, particularly in the private PBSA, because of all the discounts, incentives, cashbacks. If we don't know what it's worth, how can a student and we're going to get into this sort of you know DFS sale territory, aren't we, where you know if the sale never ends, you keep on waiting to buy when you when it's when when you think you get the best value, and and you no one pays full price ever.
SPEAKER_03:I feel like you deserve a round of applause for that, you know. Yeah, spot on. Shall we give him a round of applause? Yeah, should we give that a lot of people?
SPEAKER_00:You're absolutely right, but that that position is in inevitable when you've got market forces created in higher education and therefore PBSAs, but it's not sustainable. So there will be losers. And uh again, another hat I wear is the chairman of Unipol, and we're very conscious about the effect of the renters' rights bill and this this discounting in certain cities. There will be organizations who sell out of student accommodation or get out of the buildings, or those buildings will not be used for student accommodation. That is the conclusion of what's happening at the moment, and then the market will st stabilize again. I'm not sure what else can happen in the meantime. But I think for those who are going to be successful, you you and you know, I would say this you put your stool out there, you say that's what we're offering, that's why it costs this, do you want it or not? And we make it as attractive as possible.
SPEAKER_04:But is it in TechScale have you ever had to use discounting incentives?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, absolutely. But it we are in eight different locations, and in certain locations you've got to follow the market. Nottingham. And you've got to follow the market, um, otherwise you're not competitive. We have to find a business strategy, a core that will get you through that.
SPEAKER_02:Nottingham's taken a lot of people by surprise. Obviously, that's one of the places we're talking about with the cashbacks. I think it you know, if you're if you're mid-market and you're doing cashbacks, you've got your pricing wrong. But there are places where you just can't foresee what's going to happen in a market. And Nottingham was one of those. There's a few others too. But I am seeing more cashbacks from some of the bigger operators straight out of the doors. And that that for me is is a sign that you've got your pricing wrong, you're talking to your investors wrong, and you've got to make sure that you recalibrate completely. So, all of the advice we've had to our clients at Resi Consultancy, we've just said start low if you need to dynamically price and work your way up. And if you are getting to the point where you are dropping your rents, you have just totally got your pricing wrong from the get-go. And I think that has happened more and more. We need to cancel the cashbacks. It is totally screwing up so many different markets, and I think it's causing desperation. It's showing that it's showing PVSA in such a bad light because it just shows a bit of greed. Like I said, yes, there's exceptions where it's you get caught out. And and I understand that people want to fill that last sort of one, two percent occupancy, but at what price? Pissing off the rest of your existing um uh uh residents? That is the real problem that we have. Unless you are offering cash back to rebookers as an incentive, you have got your pricing wrong.
SPEAKER_03:Go back to Deanny's question about 2026. Do you think that will change in 2026, Dan?
SPEAKER_02:Absolutely not. Uh I I think so, I think the era that we're moving into is an era of affordability, but it has to be affordability with value. It can't just be, hey, here's our cheap rooms. I noticed you correct yourself and say it's not the cheapest room, it's a good value room. And I think that's something that we we all need to focus on as a sector, that value that we're bringing, and the value that the entire sector brings, to yes, there are commuter students who will need to commute for sure, but there are commuter students who commute because they cannot afford university, they cannot afford to live in student accommodation. We have to be able to entice them back with good value rooms and make sure that we're able to showcase this. So we are trying to showcase that with that recalibration with the the PBSA sector has had to go through, which has been quite painful and still will be painful, that we need to recalibrate, we need to focus on affordability, and I think flexibility will also come through that too.
SPEAKER_03:I think you hit the nail on the head there, just going back to what Tim said about the pricing and the incentives. I think that blocks out the value. Like we do marketing audits, and oh my god, there was one that we looked at the other day, and I think we counted seven different incentives. We couldn't get beyond the flashes and the pop-ups and the you know, banners and everything to even find out what the value of the property was. And you know, that's and I'm not blaming marketeers for that because we've been in-house, we know the pressure that you've got investors and you've got MDs and you've got CEOs going, just tell them this and just drop this and just add this banner. Um, you know, and I don't know, we probably were senior enough and um annoying enough that that we would push back on those messages, but you don't see that all the time in the sector that somebody's going, no, yeah, we are not doing that. That is not right for the student. We want to talk about all the value that we're adding to the residential experience, not the banners and the discounts and the incentives.
SPEAKER_04:But is that looking to the future and where we're talking about long-term capital? Actually, you get more of a buy-in for that long-term reputation and that long-term impact. And I think that's so much of the problem with the sector as being is like, I just care about this year. Oh, yeah. So I don't care. Short-termism, yeah.
SPEAKER_02:It's the same with our politics. Justine Green said it yesterday, the ex um uh housing minister um at Property Week, which was actually a really good keynote. But um, you know, it's that short-termism and it it breeds laziness and complacency, I think. And that's what we're you know, we need to readjust this the whole sector has matured, focused on that long term. So hopefully that is a message that will come through to investors in particular. The operators know it, but some of these investors have drunk the Kool-Aid from a lot of the agents who are saying buy and build wherever the hell you want, and there's a look, there's gonna be loads of students there, in particular Chinese students who are gonna pay a pretty penny for their room. And that actually isn't happening anymore. So we've got to make sure that we're creating that viable sector by being realistic, and I think that's the term that I've taken from yesterday. It's positive realism. You know, I'm not saying I'm bearish about the market, I'm just realistic and pragmatic. I felt that that came through on stage and across the board, and I think that's what's happening within the sector now.
SPEAKER_00:There's a bit of delay, isn't there, in investors, um, which surprised me over the years as a chief financial officer. Certain banks, certain investors are seeing the market trend, yeah. And the the number of student accommodation bills will reduce, and investors will start thinking, well, there isn't the return here. That's there's been this huge jump into student accommodation development because where else are we going to put their money? There's not enough else going on in the country, and we need to question that. But there will be a drop-off, and this is a panic at the moment, is it that it is, and that will take some time to come out, but it will, and then you we'll be hopefully left with those who have the attitude that Dan's just described. Well, more of those than we have at the moment.
SPEAKER_03:Jenny, what what what will twenty six I was gonna say, what will 2026 bring for you, but I think uh we don't know that, you know. What would you like to see from the sector in 2026?
SPEAKER_05:I think there's an opportunity just to go back to basics because it has been, it's it's been the year that the wave crashed, you know. A lot of us have been tracking trends and looking at the future, and this might happen, this this might happen, that might happen. It just went down this year, didn't it? Um so um, yeah, it I I think a lot of what we've been talking about is what do what do students need, what do students want, what what do universities need, what are some of the big things within the sector that we can lean into? The the distrust of universities, which is kind of threatening their existence potentially. Um and there's I think there's a lot to go on there. And and I think everyone in this room is is really bought into that, but it would be great to see that across the sector.
SPEAKER_02:I completely agree. I think that's um uh we've got anyone else to wrap up. I think that's pretty much it.
SPEAKER_03:Anything else to add to add, Tim, about 2026?
SPEAKER_01:I don't think so. Uh I mean it's gonna be a difficult year for higher education. Um we've we're already seeing I think the recent uh suggestions where over half are gonna be in deficit this year. Um that will only bring one thing, and that is you know reduction in headcounts. And that's gonna be really, really difficult because universities have have been through a difficult last 12 months and to go through that again, all the while trying to make this case that we've been talking about about the value proposition of of higher education is gonna be a huge challenge for us, but we've got to do it, it's worth doing. Um, we definitely need need it to happen as a sector, so that that's gonna be the focus, uh.
SPEAKER_02:Well, on a slightly lighter note, and this is a Christmas special, so um one t-shirt, and Jenny's very very festive way to go, so yeah. Um let's just go around the room.
SPEAKER_01:Favourite Christmas song, Tim, go. I'm gonna lean into being a Midlander, which is the home of Christmas music. Glad Wizard, and yes, I wish it could be Christmas every day.
SPEAKER_03:Okay, so my mine is do they know it's Christmas? And it's not necessarily because I love the song, although it is a great song, I just always get this vision of um Gavin and Stephanie and I just I love watching Gavin and Stacey at Christmas, so it's kind of that's the connotation that that I have.
SPEAKER_02:Jenny.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, so mine is have yourself a Merry Little Christmas because it's a great song, but also it the context of it is it's not a very good year, but you're hoping next year's gonna be better.
SPEAKER_00:For me, it would be Chris Rear, Driving Home Christmas. Um, again, the fact that when we're driving home, we know we've had we've been working very, very hard. I think it'll relate to it, and we know we're gonna have some time off on a rest. I look forward to that.
SPEAKER_04:Oh, that's my son's favourite song. But for me, it's fair to have New York every single time. It's gotta be. I just love it.
SPEAKER_02:Well, you've all stolen the ones that I wanted to actually wanted Chris Rear, but I'm gonna go something slightly rogue, which is uh the mint pie song. If you want to look it up, but it will drive you absolutely crazy. So that thanks very much to Wilbur for that one. I might miss the money. Probably would. Um so that is a wrap uh on HALS2025. Great way to end the year. Um, and thank you very much to Jenny, Timothy, and Stephen for taking time out of your days to join us to make such brilliant contributions. Um Hows will be back in January for season season six. Um, and I think we'll pass 25,000 listeners for this season, which is gonna be exciting. Um so yeah, we hope you'll join us again then. Um if you do spot anything interesting you want us to cover in the new season, please do drop us an email at hello at housepodcast.com, and we'll be sure to include it and watch out for our event at UK Reef coming up in May, and also our new website coming soon. Thank you very much.