Smarter Tech, Higher Rents. Is the Sector Encouraging Commuting Students? Is All-Inclusive Bills a Scam? Why Renting Has a Reputation Problem

This week, we're catching up on the numerous events we've recently attended including; the Sheppard Robson PBSA round table 'How can fresh thinking unlock viability?', the Amber webinar hosted by Urban Living News on all-inclusive energy and the QX Global Group Student Accommodation Insights Evening.

We are also talking about the latest white paper by Utopi; The AI Influence in Real Estate - are we moving to the dark side? Download this report via link in comments.

The questions we cover this week:
- Does investing in AI make rent cheaper or more expensive?
- Are commuting students a commercial opportunity or a risk?
- A plea for positive PR about the value of renting
- Is all-inclusive bills cheaper?

Stay up to date on Housed podcast via the website and LinkedIn page 

Dan Smith is Founder of RESI Consultancy and Co-Founder of Verbaflo.AI.

Sarah Canning and Deenie Lee are Directors and Co-Founders of The Property Marketing Strategists - Elevating Marketing in Property.

Thank you to our season four sponsors:
Mystudenthalls.com -  Reach thousands of students searching every month with 0% commission student accommodation listings.

Utopi - The smart building platform helping real estate owners protect the value of their assets.

Washstation - Leading provider of laundry solutions for Communal and Campus living throughout the UK and Ireland.

Howden  - With a lifetime of expertise, Howden provides tailored insurance, property risk management, and wellbeing solutions for accommodation providers across the UK.

Who this episode is for:

• PBSA and student accommodation professionals
• BTR, co-living and rental operators
• Property developers and investors
• University and higher education leaders
• Anyone working in or around housing policy and shared living

The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the hosts and guests alone and do not necessarily reflect the views of their employers, organisations, clients, or partners. This podcast is for general discussion and informational purposes only. Nothing said should be taken as professional, legal, financial, or investment advice. While we aim to be accurate, we make no guarantees and accept no liability for decisions made based on the content of this podcast. This was a jointly sponsored podcast. 

Transcript

Kickoff, Hosts, And Sponsors

SPEAKER_03 0:00

Hello everybody, and we are back after half time ready for a new episode of How to the Shared Living Podcast, episode seven in season six. We're back again for another week with you the latest news views and insights from the rented shared living sectors. So with you we're in and around the PBSLA, BTL, Co-Living, University Accommodation, HMO, and Rented Later Living Sectors. You are in the right place. I'm Sarah Cumming from the Property Marketing Strategists.

SPEAKER_02 0:26

I'm Dan Smith from Resident Consultancy and Virgo Flow Lane.

SPEAKER_03 0:29

And I'm Dini Lee from the Property Marketing Strategists. So let's hear from our headline sponsor MyStudent Halls.

SPEAKER_01 0:38

Howst is sponsored by Spotlights Boost on mystenthaals.com. Use Spotlight Boost to stand out in search results and drive more leads to your properties.

Events Preview And Sector Pulse

Roundtable: Unlocking Viability

SPEAKER_03 0:50

Thank you so much to Dan and the team from MyStudent Halls, who are our headline sponsor once again. They are such a key part of the student accommodation marketing cycle and are great partners to us at Housed. So make sure you get in touch with MyStudent Halls to advertise all of your student accommodation this year. And a huge thank you to Wash Station, Utopia, and Howden. More from them later on. Now we've got a lot to catch up on. We had a break last week because of half term, but the week before half term was action-packed. So coming up, we'll be reporting back from various different events around the sector and so much more. So first of all, Deanny, I think you were the busiest of the three of us the week before half term. You attended a round table which was entitled How Can Fresh Thinking Unlock Viability? I'm sure it was super interesting because it's literally the conversation that we have most weeks on the podcast. So I think we're really keen to hear, you know, what the attendees at the Shepard Robson and Aud News round table had to say, really. What were the key discussion points, Deanny?

The Commuter Student Dilemma

SPEAKER_04 1:50

Yeah, it was a really great session and a big thank you to Shepard Robson and Aud for inviting me. It was a big round table. We had a lot of people from all around the sectors, from investors, developers, universities, operators, so and architects, obviously. So it was a really good broad mix of people working in both kind of on-campus university accommodation and private PBSA accommodation. And it was obviously a really open discussion about kind of how we can get that fresh thinking in and unlock that viability and make affordability. As you can imagine, the big discussions were around affordability. What can we do? What the challenges are there? There was a really long discussion around commuter students, kept popping up time and time again. And I do worry that there is a risk around community students that it's absolutely right, we should be making it easy for community students to go about their day, engage with the university and make that comfortable. But there is a real risk for accommodation providers and students that if universities go down that route too far, we end up just making it a thing that you commute. And I think that was something that kind of I raised in the session is that we really need to be massively careful around this because we are going to change an approach to how you go and study and ingrain it that actually you don't need to go away and study. And I think aside from the commercial aspects of PBSA, I think that's a real shame for students that they don't have that opportunity.

SPEAKER_03 3:22

Was there any discussion around how to, I guess, compromise? Were there any solutions offered for people that want to commute sometimes, be on campus sometimes, um, or have that flexibility? Absolutely.

SPEAKER_04 3:36

We had a lot of conversations around flexibility, and there is definitely a more open conversation, I think, around that table around flexibility and what the options are around how we can make that happen and that it shouldn't just be fixed structures. Obviously, we also discussed the challenges around that and how you achieve that and still get the right returns and get investors comfortable with what they're going to get. But yes, there was absolutely lots of conversations around opportunities to make flexible accommodation for students. The other discussion that I think was really good for me to hear is that I wasn't the only voice in the room talking about twin rooms. There was lots of people saying actually twin rooms are viable, we really need to reconsider it. We also had the discussion around actually how we make them attractive to people to share. And I think that is where we need to look at privacy, we need to look at interesting models that you still you get a sense of your own place, but you can share. So that was a real shift in conversation because I know Sarah, we've been talking about twin rooms for a number of years, and we just get hit back, or we have been hit back over the years, but it's not possible, it's not viable, it's not what students want. Whereas I think that conversation is beginning to change. Definitely more from the university side, but I think that investors and private operators are starting to think, actually, I need to do something else on this.

Flexibility Models And Investor Risk

SPEAKER_02 4:53

I was just about to say that. It does throw up headaches, twins, of course, you know, the roommate matching and making sure you know there's no operational difficulties off the back of that. I'm starting to see, I know we covered this a little while ago in in one of our probably about five episodes ago, but I'm starting to see a few operators just you know struggling with occupancy in certain locations, think, why don't we just give it a go? And I don't think there is that much to lose to be able to do it. Firstly, you don't necessarily have to commit until relatively late on. It's reasonably easy to pull twins together out of some kind of studio if you're retrofitting, and and I don't think that is a huge issue to sell it off plan and then later on work out if there really is the demand for it, you know, hoping that that late demand isn't what you have to rely on, but you should get an idea of whether the twins, you know, people are actually biting and they're even inquiring about the twins. But yeah, Deanny, do you do you actually think that there are some investors that are starting to think, you know, for any new developments or for any, you know, for retrofitting, that that this is something that would be attractive and and viable? What was the mood in the room?

SPEAKER_04 6:14

The mood in the room, I think, around the investor issues is the the challenge for investors is the unknowns, and this is the problem. And as I always talk about, someone's got to be brave, and no one really wants to be brave, and investors find it difficult to be brave because they need to know, they need to have some confidence something's gonna work. So I think this is still the biggest challenge we've got around innovation is that matching up of an investor that's willing to take a risk on something that's been researched as far as it can, but you've still got to build something and try something and give it a go. And maybe that's where universities have a role to play because they've got more ability to be able to do that. But I think the the view from investors is very much around that there's a lot of unknowns going on in the marketplace at the moment, which makes it difficult to invest, which then impacts affordability, impacts innovation, impacts us progressing going forward, which is where my concern concern is, is that actually that that pushes everyone else to go down the commuter route and make commuters happy, and therefore we make that what's all due to go away and study at university.

Twin Rooms Return To The Table

SPEAKER_02 7:22

And and just back on the commuter students piece, I I know again we've we've talked about this before quite a lot in terms of the facilities on campus that would be great for them, uh, you know, sort of co-working space or whatever that might look like. In terms of the flexibility, did anyone mention anything that wouldn't have an impact on revenue? Because at the moment, the frustration that I have is that I'm trying to push this flexibility model onto certain clients and say, look, it is time to really offer semesters at the very least from the get-go, but maybe start thinking about what that would look like from a commuter student point of view. Do we end up doing, you know, week nights, etc.? How do we how do you make money there? Was there anyone talking about the viability of that flexibility? Because it is a struggle to get that off the ground without a hit to revenue. Um, and and that's that's what I think everyone is concerned about. I think people would offer it because that it's what students want. It's what not everyone, but it's what a lot of students say that they want. So it was there any conversation around how do you stop the revenue leakage but but still offer flexibility?

SPEAKER_03 8:36

Can I just step in just before Deany answers? Because I think there's a caveat probably to what you're saying, Dan, is regarding commuting students, I don't think the admissions departments of universities care. I don't know if that's the right word, or are aware of the commercial implications sometimes on what of the knock-on effects on accommodation, because the admissions department that their job is to fill courses, and whether it's commuting students or whether it's not commuting students, they don't mind. You know, they're filling courses and that's their job to do. So I think without that overall strategic approach from a university, with that level of understanding about that commuting students spend less money on a campus, then I I I I don't I don't know that that at university level is enough of a factor unless someone at the very top is noticing that the increase in commuting students means less students in accommodation.

Universities, Silos, And Occupancy

SPEAKER_02 9:35

Well, that's what I was gonna say. There's a lot of silos there where there's no I've I've seen that before firsthand, where there isn't much joined up thinking between admissions and accommodation and what that means when you have more commuter students. So you're like, yeah, cool, go go for it, fill it, we'll just do postgrads, that's not a problem, and we'll get postgrads from India, for example, when you know that a lot of those students aren't actually going to live on campus. And that is one of the major challenges that then the accommodation has because they're not full. And we know that university accommodation is really suffering right now, not everywhere, but I would say the majority of universities have voids in some way, shape, or form. And it's the VCs, the vice-chancellors at the top, and also you know, those commercial directors that really need to lead that joined up thinking. And I know that some do. There's some brilliant ones out there, brilliant estates directors and um commercial leaders. There are some really good sort of commercial director roles who are kind of bringing that together, but I just don't see that joined up thinking from vice-chancellors, from an overall perspective. It's still operating in silos, it still seems to be that accommodation is very separate. Well, no, it can be a cash cow. You can make really good money if you if you have the right students coming in. And and then you have to think about well, okay, what are we here for? We're here to educate. Well, yes, but you also need to make sure that you're financially viable. And one of the ways of becoming financially viable is by filling your beds. And if you're taking the wrong types of student, and I do believe there are the wrong types of student for certain universities, and that may be, you know, commuting postgrads, it may be local uh commuters, it may be that undergrads are wrong in some way, shape, or form, depending on where they're living. I think you have to think about university as a full ecosystem rather than these little silos that operate. And that's where I think that universities struggle with commercial leadership there, tying it all together, thinking about it from a revenue play in particular, and that is because a lot of these are governed and managed by life academics that do not have business experience. And it's it's it's a really I know I'm really unpopular for saying that. I know that the feedback that I've had from numerous different university leaders is well, hang on, we're not we're not all like that. Some of us are commercial, and those people telling me that they are commercial are typically life academics, and and I'm not saying you cannot learn those skills of business management, and I know that university management is very, very unique, and it's not just about the revenue, but there is and does have to be a real focus on knitting it all together and that overall management from the top. And I just don't think that we're preps for that. Making universities more commercial, one of the ways of doing that is by focusing on what that accommodation can offer and how you can improve the occupancy and the revenue across the board. I'm off my soapbox now.

Sponsor: Utopia And AI White Paper

SPEAKER_04 12:37

In answer to both your questions, I think yes, this was discussed, and I think for that very reason is that because for so long accommodation in universities has just ticked along, done its thing, provided revenue, no one's really thought about it. Now that's not doing its job, then it begins to be a gap, and then it begins to be noticed, and then it changes the conversation. Obviously, universities are complex structures, those conversations take time, but from this session, I think those conversations are happening, they're happening broader, they're happening in deeper. You know, PBSA itself isn't the fastest to innovate and change, and neither are universities, so I think that is going to take time. In answer to the flexibility question, yes, I think there was solutions and there were discussions around how we can help that. But again, that's all coming from universities, and I guess that's the test bed for private operators because I think it needs to be private operators, and maybe that is something where twin rooms does add value. That actually, if you can get a twin room that you're only going to sleep in three or four nights a week, and it's 50% or you know, cheaper than it would be for a room on your own, you know, you can still probably commute home a couple of times a week and still go there. You know, there's lots of different ways that twin rooms might be able to work to that point and that aids that flexibility. So it was a really good discussion. I think it, you know, it's a Chatham House rule, so it was a really open discussion. We were able to discuss a lot of things. I think the other things that we talked about was apprenticeship growth, and I think this is something that is still not talked about enough and considered enough in strategy. And again, we need a voice to lobby government to talk about how we incorporate apprentices as a part of the student cohort, not part of the working professional cohort, which they are seen as now. And I think that needs to shift and change because I think the way that people are going away to study is changing, which means the way they're gonna live is changing, and I think as a sector, we need to move with that and not it's not gonna come back. So we do need to innovate and we need to take risks and be brave, and that's difficult for everyone, but that's the only way probably that we're gonna drive the sector forward and make the sector continue to be a success.

SPEAKER_03 14:48

And I think this is a bit of a cursory tale, really, for BTR and co-living operators and potentially HMO landlords as well, is that rise of the commuter student means that there will be less students feeling connected to that city. So that graduate retention in that city will be impacted as well. You know, and you might start to see the kind of the populations in the suburbs and more rural areas kind of growing, if as it were, because people aren't going to be moving to the big cities. If they're not there for university, it's unlikely, you know, that they're gonna feel that connection and those kind of graduate cities might be impacted as well, which is one of the topics that we're gonna be discussing at UK Reef in one of our panels, um, which I think will be super, super interesting. We're now gonna hear from one of our sponsors.

SPEAKER_04 15:38

This episode is brought to you by Utopia, the smart building platform that helps real estate owners protect the value of their assets.

SPEAKER_02 15:45

From ESG compliance to energy efficiency and resident engagement, utopia turns real-time data into action, making buildings better for people, planet, and profit.

AI: Data, Automation, And Human Touch

SPEAKER_03 15:54

If you're in asset management or operations and care about performance, utopia is your essential partner. Find out more at utopia.co.uk. That's utopi.co.uk. Thank you, utopia. And I thought now was a good moment um to discuss the fantastic white paper that they produced last week and the AI influence in real estate. Are we moving to the dark side? If you haven't already downloaded it from the Utopia website, we highly recommend you do. But in short, it covers some positives for the sector and also some dark sides with the overall message that AI should not replace trust, it should strengthen it. And the winners in shared living will be those who combine data maturity with ethical oversight, use AI to enhance human judgment, not bypass it, and build systems that are transparent, explainable, and genuinely useful, but not without checks and balances, as we discussed. So the the main question really was are we building smarter communities or just accelerating complexity? I'm sure Dan, you've certainly read it and and digested it. Would you recommend it to the audience as a good read?

Investment, Affordability, And Smart Buildings

SPEAKER_02 16:58

Absolutely. Yes. I mean, typically anything Utopia put out there is generally worth reading, in part because of the ridiculous amounts of data points that they have as to how residents and students live. So I I, you know, it's always worth reading whatever white papers or or info they put out there. In terms of the obviously their focus is going to be on sustainability and and building management and and how to pull the best out of that. And they've got Utopia AI, which is a fairly new service for them, but it's it's just automating a lot of the processes and data management, which is uh which is the right approach for them. Now, I think, yeah, you there there was a bit of focus through the report that you have to kind of get your data in order and then you can implement AI. I don't necessarily subscribe to that because AI can sort a lot of the data as it goes. So, and what we find at Verbaflow is that there's a lot of sort of you know, hand wringing and and feet dragging because everyone's like, oh, look, we just need our system sorted, we just need our data sorted, and you know, can we get that all all done and then come back to us in six months, nine months, ten, whatever? And and actually, you can just just start doing a lot of this stuff now. Uh, not just not just from a verbal flow and a communications and CRM perspective, but but from all of the sustainability data, collecting all of that and what you then do with it. Like it this is just about automation. So, yes, get your data lake sorted, make sure that you've got all of that ready to go. But at the same time, if it's not complete, you're you can do these things as you go. Like, I think there's a lot of building the plane while flying that has to happen when it comes to AI in particular. So, you know, and and and the the sort of second point that I I really pulled out was it it leans into what we're saying at Verbaflow, which is there is always going to be a human element to living experiences. Now, you could potentially create an operator from scratch that has zero human interaction at all. Everything is automated from the booking journey and the website and the conversations that are had automatically with an AI agent to the way that your rent is collected, any you know, management issues or maintenance issues as you go. That could all be done now. And you know, same with the Utopia, collecting that data and that sustainability data, automating that, using it for energy management, turning the heating up and down as and when needed. But like I know that's not going to be the direction of travel within the next three years for anyone that's already already doing it. It will be a you know a newcomer to the sector that does that and says, we're going to completely automate everything from the way that you check in and the locks and that security management through to, you know, yeah, how you check out, but how you pay your bills. I think that is coming, but right now I think the focus is going to be primarily on the fact that you still have to have that real human interaction, that connection, and that community. It's just that what a lot of AI is doing is reducing that workload of anyone that is doing manual tasks, administrative tasks, and responding. Like you don't need to respond to anyone to say, yeah, your cancellation policy is X or you can't bring pets or whatever it might be. None of that needs to happen. You shouldn't have your general management or your sales team doing that. They should be focusing on high value tasks. And I think that's where we're moving to. We're people will be focusing on those high value tasks. And what that means for staffing levels remains to be seen, to be completely honest. But what we're seeing is that it's reducing uh seasonal staffing in particular. That's where there's an opportunity for universities, not that many will listen to that. Um, but I I think there's a a real a real sort of opportunity to to streamline the way that we the way that we work. But the operators that win will be the one that ones that understand that balance between automating an instant response and then managing and building a community. I think that's the key focus that that you know that that shone through in the report as well. So yeah.

SPEAKER_03 21:20

I think as we always tell our clients, you can't stand still with digital. It's never done. You can never say I've completed it. Your website, your, you know, your property management system, your booking system, you know, AI, all of this stuff needs to constantly be invested in and constantly evolve. Um, so there's no point just waiting for the perfect moment. There will never be a perfect moment.

SPEAKER_04 21:44

I loved reading this report, and it ironically felt still very futuristic in that actually all these wonderful things that we can do to the building around kind of making sure that we can be proactive about finding faults in the building and fixing those faults. And not waiting to things go wrong. And this is all available and accessible now, but it still felt like the future. So that's telling me something about how slow we are to actually implement these things. I think the big question I had after kind of digesting it was very much around the investment in this and actually how far is real estate willing to go in an investment in AI? And going down that investment, what does that do to affordability? And actually, if we make these super smart buildings that can tell us exactly what's going on in the building at any given time and we can fix it, is that going to make rent cheaper or is that going to make make rent more expensive? And these are the the big questions that I've got is that I mean, I I've been arguing about investing in technology way before AI was even the word on the street, and we don't really invest in technology. So when is this going to happen? And I think the report did say that 88% of OGA's investors are piloting AI, but only 5% have achieved their AI goals, which shows that people are willing to get on the bandwagon, but are they really willing to actually full scale look at their building, look at AI and make it happen? And are they going to do that in a way that's about making the returns better in a sense that I can charge more rent, or actually I'm making it more efficient so that actually I can make affordable accommodation?

SPEAKER_02 23:27

Exactly that. So that's that's it's such a valid point. And I think this is the evolution of AI. Now, there are there is loads of things that you could be doing as an investor, trialing AI and as and as an operator, a supplier, as there's a huge amount more to it. But you know, from from my experience, from what we've seen, is that it started off the way that we were selling this in was you know, hey, we've got AI. We know you all ask you're all asking about it. This is what it looks like for sales, marketing, ops, and and running your property.

QX Event: PR, Policy, And Demand

SPEAKER_03 23:58

We are going to hear from one of our sponsors.

SPEAKER_00 24:00

Washstation proudly sponsored this episode of Housed. We provide best-in-class laundry solutions that complement your buildings. Washstation. Smart, green, clean.

Value Narratives And Positive Realism

SPEAKER_03 24:11

Wash Station is a leader in managed laundry services. It uses smart technology to deliver reliable, efficient laundry solutions that put customers first. Thank you so much for sponsoring the podcast. It feels like quite a long time ago, but I wanted to just say a few words about the QX event that was the week before last that was sponsored by PBSA News, Yadi and Prefect Controls at the Shard. Um they I really like the events that the team there put on. It's an evening event which doesn't impact your day. There is some networking, but also a really great panel discussion. And this time they changed up the format a little bit and had a keynote speaker to open proceedings. And it was a pretty special one. It was Nicholas Hillman, OBE, um, with a frank and open reality check covering student loans, apprenticeships, commuter students, and the need for adaptability. It was a no-holds barred speech, as you would expect from from Nicholas Hillman. And then the panel was made up of um Zay Jan Yang from East or Far East Orchard Limited, uh, Rachel Miller from UPP, Brian Welsh from Opry Solutions, and Jamie Harris from Harris Associates. And it was moderated by Philip Hillman. It covered a lot of things. One thing that I found quite quite interesting is something that we've talked about before, is the need for positive PR about the student experience. And I feel like all of our audience can contribute to this in some way, shape, or form. There's so much negativity, whether it's about the cost of accommodation or about student loans or about affordability. And you know, most of our audience here are in the the kind of a great opportunity where they are they have residents within their circle, and there's some really, really great stories that I think that they should be getting on with their media communications PR teams to get out there. So that was that was one thing which I completely agree on, and bearing in mind everything that we talked about in the first segment about commuter students and viability and affordability, that feels even more relevant to talk about now. The finance profiles of investors are changing and diversifying risk, but investment isn't all coming to the UK anymore. It's it's uh we shouldn't be arrogant enough, it's not a given that it is the kind of the you know the hub of all investment into the shared rented living sectors. Commuting was was discussed again. Renters' rights act was discussed, but I think I think I would argue that this is the case as well. That I'm not sure that that the students this year uh are even going to notice the Renters Rights Act policy changes. Um, it might just be that it's a a T and C in their rental agreement, and we all know probably that they're not reading the existing rental agreement. So why would they be reading rental agreements unless it's pointed out to them? Obviously, that's a little bit different in HMOs, they they need to, but actually the landlords and the letting agents need to point certain things out. So it's it it might not be the big, the big thing that everybody expected it to be. And I think one thing that I also agree with is PBSA has failed to create an alternative to HMOs. So if there is any fallout from the Renters Rights Act, it won't necessarily convert into a positive outcome for PBSA. Students aren't automatically going to suddenly live in PBSA when the product and the price is completely different to HMOs. And really the the kind of the lasting, I guess no, maybe not a positive one, but a reality is that last year maybe took people by surprise in how hard, and particularly the PBSA sector was. But did that kind of send shockwaves and solidify the need to work harder this year for bookings so not to be caught out again? I know, Dan, that there's some data that you want to talk about, but I think we're gonna have to push that into next week, but let's come back to that situation is you know, let's as a sector not be surprised again. So yeah, thank you to QX for in inviting me. Hopefully, Deanny and Dan will get the opportunity to go to one of those events um in the near future as well. You know, really, really great event and lots of great insight as you've heard.

SPEAKER_02 28:26

Yeah, I I've I've been to one of those events before, but quite a long time ago, and I did get major FOMO from you know all of the uh all of the texts coming through. So one one interesting thing that I've seen over the course of the last week or two is so Nicholas Hillman, obviously founder of of Higher Education Policy and uh Policy Institute. I saw an LBC news clip the other day where it called him the architect of student loans, as a having been a Tory advisor. Um make of make of that what you will. Was there was there much mention about the student loans crisis or anything like that, Sarah?

SPEAKER_03 29:01

There well, there was actually, and it came from Nick Hillman, who um who kind of basically said it's not it's not as bad as the press is making out, which I think comes back to what I was saying about positive PR. And really, like we said in in I think the week before last is that it's a very specific cohort of students. I'm not saying that that the the plan two is is a right or or a wrong thing, but I think he was sort of saying it's kind of a cycle really of kind of negative press about students and universities that that come around, you know, again and again. And that's kind of I think why the panel responded in the way that they did about we we can't control that, but we we have it's in our gift, it's in our control to turn some of these stories around, um, you know, and you know, that that there is, and and again about commute commuting students. I don't really think anybody is giving anyone a reason to believe that living on campus or in your university city is an amazing experience. And I don't think I've seen a story like that for years. It's actually there is one lovely story that I saw, which I think came from a parto over Valentine's Day, um, where it was a love story of students that had met in their residence that have ended up getting married kind of years later because of that kind of and they came from two different parts of the world, they happened to converge together, and those kind of stories are lovely. I'm not saying that it all has to be, you know, a romantic drama, but you know, there are lots of great outcomes from people that live at university.

Sponsor: Howden Insurance

Inclusive Bills Debate Heats Up

SPEAKER_02 30:35

Perfect. Well done, Tara. That's um that's a great PR story, and and I do think that I think we need to be positive, but we need to be realistic. It's uh like I said at the start of the year, positive realism is the phrase that I am taking into this year, and I think that's because every operator found last year tougher than they had done previously, every single one, like that, you know, and that shows in the Stu rents data in the the occupancy dropping by about six percent on average for PBSA operators, and the general feedback that we all get day to day doing our jobs as as consultants and prop tech salespeople. And I would like to, and I think it also comes back to the agents as well. I think the agents really found last year tough. There was a bit of movement there, but there's so little development that you know it is tricky to get schemes off the ground. The agents are uh finding it quite tough. They've had pretty big share price drops relatively recently as well, but they haven't this year. I've not seen it remotely as much, you know, talking up the market just to get properties off the ground or just to get deals done. And you know, I I do think this is positive realism coming through into the way that we operate on a day-to-day level, the way that we talk about the markets. No one, no even, not even agents are sitting there saying, Oh, yeah, yeah, buy and build in Nottingham because it's the perfect place to fill, and you'll get to 100% occupancy and hit all your revenue targets. There is much more realism in the market, and this is where it's down to operators to really say, Yeah, look, let's absolutely nail this, let's make sure that we have every single property running full tilt, getting it to as close to 100% as we can. I always prefer occupancy over revenue, and and I think that is where the best operators will will be able to stand out and be able to offer that positive news story. So, yeah, I I do think there is going to be more positive uh realism this year, and it's good to see that coming through in the in the QX event as well.

SPEAKER_04 32:35

But I do think to Sarah's point is that we still need to work together as a sector and talk about these stories, talk about these positives. It's not going to change with single lone voices, it needs to be, and I think we need to shout it loud because I think it is a terrible state of affairs if we have whole generations that don't get that step into independence to go away and study because that's the first point that you go and do that, and we're we're very close to that just being the norm, and that's what people are doing, and the only way that's gonna change is if we work together and change that conversation and and solve the affordability issue. It's not gonna just be, you know, people aren't gonna actually get money just by us saying you should go, but we do need to change it, and it shouldn't be the reserve of the elite and the affulent few that parents can support them to do it.

Metering, Sustainability, And Future-Proofing

SPEAKER_02 33:26

Well, this is all about the whole thing, it's just about value, it's not just about affordability. Like, we're not just saying, oh, we need those disadvantaged students to be able to go to university and and everyone should be able to get a room for under 100 quid a week or whatever it might be. Like this is about value. Are you getting value from going to university? Well, given the media coverage and the state of affairs, right now, uh yeah, I think a lot of people would question that. Totally understand why. What's the most sensationalist way of approaching it? It's to say no one's getting value for money from university, and then the same from an accommodation standpoint. How do you make you know, how do you show value in a room in London that is£700 a week? I mean, yeah, a certain level would probably see that as good value. Like if you are very affluent, like you said, Sarah, you would see that as as value. I don't know,£700 a week, I'm not sure. But I I think it's all about perspective, it's all subjective in terms of the value overall. We have to find that balance, and I find this tricky as well because you know we're the ones talking about this, we're you know, flag bearers for PBSA, for higher education, um, and for the other sectors too. And I think that all too often it is easier to talk about the challenges and the issues. I think that we probably need to find that balance, and I in particular need to find that balance with talking about the challenges, but also then offering those solutions. I think that and the difficulty is that those solutions seem to be in the sort of too hard bucket right now for a lot of people to kind of deal with. From a university value perspective, a university is dealing with AI and the graduate outcomes, the student loans crisis for anyone on plan two, and you know, how expensive that is as a long-term graduate tax that's dragging people down and might then have an impact on the rental sector. And then, you know, the viability and affordability and value within student housing and what that looks like. It's just finding that balance. That's something we have to get better at.

SPEAKER_03 35:32

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SPEAKER_02 35:52

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SPEAKER_04 35:58

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SPEAKER_03 36:06

So thank you very much for Howden Insurance for coming on board as one of our sponsors. They are fundamental in the life cycle of providing insurance to student accommodation across the UK. So make sure you get in touch with them with all of your insurance needs. Now, our last segment of today is another event that Deanny was involved in that I watched avidly. It was a roundtable webinar hosted by Urban Living News on inclusive or not inclusive bills. Um Deanny was a panellist. It was a lively discussion. I think George Sell bless him struggled to moderate it and certainly struggled to finish on time because all the panelists had so much to say. Deene, you I think it was clear that you really enjoyed that conversation. It's obviously something that we've talked about before on the on the podcast. So I think you were a perfect person to add value to that conversation. How did you kind of find those conversations the to and and again the for and against argument of all inclusive bills? What was the outcome, would you say?

SPEAKER_04 37:06

It was I did enjoy the conversation, and and it is one of my favourite topics because I think it is something that we don't talk enough about, we don't understand enough about. And I think there's a general view that all inclusive means it's cheaper for people, and I'm not entirely convinced that that's the case. And I think this is where we where everything we've discussed today is about we've got these massive challenges, and we need to try and do things differently, and to keep going down the route of all inclusive is better for the student. I I can't buy that argument, and and it was great to have Kirsty from WoW on the session, and then she obviously bought that kind of all the investment in students research and data around kind of what students want around it. But I still think the fundamental thing is if it's going to be cheaper to live and pay bills as you go, that's the way we should be going. And I don't think we come to conclusions you say, Sarah, I think we run out of time, I think we could have spoken about a long time. But I think walking away from that discussion, I just I think I said it on the podcast on the session, is that we're still thinking and operating for a world that we're no longer in. We're in a world where we do have an affordability crisis, we do have a place where young people, not just students, young people are finding it difficult to rent their first home to move out of home. Yeah, it's wonderful to have all-inclusive bills, but that's not the world we're living in. And we're living in a world where, and I know that sustainability has shifted a lot since we've had a change of leadership in America, and it's not the big buzzword that it has been, but we still do have to manage our reserves. We still need to make sure that we are not wasting energy, that we are using it in the best possible way. And I still can't see how you can say to people, yeah, use as much energy as you want and be sustainable and be green, because it's an education piece. And I think one of the points that I kind of did make on the session is that actually if you're going to go down this route of taking out the inclusive and making it pay as you go bills, or whether it's a fair usage scheme, is you've got to educate people on what that means and why that's different. And I don't think at the moment we educate people enough about what all inclusive means, anyway. So we're already in a in a in a down position. And I think it is about education, and we do need to make sure that we are talking about this, talking about the consequences, and talking about the impacts it has.

SPEAKER_02 39:37

I talked about this about uh two weeks ago with Jamie, who is founder and CEO of Code Student Accommodation. So Code are a primarily Midland space, they've got properties in Coventry and Leicester and various other places too. And they have meters in each room, and they are able to offer and do offer separated energy. And so, you know, your electricity can be separate to your rent and you pay for what you use. And I think that is a potential direction of travel for more people. Do you think that's the case, Deany? Do you think more people are going to start to separate that? Or do you think the USP of PBSA is the fact that you've got all inclusive bills and it's one payment and you don't have to worry about it?

Wrap-Up, Rollover, And Reviews

SPEAKER_04 40:24

I still feel the overriding view is that all inclusive is one of our USPs and we shouldn't take it away. And and this comes down to my argument of we're not operating in the world that we started operating in 10, 15, 20 years ago. But yet we're still having the same arguments. And yeah, of course, if you say to students you want all-inclusive bills, they're gonna go, yeah. But if you say actually, if you want all inclusive bills, then it's gonna be an extra£10 a week or£10 a month, that's a totally different conversation. And and I think that is where we need to get to. And I I think I said this before in the podcast, and I didn't get to say it at the session last Friday, was that I still am getting stronger in my feelings that having all-inclusive bills is the same as the fact that we flush toilets with drinking water in this country, and that's utterly ridiculous. And I think actually just letting people have free reign on bills when we know the impact of energy and that we've got to conserve our energy, and that it isn't a an endless commodity that we have, it seems ludicrous that we're letting people just and we know from our kind of youth forums that Sarah and I do is that what we get back from people who are in all-inclusive accommodation is I've paid for it, it's free. It's like, no, you're paying for it, but because they've only got one bill, they're just thinking, well, I'll just use as much as I want. So that's not helping anyone, that's not helping the operator, that's not helping the planet, and it's not helping students because it's just upping bills if you're using more of it.

SPEAKER_03 41:58

I think we do know anecdotally from kind of the conversations that we have with suppliers and clients as well, is there are some that are starting to plan ahead and when they're developing buildings, um they are building in the technology to be able to meter individually. I don't think it's clear whether they will activate that or not, but they they will have the ability to do that. And it's also about future-proofing because we've talked before about you know, if PBSA is a viable, what could it be in the future? You know, and obviously there's a lot of bills included in co-living and BTR, but there's also a lot of bills not included in co-living and BTR as well. So if you plan to have these meters, then it means that you can pivot to a different model in the future if you want to. That's not saying you have to, but you're geared up, and that should be a massive plus for an investor and a developer.

SPEAKER_04 42:50

Yeah, and I think that again, back to kind of our utopic conversation is that actually this technology is there and able, we're able to do this now, and it comes down to are you willing to make the investment? And for the life of a building and its energy consumption, putting in things that's gonna manage the energy much more efficiently is the right thing for the building. If you've got a short-term investor that wants to take their money out, it's not gonna get the the ROI in the time that they want it. And I think this is again the challenge we have from a from a building perspective. All our buildings should have as much green technology in, as much energy management in as much as it can be managed effectively as possible. That's because the building's gonna be there for a long time. But again, it's about the return on investment for the investor. And I think again, this is one of the challenges we have.

SPEAKER_03 43:37

And with that, I think it's a debate very much like the webinar that you're on, Dee Lee, that could go on and on all day. So we will pause it there because we will definitely come back to it. And it would be really, really great to hear feedback from our audience about what they think as well. So make sure that you stay in touch.

SPEAKER_04 43:53

And a big thank you to Tim, Stephen, uh from Amber and George Sell from Urban Libre News for inviting me because I did enjoy the conversation. So thank you.

SPEAKER_03 44:01

Perfect. That was a great episode. What a lot of news and events we had to catch up on. Um and we didn't actually get through all of the things that we were going to get through. So we will have a rollover episode next week, I think. Thank you so much for listening. And as I said, we will be back next week for more news, news, and insight. We do appreciate all of your messages and feedback. Keep it coming. And of course, let us know what you want us to keep on discussing. And if you're feeling super kind to generous, we would love some more reviews. It really, really helps us with future sponsors, which enables us to keep bringing you our weekly episodes. So we will see you all again next week.