Why is Coliving such a Hot Topic right now? Who Defines Coliving? Is Coliving still Alternative? With Bart Sasim from Coliving Ventures.

We have another deep dive episode of Housed this week - and for this one we are discussing everything coliving with our expert guest Bart Sasim, Co-founder and Managing Director of Coliving Ventures BV 

Coliving has been an ongoing theme on the podcast and is a really hot topic right now, so we wanted to dig a little deeper and demystify some of the myths surrounding it. In this episode:

- We pin down what coliving actually is and why it keeps getting misunderstood.
- Look at how the sector has evolved over recent years.
- Discuss the biggest opportunities for operators in coliving.
- And take a look ahead to what coliving will look like in the future.

It was great to shine a spotlight on this significant part of the sector.

We are looking forward to attending the Coliving Conference in October. Listeners can get a discounted ticket to the Co-Living Conference with code HPOD26cc at colivingconference.com.

Dan Smith is Founder of RESI Consultancy and Co-Founder of Verbaflo.AI.

Sarah Canning and Deenie Lee are Directors and Co-Founders of The Property Marketing Strategists - Elevating the role of Marketing in Property.

Who this episode is for:

• PBSA and student accommodation professionals
• BTR, co-living and rental operators
• Property developers and investors
• University and higher education leaders
• Anyone working in or around housing policy and shared living

The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the hosts and guests alone and do not necessarily reflect the views of their employers, organisations, clients, or partners. This podcast is for general discussion and informational purposes only. Nothing said should be taken as professional, legal, financial, or investment advice. While we aim to be accurate, we make no guarantees and accept no liability for decisions made based on the content of this podcast. 

Transcript

Welcome And What We Are Exploring

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Hello and welcome to another episode of How's the Shared Living Podcast. This is the podcast where we explore the people, projects, and ideas shaping the future of shared living. I'm Dan Smith from Verbalflow AI and Resi Consultancy.

SPEAKER_04 0:12

I'm Dini Lee from the Property Marketing Strategists. And I'm Sarah Canning from the Property Marketing Strategists.

SPEAKER_02 0:18

And you're in for a treat today as we dive into the world of co-living with a very special guest. As regular listeners know, co-living has been an ongoing theme. It's a fascination and maybe it sparked some confusion too. So today we'll be discussing what exactly is co-living, who's it for, where does it sit within the shared living sector, and what's the future for co-living in a challenging market? So to help us answer those questions, we are delighted to welcome Bart Sashim from Co-Living Ventures. Bart, thanks to uh thanks for joining us.

SPEAKER_01 0:49

Thanks for

Meet Bart And Co-Living Ventures

SPEAKER_01 0:50

having me today.

SPEAKER_02 0:50

And so for anyone who hasn't come across co-living ventures before, can you just tell us a little about what you do, how you found your way into the world of co-living as well?

SPEAKER_01 0:59

Absolutely. So uh Co-Living Ventures uh was founded as a co-living and shred living uh industry catalyst, and it developed uh into a venture builder and consolidation platform designed to professionalize, scale, and mature the global co-living and shred living uh sector. Uh we look at the industry quite holistically uh through our three specialized uh pillars Co-Living Insights, which was founded in 2019, uh, it which serves as a um as our media research and business intelligence platform. And then in 2021 we kick-started uh Co-Living Awards, which benchmarks global best practices across design, development, investment, operational, and technological verticals. And uh Co-Living Ventures established in 2023. We have uh previously organized some events since 2021, but that's when it actually, let's say, consolidated for us, which acts as an annual high-level physical and also let's say we stream so it's a hybrid uh summit where investors, developers, operators, and other actors uh align. Uh my entry into this space was driven by realization that the traditional, traditional residential and uh let's say hospitality in some way, uh real estate assets, uh asset classes were completely disconnected from modern demographics, economics, and uh psychological realities, I would say.

SPEAKER_02 2:34

Amazing. And and what keeps you excited about it today?

SPEAKER_01 2:37

Well, there is uh there is actually a couple of the things that uh uh that yeah, I would say the most important is uh probably how dynamic this uh sector is, you know. So I've been in short-living PBSA already for a while, and I've been seeing evolution uh through these early stages, you know, to nowadays. And uh I think not every day is the same because essentially you've got uh those new uh new concepts popping up uh quite uh rapidly and observing what is uh what is getting you know what is getting out uh really you know like uh quickly uh throughout, I would say uh throughout the globe. It's uh it's it's really inspiring. You know, I like this environment that is uh uh that is essentially um catalyzing those uh those new models uh that vary. And that's what I guess we're gonna talk about uh today.

What Co-Living Really Means Globally

SPEAKER_04 3:33

So a good place to start, I think. And any listeners that are regulator house know that we dabble in this question on a regular basis, shall we say, but I feel like we've got the right man to define it now. So part million dollar question. What actually is co-living? Is there a definition that is kind of clear and relevant and spans the whole sector globally? Wow, yeah, globally.

SPEAKER_01 3:56

Yeah, globally, we must uh define co-living as uh first, you know, if we talk about uh professional sector as a professionally managed uh residential real estate technology, but nowadays uh also more of a hybrid hospitality, I would say. So blend of uh meat and uh long stay essentially combines combines self-sustained uh or optimized through clusters, uh, private living units. You know, so actually that's something that differs uh in in those those those different markets. I mean, in in UK it's a bit more uh studio-led, right? And uh here in Europe you've got also clusters. Um but actually I would say co-living, you know, let's separate co- and living. You know, so that I've got three codes for you. Uh I would say comfort, so that's something that defines modern uh living product with high-quality shirt uh amenities and obviously self-sustained uh or you know, clustered uh rooms that are well designed for the modern dweller. Convenience, you know, so nobody wants to worry about the bills. Uh this it all needs to be inclusive. There needs to be some kind of uh nice hospitality treatment that actually defines this uh this modern product and community, uh, intentional curated community that is programmed in a way rather facilitated than managed. We can talk about it later, maybe. But so that that the software of uh uh of this type of uh real estate is uh is probably something that is very important. It's I would say it uh distinct from a multi-family or build build-to-rent, as you call it in UK, because of its operational emphasis, uh, which is placed on experience economy, I would say, service service integration, quite deep service integration and friction-free uh living. So that once again goes back to this convenience, and it is not uh definitely not anymore an informal house or house slash uh flatshare, depends you know what kind of scale, or uh HMO, housing uh uh multiple occupation, as you call it in UK. That's how it actually PBSA also uh started, right? You guys are uh very much uh active since early days of uh PBSA, so you know exactly that. Uh so I think overall it is uh highly sophisticated, hospitality-driven, I would say nowadays, uh asset

Studios Privacy And Community Programming

SPEAKER_01 6:24

class.

SPEAKER_03 6:24

So I feel we've got a bit of confusion in the UK around co-living, and like you say, but it's largely led in the UK by studio um co-living studio assets. But does it really I don't I I totally understand that concept around kind of comfort and convenience and community and experience, but can you deliver all those things if it is just a studio led?

SPEAKER_01 6:49

I think you you you can. I mean, in the end of the day, when you look at uh hospitality, right? Uh in hospitality, you've got different types of hospitality concepts uh also uh contained in similar uh uh size, and it also comes down to programming, you know, how do they uh differentiate? So, you know, whether it is like a um hotel, you know, or hostel, uh you know, it's okay, the product can be defined, you know, uh differently for uh different types of offerings, you know, but uh in the end of the day, the privacy I think nowadays uh it's quite important aspect. I mean, that's something that's uh probably evolved uh over time. You know, so when uh when I was studying in uh in UK in 2006, 2009, there wasn't much of a product in Brighton behind you know this PBSA uh um nomenclature, there was probably uh you know one, two buildings, uh dormitories, and everything else was uh was HMO. I guess the demand for modern type of product where uh people can really uh disconnect when they want to. So the privacy uh is quite important aspect, and people still do it and uh connect to community in in other ways. And I think that's what makes the difference, the programming, the usage of the common areas. And I guess you know, if you if you analyze it uh from the perspective of what I already mentioned uh previously, the BTR uh multifamily um let's say type of setup. Obviously, in BTR you also have uh create facilities and amenities, but it it does come to uh in a bit more intentional uh community uh creation. The software is uh is different. The product might be sometimes similar, uh depends uh obviously on the size of those uh self-contained units. But uh I would say nowadays the the renters in majority of countries uh wouldn't go for um the trade-off on sharing uh a bathroom uh with a stranger from mid to let's say high-tier uh uh product, and that's why those those units are self-contained, at least with the bathroom. Um they would likely probably with these clusters that we have uh here on continental Europe, they would uh they would share a living room and uh another area's kitchen, you know. That's something that actually makes it uh more communal. And uh yeah, this self-contained uh studios, uh they can still function in in this co-living setup as uh some of the co-living uh schemes uh proof in UK, I think so quite successfully.

SPEAKER_02 9:34

I I love the way you've just you've just put that in terms of simplifying what co-living is with the with the three cos of comfort, uh convenience and community there. I think confusion uh is the is the is the not necessarily the fourth one, but it's always been the one that I think we've struggled with in the UK, in part due to I think the fact that, and and actually no, I'll reframe this slightly as a as a question.

Who Co-Living Serves And Why

SPEAKER_02 9:58

To what extent do you think that co-living is sort of seen as this hybrid where it's all things to all people, as it were? And I by that I mean it's young professionals, it it can you know potentially be uh older professionals, uh it's students as well. Do you feel like appealing to such a broad demographic means that it may sort of miss the mark for certain brands or assets and as a as a class overall?

SPEAKER_01 10:26

I actually I don't think so because this is a little bit of uh old school real estate uh approach, right? So, like when I started uh my studies in 2006 uh in UK, actually in Brighton, I've been studying in tier architecture. And uh and there uh we've been actually learning how to um yeah how to not only adapt the buildings uh and uh you know let's say the adaptive reuse was not the only thing that uh uh was the the primary uh goal of this, but uh actually the form that followed uh the function, you know. So if you if you tap into this form functions and you then combine this with uh the end demographic, then we've got a very important question to ask. Who defines uh co-living or who defines the need for specific uh living typology? Is it the investors, uh developers, operators? Is it us, the industry, who is you know, who's making it easier to define and uh copy-paste maybe the models that were already working in PBSA, or is it the end demographic, you know, that the that essentially goes and lives there? And I think that that was the structural uh change, you know, from the real estate crisis, you know, the global uh financial and real estate crisis in 2008-2009. Uh, I have realized that the traditional real estate functions, you know, and definitions uh already uh back then were broken, you know, like the assets were being uh valued strictly on passive uh square meters. That's one of the metrics that uh probably we would use, you know, on like uh you know how to define uh co-living, um, and uh completely ignoring how the space were actually programmed, lived in and an experience. And I think this experience economy in our generation, uh, with this experience economy changing the way that people actually uh share their private space through like you know, Airbnb, uh share their car sometimes running, you know, like a site gig, you know, through uh Uber or anything else with experience economy. That's something that shifted, I think, the perception of uh you know what we can achieve as consumers. And uh getting this new generation of PBSA, you know, like let's say dwellers, you know, the the students that come into PBSA, uh, we actually trained the new customer that is going to ask for similar or even higher quality of those uh uh services that can be uh can or should be delivered on the next uh on the next asset lifecycle milestone, right? Uh sorry like life cycle uh milestone. I mean, in the end of the day, it is uh uh about the the demand. And what uh what I think is uh is very important to stipulate here is that uh those misconceptions uh you know that they appear majority of times because uh it's not easy to to define what uh you know what should be the um the one fits all uh definition. And we've got different definitions, you know. Like if you actually uh think about this, you know, like living versus co-living, what is the difference? Is the the cause that we already defined. But the the more the most important one is probably the community aspect. So people who want to live in a community, there are people who don't want to live in a community, and that's absolutely fine, but at least people have got choice, right? But then when we look at uh at this full spectrum of different sectors, we we tend to use these different labels, you know, PBSA, you know, that's uh student living, let's say, uh, and obviously student housing, etc. etc. Then you've got PBSL. When I started uh working on the first schemes that were shred living, co-living schemes, it was still called PBSL. That's what we appropriated, you know, to make it easier, purpose-built shred living. In the end of the day, it was about uh technically using uh the blueprint from uh PBSA and trying to apply it to other demographics of uh young professionals and professionals. Our first project uh with special experience, my other company was uh essentially in Berlin uh in 2006, 2016, 17. We've been defining uh back then you know purpose-built uh shared living uh scheme that uh that was uh with the same principle of a modern product as PBSA, but then uh it was for completely other demographics. So, to your question, I think uh we can actually develop co-living uh products for different demographics. And I just came back from uh senior housing and healthcare summit in Brussels, it was last week, and uh and I have uh learned that it even this senior housing and healthcare uh environment is starting to understand better of like you know what what is the this what are these different products, you know, and when we talk about senior uh co-living, what does senior co-living actually mean? You know, and in that case, you know, it is usually uh removing the healthcare component, right? So that's uh that's a completely other uh side of the aisle, uh meaning you know, the the senior, you know, and everything in between can serve actual purpose, you know, because uh then we if we talk about intergenerational living, you know, so bridging these two and everything in between, or even uh co-living for um single parents, yeah, single moms, single dads. Something can happen, but you still need the support net uh the the support net the network that supports you, and then you you still need the product that essentially is going to help you sustain the lifestyle while working, you know, and actually overviewing uh your your child or children, and uh and there are like uh co-living uh communities for uh gamers. These are like gamers and LGBTQ. Uh there is so many different variations, and uh why would we uh why would we only focus on uh one demographic trying to make it uh easier for ourselves uh if diversity is actually but what makes our life uh probably the most uh the most beautiful, right? And this the same applies for co-living, I would say. So I I guess co-living is the answer for uh for loneliness epidemic, uh that's one thing, but also for this strive for convenience. We live in a really fast world uh where we are being bombarded with uh information constantly, and uh having these private units uh where you can actually retrieve from uh uh from this uh information. And on the other side, when you need this community, go back to the common areas and actually uh enjoy the uh the presence of uh of different uh individuals and mingle with them. I think that's what that's something that makes it beautiful. And coming back to the question, uh, what makes me excited is actually this you know, solving those problems through co-living uh for different demographics. That's exactly why why I'm doing

From Co-Living 1.0 To 3.0

SPEAKER_01 17:41

this.

SPEAKER_02 17:41

So you mentioned 2017 back then. Um I think you you said you're in you're in Berlin at that time. Um, and now what has changed um in the co-living industry since that time until now?

SPEAKER_01 17:55

Well, I think that a lot a lot has changed, you know. So uh there has been like um there has been evolution from you know early days of uh of co-living were actually the days when um uh when we still had a lot of this um co-living 1.0 as I call it, you know, the first generation of co-living, and we had a lot of this uh HMOs and uh flat, you know, I call it flatshare co-living, house share co-living is just a bigger, bigger scale, but then people actually were adopting existing products, you know, existing uh uh flats. That's how habit started, you know, with projects uh back then, also in Berlin, essentially splitting the flat into uh different units and then creating the small uh small areas to share. And then people started to take bigger uh buildings, you know, and uh converting those, you know. So then this was this started to be a second generation of let's say retrofitting existing uh real estate, adapting this for the for the use you know of uh of this modern uh demographic that actually needed uh something different when you know going to the city and uh and living uh completely different lifestyle that would live uh where they come from, right? But I think um when you if you would ask me, because probably your question goes uh into like investor attitude, you know, and uh uh and probably like some operational aspects, you know, and residency, you know. So let me break it down into those three, you know. So I think the capital markets you know have transitioned uh from um treating co-living as uh speculative, you know, I I think that's something that we've seen before um corona uh pandemic, before the broke, you know, that uh there were a lot of questions popping up. Is this going to work? Is this not going to work? You know, is uh and then uh is this uh something that will last? Is is co-living here to stay? And we started to uh understand that co-living is here to stay only during uh pandemic, right? When people were uh actually contained in this uh in these buildings and being able to actually live in their um city uh neighborhood and being uh essentially um for each other uh back then, and that's something that's probably uh actually accelerated co-living, you know. So this uh moving from this speculation whether this is going to work, you know, and uh and then moving into more like a niche alternative uh asset class with uh uh maybe at that time still unproven exit strategies, uh into valuing, you know, highly resilient, you know, what I mentioned about this whole corona case, uh uh core uh core grade uh product, you know, because it started to develop into this, and uh back then we still didn't have that many transactions, but we are starting to have and have those transactions now. When Goldman Sachs moves into co-leaving, then uh we should ask ourselves is this institutional already, or do we need more of exits, uh MA's, you know, and an overall uh activity? Well, that's something that probably will evolve in the next uh couple of years, like with everything you've been present in uh PBSA, you've been experiencing this, you've been seeing this, you've been uh thriving in this, I would say, guys. You know, so I I think we will experience something similar for co-living. When it comes to operational maturity, you know, so the one once again, you know, like living this small, uh living this in this small environment, the user could uh could treat it not so you know not so not with so much demand. Uh so those early stage uh startups, co living startups were not as professional. And I think over years, you know, the startups that were relying on on this like master leases, you know, and uh local. Fragmented uh software, or sometimes actually they were doing this by hand, right? Uh, has been replaced by uh uh a bit more capitalized uh scalable platforms, you know, and that's something that we are starting to see professionalization in in co-living. I would say the last uh three, four years we've we've been seeing this uh accelerating uh throughout the whole globe, uh essentially. But um I think what is very important to mention also is probably that uh operators uh now deploy a bit more structured uh management uh agreements, and uh you know, and those are like um yeah, this the second, third generation, mirroring a little bit more hospitality uh sector, I would say um it's it's this kind of label, and uh and more advanced uh prop tech um prop tech stack, uh optimizing the operational uh yeah, operational uh I mean uh net operating income, uh the yield uh management and community LTV overall, I would say, you know, so that's something that uh moves uh moves forward. When it comes to the third one, the last one, resident uh expectations. I think over these years, because people started to experience uh co-living, the the consumer profile has uh matured, and uh residents no longer accept those smaller units. Um where they share and a bit cramped spaces, you know, and uh and like cheaper, let's say cheaper attack, you know, they're willing to pay a little bit more for private space, uh, top-tier wellness uh amenities. Uh you've got those you know already in co-livings in uh in UK. Uh well done, you know, for having uh already developed some of those products. Uh but the seamless remote, uh remote work infrastructure I would say is uh is very important pretty much all over the globe. Uh but what binds it all together is once again what I mentioned earlier, we see this uh hospitality style uh convenience uh that uh entered residential um real estate, and that's something that I would say developed over the last no, let's say three to six years, you know. Like as I mentioned, we started to look closely into uh co-living in 2016-17, but with co-living insights, we started to get a bigger picture in 2009, 19, sorry, 2019.

Affordability Myths And Real Tradeoffs

SPEAKER_04 24:52

Um, but I just want to pick up on something that you you said. You've kind of everything you've said sounds, I guess, quite premium, if I'm honest, about co-living, you know, to curate a community, to provide the facilities, the management, the quality that you're talking about, you know, and that's clearly something that's really evolved over the last kind of decade, really. Like you said, the units are getting bigger, it's getting more professional. Do you think one of the misconceptions of co-living is that it's it's uh an affordable or a cheap option for young professionals and you know graduates to live in?

SPEAKER_01 25:30

No, not really. I've I think we can expand on this and I can give you some uh interesting examples about this different uh price tax, you know. But obviously, this is going to wind into a long conversation on how do you stimulate uh the developers, investors to build uh uh cheaper. Um, but uh the misconception about the the the lingering myth, you know, that's uh is that the colleague um requires to sacrifice the uh the privacy in the beginning, you know, or like sacrifice uh trade off the the size, you know, with this densification of units uh um for um uh for let's say higher price uh that comes with these uh amenities or sometimes over over-amenetized uh buildings. And I think the the the you know the the biggest uh probably game we gonna we're gonna play right now is going to be the hardware versus versus you know software. You know, I think this is the trap you know that's uh that we are currently facing, you know, many real estate developers, excuse me, uh mistaken belief that the community essentially is a physical uh the physical amenity you can simply uh buy off uh an architectural spec sheets uh um splash you know on on a on a community and everything is going to be okay, you know. So like whatever you're gonna create, people are gonna need to use. I don't think this is uh this is something that uh functions you know nowadays. So um a lot of this uh this modern um you know 3.0 co-livings are actually already evaluating how the space is being used in in their their previous generation uh buildings, right? So these are the most uh more experienced ones, and that's when they try to balance you know of what needs to be really added, what doesn't need to be added. When I said this wellness uh or you know cinema, that's that's you know, let's say one type of a product they need to have this premium product, but you can also strip down the hardware, uh make some spaces uh multifunctional and uh and just program them differently, right? So then you've got a little bit more agile uh spatial arrangement, and that's something that uh I guess uh still can provide great uh price to value, can uh um can actually take some of the operational cost off and empower uh community. Why? And I think this is very important, you know, the top-down doesn't work anymore. Yeah, like that's something that I think you guys know from uh the PBSA. Uh nowadays I think the facilitation of community and providing the software also through uh through software, actually, through the through prop tech, you know, through through fintech, uh through technology, providing the software components. So, how do you operate actually actual bricks and mortar is uh uh is is is very important also for um I would say optimization of uh of the price, you know, and uh in the end of the day, with all of these different uh costs rising, you know, nowadays with these uh two two worlds that were which has you know uh suddenly experienced uh the rising costs, and you've done a number of uh pieces and podcasts about this. I don't want to talk too much about that, but uh the end customer um needs to be able to afford uh various types of products, you know. So I think it's very important to right now go into affordable.

A Dutch Model For Social Rent

SPEAKER_01 29:16

We've been working with uh through special experience from my other company that does uh consultancy and and creative, you know, it's a consultancy creative studio. We've done recently a project with a Dutch developer, um Vout, and they developed 1828. They developed this uh these schemes in a kind of a PPP uh formula, right? And what happens uh there? And that's something that maybe I can uh go from this, let's say, a bit premium to affordable, and and and I can paint a picture for you of uh of how this developer played uh his game. Essentially, in order to make uh the product affordable, he partners up with municipalities who have got a piece of land you know that can be adopted uh to residential use, essentially. Uh and uh and in the Netherlands we've got something called uh, you know, which means basically like a subsidy uh for young professionals. If they do not earn a specific amount, they can get a subsidy. The the main requirement there is that you need to have a separate door, so you need to have a separate uh unit. Now we come back to this uh self-sustained units, and uh that's uh yeah, that you need to meet specific uh requirements in this point system. I don't want to go too much into the point system right now. You probably know how it works in PBSA, but essentially, what does this allow to do? Uh just to finish this up, it allows to knock down the price from uh mid and from medium uh rent into social rent. So young people are starting with uh uh rents on the level of seven to eight hundred euros, you know, having actually their own uh studio. Forget about it, you know, in in the market uh uh reality. This is not possible, you know. So you need to you need to work out your way, and there are some smart ways of doing this in many actually countries. Um I'm just giving you a Dutch example because that's where I'm based, you know, and I I think that that that paints it paints a picture, right?

SPEAKER_02 31:20

That that's really helpful. I think we've covered a lot the um covered the evolution, we've covered sort of where we're at now with with co-living, and uh you know, please you've really touched on the affordability side of things there. What are some of the biggest opportunities that you see for co-living operators over the next few years, should we say?

AI Efficiency With Human Hospitality

SPEAKER_01 31:39

The biggest opportunity is the critical intersection of um technology, I would say, uh AI-driven operational efficiency. I mean, when I say like AI-driven, you know, and that's what we talk about uh on the conference as well, is like how AI and human beings can coexist. You know, remember, this is like operational real estate, so uh we will not be able to replace 100%. Uh, but the AI-driven operational efficiency and probably uh human authenticity because that's what will define you know this or that brand. And the industry is currently hyper focused on uh uh on the prop tech from the perspective of automating uh building BMSs, you know, building management uh systems, uh smart locks, uh and starting to adopt AI um for utility billing, you know, but the real underdiscussed opportunity is uh using AI to automate all the boring stuff, right? And that's what actually will allow this you know friction uh field, uh, back office, logistics, uh call it invoicing, maintaining uh tickets, con uh contract renewals, uh client acquisition, you know, some parts of the communication, but um I'm not removing here like uh the communication on the human side is very, very important, so that we can re reinvest those typical costs uh into front of house, the the human software, which is very, very important. I think that's something that uh we in real estate will experience on a positive note, the AI, right? Because it will not uh cut the you know the cool jobs. You need to, I mean, in hospitality, a majority of people burnt out from this, uh from what I uh have been uh studying, you know, mainly because of this boring stuff, you know, and they they love to have this human-to-human interaction. That's what I think what keeps people in hospitality, and that's something that we need to create also in uh in residential real estate and hybrid hospitality. Uh so by liberating um our community hosts from this like uh uh administrative uh debt, you know, and uh you know, making them focus face-to-face uh with authentic uh human interactions, working on mental well-being of the residents, because that that's something that probably will uh play a big uh big role in highly isolated uh world, you know, where we all sprint and do our day uh day-to-day and don't have time to stop. And if you don't have a host that can actually stop because you know they've got a pile of uh emails to read through and uh and do these boring jobs, then yeah, then you will not be able to uh create a genuine uh community and curate it, right? So technology should uh uh should actually disappear in the background, I would say, uh, to make the physical human experience uh more prominent, I would say. That's something that uh that will be the biggest uh uh advantage uh um for co-living and uh short living overall.

SPEAKER_03 35:02

And I think that's really fascinating, but and I think what you're talking about, how the sector is learning from that first generation stock and like continually moving that forward and helping with the affordability piece. I think one thing that we're always talking about on housed is that how, in our view, um co-living and BTR and all these kind of new residential asset classes really have a role to play in kind of the housing crisis that we're seeing in UK and across Europe.

What Success Looks Like In 10 Years

SPEAKER_03 35:31

Um, so if you kind of take where we are now and you fast forward 10 years, what do you want to see co-living succeed and what is a successful co-living sector going to look like?

SPEAKER_01 35:43

Well, I think successful co-living sector from the perspective of sector, you know, and uh and recognition uh for co-living would be moving away and dropping the label of alternative, you know, asset class uh to achieve complete uh like mainstream acceptance. I would say that's something that uh probably we need to work on together with you guys and everybody else in the industry. So, as a main uh mainstream pillar of uh urban social infrastructure, we also will talk about it on the on the conference. Uh sort of co-living as a social infrastructure. Uh I think successful co-living will no longer uh exist in only standalone uh isolated buildings. Uh instead, it will be uh fully woven into the fabric of my macro neighborhoods, uh city master plans, I hope, uh, functioning alongside uh commercial, retail, uh, and traditional uh real estate as an enhancement to specific schemes, you know, or uh particular developments uh to to actually foster true intergenerational uh living, uh coming back to the basics uh of human beings, you know, when we when we uh were actually living in um yeah intergenerational uh setups, uh but uh deep uh environmental uh circularity, I think that's something that is going to be very important. I mean, we've been talking about uh heat waves before uh starting to record this, and that's something that uh we really need to look into on.

SPEAKER_03 37:25

Where you were talking there, how kind of making co-living mainstream is that we always talk that actually we need to market these sectors to people so they understand what the benefits are and what the differences are. And I think in the UK people don't really know what co-living is, um, as as people outside the sector, people customers, end user customers. Do you find in kind of Europe that actually residents do understand that and there is that difference? Like, are you ahead of the game compared to where we are in UK that people still don't know what BTR is, people still don't know what PBSA is, and people still don't know what co-living is in the UK?

SPEAKER_01 38:01

In highly saturated markets, people understand what co-living is because there is that much of product, to be honest. And so people come across you know co-living and uh Amsterdam, Barcelona, uh Paris, and Berlin, you know, people uh at some point uh find co-livings that are more flexible to book, and uh then they go and live there, right? And they understand wow, I've got community suddenly from day one, you know, I'm that plug-and-play situation. I meet friends, I meet new new girlfriends, you know, or whatever, you know, boyfriends. Uh there is suddenly startups popping up, you know. So um, so this will definitely, with time, like with every single other type of product, you know, and a sector that that develops with time, uh, this maturity will uh definitely gain on recognition. Um, I think you are very hard uh on UK Dini. I think there are some people who do understand co-living actually in UK, and uh we are going with our co-living conference this year to advance co-living uh from within, you know, let's say UK, and uh and they are starting to even go beyond those uh primary locations, right? So those primary locations such as you know, like let's say London, number one, right? But then you know, Manchester, let's say Leeds, you know, these are like this you know already the secondary uh cities, but the tertiary cities you know are starting to also gain uh some product, and I think that's something that is going to be beautiful when people will be able to experience co-living uh in uh in different scale because those are not going to be towers you know that uh will be coming up uh you know for like 20-25 floors, whatever. Uh this BTR-led uh ones that uh were adopted sometimes uh from hotel, uh let's say uses you know to be a bit more hybrid hospitality, but we will see uh those mid-scale uh co-livings that will infiltrate uh these different schemes and uh probably on a master uh master plans level will uh mix up the use uh you know the use uh definition the definitions. Um so that's something that's uh that will definitely um like advance, you know, and will make the um make those cities more attractive, you know, to also to live

Secondary Cities Hubs And Office Conversions

SPEAKER_01 40:33

in. We live in a in an era where people a lot of people work uh remotely, and uh I think cost uh pressure will make some of those people maybe go back to their cities and uh live there and maybe just uh hop on a train and go to this those bigger cities. Um I that's something that I I truly believe in. You know, if you ask me like where would you put your money? And I'm gonna tell you uh honestly where I put my money. I'm putting my money right now, developing our first scheme of a family office in actually in a secondary tertiary city in Poland, yeah. Like so uh I see that there is a great demand, there is no meatstay uh products, and uh what I uh you know, obviously there is a follow-the-money kind of uh um approach to this because there is quite some money being pumped there. But uh the infrastructure, if you have a very good infrastructure, uh rail, public transport, and uh and then you've got those uh co-living buildings uh next to these uh hubs, then that's like that's going to be probably the next uh uh wave of uh co-livings developing around those uh those hubs uh in London, outside of London, you know, in secondary, tertiary cities, you know, adoptive uh adoptive reuse. That's something that we also do. Um taking existing buildings and turning them uh into uh new environments, right? And you've got this uh class B, class C uh office buildings that are being uh converted uh everywhere, all over the globe. You know, that's something that uh that will probably bring the next wave of uh the next wave of uh co-livings, you know, those purpose retrofitted uh co-living schemes that uh will bring life back to the city. You know, like if you look at New York or other cities, they they struggle, you know, on how to adopt those uh strength assets and uh vacant uh offices into something that is going to also translate into economic value uh for the city and how how to actually maintain talent uh will be a question on like how to incorporate also co-living places where people actually want to create communities, live in a cohesion with the neighborhood, and uh drive more value for the city. I think that's something that is our job to do, guys, you know, like uh as uh as a sector, we need to come together and understand how can we convert those different uh policymakers, master planners, you know, urbanists, uh decision makers, and let them understand that they should maybe take into consideration, putting in their uh guidelines, uh master plans, specific uh you know, let's say provision of uh community-driven schemes. It doesn't have to be only co-living, it can be also co-housing, like we've got uh here in Amsterdam. We've got in my neighborhood of the office right now, we've got floating 200 meters further, we've got floating co housing. Yeah. 200 meters, 300, sorry, 300 meters there, you've got co-housing uh that is actually on the land, right? People come together, they develop their housing, they develop uh playgrounds, uh, they chip in, they develop playgrounds for their kids, you know, together, but not everybody can afford this. You know, this co housing is not affordable for. Everybody, and with time, we're gonna have less and less and less. So then the the the next step is probably uh you know co-living. Something in between would be like, how can we allow people, young people, to maybe buy into this real estate over time, you know, with a bit more stable um income, maybe rent-to-one uh schemes, and you know, answering your question, uh Nini, that's something that I would love to actually uh uh see more like rent-to-one uh ways, you know, of actually decreasing the uh dependency on uh on the institutional or PE capital and actually have it deploying some of the capital that uh we hold uh you know as as consumers.

Co-Living Conference Awards And Discounts

SPEAKER_04 44:48

There's so much to be excited about, but you've kind of you've you've explored so much. One thing that you just hinted at, and I feel like you're just teasing the audience really, is details about the upcoming conference and awards. Um, you know, what what does your conference and awards add to the the very busy conference season? Why is it such an important part of the calendar?

SPEAKER_01 45:12

Well, what it adds, I think it international it is international audience, it's quite global audience. So we're gonna have people from uh Japan to Canada talking about uh co-living in their own countries, right? We're gonna have you guys are going to join us as well. We'll have uh we'll have you actually uh I think Dini will be leading the high profile panel on day two uh from millennials through uh Gen Z to Gen Alpha, generational shifts, and future of co-living. We'll have actually the the whole the whole industry sector. They're going to be there are going to be investors, developers, asset managers, brokers, uh operators, property managers, uh, architects, designers, a lot of tech companies, which you know I think is going to be great. Dan is going to be there as well, uh, as I mentioned. Uh it's I think um it's uh it's at this moment a premier global gathering of uh of the entire shared living uh value chain that converges, uh you know, the you know converges and moves you know from the past uh hype to uh to focus on pure data-driven, a bit more institutional growth uh aspect of the sector. And we will have also co-living uh awards uh ceremony that takes place on the 14th, you know, on day one of the conference celebrating uh the absolute uh vanguard uh of innovation across uh 14 different uh categories. And we've got uh you guys also on board, you know, to judge uh one of those categories, which is uh which is great. That's how we can also advance basically benchmarking and uh comparing those different uh uh those different propositions. And um yeah, I guess uh that's going to be two to three days. We will announce uh day three soon, actually. We're gonna have some fun stuff, you know. Last year we did paddle, probably we're gonna do paddle this year as well, get together, uh especially those people who come from uh overseas from far away, they always like to stay in the city and mingle. I think it's going to be like some serious fun, you know, serious because we need to be serious, we need to obviously do business, but we need to have fun because in the end of the day, this event is an event that essentially brings uh people who create, you know, so we created community, business business-to-business community that creates communities, you know. So those people are already ahead, you know, and they already know how important it is to create the community. So you can skip this talk, what is co-living? Because everybody knows, or like they're already thinking like how to develop the next generation of co-living, how to differentiate. But I think the the beauty of this event, and that's something that uh I experienced myself, and you can read the testimonials. But I think what people find interesting in this is that there's a lot of knowledge sharing and openness and transparency. That's how we created this uh event to be.

SPEAKER_04 48:18

Well, we can't wait to have serious fun with um with I was gonna say exactly that.

SPEAKER_02 48:24

Yeah, that thanks so much for joining us, Bart. Um can't wait to see you at the Co-Living Conference, if not before.

Subscribe And Final Wrap

SPEAKER_02 48:30

Um, and just to let everybody know, listeners of housed can get a discounted ticket by using the code HPOD26cc. So that's H P O D 26cc. And just head to coLivingconference.com to go and book those tickets for October. It will be well worth it. So it's been fascinating spending um some time diving deep into uh into a significant part of the alternative real estate sector. And Bart, you've definitely brought it to life for us. So thank you very much for joining us. If you've enjoyed today's conversation, don't forget to subscribe to House the Shared Living Podcast, wherever you listen to your podcasts. And we'll be back next week with a special episode focusing on the Cubo conference and the key themes impacting higher education and accommodation. Thanks very much for listening, and thanks very much, Bart for joining us.