- So welcome, everybody. The very first episode of "The Mel Lawson Show." I'm not on egomaniac, it's just, that's the name. So don't judge me. I'm here with my brilliant colleague, Liv Evans, who's our head of social and content. In this episode, we're gonna talk about fear, which feels like a really fitting subject for a first episode of the podcast because obviously it's quite scary. We're putting ourselves out there. We're doing something new that we've never done before. We've got all the normal fears of: 0:00

Will everyone hate it? Will anybody listen? So we're gonna talk about fear, and in this episode we're going to talk about facing your fears. How amazingly brilliant you feel afterwards. And Liv and I both reveal two major fears that we had to overcome and then the unexpected payoff afterwards of just life changing amount of confidence that it gave us. Liv also has some brilliant practical tips on how to deal with that sphere of what people think of you. That's a very common thing that holds people back. What will people think? What will people say? So, yeah, I hope you enjoy this episode. Please leave comments. Please tell us what your fears are and hopefully you'll make a commitment afterwards to try and overcome some of those fears. There are lots of types of fear and we're not gonna talk about the really big, difficult ones. So we're not gonna talk about phobias because that's a big subject and we would probably want a psychiatrist or somebody here with us to talk about that. We're gonna talk about those fears that are rational but are within our control, but they're fears that stop us from doing things that we'd like to do. And we both have experience of those and I'm sure you all do listening. So that's what we're gonna talk about- We are.- today. And we did a little bit of research. We asked friends, family, team members, some of our customers, and we had some interesting, largely predictable answers actually, but some of them were quite interesting. Okay. So, Liv, I'm gonna start by asking you.- Yeah.- Can you tell me about a fear you've had in the past that you've overcome? And just talk me through that whole experience and process.- Yeah. Straight into the deep stuff. Love it. Yeah. A fear of mine recently, well, actually last year, was it last year or no, it was the year before, 2020.- It's always difficult when you're in January 'cause you can't remember which year you're in.- 2022.- Yeah.- I went to a retreat and that was a big step. I had to step through a lot of fears to get to that point where I felt like I could fly to a different country to go to a retreat of women I'd never met. And it felt like a very big, scary thing. And to give a bit of context, I'd done a lot of self-development work and delved into lots of fears of mine before that, that were smaller, with a help of a therapist and a coach. So I was at a point where I felt like, okay, I can do something that is really throwing me into the deep end. And this felt like that. It was the first time I was flying solo.- Wow.- So there was a lot. And I knew that it was gonna transform me because I was going to a retreat about self-development, but I didn't quite understand the impact that getting over that fear was gonna have on me. So I had all of the thoughts beforehand of, "God, can I really do?" I booked it very, like last minute and just made the purchase and thought, "Yeah, it's fine. "It's in a couple of months." Then as it was running up, I was like, "What am I doing?" I'm gonna get on a flight. I've never flown on my own, first time since the pandemic that I'm flying as well, and I'm deciding to do it solo. What am I doing? I was worried that I wasn't gonna be very good at making friends when I was there. What if I'm the odd one out? What if I get there and I hate it? That's the other fear.- Yeah.- What if I really have made a wrong choice? What if I, yeah, get stuck somewhere? There was lots of fears that I had to get through. So yeah, I had to break through a lot to get to that other side.- But it's something you wanted to do.- It is.- So the desire to do it was greater than your fears around doing it.- Yeah.- Yeah.- And I think the thing with fear, I'm trying to make friends with it a bit more now 'cause I don't think we can fully remove that from our lives. And actually it would be silly too. 'Cause there are, as you say, there's times that we do need to be fearful.- Serves a purpose.- It's rational.- Yeah.- But the fear that we are talking about, I do feel like it will be there, we kind of just have to remain courageous. Yeah. I learned recently, I've been coached a lot around fear and moving past limiting beliefs. And something I've learned is that the payoff, there is normally a payoff for you staying stuck for where you are. So the payoff is normally something that's keeping you safe and keeping you from feeling that fear. So my payoff for staying stuck and not going to the retreat is, well, then I don't have to fly on my own and I don't have to do as big scary thing and I can probably get on and live a comfortable life without going.- Yeah.- But I knew deep down I had that glimmer of, I really wanna do this.- Mm-hmm.- So the payoff of not doing it felt greater, you know, than if I stayed stuck. So yeah, that's what kind of gave me the push to do it anyway.- And one of the things we talked about, which we'll come onto a bit later as well, but is the unexpected benefit of doing that? So obviously you had a great retreat and quite a lot of breakthroughs, transformations, but something, with my experience, which I'll talk about later, was a surprising kind of after-effect was the confidence- Yeah.- it gives you.- Yeah.- Yeah.- Like when you realise, oh, okay, I can handle it if something... 'Cause there was times like the transfer was a bit late, someone's flight was delayed. I then started to go into my head about, "Oh, I might miss the transfer" and all that kind of stuff. But I thought, "I'm an adult, "I can handle this, I can do it on my own." Actually, it taught me a lot of independence. It taught me that I could do things that I didn't believe I could do before, like fly on my own. I did make friends, which was a big, that pushed through a huge belief of mine that I found it difficult to make friends, that people would think I'm weird.- Yeah.- And actually it was fine. More than fine. And I think it's the confidence you get after it is worth pushing through that uncomfortable feeling. And I think it's about tolerating that uncomfortableness because it didn't just go away. And there were points in the week where I was like, "Oh my God, I'm really out of my comfort zone here." But then when I got back, I thought, that's something, how amazing that I've managed to do that. And like Liv from a year ago would be, like, blown away that I managed to get on that plane. And then when I got back, I just realised my whole belief system had changed of what was possible in life and what I was possible and capable of doing. And I think that's where the confidence comes, is like, I can do hard things and I'm not gonna melt, or the world isn't gonna crumble if I do hard things. Which is, yeah, a big belief to get through.- Yeah. 'Cause when I ask people this question, quite a few people said, "Oh no, I don't really have any fears," which I know is not true. Because we all do. But maybe we don't see them as fears. They're actually, like you just said, self... What did you say?- Beliefs. It's limiting beliefs.- Limiting beliefs. And so people will say things like, "I'm not the sort of person that does public speaking" or, you know, I'm not the kind of person that does X, Y, Z.- Yeah.- But why aren't you that kind of person?- Yeah.- And actually, would you like to be able to do those things? But you've told yourself this story that, "Well, I'm not that sort of person." Which I think many... Did you? Is that kind of what you've- Yeah.- thought about yourself?- Yeah, the fear for me was, "If I push through this fear and I do this thing, "who am I gonna be on the other side of that? "And are people gonna accept this new version of myself "that is more confident, more assured in herself," which was all the things I was feeling. But then, you know, we're built inherently to want to be as part of a team and part of... People around us are so important to us as humans, we wanna belong. So it's also pushing through that uncomfortableness of, "I accept me and the people that don't accept me "or accept my choices." 'Cause some people wanna stay stuck because it's the easier thing to do because maybe people around them are saying, "Why would you wanna do that?"- Yeah. "Don't do that." Or "Use your money elsewhere." Or "Why are you not going on holiday "with your partner instead?" Or all these things from their own belief systems are coming in. So you have to be quite strong in, "No, this is something I have to do for me." And if people don't like it, they're not your people.- Yeah. Well, it's also that thing around, you know, a lot of people will say, "Oh no, why would you wanna do that? "That sounds awful." Or, you know, this sort of wanting to stay comfortable is thinking that, well, that's gonna make you happy. Don't put yourself in stressful situations on purpose. Like, don't choose to do something stressful.- Yeah.- Which is what you did.- Yeah.- But doing those stressful things actually makes you so much happier.- Yeah.- Because it's a sort of lots of, it's a combination of new experiences, but also feeling, "Oh, I did that.- Exactly.- "What else can I do?"- Can we start this podcast with you.- Yeah.- It's like pushing through that initial fear of,- Yes.- like that barrier.- Yeah.- And-- Yeah, for context, Liv has been nagging me since 2019.- Yeah.- About a podcast.- Yeah.- And- Finally got her on the mic.- I kept saying, "Nah, "no one's gonna listen to that." You know, "Why would anyone want to listen to me?" Blah, blah, blah. All those things. But yeah, so I had my own sort of big fear breakthrough last year. So when I was three years old, I fell into a swimming pool in Mallorca. My parents weren't being good parents and didn't notice that I was walking along the deep end edge in flippers that were way too big for me. And they all got all caught up and I went head first into the deep end and can still remember seeing, I could see the wall and the stairs as I was sinking to the bottom.- Oh wow. No.- And didn't know what to do. And just started screaming in the water as a 3-year-old. And now I don't remember anything else. And then thankfully my older brother, who doesn't normally pay much attention on me. No, just kidding. He hoicked me out and they had to do the whole, you know, pump my chest thing to get all the water out. And it was horrible. And then I wouldn't go near water again until I was about nine years old. And then I learned how to swim but I don't love being in deep water and I don't love being in the sea. And my brother-in-law, who's one of my husband's brothers, announced that for his birthday, 50th birthday, he'd like us all to go to Costa Rica. Sounds lovely, right? And go scuba diving. And do this magical experience. And my instant reaction was, "No way. "There's no way I'm doing that. "That sounds horrific."- Mm.- And then it brought up so much stuff around, you know, I'm just not the sort of person that can cope with that.- Mm.- And I have quite a legitimate reason. Why would you wanna do, that's not a useful life skill. You know, in an emergency, you don't strap on your scuba gear and go underwater. So there was a whole lot around it. But also it was a family thing. And I didn't want my children to think, "Well, mummy's not doing it so I won't do it." So I pushed myself to, and if anyone listening lives in Brighton, you know, the Prince Regent swimming pool, it's not the nicest place to learn scuba dive. And so we did it, there's a sort of diving pool where you go in, you've got all your kit on. And I was thinking, , I was a nervous wreck. I was saying, "Okay, it's not too bad so far." And then the first time we went under the water, and you have to do this exercise where you fill up your goggles with water. So your nose and your, this is all full of water,- Oh, wow.- but you're still having to breathe through your mouth, which sounds silly, but actually breathing through your mouth and not through your nose at the same time, you have to learn how to do that. So I was thinking, "Oh, this thing's filling out with the water. "I really don't like this." And then I breathed in and snorted a load of water up my nostrils and then felt like I was drowning. And I was looking at the wall of a pool, so it brought back a flashback to, and I literally sprung straight out of the water. Thankfully we not so deep. 'Cause when you're really deep, you can't do that 'cause then you get the bends and all that stuff. So I sprung out the water, started crying, which I don't generally, you know, I'm not a big public crier. And the instructor popped up and, "Oh my god, what's wrong?" And I said, "Well, I nearly drowned when I was three." And then my husband popped up and then he looked at my husband and said, "That's the sort of information "you're meant to have told us "when you booked this."- Yeah.- That's really important information 'cause we probably would've done it slightly differently. Anyway, thanks for that. So then I was in a bit of a state and I couldn't really calm down. So then I couldn't really do the rest of it properly. And I was trying, and then I was, just wanted it to be over, was trying not to influence my children, especially my youngest, to her thinking, "Well, mommy's scared, "so I know I'm scared." And just all this pressure. Anyway, we then finished and I said, "I'm never doing that again. "I don't ever want to set foot in a pool again like that. "That's horrific." And then I went into quite a deep depression, really weirdly, for about a week. And it sounds really bizarre, but it was a whole thing around, I was so annoyed that I was so crippled by this thing.- Mm.- And I was crossed with myself that I couldn't do this thing, which everybody said, "It's amazing. "You know, once you're down there "and you're not looking at the Prince Regent wall, "you are actually looking at sharks or turtles" or whatever. And I was so, so upset. Just the whole thing was awful. So then we went back and I tried again and I still really struggled with it. And then my husband booked us to go to Sardinia to do the full, you have to go into the sea and do the full, you have to do four dives to qualify to then be able to do it in Costa Rica. Anyway, so I went along the sort of thing, well, I'm just gonna go, so the kids go and I'll just stay on the boat and it's fine. And I'm just not gonna do it. And I'd sort of made peace with myself that I'm just not gonna do it. I'm just not that kind of person. But there was this voice in the back of my head going, "Yeah, but you do wanna be that kind of person "and, yeah, it's a bit lame if you don't do it." And, you know, I had a really quite harsh voice in my head, which I don't always think is actually a bad thing. I think, you know, self neg talk all the time is a bad thing. So this voice was really going on and on and on. So , I suppose, very Italian instructors, very kind of, like, literally, you know, they take a drag of a cigarette, flick it off the boat and then put their, you know,- Yeah.- their mask on and like... Yeah, very Italian. Which is actually I think what I needed because they were just weren't having any of my crap basically. So like, "No, of course. "Yeah, no, of course. "No, Melanie, you have to do it. "Don't be silly. "Get in the water, they . "It's okay. It's okay, it's okay." I was like, "Oh God. "Okay, all right. Okay. Fine, I'll just-"- That's a really good accent.- Yes. I do have an Italian degree. So I put all the kits on and my youngest was really nervous. So one of the instructors said, "I'll take-" And he was the older, the older guy was way less soft than the younger guy. He was like really hard as nails. He was like, "Right, we'll go first." And he took me down and did the mask thing. And I freaked out, went shooting back up and I said, "I can't do this, "I can't do this, I can't do this." And my, yep, daughter was watching me from the boat and he said, "Turn around so she can't see your face." So I turned around and he went, "She's watching you,- Hmm.

- "you're gonna put your mask back on "and we're gonna go back down and you're gonna stop thinking "and you're just gonna breathe." I was like, "Okay." All in the, you know, Italian: 1:27

"No, don't think. "Just breathe. "No think." I was like, "Okay." And I was thinking, "I just wanna get on the boat "and I don't wanna do this." I'm literally like,- Yeah.- I just wanna cry.- Yeah.- Like, "What the hell? "Why am I even here? "I hate this, I hate this, I hate this. "I hate you. I hate everyone." Not you, the instructor.- Yeah.- But then this voice was just there again going, "Come on, "you can do it. "Come on, don't be so lame." So I was like, "Right, I'm doing it." And went down, did the whole thing, and then did my next three dives; all terrified,- Yeah.- the whole time.- Yeah.- And the whole time I was down there, I would have to, you know, be self-talk myself through the panic and just go, "Right, just keep breathing," you know? And you have to do all these awful things where you have to sit on the bed of the ocean, take all your stuff off.- Wow.- And then you have to put it all back on again.- Yeah.- Anyway, I did it and I'm now a qualified, like, the basic level qualification. But what I didn't expect was to feel so amazingly brilliant and confident that I'd overcome this huge thing which made me really think about other fears that I have that are limiting. And actually you can push through them. And I really feel like if I can push through that one, then people can push through theirs.- 1,000%.- I mean, even hearing that story, and you've spoken to about it before. But just hearing the kind of process, I'm like in complete awe, 'cause like that, the fact that you did the practise and then it was even traumatic and you had a sort of flashback even then, what was it that made you push through to do that? I know there was a voice that was kind of saying, "Come on." But like that, to have that traumatising experience and still have enough courage to get back in the water again. What do you think was the thing that just pushed you back in?- So I had lots of friends saying to me, "Oh yeah, no, don't do that." And, you know, friends who've done it have said, "It's not that great even once you down. "Oh, why would you wanna do that? "You're 50." You know, "You don't need that stress. "Just don't do it." You know, "Read a book while they're all out doing it." And I'm like, "Yeah, yeah, you're right." But then I just kept thinking, I just hate the fact that, and I am quite competitive as well. So, you know, the rest of my family was doing it. My sister-in-law was doing it. And there was just this voice going, "Come on.- You wanted to do it.- Yeah. Yeah.- That was the thing. I did actually want to do it, but it was really, yeah, very, very difficult. So I think what the motivating thing was is, like we go skiing and I terrified of skiing. So I spend the whole time pretty terrified thinking, "I'm gonna die, someone's gonna ski into me, "I'm gonna be like Liam Neeson's wife, "and I'm gonna die." And, you know.- Yeah.- And I hate that I feel like that 'cause I can't enjoy it. And there's a lot of things where I'm scared and I don't enjoy it. And I don't enjoy bits of life... I was just, "Right, I'm just not gonna do that this time."- Yeah.- And then, yeah, that, "Oh, actually I can do that" was really quite life changing.- Yeah.- Yeah. So then we did the scuba dive in Costa Rica and it was actually really quite challenging 'cause the sea was quite rough. But I swam with sharks.- And did you enjoy it?- I loved it.- Yeah.- Yeah. I was quite scared. But the instructor was a lovely English woman actually, who lives out there, she said, "It's fine, "you just look at me the whole time." And she was amazing, called "Iguana Divers" in Santa Teresa, if anyone goes. And she, yeah. She just said, "Just look at me if you're scared."- Mm.- And yeah. And then once you start seeing all the... She said, "Once you see all the fish "and you'll kind of forget that you are terrified. "Takes your mind off it." Yeah.- There's something that really is coming to mind when you were speaking then, something that I've been looking into a lot is being the victim of your circumstances.- Mm.- And when you were speaking there, and it was making me think, you decided not to be a victim of what happened to you 'cause you could have easily said, "This is just me. "I had this traumatic experience" and actually kind of reasonable.- Yeah.- If you said you never wanted to get in the water again, I think I'd understand based on that experience. But you said, "No,- Yeah. "I wanna do this thing. "I'm refusing to be a victim of that." And I think a lot of us can victimise ourselves by our fear. And so when I think about, I have been developing a lot of self-love over the last few years. And when people hear that term, they think of it as like this fluffy thing and take bubble baths and that's all great. If that's your term of self love, that's great. But for me, self-love is doing hard things and knowing that I can look after myself in those moments. So I have my boundaries, if someone pushes me too far, I'm gonna say, "That's too much for me now, "I'm not gonna do it." But I'm always just pushing myself past that fear. Because for me, that's saying, "I'm not a victim of this feeling or this past experience." And that sounds like... Would you say that's correct? How you feel?- Mm. I think that's spot on actually. And without going into too much detail, I'm sure we will on another... We had similar childhood.- Yeah. Yes.- Which was not easy.- No.- And we were victims of adults because we were children.- Yeah.- And I think both of us, that really us off. And we both as adults are like, "No.- Yeah,- "I'm not, no-- I don't identify with that.- I'm not gonna be-- No. Yeah, exactly.- Cycle breakers.- Screw that. Yeah.- But also just not being...- Yeah, cycle breakers.- I spent a lot of my life being a victim of my past and I got sick of it 'cause I was like, this isn't serving me- Yeah.- and it's keeping me safe and I'm comfortable. I'm happily unhappy, I think is the way I'd put it. And I was sick of being in that state. And, yeah, when you were speaking then it did make me think of like that victim mentality that a lot of us live with because we don't know how else to move out of that. It's just what we've been given.- Yeah. Well, an example that maybe more people can relate to was when you applied for the job here, about seven years ago now,- Mm-hmm.- that was quite scary.- Oh yeah. I was in a different mental space when I applied for a job at "Bare Biology," let me tell you. Yeah, I had to push through a lot of fear. I had a lot of imposter syndrome. It was my first marketing job ever in my early 20s. I was suffering severely with anorexia at the time. So I was actually very mentally just busy with other things. So I was trying to excel in a career that I was new to whilst also dealing with something that, to me, at that time, I was very much a victim of that mentality. But yeah, I had to push through a lot of fear. Eventually told you about my anorexia,- Mm-hm.- which led to me getting therapy. But even voicing, "I'm struggling with this thing,"- Yeah.- is me making a pact to myself to say, "All right, it stops here" because a big part of anorexia is keeping it a secret. So even me voicing it to somebody was a huge deal.- Yeah.- To then also accept help then to break through the pattern of, "Oh, actually I'm keeping myself in this state now. "I'm in control of my recovery. "No one else can do it for me. "I have to put the work in" and the confidence of knowing that I have managed to recover. It's the same thing. It's like the fear of letting go of your old identity,- Mm-hm.- which actually was coming up a lot in the answers we were getting from people about what they were fearing, is like letting go of, that was my old self, who am I now gonna be? And are people gonna accept that? Am I gonna even accept that? Do I even like who I am, like the other side of recovering? Yeah. I think there was a lot of fear that I had to break through, but I'm here now and I'm very well, which is great.- You are. Had to get through a lot of that fear. Even speaking out.- Oh, you used to hate presenting in team meetings. You hated it.- And I remember there was a, in the coworking space we were in at the time, they asked me to present something for five minutes and I thought,- Oh yeah. "I'm gonna use this "as another opportunity in front of 10 people "to just speak about my recovery." And then the response I had from people was like, "Oh, I've had the same thing," or "My friend had this." And what I've realised about sharing more about these experiences and fears, we are not unique.- No.- So there'll be someone else out there- Yeah.- that has lived this same experience and we definitely see it in a different way, but we are not alone in our struggles and our fears. And normally when you voice it, there's someone else that feels the exact same way.- Yeah.- Which also boosts your self-esteem, confidence, all those things.- Yeah.- Because you feel alone.- We'll only have better conversations, better relationships.- Yeah.- But yeah, I mean most... I mean, again, you touched on this earlier. We are herd animals or pack animals. Very, very social. So a sort of caveman/woman fear is being outside of the pack. And if I'm outside of the pack and I'm rejected from the pack- Then I'm in trouble.- then I'm in trouble. And also if I show vulnerability, so if an animal is wounded, you know, they'll hide because otherwise, you know, it's like, "Well, you are a weak link here, "so off you go." So I think most people walk around hiding their fears, pretending they don't have them. But yeah, everybody does.- It's the same.- Yeah. And we know that because we ask people, and one of the ones that came up a lot was basically fear of embarrassment or fear of what will people think of me or say about me, seems is a really big one. And that's really linked to this, "I can't be outside of the pack," but from one person who said they haven't cut their hair since they were a child because... Well, not cut their hair, 'cause it'd be really long.- I know what you mean.- Haven't changed their hairstyle. Because as a child she feared people noticing and commenting on it and would love to go dress up to cool fancy dress parties, but just can't because of this... And this is a very outgoing, bubbly person. So yeah, I thought that was really interesting. And then there's more obvious ones like fear of public speaking. So someone on the team, our team would like to do public speaking and she's more than capable, you'd probably guess who it is.- Yeah.- But she's too scared.- Yeah.- Because she's scared of making a fool of herself or people laughing. And that I think is a really interesting one because I think we all fear that. And actually when you really, like, analyse it, the sort of people that would laugh at you and be mean to you are not the sort of people you should give two shits about what they think.- Right.- And yet, you know, the whole audience could think that's amazing. Then there's one person who, you know, snickers or sort of gives you a look like, "What the hell do you think you are doing?" And then you just focus on that one person.- Yeah.- And what's that all about? But so many people don't do things. One of our customers said she wants to write a book I think.- Yeah. Yeah.- And obviously has stuff to say, but she's worried that there'll be some sort of backlash or, you know, she'll get trolled or, you know, so that seems to be a really common one, One obviously most teenagers suffer from, my children suffer from, like,- Yeah.- this fear of embarrassment.- Yeah. And I think embarrassment though, the word that comes to mind for me when I think about embarrassment is shame.- Mm.- That fear of being shamed.- Yeah, it's just horrible.- Shame is such a horrible emotion to sit with.- Yeah.- And the majority of the time we shame ourselves.- Mm-hm.- And actually if someone says something and you think, like, "Oh, I feel shame about that," I've now come to realise that actually it's just their lens, they're viewing that you can't be for everybody. So if you are, I used to be the sort of person that would morph and people-please, depending on who was in front of me. 'Cause I wanted to survive and learnt that from early childhood, I gotta morph to the environment. As soon as I let that go, I did realise, "Oh, some people aren't really gonna get me," or "Some people might not agree with me."- Mm-hmm.- If you are okay with that and realise that actually that's a good thing. If you are for everybody, there's normally something missing. Like, who am I? I'm morphing for everybody. There's not ever a difference in opinion. That's okay.- Mm-hmm.- So I think if you can get happy with that and who you are and your sense of self, then someone can't have as much of an impact if they shame you because you're seeing it as well that's that person's belief pattern, lens, "I'm not for you," it can hurt, but I'll move on and I won't internalise it as much. And it does take practise- Yeah.- to get to that, I still take on other people's opinions. It's a human nature.- Yeah, it's very hard not to.- But it does come down for me with that shame, the underlying shame of that embarrassment.- Yeah, that's not a nice feeling.- And that's the being able to sit with that and realise that it's not yours sometimes, just to hand it back.- Yeah, and actually, you know, I've done a fair bit of public speaking. I was on live radio a couple of weeks ago,- You .- Smashed it.- which was super fun. And I get nervous. I mean I'm nervous doing this.- Yeah.- But it doesn't stop me doing it because partly I've done it enough times to know that, I mean, what's the absolute worst that can happen. But the good thing is afterwards generally you feel a buzz and you learn something and it's a great feeling. So one of the other, let's look at some of the other ones.- Yeah.- So fear of failure is obviously- Oh yeah.- like a classic one. And the amount of people, you know, who want to start a business, for example, or write a book or change job and they are all, "I can't "'cause, you know, "you know, what if I fail.- Yeah.- "Probably will fail." You know, that kind of mindset, which, again, is totally rational.- Hmm.- But the flip side and, you know, I've got a friend who would really, like, is incredibly talented, had a phenomenal career, is a full-time mom now, has been for a while. Kids are teenage and has this fear of, "Well, what will people say about me when I die "that, 'Oh yeah, she was a good mom,' "and that's kind of it." And there's stuff she wants to do, but it's just, she can't quite get started.- Hmm.

- And, you know, I started my business when I was 40 and I had three children and I'd never done anything like that before. And I had all of those fears of failure. I said, "Well, probably will fail." You know, that was my kind of... But then I thought, "But what if it was really amazing?" And I think we spend too much time on the what if: 3:44

All the bad things. What if this, what if this? And two things for me. So it's about what if it's amazing?- Yeah.- How cool would that be? And actually, if it's not, then at least I've tried. I think that for me, the fear of regretting wasting my life or not following a dream or doing something I really wanted to do is much bigger than the fear of what if it doesn't work.- Yeah. And also just relationship with failure. ' Cause I've learned more from my failures maybe than my successes.- Oh yeah. Mm-hmm.- So it's not always a bad,- Definitely. that I think society paints it as a bad thing to fail.- Mm-hmm.- And there'll be people in our lives that will be like, "Oh, you failed at that." Fine. But actually if you get past the initial disappointment, I normally, "It's not for me," or it leads to something else. So I think you're right, it's about the perspective shift.- Yeah. And I think if you're listening to this and there's something you wanna do. The other thing is it always seems a really huge and onerous. And the mountain analogy is a really good one, it's a favourite of mine. It's a favourite of our finance director's as well. If you look on his LinkedIn, he's currently doing a whole series about this. But it is like climbing a mountain. And if you look at the massive mountain, you think, "How am I gonna get to the top of that?"- Yeah.- Or "Not sure I wanna do that actually." You literally just have to take one step at a time, it sounds really cliched. And tell me something I don't know. But it is literally that. So if you wanna write a book, just start writing two sentences a day.- Yeah.- That's it.- Yeah.- And then that time's gonna pass anyway, in six months time you could have zero book or you could have a couple of chapters and then you've started it. And then once you start things you think, "Oh, that wasn't so bad."- And then the momentum comes in-- And then you go, "Oh, well, that wasn't..." "Oh, actually that kind of worked "and no one laughed at me." Or, you know, I remember telling people when I wanted to launch my business, like, "What? "You're gonna sell cod liver oil?" "It's not cod liver oil, it's fish oil." "What, at like down the market, "like, in Brighton?" I was like, "No, "I mean that's fine."- Totally East End, London.- Yeah. I'm gonna start talking like that. And then this sort of, yeah, like, what the hell? But I just, I knew it was the right thing. I knew it was a good idea and I just thought, "Well, screw you." 'Cause, you know, in your head, I'm down the market with a sheepskin coat on trying to flog cod liver oil. In my head it's this.- Yeah.- But it was 10 years ago.- Yeah.- And you just, you know-- Build on that.- Build on that. So, yeah, I think with that fear, that is a fear that is really in your control. That fear of failure and make the fear of regretting not doing it stronger.- Yeah. And ask yourself what the payoff is of staying where you are.- Yeah.- And if that is worth not doing it, because normally, like for me, it would just be, well, I just get to be safe. But like life isn't really for that.- Yeah.- So you just kind of have to- Yeah.- go off the diving board and just see what happens.- Yeah.- And you could do something big, like a retreat or a scuba dive.- Yeah.- Or it could be something small.- Yeah.- Like smaller fears that I've had recently, setting boundaries with friends and voicing that and before I just wouldn't, or in a difficult situation in public where I want a voice that I don't think what's going on is right. But I wouldn't normally.- Yeah.- Things like that where there's a bit of fear and then after you've done it you've stuck true to yourself. There's smaller things you can do to practise.- Yeah. Dipping your toe into, "I'm gonna fear something, I'm gonna do it anyway." And then you can work up to the big stuff.- Yeah. Definitely, 'cause it is something... And I think those big things, like, for me, the scuba diving and you the retreat, those are really good. So if you can find one of those and work towards that, I think that's really life-changing. But like you say, just those little things that you're scared of doing. There's a lady, I don't know her name, but I stumbled across her on a podcast, who forces herself to do, I think she's done a hundred things she's terrified of and now she's sort of made a whole career out of it and doing talks on it, which is, you know, brilliant. And I'm not quite into, you know, that's the step too far for me to sort of spend my time finding things I'm terrified of and forcing myself to do them.- Right. But just... Well, like this.- This, yeah.- We could easily have not done this. I can think of a million reasons not to. I don't have time.- Yeah.- You know, all those things.- Yeah.- Blah, blah blah. But-- It'll boost confidence.- Yeah.- Yeah.- What's that one thing we were gonna talk about and you had a lovely analogy about the bow and arrow. So some people said,- Mm.- I actually fear success.- Yes.- What if I'm successful?- Yeah. I actually have a lot to say on this subject. It's actually a lot about being seen for me; people's perspective. So, "Oh, who does she thinks she is being all successful." "Who does she think she is being..." 'Cause there's just this shame that comes with somebody actually standing up and saying, "I've done a really good job at this," or "I feel successful at this," or "Look at this thing I've created." You always are worried that someone's gonna shame you and be like, "Oh right. "Someone else can do it better" or "You think that's good, look at this." And I think the fear of success for me was always the, letting go of my old identity 'cause I didn't know what the new identity was gonna be. And we could get... That's a whole other subject in itself, but sort of letting go of all of those limiting beliefs. You do have a bit of a moment where you're like, well, now I don't know who I am, so I've shed my old shell and I'm some naked crab looking for my new shell. That's kind of what it feels like. So it feels quite vulnerable to be successful at something you haven't done before. Because then you're like, "Well, this is new and now I'm winging it." So you're kind of setting yourself up for a lot of people to have opinions, a lot of people to see you. So I can understand why...- Right. Yes.- I mean that's coming from my perspective, maybe it's a different fear,- Yeah.- but that's what comes to-- Drawing attention to yourself.- Yeah. And if you've spent your life trying to hide, like I literally spent my life trying to be smaller. So if you put it in that perspective, when you are then sort of presenting yourself as someone that wants all these, you know, success in your career, success in your relationships, it does take a bit of pushing past some fear barriers. And an analogy that my coach told me once was, "To pull through fear, "you kind of have to go backwards a little bit, "like a bow and arrow." So as you're pulling back, you're kind of looking back and thinking, "What's stopping me?" Then you leap forward quite a lot. And then it can be sort of scuba diving and then suddenly you are like, "This place doesn't feel recognisable for me. "I don't know what I'm doing. "Oh my God, this feels really weird." And then you might find that you take a step back because you're like, "Actually my old life was more comfortable." So, you know, some people, the analogy of when people win lots of money and then lose it, it's that same thing of, "I can't hold this, "this feeling, this sensation of being successful. "I can't hold this new life. "I can't hold this new identity. "This all feels too new, too scary, too uncomfortable. "Let me just go back into my hole "where I felt safe and hidden." And that's a very normal process of like, so if you do take a step into something scary and then you hibernate for a week afterwards, that's actually quite normal.- Mm-hmm.- It's just part of the process of you accepting this new feeling of like, "Oh, I've spent my life telling myself I couldn't do that. "And now I can, why do I feel so depressed?" 'It's probably 'cause I wasted so many years worrying about it.- Yeah.- Those sorts of things come up.- Yeah. Yeah, and I think that kind of drawing a bit of attention to yourself or that kind of, who do you think you are, kind of piece is, I think, and we're particularly bad at that in this country, I think.- Yeah.- You know, when people are successful, people like to sort of shoot you down a bit. It's like put you back in your box.- I highly recommend bragging to your... Like saying, "Do you mind if I have space "to brag for a sec?"- Oh, I like that.- I do that with my friends. And then we'll just say, "Yeah." And then I'll say, "Now you brag. "What have you done today "that's cool?"- I like that.- Just 'cause it gives the space for it.- That is cool.- Yeah. 'Cause it's... We should. If we're successful at something.- Yeah, you're right. Yeah.- And I know that you're getting better at it, but working with you, you are very much onto the next thing now, we've done that, and it's like, look at this that you've just built and you're already thinking- I know.- about the... Which is entrepreneurial but-- Well, it's also being brought up in the '70s, where you are told not to show off.- Yeah.- And stop showing off.- Right.- And, you know, don't, yeah, don't be bigheaded and all those things. So that-- And I think it's the beliefs, like you just said, there was that belief, stop showing off. It's like built in.- Yeah. Yeah, and I think that, I think maybe there's also fear with people if they become successful at something is then heavily caveating this, "This is not me." But, you know, will my partner still be the right partner for me and my friends?- Yes.- And that whole circle- Yes- of now I've changed.- Oh yeah. And they're still in that bit. Again, husband this is not about you.- Yeah, boyfriend,- Not at all.- this is not about you.- Yeah.- Yeah. But I know people have that.- Yeah.- And that's maybe when a couple of the people have said that. I don't know if that's a bit of that going on, but it's, I've moved into this and now do I need to leave you behind? And that's quite frightening.- That is frightening. Yeah, and it goes back to that pact thing that you were talking about. It's like inherent in us to want to be safe and be within the pack. So if people start to reject you or you start to think, "Are these people for me?"- Yeah.- That's a scary realisation. And that's when, like you're gonna feel that.- That's scary.- Let me just sink back into where I was,- Yeah, I'll just go back.- it was easier.- Well, and we love routine humans, don't we? We love our little, you know... Most of us have routines whether we realise it or not.- Yeah.- The things we like to do and things we fall into when we're sad or stressed or we have our comforting things that we do.- Yeah.- Yeah.- But I think it's about being alive.- That's it.- You can't-- That's exactly.- You may as well be in a comfortable coffin.- Yeah. Nice.- If you don't push yourself. Do you know what I mean?- Get comfy in your coffin.- You are alive, but you're just stuck in your comfortable coffin. It's like, to feel alive we have to...- Yeah.- And as humans, change is literally inevitable. If we try and stay where we are, trust me, I've gone over this multiple times in my head of trying to even keep my body the same.- Yeah.- Keep my mind the same. Keep everything the same. If you do that, you lose out on so much joy and aliveness and actually finding people that are for you and finding your purpose even, you halt all of that if you try and keep yourselves in the same place.- Yeah.- Because we're not meant to, we're meant to have goals.- No. No. Well, there's that cheesy saying or whatever it is that you see about ships are safe and harbours but...- Yes. I don't know that...- You know what I mean?- I know what they mean.- But they're not built- We'll put it up- to sit in an harbour.- on the screen now.- Yeah. We'll put it up on the screen now.- For those who are watching.- Yeah.- Yeah.- But you're right. And that, again, with the scuba diving thing and a lot of, you know, stuff we do at work is, I like feeling alive and excited and a little bit of scared actually is not a bad thing. That sort of nervous buzzy... I love feeling like that.- Yeah.- And you definitely get that when you do something that's a bit scary. I mean, it's an adrenaline rush on a physical level.- It's is.- but it's also, you feel alive when you're doing something and... Yeah, and as I'm getting older, I'm noticing it more and more. 'Cause I think, well, you know, hopefully I'll be in good physical health, but there'll be a point where I won't be able to do some stuff.- Hmm.- So I wanna do it now. And I feel more ambitious than ever- Hmm.- than even when I was your age. And I was pretty ambitious when I was your age. But I now am like, okay, we're really... I feel like we can do loads now because I think, I guess I got comfortable with, "Okay, I am scared of that but I'm gonna do it.- Yeah. Like this podcast.- Like this podcast. So, yeah, that's what we wanna inspire some people listening to do is just think of that little thing and you think, "Well, I really wanna do that, "but I'm too scared." And do it.- Yeah.- And tell us what it is.- Yes. Do tell us what it is.- We could do a little debrief, wrap up.- A little outro, wrap up.- Yeah.- I could ask you my question.- Yes, go for it.- I've forgotten what it is. I'm sorry. You did prep me with it and I forgot it now.

- I did as well. Well, this is a question I'm gonna ask any guest that I have on the show and we're gonna have lots of very exciting and interesting people. And, Liv, you are gonna be a regular for sure. 'Cause you've got: 6:25

A, you're brilliant to chat to, but you've got a lot to share. A lot, a lot, a lot to share.- I do.- And that you can... Yeah. You've got a lot of wisdom.- Thanks. I'd love to come back.- Well, please come back. So this is a question I'm gonna ask everybody in Podcasty style.- Yeah. Mm-hmm. So my question, well, there's two, so I might ask them both- Right.- and then we can decide.- Hit me.- Yeah, go for it.- Yeah.- Test them out. Test the waters.- So one of them, which is linked to what we've just discussed, is if you could do anything without fear of what others would think of you, what would it be?- Ooh. Do you know what, it's something around performing. I actually quite like entertaining people and I've always wanted to do dancing, but I always tell myself, "No, I've got two left feet." I did ballet when I was younger and the ballet instructor took my mom aside and said, "I think you might need to find her another hobby." 'Cause I was the one that was kind of like, at the back trying to carry on. And maybe ballet wasn't my thing. But I find so much joy out of dancing and I'd love to do it. I'd love to go to a class, but it petrifies me. 'Cause I'd be a beginner.- Mm-hmm.- I'd probably be at the back. People would know what they're doing. Even something like street dance, something like that. I'd love to do it. So I will. Hold me accountable, everybody.- I was gonna say, I think you should do that. And also both my daughters do ballet and my nearly 18-year-old started when she was three and we could have had a similar conversation about that. But her ballet teacher was obviously better than your ballet teacher because she was three and, you know, you're not that coordinated and now she's grade eight ballerina and she dances on point shoes and-- Bless her.- Do you know what I mean?- Yeah.- So ignore your ballet teacher.- I'm gonna ignore her.- Not a good ballet teacher.- Yeah. Yeah.- And I've seen you dance and you're a good dancer.

- On the wedding dance floor. A bit of a backstory: 6:50

Harley got married, one of our team members.- Yes.- Me and you were the only ones on the dance floor that night.- Yes.- Yeah.- We were good.- We were good.- Yeah. So I think you should do that.- Okay, great. Well, hold me accountable, everybody, if you're listening.- I love performing as well. I wanted to be an actress when I was a kid.- I think you can be a comedian as well.- And a few friends have said, "Oh, you should do standup comedy." Now that is terrifying.- That is 'cause you have to-- Now that's the ultimate terror.- So is that something that you want me to hold you accountable too?- So maybe...- No. No.- Okay.- Maybe one day.- All right.- Okay. So that's a good answer. I Like that. So my next question is, if you could start a business or a venture.- Oh, okay.- Could be writing a book or a screenplay or starting something- Different. that, you know... And you knew success would be guaranteed.- Wow.- So all the fear of failure is completely removed. What would it be?- That's a good question. I would love... I don't really know what the business would be, but I pride myself on being a sensitive person. I'm being very thoughtful and feeling, I cry a happy cry, I sad cry. I just feel everything. I'd love to create something where people felt like they belonged in that sort of, whether it's teaching people how to bring that into business, how they lead, how they manage people. I don't know. Something along those lines. That's what comes to mind, it's a bit nothingy but...- No, it's not nothingy.- Yeah. Something around helping people feel more in a world that tells you not to feel.- Mm.- That would be my business.- Nice.- Yeah.- I like it.- Cool.- Cool. So how should we wrap this up? Should I do a little-- Good question?- Yeah.- This is new for us.- Yeah.- I think we can wrap it up by saying, if you're watching on YouTube please subscribe.- Yes.- If you're listening, give us a little rating.- Yeah.- Let us know what you thought.- And follow...- And follow us on TikTok and Instagram because we will be posting on there. Yeah, subscribe to the pod. We're a bit out of practise of this.- Yeah.- But if you also let us know what your fear is that you're gonna break through.- Yeah, that's a good one. Maybe leave that in a comment.- Leave it in a comment below if you watching.- On YouTube or anywhere, right?- Yeah.- So yeah, so all the usual, follow us, like us.- Subscribe.- Subscribe. Do all the likings and subscribings. You can go to our website, barebiology.com. We have a really good newsletter. We don't spam you with crap 'cause that's not our style. And yeah,- Yeah.- see you on the next one.- Bye.