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The Mel Lawson Show
I'm Mel Lawson, mum of 3, Founder and CEO of Bare Biology (a UK supplement brand). Basically, we talk about life. From psychology and health to self-development and spirituality, and much more. We have experts, we have fascinating guests, and we talk in a very open and honest way. We share our vulnerabilities and hope to entertain and inspire you, maybe make you laugh, and possibly help you experience some ‘aha’ moments along the way.
The Mel Lawson Show
How To Think Like An Olympian | With Leon Taylor | The Mel Lawson Show
This episode's guest is Leon Taylor, an Olympic silver medalist who has gone on to commentate for the BBC, mentor Olympic and Paralympic athletes and speak at a TEDx talk viewed by millions. He also coached me to run the Brighton half marathon (yes, half. I hate running).
You don't have to be an Olympic athlete to think like one. There’s something for everyone in this chat. Even if high-performance sport isn’t your thing, we’re all trying to get better at something. There are some great parenting tips too.
I hope it inspires you just enough to look at one area of your life you’d like to improve. I always find my chats with Leon super energising.
Melanie.
Find more from Leon here.
This episode is sponsored by my family-owned UK supplement company Bare Biology.
Welcome to this episode of the Mel Lawson Show. I'm very honoured to have an Olympic medalist here as my guest today, leon Taylor, who is also a friend of mine and our first male guest on the show. So welcome, leon. Thanks, mel, lovely to be here coming along. I'm not going to do the intro, because I want I think people want to hear your amazing story from you. So how did you become an Olympic medalist?
Speaker 2:Well, by accident. Well there's. I guess there's some truth in that. I guess the interesting thing is that we all have dreams when we're very young, you know become an astronaut, become an entrepreneur, become a YouTuber. I'm not sure what the latest dreams are For me. I remember clearly all have dreams when we're very young, you know become an astronaut, become an entrepreneur, become a youtuber. I'm not sure what their latest dreams are for me.
Speaker 2:I remember clearly watching the olympic games on the tv when I was just six years old. Now, not really seen as many sports as there was and, for example, I'd never heard of so many countries. You know there's over 200 countries that compete in the olympic games. So I'm six, only knew about four. I know about eight now maybe. So I'm glued to the screen. There's so much action and there's a moment that I remember so clearly. If I close my eyes I can see it vividly now and it's daily thompson receiving his gold. You're nodding and I'm sure many of the listeners and viewers will remember daily thompson. And if you don't know Daley Thompson, google him or YouTube, because he is an incredible athlete, a Team GB legend.
Speaker 2:And of course, I'm six. I don't know any of this, I'm just watching this man who's won the gold in the decathlon, so arguably the world's greatest athletes. You've got 10 events to do. He's won it in fine style. He stood on the podium and the union flag is being raised, god Save the Queen is being played and he's got the gold medal around his neck and he's stood there. And I won't demo because of where we are, but he's got his arms behind his back and he's whistling. So I'm sat on the edge of the couch, my dad's next to me. Dad, dad, why is that man whistling?
Speaker 2:My dad thinks for a moment and he just says well, I think he might be trying to stop himself from crying, and I immediately put my hands in my hand and go oh no, is he in trouble with his mum and dad, like me?
Speaker 1:Oh, that's so cute.
Speaker 2:And my dad says no, no, no, leon, they can be overcome with emotion. They can begin to cry. Of course I'm six. I'm profoundly confused. And then my dad, who's not been trained in performance psychology or inspirational speaking or anything like that, says a throwaway comment to me the reason why Daley Thompson is so happy is because when you're a sports person, there is nothing greater than the Olympic Games. And my response was simple I want to go, I want to go, I want to go. And I guess the interesting thing is there's lots of dreams and aspirations set.
Speaker 2:But I guess for me the difference certainly was my behaviours changed completely after that. So I was hyperactive, drove my parents up the wall. That's why I was so into sport. We can talk more about that later. But the behaviors that changed the first thing was I would say to my dad every few weeks, dad, when are the olympic games back on again? And he'd have to explain four years and that's a long time when you're six. But then, for example, I would get the from Santa, the Guinness Book of World Records for Christmas and I would in my best handwriting, which wasn't particularly good, write down my fastest swimming time next to the world record holder, my best gymnastic score, any other sport that I was embarking at the time, and that became the thing for me, right. It was like the Olympic Games are so special and it was that moment and that inspiration or moment, you know, that age, really impressionable and I was a pain in the backside, you know I had lots of things going on. It wasn't particularly easy to manage. My parents took me to the family doctor when I was very young to see if there's anything wrong with me and the family doctor said well, I'm sorry, mr and Mrs Taylor, you've got a problem child and if you can't cope with him maybe we can sedate him. Or maybe they were offered sedatives, I'm not sure what the deal was. Either way, they didn't take that option and they decided to attempt to tire me out and that's how my activity of sport came in, so coupled with that moment of the Olympic Games and being hyperactive and just loving being involved in physical movement. That was my medicine. Physical movement led me to try every sport possible.
Speaker 2:I was born in Cheltenham, in Gloucestershire. I tried every sport. Swimming was one of my first loves because I was taken to the pool to kind of splash around, you know, which was just like exhilarating for me. Similar time, mother and baby, baby gymnastics, which led to then kind of like tumble tots and you know, through the week. So then you've got like love of water lights rolling around, somersaulting. You know, you can see how.
Speaker 2:When I was given the opportunity, do you want to try, yes, diving. I went off try diving and I could actually do quite a lot of the skills that were required. You know somersault, you know, do a handstand, all of these things that lend us, because divers aren't good swimmers. You just need to be able to swim to the side. That's as far as it goes. Right, divers and gymnasts, trampolinists, acrobats, that's the kind of area we're playing in and I like the fact and I think it lent itself to my hyperactivity.
Speaker 2:You know, adhd wasn't invented when I was diagnosed as a problem child, but I'm pretty sure that there, you know, that would have been a very, um, accurate diagnosis. And, uh, what I found is team sports didn't suit me because there was too much waiting around, no one passed me the ball, I lost concentration and I was off playing havoc, whereas when he's standing on the end of a diving board, you know it's. You know you're grimacing as I'm about to describe how dangerous it is. Right, it doesn't even need to be high and it's dangerous because if you hit the diving board you're going to injure yourself if you belly flop, and those of you have not hit the water from any height won't really know.
Speaker 2:You think water's soft. It's not water. It's like running into a brick wall from the 10 meter board. You know which? For the uh, everyone. If you want to do a little bit of visualization, just imagine, close your eyes. If you want a double decker bus, which is pretty high, put another double decker bus on top of that and then a family-sized car on top of both of the buses and that's a 10 meter board. So when you throw yourself off that, as I did, from hours and hours and hours a day, six, seven days a week, seven hours a day, hitting the water at over 35 miles an hour, you know you're risking, you know you didn't start when I was eight.
Speaker 2:You know you kind of build the progression, but you need well, it's handy to have hyper focus when you're in situations like that, and I think my attribution kind of you know, attentional thing lent itself to that, because I wasn't waiting for the ball to come to me.
Speaker 2:I was there on the end of the board and if I wasn't concentrating then I'd really hurt myself and that was really compelling for me, and not being able to do things that other people couldn't do or that were really outside of my comfort zone were deeply satisfying and intrinsically rewarding for me. And then I was competitive and that all kind of lent itself to oh how, you know, how can I do in this one and can I hold my nerve under pressure? Because diving is one of those sports where it's not your best throw, like it is in javelin, or you get a no jump in the long jump. It's like every dive counts. So there's that element of pressure within the competition and the sport. So, yeah, it's sadistic really, isn't it? When you think about it, it's not the uh, not what everyone might choose to do for a living yes, oh, my god.
Speaker 1:Um. So for context, for people who don't know you, what, um? Because you are an olympic medalist. So when did you win your Olympic medal? And yeah, for what? Sure, yeah, so my yeah.
Speaker 2:So my guess my sporting adventure within that sport started when I was eight and then by the time I was 11 I was the best in the country for my age group. And then junior Europeans at 14 men's team at 16, 18 firstic games way back in 1996 when I was doing my a levels at the same time. Sydney olympic games in 2000, narrowly missed out on a medal. And then athens 2004, pretty much 20 years to the day that I watched daly thompson on the tv I stood on the podium and peter waterfield and I won british diving's first's first Olympic medal in 44 years and that was in the men's 10 meter synchronized event. So two people same time off that incredibly high diving board, and then I was sixth place in the individual event. So over my career I won medals in all the major championships and you know that one, the Olympic medal, is the, I guess, guess one of the many highlights, but from a results point of view would be the most. Um, yeah, held in the highest regard.
Speaker 1:I mean it is very impressive. I remember when I first met you and I was in awe of you because I and I think most people are in awe of athletes, but Olympic athletes particularly, because we just can't wrap our heads around what it must take and because that sort of margin of motor racing, right, it must be. So I can't even imagine how hideous it must be to just miss out and how so it's the winning but it's also the losing by such a small margin. And we're going to talk about you and I love talking about you know, doing the hard things, and we're going to talk about that um a lot. But I think most people just think how, what are you born with? This um special ability or a particular type of brain? What, what is it about you? Do you think that meant that you got, got to where you got to?
Speaker 2:where to start with. That it's interesting, isn't it? So I hold many people in high regard for different things, and the behaviours and attributes needed to become the very best in the world in a field as a specialist are quite a unique collection, right? So there's um, this is the hard thing about being an athlete, and I think this is really interesting for everyone. When, when you're an athlete kind of for me, it was organic, so I was like, oh, this is fun, I love to do this and then you start taking it seriously, then it goes tits up, right. So you think, oh, my god, this is the most important thing.
Speaker 2:My identity is wrapped up in this. If I don't win this medal, then I'm a'm a complete failure. Everyone's going to. You know, you've got all of this going on, which is completely unhealthy, so there's lots of dangers involved in that, how the kind of it lends itself to your judge by your results and you become your results, and that's all something to unpick, which I have and took great delight in unpicking that but in order to show up every day and train for seven hours that but in order to show up every day and train for seven hours. People can't handle that because it's too hard and too boring. Now, diving isn't boring my swimming friends, that's boring. I love to swim, obviously, and I can, you know. Take that, um, you know, and I still enjoy swimming now. But following a black line up and down is really boring and those who can do that are incredible.
Speaker 2:But the time spent doing the same thing for no guarantees, for no, in a sport like diving, in many sports, you know, even if you do make it to olympic medalists, which I'm very grateful and fortunate to have, you know there's. You know you still have to earn a living. You know I was able to be in a in an era where I was given a monthly grant so I could pay my rent, I could put food on the table and I was very fortunate to have the support of the National Lottery which gave me access to physiotherapists, sports scientists, nutritionists. I could travel and compete for my country and go after my dreams. But as soon as you underperform or you're injured, then obviously the resources go elsewhere. So there's no, like you know, guarantees. The only guarantee is that there's no guarantees. You know guarantees, the only guarantee is that there's no guarantees.
Speaker 2:I think that applies to us all in in many ways, but when it comes down to you know that um kind of um risk, if you like, if this might not work.
Speaker 2:And then why am I doing it? People go well, I've got to get a job, I've got to go to university, I've got to do this, I've got this, you know, I've got to do this, I've got this, you know, I've got to. You know prioritise. But to be so focused on how far can I take this like the intrinsic reward of competing, of seeing how good one can be. But then, of course, the world then needs to revolve around you. So you need to adopt behaviours of being very self-centred. That's not really selfish, but it can be viewed as selfish. Can you come to my wedding? No, because I'm competing. Can you come to my grandmother's funeral? No, can you, you know? So it was just this kind of filter of no, because I've got to do this. Is it going to make the proverbial boat go faster in my case? Is it going to impact me? So you're making all these decisions and the world revolves around you because you've got people at the highest level as you move up through the ranks looking at you nutritionally, psychology, physiotherapy, biomechanical analysis. You've got coaches, you've got all these people input into you and then one day it goes, you're done, and then the world doesn't revolve around you and all of those behaviors that you're used to relying on and displaying it can start to turn you inside out and that's why many athletes suffer with, you know, mental health issues, as you know, I have. You know, during my career I suffered as well with a period of retrospectively diagnosis depression, because you're tough and people view you as an olympic athlete, as like you're, you know, indestructible such a. How do you do that? How do you train all those hours? How do you perform under pressure? And you're still a human being underneath and you've still got. You know, wherever you go, there you are and what you're sometimes sold as as an athlete and it's not explicit, but you can like when you win the whatever it is world cup olympic medal, you'll be happy, and of course you do. And then there's this massive like vacuum of like. Is this? It is this what I risked it all for and I now still hear me with the still insecurities, the imposter syndromes, all of the normal human stuff running around my system. And this medal means a lot, but actually I need to now do something else. And then that future focus of what's next, what's next, what's next? And you're chasing and chasing.
Speaker 2:You see a lot in in the world of sports specifically, where people make comebacks successful or otherwise, because they just don't know what to do, and that drive and determination, and it's kind of almost running away from something rather than towards, and that's the danger. So, to answer very long with your question, I think it's a combination. So there's circumstance, there's trauma that influences it, there's the hyperactivity stuff. For me, you see a lot of athletes who have the neurodiverse thing going on, whatever it might be that can lend itself. So is it brain? Maybe a bit. Is it nurture 100?
Speaker 2:You know I, my mum and dad, needed to try and manage me, so they put me in structured situations where I could bounce around off the walls and not cause too much harm, basically, you know, and pursue things that were deeply gratifying to me. So it's interesting, right, isn't it? Because there isn't like a recipe, it's a. It's always a blend and a combination, but it's definitely driven by an internal kind of thing, and that can be to get away from something because you're not happy, because you're chasing something, or it can be different and you know that's. Uh, yeah, that's an interesting thing to delve into, because every person, obviously we're all as unique as our thumbprint, aren't we?
Speaker 1:and can you? Was there a point when you were a teenager, I guess, when you were starting to, when you said you know you were then the best in the country, and was there a moment that you remember where your brain flicked into? Oh, actually, this is really serious now, and did it feel really pressured, or was there a moment? Was it gradual?
Speaker 2:I think it's gradual, it's quite insidious really, because you don't really notice it happening and then suddenly you realize, through normally a massive mess up, that you've been getting it all wrong. You know, and I think those are the learnings, that that you need to, that not you need to, but you get to to, uh, to respond to. So I remember my second olympic games. You're going into to sydney olympic games incredible, peter and I uh, uh, you know ranked if you're not really ranked in diving, but we're there, all there about, so we're a medal hope you know, going into those olympic games and because it's my second olympic games, I was like, right, well, I've got this.
Speaker 2:I'm not gonna even enjoy this because I'm so focused and so serious. You know, I'm just gonna not interact with the other athletes, because they're doing their thing, I'm doing mine. I'm just gonna be there to focus, because all I'm going to do is win a medal, right. So that was the focus, that was the narrative, that was a thing, and it was all based on this outcome that, invariably, you can't control. So you know where the story's going. And it became all about winning this medal and everything was going to be great. Then we're going to be the first medalist in 40 years. Blah, blah, blah. And then we came fourth by the narrowest of margins. Back to your intro. How do you deal with that? Well, not very well, when that's all you're focused on and that's what you start with.
Speaker 2:And then, a year later, I had to undergo reconstructive shoulder surgery because I'd managed to ignore my pain in my shoulder successfully, because I was being tough. Pain is weakness, leaving the body and other nonsense that I was subscribing to Quite maturistic at that time. In sport, you know, looking at how tough you can be, don't show any weakness, all that kind of stuff. And well, there you go. Now you're in the right mess reconstructive shoulder surgery, given a 30 chance of making it back and make it back. Six months of rehabilitation, back into the water. Things aren't working. Second surgery if you don't have the second surgery, you'll never dive again. But if you do have it, not quite sure, you've got a few months to get back. If you don't get back your surgery, you'll never die again. But if you do have it, not quite sure, you've got a few months to get back. If you don't get back, your funding is going to be taken. Boom, straight down the spiral into depression. Not speaking to my friends, not speaking to my family. I'm dealing with this. I'm tough. I've got this Lying to my sports psychologist. That was fine. Let's focus on performance. 6, 6.1% body fat, underweight, like not obsessing over weight, you know, disordered eating, in a right mess basically.
Speaker 2:And for me there was, you know, a series of things that kind of unfolded and happened and kind of I, you know, had that realization that you know I've got it. I've got it all wrong. I mean, there's a moment where I made it back onto the team and it was my mentor Foley, who was also Australian but he was part of the national performance director. But I aspired to him because he competed at the Olympic Games, you know, and he was just an incredible person.
Speaker 2:I remember being at my lowest ebb and I'm stood on the poolside in in Seville. I just competed poorly at the World Cup. I'd scraped back onto the team. I'd recovered from these two surgeries the shoulders, okay, that you know, just been like. Well, the thing was I at that moment in time I'd decided that that was it, I'm done, I can't do it. I've done everything and nothing's worked. So the tears are flowing. You know, first time standing there crying on poolside since I was like 11 or something, you know, this moment, head shaking, you know I'm done.
Speaker 2:And I remember the. The point is he gently placed his hand on my, my shoulder. He didn't give me advice, he didn't console me, he just went hey, leon, remind me why you do this sport it's gonna be a shame and through the tears, because I enjoy it. And of course you kind of say that. And then you know, that moment I was like, the reason I chose this sport over all the others is because I enjoyed it.
Speaker 2:The reason I've quote unquote sacrificed all of the things is because I enjoy doing the thing and I'd lost the focus so much on the outcomes, of results the weight loss, the this, the that, the details that I, you know, needed to like. Look up from obsessing over the day-to-day and these things. They go well. What's it all about? My enjoyment? Well, and then he, you know he. His second question was why haven't I seen you smile for the past eight months? So I made one change when I went back to training and, uh, you know, bearing in mind this is over 20 years ago, and I put a massive fake smile on my face for the first time in hair right and I didn't know at the time that I do now.
Speaker 2:Physiology, emotion, is two-way street. If you hold a smile for long enough, after a while the person opposite you start smiling and then that fake smile turns into a real smile. Neurochemicals boom in your brain. Guess what happens? You totally reverse that depressive run into like oh, actually I do enjoy this. And then very quickly, after a few days, back at training.
Speaker 2:Day off, back to training for three weeks until the next major happened to be the commonwealth games home commonwealth games in manchester, and I narrowly missed out on a medal in that event, nearly missing the gold to peter who won the individual gold, and and that negative spiral I was stuck in went the other way and that was the the moment that it changed. And then, from that point, that learning was I don't care about the outcomes. Obviously I'm judged by them and obviously they're important, but I don't care about things. I can't control them. What can I control? Performance, but what leads you to performance process. So what am I going to do every day? Well, I'm going to put a smile on my face, even when it's hard, in fact, especially when it's hard. Why? Because that's going to put me in the right state in order to do the required training. When things go, you know, wrong or incorrectly, whether I'm not going to beat myself up. Because what's the point? What's the point in internally punishing myself for something that's already happened and it's okay, well, fine. Well, what did I learn? What am I going to do differently next time?
Speaker 2:And that process, approach, you know, and that performance was when I got to the Olympic Games in Athens. All we were doing was just having a laugh. We were just like Peter and I were just great teammates. The rest of the team even though if Peter and I didn't win a medal on day one of those Olympic Games, the whole sports funding would have been cut completely. Every single person athlete, coach, any official within British diving was implicitly looking at us, going good luck, and they weren't saying don't mess up, because the sport's going to be completely screwed. But that's how it was. And we took all of that on because it was like well, I can't control any of that Process, process, process, no-transcript. I'm on the other side now as, uh, well, much easier talking about it, but I'm behind a microphone today, so this is more familiar for me these days as I get to do the commentary for the bbc covering the major championships including the olympic games, which I'm excited about doing this year I love your story.
Speaker 1:I was going to ask you. What was I going to ask you? Yes, when you were, you were saying then about I know the smile thing because you've taught me that and well, we can talk about that. But yeah, I still, I still deploy that le tool of the forced smile sometimes, do it. I'm trying not to scream at my kids like I do there. I'm doing a big fake smile right now like I really love you. Things then, like meditation, for example, or not for mindset.
Speaker 2:Not meditation as such. So the exploration with the sports psychology for me around that time was massively individualization. So I wasn't visualizing myself standing on the podium, I was visualizing myself performing each of the dives to the best of my ability, whether that was in the individual event or whether it was in the synchronized event. And what you're doing with visual imagery, rather than just visualization, is that you cite sound, smells, colors, tastes, as much as you can to take yourself in the moment. And as you and I are both big fans of the Huberman Lab podcast, andrew hooberman does a big, uh long form if you're up for it, listeners and viewers into visualization and how it works right.
Speaker 2:So this is, you know, this isn't like oh yeah, visualize myself and I'm going to be fine. This is actually scientifically proven to make a huge difference and all high performers do visualization. It makes a big difference. So for me, working on that as a skill, because in diving the intensity is incredible. So when I'm performing a dive in training there's like 20 people in the arena. When it's a national competition, there's a few hundred and there's 15 000 in the olympic games when it counts right. And I'm wearing a pair of budgie smugglers, so I don't mind the budgie smugglers but imagine the intensity.
Speaker 1:So how do you, how do you do the pressure training where you can't? I couldn't.
Speaker 2:So I don't mind the budgie smugglers, but imagine the intensity. So how do you, how do you do the pressure training where you can't? I couldn't get, I couldn't get 100 people to watch me at training, let alone 15 000 to put that vote. But you can go there with your mind's eye unconscious mind can't tell, really tell the difference between something that is imagined vividly and there's something in reality. So I'd perform the dives to the best of my ability in athens before I got there, so thousands of times. So what it did, it gave me the ability or it gave me the opportunity or the reality of standing at the back of the diving board and not completely bricking it. Because if you get amygdala hijack, if you get sympathetic dominance which basically means fight, flight, freeze, completely normal in a high pressure situation, but that's useless. If you want to perform at the best of your ability, you want to be parasympathetic dominance. You know, rest, adjust, rejuvenate. All cool, calm and collective, like it's on the diving board relaxed, concentration, smiling at ease, no resistance, let the dive happen.
Speaker 1:Not which is like, yeah, yeah, freeze response, which is completely normal to hijack and all of that stuff, yeah so when you are standing on that board and I've stood on one of those boards and jumped off it, not on head first, um, and I hate that feeling of free falling, I really don't enjoy it you are genuinely calm. It's not a for the camera, it's because my knees would be knocking together and I'd be, you know, sweating and all those things yeah, yeah, yeah but you are genuinely 100, totally calm.
Speaker 1:Or is there an element of heart racing, knees knocking, yeah, there's an element of readiness.
Speaker 2:So the arousal curve, you know. So it's like uh, you know it's an inverted u, so am I pumped enough? And then am I too adrenalized or hyped up, so the knees knocking is over on this side. So it's not upside down. So you want to be like, so, at a low level competition, I probably need to be able to come on, you know not quite, so you need more pumped yeah otherwise it's going to not mean anything.
Speaker 2:I'm not going to hit that sweet spot at the olympic games. You're right, ramped right over here. So all of your breathing. So cue, control, relaxation, breathing techniques. I was exploring those back then. I've obviously done a lot more work on those now, but at the time there was, you know, this combination of visualization, breathing. You know, attention, direction. Am I paying attention to something I can control or am I being distracted by the 15 000 people in in the crowd, the judges, the Chinese, the Russians, all of the people that I can't do anything about? If my attention is there, then I'm going to be swinging myself towards the knee, knocking sympathetic, or am I just concentrating on my breathing? Am I smiling? Am I the interactions? You know the process. What am I doing next? You know, following this kind of like this video script in my head of then I do this, then I do that and I'm smiling, I'm relaxed, I'm joyful, you know, and you've been there, because it's a controlled environment. I'm not waiting to be past the hockey ball. The 10 meter board is there, the Pete's next to me, one, two, three go. You know, we know all of this. It's, it's fine-tuned, it's a closed skill. So it's a case of, like, remaining calm. So that isn't for the camera, that's for me and the best eyes I've ever done. I can't remember because I wasn't there. I'm so deep in the activity I've got amnesia. So I mean pure flow, right, flow state yeah, we can. You know the.
Speaker 2:The science out there shows what is that where you're. So I mean, for example, if you're um presenting, as I love, you know, one of the things I'm very passionate about is public speaking. So I mean the skill set that I've worked at. You know, we've all had the experience of it not going very well. Public speaking, if you've done it back at school or whatever.
Speaker 2:This is where, like, a four minute presentation feels like 40 minutes and you remember every word you said and every um, ah, ah, that you did Right. Whereas flow is, you know, um, a 40 minute uh presentation feels like four and you don't remember a thing. So this notion of flow state is getting out of your own way. It's the conscious mind just disappears and you're purely in the moment. The pain is, you can't track it, so you think, oh, I really want to remember how I did that world's most amazing diet and you can't remember it. So it's just those moments of altered state joy that are um incredible. And you can, you know, achieve that reading a book. Music there's, you know. There's not like, uh, the higher echelons of elite sport that get to play in that space, although it's slightly different in that setting. But you can lose yourself in a moment where time dilates.
Speaker 1:You don't know how long you've been doing something which is where, in meditation, that's the kind of ultimate goal. But that's that feat of nothingness, um which I've never quite achieved yet, but I'm still new on my meditation journey.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think that, um, it's a bit like being asleep you don't know that you're asleep until you wake up same as meditation. You don't know that you're in deep meditative place or state until you come out of it. I'm doing it. No, you're not because you're thinking you're doing it right.
Speaker 2:So it's the same, it's like oh what just happened, and I think those moments of richness are, uh yeah, are accessible in various endeavors and activities, and, you know, flowing sports being, you know, a great example of that and one thing you said to me when we chatted last week, which I really like and there's a lovely metaphor for life is people often ask you.
Speaker 1:You said how on earth do you jump off a 10-meter board?
Speaker 2:headfirst. And you said what did I say?
Speaker 1:You said well, you start by jumping off the side of the pool.
Speaker 2:Yeah, of course, yeah, yeah, yeah. So I mean, look, when you watch anything complex, whatever it is, in any setting, how the hell does someone do that? How do you deliver that presentation? How do you sit so calmly during a podcast? How do you start a business? How do you do this? How do you scale that and you break it down into its component parts?
Speaker 2:And so in diving, it's very simple you start on the side and you build your confidence there, so the knee knocking gets less. You become more familiar. Then you go to the one meter and then you start on the side and you build your confidence there, so the knee knocking gets less. You become more familiar. Then you go to the one meter and then you start to add in layers of complexity and then you start to bring in, if you need to and which is a wise thing the visualization, start to cross-reference things.
Speaker 2:We used to work in the dry land area, where you've got trampolines and video cameras on feedback, where you can see the movements. You're getting visual input that you're watching yourself back and go oh, okay, that's what I'm doing. And then your coach is going oh, you're moving your head, whereas before he said leon, you're moving your head and I go, no, I'm not, because I couldn't feel it so kinesthetically. I was unaware that I was moving my head. And then I see on the video I go, oh yeah, fair enough, okay, you've got me and then.
Speaker 2:But then when you've got like the visual, auditory kind of coaching and the kinesthetic awareness, and you're starting to layer these things in, you're starting to build the familiarity. So you go from you know consciously competent so you have to really think about what you're doing to unconsciously competent, where the dives just kind of, like the movement patterns, go in and then above that would be a whole new, different level, which would be the flow state where you're just so familiar with it, you're out of your own way completely, this notion of beginner's mind nothingness, meditative state, and you can't force yourself into it. It's a bit like going right, force yourself to go to sleep. You can't do it. You have to create the circumstances where you're likely to fall asleep, right same with flow, create the circumstances where you're likely to drop into flow. So before my dive and you see this with um, very, you know, six nations is on at the moment, isn't it in rugby? So anyone who's kicking for goal in rugby union will do a particular process right and and in, I had a pre-dive routine to stand at the back of the diving board and where my name is called I would throw down the towel that would use small towel called a chamois for those diving enthusiasts out there only when my name is called, and then the referee would announce the name and blow the whistle.
Speaker 2:As soon as I hear the whistle, I would inhale through the nose and slow exhale through the mouth and say to myself silently smile and believe. And then you would totally see, if you watch it on the, on the videos, my face would totally go to that place of zen, calm, whatever you want to describe it. And then I walk to the end and I'm on complete autopilot. Then I'm not thinking, oh, this needs to be good, I wonder if I can score eights on this. And then, when you know there's no thinking, it's just like following all the way through. So that pre-diverency. So I'm trying to create the conditions where I'm most likely to drop into flow, getting out of my own way. It doesn't always work, of course it doesn't, but there's that opportunity to to access it more frequently if you set those circumstances.
Speaker 1:I remember the first time I heard about sportsman visualizing was when Johnny Wilkinson was. I can't remember the year, it was around 2005.
Speaker 2:I want to say yeah, 2003, wasn't it when they won?
Speaker 1:yes, yes and he just very rarely missed and you'd see him just, and that's when the first time I ever heard about visualization. Um, someone obviously on the commentary said it. Um, and yeah, I think that huberman episode is a really good if people want to learn how to do it. Do you people talk a lot about manifesting? Do you think they're similar things or do you think they're different things?
Speaker 2:manifesting and visualizing yeah, I don't know enough about uh manifesting to speak confidently, but I guess you know the process is what you're doing.
Speaker 2:You're creating a future history, aren't you? So you're kind of what you're doing is firing the neural pathways by actually not actually um experience it. So I feel that there is a lot to be said. We're very powerful as human beings. We don't understand how much power we have and we get little glimpses of it, and I think the visualization is a good example of how powerful we can be and how we can guide our ability to, in my case, perform and think correctly or well under massive amounts of pressure, where if I didn't do that, preparation would just fall into pieces under the circumstances. So shows you how powerful you can be. And there's a lot of stuff around healing.
Speaker 2:I know we're enjoying a similar read at the moment. I think there's a huge amount of examples and powerful nature of how we can influence ourselves, you know, by our thoughts, feelings and emotions, and how we can guide those. You know I love playing with. You know my autonomic nervous system. You know with the ice, ice cold dips in the sea and all of the things like that. You know it's just an exploration of like what is, you know, within my sphere of influence, and I think we can influence a lot more through our thoughts and feelings. So it's a an area that I love to uh experiment in, and I'm really keen to continue to grow and learn.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I know we're both. Are you reading the?
Speaker 2:same book? Yeah.
Speaker 1:So I've talked about this before on this podcast. It's quite a meaty.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's heavy, isn't it Cool?
Speaker 1:I never get the name right Becoming Supernatural.
Speaker 2:Yes, it is Joe Dispenza.
Speaker 1:And what I find fascinating is that you can, and I know this from my own personal experience. So a couple of things that really stood out to me was one that you just said, which is you can influence even your physical body through thought, and you can heal yourself and you can do incredible things. You can also do the opposite.
Speaker 2:Yeah, which many of us fall into the patterns.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and we don't even know we're doing it. And I also listened to an interesting podcast this morning about therapy and how therapy can be actually really counterproductive, with sort of just constantly dwelling on things. And he talks about this if your brain has these sort of rehearsed embedded if that's a way to say it pathways where it just goes immediately back so, for example, right, not going to drink any more alcohol it makes me feel terrible. But you haven't changed the neural pathways so that when that temptation comes along or it's five o'clock that evening that you're able to go. No, I'm just not, I'm not going to have that. That sort of automatic process just kicks straight in and you're pretty powerless because you're not in control. So you have to change that piece first. I'm probably really hamming up this explanation, but when you've had maybe mental health problems or past traumas, and they're really and you go back to them quite a lot, and in talking therapy you talk about them a lot and actually that's not very helpful. You have to process things.
Speaker 1:But I've really noticed in the last few weeks since reading that book and practicing meditation that my brain very quickly can go straight into memories and it starts replaying them like a well rehearsed play or movie.
Speaker 1:And I was at an event last night and there was a lady there who really reminded me of my stepmother and my brain went straight in. So it's just like and here's another memory of something awful she did, and here's another one, and here's another one. And before I'd read this book, so I've gone on a massive tangent, but it will make sense I would have just gone. Well, that's just my memories and there's not much I can do. And you know, if I'd even thought about it and I was like, there it goes that's the right word and patterns, and I'm I love it so much, it's so interesting, and I think, especially physical health, that we think there's nothing we can do about that. You know there's certain lifestyle things, but if there's something quite serious even you think, well, that's that, then it's actually not the case you can do. We're so powerful, like you say, um, and I find that really exciting.
Speaker 2:I'm only at the beginning of that kind of journey yeah, I mean, we spend a lot of our time not here, don't we? So we're in the past, ruminating over what we did good or bad, often bad or in the future, worrying about stuff that hasn't happened yet, which may or may not have any truth to it. And when you begin to notice that that's the step one right, just begin to notice, like you just beautifully shared there about oh look, there's my, because you're not your thoughts.
Speaker 1:No.
Speaker 2:You're the awareness of your thoughts.
Speaker 2:Have a look at them. Are they serving you? What are they there for? You can choose how you respond to them, and that isn't always easy. I mean, I'm a father of a three-and-a-half-year-old and it's pretty tricky a lot of the time and massively exciting. I'd love to say that I can just go look, you know your thoughts, you're just the awareness of them when there's like a mega meltdown happening me or or my son ziggy, whichever, whichever was having the meltdown. But it's a practice, right. So it's beginning to notice and observe and then choosing to adjust if you can. You know there's various ways one can go about that and you know that's kind of been really rewarding for me in this.
Speaker 2:Uh, you know, if I completed my athletic career and I was in chronic pain my lower back the medical team told me if I was a horse, they'd they'd have to put me down. And uh, it was my lower back and you know wasn't looking good. I was only 30 and I was going to be in pain in my lower back for the rest of my life. And you know I made some clear decisions around then, some guidance around practicing yoga. Didn't really know what yoga was, um, but threw myself into it because that was the the? Um opportunity to heal my broken back or not not my broken back my broken body, particularly my chronic pain in my lower back. And that physical movement of yoga, of course, is a massive part, but there's lots of other elements to it as well.
Speaker 2:There's the philosophical approach, there's the pranayama, which is the breathing, there's this meditative approach and there's this being still and ultimately finding your way to being a much calmer place you know, there's lots of the physical, philosophical beginnings and interpretations of yoga are far and wide and for me it was incredible to uh, not be in a rush all the time, you know, to be able to step back and observe and be okay with the fact that my mind goes a million miles an hour. And meditation isn't about stopping that, it's just about observing. It's like standing by a busy road going wow, look at all that traffic, how interesting.
Speaker 2:And then coming back to a breath or whatever it might be, and for me it's just the noticing, observing, and when my mind wanders, if I'm in a meditative practice, I just go. Oh, there's my mind just off. Thoughts, feelings, past present wow, come back. It's just like putting your arm around a friend and going hey attention come back to.
Speaker 2:For me it's it's often anchored to the breath. I find that present moment sensation of the breath at tip of the nose or in the belly or wherever it might be, and I know, I know how to change my state using my breath. You know diaphragmatic nasal breathing, you know there's lots of breathing techniques one could do to calm the system. And so for me I have a system that is, if left unchecked, operates frantically and if really unchecked, darts about all over the place of my attention. So, in order for me to operate in the world, this relaxed concentration, it's like, okay, calming my nervous system, moving my body vigorously or otherwise, or calmly and at different points, in order to kind of fine-tune and find that space. And so the evolution, if you like, from being a performer and so and I still like to perform now, but I had this, uh, observer role and this kind of understanding of you know that I am not my thoughts, I'm in the awareness and it's just a really nice place to come back to because then you can manage whatever life is throwing at you a little bit more resourcefully.
Speaker 2:You know there's lots of challenging things happening to people all the time and you get drawn into it and then we move into patterns of overthinking, rumination, worrying about future, and we spend all our time there and we never spend any time going. Actually, am I okay now and I feel my one foot, in my case, on the floor, my hands here, you know, and when you practice that, that's all it takes to to settle down. And the more you do that, the more familiar your nervous system becomes with calming itself down and the more resilient you become to dealing with all of the uncertainties that well, life is just one big change, isn't it? So good luck trying to control all of that. Fruitless, really Futile, sorry.
Speaker 1:So you mentioned your son earlier. Yes, yes, and has. Did any of your? Has any of your training as an athlete served you well in parenthood? Have you been able to translate any of it into parenting? Because it's not an easy no, it's.
Speaker 2:Look, it's the hardest thing I've ever ever, I don't want to say had to do, but yeah yeah, I've been given the opportunity to step into because there's no getting out of it is there. I mean it's not like amazon oh, I don't want that product anymore where's the returns policy.
Speaker 2:I don't like this job, I'm gonna move. I don't like living here, I'm gonna yeah, it's like a very permanent thing. So I think, um, not so much an athlete, but now, but now as a coach and a mentor, which is the space I'm in now and how we've spent time together, and this ability to guide, support, challenge, influence all of that's coming into play as my role as a father. In the hardest context there is, where someone, for some reason, seems to be very strong, willed and defiant I don't know where he gets that from and it's and it's really tricky. So I think my um, the understanding of, of, uh, of guiding people, supporting you know that I've moved into now. When you're an athlete, everything revolves around you and the way that I transitioned was to make it about other people.
Speaker 2:So I've been mentoring athletes in different sports table boys table for years. It's deeply gratifying. I now work as a executive coach, presentation coach, speaker, presenter, yoga teacher. All of this stuff is about other people, you know inspiring, influencing, guiding, supporting, challenging others in order so they can go along their journey, and that, for me is, is my contribution, my purpose. All of that stuff, you know, was before it was all about my pursuit of quote unquote excellence, and now it's, you know, the interaction and contribution towards others.
Speaker 2:So this journey into parenthood has kind of been a reflection of that and I am choosing to lower my expectations of what I think is right and wrong and on me, and that's something that I wouldn't have done as an athlete, because it would have had to have been, you know, at this standard and I would have held myself and punished myself if I wasn't careful. So it's that, that freedom and desire to learn and explore and grow. One thing that has influenced me a lot is this acknowledgement of, you know, emotions and holding the space. And you know I was, you know, parented. My parents did the best job they could with me, but it was very like stop, no. I remember saying to my dad once, uh, when I was very young, or my dad recalled the story, he said uh, I don't like the name Leon, and my dad said why and I said because Leon's always in trouble, because I was difficult
Speaker 2:right and so this whole thing. So I'm very much aware of that in parenting. So there's there's lots of things I've learned through, you know, this growth mindset and various other things that I'm I'm aware of. But but I think for me the the biggest joy is watching Ziggy explore the world and they're just incredible at noticing like something falling off the door in the background, you know, and still managing to stay with the story that I'm telling. So Ziggy notices everything and for me it's. You know I watch him do these activities and no amount of instructional coaching is going to help. So left foot forward when you do this, lean forward, move your center of gravity like good luck. He's on his, you know, he's on his scooter and he's going off a big ramp in the skate park because he wants to. So my opportunity is to halt my state. So I show no signs of anxiety or nervousness. It's already making you nervous me telling the story, so you wouldn't be any good in this situation because I know.
Speaker 2:so I stand there totally calm, you know, concentrating on my breathing, because that's what he notices, because they notice everything. Daddy's calm, I'm safe.
Speaker 2:And they pick up your energy Down the ramp, bof Off, he goes, totally fine. Every time anybody falls, they just pick him up and go. Are you okay? Where's it hurt? Okay, what do we do in our house? We keep trying. Okay, do you want to do? We keep trying. Well, that's how we do. You can't do you zip? Okay, what do we do in our house? We keep trying. Okay, well, let's see if we can do this. And there's that kind of like using the verbs, isn't it? So you did great. I'm really pleased with your effort. You focus really really good. Listening there, you know, not not um commenting so much on the achievements.
Speaker 1:Yes, just on his approach to or attributes what a clever boy, yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:So those can be damaging. Yes, inadvertently they're. You know you're a positive praise, but actually, you know the science shows that that actually can cause uh, you know, the opposite to what you're trying to create.
Speaker 2:So I'm very much mindful of that and the other things. You know he he loves to swim and I'd like to say that I was able to take him as soon as he was allowed in the pool, but because of the pandemic and all that nonsense, everything was closed for ages and I wasn't able to take him swimming and I was thinking, oh, in fact he had to have a trial to see if he could get into the baby class because he was a bit old. But what I've done with with Ziggy, taking him swimming, is I am super relaxed in the water. I've never put him in any armbands or anything, I've just held him so he knows where he is in the water and when he goes under I just pick him up and you know, there's, you know, wonderful to to get, uh, um, you know, be in an environment where I was coached in this water set, you know, safety.
Speaker 2:It wasn't just me on my own, it's like getting instruction, let them go, pick them up, all this kind of stuff, and I'm totally, totally calm. So if he was to, like you know, to get into difficulty, just pick him up. Okay, good, you know, there isn't like wrenched out of the water or anything like that what I would do.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so there's this element, so that's what I'm really mindful of is they're just holding my, because I am an adult, apparently, and I can emotionally regulate. So when he is learning to do that, I need to be an example of that. And that's hard, don't get me wrong. It's really hard and that's how I, you know, continually kind of assess how I'm doing like. How am I doing here, you know, like, am I giving you a wide variety of things to experience? Am I being present? Am I, is my phone away? There's a lot of that going on, but am I teaching through my own emotional regulation and am I you're building um repair or bridges when I lose it? I'm sorry, daddy shouted. I got really frustrated then. I've now calmed down. I'm ready to have a cuddle if you are, you know, just taking responsibility and kind of showing that way, rather than I'm the adult. I'm right because I say get on your shoes on and get out the door, which you know we all need to say it's hard, yeah, we've all done that one, and the dreaded why?
Speaker 1:because I said so. Because I said so, yeah, yeah, um, you said something to me I don't know if it was you or you'd read it, but it really stuck in my head and I'm really conscious of it with my children is children need adversity, not trauma.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And children these days are not having enough adversity, anywhere near enough adversity. What are your thoughts on that?
Speaker 2:yeah, so we're living in a uh a culture and environment where it's instant gratification, isn't it straight to dopamine, you don't need to work for anything, no effort with no effort.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's incredibly dangerous. So, yeah, it's worth, uh, giving you my take on. So trauma, you know, and we've got to be careful because one it's a bit so stress, two types of stress eustress, which is the acute stress that one recovers from, and distress, which is the stress you can't get away from. The distress causes, you know, massive. You know you're staying in sympathetic nervous system and it's poisoning the body with neurochemicals and it's disastrous. Acute stress does the same, but for a short period, and once you recover from it, then you get the bounce. So it could be lifting weights right, it's an acute stress or getting in the cold plunge and getting out and get warmer.
Speaker 2:But one person's eustress is another person's distress. So, let's say, someone lost their job, one person's response could be a very positive one and they go great, I'm going to throw myself into my side hustle, I'm going to start a new business, I'm going to do this. Boom, and they thrive. Someone else loses their job and they fall into a state of distress and they stay there, and then there's all sorts of problems, and so I think it's the same with adversity and trauma, right. So it's like I don't know where the line is, and I think there's a difference. So there's like adversity of you know not being able to do your zip up and you know struggling with your shoelaces and not being picked for the, the, the team in the playground, and you know, and actually having to work really hard for something and it not working out. You know a lovely quote which I kind of remember, but it was like you know a fit body, you know you don't just like accidentally get one of those or um buy one do you
Speaker 2:have to work for that it's an element of adversity, is element of I'm choosing not to embark in this activity drinking whatever, whatever it might be so there's an element of restriction. In a good way, discipline equals freedom. You know, it's like not being so regimented but just being disciplined. Okay, this is what's important to me and that gives you the freedom to be and be present. So for me, the adversity is massively important because you learn to. You know to focus, to concentrate, to apply oneself to focus, and your biology behaves in a particular way. So that element of boredom and frustration are actually really healthy for us and there isn't as many opportunities for them now because we're surrounded by stuff that we can just divert our attention to effortlessly.
Speaker 2:And I would assert that the reward intrinsically, when one is committed to and done the hard things, is far greater than think oh yeah, I've got my rewards. You know that kind of dopamine trough and all of the things that we look about when you're just flooding yourself with it and it and it doesn't really matter in some ways what it is, it's the process one goes, goes through. So, dealing with challenges, setbacks, how you define those, criticism, all of these things, dealing with that actually is good for us, because it's the stress that pushes us back. We then respond and recover and we adapt. If we just live, you know the danger is like. As a parent, I want to keep Ziggy really, really safe. I want to wrap him in cotton, wool, wool. I never want him to hurt himself, I never want him to be emotionally hurt. But that's ludicrous, isn't it? So, for example, he was determined this is, uh, not so recently determined to touch the toaster, 100 determined. And I said ziggy, I'm the adult.
Speaker 2:This is a lot of logic. That's burn, you're going to burn your fingers. And he was determined, determined, determined, determined. So I said, okay, fine, touch it. So he touched it. He didn't damage his fingers, but he burned his fingers. Enough now. So he's got the feedback, so the adversity is okay, so I'm not going to do that again. I mean, that's, uh, just a gentle example of like you know that's he learned yeah through the adversity of the thing and you've got to learn how these things happen.
Speaker 2:Now I'm going to do my utmost to protect it from anything major happening, you know, and all of that stuff. So it's not like, oh, let's just see what happens. But the things that push you back make you stronger and you can choose to do things that push you back. And that's the epitome of growth mindset. It's like great, that was really, really difficult. I'm gonna try that again. And it's not about doing it and being great.
Speaker 2:And you know, my identity is like I'm successful, I'm clever, I'm a grade a student, I'm uh, whatever it's like, I try bloody hard. And when there's a challenge and I go like, what can I do differently next time? How could I approach this challenge? Whether it's mathematics's mathematics, whether it's art, whatever it is, you know there's that element of mindset and approach, such a structure of how you approach things that we learn through adversity. Because if everything's easy, everything's gifted to us, it won't be one day and then you won't have any coping strategies. But if you know that life is hard which it is then you embrace that and you're not expecting it to be effortless and easy, and those around you shouldn't create it for that, because then you're setting yourself up for a fall.
Speaker 1:And also there's a little satisfaction from doing easy things, I agree, and I don't think kids are being shown that enough, which leads me, nicely's, check how we are um, to that, those three words I've been trying to remember, yes, so, um, we're laughing because I broke this thing down and and I this is why I didn't do science and I have a language degree um, because I can't remember these terms, but I've remembered it. So there's a bit of the brain called the anterior weight mid-singulate cortex. I think it's a fairly recent isish discovery slash study that's come out. I think it's Dr Lisa Feldman on Huberman.
Speaker 1:Obviously, we listen to a lot of Huberman, as you can tell, and Huberman was interviewing David Goggins. If you don't know who he is, obviously you and I know who he is. Look him up, look him up. Look him up. Yeah, um, we now I think his name has been turned into a verb and we we turned into a verb at home. I said, yeah, I goggins that one and I goggins my scuba diving, and that I talked about that in the first episode of the podcast.
Speaker 1:So what David Goggins is well known for, like off the charts, is he forces himself to do stuff he hates. So he hates running, but he forces himself to run ridiculous like 10 miles a day. He hates swimming, so he swims with his arms tied behind his back like just crazy, because he doesn't really know why. And then Huberman explains it, which is this anterior mid cingulate cortex. But there is a bit of your brain that gets bigger and stronger and it's very big in athletes and people who, um, overcome very hard things and it gets bigger and stronger and that's the seat of the will to live and willpower. And you can make it bigger by but it has to be things you don't like doing, which is really interesting because if you do cold plunge and then eventually you really like it, like a girl on my team loves her cold shower to the point where she can't have a hot shower, so that no longer will be doing the job.
Speaker 2:It's dose, isn't it?
Speaker 1:yeah, so I think that's fascinating, um, because I don't like, I don't hate it, but I don't love my pt sessions, my poor pt. Every time I do a podcast I say I really like him and I do feel good afterwards because I've done it and I'm sure there's physiological which you would explain much better things I get from doing a deadlift and I get that stress moment and um, but it's because I don't want to do it and the hour leading up to I'm thinking I really don't want to do this.
Speaker 2:You're trying to wiggle out of it and I try and wiggle out of it and I think I don't feel great. Oh yeah, is that the time?
Speaker 1:Oh I wonder I don't know, funny tummy, and then my Goggins brain kicks in and goes get down there, Come on. You've got to do the hard thing. It's good for you and that's been really helpful for me, because I think I asked you, so you coached me through the not the Brighton Marathon, the Brighton Half Marathon, which for me was enough Huge.
Speaker 1:I hate running, yeah, I know, and I still hate running, and I remember seeing you waving at me as you were about to finish going the other way and I still had about half to go. I'm thinking that bastard is nearly finished. And so you coached me through that and you taught me the smile thing then. So I remember doing my runs up in the downs like that. Got to like this for those who are watching this, I'm doing horrible fake smile.
Speaker 1:Um, so I love that whole doing the hard things and we need and I try and teach my children to do so things like my youngest daughter oh, she's at a school that's very windswept and rainy and they rightly so make them still play hockey and netball in skorts in the driving rain great, which I think is very good for them. Um, oh, can you get me off games? No, oh, you're so mean and you get me off games. No, oh, you're so mean and you get me off games. Email this, you know. No, I'm not getting you off games, don't be so lame. And then she literally won't talk to me all the way to school.
Speaker 1:But I said you need to learn to do these things. It's really good for you. How's it good for me? I'm going to catch a cold. We can't catch a cold from getting cold, but anyway, that's another thing, another thing. So, yeah, teaching our kids to do the hard things, but also ourselves. And I, I remember asking you when you were coaching me, like how do you train yourself to do the things you don't want to do? And now I'm asking you again. I know yeah, so.
Speaker 2:So motivation and willpower is overrated because it won't be there when you need it, when you're tired and you're stressed good luck. So you need something else instead. So then it comes to, because motivation and willpower are like a feeling-based emotion right, and that's up and down, whereas on the other side, or the opposite side of that, is commitment. So there's no way I would have wanted to train seven hours a day, six days a week. So that's really awful, it's tireless. You know, even though I put my smile on, I did enjoy elements. I'd rather have got out of it and, you know, relaxed or, you know, gone and done something else, but the commitment was there. To my teammates, to my coach, the only reason that I went through the paces. My coach is there, so the environment was set up and the behavior that was expected or the desired behavior just took place, automatically rock up. It's high performance setting. You're a high performance athlete, you get on with it, and that's why commitment is so important. When you're looking to create new habits and behaviors, and you can play with this as you need to. It could be that you're the type of person that letting someone down is something that you won't do because your values, your morals, whatever it is. So you commit to that person that you're going to go and do x and no matter what your you know, internal, I'm a bit this. I'm a bit that you won't let that person down because you've committed to them, I think, and you've got to allow yourself to think well, why am I doing this? The only reason that you fall short of goals you don't have a big enough reason why. So if you want to learn to present public speak, it's hard, it's you know, I take, you know, deliver two-day public uh, presentation masteries and training in public speaking, we do that in-house, corporately. We do open workshops and every time we start off with a big enough reason why oh, I just want to better my job. Well, that's not a really big enough reason why. What about? What would more confidence give you? What would you could inspire your children, or children you know, of others, to have more confidence. Well, this is a way to do that. So would you step into that place where it's going to be difficult now, outside of your comfort zone? So a big enough reason why is important.
Speaker 2:But also the environment, socially, and and you know your actual environment. So if you want to meditate, then you want to be able to go to a place where there's no devices and you know all of that kind of stuff, and it might be sat at the edge of your bed every morning but you might need a reminder. So post-it note on the alarm clock, not your phone, in order to do it. So you're designing the environment where the desired behavior takes place and you're not relying on Do, I feel like, because you won't when you need to do it the most. Because if you do something every day or frequently, then it becomes a habit and then it moves into the. This is what I do.
Speaker 2:We all brush our teeth frequently because you know, we know the benefits. Big enough reason why I don't want my teeth to fall out, have a aesthetic thing going on, also gum health and all of that wonderful stuff. Big enough reason why it's been repetition every day and it's now just something that I do and you just kind of like, go off and not really thinking and do the best. So how do we form the habits that are going to serve us? That's exactly the same approach we need.
Speaker 2:Start small, you know. Improve, prove it to yourself with small wins. I'm the type of person that you know is committed to. You know doing the hard things, and I'm going to inspire my children to do the same. Now you're more likely to do the hard things because if you don't, then they won't, because your actions speak much louder than your words. So motivation gets you started, because you want a big reason why. But it's habit that keeps you going. And people say, how do you train seven hours a day? I say, well, I just did, and I'm not being I'm not throwing that away. I just did, started off when I was like two, and then it was three, and then it was four, and then it was five, and then it was just the environment. That's what it was. That's what I did. I didn't question it as in, you know, I don't want to do it because I've just been taught.
Speaker 1:I'm like this is what I'm committed to, this is my big reason why, and this is the environment the need for willpower and motivation, which are, you know, with resources which dindle quickly and often aren't there when you need them, just ringing lots of bells. Yeah, and it's true, isn't it?
Speaker 2:yeah, yeah, it is because you could you can make it difficult, which is I'm not gonna have a glass of wine. I really want it. I hate running. I'm gonna make myself do it. Okay, there's some, you know. So what are you going to do instead? Well, not have wine in the house. Make it friction. So you've got to get in the car, drive down the shops or to the pub and get one right.
Speaker 2:So don't have it in the house, because that's things that create friction for habits you don't want to do and then make it effortless for habits you want to do. So get your gym kit out, you know, laying on the side, and make sure that you know the alarm is set and that you know you'll make doris's waiting at the door. Well, you know that's why pt is so great. Yeah, because knock, knock, knock. They're the expensive knock at the door. You've committed money, resources. You know someone's time that you're respectful of. You're not going to suddenly go oh sorry, you could have had someone else. I'm not turning up.
Speaker 1:I've got a tummy ache yeah, right, right, lame, lame your own words, right, so you just go, boom.
Speaker 2:But if it was, I'm going to go to the gym. You know, for an hour that'd have been a harder one for you to commit to, because you can get out of that. Yeah, exactly, it's just you and you. So you create that commitment and you're already doing it. So the opportunity for all of us is to go. How can I make it a commitment and not rely on motivation at all?
Speaker 1:Because then it will just happen. Yeah, and I have a good example of this and I'm going to confess this, but I think it's a good, yeah, good illustration. So I think it was last week or the week before, I'd been here all day and I've been sat all day and I have got to the point where I do enough. You'll be pleased to hear movement now where I then crave it and I want to move and I love my tennis, as you know. So that doesn't do the anterior mid-singulate cortex. I've been raining. You know, it's like the wheat weather, it was just rain, rain, rain. I didn't play tennis once.
Speaker 1:I think I've missed a PT because I was in London and I said to my youngest, who's quite sporty, I feel really like I want to go, for I even want to go for a run or something. She said, well, why don't we go down to? We've got a little gym area in our carport. Let's go down and do a little workout. I was like, oh, really, and she was like and she was like, yeah, should we? Goggins it and I'm bloody with the goggins.
Speaker 1:So we went down and I taught her how to do some um rows with the trx and stuff and um, and I started doing some uh like knee tucks, where you hang off the because I can't do pull-ups, and I did about three and I thought fucking hell, this is hard, can't be arsed. And I stopped because there wasn't a guy standing there counting to 12 to then, do you know, several sets, and it was a real like I thought I'll do something else and then I can't be asked for that either, and the fact that he wasn't there and my daughter let me off quite easily, because it was raining and it's quite cold and it's getting dark and we were a bit hungry. I was like, I mean, you know, better than nothing, better than nothing. But it's a good example, isn't it, of environment and the social norm.
Speaker 2:It's almost like oh, I'll let you off, if you let me off, oh, come on, let's have ice cream together, right, or a cake?
Speaker 1:yeah, I will.
Speaker 2:If you will, yeah, all right yeah, you know, so it's yeah we look for the easy way out, don't we?
Speaker 1:yeah, where's the dopamine coming?
Speaker 2:from where can I get it? Easy no, no only to the circumstances and the other person.
Speaker 1:Accountability is, yeah, really powerful yeah, and I looked for the easy way out with the scuba diving and I told you the whole story and my brain was literally, I mean, and it was going hell for leather. Well, you nearly drowned. As a child, you're perfectly entitled not to do this. This is not a useful skill, you know. When there's an emergency, you don't go quick, grab the scuba gear, let's, you know, head under for half an hour. It's not useful, it's you know. And my brain was literally come up with loads of really good reasons to not do it and in the end, I think the main thing was being an example to my youngest daughter, who was refusing to do it. Um, but yeah, so doing the hard things, I'm really, you know, I have two children now one's doing A-levels. I have three children. I came out wrong. You know what I mean.
Speaker 1:I have a child doing A-levels, a child doing GCCs. They're both very different characters and that hard, that hard slog of you know cliche, but keep your eye on the prize. So my eldest has got an offer from her dream university but she needs very high grades to get in and she has dyslexia and ADD, so it's not easy for her. And she's a brilliant procrastinator. She can rearrange her pencil case 50 times. Check a bloody phone, which I always say to you know, I didn't have that um handicap escape you know, I just that was study or watch neighbors.
Speaker 1:You know, there wasn't really much else to do, whereas you've got all this.
Speaker 1:I could watch netflix, I could go on my phone, I could go on tiktok and just, and it's so difficult to um and and ziggy's three and a half so you're in a difficult phase, but in a way an easier phase, whereas when they're teenagers and you can in your, you can see the path they're going down and you're desperately trying to steer them but also allow them. And she said well, I'm an adult now, I'm 18. Just leave me alone. I know what's at stake here. You nagging me, especially her father, does not help. Especially her father does not help. But it's so, so difficult when we know how badly she wants this thing but then also struggles to sit down and do the work. Yeah, so that's the other thing about parenting, is it? Never you think, right, I've got that bit nailed. It's not touching the toaster anymore. Exactly, yeah, it never gets easy. Yeah, yeah, and then they go into the next thing.
Speaker 2:Um, there's a slight tangent there but um, I think, yeah, you know, just just to, just to, if I may just like an observation there is that you know we're searching, aren't we?
Speaker 2:and you know, we all remember where we're finding, our independence and everything, and we want to stand on our own two feet and make our own decisions and our own mistakes and everything, and I think, being asked questions of. You know had sessions with psychologists where it was really important that we communicated to those around us what we needed at crucial times of high pressure. So, for example, if, um, if my friends and family were calling me just before I was about to go and compete and asking oh can you sort tickets out?
Speaker 2:and oh, I just wanted to say you're good luck or haven't seen you for whatever. It is right. So there was this element of what do I need in that situation in order for me to be able to perform at my best, and then everyone was really clear. So, for example, I said to my parents I'll call you, you don't call me, I'll come and find you, I'm in charge. This is how it is. So you do your own thing and if I want to speak to you, I'll call you, find you, I'm in charge. This is how it is. So you do your own thing and if I want to speak to you, I'll call you. It might be this day, but it might be that day. So it was real clarity. So they weren't thinking, oh, what do I need to do? How can we help Leon the best? They were like right, because I was asked what do you need? And so when you're gonna, you know, permanently disfigure your your finger, right, so there's this element. So there's like I mean I couldn't ask you what you need, but but then that element of a young adult finding their thing is like I deal with athletes all the time. It's like what do you need you know. And then if're explicitly clear, then you know exactly what you can do. And even if you can think, oh, maybe this, there's a.
Speaker 2:And another thing that worked beautifully for me was when my parents wanted to give me a steer. They wouldn't tell me directly because I would immediately just discount it because it was from them. They would find someone who I listened to. It was like I remember one example where there was a physio who I was being treated by and he was like he seemed to be really like informed of what was going on in my life and gave me some really kind of sage advice and a bit of a steer on how to navigate something. And I came out and I, you know, kind of told my, my parents, oh yeah, he was saying this and I think I'm going to do that and they were like, oh, okay, good, because when your peers become more important than your parents and there's that dance isn't there, it's like who are you influenced by and how can you get that message across?
Speaker 2:So I think that instead of banging your head against a brick wall which is, you know, often what parenting is about it's like okay, can I be really clear on what that person, young person, needs, who's kind of created like, and get an understanding of what is going on for you. Tell me more, tell me more, tell me more. Okay, well, what do you need? What can we do? Nothing, all right. Well, if nothing wasn't an option, then we could do something. What could it?
Speaker 1:be?
Speaker 2:I don't know you know it's good you've got to kind of dance with that, I'm okay. And you're asking the same question a few times. Gently is often a good strategy, and if that's, who else can you bring into the can you kind of like?
Speaker 2:give them a bit of a nudge or an inspiration or show them that blind spot or whatever it might be, and I feel that in my experience certainly personally and now professionally in different areas that's a really good strategy, because if you're nagging, then you're likely to get the antagonistic response, which is right. I'm going to do the opposite. I'm going to do extra procrastination now, because you're telling me not to. You think that's procrastination? Watch this, you know. Yeah, exactly, you're in a battle.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I, yeah. It's kind of like you think, oh, I'll give them a good pep talk. Yeah, I know so, I'm the pep talker. And uh, and Grace was like, oh, is this a mummy pep talk? It's like, yes, um, so yeah, new work with young athletes, so that's really helpful and yeah, it's hard because they are because you deeply care about them and what they're doing and that's.
Speaker 2:But they are young adults, yeah, and and as we talked about the adversity and making your own mistakes and going okay, now I need to figure this out. Hard to watch, right, but that's where the yeah, the real substance is to finish up.
Speaker 1:what are you up to next and where can people find you? We'll link your TED Talks. People can watch it because it's brilliant. Yes, yeah thanks, mel.
Speaker 2:So that's, yeah, how to Manage your Mental Health is the title of the TEDx 2018. And, yeah, it fits in very well with this year's theme Mental Health Awareness Week. People can find me, so, yeah, reach out on LinkedIn. Really, I've got a few things coming up. I've got a an amazing um event in turkey. Uh, with a star-studded lineup of um athletes and professional dancers.
Speaker 2:So if you want to train with dainty thompson, denise lewis, paula radcliffe, rebecca adlington and then ian way and many of the strictly dancers were in in an amazing all-inclusive five-star resort in turkey, fly into ismere or bodrum. It's in may. It's the opening weekend. This hotel is unbelievable and the prices are much cheaper than you think they're going to be because it's like an opening kind of weekend. It's, uh, it's called like a wellness weekend or fitness weekend, but you go running with paula radcliffe at eight. You come back and you can do circuits with daily thompson, denise lewis, colin jackson, then you can do yoga with me at 10. Then you can do rowing with olympic gold medalist vicky thornley. It's like mega. So I'm really excited, uh, about that.
Speaker 2:So, if people are interested, it's posted on my, on my linkedin and some of the other things I'm, you know, my executive coaching, which I'm really passionate about, but also the presentation mastery. There's this thing called glossophobia, which 75% of the population suffer from, apparently, and it's fear of public speaking, right, and so we're doing something about that. So that's something that's relatively new. It's the confident club, so I'm newly part of that team and with one of my dear friends and speaking mentors, and, yeah, and then the Olympic Games this summer. So tune in if you want to watch any of the world's greatest athletes doing their thing. It's an amazing chance to celebrate humanity as well as all things sporting. So I'll be live from Paris this summer Commentating on the diving yeah, on the diving for the beeb yeah, um, that weekend sounds amazing.
Speaker 1:When is it in may?
Speaker 2:it's the second weekend in may, 10th to the 12th of may oh, it sounds like you need to be pretty fit. Well look, yeah, so this is the thing, so you could. All the classes are part of it. So I would say just, you know come and have a look right.
Speaker 1:So if you did all of those, I was gonna say running with paul radcliffe would probably kill me off. Yeah, first morning, can you?
Speaker 2:imagine even just a couple.
Speaker 1:I haven't even seen her running when she ran the london marathon. We lived. We lived in canary wharf and she hurtled past us I don't know what mile canary wharf is, but it's pretty far it's far in, yeah, yeah and uh yeah, insane yeah.
Speaker 2:So the vibe of the weekend is like it's a, it's a, it's a wellness launch there's. You know, we're delivering the classes, but we're not going to be training olympians, right, we're going to be training people on holidays. It's going to be a fun vibe and and you know, and I know a lot of the uh, the people who are going to be there and delivering it'll be a really fun event as well. So it's yeah, it's definitely worth checking out all right, I'm going to check that out.
Speaker 1:I'll be on your linkedin perfect.
Speaker 2:Yeah, please do. Yeah, well, I'll send you a message with the details, yeah thank you so much pleasure.