Episode 3: My Boyfriend Has Been Unemployed Our Entire Relationship

In this episode, we explore the turbulent waters where love collides with personal boundaries. Witness a bride's battle against her controlling, affluent mother-in-law, as wedding dreams clash with familial expectations. Feel the frustration of a woman grappling with her partner's chronic unemployment, testing the limits of love and ambition. Experience the heartache of a jiu-jitsu enthusiast whose passion inadvertently injures his girlfriend, forcing a reckoning with the impact of personal pursuits on their bond. Join us as we unpack these poignant tales of love, loss, and the difficult choices that shape our lives.

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Transcript

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Mickey:  Hey everybody.

Pugly:  Hey.

Mickey:  We're back.

Pugly:  We are back.

Mickey:  This is actually like our fourth recording session, to be honest with you guys.

Pugly:  In truth, it is, but in reality—

Mickey:  It's the second.

Pugly:  In our… Yeah, in the reality that we're presenting to you all, yeah.

Mickey:  Yeah. Our last session I said “Episode 2: So Bad That We Fell Asleep,” right? That was what it was called?

Pugly:  Yeah, “So Riveting That We Fell Asleep” or something like that.

Mickey:  Yeah, so we're not going to put you guys through that. This is not a falling asleep podcast.

Pugly:  We have listeners in West Jordan, Utah.

Mickey:  West Jordan, Utah?

Pugly:  Where the ---- is that?

Mickey:  Is that Mormon land?

Pugly:  I mean, I'm sorry I shouldn't have said ----.

Mickey:  Don't say ----, it's in Utah. Sorry to the Church of… what are they called?

Pugly:  Latter-Day Saints.

Mickey:  Latter-Day Saints.

Pugly:  What the heck?

Mickey:  What does that mean? Like Latter-Day Saints versus like Former-Day Saints? Like? What does that mean?

Pugly:  I guess the Former-Day Saints are the Catholic Saints.

Mickey:  Ohh… Anyway, we have listeners in Utah. That's crazy.

Pugly:  That is crazyyy. And you know what else? We have some in Egypt.

Mickey:  Wow.

Pugly: One Egyptian lishener. Lishener.

Mickey:  Thank you, our Egyptian listener.

Pugly:  Why? We have no idea. We are just getting reception galore that we did not anticipate.

Mickey:  Oh, galore [laughs]. No, really. Thank you to our listeners. We really appreciate you guys. There's a lot more of you than we expected. We're just two girls having some conversations. Thank you for not only listening the whole way through, that's so exciting—

Pugly:  It's not the whole way through. They only have to listen for, to a minute.

Mickey:  I was just going to say that. And you didn't, and you couldn't let me do that.

Pugly:  I'm sorry, let's start that over. Try that again.

Mickey:  No, it's fine. Thank you not only for listening all the way through, but also for rating and for sending in comments. A few of you have sent in some really nice compliments and stuff. So we really appreciate that.

Pugly:  Speaking of, we actually have an anonymous listener audio note that was recorded specifically for the purpose of being broadcasted on this here podcast.

Mickey:  I don't think it was specifically to be broadcast, but I think—

Pugly:  Oh.

Mickey:  Right?

Pugly:  Well, I think she wants the fame that comes with being on our podcast.

Mickey:  She wants her 15 minutes of fame. Are you listening out there? You're getting it now. Congrats!

Pugly:  Here we go. Here's our first listener audio note that we have here. “This podcast is so good, I'm so impressed, I'm hooked! And y'all have such beautiful voices, ugh!” My initial thoughts to this are… Well, I guess, thank you. Actually, that's not even true. That's not my initial thought; it was more of a processed thought. But my raw thoughts to this were: I do not have a beautiful voice, so—

Mickey:  I think you have a beautiful voice.

Pugly:  My voice literally just cracked just saying that.

Mickey:  I think everybody hates their own voice. My voice just cracked.

Pugly:  Do you think Adele hates her own voice?

Mickey:  Probably. Why do you think she made five breakup albums? She's breaking up with herself. She hates her voice.

Pugly:  Ahh, she’s breaking up with herself. That's the true nitty gritty of Adele.

Mickey:  Yeah, no, she's sad, she's tormented. Everyone loves her voice, but she can't really hear the real Adele voice. You can never really hear your own voice If you have a beautiful voice. How sad is that? That's tragic, that's literally tragedy.

Pugly:  It reminds me of—Did you ever hear, I think it was a whale? It might have been, I think it was a whale that had, like it's like whatever sonar frequency or whatever was just so unique that it couldn't connect with the other whales.

Mickey:  It didn't have any friends in its own frequency.

Pugly:  Yeah.

Mickey:  Yeah. Aww, that’s so sad.

Pugly:  And so it literally couldn't communicate with the other whales.

Mickey:  That's Adele!

Pugly:  That's Adele. She has a voice so unique that she cannot connect with others.

Mickey:  Literally. And disclaimer we're not calling her fat.

Pugly:  What?

Mickey:  Adele, we're not calling you fat. We love you.

Pugly:  Why would we do that?

Mickey:  Whale?

Pugly:  Ohh! I'm sorry, that did not go through my mind whatsoever.

Mickey:  And also, if you're fat, that's totally fine. We love you, and you're beautiful. I'm fat myself.

Pugly:  And I'm not.

Mickey:  And also, you guys will never know if that's the truth or not.

Pugly:  You really won't.

Mickey:  It's a mystery.

Pugly:  I mean unless you already know us firsthand.

Mickey:  But fat is beautiful is what we're trying to say.

Pugly:  But this is Secondhand Therapy.

Mickey:  Secondhand Therapy. And on this week we have some topics.

Pugly:  We do, we do.

Mickey:  First of all, sorry. Anonymous listener, we love you. Thank you so much.

Pugly:  We love you. Yes, we do appreciate your comments and she had some more to share, but those are just for us.

Mickey:  Just for us. And we really appreciated those.

Pugly:  Yeah.

Mickey:  Especially you listening to our podcast—Amazing. Makes us feel good.

Pugly:  Yeah, we always love our listeners, and actually we had another listener who spontaneously decided to send in a write-in—unprompted. Unsolicited, unprompted. This one is an interesting one. I wanted to read it if you wouldn't mind.

Mickey:  You know what, I do mind. I'm just kidding. I hate when people do that. That’s literally my… What is it called—pet peeve? When you’re like “If you don't mind,” and someone's like, “I actually do mind.” Grow up, get another joke.

Pugly:  It does remind me, though, because for some reason this does seem different to me, but in high school, there was this girl one time at the lunch table, and she asked me if she could borrow my salt that I wasn't using or something like that, like a salt packet. And she was like, “Can I borrow that?” And she just started reaching over, and I was like, “No.” I was just like, “No, you can't.” You can't just initiate the move

Mickey:  Before you hear my response yeah.

Pugly:  And I wasn't serious. I mean, I let her have it, but it's like, at least pretend to believe what you're saying.

Mickey:  Yeah, exactly.

Pugly:  So. And for some reason to me, that feels different than somebody saying, “No.”

Mickey:  Yeah, I was just about to comment on how I just said I hate people like that, and you were like, “I'm like that.”

Pugly:  Yeah, no, you were already saying that.

Mickey:  Yeah.

Pugly:  So I was just like disproving, though, because you don't hate me.

Mickey:  Oh, you feel like you disproved it?

Pugly:  Yeah. Do you hate me?

Mickey:  I don't hate you, but you know what? I gave you a free pass because you were in high school.

Pugly:  Oh, I was immature.

Mickey:  You were mature and also—No, it's not even that. Like yeah, that's like a funny, you're making a critique of her, like it's acceptable. But when someone's just like, you know, just trying to mess with you, not only was it a dad joke like a hundred years ago and it's over now, it's over, it's done with, it's canceled… But like—

Pugly:  Cancellation isn't permanent.

Mickey:  Mmm, maybe. But not only is it just like a dad joke, like a rudimentary dad joke, but it's also, on top of that, like you're not even being funny. Like it's not funny. Like at least when you were saying no about the salt, you were being funny because you're like—

Pugly:  Thanks.

Mickey:  Yeah, like you're—

Pugly:  I appreciate it, ‘cause in the moment, I felt like, “Oh, that's actually funny,” like I laughed at myself.

Mickey:  Good.

Pugly:  Yeah.

Mickey:  I'm happy for you.

Pugly:  I think she laughed too.

Mickey:  Oh, good.

Pugly:  But it didn't matter to me whether she laughed or not, because I thought it was funny.

Mickey:  Yeah, that's honestly… Be funny for yourself—

Pugly:  First and foremost.

Mickey:  —and success will follow.

Pugly:  Wise words.

Mickey:  Wise words. Alright, so what did our listener send in?

Pugly:  This inaugural listener write-in says: Hello, Secondhand Therapy.

Mickey:  Hello.

Pugly:  Hello. I'm a huge fan of the show, a long-time listener but a first-time caller. I would like both of your opinions on a matter regarding my soon-to-be mother-in-law. I am the bride, and my fiancé and I are getting married this year, which I am beyond excited for.

Mickey:  Yay, we're excited too.

Pugly:  Yay! We're comin’.

Mickey:  We're on our way [laughs]!

Pugly:  Some important background information: My parents are still married and my fiancé’s parents are divorced. My parents gave as much money as they could for the wedding and we appreciated every cent, because they don't have much. My fiancé’s dad is a school teacher and also gave as much as he could, which was really appreciated. When we talked to my fiancé’s mom, who is VERY well off, we had asked for her to contribute whatever she was able to, and since I have a planner, she would take care of all the planning, so no one had to stress. My mother-in-law said she was, and I quote, “INSULTED” that we would ask for the money and not let her plan the rehearsal dinner herself. She said, and again I quote, “The rehearsal dinner is about the groom's family, not about the bride and groom. The evening is supposed to reflect the groom's personality.”

Mickey:  Well, I have to make a comment here. I have never seen a rehearsal dinner that reflects the groom's personality, because isn't that the whole point of the—What's that cake called? The groom's cake or whatever? Wedding stuff is just… It's pretty, it's about women. It's literally about what women want to see and look at. Everyone knows that. Weddings are fun for everybody, but they look how women want them to look, including rehearsal dinners, right?

Pugly:  When I'm reading this and hearing this—at least the listener who wrote in—it seems like from their perspective, it's about to get into this territory where it's like she's saying it's supposed to be about the groom's personality, but really it's supposed to be about the groom's mother's personality.

Mickey:  Ain't that the truth?

Pugly:  The reality of weddings is just… it's a familial affair.

Mickey:  It really is. What's that Godfather quote… Or was it The Godfather? I have actually never seen it.

Pugly:  The horse head thing?

Mickey:  Huh?

Pugly:  I think that was The Godfather.

Mickey:  No, where he's like, “You come to me on the day of my daughter's wedding.”

Pugly:  Oh, oh. Yeah.

Mickey:  Is that The Godfather?

Pugly:  Yeah.

Mickey:  People really care about their children's weddings. More than I think people care about their own weddings.

Pugly:  Truth. Because I think once you've had your own wedding, it's like, “Oh, now I know what to expect of a wedding, what to look for in a wedding.”

Mickey:  And what it could look like.

Pugly:  And what it should, most importantly, look like.

Mickey:  Capital S-H.

Pugly:  Only S-H.

Mickey:  [laughs]

Pugly:  0-u-l-capital D.

Mickey:  Oh my God, I thought it was saying something.

Pugly:  That's my password. You just divulged it to everybody.

Mickey:  Anyway, I just… Yeah, I think that's… People should be more honest about what they're saying. Like no, it's not really… You don't want it to be how your son wants it to be. You just want it to look like how you want it to look like.

Pugly:  It is interesting, though, that she says it's about the groom's family, not about the bride and groom. That's a… Aren't weddings generally just about the union?

Mickey:  Mhm. Well, many will say no. But what is his personality, but not only that, but like did she—

Pugly:  It just occurred to me like this could be his first impression of us.

Mickey:  Yeah. Oh, okay, ooh… Well, you know, your mom is amazing, I'm sure. I'm sure she's an amazing woman. You know, we're hearing one side of things and we just we—

Pugly:  And I'm sure it's the side that you've heard the most from too.

Mickey:  Yeah, maybe. But anyway, I would be curious to know did this mother-in-law consult her son before saying this, before like even reacting, like… Was there a conversation there? Because that's for me, that's her responsibility, like saying, like you know, “What do you want?”

Pugly:  She says the people pleaser I am was shocked because we just didn't want them to have to worry about anything around the wedding, and I explained that. In the end I took it as the mother-in-law wanted complete control because she felt her reputation would be judged based on the rehearsal dinner and didn't want my middle-class family to ruin her reputation. My fiancé and I didn't want to put up a fight and told her she could plan it, but we wanted her to communicate with us through the planning process.

Mickey:  Mhm. I mean, I think that's very gracious of them to first of all hire a planner to do it for her so that she wouldn't have to worry. I mean, for me, she could have been like, “I'll work with the planner if you guys don't mind.” Like, she could have literally said that, but you know, she chose to say, “I want full control.” So it's very gracious of them to see that and say, “Okay, we'll let you have what you want,” because to me that would be red flag, like you know what she's gonna take over and not communicate to us. Maybe that's what's gonna happen.

Pugly:  My fiancé and I really didn't care about the rehearsal dinner; we just wanted to save money and spend that more toward the wedding. We would have been fine with a simple rehearsal dinner in the back room of a restaurant. Fast forward, a month later, my fiancé and I go to look at venues and narrow it down to two. I told my mother-in-law that evening that we think we have one venue to book, and my wedding planner can get a list of good rehearsal dinner venues near it. To my shock, my mother-in-law says that she has already booked a venue for the rehearsal dinner. I had my fiancé talk to her later, and he asked where the rehearsal dinner would be. And my mother-in-law got mad that we would ask where it would be because she wanted to surprise us with it when, again, we had told her we wanted her to communicate with us if she was going to plan the rehearsal dinner. But that didn't matter to her.

Mickey:  So I guess I was right. That's unfortunate. I don't see why she has to keep that to herself. Like private, that information, like what venue it is. And I can see why, like even if I'm like, okay, my son shouldn't care where it is, he's like the groom; nobody cares with the groom once on the wedding or whatever. You can empathize with the bride being like you know, I just want to make sure everything's looking good, like why, why not? Why not tell her? Or tell them it's here and everything else be a surprise?

Pugly:  Well, she ended up booking the rehearsal dinner at a country club, which we would have rather not spent that much money on a country club and had some of the money used toward the wedding. But in the end our opinion didn't matter because, remember she said, the rehearsal dinner represents the groom side of the family. So of course we should know she would want the country club to represent her family. Also to note, when my fiancé asked if she would be contributing to the wedding at all, she said, “No, that's the bride's responsibility,” even though if we go by her tradition, the groom side usually pays for alcohol at the wedding and the honeymoon.

Mickey:  Oh, I didn't know that.

Pugly:  I didn't either until this.

Mickey:  Wow.

Pugly:  I did look up a few, you know, things that are paid for by each side of the traditional heteronormative relationship. And I was surprised at a few things.

Mickey:  Western.

Pugly:  Yeah, Western. Sorry. Thank you.

Mickey:  We're both learning here. Yeah.

Pugly:  There wasn't really anything that was more interesting than what she had already pointed out of the alcohol and the honeymoon being paid for by the groom's family.

Mickey:  So why, I wonder why she's not paying for that?

Pugly:  I guess, you know, her tradition is a little bit more nuanced than the traditional tradition.

Mickey:  Yeah, very nuanced.

Pugly:  I think she has a unique perspective on the tradition. But I think, you know, the alcohol doesn't really represent her, her son’s personality.

Mickey:  Ohh. Nor does the honeymoon.

Pugly:  Yeah, the honeymoon doesn't represent—

Mickey:  Because nobody will be on the honeymoon that can witness her reputation. You know what I mean? Like on the honeymoon, it'll only be the bride and groom, so no guests will be there to witness what she's contributed.

Pugly:  This is giving more evidence to the fact that maybe she does want, as we had in our initial episode, appearances, to be, you know, high and mighty.

Mickey:  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So okay, I'm, I have a unique perspective on this because, culturally, like, you know, reputation is important for me and my family and, like you got to put up at least the looks of, you know, having grandeur, having, you know, having wealth, having whatever, and I get that, I get that you want to do that, but why in the hell does it matter to you to separate it? That's the part that I don't get. Like be like, well, you know, this money that I'm contributing to only goes to the thing that everyone knows the groom’s side of the family is responsible for. That's the part where it's like oh, so you just want credit. Like it's not. Like, oh, you know what, let me just take away some of my budget to get a smaller venue, and I can, I can at least give you guys a little bit of money for the, for your wedding, and you can, you know, whatever, have an open bar or whatever, like whatever—however, that could have helped.

Pugly:  Mhm.

Mickey:  That also reflects on the bride and groom, by the way—like the wedding.

Pugly:  Yeah. Some things that I'm learning about weddings from, you know, seeing weddings go on around me.

Mickey:  Yeah?

Pugly:  First, family conflicts play an important role in the wedding planning process.

Mickey:  Oh yeah!

Pugly:  And then, the second is that class differences also play a role.

Mickey:  Yeah, that's like, and I think it's a very modern problem. Like it's funny that you bring it up. It's a very modern problem because I think, you know, previously, people of different classes didn't really marry each other.

Pugly:  Yeah.

Mickey:  And I think even to this day, like, largely people marry within their class.

Pugly:  True.

Mickey:  But it's a little bit more acceptable to marry outside of your class. People didn't have to deal with this before.

Pugly:  Right. It's an emerging problem.

Mickey:  Yeah, it's an emerging problem. Hot topic.

Pugly:  Yeah, what do we think of it? So, her question in particular to us was: Are my fiancé and I selfish for wanting some control over our rehearsal dinner and wanting to have more money to spend toward the wedding instead? I think not. I think this is both of your wedding, and it seems like you're suggesting that maybe the groom isn't happy with the way that his or your mother-in-law, or future mother-in-law, is developing these plans. I don't know if the rehearsal dinner at the country club represents his personality or not, because unfortunately, we haven't had the privilege of meeting him yet—

Mickey:  Mhm.

Pugly:  —but we are very excited to do so!

Mickey:  Very excited to meet you! Yeah, I would agree with you. I would say I don't think that's selfish of you guys. I think it seems like it doesn't… Like you said, it probably doesn't reflect what the groom wants.

Pugly:  If, if, if she's like coming into this on a, you know, united front of, “Are we selfish for wanting some control?” It sounds like he doesn't feel like he has control.

Mickey:  Yeah, and, and if that's the case, if, like, the groom and bride agree on what they want, it's like what else matters after that? Why would a parent get involved and change things up like that's… I think that's a little selfish.

Pugly:  Yeah.

Mickey:  I can't say it out loud because I'm talking about somebody's mom. Sorry!

Pugly:  Yeah. Who you may have acquaintanceship with.

Mickey:  Yes.

Pugly:  I do wonder, do you think that, in this scenario, that somebody facing these circumstances would have any chance of like reconciling with the mother-in-law?

Mickey:  Um…

Pugly:  And how, how would that happen if so?

Mickey:  Well, I feel like there's a couple options, like you can just get over it. Not get over it, but like, move past it and try to move past it yourself and, like you know, quote-unquote “be the bigger person.”

Pugly:  So, like, accept?

Mickey:  Accept it, but then what does that spell for your future? How is your future with them? Like, how much interaction are you gonna have with your mother-in-law? Like, is she gonna be really involved in your life? Are you guys planning on having kids? Like, would she want to be involved in that? Like I feel like, if so, then that fix doesn't… is not a fix. You know what I mean? Well, I mean I guess you could do it this one time and then in the future, put more boundaries. But then the other thing is like, you know, and I don't think it's your responsibility, but maybe like the groom's responsibility to be like, and maybe he's done this, we don't know. To be like, you know, “Hey mom, like, I actually really didn't want this, like, can we do something else?”

Pugly:  Mhm.

Mickey:  Or I mean, maybe at this point they can't do something else; it's too late, but, like, maybe we could have done something else and I would appreciate it next time if you just asked me before and we discussed it since it's our responsibility, and I'm part of the family, you know? I don't… Do you think it's worth having that conversation, or do you think someone like the mother-in-law is probably not open to hearing it? I mean, we really don't know much about her.

Pugly:  Yeah, without knowing her, it's hard to tell. But I do think there are people that it's probably not worth having the conversation with, and it takes knowing your own mother and your mother-in-law to know whether that's the case here or not.

Mickey:  Yeah.

Pugly:  I think if you're going like, if you're going to approach somebody like this, then it makes sense to use the sort of formula for like having a nonviolent conversation or nonviolent communication kind of conversation.

Mickey:  Uh huh [laughs].

Pugly:  Why is that funny to you?

Mickey:  Sorry, I'm—

Pugly:  There's a book called Nonviolent Communication.

Mickey:  Oh okay, sorry.

Pugly:  There's a specific formula that you use.

Mickey:  I'm just imagining—Because I've never heard of this, so I'm imagining people like pulling knives out, like, “Ahh”—

Pugly:  You've probably heard of it though. So, like it's, you make an observation first of like what's happening, and then you talk about your feelings, how it makes you feel, what needs are not being met as a result of it, and then you sort of make a request.

Mickey:  Yeah, I think actually like that would be a good way to know…

Pugly:  Whether she is somebody who can be approached like rationally?

Mickey:  Yeah. Yeah. Especially since it's like all booked and everything. Like it's not like she can be like, “Well, I'm not gonna pay for this or do this.” Like, you know, she got her way and they let her get her way. I mean, she didn't really give them much of a choice, but like, if you guys do this, if you guys do decide to have this conversation with her, it's a good way to know how willing is she to hear you guys out and—

Pugly:  How would you structure that conversation if you were gonna use the formula?

Mickey:  Uhhh…

Pugly:  Starting with an observation. Like, what would you observe?

Mickey:  It seems like this rehearsal dinner is very important to you, and you really like want it to reflect well on our family. What would be the next for you? The next sentence?

Pugly:  I'm noticing that it does seem that our opinions are not being factored in as much as I'd like.  I feel a little left out. (The feelings part.)

Mickey:  Yeah, that's good. I feel like that's good.

Pugly:  How would you phrase the needs part?

Mickey:  Before we go to needs, I would also acknowledge, like, you know, I'm glad that you're feeling—

Pugly:  Like being an engaged member of this activity?

Mickey:  Yeah. And I hope you're happy with how everything turns out and stuff. We, you know, we want you to be part of the process, of course. You know? Then addressing the needs, I would say—

Pugly:  And you can also add too, like, you know, “The way that I view weddings is that this is kind of like us uniting as a family, and I really want to feel that sort of connection and that strong relationship with you. And I feel like this is one avenue that we can take to sort of strengthen our relationship.”

Mickey:  Yeah, I think that's great. And then I would say, like you know I, uh, I don’t know… I hope we can do better [laughs].

Pugly:  What needs?

Mickey:  Needs, um…

Pugly:  You know, I need to feel more included?

Mickey:  Yeah, I need to feel more included, and I need to feel like it's kind of about the union more than it is about like—

Pugly:  Any particular member?

Mickey:  Yeah, I'm struggling because this is the part where I would probably be offensive on accident.

Pugly:  Yeah. Yeah!

Mickey:  I would be like, you know, you're… I need you to not be selfish. On accident because I'm heated or emotional or whatever.

Pugly:  Right. This is why you plan out the conversation before you actually have it. Kind of rehearse.

Mickey:  Well what do you think you would say?

Pugly:  No, I feel like what you said, like, “I need to feel more included. I'm really feeling a little bit left out. I feel like it would benefit us both if we felt more like a family that was doing this together than as any individual working on this alone.” And I feel like kind of what you said about, I feel like this is more about showing that we are a united family than showing that any one member is like more emphasized than another.

Mickey:  Or is like doing well for themselves.

Pugly:  Yeah, no, but cut that, cut that.

Mickey:  Cut that ---- out.

Pugly:  Yeah, you can write that, and then you can just cross it out.

Mickey:  First draft.

Pugly:  Yeah, first draft. Do a rough draft first. Get all your anger out.

Mickey:  Yeah.

Pugly:  You know, have this conversation with your partner, practice it a bit, and maybe your partner should be the one to approach his mom about this—

Mickey:  Oh, I was thinking it was the partner this whole time.

Pugly:  Yeah, okay. Okay.

Mickey:  Yeah, no, I don't think you should have to talk to your mother-in-law, to be honest.

Pugly:  Well, I think maybe it should be a joint thing if we're coming at it from the perspective of…

Mickey:  Mmm… Go ahead.

Pugly:  She should at least be present for the conversation, so that it's appearing as though they want to be a united family rather than an individualistic kind of approach.

Mickey:  So you think if he went by himself, what would it look like to the mom?

Pugly:  It might seem that this is coming from him and not her. It's not an agreed-upon solution to the—

Mickey:  I mean if it's coming from her son, I think that's important enough. You know? I worry that if she's present as well, or if she's the one talking (I'm talking about the bride), then the mother-in-law will just be like, “This is the fiancé’s idea, it's not your idea. I know you better than this, son. You want what I want.” You know? I don’t know.

Pugly:  If she's present, she would say that?

Mickey:  If she's present, yeah.

Pugly:  I feel like she could say that either way.

Mickey:  She could say that either way, but for it to only be him present.

Pugly:  But then if she responds that way, then I feel like she isn't taking this the way that it's intended to be taken anyway. It's not being heard in the way that it should be.

Mickey:  Yeah.

Pugly:  And she's already kind of starting out on a biased perspective. Um… What about the last part though— the request part? How would you word that? What request would be made?

Mickey:  Next time we're working on something together for us or for the family, I would appreciate that my opinion is… what's the word?

Pugly:  Respected?

Mickey:  Not just respected, but even asked for. What's the word—consulted?

Pugly:  Oh, sure.

Mickey:  Or sought out, like it didn't seem like she even sought out their opinions or anything.

Pugly:  It was a unilateral decision that was made. That's not very…

Mickey:  Thoughtful? I don't know.

Pugly:  Thoughtful, yeah. It’s not thoughtful.

Mickey:  I mean. So the thing is, in my experience, people like this mother-in-law who, again, I know very little about her, but people that I've known who've done things like this, they will turn around and tell you I was being thoughtful, I was getting a better venue for you guys, I was helping you guys get a better reputation, and I was going to surprise you with it.

Pugly:  I think this is a difficult situation. I do not think you're selfish for wanting your wedding to reflect both of your personalities. So I think that kind of finalizes—

Mickey:  Sorry we can't have a magic word for you or a magic spell. People who are being difficult put you in a difficult place because now it seems like it's all on your shoulders to fix it. It's not all on your shoulders to fix it. You can only do your part. You can only communicate how you feel and what you need.

Pugly:  There's only so much you can control.

Mickey:  Yeah. Bippity, boppity boop.

Pugly:  Wish that worked.

Mickey:  I know, right?

Pugly:  But yeah, we are sorry that you're put in this position and hopefully the wedding goes as smooth as possible.

Mickey:  Yeah. And I think, even though we don't know the groom here, I think we both are kind of from afar, we know that he puts what you want as a priority, and you put what he wants as a priority. And I think, hopefully, past the wedding, you guys don't have anything to worry about in terms of what we want matters or not. So… It’s a difficult time.

Pugly:  Yeah, hopefully this is just a little hurdle to overcome.

Mickey:  Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Pugly:  As a team.

Mickey:  As a team. A union.

Pugly:  A hurdling team.

Mickey:  That would be fun. We should do something like that. Dude, you know what I really miss? Did you guys have sports days when you were little? Maybe it was just my private school.

Pugly:  Field day?

Mickey:  Oh, field day. We called them sports day. Yeah, where you went and just did a bunch of…

Pugly:  Activities?

Mickey:  Yeah!

Pugly:  Yeah.

Mickey:  Why don't we do that? We should rent out like a little park area and do that for adults.

Pugly:  I like kickball [laughs].

Mickey:  [laughs]

Pugly:  Can that be part of it?

Mickey:  Yeah.

Pugly:  Sorry, that sounded like a six-year-old right there.

Mickey:  I like kickball. I think we should do it. Listeners, let us know if you're in the area. You all know what area we live in, but… Well, some of you.

Pugly:  Some of you don't.

Mickey:  Yeah, some of you don't.

Pugly:  Like you from Utah.

Mickey:  Yeah, we're not from Utah.

Pugly:  Hopefully the Utah listener is still with us this time around.

Mickey:  Utah listener, we really feel—or I really feel—like you would have some interesting stories. Please, send them in!

Pugly:  Send them in. You can send them in via fake Instagram, Finsta, @secondhandtherapypodcast or via femail at secondhandtherapypodcast@gmail.com.

Mickey:  And again, we will say you can send it from your regular Instagram or email, and we won't tell anybody who you are. But to make you comfortable…

Pugly:  If you want to do this in espionage, then please send via femail or Finsta.

Mickey:  Are you expecting, like spy stories for real?

Pugly:  Ooh, that would be very cool.

Mickey:  Oh God, please, no spies follow us yet, but please follow us.

Pugly:  Dude, I do wonder why we have so many like Egypt and Norway and wherever else, like countries, like are we, are we being tracked? I do wonder a little bit.

Mickey:  Umm… I don't understand that jump, I'm sorry.

Pugly:  I just like, because I'm like why are people from all over the world listening to us? I don't either. I don't understand it either, but—

Mickey:  I don't either.

Pugly:  I don't either. I don't either. But like, whatever. I like kickball.

Mickey:  I get it. Yeah, like seriously, I want to organize something like that.

Pugly:  Okay. Should we propel forward?

Mickey:  Yeah.

Pugly:  We did have sort of a notion of a different structure for our podcast this time around, but I think we've maybe decided to go a different route. Are we gonna—

Mickey:  For today, I think we'll, um…

Pugly:  We'll just read some Reddit stories and give our takes. I think we gave a little bit of a therapeutic sort of advice there with the nonviolent communication style. Yeah, this one is a little bit… It's a bit relevant in my eyes to this story as well, but I want to get your take on that.

Mickey:  Alright.

Pugly:  Just a warning. This upcoming story contains some distressing content, so listen at your own discretion. Am I the asshole for resenting my unemployed boyfriend?

Mickey:  Give me more.

Pugly:  This one comes from Two Hot Takes. It was posted on February 27th of this year.

Mickey:  Alright.

Pugly:  So I, 29 female, have been with my boyfriend, who's 30 male, for over three years now. My boyfriend dropped out of university and since then, he has been working on and off in small companies (so he says) because I wasn't with him, so I'm not sure about the details. She's not sure about the details because she wasn't with him.

Mickey:  Is this Reesa Teesa?

Pugly:  No.

Mickey:  We need to talk about her.

Pugly:  We will. When I met him three years ago, he was unemployed, but he was regularly applying for jobs. I didn't think anything of it because after COVID, I know that a lot of people lost their jobs. A year into our relationship, he still couldn't secure a job and he was living off his parents and borrowing money from his siblings. A year later, he decided to move in with me (not the best decision I've made).

Mickey:  He decided to move in with her. Did she decide?

Pugly:  Well, she says it's not the best decision she's made, so I assume she made some part of that decision.

Mickey:  Alright.

Pugly:  I tried to be supportive and understanding and hoping that he would get a job, but it's now three years later and still nothing. I'm tired of not having a partner who can help me with the bills or someone who can take me on date nights or, better yet, buy me something for my birthday or Christmas. What does he do all day? Well, we never go on any dates because he doesn't have any money and I feel bad about it. So I don't know what he does all day. But I guess the benefit of the doubt would say he's applying to jobs and just not securing any.

Mickey:  I understand this is a terrible economy. I completely get it. I'm so scared to lose my job. But go work at the bakery, work as a restaurant service person, what are they called? Work in the restaurant industry, just like anything, even work for the Amazon overlords. Do anything, literally do anything. Yeah, this is sounding just like the plot of Insecure, to be honest with you.

Pugly:  I tried talking to him about it, and he either says that he's applying for jobs or he gets defensive, saying that I'm using his insecurity to blame him and make him feel bad. I don't know whether he's applying for jobs or even trying. At this point, I feel like this has caused me to become irrational and irritable towards him. I find myself snapping because I'm tired of doing everything by myself. I can find myself resenting him and wanting more alone time. It's getting to a point where all I think about is the fact that he's unemployed and can't be a supportive partner.

Mickey:  So I have a question: Does she say anything about he does all the work around the house, or like he does something for her? I mean, it doesn't have to be monetary or financial.

Pugly:  Like that there's some benefit to this relationship.

Mickey:  Yeah.

Pugly:  Well, he's gonna be 31 soon, and he has no job, no money, no savings, no career plans. I've had a career for the past 10 years, and I've been progressing at work. I have savings, and I want to start a family soon, but not without a partner who can support me. I feel like I'm in a rough situation because he can't move back in with his parents anymore, and he doesn't have a job. Ultimately, he will be homeless. I do still care about him, so that will be too brutal to kick him out.

Mickey:  Why? Why can't he move in with his parents?

Pugly:  I don't know. She doesn't really expand on why he wasn't able to move in with his parents. Maybe there's some… Maybe they're trying to get him to be more independent, perhaps?

Mickey:  But they threw him on another woman.

Pugly:  Yeah.

Mickey:  Another person—it's her responsibility now. I mean, I don't know if that's the end of it, but I mean I'll just interject still. Like if I were her, I would give him like three months, two months maybe. Two or three months.

Pugly:  An ultimatum.

Mickey:  Yeah, I don't think ultimatums are healthy all the time, but I think if you've waited three years and he's now like getting mad at you for checking in… Three years! Three years!

Pugly:  Three years is a long time.

Mickey:  It's not like five months, like six months, and you're seeing him struggle. At this point you're not even like sure if he's actually applying, which, if you have that suspicion, it's coming from somewhere. And he won't get any job except for like the things he's applying to, like the kinds of things he wants. Like what is it called—beggars can't be choosers? Obviously I want everybody to have a job they love and feel comfortable in and grow in. But in the meantime—

Pugly:  And be passionate about.

Mickey:  Yeah. In the meantime, though, like you gotta do something, you gotta help out. Like you can't just mooch off of her.

Pugly:  Oh! She says, please don't get me wrong. Although he stays at home, he cleans mops, takes care of our dog, he does all the necessary maintenance around the house and our car. He takes care of me when I'm sick and constantly tends to me, comes with me to my regular hospital appointments, as I have PCOS and diabetes. We argue over little things, mainly because of our cultural differences. I sometimes hate coming home because all he wants to do is sit at home while I want to go out and enjoy things together. He has a problem when I do go out with my friends and constantly needs me to send him messages or call him. Or when I go out with my friends, he has an emergency and when I don't reply straight away, he'll get upset when I'm home because he says I don't care about him.

Mickey:  Oof. I feel like he's made her his entire life, like he can't even go get a job because she's his entire life.

Pugly:  You think that's it?

Mickey:  I don't know.

Pugly:  I don't know what the—

Mickey:  Or she's his safe space is what I mean.

Pugly:  Oh, like this is a safety behavior?

Mickey:  Yeah, I honestly think, like you know, I feel for him, but I think he's avoiding a lot of things by just making… like being amongst safe things, especially her and at home.

Pugly:  So he's comfortable… He's comfortable.

Mickey:  He's comfortable.

Pugly:  She says he doesn't like to go out because he feels bad because he doesn't have any money. He doesn't mooch off me, as he always tries to be as cheap as he can, and I don't spend that much money on him. However, this is also another thing that makes me frustrated. I grew up poor and worked myself up so that I can afford a decent lifestyle, and I want to provide a good life for my kids, if I have any. He, on the other hand, is very stingy and always complains how expensive things are. He'll insist on going to another shop if something is cheaper by a dollar or two, even though it's my money and I don't have an issue. When I need to buy something for the house, he constantly wants to buy secondhand things because it's cheaper. As I said, I grew up poor, and now I am in a situation where I can buy things brand new. When I shop at Zara or H&M, he calls me expensive. Is H&M—

Mickey:  No.

Pugly:  Okay… ‘Cause I was like isn’t that more affordable?

Mickey:  Yeah, I mean it's a terrible company, but when I buy from them, I'm like, “This is so cheap.”

Pugly:  “This is saving money.”

Mickey:  Yeah, I'm saving money.

Mickey:  She says he calls her expensive, and if I buy food from certain supermarkets, he also makes comments and tells me I'm being expensive. We constantly argue, and there have been a few things that have happened in our relationship. (He has made me do things that I didn't want to do in the bedroom. I don't want to get into it here.)

Mickey:  Ooh. I don’t want to hear it.

Pugly:  And it constantly comes up when we argue. When we argue, we both call each other names and sometimes have become physical too.

Mickey:  Oh, this is like taking a turn.

Pugly:  Indeed, indeed. She says I'm worried that I won't find anyone else, as I have a few health problems. He knows all my health problems and has been my rock when I've been my worst. This is the sole reason I have stayed with him.

Mickey:  No, baby, no.

Pugly:  Yeah, this is not it.

Mickey:  That should not be the only reason you stay with someone. There are plenty of people out there who would love to be with you.

Pugly:  I hear this kind of… I've heard this a few times.

Mickey:  Yeah.

Pugly:  And I've thought it a few times.

Mickey:  Oh, no, don't think that.

Pugly:  Yeah, no. Not like to this degree, but I've thought, like because of health problems, like I'm not worthy of—

Mickey:  Like you just need to settle for whoever—

Pugly:  —will tolerate it, yeah.

Mickey:  No, please do not feel that way. Listeners! Listeners, you deserve the world. You really do. And like if someone, I mean she mentioned PCOS and diabetes. Oh my God. That’s it?

Pugly:  Very common.

Mickey:  That's it? Like seriously? That's what you think is such a burden to your partner?

Pugly:  Yeah.

Mickey:  And you're like, wow, like, he really like takes care of me. That's your partner's job, like you would do the same for him, come on. Sorry for getting frustrated with you, girl.

Pugly:  Yeah, I mean. It is frustrating, though, because you know that she deserves better and she's just settling for this because she's lacking the self-confidence to realize that, like this, PCOS and diabetes is not a reason to stay with somebody who's getting into physical altercations with you.

Mickey:  Yeah, ooh, that's not good.

Pugly:  I know, that was a bit of a turn there.

Mickey:  Yeah.

Pugly:  I was kind of not expecting that either. She says—Lastly, she says I am also getting older. I'm 30 next year and I want to have kids and be in a loving relationship. My mom and dad were toxic towards each other but stayed together. I don't want a relationship like that. My parents are also very stingy, and I don't want to repeat that in my adult life. Be honest, help.

Mickey:  So this is something you and I have talked about before. Like we've noticed that someone who grew up with like a lot of difficult things will view anything better than that as a win. And like they'll be so aware. They'll be so like aware that they want better than what their parents had or what was done to them or whatever. But then they like describe their current partner and they're like—

Pugly:  It's giving similar vibes.

Mickey:  Yeah, it's like giving similar vibes, like I don't want that to happen, like how my parents whatever, or—

Pugly:  Like I don't want this to escalate further than what it's been.

Mickey:  Yeah. But like in the same breath, they'll be like you know what, but it's better than that and so… Or like you know what, they accept me, but that shouldn't be it. Like you shouldn't just expect the bare minimum. Like, okay, your partner loves you, that's like the minimum of a relationship. Oh, your partner takes care of you when you're sick? Minimum! Like, come on, you deserve so much more than that. You deserve to feel like cherished. You deserve to feel like your partner wants to work hard for a good future with you, right? Like you're not the only one working hard. And okay, also, like you're the one who's chronically ill, which I know, again, like you can definitely have a disability and have a chronic illness and still live a full life, but you're pointing out that you're chronically ill and he's so good to stay with you. Or like you might not get better, like get a better partner than that. But at the same time, he's not chronically ill and he's staying home? He's not getting a job?

Pugly:  Well we don't know his health—

Mickey:  She doesn't mention it. She doesn't mention anything. I feel like that would be pertinent information.

Pugly:  Yeah. I mean, I don't know. I don't know what his circumstances are, but I know it sounds like he's not pulling his weight in this relationship, at least the way she needs, and I don't know how much of that has been communicated to him. But I do worry, like when we were talking about the nonviolent communication approach before. There are, I think, certain circumstances or certain people that it's not worth even—

Mickey:  Trying with?

Pugly:  Yeah. And this may be one. If it's getting physical, I think that's, that's a reason… There's a poster on Reddit, actually, that is I think she's like a crisis counselor that often responds to posts like this. She often mentions the fact that it's not recommended to do couples counseling—

Mickey:  With someone who's violent? Or who’s gotten violent with you?

Pugly:  Yeah, or has, like narcissistic behaviors being displayed.

Mickey:  Yeah.

Pugly:  Things like that. And the way she's talking about him in her comments here, she says, “He used to hit me and I got fed up, and finally I hit him back and he stopped. I had no choice. I was so hurt. My dad hit me when I was younger, and now I feel like I turned into my dad, but I had to defend myself.” And then the other posters are telling her, you know, hitting back is not the same as hitting someone.

Mickey:  Yeah.

Pugly:  There is a term for this. It's called reactive abuse and oftentimes, like, abusers, will turn that against you and call you—

Mickey:  An abuser?

Pugly:  Will call themselves the victim and call you the abuser, yeah.

Mickey:  Yeah.

Pugly:  When it escalates to that level, but there's usually a lot of abuse that's been sustained up to that point before—

Mickey:  Yeah.

Pugly:  —the true victim gets, you know,

Mickey:  Fed up.

Pugly:  Yeah. Gets violent themselves.

Mickey:  Okay, yeah, like I don't think you should stay in this relationship. Like, honestly, I don't know. I haven't really thought like for me, if someone, or even if I, get violent in a relationship, like if one of us gets violent in a relationship, that's it. Like that's a line you don't cross. I don't know. What do you think like can people get come back from that?

Pugly:  I think they have to want to change themselves, and it sounds like there's been very little movement on change in this man over the three years she's known him in any sort of domain.

Mickey:  Yeah, like, none of the times that he attacked her, or even the time where she attacked him back, was a wake-up call for him to be like, “Wait, what am I doing?”

Pugly:  She said, “But now he brags and tells me how much he's changed because he doesn't hit me anymore. What I did was wrong. I've never hit anyone before. I felt awful that I even did that, and I still do, but I'm glad I did. Otherwise, I would be in an even worse situation.” She says also that she still feels bad that she hits him or hit him that time, and that he “uses that against me and says I'm the same as him. I've never physically hit him before he hit me.” So I think this points to the fact that this man has no accountability.

Mickey:  Yeah.

Pugly:  And I am not sure that it's worth continuing to pursue this like relationship.

Mickey:  Like salvaging it, yeah.

Pugly:  There's no, there's nothing to salvage.

Mickey:  Yeah, no. Like, I was gonna say, give him some time, we give him a two-month notice, like kick him out now.

Pugly:  Yeah. I think, I think you need to let this man go. But I think you need to make a safe plan beforehand.

Mickey:  Yeah.

Pugly:  There are, you know, resources for doing that online, and ebbie45 has a list of them, I think, on her, or their page. (I don't know what their gender is, but…)

Mickey:  Ebbie45?

Pugly:  Ebbie45. E-B-B-I-E-45 on Reddit.

Mickey:  On Reddit. Okay, yeah. And you can just Google it too, like say, “how to get out, safe plans.” Like I think I've seen a lot of people post about, like, “This is what helped me. This is how you get out.”

Pugly:  Yeah, I wouldn't announce the plans, though, to your partner.

Mickey:  Yeah.

Pugly:  That can make things more unsafe, and it is usually, it's a more unsafe period when you are planning to leave an abuser than, you know, other—

Mickey:  Normal periods, like even more unsafe. Yeah, make sure you have support, like make sure people are aware of what's happening in your life. Like that's another thing about abuse, I think, like it's very isolating and the more you let it isolate you, the more susceptible you are to abuse.

Pugly:  Right, it's a cycle.

Mickey:  Yeah, it's a cycle. So, like, you know, make sure you're opening up to your friends, opening up to your family members that you trust, like don't, don't let this isolate you, because that way, he'll just manipulate you even further to thinking like, yeah, this is the best you're gonna get.

Pugly:  Yeah. Alright. Did we have any lasting or last-minute thoughts on this one? Lasting thoughts either?

Mickey:  Honestly, it was like really sad.

Pugly:  She says in one of her comments someone else had commented talking about how they were in a similar situation, and it took them four years to get out of the relationship, and she responded, “I feel so stupid. I'm nearly 30, and I still don't have the courage to end the relationship.” First of all, I think she's using these things of like health conditions and age as like, like rationale for staying in this relationship of, “I'm worthless if I don't continue this relationship because otherwise I'm single, and I've got these health issues” and whatever, but that is not… No, you deserve much better than that. And I, I don't know how to like, encourage you to seek out—I think therapy would be very much a good thing for you to pursue if you're not already doing that.

Mickey:  Yeah, I agree, and if you can't access therapy, I think one of the things that helps me the most is like, would I sit back while my friend was going through this, or would I say something?

Pugly:  What would you say to your friend if they were in this position?

Mickey:  I would say you deserve so much better. You don't deserve this. Like this is not a good situation. That's why I say like, again, it's not good to let yourself be isolated when you're in this situation. But if you don't have access to that, then think of yourself as someone else. Would you have empathy and compassion for that person enough to tell them, “Get out”? Because you should, like, like most people have that empathy for other people, but they don't have it for themselves. You need to extend that empathy towards yourself.

Pugly:  I think that's a good ending. I think you should give yourself compassion and treat yourself like you would a good friend.

Mickey:  Yeah.

Pugly:  This last one is called “My girlfriend got hurt at Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu. I feel terrible, but don't think it was on purpose. She's mad at me.” What do you think?

Mickey:  What? What was not on purpose?

Pugly:  That she got hurt at Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu.

Mickey:  What? He hurt her?

Pugly:  Do you want me to read the story?

Mickey:  Yeah, sorry, I'm just confused. This person’s—

Pugly:  This is another Two Hot Takes post.

Mickey:  Yeah, go ahead.

Pugly:  January of this year. I started taking Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu in 2021 as a way to get into better shape after the lockdowns. I had joined a regular gym, and I also started going to a Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu Academy on the advice of my cousin, who had started going to one. He lives in another province. However, he was able to recommend one where I live. I'm only a blue belt, but I really enjoy it. I started dating my girlfriend last year, and I thought Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu was something we could do together. She was reluctant. I got her to come observe me a few times. She was still reluctant. Then she told me about a women-only class for beginners at a different academy. Part of why she was reluctant was that there are currently no women at my academy. We have had women before, but they always drop out and stop coming after a while.

Mickey:  I wonder why.

Pugly:  I didn't think the women's only class was a good idea. Plus, the idea was for us to do something together, so I convinced her to join my academy. She joined almost two months ago. In that time, she went with me every time she wasn't working on the same evenings I was free and would go to the academy. She never went alone, though. A few times, she complained to me that the others at the academy were rough, but it's a contact sport, and I convinced her to stay after she wanted to quit. Last week I had to work a couple of days when she wasn't working. I tried to convince her to go without me. The first time she didn't, but the second time I got her to go. She got hurt that time. She was rolling with a blue belt, and he got her into an arm bar. She says he went right into it and didn't go slow or give her time to tap. She broke her arm.

Mickey:  Oh my God.

Pugly:  (Left ulna near the elbow.) He says he was just trying to show her how fast things happen in real life and didn't think her arm would break like that. She said the others should know because of the size and weight difference and he should not have done the arm bar that forceful or fast. I believe him that it was an accident. However, I feel terrible for my girlfriend.

Mickey:  Okay… [laughs]

Pugly:  I have only talked to her once since she got hurt. It was mostly her being upset, and I didn't really get to say anything. We were talking about moving in together. Now she said she doesn't want to. She said the others at the academy were rough and should have known not to go so hard because she's smaller than them. It's a contact sport and one of the purposes is self-defense. I do not like that she got hurt, but I also don't believe the blue belt or any of the others were rough on purpose. She won't talk to me. I don't even know what's going to happen with our relationship. She said she is mad at herself for not quitting when she wanted to, but she's mad at me too, and at our instructor. I don't know why she's mad at him. I feel awful that she got hurt, but at the same time it's a contact sport and injuries can happen. I don't think it was on purpose or anything like that.

Mickey:  Okay, if someone's reluctant to do something, and again and again, you push them into doing it and then they get hurt doing it, of course she's going to be mad at you!

Pugly:  Agreed. The number of times he says, “I convinced her, I convinced her, I convinced her.” I'm like dude, why are you having to convince? Why don't you just let her have her own life? She said she was happy to do the Brazilian Jiu-jitsu—and I don't know why we keep putting Brazilian in front of it—but the Brazilian Jiu-jitsu with the women's only class. What is wrong with that? I don't get why people want to have a hobby that they've done for years at a time and then subject their partner to it as though they're going to be an expert overnight. It doesn’t work like that.

Mickey:  Yeah, and again, he said that he didn't want her to do the women's only one, because the whole point is to do a hobby together. Well then, why did you convince her to go by herself last week?

Pugly:  Yeah, if it's a hobby together, why is she going on her own?

Mickey:  Yeah, and if she can go on her own once without you to the men's one or the regular one, sorry, why can't she go to the women's one?

Pugly:  [laughs] The regular one. It is essentially the men's one.

Mickey:  Yeah. I think, especially if your partner is telling you, “I'm scared, it seems like everyone is bigger than me, and this is—I'm a beginner, I want to start—" She's even willing to do it, but the women's version, so maybe people are smaller in that class. She's literally willing to partake in your hobby, but just do it at separate times, at least in the beginning.

Pugly:  Yeah, at least until she brushes up and gets knowledgeable on how to do Brazilian Jiu-jitsu.

Mickey:  It's not about you, it's about her safety. She literally said she's not comfortable doing that one (the regular one) because everyone's bigger and they seem pretty rough on each other. It's about safety. It's not about, “Oh, I don't want to get sweaty because it's sweaty in the men's one,” like, whatever. It's not about that, it's about literally her safety. You have to prioritize that over anything.

Pugly:  But it's a contact sport.

Mickey:  Oh yeah.

Pugly:  Contact sport does not mean broken arm.

Mickey:  I'm curious he never said if anyone else broke their arm or ever got injured.

Pugly:  He never did say, probably because it's the first or, I don't know, maybe the first that he's observed. But yeah, he also says that she got mad at the instructor who you'd think part of their job would be knowing limits of the human body.

Mickey:  Yeah, not letting two people who are in different weight classes go against each other, or even if you really have to, be like, “Hey, your opponent is a lot smaller than you. Please—”

Pugly:  “—Tone it down.”

Mickey:  Yeah, like geez.

Pugly:  Yeah, the best comment here. whatever_man_____ said, “Well, it's pretty obvious why women stop coming to this place.”

Mickey:  Seriously.

Pugly:  You said the same.

Mickey:  Seriously.

Pugly:  Yeah, no, wonder. Someone else said, “He did it on purpose 99% sure. Her being a white belt, he should have known to go easy. Yeah, injuries can happen, but it seems like he put more effort than he should have. Also, if I were you, I would look up the gym and the instructor to see how legit he is. Even in professional fights or BJJ matches, it rarely happens because they all give their opponents time to tap and they're doing it to win.”

Mickey:  Yeah.

Pugly:  “Seems like the blue should not be a blue belt. That's what makes me think he did it on purpose or doesn't know what he's doing. So, yeah, I think you're the asshole.”

Mickey:  That's a good point. I would have never known that because I don't know anything about this sport. I don't either.

Pugly:  But hey, he seems knowledgeable. Foreign-Football. He says—the response here was: “My instructor's lineage is good.”

Mickey:  [laughs] Oh, that's gold! That's good. This person is fun-ny. Does that mean he's like Brazilian or Asian, or what? What's the origins of this?

Pugly:  Of Brazilian jiu-jitsu?

Mickey:  Mhm.

Pugly:  Well, jiu-jitsu is a Japanese term that means “gentle art.” I looked it up, because I was like, “Can we not just use the term ‘jiu-jitsu’?”

Mickey:  Yeah, so it's a different version of jiu-jitsu?

Pugly:  Yeah.

Mickey:  Is it like rougher?

Pugly:  I would presume, but I don't know that for a fact.

Mickey:  And he doesn't even have the awareness to be like, “I know why she's mad at me and I feel terrible about that.”

Pugly:  He’s like, “I feel terrible, but it's a contact sport.” Like bro. And I would assume there would be noises too going on, like when your arm is about to break that you'd probably be in kind of distress— [responding to Brazilian jiu-jitsu video]

Mickey:  Is this intercourse? Why did he want his girlfriend to be part of this men's only team?

Pugly:  I don't know.

Mickey:  Okay. Anyway, what I was trying to say is one of the most important things in a relationship, I think, is not blending you and your partner into one person, and acknowledging that they're a different person with different wants, with different strengths, with different weaknesses, with different—

Pugly:  A broken arm being one of them.

Mickey:  Yeah, with different traumas, with different fears. Like, you can't project yourself onto your partner. Being in a relationship isn't how you get your perfect self. He wants his relationship to be me and my partner to do a hobby together. Well, maybe your partner doesn't want that. You can't make your partner into the perfect person, perfect relationship. I don't know if I'm saying that.

Pugly:  Are you saying that his interest shouldn't be her interest, or vice versa?

Mickey:  Well, I just feel like people use relationships to glow up, you know what I mean?

Pugly:  I don't think there's a problem with—

Mickey:  No. How do I say this? He did not care that she didn't want to do it.

Pugly:  No, that I agree. Forcefully “inviting” someone to your hobbies or interests or whatever is not a respectful invitation.

Mickey:  Yeah, just because his idea of an ideal relationship is we do this hobby together, doesn't mean she has to accept it.

Pugly:  So maybe a way for him to understand this would be, since he feels so terrible that she broke her arm and the way he phrases it, that she broke her arm and not her arm was broke.

Mickey:  Oh, he said that?

Pugly:  Yeah, he said that.

Mickey:  He’s like, “Well, she should know, she signed up for jiu-jitsu. It's a contact sport.”

Pugly:  Not jiu-jitsu, it's Brazilian. But yeah, since he feels so terrible about it, maybe an analogy could be when you're asking someone to do a hobby with you, just think of it like if you ask them, hey, do you want your arm to be broken? And they say no, you don't keep convincing them that like, oh yeah, you do, you do, you really do.

Mickey:  No, that's actually a good point, because anytime you do anything, you sign up for anything, there's a waiver and they're like you're signing up away, you're acknowledging that you're blah blah, you could get hurt, and so when you ask someone, like you said, to do Brazilian jiu-jitsu with you, you're asking them are you willing to break your arm to do a hobby with me?

Pugly:  Yeah, like not even just this hobby, but like just think of anything that you're asking your girlfriend to do with you—

Mickey:  Like what's the worst-case scenario? That's what you're asking of them.

Pugly:  Yeah. And ask them straight up: do you want this? And if they say no, do not keep pestering them.

Mickey:  Yeah, I'm trying to think of another example to see if that holds.

Pugly:  “Hey. Do you want to have sex?”

Mickey:  You could have a baby! You could get an STD if I didn't tell you I have an STD. What else? What’s the worst-case scenario?

Pugly:  You hate it. All: [laughs]

Mickey:  That's funny.

Pugly:  Yeah, and then she says, no, well, you don't get to keep saying, yeah, you're going to hate it, but let's do it anyway, yeah. Or yeah, you're going to get a baby, but…

Mickey:  Yeah, no. I mean, wow.

Pugly:  You know, we have words for that.

Mickey:  What's the word?

Pugly:  Well, we can call it breaking an arm.

Mickey:  [laughs] What?

Pugly:  That's what the other analogy was.

Mickey:  Oh, oh, oh.

Pugly:  So I'm like trying to… for those who don't want another trigger warning.

Mickey:  Ohh. Yes, yes.

Pugly:  We did not have a trigger warning on our first episode, where there was mention of…

Mickey:  Oh yeah, that's true.

Pugly:  But now we're going, we're going to start doing trigger warnings. That's, we're cool.

Mickey:  Trigger warning: This episode has trigger warnings.

Pugly:  Isn't trigger warning, like for people who've, like, had gun violence bestowed upon them, like do they not get trigger warnings with the word “trigger warning”?

Mickey:  You know, actually I thought about this. Whenever I'm scrolling on like a social media website and there's like trigger warning, war mention, I'm like, I'm triggered, thank you.

Pugly:  You're already triggered by it.

Mickey:  I'm already there, thanks.

Pugly:  Yeah, but like I guess, if it goes into more graphic detail, it's like more triggering than just the initial trigger. It’s kike getting triggered by like a BB gun versus like a real full-fledged bullet.

Mickey:  Yeah, yeah, yikes. Also like living in the same age, just walking around, you just get triggered. Everything is triggering.

Pugly:  Everything's triggering.

Mickey:  Literally everything's triggering.

Pugly:  The world is a trigger. Wow, that's a great note to end on.

Mickey:  But like—

Pugly:  Well, we're not ending on it.

Mickey:  Then yeah, we're not ending on it.

Pugly:  Some dissonance.

Mickey:  If the world is a trigger, then the world is exposure therapy. So get out there.

Pugly:  No, because exposure therapy is guided by an expert.

Mickey:  Well, but it's free exposure therapy if you do it right.

Pugly:  If you do it right.

Mickey:  Yeah, wow.

Pugly:  Wow.

Mickey:  I can tell you like I would be right there with her, I would not…

Pugly:  Would you want to go to Brazilian jiu-jitsu with me?

Mickey:  Actually like no. I'll go horseback riding with you, which is as dangerous probably.

Pugly:  Really? Equine therapy?

Mickey:  Equine therapy, yeah.

Pugly:  Equestrianism.

Mickey:  [laughs] The way you said that.

Pugly:  Why did I—

Mickey:  Equestrianism. Because it just sounds like a sexuality or something.

Pugly:  I am equestrian.

Mickey:  Oh.

Pugly:  Well, we appreciate all our listeners. If you have any questions or comments or stories for us to tell in our next episode, please do send us an email or an Instagram message.

Mickey:  Yep, we'd love to hear from you. We love drama.

Pugly:  We love drama.

Mickey:  We love to discuss other people's lives.

Pugly:  I thrive on drama.

Mickey:  Literally. Is that a quote, or you're just saying that?

Pugly:  It’s a quote that I made up.

Mickey:  It's your quote.

Pugly:  It's my quote, TM.

Mickey:  Seriously, we live for hearing your stories. Thank you for the listeners who sent in compliments, who sent in the story. We really appreciate it. Yeah, let us have a reason to talk. Give us another reason to talk, to hear ourselves talk.

Pugly:  Indeed, indeed. Alright, peace be upon you.

Mickey:  Peace out.