34. The Adventure of Life: Another Conversation with Charmaine Heard

In this captivating episode of ABWilson's Heart of the Matter, host Aderonke Bademosi Wilson welcomes back the delightful Charmaine Heard. Known for her playful spirit and warm demeanor, Charmaine shares her insights on self-discovery, personal growth, and the importance of playfulness in our everyday lives.

We first met Charmaine in episode 29, where our conversation started with the usual questions. But it quickly turned into a heartfelt exchange about the loss of a spouse—a deeply personal experience we both share. Together, we explored how we found ways to cope during one of life’s most challenging times.

As we wrapped up, we agreed to return and continue the conversation another day. Today is the day. During today's discussion, Charmaine emphasizes the significance of maintaining a playful attitude throughout life. She reflects on her ability to find humor in everyday situations, illustrating how this perspective can transform mundane experiences into joyful adventures.

Charmaine opens up about her past experiences in singing and acting, revealing a side of herself that many may not know. She discusses how embracing her playful nature has helped her reconnect with her authentic self.

One of Charmaine's proudest accomplishments is her commitment to showing up for herself every day. She shares her morning routine and the importance of checking in with oneself throughout the day to nurture personal well-being.

Charmaine highlights her strength in actively listening to others, creating a safe space for them to be seen and heard. She believes that genuine connection is vital for making a difference in people's lives.

Reflecting on her journey, Charmaine shares a recent challenge where she found herself slipping back into old patterns of people-pleasing. She discusses how she used the tools she teaches her clients to navigate this difficult moment and emerge stronger.

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Transcript

Aderonke (00:01.196)
Welcome to another edition of AB Wilson's Heart of the Matter, a podcast that uses overwhelmingly positive questions to learn about our guests, where every episode uncovers extraordinary stories of triumph, growth, and empowerment. Hi, I'm Aderonke, Badamosi Wilson, and my guest on today's show is Charmaine Heard. Charmaine is playful, lighthearted, warm. Charmaine.

Welcome back to Heart of the Matter.

Charmaine (00:33.507)
I'm glad to be back. Thank you for having me.

Aderonke (00:37.322)
And so Charmaine, you and I started this conversation several weeks ago and we talked about something completely unexpected. after our conversation, we decided not to continue with the interview at that time and agreed to come back because that conversation in and of itself was extremely powerful. And I wanted to really just honor the space.

that we had created at that time. So today's interview, I think we will take it wherever it will go. And I'm going to start with your descriptors. You said playful, lighthearted, warm. Tell me about them. What does that mean to you?

Charmaine (01:24.355)
So I am very playful and I remember you asking in our last interview, what would people not know about you? And I think, well, my friends may know, but I'm super playful and I can find humor in most things. And so I believe that life is worth enjoying. I really do, that might sound cliche, but I try to live...

in playfulness as much as I can. And so I've learned even more how to be playful even with myself. But I've always had this like side to me that was just super playful even as a kid that I just I would hide because everything's so serious all the time, but I'm not I'm not as serious as most people think I am.

Aderonke (02:18.19)
So what does playful look like? Like, what, describe that.

Charmaine (02:21.945)
what does playful look like for me? Humor, like finding the humor in things, really not taking things so seriously. I can step back and just observe and then start to laugh because I'm thinking we're just human being humans. I am silly when it comes to taking pictures. I'm not one who loves to take pictures.

And so when my friends are trying to take pictures with me, I'm pretty silly with it. And I looked back as a kid and I would do the same thing. And I was made to be serious. Smile, right? Smile, you know, whatever, don't be so silly. Actually, like going outside and just like enjoying the outside. It's like a playful nature of being outside in nature itself that I really enjoy. Conversations.

where we're laughing and enjoying one another, feels playful to me. Okay, so I always think things are an adventure. So my friends are not surprised when they hear me say, what a new adventure. this is fun. An adventure to me could be anything. It could be going to the grocery store, to go into a theater, to go in camping, to whatever it feels like.

It feels like an adventure. So that's what I mean by playful.

Aderonke (03:54.271)
Thank you. And so I'm going to ask you to share three interesting things about yourself that our listeners may not know and your friends will be surprised to learn.

Charmaine (04:06.307)
So my friends who have not known me for a very long time would probably not know that I used to sing.

Charmaine (04:17.983)
and for at least half of my life. And goodness, I'm telling on myself right now, because I'm sure people will go look it up. But I used to sing and I actually was with a group who made years ago, years ago, years ago, a CD. And so we have, and I'm dating myself, a CD out. And I was in a play that

I was able to walk the red carpet on. I walked a red carpet and our play won best play of the year for that year. It was called the Velocity Awards. And I toured, I toured with that play. I could say that I performed at the Kennedy Center and all these other theaters that was a dream come true. I did not think that would ever happen, but yeah, so I have a bit of.

singing in my background, acting in my background, and most people would not even know that, that have known me for the past 10 years. They probably would have no idea because I don't talk about it. don't sing anymore, at least publicly to get paid. So yes, I think those are two things. So singing and acting, what else could they not know about me? No one would know about me.

I can be extremely shy, which is really interesting because I don't mind people at all. I love being around people, but initially, I'm extremely shy when it comes to...

Charmaine (06:05.699)
Maybe mostly if there's meeting someone of the opposite sex in a romantic way. Most people would think that I'm very comfortable, but I can be really shy about that. So I'm not one of those women that would be forward or I'm very comfortable in my own skin, but I'm very shy about because I was thinking, well, what is the shyness? Where does the shyness show up mostly?

It's if I'm interacting with a male or a man or like if you're in a setting with like a whole bunch of single people, I can get really shy around that.

Aderonke (06:47.224)
Thank you for sharing. And can you tell us about a recent accomplishment or success that you're particularly proud of?

Charmaine (06:48.547)
Sure.

Charmaine (06:55.629)
Yes, I can. So, I'm really proud of...

Charmaine (07:06.851)
But this is going to sound really probably basic, but I'm really proud of being able to show up for myself every day. I feel like that is a success is to come back into it every day. And so instead of thinking of just one moment, it's like all of the moments in which I come back.

to myself.

Aderonke (07:27.948)
And what does showing up for yourself look like?

Charmaine (07:32.221)
so I'm, I have a morning routine of really connecting with me. And so, when things, and as life goes, the day goes on, I'm always checking in with myself. So first thing in the morning, I'm checking in with me. And throughout the day, I'm checking in with me and I didn't do that before. And so I feel like that is the biggest success is to be able to stay or reconnect with myself.

so that I'm able to connect with others well. And even when things are hard to know how to like take some time and just be with me, because the one thing I know is other people may leave you, but you never leave yourself. And so I think the biggest success that I can say now is that I no longer self -abandon. So that would be my biggest and greatest success is I've learned how to stay with me, stay connected with me.

and no longer leave me for anything or anyone.

Aderonke (08:35.17)
self -abandoned. That's term I haven't heard before.

Charmaine (08:39.542)
Mm -hmm.

Aderonke (08:42.562)
How do we self -abandon? How do people just leave themselves?

Charmaine (08:48.545)
Yeah, when we are, I call it going against yourself. it's, it's, when you're out of integrity. So I feel like integrity is when you're holding your whole self and being truthful and truthful and honest with you. self -abandon looks like, agreeing to something and you know that you are not agreeable to it, but in order to, to know, not to keep that person in your good graces or for fear or for whatever you're willing to give yourself away in order to.

being in what you perceive a better, a good relationship with someone else, where you go against, your knowing your true knowing about something and go, go with someone else's wanting you to do something. I think that's self abandonment. so it's anything that goes against your, who you are as a person and what you want.

So it can be as simple as you really, really don't want to go to some particular event, but because you were pressured into going, you go and then you don't enjoy yourself and it ends up being a mess. You've abandoned your truth in order to make someone else happy. And I call that self abandonment. So I hope that explains it, but I lived in it's really people pleasing. That's what it is. Self abandonment is people pleasing.

instead of really checking in with you to see what you want. And so at the end of the day, I no longer feel the need to please others. I need to make sure that I found my own pleasure within myself first.

Aderonke (10:32.568)
Thank you for that explanation. It definitely cleared it up for me. And people pleasing, I think, is a good descriptor. So tell us about a time when you made a difference in another's life. What were the circumstances? Paint a picture for me.

Charmaine (10:54.167)
Yeah. When I thought about this question and I love this question so much, I think a lot of us want to just make a difference, make a difference in the world, change the world and all of these things. And I thought about in my corporate life, what happened and moments that I was proud of in my coaching life. And I thought, what is the moment? And I pulled together all of these moments. And I think it's, if I were to collectively say,

There are lots of moments. But what I mean by that is all of the moments in which when it comes down to it, I just sat with people and I was able to just see them and hear them for who they are without anything else. And I feel like there were many moments where that was done for me, but I was able to do that for others. And so I feel like I get to, and I feel so lucky and so blessed. I really do.

But I get to sit with people every day, Monday through Friday, and I get to hold space for them. And I think that just makes a difference, period. Just being able to listen to them. So I'm not sure that I have really big moment, but it's showing up and listening and hearing people.

Aderonke (12:14.944)
And what is it about you? What are the key strengths and qualities you rely on to make a difference in this space?

Charmaine (12:24.515)
So my key strengths is the ability to actively listen, to sit and just listen. I feel like I can really, have a heart for people and I think that's a strength. I really truly do. And that was one of the things that I tried to shy away from at Aronka. And I really had a really hard time accepting that I was a big love bug. But I think my...

biggest strength is I really do have a heart for people. I have heart for humanity and the human side of us. And so as much as I want to deny that part of me, I've been able to fully embrace it for the most part. And that leaves me very open and susceptible to a lot of hurt and pain, right? Because people can be, not always, but can be very hurtful or messy or use that strength.

thinking that it's a weakness, but I really feel like my heart for people is really strong. And so that's a really big strength. I am empathetic. I do have empathy, but now I know what to do with that empathy. So I think that's a strength as well. One of the strengths that I've learned to build is not taking things personally. So I've had to lean into

really working on not taking things personal and understanding that what people do is always about them and not about me. But that's something that I had to, know, that's a muscle that I've had to continue to work on. So I would say those are like big strengths for me around how I'm able to connect with others well is by having the wisdom to say, this is not about you, Charmaine. What's happening here is about them.

Take a minute, don't take it so personally, but it's taken a while for me to get there.

Aderonke (14:27.468)
Yeah, and I think that's a lesson that we all have to come to at some point that not everything is about us, right? It may really be about the other person.

Charmaine (14:35.341)
Right? Yes, yes.

Aderonke (14:40.152)
Can you recall a situation where you overcame a challenge that led to personal growth? What did you learn from that experience?

Charmaine (14:49.299)
so many things. So I...

overcoming challenges. I again just leaning into learning how to I always wanted to to

Charmaine (15:11.553)
Here, was gonna use, I'm gonna use this example. I was gonna use another example, but let me use this one. So I.

We all have faced hardship. don't think we can, any of us can get out of life without, we're not unscathed. We're going to deal with something. And I think, one of the things that I realized was when we talked about self abandonment a while ago, you know, I feel like I am a recovering people pleaser, over giver, over share, blah, blah, blah. Like I over did things out of fear, out of fear of wanting to keep connection.

And so I had to learn, so I found myself building, and everything is in relationship. So when I say relationship, I'm not necessarily meaning romantic relationship. I feel like we relate to everything, our homes, people. And so I was building a relationship with someone and I was realizing that I was falling into the old charm of, I wanted this person in my life. I really thought they were great and all of these things.

And you know, when you're recovering anything, right, you can, you can fall back into old patterns of behavior. And I found myself back in that old pattern quickly. And I feel like patterns have a life of its own. And so as I was going against my inner knowing, right, I'm using a more recent because I feel like we're all on the court. tell my clients, we're all on the court together. I don't always get this thing right. I'm just, and so,

I realized that I was over giving and over sharing and people pleasing and the relationship fell apart. But initially I had already knew something was not right, but I was trying to be a rescuer, a hero. coming in to save someone, right? And that's the old Charmaine is wanting to come in, wanting to be at my best. And this person was not giving me anywhere near that.

Charmaine (17:18.635)
And so I fell into this very like hard moment of self -condemning, you should know better, all of these things. And it may sound light to others, but because I take relationships and I'm an advocate for healthy relationships, first with self and others, I really fell into a hard place. And...

I was very proud to know that like I took the tools that I give to my clients and I went back to those tools. I went back to the basics about what did I need to see here? What do I need? What did I need to know? And how can I not keep going? Go back to that again. And, but that moment was very hard for me and my very closest friends saw me kind of collapse into this very sorrowful place. but the beauty of it.

was that I was able to pull myself out and have a story to tell. And actually it expanded my heart even more. And I felt like I could sit with people, especially my clients from a deeper place of compassion and grace because of that. because I guess because I do really take relationships so seriously, it really leveled me for a while and I had to take care of myself.

Aderonke (18:15.075)
you

Charmaine (18:41.677)
Does that make sense? Okay.

Aderonke (18:42.708)
No, it does. It really does because in order to be healthy in a relationship, and you've said it, you have to be healthy with yourself first. You do. And not everybody can do that. And that's, I think, why people tend to revolve in and out of the same relationships.

Charmaine (18:52.931)
Yeah. Yes.

Mm

Charmaine (19:04.951)
Yeah, it took some time for me to take a break, ask the right questions, but I had to nurture myself. had to like literally take care of me, start to ask the questions, but really speak to me in a way that was kind and sweet. Not that how could you do that? Like what is wrong with you? You should know better. Of course those things came up, right? But being able to come back from that situation.

and say, can do this again, I'm back. I can see where I've found the errors of my ways. I didn't blame that person. I really looked at how I showed up. And one of my mentors always says, Charmaine, even if you believe that someone is 97 % wrong, you own your three and that's what you work on.

Aderonke (19:55.566)
Earn your 3%. I like that.

Charmaine (19:56.917)
Own your three. Own your three.

Aderonke (20:02.872)
Thank you.

Charmaine (20:04.151)
Of

Aderonke (20:06.54)
You are listening to A .B. Wilson's Heart of the Matter podcast. Welcome back to Heart of the Matter. My guest today is Charmaine Heard. Charmaine, we've talked a lot about self, taking care of your inside. What self -care practices or strategies help you to sustain your energy and motivation while navigating your journey?

Charmaine (20:31.553)
I love this question. I love this question because I believe that self -care is more about wellbeing than it is about going and getting your nails done and getting a massage and that those things are important too. And absolutely. But I believe that my wellbeing matters first. And so I have learned to check in with me, check in with you in the morning. How are you feeling?

I've learned to only put myself in spaces that feel right for me. I was, when we talk about self abandonment, mean, I would overstretch myself and go from, I get off from work and run here and take care of this and do that. Just always having something to do as a busy, busy woman and, really not taking care of myself. And then I was exhausted by the end of the night. I just wanted to eat and sit in front of the TV and go to bed, like all of these things.

And so I realized that everything matters. Your space matters, your environment, what you watch, what you listen to. My friends think I have lost my mind because I never watched the news. I don't. But I care about how I feel. And that's probably one of the biggest self -care practices that I've ever gifted myself with is I absolutely care about how I feel.

And if it doesn't feel right for me, am the longest relationship I will ever have in this world is with myself. And so that I have to learn how to be my greatest lover, my greatest friend. And if my friend said to me, Charmaine, I don't feel comfortable in this space. would say, let's go my dear. I wouldn't say why what's wrong with you. I'd say, okay, I'm trusting you not feeling comfortable. So if I can do that for a friend, then I need to do that for me. So I think self care is checking in with me.

Does this really feel right for me? Like, how's my well -being around this? And then acting accordingly, right? Really taking care of me first has been a act of self -care, but I've heard, I really wish, I want to give credit to where credit's due and I can't remember who it is, but I also,

Charmaine (22:56.225)
and I rest, I rest. So there's a woman and I can't remember her name right now and she's called the Nat Minister. I love her so much. but she talks about rest being a revolution and how, she's, she, she's been interviewed and I've listened to several interviews and she has a book as well. my goodness. I wish I could think of her name right now, but she's fantastic. And so I've learned to rest and rest well.

Right. And allow my body, if my body is tired, I'm not going to ask my body to move any further. Right. And I think that was a part of my healing and wellbeing. So rest checking in with myself, making sure that I'm really okay. the way I talk to myself, the environment in which I'm allowing myself to be in are, are probably four of the top ways in which I learned how to care for myself. Well,

Aderonke (23:58.362)
Mm, nap, napping, the nap minister. I'm gonna look that up. I've never heard of that. Yeah, and I'll post it. Then I post your information on the website. Charmaine, how might sharing your experiences of success and growth create a positive ripple effect in your family, community, the world?

Charmaine (24:03.425)
Please do, please do.

Charmaine (24:23.073)
Yeah, so I believe the greatest success is relationships, how we are. At the end of our lives, people remember who we are and what we've done or haven't done in this world. people speak really beautifully at funerals about the person, regardless of anything, right? Somebody's got something really nice to say about you. But people...

As Maya Angelou said, know, people don't remember what you say, but they remember how you made them feel. so my greatest success would be that I've learned to clean up my stuff. And I've learned to.

Charmaine (25:13.667)
to check my own BS at the door, to really lean into.

Charmaine (25:22.399)
as Mahatma Gandhi said, being the change I want to see. And because of that, I want to say that I would like for my greatest success to be how I am with others. Because I really think that's all that matters is our relationship with other people. I'm never going to make everyone happy. And that's not actually the goal. That would be people pleasing. But their experience with me would be of truth.

and of honor and of the sacredness of our humanity. And successfully saying, I don't get this right. I'm not going to get this right all the time, but I'm willing to keep trying. Are you willing to come with me in that and sincerely mean it? And if not, also, the success is letting go. The success is letting go and being able to let go in a way that honors whatever it was.

but letting people have their path and their journey. And I think that is also, you know, I want to hold onto everybody. Don't leave, I want to hold onto you. But I've learned that I'm not doing anyone a service by holding on when it's time to just release and let go. And I don't have to release and let go volatile, but I got to release and let go. So I think that achieving relationship is also about allowing people

to go when they need to go and really learning and nurturing and loving the people who want to stay. But wanting that reciprocity, right? Because I was so used to always just, no, don't worry, I'll be fine. You don't have to give me the same love and care that I'm giving you. No, no, no, I actually do require that now.

Aderonke (26:48.812)
Mm -hmm.

Aderonke (27:08.063)
Mm -hmm. And just you saying that, right, reminded me of a saying that I remember from

being in your life. People come into your life for a reason, season, or lifetime. And sometimes we don't recognize, which it is, right? Like maybe I'm supposed to learn something from you and just keep that for that time. Or you're here for a year or two, 10 minutes, 10 hours, or they're part of your life's journey.

Charmaine (27:42.241)
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. appreciate, Esther Perel says, you know, there'll be people that are a part of your life story and people who are a part of your love story. And I really love that very much. And so as we journey on, I honor everyone who's been a part of my life story and my love story.

Aderonke (28:08.652)
And I'm writing that down. I like that.

Charmaine (28:11.031)
Mm -hmm.

Aderonke (28:16.322)
Well, thank you. Thank you for that. Thank you for that, What exciting opportunities do you see on the horizon? And how do these opportunities align with your passions and aspirations?

Charmaine (28:17.463)
You're welcome. You're welcome.

Charmaine (28:29.091)
exciting opportunities. I am looking forward, I'm looking forward to opening up more space and conversations around healthy relationships. So what that would look like is my goodness, finishing up this book, that would be a great success actually. No pressure on myself when I say these things out loud, but just finishing up this book.

but also I really am looking forward to the next journey, the next leg of the journey, being very intentional about having conversations, real conversations about healthy relationships and being brave and courageous about it because I have spent many, many years in this place.

And so I'm not shooting from the hip. I'm shooting from all of the wisdom in which I've gained from world experience, from books I love to read. I love to learn from anyone who's talking about it on a daily basis. And I think that's a gift that I've given myself is to learn something every day for at least 30 minutes around the topic of my expertise, right? So that, I've been doing this for years. So I really feel like it's time to really

open up the conversation a bit more because why not? Why not? If I said this is what I want to do in my life, then I need to do it and not shy away from it. So I really am looking forward to successfully being able to do this more with others and also go back to speaking in public with others as well.

Aderonke (30:23.904)
You mentioned the book. Do you want to talk a little bit about it?

Charmaine (30:27.813)
do I want to talk about the book? I have been working this labor of love. My goodness. I've many times people have said you need to write a book and I'm like, that's just enough. No, I don't have anything to say. Everything that everything has been said. I can point you to the books if you want to know about blah, blah. There's experts around this on this topic and that topic. And then it hit me last year that I have. I do have something to say.

around my journey around life and love and what I've come to understand and learn in these past 15 years. And so I have a book coach who was like, you're ready. It's ready. Let's just go. And I'm still like, well, think, you know, I always, I'm learning a bit more around this specific topic. Let me sit with it more. But by the end of the year, I hope to be finished.

and hand it off to the publishers that are also waiting for me.

Aderonke (31:31.426)
Congratulations, good luck, great successes.

Charmaine (31:33.481)
Thank you. I'm excited and also very nervous.

Aderonke (31:37.112)
Yes, I can understand the nerves. So this is a really great segue into the next question. What book recommendations do you have? It could be a book you've read recently or something that has stayed with you over the years. And it could be more than one book.

Charmaine (31:54.225)
my goodness, how much time do we have? I'm such a bookworm. I, okay, I'm just gonna start rattling off some books that helped me when I was really young on this journey. I read this book called All About Love by Bell Hooks. And I not use that book as my Bible for a long time. I just go back to it. And I really understood, like I had an understanding and felt like another woman, another black woman.

had this big conversation around love that I just, and I love bell hooks anyway. But just, so her book started me really deepening that she has tons of books that I can name, Sisters of the Yim. also like all of the Brene Brown books, by the way, I go back to in reference from the gift of imperfections all the way to Brave in the Wilderness and everything in between.

I do have all of her books and I believe they're so helpful on this journey. The Way of Integrity, excuse me, by Martha Beck is another one.

Hmm.

Charmaine (33:12.839)
real love by Sharon. What's Sharon's last name? Salzburg, I think her last name is. The Seed of the Soul is another one, which I thought was really great.

Charmaine (33:32.107)
A Course of Love, A Course of Miracles. My goodness. Conscious Uncoupling, actually. It's a really great book. Calling in the One. It's a really great book. Like I said, I could go on and on. I have books. You walk into my house and you'd be like, okay, this girl likes to read. You walk into each room, almost every room, you're like, mm -hmm.

Aderonke (33:56.397)
Thank

Charmaine (34:00.781)
She's books everywhere, right? So I could go on and on and on about it. So I am a bookworm. My favorite places to be are bookstores, coffee shops with books, that sort of thing. So those are just some that come top of mind, but I know there's more.

Aderonke (34:00.819)
Yeah.

Aderonke (34:21.368)
Well, thank you. Charmaine, this has been a real opportunity to learn more about you, and I appreciate you sharing. And as we close, my final question for you, is there anything else? Do you have any final thoughts?

Charmaine (34:22.711)
My pleasure.

Charmaine (34:40.018)
I would encourage those who are listening to really play a bigger game of self -love, self -care, first and foremost, because how this thing really works is the more that we learn how to take care of ourselves and love ourselves well, the more we love other people differently and better. I choose to use the word better, although, you know, I don't like to always use that word, but

The name of the game is to truly, and I don't mean from a superficial, I love me, but a deep knowing of seeing your own humanity. And so I would encourage everyone listening to lean in a bit more with your self -worth, knowing that you're worthy of great, great love and beautiful relationships with others.

If you are feeling like you don't know what to do or where to start, reach out to Adiranka and just say, where do I start in this journey of creating something really beautiful until my time is up on this earth?

Aderonke (35:54.434)
Thank you.

Charmaine (35:55.703)
You're welcome.

Aderonke (35:57.622)
So my appreciation nuggets that I'm taking away from our conversation. And one is that you're an advocate for healthy relationships first with self than others.

The longest relationship will be with myself, my greatest lover, my greatest friend. I thought that was, that was beautiful. And.

Aderonke (36:33.536)
Your closing remarks play a bigger game of self care and self love. Charmaine, Charmaine Heard, thank you so much for your time today. Thank you for joining me on Heart of the Matter, a podcast dedicated to asking overwhelmingly positive questions as we uncover incredible stories of people you may know. Charmaine, thank you.

Charmaine (37:02.007)
My pleasure, thank you.