38. Creating Space for Joy: On Positivity and Leadership with Dr. Nicole Bossard

In this inspiring episode, host Aderonke Bademosi Wilson sits down with Dr. Nicole Bossard to explore the transformative power of positivity and its critical role in organizational change, particularly within the human services sector. Dr. Bossard shares her journey as a positivity strategist and discusses how she integrates an intersectional approach to foster joy, resilience, and growth in individuals and organizations.

Dr. Bossard explains her role as a positivity strategist, emphasizing the importance of focusing on strengths within organizations to drive meaningful change. She discusses her approach to facilitation, aiming to simplify complex processes and make change more accessible for individuals facing challenges.

As an evangelist of joy, Dr. Bossard shares her passion for spreading positivity and its profound impact on personal well-being and community connection. Dr. Bossard also reflects on her journey as a budding author, highlighting her experiences in writing about leadership, positivity, and the transformative stories of those she has worked with.

The episode also delves into Dr. Bossard's personal interests, including her love for silence and music, revealing surprising aspects of her personality that contribute to her work. Dr. Bossard shares a recent success story from her work with Ottumwa Pathfinders in Iowa, where she helped youth leaders uncover their strengths and secure a significant grant to build a community center.

Listeners will gain valuable insights into the power of positivity in personal and professional contexts, learn about the importance of creating supportive environments for growth, and discover how joy can be a catalyst for change.

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Transcript

Aderonke (00:01.826)
Welcome to another edition of A.B. Wilson's Heart of the Matter, a podcast that uses
overwhelmingly positive questions to learn about our guests, where every episode uncovers
extraordinary stories of triumph, growth, and empowerment. Hi, I'm Adiranka Badamosi
Wilson, and my guest on today's show is Dr. Nicole Bussard. She is a positivity strategist.
a facilitator, an evangelist of joy, and a budding author. Welcome to the show, Nicole.
Dr. Nicole (00:39.707)
Thank you so much, Adamanka. I'm very excited to be here.
Aderonke (00:43.67)
And so I always like to get an understanding of the words that people use to describe
themselves. So let's start at the top. Positivity strategist. What is that?
Dr. Nicole (00:56.923)
So a positivity strategist, I learned that term and have really been allowed and graced to share
that term from an AI appreciative inquiry, a mentor of mine, Robin Stratton Burkessel. And she
calls herself a positivity strategist. She hosted a podcast for many moons called on positivity
strategy and a strategist.
And I took an online course from her on the foundations of appreciative inquiry. so as a
positivity strategist, it's someone who my work has primarily been with organizations in the
human services realm and really looking at how do we take and create organizational
interventions that bring forward, that help us discover and that really amplify and magnify the
best of us. And so
In most of the organizations that I've worked with over time, positivity has been considered this
very almost unnecessary extracurricular to the quote unquote real work. But in my work, no
other sector can benefit more from a focus on what is best about us, what's been the best
ways that we have showed up and what are the things that we can learn from when we've been
at our best. There's no other field that can use that kind of crucial insight more than human
services. So once I discovered appreciative inquiry, I really was on a mission to bring that kind of
medicine and also that kind of insight to the folks that are on the front line of our communities
and helping.
and creating the kinds of supports that will help people navigate a tough time or stabilize after
they've just come through a tough time.
Aderonke (03:00.696)
And so, Facilitator, tell me about that.
Dr. Nicole (03:05.445)

Well, know, facilitate is, I really take the definition very seriously and kind of the layman's term
for facilitator to make easy, not like simple, but to make ease full, to make a process, something
that could be very complicated. Where can we bring simplicity? To take something that is
genuinely difficult, hard, traumatic, painful. How do we apply some medicine into the
process of what it is that we have to do. And so how do we make it a little easier for folk to do
the work that they have come to do and that they're committed to doing? How do we take the
whole journey or process of change, which is purported to be very difficult? I have issue with
that. We can circle back to that later. But to create processes that make people's intended
changes.
a bit easier, a bit more natural, a bit more organic, and frankly, much more possible.
Aderonke (04:13.714)
And so, and when you said this, I had never heard this term, so I'm gonna ask you to explain it
to me and to our listeners. Evangelist of joy. What does that look like?
Dr. Nicole (04:29.357)
Evangelist of joy, what it looks like. I'm the daughter of an evangelist. Before my mother died in
my entire life, she was someone, she was a woman of faith that was absolutely the center of
the wheel for her, the center of everything for her. And she could not help herself in terms of
sharing what she discovered is the good news.
and in her regard, that was around her faith. But I believe, you know, faith systems, all of them,
every faith system brings such manna for us as human beings, whether you believe or kind of
govern yourself according to that faith system or not. So this whole notion of an evangelist,
someone who is a proclamer of the good news, the good news is joy.
And I would even expand that a little bit, Adiranka, really an evangelist of positivity. There's
some real good news around positivity, around joy, its impact, what it does for us as human
beings, how it helps us broaden our perspective, broaden what we're able to perceive in our
environment, what we're able to understand deeply about ourselves, and how that then helps
us elevate, but also it fortifies the floor.
So it takes something that's pretty special that can not only elevate us, but then kind of fortify
itself as it elevates us. So that's the power of positivity. I can't help myself thanking the legacy
of my mother. I can't help myself, but to share the good news, the good news around positivity.
The absolutely positive impacts that it has on these positive emotions, that is, has on our
physical body, has lessening pain, sharpening focus, helping us to become better innovators,
helping us to be better creators of innovation, helping us to bond more closely together in our
social connection and relational infrastructure that we live in called family or.
Dr. Nicole (06:54.031)

community or even neighborhood or even nation. So there's something, there's some good
news around positivity and every good news message needs a messenger. And the last piece I'll
say, as you can tell, I'm pretty passionate about this, hence the term evangelist. I often say, you
know, every good message needs a John the Baptist. And for those that aren't familiar with
John the Baptist,
John the Baptist and Jesus Christ of Nazareth, they were cousins. But John the Baptist had a
specific role in history. And he was kind of the, he was the big megaphone about what was
coming. He was the big kind of, let me tell you what's about to happen. This is something about
to be different. And here's how it's gonna be different. And here's the whole new world that's
gonna be ushered in because of. So whether you believe in Christianity or not,
Again, there's manna in the stories. So every good news message needs a John the Baptist
that's gonna be bold, that's gonna be kind, that's gonna be brave and unabashed and
enthusiastic in sharing, let's gather around. wanna share with you this great thing that's
coming. Or in our case, that's available.
Aderonke (08:14.884)
And so you see yourself as the messenger, as the one coming and saying what this positivity is
about and what it can do for you, what positivity means.
Dr. Nicole (08:24.161)
One of many. And we're at a beautiful time at Arranca, 20 years ago, for those of us that have
been practicing appreciative inquiry, which I know you've been, you you're just wired that way,
that we were kind of doing the work very much, we knew the power of it, but where there
wasn't a lot of science and evidence about it, there certainly, there was practical...
implementation guidance, how people were doing it. And we had feedback from folks who
were experiencing it, but we didn't have a lot of science of why is this so impactful? Well, now,
2024, what is this? 40 years in for appreciative inquiry as a field. And then now with the
emergence of for about that same time, maybe 30 years of positive psychology, we have folks
like Barbara Fredrickson.
who is the author of Positivity, Martin Seligman, who's the father of positive psychology and
learned optimism and just, we have so much, we have theory now to hang our hats on. And
now we have folks like Sean Acor, we have many, many others who are doing research in this
field that are saying there's real evidence and we can see it, we can show it. And if we can see it
and we can show it, we can build on it. We can work with it and really expand it. So I think...
as we start approaching kind of the 2.0 of positivity and joy, there's real room now for us to
start bringing more diverse voices in to the research story that's unfolding about positivity and
bringing new voices in.
Aderonke (10:05.996)

And so that's a good segue because my question is, tell us about being a budding author. That
was one of the many descriptors you shared with me before we went on air. And while we
usually use three, you gave me probably about 74. So I decided to pick four.
Dr. Nicole (10:15.227)
Mmm
Aderonke (10:35.79)
that you shared. And the others, let me just say for the record, the others were amazing. The
other descriptors that you used were amazing. So I picked author. So tell me about being a
biting author.
Dr. Nicole (10:54.107)
Well, as a budding author,
The other side of being an evangelist of positivity and my enthusiasm about it, it could lead one
to believe certain things about how I approach the work and how I show up and how I kind of
create or share this work, that it would be easier, it would be so much fun. It's been a real
challenge. One of the things that I've really struggled with throughout my life is a debilitating
self-doubt.
And so being a quote, budding author, it took me a long time to kind of figure out what it is that
I have to say. How do I wanna say it? And so it took me kind of a while to get here. And now
that I am here, the budding author is when I completed my dissertation on organizational or an
inorganizational leadership and change, I was studying
this whole, I was studying a leadership group and really documenting a transformative journey
that took people from a sense of being silenced to being essential to the life of the system that
they were in. And they were coming from a place of being very much on the outside of that
power structure and...
being able to take a place as co-creators of that system. And I just loved everything about what
I was learning from these people and these incredible human beings. So the budding author is
taking that work and daring to do the work of learning how to write a story that's a little more
accessible to the masses, to be able to get at some of the things that I was talking about earlier
about my evangelism, about joy and positivity, because there's
Dr. Nicole (12:51.971)
information, there's treasure, there's mana, there's real sustenance in those leadership stories
about those elements of positivity. So being a budding author, that's the content, but the
journey has been about allowing that, my messages of positivity to include and circle and
support me as well.
Aderonke (13:14.786)

Hmm, so thank you, thank you for that. And so I'd like our listeners to learn even more about
you. Please share three interesting things about yourself that our listeners may not know and
your friends will be surprised to learn.
Dr. Nicole (13:33.681)
I think probably the first is that I'm actually, I really like silence. I mean, to be honest, that
surprises me sometimes. I gotta tell the truth about that. That I really do need my alone time. I
really, as gregarious as I am, and as much as I love, love, love being around people, and I'm
energized very much so by being around people.
that as much as I love that, I really do thrive when I give myself that alone time, that space. And
then maybe lastly, that I have an incredible affinity for all kinds of music, but house music, deep
house music in particular. So I have a little DJ turntable over there and I have a little DJ.
learn how to DJ course that I've signed up for on U2Me.com. so I'm very much into the healing
and the connective power of music. Like music is a big, big, big love of mine.
Aderonke (14:58.434)
So what's that three? I got you like silence, affinity with music. Alone, okay, yes.
Dr. Nicole (15:00.443)
Mm-hmm.
And alone time. Yeah, that's the surprising part. The alone time is.
Yeah, I think most people are like, really? Stop playing, Nicole.
Aderonke (15:15.266)
Well, I can appreciate the silence because when I'm at work in my home office, I have total
silence around me. No music, no TV. And even if I'm in my house and I just need to do some
focused work, I just shut everything down and have total silence, which gives me the ability to
think. I can't think in noise, especially if I need to do some deep work.
Dr. Nicole (15:46.513)
I agree. I'm really glad that you said that because that's a, you know, I have to be reminded of
my winning strategy. And for what, when I have to do deep work, silence is better. When I'm,
when I've already hit my flow, I can have a little bit of something like I can do that's coffee shop
work, or I can have something playing in the background. But, or if I'm doing something that's
pretty rote.
Aderonke (16:01.827)
You
Dr. Nicole (16:14.415)

I can have it, but I can have something in the background. But when I need to do deep work,
that's really, I'm glad that you said that, Adoranka. That's very, very a good timely reminder for
me.
Aderonke (16:25.364)
And can you tell us about a recent accomplishment or success that you're particularly proud of?
Dr. Nicole (16:34.445)
I would say one of the recent successes that I've had that I'm very excited about, I was brought
on as a coach consultant with a team in Iowa, and they were focusing on some youth workforce
development work, and they were very committed, this team from Atumwa, now called
Atumwa Pathfinders, very committed to amplifying
and really honoring youth leadership and youth voice. So I was able to do some work with
them, get them connected with another colleague who has created some incredible body of
work called the Human Impact Framework. And using that work, it's been able to not only help
the program,
do this work around elevating youth voice, but we were able to do some real leadership
development with the youth themselves, helping them uncover their purpose, helping them
identify some of their core values and strengths, bringing in, speaking of Martin Seligman,
bringing in the via strengths profile that they completed so that they had a clarity about where
they're strong and where they want to continue to evolve and contribute.
And long story short, I started working with them and they knew the dream. The executive
director, Krista Tedrow is amazing. She knew what she wanted to do, but we were able to kind
of just give them some space at Arranca. I can't emphasize enough the incredible gift it is as
facilitators to craft a supportive space where people can bring forward their brilliance.
They don't have to damp it down. They don't have to kind of take on a humility that amputates
some of their brilliance or some of their power and then allow them and just connect them
every so often, just connecting them to a little resource or to a good person or someone who's
like-minded and watching what has evolved. So what's happened with this group since then,
Atom of Pathfinders, they've gone from the blueprint stage to
Dr. Nicole (18:56.453)
We've just completed with them their impact and evaluation story. they have, youth
themselves have started writing grants. They wrote a grant and won for a million dollars. And
these are youth that, one of the things that they said is, we want to create a space where youth
who are not the usual suspects for leadership and achievers, the ones that you might overlook
if you are kind of not looking closely.
And so they have, these youth have just, they're incredible. They are now building a community
center. That's what they're doing with that million dollar grant. connecting, their staff has been

connecting them with other systems and power structures in their community. So there's a
youth member of city council. I mean, just the accolades and what they've done can go on and
on and on. So I'm really proud of the role that I played as their facilitator.
creating space for them to do that kind of huge, big thinking kind of work and also planning and
also being able to do some real character strengths coaching with those youth so that they now
step forward with confidence about who they are, where they're strong, the impact that they
want to make and the ways that they are going to do it at specific points in time. So really,
really proud of that work.
Aderonke (20:24.623)
Excellent. Thank you for sharing that. And please tell us about a time when you made a
difference in another's life. What were the circumstances? Paint a picture for me, please.
Dr. Nicole (20:42.769)
I was brought in to deliver a keynote for a human services division for their entire staff of about
900 people, 400 on one day and 500 on the next day, something like that. And this was a
human services division where one of the programs was again, workforce development, which
is all about helping adults in this case, connect to careers.
that would generate a living wage. And one of the wait staff who was a part of the catering
team said, hey, what is this meeting about? What are you all doing? What are you all talking
about? I like what you're saying. And I was talking about appreciative inquiry and the power of
positivity at work. And on the lunch break, she and I got into a great conversation.
Long story short, I was able to take her by the hand, literally, and connect her with a workforce
development professional where she could then begin her own journey on going from, I see
where I am, I'm grateful for it, but I really would like to do a lot better. So just that point that I
made earlier about connecting to the right resource, connecting people together, where whole
new worlds of possibility open up.
And it can be just as simple as that. So I was incredibly proud of that moment in the middle of
everything else going on, that there was this moment that presented itself to make that kind of
connection.
Aderonke (22:24.408)
And so what were the key strengths and qualities you relied on to make a difference in that
instance?
Dr. Nicole (22:32.241)
Being available, being willing to be engaged. Sometimes when we see people doing keynotes or
they're brought in to do big things, to talk to the whole staff or to facilitate a strategic planning
retreat, you get so focused on what you have to do, or in some cases, it can kind of feel like,
hey, I'm not really here to be engaging in this level of activity, I just need to do my thing.

And so being willing to be touched by people, that's really how I wanna say it. Being willing to
be engaged means being willing to be impacted by another story. And that's predicated upon
recognizing, hey, there's a story out there to be told. So being attentive and looking for the
story, somebody else's, story that they have to tell.
And then two, one of the things that a colleague of mine early on in my career shared with me,
she said, I know who you are. She said, Nicole, you're one of those social connector people.
You're constantly connecting this one to that one or connecting resources. So being able to
utilize that strength to make a connection. So shout out to Ashley Coulter, who is the...
who is the workforce professional that I took this woman by hand. I went to take her to
Ashley's, to Ashley Coulter so that she could make a miracle happen, make a miracle happen for
this woman, for her children, for her family. And because of what was available to her in that
meeting, there's a possibility of an intergenerational impact. So those are the strengths that I
was able to call on.
being willing to kind of come off of my own script, off of my own agenda, really, and just being
willing. That's the piece that I want to add to that. And just being willing and having a desire to
make those kinds of transformational shifts for another.
Aderonke (24:48.718)
And so I just want to talk about something off script that you said to me in passing, but stayed
with me. And I tend to think about it at times. it was last year. So this is 2024, November. And
last year, about this time, November 2023,
Dr. Nicole (24:58.353)
Mm.
Aderonke (25:18.838)
I sent out a survey. I was launching my calendar and I sent out a survey just to gauge interest
and see how many people would be willing to purchase before I went to press and spent
hundreds of dollars on.
on something that people may or may not have had an interest in. And I remember sending you
the survey and a few days later you said to me, we just happened to be on a call, I sat down on
X day, maybe Sunday, and said to myself, let me water Adoronka's dream. And that phrase has
stayed with me because it says so much. It says so much about
you as a person and how you see other people's work and your willingness to help them along.
So tell me what watering, that's what it meant to me. That's what watering somebody's dream
meant to me. But what does it mean to you? Because I had never heard that phrase before.
Dr. Nicole (26:28.411)

Mm-mm, watering another's dream, there's a lot there.
Watering Another's dream acknowledges that we as human beings are never constrained by
our conditions, by our history, by where we've come from, whose family we belong to. There's
a bigger something that's holding us. And so part of what
I believe is that as human beings, each of us, we do have these seeds within us of the dreams,
the things that we are here to create, the things that we are here to plant in the soil that will be
available for, that will be available long after we're gone. Like I believe that's just a part of our
human nature.
And so that being the premise that I'm operating on or under or within, that means there's an
opportunity as a human being, I have a really powerful choice point. I can choose to nurture
those seeds. I can...
go through life and kind of not be aware or cognizant or clued in to your seeds of your dreams
or mine. So by not choosing, I'm kind of choosing, right? By being too busy, I'm already making
my choice. And so there is for me inside of all of that inherently a responsibility or I really like
the term better, an opportunity.
Dr. Nicole (28:28.471)
And one of the things that I spoke about, I was speaking to an international interfaith prayer
circle, maybe at the middle of the pandemic, and we were meeting virtually. And one of the
things that I shared with them is appreciation and appreciative inquiry. It gives us this incredible
opportunity to be philanthropists.
were able to gift and give and give in great amounts the kind of watering of the seeds that
we're talking about by simply A, being willing to notice, being willing to be disturbed, i.e. I'm
not just, I didn't just hear your story, but I'm willing to be impacted. So not disturbed in a
negative way or an unsettling way, but I'm willing to be impacted.
And then because I've made the first choice about saying, hey, I have something to do about
nurturing the dreams of another person, whether that be somebody that I'm sitting next to on
the subway or it's myself or someone that I love dearly or a colleague and friend, but I have all
of these opportunities to function in the world like,
you know, gosh, let me be the Dale Carnegie, right, of watering other people's dreams. And
that, just that sensibility, as I shared that, as I was talking to the prayer circle and people were,
if you remember at that time in the pandemic, people, we were all shut in, you couldn't, for
some people, their work was impacted, so it was a hard time. And so being able to put yourself
in that position of being a benefactor.
of dreams is of others dreams as well as your own that just I just I love that that idea.

Dr. Nicole (30:36.493)
as a place to live from, as a place to lead from, as a place to learn from, as a place to stand in
the world.
Aderonke (30:55.906)
Thank you, that, like I said, that phrase has stayed with me and it resonated with me as soon as
you said it. And I never had a chance to ask you about it, so this is my opportunity, thank you.
Can you recall a situation where you overcame a challenge that led to personal growth? What
did you learn from that experience?
Dr. Nicole (31:04.166)
Mmm.
Dr. Nicole (31:11.921)
Thank you.
Dr. Nicole (31:21.713)
Well, I kind of foretold it earlier and I have to say, Adhraanka, of the preparation, you were kind
enough to share with me preparation questions. And that was when I was really stumped by
and I found myself, it was such an interesting, it just started off an interesting cascade of self-
reflection for me. I was like, hmm, why is this so hard? What is it that I don't want to say?
and why wouldn't I wanna say it? And because that's what it occurred to me. For somebody
that's, you're doing any of this kind of work, you're facilitating groups, you're working, there are
challenges all over the place, just living life, there challenges all over the place. So what is
preventing me from seeing? And then it was like, it's not seeing, what is inhibiting me from
sharing? And so what I discovered is it kind of goes back to, again, that debilitating self-doubt.
And so is an example of that, a challenge or how that showed up in my life. I finished my
master's degree at the University of Virginia. I got my master's or earned my master's in
sociology. And it was maybe three years after that. And my mother said, listen, you got to get
your mail together. I'm still getting all this mail from the University of Virginia. They're talking
about you need to come and get this diploma. And I just got...
It was like the blood left my face. I just, I was frozen and she said, what's wrong with you? And I
said, I don't want to call them back. What if they tell me that I didn't get my degree?
she was gobsmacked. She was like, what are you talking about? Of course you got, what do
you, how would, how would this even happen? And so I started to.
Dr. Nicole (33:18.743)
I was able to see that this debilitating doubt in myself and how it was really holding, it was a
straight jacket that was very effective, right? Can you imagine trying to make an impact in the

world, trying to create space for other people to evolve and show up and shine bright? And
you're constantly looking over your shoulder.
for things that you've earned and thinking they're not real and you don't really have an impact,
right? Not just the tension, but the exhaustion of living that life. And so coming, and that's as
you, for those of you that have struggled with imposter syndrome is kind of the term of late. If
you struggled with self-doubt or as I've said it, debilitating self-doubt.
you know that as you begin to recover from that, I would say I'm a recovering self-doubter. And
as you begin to recover, it's not, or I'll say, I have the gift of revisiting those moments of self-
doubt as I move into greater and greater challenges. And what I...
What I came to, I wanted to reread the question to make sure that I get both pieces. What I
came to when I started doing work around positivity, you know, they say you're always drawn
to or the thing that really is that you're passionate about or drawn to, it's for you, that medicine
is for you, as well as for anybody else. And so all of this work around positivity, it really took me
some time to put the story together. But my work around positivity has been as much about my
own recovery.
as it has been some kind of altruistic message for anyone else. It's literally been for me to begin
to reintegrate all of these aspects and experiences and wonderful things that I have brought
into the world and be able to embrace them. So the growth that's happened is me being able to
bring a lot more grace into my life. So for so much of that,
Dr. Nicole (35:39.075)
so much of my life, the self doubt was met with very harsh talk, very harsh self talk. You should
do better. Why didn't you? That was so dumb. How could you possibly think that? What's
wrong with you is a big one. And now being able to really use a lot more self compassion at
Arranca and also being able to not just self compassion, but at this point in the journey.
Being able to see the good in myself, being able to see the good that I generate around me and
being able to embrace those things as absolutely true, right? That yes, I really did do that. Yes, I
really did have that positive impact. So I think my lesson from that one interchange with my
mom,
And that whole experience was around me being able to really always put myself in the circle of
appreciation, of positivity, of compassion. So all of the things that I so easily could give and
espouse to literally anyone else, it's taken me a while to put myself back in the center of that.
but that's the healing and recovery process that I'm in, thankfully.
Aderonke (37:11.926)

And how did you get there, Nicole? I'm sure there may be people who are listening and have
heard where you started and are hearing the positive and uplifting space that you're in and
your dedication to sharing positivity and being...
an energetic and enthusiastic supporter of joy. How did you get from debilitating self-doubt to
where you are right now? What did that journey entail? And tell us about that, please.
Dr. Nicole (38:00.325)
Hmm. Some of that.
I want to get a little practical tactical on that response, okay, and lean into another core part of
my declaration of who I am with this, which is authentic joy. So the authentic part of the joy is
some of that came because it had to. I came to serious forks in the road. It became, when I said
it's exhausting to live that life,
part of the exhaustion is I'm talking about all of these wonderful things that are available in us
and that of who we are and the divine potential that's available to every person at every
moment in every circumstance. And somehow I've designed it so that despite what my creator,
as I understand him, says about me, that I've excluded myself from this whole thing. So the first
piece that...
that I had to do, I was doing some personal development work and I really came to value the
distinction of empty and meaningless. If any of your listeners are familiar with landmark
education or EST training, one of the key distinctions inside of this technology of personal
transformation that
landmark education and the landmark forum in particular talks about is there's this distinction
around empty and meaningless. And empty and meaningless says, you know, life just is. Life is
happening. There's whatever's going on inside of you and your thinking and outside of you and
your experience, but it's empty and meaningless until we add the meaning to it, until we bring
the whatever fullness to it.
Dr. Nicole (40:00.451)
And that distinction was very startling at first, because I'd never heard anything like that. But
what it opened up was an opportunity for me to recognize that I have a way that I can start.
There are objective things that happen out there, but what meaning I make of it, that's
complete. The pen is in my hand. I can craft whatever story or narrative that I like. And even if
what I inherited from my family, what I'm experiencing in the broader society in terms of
people who look like me, I can craft a story that is about my fullness, about my mattering,
about the power that I have. So I had to begin to wrestle with what story am I going to tell
myself first and then everybody else.

the other piece around kind of moving me along. So I had to then, what I would encourage your
listeners to do, you recognize this trajectory, if you know someone who is kind of on this
trajectory, at a certain point, know, we like to, sometimes you're looking for permission
somewhere out there. And at a certain point, you just have to declare something.
because your whole wiring, which means your whole biochemistry is wired to look for where
you fail, where you don't belong, why this doesn't apply to you. So it's gonna be hard for you to
get to that new meaning making from where you're starting because everything that you've
been training yourself to do, and we're such great trainees as human beings, gonna tell you it's
two plus two is always gonna equal 17.
because that's the math you've been working with. So at a certain point, you've got to make a
decision. And I had to make a decision because it was getting to be like, I can't keep living this
way. It's exhausting. And I can't keep up being something or espousing something out there and
feeling so empty in here and like it doesn't apply to me and I can't ever reach it. I can't ever get
it. So I had to make a moment of declaration. There had to be a moment where I said,
Dr. Nicole (42:20.985)
This is how it is. What I'm saying out there to Adiranka, what I'm saying out there to Mary, what
I'm saying out here to John, what I'm saying to Kamal, what I'm saying to Kathy, this applies to
me as much as it does to anybody else and be specific about that. This power to create my life
on demand, that applies to me. This...
I can do big, hard things that seem impossible. My faith can sustain and lift me through the
hardest of times. I believe it. The capacity for me to create a life that is on purpose, that is on
point, and that is completely aligned with the fulfillment of a destiny that is greater and beyond
myself, it is so. Like there's a point in which you just have to declare something and be
prepared.
for your history, for your patterns, for your biochemistry. And this gets amplified by all of that
stuff attracts certain people. So people who are gonna remind you of the place that you left.
And it's okay, it's okay. So just recognize, I'm thinking that thought again. Okay, great, that
doesn't mean it's true. It took me a long time to get that one. I thought it meant.
my God, maybe that stuff really is true. Maybe I'm not worthy. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.
You're worthy. That's just the old way of thinking. It's not going to go silent, you know, for
nothing. So expect that. Expect some of the people around you to reflect your old way. So as
you begin to see those reflections out there, use that as really good data feedback. Ooh, I still
have people around me from the old way, so I have some decisions that I need to make.
The other declaration is, am going to do an Adiranka. You are one of the best examples of this
I've seen in my life. You are such a woman of action. So once you make a declaration, you must
act in accordance with your declaration. So that might mean, okay, I'm gonna start getting

around people who think this new way that I think about worth, around self-compassion,
around kindness, around defining one's own life on one's own terms.
Dr. Nicole (44:46.467)
around growth mindset, being able to learn through and just live through life and go and do big
things, go do the things that excite me. For your 60th birthday, didn't you like travel to, was it
Thailand?
Aderonke (45:02.151)
Hong Kong and Thailand, yes.
Dr. Nicole (45:03.537)
Hong Kong and taking us, okay, you guys, I'm gonna be posting pictures on WhatsApp so you
can like experience it with me. Like, I've never met somebody who says they're gonna do
something and they make it happen with such speed and total commitment, like in my personal
circle. So it's, well, actually I'll scratch that. This old way of thinking, I would kind of miss it with
people. And so you showed up in my life as I was really...
digging into this transition. So all of a sudden I have this beautiful teacher, this beautiful
example, this beautiful mentor and like, okay, what am I gonna do? What's my thing that I'm
gonna do? So as a result of you and how you were doing your 60th birthday, I drove to Texas to
go visit with my Godfather by myself. I was awesome. It was like, I kept saying I wanna drive the
country. I've been saying that for like 20 years since my aunts did it. And it's like, so I did that.
So I wanted to say thank you for that.
For people who are on this journey, you make your points of declaration and once you make
your points of declaration, start moving, start moving. You gotta move, give yourself something
to do outside of those new declarations that you can see, hear, feel, and where you can then
impact outside of yourself in this new way. And so the other way that that showed up is I
started doing
the facilitations that I would have, that were just like out there to me, like that were like, what?
600 people virtually on Zoom? What? We're gonna bring, you know, 200 managers and the
department's on fire. We're gonna bring them together and try and say what? So I just started
really, I'm like, okay, if that's who it is, if that's what's in us as human beings and I'm a part of
that.
let's test it out, let's do something crazy, let's just like crazy good. so, you know, but whatever
your declaration is, start doing things inside of or from the source of that declaration. Get
around people who are good mentors for you, whether they know they're mentoring you or
not. Get around people that are like that and even get, you know, bonus, talk to them about
what you see in them and just have them start.
Dr. Nicole (47:24.845)

opening up some of their magic to you. And then thirdly, or lastly, don't be afraid when the old
stuff kind of shows up, but don't be spooked by it either. Don't think all is not lost because I'm
still struggling with, of course you are, you spent 40 years thinking like that. What do you...
That's so deep in your body, it'll be gone when it's gone, if it's ever gone. You might be the one
that carries it for your life because some of the work that you're able to do, the medicine that
you're able to give other people requires that you kind of stay in that arena so you can keep
learning and growing, stretching and getting stronger and delivering that medicine from that
place of wisdom, lived wisdom. just let it be okay. Let it be okay.
Aderonke (48:18.44)
And before we go to the break, I want to acknowledge something that you've said and I don't
want it to pass by me. It is congratulations on your solo travel because I know that that was
something that you and I have talked about in the past and I wasn't aware that you had done it,
so congratulations.
Dr. Nicole (48:26.491)
Mm.
Dr. Nicole (48:41.073)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Nicole (48:45.745)
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
Aderonke (48:48.791)
And I look forward to hearing about your next solo journey. because I believe in people,
especially women.
Dr. Nicole (48:52.261)
Yes.
Aderonke (48:59.074)
being able to take these solo journeys, whatever it looks like, whether it's driving somewhere
and being in that place alone to explore and really giving yourself an opportunity to find out
what you like. Many times when we travel with others, we come to an agreement, we're gonna
go here, we're gonna do this, we're gonna meet at this time. And traveling solo, you don't have
to do that. You are on your own schedule.
Dr. Nicole (49:14.523)
Mm-hmm.
Aderonke (49:29.008)

and you make decisions alone about how you will spend that time. And so I congratulate you on
that solo journey and encourage you to continue to explore.
Dr. Nicole (49:45.837)
Absolutely, I am planning my next one, so I'm excited.
I'm excited.
Aderonke (49:55.136)
You are listening to A.B. Wilson's Heart of the Matter podcast.
Welcome back to Heart of the Matter. My guest today is Dr. Nicole Bashad. Nicole, I have really
enjoyed our conversation so far. And just to switch gears a little, what self-care practices or
strategies help you to sustain your energy and motivation while navigating your journey?
Dr. Nicole (50:30.641)
For me, my faith is essential.
Dr. Nicole (50:40.631)
and what I mean by that is...
being able to kind of see the transcendent possibilities at all times, know, really being able,
especially when it's hardest to see them, especially when I feel overrun by, you know, worry or
despair. So being able to, and also when I'm feeling really, really, just really great and really
thankful. And so meaning being able to kind of put things inside of that,
that higher level of meaning and what's possible and where all of this is going and what's the
energy that's kind of moving through me or moving through us as a human family at a given
point in time. So my faith really helps me make sense of things. So even in me on my own...
journey from this debilitating self-doubt to this really affirming sense of strength and clarity and
purpose. My faith is kind of the organizing principle for all of that, that there really is a higher
calling, there is a higher purpose, meaning there's something of use here. So you can be in, you
know, as an appreciative inquiry is always looking at, what's working around here?
What can we build with and build on around here? And so that's kind of what I mean by my
faith. There's the faith that there's something bigger at work that we can plug into to support
and elevate. my faith, secondly, more practically, exercise, exercise, exercise, physical
movement, really. And I've just recently reached a new height or weight.
Dr. Nicole (52:34.861)
in terms of how much I weigh and it was startling. So I was like, what's missing? You ain't doing
that, the girl, you sitting in this chair, that's what's missing. So I had to, you know, remind
myself of just how much I enjoy physical movement. So physical movement, I've just always

loved weight training and exercise. I've loved those things. But now as I get older, I'm much
more excited about also including other ways of doing that, dancing, things of that nature.
walks, hiking. And then the other piece, the self-care piece, and this is one that I think is really
in terms of sustaining energy and motivation, it's being around people who are, when I say like-
minded, being around like-minded people, people who are clued into we have to feed, we have
to feed the seed of
our potential. We have to feed the seed of who we are. We have to feed the seed of
community. We have to feed the seed of our dreams. Being around people who have that kind
of mentality, being around people like you, people of adventure, being around people that
share that kind of mindset, not that think the same things that you think, that say the same
things, that you say believe the same things that you believe. As a matter of fact, I would say,
no, get out.
get around people who don't think like you, who don't talk like you, who don't listen to the
music you listen to, because that's automatically going to expand you. But having that in
common, having that wavelength in common of, gosh, I'm around people who are also looking
to feed the seeds of our individual and collective wellbeing, that gives you, it becomes a Google
translator of sorts across that diversity.
that will stretch you, build you, and fortify you ultimately.
Aderonke (54:27.558)
Do you think people are open to meeting and talking to people who aren't like them? That
force you to stretch in order to be able to connect with them?
Dr. Nicole (54:42.171)
I think like most things, I think some people are and some people aren't. And then there's a
large group of people because they don't know how they don't. So some people are, some
people are very interested in that and do it as easy as breathing. And then some people have no
interest, but I do think we have this large group of people who want to, but they're not sure
how. And so...
That's, you know, so that piece around personal learning what you're about, learning those kind
of transcendent things that matter to you begins to give you a little bit of something to work
with, to talk about, to share with another person. So when I know that I really get excited about
traveling, if I'm...
somewhere new and I meet someone, one of the first questions I can ask, hey, have you
traveled anywhere interesting lately? If you're a book lover, read any interesting books lately?
But do get something stirred up in yourself, but have the intention that this is not only to give
me joy and energy, but maybe it's a way for me to connect beyond myself and kind of have it at
the ready. So that's what I want to share with the folks that are in that.

what I think is a large group of people, really want to connect, but they're not sure how. And
then the other piece of that not sure how group is at a certain point, just jump. It might seem a
little bit scary to get outside of yourself, but just jump. You might find yourself in a really
fantastic conversation.
Aderonke (56:32.6)
And that's what I like about appreciative inquiry, because the questions you get to ask and
when you put people into pairing so that they have conversations based solely around the
questions that are in front of them and the other person, their only responsibility is to listen.
You find so much connection in that space. And a connection oftentimes that is
surprising that people don't anticipate. And it could be as simple as we have very similar views.
I had no idea. And that sparks more conversation, more connection, and potentially more
belonging.
Dr. Nicole (57:10.96)
Yes.
Dr. Nicole (57:16.709)
That's right. And it can also spark, wow, we have nothing in common except we have nothing in
common, but boy, this thing that we do have in common allowed us to part as friends and not
as gladiator combatants. So that piece about being intentional.
in what you just shared, appreciative inquiry kind of creates a system and a structure of
intentionality about how we exchange with people. And we can take that and bring that into
real life, or an appreciative inquiry summit is real life, but you can take it into any other aspect
of life, waiting in line at the Dunkin' Donuts or at the Starbucks or wherever else you are.
you can have that level of intentionality in a couple of questions. know, man, what's the best
thing that's happened to you today?
Aderonke (58:18.862)
And I totally agree. You can take it and make it a part of how you interact with people. Well, I
was initially gonna say especially people you don't know, but maybe equally people you do
know. Because asking really positive questions as we do on this podcast allows people to have
different conversations in a way that...
Dr. Nicole (58:35.823)
Yes.
Aderonke (58:47.371)
allows the listener to hear them in a way that they wouldn't have otherwise.

Dr. Nicole (58:52.805)
That's right. totally agree. Totally agree.
Aderonke (58:56.613)
So how might sharing your experiences of success and growth create a positive ripple effect in
your family, community, the world?
Dr. Nicole (59:10.991)
I think it's similar to what I was sharing with you just about watching you plan, watching you
first say this was what you were gonna do for your 60th birthday, then having occasion to hear
you talk about your planning and how you were gonna do it and where you're gonna go and I'm
gonna go here and then I'm gonna go visit my friends in the UK and then I'm gonna go down to
Hong Kong. mean, just hearing all of that, then watching you, you...
Like literally again, your generosity and allowing us to literally go with you through pictures. So
leveraging your gift as a photographer, you know, and just sharing that with us. So I say, you
know, how it creates a positive impact is how I've been positively impacted by you. And I think
sharing my successes or even, you know, the journey of challenge.
Authentically, positive, hopefully one of those positive ripple effects will be self-compassion.
You really being able to give yourself grace. Really also being able to embrace your worth, your
gifts, as well as the gift you are.
And then, of course, going back to the very, very top of our conversation, which is, I believe all
of that in my particular case, it's kind of been like stripping things away, just stripping things
away that were inhibiting my natural ability or natural capacity to shine and to...
bring light into the world. I believe we're all meant to do that. And that's not some kind of woo
woo thing. I believe there's a reason why we're all different. That in that difference, you know,
we just create such a beautiful, beautiful tapestry of light. And in that beautiful tapestry of light,
it doesn't mean that you don't ever experience dark times. But let's say you're
Dr. Nicole (01:01:28.897)
letting your light be bright at a time when I'm having, I'm in a dark space. And it can really be,
it's like, whoop, that's right. There's the path. Okay, one step at a time, just keep going on that
path and vice versa. So I really, the positive ripple effect that I hope around, you know, sharing
our experiences is that it just helps people come, become more alive to themselves, more
appreciative of themselves.
And if we can do that for ourselves, especially the places where we feel are not so pretty, or
those places where we've got some scar tissue, I think that will bode well for us being able to
embrace each other with that grace. And if we can do that, we can really, we can do some
pretty phenomenal things in the world.

Aderonke (01:02:23.064)
So what exciting opportunities do you see on the horizon and how do these opportunities align
with your passions and aspirations?
Dr. Nicole (01:02:32.879)
Well, one of the things that, it's funny, I'm talking to the maker of, the great maker of, maker of
things happener, the woman who makes things happen. One of the things that I've really been
thinking about is just hosting like appreciative inquiry summits, but doing them,
very broad, but around key issues. So one of them, one idea that I got a spark about and I just
didn't get back to it. I read an article or actually it was a posting from the CDC and in the United
States, cases of syphilis are back on the rise. Syphilis, like these syphilis, right? We had that
handled in the United States. That was done. We had it handled.
Aderonke (01:03:30.53)
Yeah, I thought that was like in the 80s and 90s.
Dr. Nicole (01:03:32.433)
That was like over. so, but now, and the CDC had put out this note like, like red letter warning,
like we need to handle this. This is becoming a public health crisis. And so I thought, gosh, we
have so much success to build on and yet here we are. This seems to me to be the perfect
opportunity for an appreciative inquiry summit to bring together members of the medical
community.
sex educators, members of the, you know, just folks in the community that care about this
issue, that care about public health, but bringing people around the table and kind of creating
and using appreciative inquiry to say, now, what can we, look at all of this that we have to build
with and build on, how can we apply it here so that we can literally shift the trajectory of what's
happening in terms of public health? So,
I think there are things like that that are on the horizon to actually, to take that idea and really
start pilot testing it, know, in a few communities around issues that have real, true shared
concern and not shared concern in a bad way, meaning people care about it. You know, there
are very diverse groups of people that care about it. So let's bring all the wealth of that
diversity.
to start looking at how can we co-create a solution. So that's a big part of what's on the horizon.
The other is finishing this book and really being able to take these experiences of what are
those things that create shifts in life trajectory for the better and using my dissertation
research, but also what I've learned since I completed that dissertation.
and being able to share that with other practitioners in human services and maybe just folks
who are interested in that kind of conversation. And then, of course, having been on the scale,

getting my new baseline. Obviously, what's on the horizon is a lot of exercise, a lot of dancing, a
lot of weight training, all of that, yes.
Aderonke (01:05:52.212)
And as we prepare to wind down from this fabulous discussion, what book recommendations
do you have? It can be a book you've read recently or something that has stayed with you over
the years.
Dr. Nicole (01:06:11.993)
I have a couple of books that I have picked up that I'm reading now that I'm really excited
about. One is Building Resilience with Appreciative Inquiry.
by Joan MacArthur Blair and Jeannie Cockle.
The other is rewire for wealth.
by Barbara Hewson.
Dr. Nicole (01:06:43.769)
And then the third one I just literally picked back up after reading it is The Success Principles by
Jack Canfield.
Aderonke (01:07:01.464)
Thank you.
Dr. Nicole (01:07:05.222)
Mm-hmm.
Aderonke (01:07:08.204)
Nicole, if there anything else you want to add, do you have any final thoughts?
Dr. Nicole (01:07:15.023)
Now y'all can't see on the podcast, Adar Manka's face was like, don't say no 17, 55,000 word
answer Nicole. I know it's a loaded gun, giving this question to you at the end of the interview.
The only thing that actually I would say, final thoughts. I really do wanna speak to folks that are
dealing with that debilitating self doubt. I want to say that,
Dr. Nicole (01:07:47.407)
The journey to come out of that can be long, but like everything else, life is a journey. So be
willing to be on your journey. And as a very dear friend of mine and therapist who says, keep
going by the open windows unless you're just getting a breath of fresh air.
keep walking by those open windows, keep refreshing yourself as needed, and also recognize
that you're not alone on this journey of trying to figure out, you know, what's live and what's

Memorex about me, what's beautiful and unique about me, what's awesome and magnificent
about me, and all of those adjectives and nouns apply to you. And just be willing to recognize
to see something else may require, not may require, will require a new set of glasses and that
new set of perspective and perception. And that might take some real work in terms of how
you think about yourself and talk to yourself and who you allow to talk to you and how you
allow them to talk to you. But all of those, that shift, those shifts, it's well worth the energy, the
effort, and most importantly, I just want to say,
there is truly something more positive, more powerful, more life-giving on the other side of
that mountain. So you might be kind of coming up the rough side of it right now, and that's
quite all right. But getting to the top, the view is beautiful, and the way down, there's just,
there are other great things on the way down.
Aderonke (01:09:36.994)
Nicole, I appreciate you sharing. I truly do. And I'm going to take a few minutes to share my
appreciation nuggets, what I'm taking away from our conversation today. I'll start with your
words, a positivity strategist and an evangelist of joy. Two terms that I wasn't familiar with, but
I have.
an appreciation for and an understanding of and a greater appreciation for you and the space in
which you occupy.
Aderonke (01:10:20.419)
And you said this, I believe it may be a direct quote. The power to create my life on demand. I
liked that, that resonated with me. then.
Aderonke (01:10:36.002)
Because we are different, we create a beautiful tapestry of life. Because we are different, we
create a beautiful tapestry of life. Dr. Nicole Bassard, thank you for your time today. Thank you
for your nuggets. Thank you for your guidance. Thank you for your wisdom.
I appreciate you taking the time to join me on A.B. Wilson's Heart of the Matter, a podcast
dedicated to asking overwhelmingly positive questions as we uncover incredible stories of
people you may know. Nicole, thank you.
Dr. Nicole (01:11:10.065)
Truly my pleasure. Thank you for this wonderful conversation and the discoveries that I was
able to make even in our conversation. So thank you, Adirond.