S2 Ep47. Dreaming on Purpose: Ontological Coaching and Creative Reinvention with Laura Westman

In this inspiring episode of ABWilson Heart of the Matter, host Aderonke Bademosi Wilson welcomes Laura Westman; a coach, artist, dreamer and author to share her extraordinary journey of personal growth, creativity and leadership. Laura offers a heartfelt exploration of dreaming, explaining how her waking dreams and vivid night dreams shape her life and coaching practice. 

She delves into her 13-year coaching career focusing on ontological coaching, a deeply reflective inquiry into the study of being, which helps clients align with their authentic selves and aspirations.

Listeners will be moved by Laura’s stories about her music and artistic expression, including her recent EP Moves and the joy of performing with her band Little Sister. She opens up about overcoming vocal challenges, healing autoimmune disease and embracing her unique voice in life and leadership. 

The episode also highlights Laura’s intentional self-care practices, such as protecting sleep, limiting screen time, nurturing intimacy and fostering joy. Finally, Laura shares her book 'How to Be Creative in the Age of Digital Noise' and offers empowering insights on vulnerability, leadership reinvention and staying connected to what truly matters.

Tune in for a warm, engaging conversation full of wisdom and encouragement to live a dream-inspired life with heart.

https://www.abwilsonconsulting.com

https://abwilsonphotography.com

Transcript

Aderonke Bademosi Wilson (00:03.833)

Welcome to another edition of ABWilson’s Heart of the Matter, a podcast that uses overwhelmingly positive questions to learn about our guests, where every episode uncovers extraordinary stories of triumph, growth, and empowerment. Hi, I’m Aderonke Bademosi Wilson, and my guest on today’s show is Laura Westman. Laura is a coach, an artist, a dreamer.Laura-Westman-transcript-11-25.docx​

Laura, welcome to the show.Laura-Westman-transcript-11-25.docx​

Laura Westman (00:35.362)

Hello, thank you. Thanks so much for having me.Laura-Westman-transcript-11-25.docx​

Aderonke Bademosi Wilson (00:39.033)

Laura, let’s start with your descriptor of being a dreamer. What does that look like? What does that feel like?Laura-Westman-transcript-11-25.docx​

Laura Westman (00:48.174)

What a cool question. You know, I think being a dreamer, there’s multiple expressions of “dreamer” that I think feel really important right now. Perhaps big picture and related to society and humanity, I think being a dreamer means being willing to be in courageously optimistic conversations about the future, like being willing to dream and dream collectively, dreaming with other people.Laura-Westman-transcript-11-25.docx​

I think that for me, it also means being somebody who holds her dreams for herself as sacred, almost as a compass. It’s a really big part of how I live, but also a really big part of my coaching practice and what I do there. But also on a daily basis, Aderonke, I dream. I literally dream at night really hard and vividly, and I have my whole life.Laura-Westman-transcript-11-25.docx​

I’m in a period right now of starting to understand my dream life as a second part of my consciousness. And so I have an interesting relationship with my actual dreams, and it’s part of how I communicate with myself and receive messages and support from the other side. So yeah, dreamer for me is pretty multifaceted.Laura-Westman-transcript-11-25.docx​

Aderonke Bademosi Wilson (02:21.499)

So you talked about your dream life. What does that look like? Are you living a separate life while you’re dreaming? Tell me more about that.Laura-Westman-transcript-11-25.docx​

Laura Westman (02:31.882)

Yeah, well, it’s kind of like for most of my life, I would have really vivid dreams, but they weren’t necessarily pleasant. They would be kind of stressful, but I would have a little bit of a shorthand with myself. I would do what I call dream work in the morning, where you kind of journal out and have a certain practice of rewriting what I remember from my dreams and trying to glean, you know, is there anything that my subconscious is trying to get through to me?Laura-Westman-transcript-11-25.docx​

Through that, I’ve developed a little bit of, I guess we could call it a vocabulary. There are certain people that represent things in my dream life, and that’s been this interesting way that I can navigate breakthroughs in my life and get a little bit more insight into how I’m really experiencing things on an emotional level that may not be accessible through my day-to-day life because I’m just busy thinking about things in a certain way or moving through my life in a certain way.Laura-Westman-transcript-11-25.docx​

In the last couple of years, as I’ve taken on some very intentional healing work, I have noticed the timbre of my dreams has changed, which has been really interesting. They’ve become a lot more specific; they’ve also become more positive. I kind of look forward to dreaming and seeing, what’s dream-Laura going to be up to?Laura-Westman-transcript-11-25.docx​

But I will say also, to answer your question very directly, in my dreaming I’m usually the protagonist. I can’t remember ever having a dream where I’m not in it doing something, but I know a lot of people who have the opposite experience, where they just have conceptual dreams. Like my husband rarely dreams of himself doing things; he’ll dream about aliens or what have you.Laura-Westman-transcript-11-25.docx​

Aderonke Bademosi Wilson (04:38.863)

Hmm, thank you. I don’t know if this is even vaguely the same. I know in the past when I’ve had to, let’s say, write a speech for a client, I would do all the research, research, research. Usually the day before it’s due, I would go to sleep with all the information in my head and wake up with the speech and go sit down and write it.Laura-Westman-transcript-11-25.docx​

Laura Westman (05:06.575)

That’s amazing.Laura-Westman-transcript-11-25.docx​

Aderonke Bademosi Wilson (05:09.723)

I know, exactly, and it works. I don’t know how my subconscious is… and I feel myself thinking about it. And I don’t know if you do this: when you’re sleeping, you can feel yourself thinking. You know you’re thinking while you’re sleeping, and you know while you’re sleeping that you’re thinking. And I will wake up and write the speech.Laura-Westman-transcript-11-25.docx​

Laura Westman (05:37.206)

Yeah, it’s amazing how for some people, the world of dreaming is like the second space that we occupy where things get processed. That happens to me sometimes too, where I’ll go to bed with a question and sometimes I’ll wake up having an answer without really having thought consciously about it at all.Laura-Westman-transcript-11-25.docx​

Sometimes I will also wake up in the night with a very strong feeling toward something. Like I recently had started working with a new coaching client, and for some reason I woke up in the night. I couldn’t remember what I had dreamed, but I was thinking of her and it was like I was left with this message from my dream: “The work you’re doing with her is really important. Trust it and trust you.” It was very loving and supportive.Laura-Westman-transcript-11-25.docx​

It’s very Shakespearean, don’t you think, to think about your waking life and your dream life as these two realms?Laura-Westman-transcript-11-25.docx​

Aderonke Bademosi Wilson (06:35.195)

Yeah, and to be honest, I was thinking about some books that I’ve read, “dreamwalking,” and they’re doing all sorts of things in their dreams with others who are also dreaming. But that’s just getting totally off topic with my literature these days.Laura-Westman-transcript-11-25.docx​

I read an article recently where they were talking about sleep, and scientists really don’t understand sleep as much as they do other things that we do as humans and the importance of sleep. The study was saying at any given time, 2 billion people are sleeping—I think it said something like that—but they still don’t understand what sleep does for people.Laura-Westman-transcript-11-25.docx​

Just having that thought and listening to you on how you’re dreaming and what dreaming is doing, I think there’s still lots of opportunity to learn about our sleep lives.Laura-Westman-transcript-11-25.docx​

Laura Westman (07:40.61)

Mm-hmm, totally.Laura-Westman-transcript-11-25.docx​

Aderonke Bademosi Wilson (07:43.981)

You mentioned your coaching. Tell me about being a coach.Laura-Westman-transcript-11-25.docx​

Laura Westman (07:48.878)

Well, I’ve been a coach for 13 years. One of the interesting things about coaching as a skill set—and part of why I got interested in becoming a coach as a career—is that, this is both very sweet to reflect on because it’s accurate and optimistic and somewhat naive, but that’s okay, I remember when I was looking into what kind of support profession I was interested in pursuing.Laura-Westman-transcript-11-25.docx​

I was curious about coaching. I was curious about different types of therapy, and I was curious about social work. The thing that had me really gravitate toward coaching is that it’s very distinct from the other two that I just mentioned in that it’s not regulated in the same way. The reason that was interesting to me was because I thought, this is a thing that I can grow with for a very long time.Laura-Westman-transcript-11-25.docx​

When you’re a coach—and I’m not going to pretend like I don’t have credentials and ethics and things like that—but you have a lot of freedom and creativity as to how you express that skill set. I just remember thinking, what a cool thing to get trained in and versed in. Maybe this is a great way to run a business that does something that I care about, which is helping people live better lives that are more suited to them, while also giving myself some space to live the artist life that I’ve always wanted to live.Laura-Westman-transcript-11-25.docx​

So you can imagine, that’s such a cute, wonderful thing to saddle up with at the beginning of a career path, you know, like, this is my dream. I’ve been doing it long enough to know that, A, it’s totally possible because I’m living it. B, becoming self-employed is kind of a crash course in not only how to run a business, but also a lot of self-mastery and self-leadership.Laura-Westman-transcript-11-25.docx​

Over the years, I’ve had the opportunity to do what we in coaching call “reinvention,” which is that thing I was touching on at the very beginning about a thing that will grow with me over time. The word we actually use for it in ontological coaching is reinvention—when you do get to change up how you use it, the place that it comes from, and how it’s expressed in your business.Laura-Westman-transcript-11-25.docx​

Laura Westman (10:14.668)

The place that it comes from and how it’s expressed in your business. I think a lot of us in ontological coaching hold it as such a great blessing and also a burden, because it does mean that when things feel like they’re not working, we have an inquiry we can start making to make some changes. That is so cool. It’s so cool.Laura-Westman-transcript-11-25.docx​

It’s always so exciting to help other business owners through that level of inquiry as well when they’re doing a similar evaluation. They kind of need a new North Star to really move towards. Also, sometimes the self-mastery piece is always looking at not only who can I be to line up with that, but also how can I empower myself and not let my inner critic, my “never good enough” or something, run me into the ground while I’m making these changes.Laura-Westman-transcript-11-25.docx​

I think that’s something we all really struggle with: how hard do I go in the direction of this? So yeah, so much of what I do with my coaching clients is that kind of dropping into, what is the next dream that’s asking to get lived? Sometimes my coaching clients have a very clear idea of what that is and that’s why they’re coming to me. Sometimes they don’t, but they’re interested.Laura-Westman-transcript-11-25.docx​

A lot of the work we do together at the beginning is softening toward that part of us that wants to be vulnerable and speak the truth and say what we really want, and learning over time how to align with it.Laura-Westman-transcript-11-25.docx​

Aderonke Bademosi Wilson (12:01.909)

You mentioned ontological coaching. What is that?Laura-Westman-transcript-11-25.docx​

Laura Westman (12:06.446)

So ontology is a very fancy word for something very simple that I think we all innately understand, which is the study of being. Ontological coaching is a being-focused inquiry. A lot of the work of ontological coaching and development is about not only what we’re doing in service of our goals and the things that we want to create and achieve, but also about who we’re being fundamentally that does or doesn’t support that.Laura-Westman-transcript-11-25.docx​

Ontological coaching also has a very strong focus on wellbeing and really learning how to create lives that source a person to show up in their highest and best unique qualities. One of the other things that I love about ontological coaching is that it kind of breaks people’s brains at first, because we’re so used to looking at ourselves and our goals through the lens of what we’re not doing.Laura-Westman-transcript-11-25.docx​

Ontology asks us instead to be very curious about the innate strengths that we have that, if we just learn how to let them shine, can do so much work for us—so much.Laura-Westman-transcript-11-25.docx​

Aderonke Bademosi Wilson (13:26.011)

Thank you, thank you for explaining. And you’re an artist. Tell me about your art.Laura-Westman-transcript-11-25.docx​

Laura Westman (13:31.65)

My art. You know, I am a practicing artist in terms of my music. I also think, especially in the context of this conversation of appreciative inquiry and connecting with you about this, I want to share that, to me, being an artist is also a lens through which I intentionally look at the world.Laura-Westman-transcript-11-25.docx​

I think that artists—the way that we are looking at what’s happening around us and the way that we synthesize what we see and the way that we spend our time and energy helping people resonate differently with what’s going on—is really powerful and important. So a lot of my music, for example, is not only about the songwriting that I do, but also about a feeling that I get when I’m singing and I’m really connected to something.Laura-Westman-transcript-11-25.docx​

I know that that thing, even though I’m not the best singer in the world, moves people. There’s a resonance there, and to me that is probably one of the most important pieces of my life.Laura-Westman-transcript-11-25.docx​

Aderonke Bademosi Wilson (14:48.923)

What genre of music do you tend to write for and sing?Laura-Westman-transcript-11-25.docx​

Laura Westman (14:57.885)

When I’m just writing for myself, I’m kind of singer-songwriter, but I’m also not very genre-specific. I write and then sort of see what happens. They kind of appear and then it’s like, splat, figure out what to do with that.Laura-Westman-transcript-11-25.docx​

For my most recent album that I put out this year, I had a bunch of songs, and then I worked with a collaborator who is more in the indie rock genre. So we took my kind of singer-songwriter music and gave it a little bit of an indie rock treatment, and I think it sounds quite cool.Laura-Westman-transcript-11-25.docx​

Aderonke Bademosi Wilson (15:38.351)

And can you give us the name of some of the singles or—and I was trying to think, what do they call them? They’re not records, they’re not CDs.Laura-Westman-transcript-11-25.docx​

Laura Westman (15:53.23)

Yeah, these days we could call it an album. This one, the industry shorthand because of the length of it, is called an EP. It’s so funny to use that term because EP stands for “extended play,” which is a record, like an actual short record. So weird.Laura-Westman-transcript-11-25.docx​

My most recent EP is released under my name, Laura Westman, and the title is called “Moves,” because the theme of the album in general is about big moves, like processing change that you’ve created for yourself. The single we released from that album is a song called “Take the Wind.”Laura-Westman-transcript-11-25.docx​

That’s a song that I wrote—you’ll appreciate this story—my now-husband and I took a trip years ago when we were dating. We went on a cruise with the cruise line Croisière de France, and we left from, I think, St. Kitts and took a two-week voyage on this boat over the Atlantic. They… you know, it ended in Barcelona. It was just so many days of ocean—ocean, ocean, ocean. I was so bored, and I wrote this song.Laura-Westman-transcript-11-25.docx​

I love it because you can hear in the song the jaunty, adventury “being on the ocean,” but it’s also just about being in love, and it’s lovely. But I do want to tell you the seed for this particular project. A couple of years ago, I was asked to participate in this project called The Acoustic Guitar Project.Laura-Westman-transcript-11-25.docx​

It’s very neat. It’s an international organization and many major cities have a chapter. They invite a couple of artists every year to spend a week with this very specific guitar and compose a song on it as part of the project. So you have—it’s very cool and equalizing—you don’t have any fancy tech, it’s just you and this guitar.Laura-Westman-transcript-11-25.docx​

I wrote a song called “Bluebird” for that project, and it’s just about how lonely and scared I felt making changes that year. I love the lyrics, I love the song, and I played that song at an open mic. Someone there who was warming up for his set heard me playing, and he asked, “Would you like me to improvise some electric guitar while you play that?” And I was like, that would be lovely. It was so nice.Laura-Westman-transcript-11-25.docx​

Then I said, “Would you like to record that with me sometime?” And he said, “I have a recording studio I’ve been setting up in my attic.” And that became my friendship with Neil, who then produced this entire EP with me. So it’s pretty cool.Laura-Westman-transcript-11-25.docx​

Aderonke Bademosi Wilson (18:51.131)

I love when things happen—they come together at the right time with the right people in order for projects large and small to happen. So congratulations. I’ll put a link to the EP on the podcast page.Laura-Westman-transcript-11-25.docx​

Laura, I’d like our listeners to learn a little bit more about you. Please share three interesting things about yourself that our listeners may not know and your friends will be surprised to learn.Laura-Westman-transcript-11-25.docx​

Laura Westman (19:27.438)

All right, so first, I don’t think your listeners would know I am the author of a self-help book called How to Be Creative in the Age of Digital Noise, which I felt needed to be written for those of us who are creative but having a hard time slowing down to connect with ourselves and getting off our screens and all those things.Laura-Westman-transcript-11-25.docx​

So it’s a book chock-full of all the things I’ve learned about that, but it’s also a story of really being able to rediscover my authentic voice and recover that. I feel like those are related conversations.Laura-Westman-transcript-11-25.docx​

The second thing, like I said, I’ve been a business owner for 13 years, and that just continues to be one of the most interesting creative journeys of my life and really a soul conversation as I reinvent again and look toward the kind of impact I want to have in a different way.Laura-Westman-transcript-11-25.docx​

Then the third thing—it’s so funny, these experiences you have in life that are so seminal to who you become, but you forget about them—I don’t know how many people in my life these days would even know this, but when I was growing up, I went to a magnet school where I lived in Durham, North Carolina. From age seven to thirteen, I went to magnet schools where, as you can see, I’m a white-bodied person, and I was in the racial minority for those years at my school, which is pretty rare in the southern United States.Laura-Westman-transcript-11-25.docx​

It’s something that I feel every day; I reflect on it differently. I think in this day and age, especially here in the US, it’s really important to me to be very forthcoming about that, because of the level of respect and humility that that experience gave me as a white person moving through the world these days, and especially as a coach in a support profession.Laura-Westman-transcript-11-25.docx​

I’m often leading in different spaces, and so I bring with me a specific type of privilege and power sometimes. It’s a pretty important part of who I am and it’s cool to share about.Laura-Westman-transcript-11-25.docx​

Aderonke Bademosi Wilson (22:03.258)

Hmm. Thank you. Thank you.Laura-Westman-transcript-11-25.docx​

Aderonke Bademosi Wilson (22:18.341)

Can you tell us about a recent accomplishment or success that you’re particularly proud of?Laura-Westman-transcript-11-25.docx​

Laura Westman (22:25.002)

Absolutely, yes. So after we released the EP earlier this year, one thing led to another, as it sometimes does in small towns, and I found myself the happy recipient of a performance slot at a local street festival here in New York, the Rosendale Street Festival, which has been going for about 30 years now.Laura-Westman-transcript-11-25.docx​

They accepted me even though I didn’t have a band yet. So Neil and I were like, I guess we have to fill out a band now so that we can go perform this album at the street festival. So we did. We filled out a band and had my first-ever performance of my own music with a full live band this July.Laura-Westman-transcript-11-25.docx​

It was wonderful and scary and delightful and cool. I think even more than the pride I feel toward that as an accomplishment is that we decided the vibe was so good that we would move forward as a band from there. We recently chose a name and I love it. It’s Little Sister. It’s me and Little Sister. It’s wonderful.Laura-Westman-transcript-11-25.docx​

So I feel very proud because, first of all, it really is a dream come true. I think for many years, I would never have admitted that I wanted to be in a band, but it was the secret locked-down dream, you know? So it feels wonderful to be flowing so effortlessly with it and to be working with people who I feel like understand me. The feeling of belonging creatively that I have with them is very empowering to me.Laura-Westman-transcript-11-25.docx​

Aderonke Bademosi Wilson (24:19.067)

How did you know you wanted to be a singer? Did you recognize that you had the kind of voice that would lend itself to performing? Because people sing, right? I can’t sing. I think I’ve mentioned that to you in the past. I am totally, totally tone deaf. I can’t hear a note and produce a note. I can just barely hear the note.Laura-Westman-transcript-11-25.docx​

But how did you know that you had the kind of voice that could take you into a performance realm?Laura-Westman-transcript-11-25.docx​

Laura Westman (24:55.456)

What a question. You know, I think this started when I was a girl, because before I even was auditioning for plays or anything like that, I loved performance. I loved watching musicals. I loved to sing. My father is a very talented piano player.Laura-Westman-transcript-11-25.docx​

When I was growing up, I had to start taking piano lessons very young—I think I started when I was five. It was just a mandate in the household. But my dad would, anytime there was a new Disney movie that came out, buy the piano music, and at the time my mom worked at our local Disney Store. So we would always get first dibs anytime something came out.Laura-Westman-transcript-11-25.docx​

My dad would buy the music and we would have the soundtrack, and we would sing along at the piano. It was part of how we spent time.Laura-Westman-transcript-11-25.docx​

When I was a little bit older, I think middle school was when I started having the opportunity to audition for musicals, and I happened to get a lot of lead roles. For a long time, when I reflect on this time, I never really knew: was it because of my gumption and I just seemed confident and felt comfortable on stage, or did I actually have the singing power to do that?Laura-Westman-transcript-11-25.docx​

Because, Aderonke, when you’re 12 years old and you’re a little girl and you have freckles and your summer camp is casting for Annie, you have one wish, you know, and my wish came true that summer. I got to be Annie, and I had a curly-haired wig and a red dress and the whole thing.Laura-Westman-transcript-11-25.docx​

I think that was probably a very strange moment because it was amazing, obviously, and I think it also set me up to have this expectation of, oh, this is how it goes. This is how it goes for me. I did continue to get parts like that until I was a little bit older. In high school it was more competitive in the school district that I went to, and I was pushing my voice in a way that was not healthy.Laura-Westman-transcript-11-25.docx​

I actually ended up—I think I may have told you this when we connected before, I can’t remember—losing my voice clinically. I had such bad vocal nodes that it was painful to sing, let alone painful to talk sometimes. That was such a shutdown of my system.Laura-Westman-transcript-11-25.docx​

I think that the last 20 years I have worked on a lot of different levels, not only to reclaim that, but also to reclaim my footing in terms of, wait, was I making up that I wasn’t good? Were people just being nice to me because I’m a kid and I felt embarrassed about that?Laura-Westman-transcript-11-25.docx​

The more that I’m doing it and growing into what my voice actually is and actually wants to sound like, and learning how to support that in a healthy way, and working with people who find my voice very interesting instead of trying to force it to be something, I am really… that younger me that started to feel that slip away is getting so much healing and validation.Laura-Westman-transcript-11-25.docx​

It’s almost like I’m reaching through time and getting to say, it’s okay, sweetie, you’re good. Don’t worry.Laura-Westman-transcript-11-25.docx​

Aderonke Bademosi Wilson (28:45.691)

Thank you, thank you for sharing that story. And I can only imagine, given that you were performing, to suddenly lose your voice like that. How long did that loss last?Laura-Westman-transcript-11-25.docx​

Laura Westman (29:01.922)

Well, I think it was acute toward the end of high school. It was really bad, I would say probably for maybe seven to ten years. Part of that was because I was being offered physical therapy for my voice, which I think at a different stage of life would have probably been very helpful.Laura-Westman-transcript-11-25.docx​

But I was a girl in my late teens. I had no connection to my body whatsoever; it’s part of how I got into that mess in the first place. Most of the messages that I was getting at the time about my body were basically, “You should be thinner,” and also, “Push yourself to sound like someone that you don’t sound like.” Just the constant war of messages: disappear, but take up space. It doesn’t make sense.Laura-Westman-transcript-11-25.docx​

So I think part of why vocal therapy wasn’t helpful for me was because I felt so heartbroken and so shut down physically that spending time practicing these little tiny exercises just felt so pointless. I just couldn’t connect to it.Laura-Westman-transcript-11-25.docx​

It was a very slow return on my own terms. I think that began about a decade after it initially started, when I was feeling more interested in connecting with that part of me again and really healing that relationship on my own time. Then I was ready—not to fix it fast. It was a very slow, loving return.Laura-Westman-transcript-11-25.docx​

Aderonke Bademosi Wilson (30:50.171)

Thank you. Thank you, Laura.Laura-Westman-transcript-11-25.docx​

Laura Westman (30:53.038)

Mm-hmm.Laura-Westman-transcript-11-25.docx​

Aderonke Bademosi Wilson (30:55.515)

Can you tell us about a time when you made a difference in another’s life? What were the circumstances? Paint a picture for me.Laura-Westman-transcript-11-25.docx​

Laura Westman (31:04.558)

Okay, so as you know—and I’ll tell listeners because they may not know—my business partner Bea and I just hosted our first-ever in-person women’s retreat. We called it “Falling In”—Falling I-N-N, like it’s the inn of fall. One of the intentions that we had for this retreat was that it be a place where we can imagine if autumn as a season was an actual place where you could go and stay for a couple of days and just literally fall into yourself.Laura-Westman-transcript-11-25.docx​

Rest, reflect, have yummy, cozy food and conversation, and take in your growth for the year in a way that feels very quiet and lovely. So it’s me and seven other women staying in this beautiful little house in Vermont. The house is so beautifully decorated and cozy, and there’s a pellet stove, so it’s being really heated from within, big windows with all of the trees from Vermont just surrounding you. It’s absolutely beautiful.Laura-Westman-transcript-11-25.docx​

One of the things that we did was create a very specific guided meditation for our retreat attendees. If you’ve never done a guided meditation with a transformational intention to it, it’s very interesting because basically you get lulled into this very relaxed meditative state and then you’re guided through some visualizations that reveal things to you about your inner wisdom.Laura-Westman-transcript-11-25.docx​

We created something that was very specific to the theme of this retreat. Afterwards, we were doing a bit of a debrief, and one of the women from the retreat asked this very simple question, but she asked it in such a vulnerable way that I knew something was going on. She asked, “If we’re struggling to think about our visions and what we want next, what would you say? Where should we start?”Laura-Westman-transcript-11-25.docx​

Laura Westman (33:20.608)

Rather than, you know, keeping with the intent of the retreat, of it being very cozy and gentle and nurturing—in another context there might be a more aggressive coaching question that might emerge, I don’t know—but in this one, I just really trusted myself and I said, “Well, you know, sometimes a powerful place to start with that is to connect with our heart’s desire.”Laura-Westman-transcript-11-25.docx​

We spent a little bit of time talking about just the concept of heart’s desire. I could see her stress melt away into this very warm, vulnerable state where she just said, “I have one. I have a heart’s desire. It’s very close. I can feel it.” She asked if she could share it with us, which of course I love—to be the treasure keeper for dreams and heart’s desires and things like that.Laura-Westman-transcript-11-25.docx​

She shared something that felt really hard for her to admit that she really wanted. Throughout the course of the weekend, we continued to touch on the power of her desire, really honoring what had happened. She sent us an email just this week to say, “Hey, here are all the things that have happened since we had that conversation at the retreat.”Laura-Westman-transcript-11-25.docx​

As a result of that conversation about her desire that I got to hold for her, she’s making what look like small changes in her business and at home, but they feel very big to her because the place that they’re coming from is really distinct. I feel so proud of myself that I went soft in supporting her instead of hard.Laura-Westman-transcript-11-25.docx​

I think when it comes to heart’s desire, we have to be willing to be vulnerable and soften toward the things that we want or else we can scare them away really fast.Laura-Westman-transcript-11-25.docx​

Aderonke Bademosi Wilson (35:35.609)

What were the key strengths and qualities you relied on to make a difference in this instance?Laura-Westman-transcript-11-25.docx​

Laura Westman (35:42.766)

Well, definitely trusting myself and trusting her, and also a willingness to honor her above my own idea of where we were supposed to go.Laura-Westman-transcript-11-25.docx​

I think the other thing that really made a difference was what I can only describe as my own type of gentle leadership. There’s a lot of intention behind coaching containers. You set them up in a certain way, and people have different experiences being transformed in different containers.Laura-Westman-transcript-11-25.docx​

In this one, I had a very strong feeling that if we actually set this up to be transformation through rest, vulnerability, coziness, no pressure, that miracles would occur. I’m just so happy because it seems like they have.Laura-Westman-transcript-11-25.docx​

Aderonke Bademosi Wilson (36:51.772)

Thank you.Laura-Westman-transcript-11-25.docx​

Can you recall a situation where you overcame a challenge that led to personal growth? What did you learn from that experience?Laura-Westman-transcript-11-25.docx​

Laura Westman (37:05.646)

Oh my gosh, well, I was thinking I would share with you about losing my voice and bringing it back, but we’ve kind of already talked about that a bit. I think, though, to be more specific about the learning from that experience…Laura-Westman-transcript-11-25.docx​

Laura Westman (37:29.44)

It’s interesting because the loss of my physical voice also connects to the autoimmune disease that I developed, Hashimoto’s, which is of the thyroid. It’s where your thyroid stops working and your body has a particular approach to dealing with that, which is to attack it basically.Laura-Westman-transcript-11-25.docx​

So, you know, from an outside view, there’s a lot happening in that energy center for me, right? I’ve lost my voice, my ability to communicate, and then my thyroid—the gland right here that really regulates everything—is also being shut down. The path to healing was very interesting, linear in some ways, not linear in others, requiring a lot of leaps of faith.Laura-Westman-transcript-11-25.docx​

I think some of the most important learnings from that experience are what land me squarely in the life that I’m living now, which is shedding a light on how things actually are for me, distinct from how I think they’re supposed to be, and learning how to understand my own sensitivities—physical and emotional and spiritual—so that they are things that I can use to support me and help me thrive instead of feeling like they’re getting in the way.Laura-Westman-transcript-11-25.docx​

It feels like a very big journey to boil down into that little of a sentiment, but I think it’s important because I work with a lot of leaders who find themselves nervous that they’re too sensitive to do the kind of work that they do. So much of my own healing journey has been about moving from a place of being exhausted by my sensitivity and worried, to being somebody who actually finds a lot of strength in that sensitivity.Laura-Westman-transcript-11-25.docx​

Because I’m not buckling under it anymore; I’m supporting it and using it to my advantage in the spaces where I lead. It’s kind of interesting, too, with my literal singing voice, because for so long I thought that I was supposed to have this big Broadway sound.Laura-Westman-transcript-11-25.docx​

When I started getting back into singing and getting curious about my actual sound and following what felt really good—not only what felt good, but what felt resonant for me, where I could feel some emotion clicking in for me while singing, which I think is a particular strength of my singing voice—I learned it’s not that I don’t have the perfect Broadway voice. It’s more that I have so many different types of voice and they were all battling against each other.Laura-Westman-transcript-11-25.docx​

Laura Westman (40:19.02)

Now I’m in a place where I’m actually exploring all of these different timbres where I can sing, and it’s so delightful and filled with surprises. It’s absolutely wonderful.Laura-Westman-transcript-11-25.docx​

It’s a cool metaphor for leadership as well, where I think we often think in leadership, especially when you’re working on your voice as a leader, that we’re supposed to be one thing. We’re supposed to have this one thing we’re known for or this one strength, this one way that we are. I think the cool opportunity there is to get curious about, what’s the range that I have in my voice as a leader?Laura-Westman-transcript-11-25.docx​

What are all of the different shades that I can bring? From there, getting interested in expanding your comfortability using them. So it really is more about connecting with what’s authentic, holding ourselves as really capable of having lots of different shades and lots of different tools, and being willing to find the beauty in all of them. I think it’s an ego conversation to want to have one and excel in it.Laura-Westman-transcript-11-25.docx​

Aderonke Bademosi Wilson (41:33.244)

Hmm. Thank you, Laura. You are listening to ABWilson’s Heart of the Matter podcast.Laura-Westman-transcript-11-25.docx​

Welcome back to ABWilson’s Heart of the Matter. My guest today is Laura Westman. Laura, we’ve talked about your dream life. We’ve talked about your singing career. We’ve talked about, and I’m going to say this, ontological coaching. What do you do for self-care? What strategies help you to sustain your energy and motivation while navigating your journey?Laura-Westman-transcript-11-25.docx​

Laura Westman (42:14.338)

Fantastic question, very ontological question. I’m going to share with you what I have learned in terms of my best practices for me, but I want you to know these didn’t just… I didn’t roll out of bed one day and think, these things will help.Laura-Westman-transcript-11-25.docx​

A couple of years ago, I went on a very intentional stress elimination diet, so to speak. From that, I started experimenting and learning—to the point I was making earlier about starting to understand my sensitivities—and learning about what supports me the best.Laura-Westman-transcript-11-25.docx​

So, I, as you know, love to dream, but I also have a practice of “protecting my sleep.” This is something that I had to start learning about at the beginning of my autoimmune journey, because my body needed to rest and I couldn’t do it because I was so wound up and so anxious. With a thyroid problem, your body is not really functioning as a whole unit. There’s a lot going on.Laura-Westman-transcript-11-25.docx​

That was when I started getting curious about protecting my sleep. Now I do it not only for the benefits of rest, but also because, as you know, dreaming is an important part of my life. Lots of protecting of my sleep.Laura-Westman-transcript-11-25.docx​

Another self-care practice is joy, and all of the different ways that we can encounter joy. I find that, ontologically speaking, when I’m trying to grow my leadership and grow my impact, part of my self-care needs to be experiencing things like joy and connection on a regular basis.Laura-Westman-transcript-11-25.docx​

Another self-care practice: every day I spend time getting into my body in a certain way. I’ll tell you, it’s one of four things: a long nature walk—and where I live is very beautiful, so every time of year there’s something cool to see on a long nature walk—I go swimming, I love to swim, swimming is one of my favorite activities of all; or I go lift weights, or I go spend some time on the elliptical at the gym.Laura-Westman-transcript-11-25.docx​

Laura Westman (44:38.102)

I like to use my body in a lot of different ways, and those different types of exercise provide a lot of different benefits, but what’s most important is getting out of my anxious mind and getting into my body on a daily basis. I love to do that.Laura-Westman-transcript-11-25.docx​

I have a lot of restrictions for myself around screen time, and I think that’s really critical. Also, as a practice—as a self-care practice—intimacy in my relationships. Intimacy and vulnerability. When we’re leading anything, and I consider myself a leader in many different spaces right now, not only in my coaching business but also with the podcast and the community that we lead there, and also just a leader in my life, being the person at the helm of my life, the more that we’re trying to expand our capacity to achieve things that are really important to us, our self-care also has to be up.Laura-Westman-transcript-11-25.docx​

I think that most people put pressure on the individualistic needs like “my gym time,” which I know I just told you about my gym time, but consider the needs of the spirit. For me, intimacy in my relationships is a huge boost of power, and it’s also a place where it helps me be vulnerable when I need help. So I do consider intimacy and vulnerability in my close relationships a self-care practice.Laura-Westman-transcript-11-25.docx​

Aderonke Bademosi Wilson (46:08.614)

So I want to touch on two things: restrictions around screen time—is it the number of hours that you are in front of a screen or on your phone? And intimacy and vulnerability around relationships. I want to understand what that looks like, what that feels like, and how do you create it so that the other person is involved in the process?Laura-Westman-transcript-11-25.docx​

And I’m not sure that’s the right question to ask, but I’d like to start there.Laura-Westman-transcript-11-25.docx​

Laura Westman (46:46.786)

That’s great. So let me answer the screen time thing first. Let me caveat this by saying I’m not perfect at this, but I know the crazy version of me that gets created when I spend too much time on something like Instagram. I’m no longer in my body. I’m not connected to my home or my community. Something’s happening—I’m sort of like my soul is getting sucked into my phone. You know what I’m talking about.Laura-Westman-transcript-11-25.docx​

Aderonke Bademosi Wilson (47:03.548)

Mm-hmm.Laura-Westman-transcript-11-25.docx​

Laura Westman (47:16.13)

Especially around intense cultural moments—you know, we’ve had a lot of those in my country this year, you may have heard—and those are times where it’s almost like no matter what people are saying on social media about whatever’s happening, it’s making me feel worse about whatever’s happening, even if I agree with it or something.Laura-Westman-transcript-11-25.docx​

With that level of awareness about the effect that it has on me, and the understanding that these things are designed to make us addicted to them, right—we’re not supposed to be able to willpower ourselves out of just opening those apps all the time—what I did, knowing the impact this has on me, was I bought this device that’s called Brick. Have you heard of Brick before?Laura-Westman-transcript-11-25.docx​

Aderonke Bademosi Wilson (48:09.67)

Mm-mm, I haven’t.Laura-Westman-transcript-11-25.docx​

Laura Westman (48:12.792)

Brick is so cool because it has a little app that it connects to and you can create these modes that restrict what you’re able to access on your phone at different times. But the thing that’s really cool about it is that in order to change the mode, you have to take your phone to a physical little thing that they send you. It’s like a fridge magnet, and you have to tap it physically in order to make changes to what you can access.Laura-Westman-transcript-11-25.docx​

The reason why I love this so much is because you have to physically go somewhere to change what’s available. I can literally turn my phone into just a little tool for maps, music, messages—everything else not allowed. If I actually want to change that for myself, I have to physically go to a place in my house where the little Brick lives and make that change manually.Laura-Westman-transcript-11-25.docx​

There’s something about that that is so delightfully freeing. It’s so great, because I find in this particular era of my life, where I’m learning more about myself as an artist and living more into a sense of peace and serenity and creativity, being able to feel like I am free from the input of digital noise is incredible.Laura-Westman-transcript-11-25.docx​

Aderonke Bademosi Wilson (49:15.216)

Hmm.Laura-Westman-transcript-11-25.docx​

Laura Westman (49:43.374)

So I love that. I have different modes. I have one that is like, if things are really bad and I just need no triggers whatsoever, I have that mode. But then I also have one that’s like, okay, a little bit is okay. It’s really wonderful. I recommend it to all of my clients. Most of my clients have one at this point because it just gives you so much more command over what kind of input you’re receiving.Laura-Westman-transcript-11-25.docx​

Aderonke Bademosi Wilson (50:03.333)

Okay.Laura-Westman-transcript-11-25.docx​

Aderonke Bademosi Wilson (50:06.758)

Because I know sometimes I’ll be sitting here working and something will pop up and I’ll be like… and then I click on it. And then you’re down that rabbit hole, right? Because somebody sent you something that they’re feeling, or in a chat that they’re sharing with the group, and it’s a funny or it’s something serious. And you’re down the rabbit hole. And I’m like, but I was working.Laura-Westman-transcript-11-25.docx​

Laura Westman (50:16.47)

I know.Laura-Westman-transcript-11-25.docx​

Laura Westman (50:25.518)

That’s right. It happens in an instant.Laura-Westman-transcript-11-25.docx​

Laura Westman (50:35.04)

I know. And then it’s just gone. And this is also one of, I think, the higher bird’s-eye views of this for me: this is a lot of what ontological coaching is about, getting really intentional about how we spend our time and energy and our focus. So to me, limiting screen time like this is probably one of my greatest productivity—but also peace and relaxation—tools.Laura-Westman-transcript-11-25.docx​

Aderonke Bademosi Wilson (51:03.932)

Mmm, thank you, thank you for sharing that.Laura-Westman-transcript-11-25.docx​

Laura Westman (51:06.944)

Mm-hmm. Well, the other thing that you asked was about intimacy and vulnerability.Laura-Westman-transcript-11-25.docx​

Maybe the simplest thing to share about it is that I’ve learned about myself that I feel most powerful in my day-to-day life when I’m very attuned to myself and when I feel a sense of harmony with the people I’m around. So I have practices for that self-attunement, like a morning journal, and like I said, exercise is really great for that.Laura-Westman-transcript-11-25.docx​

But I often think that just being able to connect intimately with the people close to me is a very stabilizing force. For example, my husband—he and I both work from home—and at the end of the day I just like to find out how his day was, what’s going on with him. That’s often a place too where, if I’m feeling anxious about my day or anything, I like to be forthcoming about it because when we talk about it, usually my anxieties melt away, just by the very nature of giving them a voice and being connected over them instead of them just being up here.Laura-Westman-transcript-11-25.docx​

To me, that’s a pretty important part of my relational health. I will also say that in ontological work, relationship is a very important tenet. The quality of our relationships is something that can bring us more and more power and support and clarity as we go, especially if we bring a lot of intention to it.Laura-Westman-transcript-11-25.docx​

Sometimes what I support people with is actually figuring out, what are the key relationships where I could be receiving more support simply through changing what we’re talking about or how I’m showing up? Those are always very rich, cool, vulnerable conversations.Laura-Westman-transcript-11-25.docx​

To the overarching conversation about understanding my own sensitivity, I think because I’m a very intuitive person, I often need a lot of relational stability. I like knowing what’s going on with people close to me, especially people that I’m working with in that kind of partnership.Laura-Westman-transcript-11-25.docx​

I don’t know, is there anything else you want to know about that?Laura-Westman-transcript-11-25.docx​

Aderonke Bademosi Wilson (53:45.02)

No, this is fine. This is fine. Thank you. Thank you.Laura-Westman-transcript-11-25.docx​

Laura Westman (53:47.222)

Okay, cool. Yeah.Laura-Westman-transcript-11-25.docx​

Aderonke Bademosi Wilson (53:56.54)

So, Laura, how might sharing your experiences of success and growth create a positive ripple effect in your family, community, the world?Laura-Westman-transcript-11-25.docx​

Laura Westman (54:15.596)

Wow, what a question.Laura-Westman-transcript-11-25.docx​

Well, I think that in general what I have observed is that when I share vulnerably with anybody around me, stuff happens. The immediate ripple effect: vulnerability begets vulnerability, joy begets joy.Laura-Westman-transcript-11-25.docx​

I think when I share with people around me, number one, I like to think that my joy is a bit infectious and it’s contagious and it gets on people. When I get to share the things I’m lit up about and succeeding in—like my band, for example—you see, you’re smiling even when I’m talking about this, right? I think it gives people permission to get interested in theirs too.Laura-Westman-transcript-11-25.docx​

If they see me shining in a way that matters to me, I’m glad if they’re happy for me, but I hope that they’re also interested in what’s their shine and how can they move closer to that.Laura-Westman-transcript-11-25.docx​

I also think that people close to me and my family, for example, we’ve been through a lot in the last 10 to 15 years as a family. I really hope and think that when I get to share the things that I’m succeeding in, it feels like everybody’s success, and that they can relax more and rest a bit easier knowing that they did good, I did good, we’re doing good.Laura-Westman-transcript-11-25.docx​

Aderonke Bademosi Wilson (55:55.772)

Thank you for sharing. What exciting opportunities do you see on the horizon, and how do these opportunities align with your passions and aspirations?Laura-Westman-transcript-11-25.docx​

Laura Westman (56:07.404)

Well, number one, Little Sister has a show coming up in November. I’m so excited.Laura-Westman-transcript-11-25.docx​

Aderonke Bademosi Wilson (56:13.402)

Congratulations.Laura-Westman-transcript-11-25.docx​

Laura Westman (56:37.644)

Thank you. It’s a direct line to my passion, so that’s so exciting. But also West of Wonderland has a pretty exciting year ahead. We’re planning for a few more retreats in 2026, some that I think will be more oriented to supporting women business owners to have a lot of joy in their leadership and creativity.Laura-Westman-transcript-11-25.docx​

I find myself very passionate about this—about helping people who are leading their own businesses feel really alive in their business leadership. Because when you’re in charge of it, it can really feel like such a burden or something rote. I love finding ways to get people lit up and excited about that.Laura-Westman-transcript-11-25.docx​

Our podcast, West of Wonderland, we say that West of Wonderland is your leadership and personal development theme park, because we like to make it really fun.Laura-Westman-transcript-11-25.docx​

Aderonke Bademosi Wilson (57:13.954)

And how can people find out more about both your retreats and your podcast?Laura-Westman-transcript-11-25.docx​

Laura Westman (57:20.352)

Yes, well, you can listen to West of Wonderland podcast anywhere that you stream podcasts. It’s called West of Wonderland. Our website is evolving. Soon, westofwonderlandconsulting.com will be available, and that is a place where you should be able to find tons of information.Laura-Westman-transcript-11-25.docx​

But just give me one second to confirm this… westofwonderlandconsulting.com/retreats should be a place where you can sign up to get on our mailing list. Though I don’t think that’s it—I’m so sorry that I don’t actually know what that is.Laura-Westman-transcript-11-25.docx​

Aderonke Bademosi Wilson (57:59.644)

It’s okay. You can send it to me and I’ll put it on the page with your podcast details.Laura-Westman-transcript-11-25.docx​

Laura Westman (58:11.128)

Okay.Laura-Westman-transcript-11-25.docx​

Laura Westman (58:16.15)

Okay, great. I will say in case anybody is wondering, if you go to my website, laurawestman.com, you can get on my newsletter, and the people on my newsletter get everything about West of Wonderland too. So maybe that’s the simplest thing.Laura-Westman-transcript-11-25.docx​

Aderonke Bademosi Wilson (58:29.22)

Okay, excellent. Laura, you touched on vulnerability, you touched on joy. I want to zero in a little bit more on the joy. What brings you joy?Laura-Westman-transcript-11-25.docx​

Laura Westman (58:44.504)

Well, talking about dreams. Roller coasters—that’s a new one. I used to be really scared of roller coasters and now they bring me such joy and happiness. Listening to music, playing music, singing.Laura-Westman-transcript-11-25.docx​

I love having real conversations with people about the things that they love. This summer I did something that I was really proud of, actually, which was I passed this crazy swim test to join a distance swimmers association for this beautiful lake in my town. You have to jump through a lot of hoops to be able to go swim in this area.Laura-Westman-transcript-11-25.docx​

I have to say that this summer, getting to go swim for hours in this beautiful cold lake brought me a level of joy that I didn’t even know was accessible.Laura-Westman-transcript-11-25.docx​

Aderonke Bademosi Wilson (59:47.878)

Congratulations.Laura-Westman-transcript-11-25.docx​

Laura Westman (59:48.782)

Thank you.Laura-Westman-transcript-11-25.docx​

Aderonke Bademosi Wilson (59:53.968)

What book recommendations do you have? It can be a book you’ve read recently or something that has stayed with you over the years.Laura-Westman-transcript-11-25.docx​

Laura Westman (01:00:03.102)

So I have one that’s nonfiction and one that’s fiction. Is that okay?Laura-Westman-transcript-11-25.docx​

Aderonke Bademosi Wilson (01:00:08.497)

Absolutely.Laura-Westman-transcript-11-25.docx​

Laura Westman (01:00:31.79)

Okay. So the nonfiction—I’m actually in the middle of reading this right now—is a book called Romancing the Shadow. This is a book—it’s very ontological—about our shadow side and using mythology to help ourselves navigate our shadow.Laura-Westman-transcript-11-25.docx​

Our shadow is—this is a gross overgeneralization—the part of us that includes the things that we believe are unacceptable and that get banished into a shadow. A lot of ontological work is actually about learning how to balance out your, we could call it your daytime self and your shadow self, your nighttime self.Laura-Westman-transcript-11-25.docx​

Then fiction-wise, there is a French book series—it’s so funny because I don’t read a lot of books in the fantasy genre most of the time, it’s not quite my place. But a few years ago, I read this book, it’s called A Winter’s Promise. It’s by a French author named Christelle Dabos, and it’s the first book in a series of four.Laura-Westman-transcript-11-25.docx​

It’s a tale of this woman named Ophelia who has a particular type of magic called animism, where she can animate objects with her hands. She is basically getting married off to this dude on this other planet and goes on this kind of wild goose chase for a couple of books to get to the bottom of a particular mystery.Laura-Westman-transcript-11-25.docx​

I find myself returning to this book series every winter, I think because it’s so introspective and atmospheric, and so much of the themes of the story are really about trusting your own intuition, especially when things are confusing and when the systems around you are telling you something really different. She’s a very unconventional heroine, but I love her story for that reason.Laura-Westman-transcript-11-25.docx​

Aderonke Bademosi Wilson (01:02:12.39)

Thank you. I’ll look for it. I’m not familiar with that book, so I’ll definitely have a look out for it. Laura, do you have any final thoughts?Laura-Westman-transcript-11-25.docx​

Laura Westman (01:02:25.4)

Well, thank you so much for having me. It’s so wonderful to be in a space of appreciation together and get to share about the things that I love. I think I’d just like to leave people with a permission slip to be curious about their next dream.Laura-Westman-transcript-11-25.docx​

Aderonke Bademosi Wilson (01:02:51.014)

Thank you. Thank you so much. I’m just writing that down.Laura-Westman-transcript-11-25.docx​

Aderonke Bademosi Wilson (01:02:59.814)

So Laura, thank you so much for your time today. Here are some of the appreciation nuggets that I’m taking away from our conversation. You’ve explained what ontological coaching is; I think that has helped so many listeners. I know our mutual friend Jessica—I always ask her, “Okay, so tell me about ontological coaching,” and so I got to hear about it another time, which is really great.Laura-Westman-transcript-11-25.docx​

And the work that you do is something to help people have better lives that are better suited for them. That’s something that you said. You also mentioned your book, How to Be Creative in the Age of Digital Noise, and I’ll make sure that that’s listed because I think more and more people are going to be looking for ways to get away from technology, because it’s so integrated into just about every aspect of our lives.Laura-Westman-transcript-11-25.docx​

You talked about a device called the Brick, which sounds really cool. You called it “delightfully freeing.” You also shared about vulnerability and joy. You said “vulnerability begets vulnerability, joy begets joy.” I appreciate you sharing your thoughts on both.Laura-Westman-transcript-11-25.docx​

I appreciate you taking the time to join me on ABWilson’s Heart of the Matter, a podcast dedicated to asking overwhelmingly positive questions as we uncover incredible stories and wisdom of people you may know. Laura Westman, thank you so much for being here today.

Laura Westman (01:05:08.93)

Thank you so much for having me.