S3 Ep6. Horse Culture and Human Healing with Melba Holliday: What Horses Teach Us About Leading and Listening with Heart

This episode of ABWilson’s Heart of the Matter with guest Melba Holliday invites listeners into a rich conversation about healing, courage and the wisdom we can learn from horses and nature. 

Melba shares how her early experience of not feeling heard shaped her lifelong commitment to deep, transformational listening, as a mother and as a coach and how she helps clients feel truly seen and understood. She explores the power of partnering with her heart horse Ryder in experiential coaching, illustrating how on-the-ground work with horses helps leaders shift from force to influence, embody shared leadership and become more congruent, compassionate versions of themselves.

Melba also opens up about her journey through depression and burnout during the 2008 financial crisis, how asking for help transformed her life and how movement, time with her horse and listening to her body remain vital self-care practices today. 

Throughout the episode, she weaves in stories of adventurous living, from wild dolphin swims to cross-country moves and high-ropes facilitation, demonstrating how stepping outside our comfort zones can reveal our inner strength and deepen our connection to others and the world around us.

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Transcript

Aderonke Bademosi Wilson (00:02.508)

Welcome to another edition of ABWilson’s Heart of the Matter, a podcast that uses overwhelmingly positive questions to learn about our guests, where every episode uncovers extraordinary stories of triumph, growth and empowerment. Hi, I’m Aderonke Bademosi Wilson, and my guest on today’s show is Melba Holliday. Melba is a listener, adventurous, and an equestrian. Well, welcome to the show, Melba.​

Melba Holliday (00:38.706)

Thank you. Thank you, Aderonke. So good to be here with you today.​

Aderonke Bademosi Wilson (00:44.152)

And Melba, I want you to, let’s delve a little deeper into your descriptors. Tell me about being an equestrian.​

Melba Holliday (00:56.296)

I grew up with horses. They’ve always been in my life. And as an adult, as I launched my life, I did not have a horse. But my younger daughter, when she was nine, she loved horses, began in Pony Club, and that brought them back into my life.​

I had an experience in life where I learned that I could also work with my horse in partnership as a coach. We have owned and leased different horses over the years. I have a horse now that I have had for five years. People in the equestrian world sometimes talk about their “heart horse,” and he is definitely that for me. He has taught me so much. I enjoy riding him and having that connection with him. My horse is a big part of my personal life and also in a partnership in my work life as a coach.​

Aderonke Bademosi Wilson (02:09.036)

So I have never really been around horses and do not know much about them. So first of all, where do you keep your horse? Do you have it near your house or at your house or at a stable? What is that?​

Melba Holliday (02:28.763)

He is at a farm within 10 minutes from my home, so he is very close. Where he is boarded, he lives in a herd. So he is on what we call field board, and trails are close by.​

So I do a lot of trail riding and trail challenges with him.​

Aderonke Bademosi Wilson (02:54.944)

And you said earlier that you can lease a horse. What is leasing a horse?​

Melba Holliday (03:01.361)

People will have horses and, as an example, one of the horses that my daughter leased, a young woman had been in Pony Club, she was now in college, she had a beautiful Irish Sport Horse and she was away in college, so we took over the board and care. During the time that my daughter Elizabeth rode him, that was the lease agreement. She remains the owner, but we were taking care of the expenses and also working with the horse.​

Aderonke Bademosi Wilson (03:37.932)

And what is your horse’s name?​

Melba Holliday (03:40.857)

My horse’s name is Ryder. R Y D E R.​

Aderonke Bademosi Wilson (03:47.512)

Thank you. Thank you for sharing a little bit more about horses. And I want to circle back to it in a little bit, when you say that you are in business with your horse. So I really want to learn a little bit more about that. Melba, tell me about being a listener. What does that mean for you?​

Melba Holliday (03:54.759)

Mm-hmm.​

Melba Holliday (04:09.262)

That is really important to me in my life. My experience growing up was I was not listened to, I did not feel listened to, and there was this one very important period of time in my life. I was 18, really struggling, and my parents, my family, had moved. I was in Florida, they lived in Colorado. I was not eating, I was anorexic at the time, but I called my mother because I was struggling and her response to me was, “You will be fine.” And I just felt very, very alone and not understood.​

In our work, we talk about reversing the curse or maybe something of an inheritance, and that became so important to me in my life. My girls know that I am always there and I will listen, and listen in a way just to understand them.​

In the work that I do, I also listen in a way, I will tell you a little bit more. In 2017, I worked with a woman named Judith E. Glaser, becoming certified in Conversational Intelligence. Of course, when you think of conversation, you think about speaking, but I also learned a lot about listening. And in listening, listening can be transactional, listening in a way to protect. Listening can be positional, listening in a way to accept or reject what someone is saying. And then there is transformational listening, and that is listening in a way to connect with someone. And the way that I listen to people in my life and also to my clients is really listening to connect.​

Aderonke Bademosi Wilson (06:18.272)

Is this something that can be taught? Can listening be taught to people?​

Melba Holliday (06:24.932)

I do, yes. That is much of what I learned from Judith E. Glaser: how we listen, listening without judgment, listening without the need to be right, and listening in a way to understand someone. And so, this visual of standing under someone’s umbrella of reality, side by side, looking through their lens of reality.​

Aderonke Bademosi Wilson (06:57.582)

Can you tell me some more about that? I am just curious, because I know in the work that I do, one of the exercises I get my participants to do is listen without asking questions, to just listen. And when I get feedback, they are like, I needed to say something, but I just remembered I just had to listen. And it changes the dynamic for the people in that conversation, and it is usually just two people, maybe it is three. But tell me more about your process.​

Melba Holliday (07:31.229)

Mm-hmm.​

Melba Holliday (07:36.014)

When I am listening to someone, it is listening with love, seeing their highest self, listening with curiosity. I also will share, “Here is what I am understanding. Is that accurate?” It gives a person the opportunity to affirm or say, “No, this is what I meant.” That is what I mean by listening to understand. It is also listening to their body language, their breathing, what their unconscious is communicating through their language.​

Aderonke Bademosi Wilson (08:20.587)

Hmm. Thank you.​

Melba Holliday (08:21.639)

I would add one more thing. It is also listening to myself. What am I experiencing, feeling?​

Aderonke Bademosi Wilson (08:35.350)

Listening to self, people may not necessarily think of that immediately when you say listening, right? It is usually outward. And as you have described it, transactional, positional, transformational, it is usually outward. How does it feel when you listen inward?​

Melba Holliday (08:46.063)

Mm-hmm.​

Melba Holliday (09:01.219)

If I am working with a client and maybe we begin to approach a subject that may be sensitive for them, I begin to feel that in my gut or maybe I feel it in my heart. Sometimes I might say, “My spidey sense is telling me this,” or, “I am feeling this right now.” And so it allows that conversation to open up in maybe a new way or a new direction.​

Aderonke Bademosi Wilson (09:38.690)

Thank you, Melba. And being adventurous.​

Melba Holliday (09:44.592)

Yes, I am energized by new experiences, whether that is with people or places or ideas, activities. I am someone who is very physically active. I love experiences and I like challenging myself physically because I learn about myself that way, stepping outside my comfort zone.​

Aderonke Bademosi Wilson (10:16.728)

Can you share an adventure that you have been on that has stayed with you?​

Melba Holliday (10:24.247)

I did a wild dolphin swim on a liveaboard catamaran. I knew the person who was hosting this event, but I did not know anyone else. This was a small group of maybe 20 people, and I went on that by myself, not knowing anyone on this liveaboard, small catamaran, sharing a small stateroom. Literally, you open the door and there are two bunks, with a woman I had never met.​

It was definitely a spiritual experience for me. Swimming with the dolphin, this catamaran, we left Fort Lauderdale. We were sailing toward the Bahamas, but the catamaran would anchor out and we would just wait for the dolphin to come. They were not coaxing them with food. When the dolphin would come to the boat, then we would jump in and swim with them.​

In preparation for this, I had practiced free diving because we were in about 30 feet of water, swimming down to the bottom, spiraling up. Dolphins like to play in that way. To have that experience and swim with a wild dolphin was the most exhilarating and, again, to me was this spiritual experience of connecting on that level. It was amazing.​

Aderonke Bademosi Wilson (12:06.038)

It really does sound… The word that came to my mind was “breathtaking,” but I am not sure that is quite the word.​

Melba Holliday (12:14.054)

Yes.​

Well, I was holding my breath, but I had practiced. I had a large lung capacity at that point.​

Aderonke Bademosi Wilson (12:17.838)

You…​

Aderonke Bademosi Wilson (12:24.770)

Wow, thank you. Thank you. And do you know how many dolphins were there? Was it just one? Was it several?​

Melba Holliday (12:32.828)

They come together in a pod, so there were maybe four or five that were swimming with us. But I did have an interaction with one dolphin that came so close to me. When you are in the water with a dolphin, they are so large, but I felt safe and I could feel the energy of this dolphin swimming by me. It was amazing, extraordinary, and breathtaking.​

Aderonke Bademosi Wilson (13:07.022)

One of the things that I do understand about dolphins is that they are very intelligent as measured by human intelligence. Did you feel that at all?​

Melba Holliday (13:09.797)

Yeah.​

Melba Holliday (13:22.278)

I did. And the other thing I would add about dolphins is that they live in perfect harmony with their environment.​

Melba Holliday (13:32.814)

We have so much to learn from nature, and when we talk more about horses as well, just what I have learned from them and how to be a better human being.​

Aderonke Bademosi Wilson (13:44.430)

Hmm.​

Thank you, Melba.​

Aderonke Bademosi Wilson (13:52.782)

Please share three interesting things about yourself that our listeners may not know and friends will be surprised to learn.​

Melba Holliday (14:03.249)

Well, I am a motorcyclist. I have been riding for over 20 years. When I first met my husband, Edward, he was on the bike all dressed in black leather, so that began my motorcycling experience. For a time I rode on the back with him, but there came a period after about seven years where I said, “I really think I would like to have my own bike.”​

So I went through the motorcycle safety training, bought my first bike, and then our children rode with us from the ages of four and two. I think that is kind of unusual for a mom to allow her babies. We did have a sidecar for the two-year-old. It is something that has been a part of our lives, it brings our family together, and both my daughters are just amazing riders as well. So we all ride our own motorcycles.​

Aderonke Bademosi Wilson (15:09.752)

Thank you. Did you have two others?​

Melba Holliday (15:14.087)

The second one, I am an experiential Project Adventure trainer. In the 90s, when I was in Pennsylvania, I led corporate groups through high ropes. I had partnered with an organization called Tressler Lutheran Services, and they have a 200 acre property and on the property was a 60 foot alpine tower with a zip line. We would design team building experiential activities where we would climb and rappel and belay down and go off zip lines, and then go into the woods and do high ropes challenges.​

Melba Holliday (16:04.507)

The third thing about me that people may not know is that two weeks after I met my husband, he asked me to marry him. I was living in Boca Raton, Florida, had a very successful personal training business. He was in Pennsylvania. I said yes. And then, in just a couple of months, I closed my life in Boca Raton, Florida and moved to Pennsylvania, another great adventure.​

Aderonke Bademosi Wilson (16:35.918)

And after two weeks, that is, for some, I will not say for all, for some that may seem quick. Did it feel quick to you?​

Melba Holliday (16:47.591)

Your audio is breaking up just a little bit. Can you ask that question again?​

Aderonke Bademosi Wilson (16:53.422)

Sure. I said two weeks after knowing your husband, you said yes. For some people that may feel a little quick. Did it feel quick to you? Did it feel like it was extremely fast after knowing somebody for such a short period of time?​

Melba Holliday (17:00.101)

Yes.​

Melba Holliday (17:13.187)

It felt right to me. My whole body was a yes. The people around me, it felt very quick to them and it scared them, but I knew that was the right thing to do for me.​

Aderonke Bademosi Wilson (17:30.144)

And how long have you been married?​

Melba Holliday (17:33.991)

Thirty years.​

Aderonke Bademosi Wilson (17:35.480)

Hmm.​

Aderonke Bademosi Wilson (17:39.768)

Thank you, Melba. Thank you for sharing those stories.​

Melba Holliday (17:45.799)

My pleasure.​

Aderonke Bademosi Wilson (17:48.760)

Can you tell us about a recent accomplishment or success that you are particularly proud of?​

Melba Holliday (17:57.192)

Yes. In 2025, that marked 11 years of serving one of our clients, which is the Special Operators Transition Foundation. Over those 11 years, I have had the opportunity to work with over a thousand special operators or veterans transitioning from the battlefield to the boardroom, into the private sector. A reason that I am so very proud of that is when we were introduced to the organization, they were just two months into the inception of starting the organization.​

I was introduced to them, they did not have a program. They had a clear mission of what they wanted to do, which was to help place special operators into the corporate world in positions where they would be able to demonstrate their critical thinking, they often have advanced degrees, their work ethic, their leadership. The goal was to help to position them properly within an organization.​

They asked, “How can you help?” So we started with coaching, and over the first two years developed a process in which we were helping to prepare special operators to have clarity of direction in which they were moving, have a clear value proposition statement, and be able to communicate what makes them unique and different as a candidate. Really celebrating what we have been able to accomplish together, it has been an important partnership in my life.​

Aderonke Bademosi Wilson (19:52.078)

Thank you. And it sounds like important work, right? Because when you have people with very specialized skills moving in a different direction, to be able to help them process and maybe even assimilate in some instances.​

Melba Holliday (20:02.833)

Yes.​

Melba Holliday (20:09.381)

Yes, yes. And it truly is a reinvention, looking at their life and career.​

Melba Holliday (20:21.113)

And recognizing the value that they bring, being comfortable talking about themselves and their experiences and how they can help an organization.​

Aderonke Bademosi Wilson (20:37.304)

I appreciate you sharing. Tell us about a time when you made a difference in another’s life. What were the circumstances? Paint a picture for me.​

Melba Holliday (20:50.797)

In the coaching work that we do, we make a difference in many ways, sometimes working with a client over a year or months, or it could happen very, very quickly. The story that I am going to share with you is a veteran client that I was working with. This is a woman who was a senior leader, had led hundreds of people in her career, and she was transitioning into the private sector.​

We had worked together to prepare her. She was very clear about her strengths and value proposition. She did step into a role in the private sector, a good position, well compensated. When I was working with her, she was out of state. I am in the Maryland area. She did accept a position in the D.C. area.​

We were talking about what she was experiencing in her new role and she was feeling very frustrated. I invited her to come to the farm. “Let’s have a session together in partnership with my horse.” When she arrived at the farm, I asked her to tell me a little bit more about the challenge that she was experiencing and what she would like to focus on today. She shared that in her role, she was working with someone who was lazy, not as committed as what she had expected. What she was struggling with was that she was in a position where she did not have the authority to make any changes.​

So that was how we started with the focus of our work. The work that I do in partnership with my clients and the horses is all on the ground. They are not riding the horse, but they may be leading a horse with a lead rope. There is an experience that I take my clients through with the horse.​

The first thing that I ask her to do is just to meet the horse and make a connection, to focus on the relationship. So there is a way that we intro. At first I demonstrate everything, so I make everything really clear. There is no mystery; it is not a test. I show her how to introduce herself. One way would be a stroke down the forehead, a stroke on the shoulder, or maybe sharing breath. She did introduce herself and she made that connection, so she had built a relationship.​

The next step that I have them do in relationship, it is always important, and especially with horses, to set a boundary. That is trust building for them because it lets them know that you can keep yourself safe with them. It is also demonstrating that horses respond to pressure and release.​

The way that we would do that, and I demonstrated for her, is I have the lead rope in my hands and, with clarity of direction and being congruent with what I am asking, I raise my energy. With horses you do as little as needed but as much as required. It took very little energy, extending my arms, asking my horse to take a step backwards. So I demonstrated that.​

Then I asked her, “Now, after you have made this connection, you are going to set a boundary.” She came in with a lot of force, a lot of energy. My horse jumped back, ears up, eyes wide, like, “You have got my attention.” Then I asked her, “What was that experience like for you?” I shared my observation.​

I shared what I had seen without judgment and what I was noticing about the horse, that the way she had asked was with a lot of force that really was not necessary. So I asked her, “Would you like to have an opportunity to do that again?” And I demonstrated once again for her. Then she stepped into that.​

Melba Holliday (25:39.780)

She realized, “I do not have to be that big, threatening, forceful person or leader to get a result.” It was at that moment, after she went through and asked him to move with less energy, that she started to feel emotional and tear up. She reflected, “Wow, that is how my people have experienced me.” More importantly, that was a reflection of her relationship with her daughter. That is what really touched her.​

In that moment, to have that experience and get it at a cellular level in her body, that made a huge difference for her and her relationships. Then, as it related to her work, how does she navigate that with influence rather than force?​

Aderonke Bademosi Wilson (26:57.634)

The experience that you provide, can anybody contact you? How can somebody get that kind of experience?​

Melba Holliday (27:10.095)

Yes, yes, they can contact me. I am actually a part of a network of other facilitators through an organization called TeachingHorse. TeachingHorse is actually global, so all over the country I have connection with colleagues and farms and horses, and I do travel.​

Aderonke Bademosi Wilson (27:35.714)

And so you said you travel. When you travel and provide this experience, is it always with your own horse or can you do it with other horses when you get to another location?​

Melba Holliday (27:48.602)

Yes, we do this with other horses. I do have relationships, and TeachingHorse does as well, with farms throughout the country. They know our work, the way that we work with horses in partnership. We listen to the horses and they understand the work that we are doing. So we will go into a farm and lease the farm for the day and work with their horses.​

Sometimes people will ask, “Well, this horse must be trained.” And I will say, “I just flew in yesterday and met these horses.” We always work with them beforehand to understand them and who would be best suited for the work that we are doing. Safety is the number one priority, always. But yes, we do go into other farms and lease and work with those horses.​

Aderonke Bademosi Wilson (28:52.654)

Hmm.​

Aderonke Bademosi Wilson (28:57.358)

What is the most exciting thing for you around this work?​

Melba Holliday (29:02.759)

Say the first part again. I did not hear you.​

Aderonke Bademosi Wilson (29:05.102)

What is the most exciting thing for you around this work?​

Melba Holliday (29:16.113)

When I am working with the horses and being outdoors and in connection, that is what is exciting. Being with the horse, being the interpreter of understanding, reading the horse and what is happening and what they have to teach us. With the session that I described to you with my woman client, I did not know what the horse was going to reveal that day. That is what is really exciting.​

Melba Holliday (29:53.255)

It is partnering with a sentient being. They have so much to offer us and teach us about ourselves.​

Aderonke Bademosi Wilson (30:05.922)

Melba, what were the key strengths and qualities you relied on to make a difference for this client of yours?​

Melba Holliday (30:18.024)

Years of training and skills as a coach. I think it also goes back to the listening and observing and just reflecting back what I saw without judgment, and holding the space to see my client always in their highest self.​

Aderonke Bademosi Wilson (30:55.406)

Thank you. Thank you so much.

Can you recall a situation where you overcame a challenge that led to personal growth? What did you learn from that experience?​

Melba Holliday (31:12.104)

In 2008, we had bought a new home. We were looking at the market and thought the housing market had bottomed out. Our business was doing well. When we bought this new home, we tripled our expenses. It was on a bigger piece of property, an older home that needed some work.​

Although I had a plan and I even had contractors lined up, rooms with wallpaper on them, several layers of wallpaper that needed painting, a lot of updating. Then, in March 2009, Lehman Brothers crashed, the financial market crashed. Because part of our business is in financial services, overnight we lost half our business.​

So we took ownership of the house in December and in March the market crashes. We were at a point where we did not know how we were going to cover our expenses now. Do we get out of this and start over again, or do we stay with this and pick and shovel our way out?​

What was also happening at that time was I was experiencing some health issues and they were undiagnosed. I was not sleeping. I had seen different doctors, but they were not diagnosing. They thought I wanted sleeping pills and that was not it. I knew something was not right, but I kept pushing myself.​

My daughters had been in a private Montessori school. Now they were going to public school with this change, and they were both struggling. One was in elementary school, the other was in middle school. So both daughters are struggling. We have gone under financially. My health got to the point where I could not, this is all related to hormonal stuff, peri-menopause, I could not get out of bed.​

Melba Holliday (33:38.504)

At one point I was in a grocery store and I called my husband and said, “I think I am going to pass out.” My body was shutting down, but my voice in my head was, “Do not be lazy. You have got to keep going. Keep pushing yourself.”​

I believe I had a nervous breakdown. There was one point where I was in bed, I could not get out of bed because there was depression. Cognitively I was not functioning right. My husband took me out into the front yard and said, “Look at the sun. The sun is shining. The sun is still shining. There is hope.”​

What I learned from that is I had to ask for help. I had always been self reliant and independent, that is really how I grew up, and asking for help was huge for me. Here is what happened when we did. Friends came. They physically were in my home helping me. My girlfriend pulling wallpaper down off the wall, her husband helping with electrical work. There were people that helped us with finances, understanding how to budget, manage our money at that time and restructure some things. My family, Edward’s family, they came and physically helped. There was so much help available to us. That was huge.​

The second thing I learned from that was listen to my body and I have got to take care of myself.​

The third thing was I may have a plan and a goal, because I do like to have plans in place, and God’s, universe, spirit’s timeline is different than mine. Over the last two years, we have finally been in a position that we have redone the downstairs, the upstairs.​

Melba Holliday (35:53.317)

It is more magnificent and beautiful and extraordinary than I could have imagined at that time. I am just loving, loving our home and where I am at.​

Aderonke Bademosi Wilson (36:07.854)

Melba, thank you. Thank you for sharing that story and your journey through depression and your focus on asking for help and then listening to your body. Do you have any other guidance that you would give to somebody who may be facing depression?​

Melba Holliday (36:33.800)

For me, it was finding the right doctor, and it was actually a naturopath. She was a nurse practitioner who dealt with women’s issues, and she did the right blood hormone testing, thyroid hormone testing. It was an autoimmune condition where my body was attacking itself. I think that is what is so important. I think there is more awareness around women’s health issues now than 17 or 18 years ago as well.​

Aderonke Bademosi Wilson (37:22.210)

You are listening to ABWilson’s Heart of the Matter podcast. Welcome back to ABWilson’s Heart of the Matter. My guest today is Melba Holliday. Melba, we have talked about you swimming with dolphins in the wild. You have talked about your work with horses and clients and bringing them together and what that experience could look like for a person who is open to being in that space. You have also talked about your journey through depression. What self-care practices or strategies help you to sustain your energy and motivation while navigating your journey?​

Melba Holliday (38:15.880)

Working out is really important to me, staying on a regular workout routine. A couple of years ago I joined a gym with a personal trainer that keeps me on track. The other thing that I do is spending time with my horse and riding. Sometimes at the end of the day, just going to the barn and grooming and being with him. Horses are healers. The energy that they bring can change someone’s parasympathetic system. They regulate with us in heart rate and breathing. That is the way that I take care of myself.​

Aderonke Bademosi Wilson (39:10.850)

How might sharing your experiences of success and growth create a positive ripple effect in your family, community, the world?​

Melba Holliday (39:24.636)

Family, for sure, my daughters. Demonstrating to them moving through uncertainty with courage, taking risks. I am so immensely proud of both of them. My older daughter, a couple of years ago, she has always been drawn to San Diego. She was born and grew up in Maryland, and she packed up her little Honda Civic and drove cross country and has started her life in San Diego where she loves to be. She is courageous, she cares about people, she is making a difference in people’s lives.​

My younger daughter, a year ago, joined the Peace Corps and she is in Nepal. She is living in a remote district, making a difference for people and teaching young students about environmental issues.​

Aderonke Bademosi Wilson (40:29.976)

Thank you. And what exciting opportunities do you see on the horizon? How do these opportunities align with your passions and aspirations?​

Melba Holliday (40:43.004)

Bringing the work and what we learn from the horses to corporate leaders. Horses together have navigated uncertainty for over 50 million years, and they do that together in a shared leadership model. They do it with the goal of the health, harmony, and unity of the entire herd. I think these things are so important in where we are at in our world right now. It can really make a difference for people.​

They have so much to teach us around shared leadership and the capabilities that horses have to demonstrate to be in those leadership roles.​

Aderonke Bademosi Wilson (41:36.888)

Can you tell me more about shared leadership? What does that look like?​

Melba Holliday (41:42.919)

In a herd of horses, they have a diamond formation. There is a leader in front, which typically is a mare, and the leader in front is setting direction. There is a leader in the back, which is often a stallion, and the stallion is there to keep the herd aligned. Within a large herd of horses, you may have separate smaller family bands. So there might be 60 to 80 horses, but they are there to keep all of those horses together and bring the right energy.​

Then there are leaders on the side. We call them sentinels. Their role is almost like a bouncer or an ambassador. If there is a threat, maybe a mountain lion, is a mountain lion thirsty and walking toward the water hole or is it a hungry mountain lion? If it is, the sentinels will flank the leader, redirect the herd in a safe direction. When they are in a safe area, they will go back to their positions.​

If it is a horse that is approaching the herd that would be helpful and additive to the herd, then they would welcome them into the herd. That is the role of the sentinel. In horse culture, leadership is not a rank, it is a role, and you go where you are needed when you are needed.​

Melba Holliday (43:25.734)

That is what we get to share with corporate leaders.​

Melba Holliday (43:33.404)

The leader does not always have to have all the answers.​

Melba Holliday (43:39.816)

And the leader is never a scapegoat.​

Aderonke Bademosi Wilson (43:52.802)

When you use horses and their leadership in corporate settings, how do people respond to that? How are they able to see themselves in either the diamond formation or in one of the roles that you have identified as the herd is moving?​

Melba Holliday (44:21.308)

We take them through exercises on the ground. We start with the capabilities. For a horse to be in those leadership positions, they do have to demonstrate four capabilities. One is attention, and that is noticing self, noticing the other, and noticing the environment. That is what horses do. If there is something on the horizon, they all notice.​

In horse culture, there is not a Chief Noticing Officer. Everybody is responsible for noticing. They take a pause of discernment and they make a decision and they choose a direction. So that is the second capability, being able to set a direction, have clarity of direction.​

The third thing is bringing the right energy. If a wild horse herd is out in California and there is smoke on the horizon, typically that is going to be a wildfire and they need to move quickly. In North Carolina, where I do a lot of my work, if there is smoke on the horizon, maybe it is someone burning a pile of trash or having a barbecue. In that case, they might move away, but it is not urgent, “We have got to get out of here quickly.” So it is about bringing the right energy for the situation, similar to the example that I shared with the client I was working with.​

The fourth capability is congruence, inner and outer expression aligned. Sometimes when I am working with someone with the horses, they may put on their big, brave, superhero Vice President cape and they are asked to do an experience with the horse, but inside they are feeling like, “Am I going to die here?” They are really afraid. That would be incongruent. If they begin to interact with the horse, the horse is not going to respond or react because they are thinking, “You do not know yourself. I cannot trust you.” But as soon as they express what they are feeling, the horse responds without judgment and then will come right to the person.​

Melba Holliday (46:47.568)

So that is congruence. We begin by having each individual participant step into those capabilities, demonstrate those capabilities with exercises with the horse one-on-one. Then, you asked about the shared leadership experience. We set up an obstacle course that, as a team, they take that formation. They step into those roles of the diamond model and they make the horse part of their team. Now, as a team, they get to align a shared direction, move together with the right amount of energy, be congruent. That is how they get to experience what it feels like to be in those different positions.​

Aderonke Bademosi Wilson (47:41.868)

Melba, I have got to tell you, I am fascinated by this horse culture. I had no idea, A, that horses can sense your energy and your emotion, that you can learn so much from horses, that they lived in formations or moved around in formations, that they have leadership roles. This is like opening a whole new world for me.​

Melba Holliday (48:05.945)

Hahaha.​

Aderonke Bademosi Wilson (48:07.562)

I had no idea. I am truly fascinated. And I was sitting here thinking to myself, I wonder how I can get to your farm.​

Melba Holliday (48:16.456)

Please, please come.​

Aderonke Bademosi Wilson (48:20.610)

Because I have never heard this. I have never heard of this. I have never heard of horse culture or how people are able to work in a way that they can learn from a horse. It is fascinating.​

Melba Holliday (48:21.958)

Or I will come to you. I am sure you have horses too.​

Melba Holliday (48:51.110)

Yeah, nature has so much to teach us.​

We, as human beings, could wipe ourselves off the planet. What horses do is they adapt to their environment.​

Melba Holliday (49:10.844)

They work with their environment.​

Melba Holliday (49:22.428)

Something else that horses do is they make decisions based on reality, not rules.​

Melba Holliday (49:31.260)

And they do not make anything up about what they see, like we as humans do.​

Aderonke Bademosi Wilson (49:53.442)

Thank you. Have there been any books written about horse culture and how they work together for the strength of the herd?​

Melba Holliday (50:10.088)

Yes, and I am recalling the title. For some reason, it is slipping my mind right now.​

Aderonke Bademosi Wilson (50:27.084)

It is okay, you can give it to me and I will make sure I put it on the website so people can learn about it, right? I can learn more. Yeah.​

Melba Holliday (50:35.440)

I definitely will. June Gunter is the founder of TeachingHorse, and June Gunter does have a book that she has written. But there are many books about horses and teaching horses based on observing wild horse herds.​

Melba Holliday (50:59.674)

Two years ago, I actually visited the wild horse herds in Lompoc, California. The organization is called Return to Freedom, which is an absolute godsend for saving horses that are rounded up and sent to slaughter, but she gives them the opportunity to live as the horses should.​

Aderonke Bademosi Wilson (51:28.622)

Hmm.​

Aderonke Bademosi Wilson (51:35.480)

Thank you.​

Melba Holliday (51:37.628)

Mm-hmm.​

Aderonke Bademosi Wilson (51:38.518)

Melba, what brings you joy?​

Melba Holliday (51:46.205)

Being with my family. Over the holidays, as an example, cooking amazing food, sharing food together, laughter, stories. Sarah, my older daughter, was able to be here over Christmas. Edward’s father and brother and sister in law. That brings me a lot of joy.​

Riding my horse, being just my horse and I out on a trail. And cooking in my stunningly beautiful new kitchen. I really enjoy cooking, music playing, family around, maybe a nice glass of wine.​

Aderonke Bademosi Wilson (52:34.018)

We are nearing the end of our conversation, this fascinating conversation. What book recommendation do you have? It could be a book that you have read recently or something that has stayed with you over the years.​

Melba Holliday (52:51.104)

A book that really made a difference for me, and this goes back to that time that I was really struggling when I was 18 or 19, was “The Little Prince.” A dear friend gave me that book. Are you familiar with it? It is a children’s fable, but it is about love and relationships and the importance of the unseen. That started a whole journey for me around self discovery and healing.​

Other books that really meant something to me at that time were Florence Scovel Shinn’s books, “Conscious Language” by Robert Tennyson Stevens, Judith’s book “Conversational Intelligence,” “Being Relational” is another one.​

Melba Holliday (53:45.860)

The current book that I am listening to is “Discipline Is Destiny” by Ryan Holiday.​

Aderonke Bademosi Wilson (54:11.233)

Any relation?​

Melba Holliday (54:14.286)

No, no relation.​

Aderonke Bademosi Wilson (54:15.903)

You…​

And Melba, do you have any final thoughts?​

Melba Holliday (54:29.874)

Final thoughts: be more horse like. We have so much to learn from the horses, especially as we move forward this year in navigating uncertainty. How might we come together with the goal of health, harmony, and unity of the herd, to see us all as one?​

Aderonke Bademosi Wilson (55:02.584)

Thank you for your time today, Melba. The appreciation nuggets that I am taking away I think are all horse related. Horses are healers. They help to regulate us. Horse culture leadership is not a rank, it is a role. You go where you are needed, when you are needed.​

And I think what you have said at the end, in terms of encouraging people to be more horse like, I never thought I would say something like that, but just listening and learning from your perspective on the important role that horses can play in our lives in terms of health, heart, and unity, I think is a valuable lesson. So that is the third appreciation nugget that I am taking away from today’s conversation.​

I appreciate you taking the time to join me on ABWilson’s Heart of the Matter, a podcast dedicated to asking overwhelmingly positive questions as we uncover incredible stories and wisdom of people you may know. Melba Holliday, thank you so much for being here today.​

Melba Holliday (56:20.828)

Thank you. I really enjoyed this time this morning.