Aderonke Bademosi Wilson (00:01.302)
Welcome to another edition of ABWilson's Heart of the Matter, a podcast that uses overwhelmingly positive questions to learn about our guests, where every episode uncovers extraordinary stories of triumph, growth, and empowerment. Hi, I'm Aderonke Bademosi Wilson, and my guest on today's show is Dr. Kelly Holder. Kelly is empathetic, joyful, curious.
Welcome to the show.
Kelly Holder (00:32.011)
Thank you. Thank you for having me.
Aderonke Bademosi Wilson (00:34.958)
And Kelly, the way I want to start is by you telling me about your descriptors. Why curious? What does curious look like to you?
Kelly Holder (00:43.971)
My goodness. Curious is, it's a skill that I've been developing over time. And for me, it's all about having a sense of wonder about the world around me, about the people I meet, about my own experiences, about my own emotions. This idea of curiosity aids me in navigating the world and staying open to new experiences and open to just experiencing the world, sometimes the same or differently than I have in the past. And it's been one of my greatest skills that I've developed and it's becoming part of who I am.
Aderonke Bademosi Wilson (01:31.394)
Hmm, and empathetic, what does that look like?
Kelly Holder (01:35.607)
Well, I spend most of my time listening to people. I work as a clinical psychologist and I'm finding that because I spend a lot of my time doing my work, it's become part of who I am that I always want to slow down enough when possible to really hear and try to see the world through someone else's eyes.
Aderonke Bademosi Wilson (02:07.444)
Hmm, and being joyful?
Kelly Holder (02:12.843)
Joy is one of the things I love to talk about so much. It's become one of my dearest values and it's also become a place where I rest. I like to rest in joy and think about the ways in which I can access joy, not only that, but the ways in which I can be held by joy through different experiences and. That mostly comes up in challenges when sometimes I feel like joy might be out of my reach knowing that there is some joy around to be experienced even if I can't access it in that moment. And just the thought of that makes me joy.
Aderonke Bademosi Wilson (02:54.72)
And you said being held by joy. Tell me about that. What does that feel like?
Kelly Holder (03:01.141)
Yeah, it's a soft feeling. It is a feeling that is, it often can feel really subtle and muted. For me, it takes some noticing. It's almost a gentle shift in perspective, knowing that, all right, maybe this moment might be hard, but if I do a gentle shift, I can find something good in the world or something I can be grateful for. And it could be things that if I were going through something else might bring me joy. And maybe in this moment, might not have the emotions of joy, but in this moment, I can notice that some of that goodness is still holding me. And so maybe I'm being held with joy, even though I'm not emotionally experiencing it.
Aderonke Bademosi Wilson (03:53.28)
Hmm. Thank you. Thank you for sharing that perspective on joy. And it sounds like it's accessible or can be accessible to most people.
Kelly Holder (04:04.875)
Mm-hmm, I think so. Yeah, I believe.
Aderonke Bademosi Wilson (04:06.732)
Hmm.
So please share three interesting things about yourself that our listeners may not know and friends will be surprised to learn.
Kelly Holder (04:20.383)
Well, okay. First, I'll start with this idea that I like exploring and trying new things. And so I recently started taking drum lessons and I've only played in my basement, but I think I'm getting good. I think I'm getting good. And it's been fun to do. Playing the drums is so cathartic in a way that I did not know it would be when I first started playing.
I would tell my drum teacher that my brain itched when I played because I was learning a skill that I'd never used before because when you play the drums, you have to be coordinated. But not only coordinated, you have to be able to feel the rhythm in different limbs and at different timings and some things that look really simple.
When you learn how to do it yourself, you can say, that sounds like a simple rhythm. But when you're doing it yourself, you're like, my goodness, especially as my drum teacher was adding more limbs. OK, you're going to use your right, your left, you're going to use your right foot right on the kick. Now we want you to use your left foot to open up that hi-hat. My brain would itch, right? I feel this itchy feeling. And it was a good sensation because I knew I was learning something new. But the other really neat thing I learned about playing the drums is before playing the drums, I could feel music, but playing the drums is like the music surges through your body as you're playing. And it's been quite amazing to have this new experience, an experience I hadn't had before. So I'm really enjoying that. So that's one thing people might not know about me. Another fact that few may know about me is that I really enjoy tea.
And so I try to try new teas and different kinds of teas. I happen to be married to someone who also likes tea a lot. And so that's, that's kind of made me lazy in that area because he's often buying teas. So it's, it's not hard for me to try new teas 'cause he's always bringing new teas home. So that's good. I keep a basket next to me that's full of different kinds of teas. 'Cause I try to start my day — once I get up, get to work, I try to have a cup of tea with me throughout the day.
Kelly Holder (06:38.935)
And for me, tea is all about the warmth, but it's also about the smells and the tastes and sensations. And so I try to take it all in from holding the warm cup in my hand. And as you can tell, I like warm tea, like hot tea. Smelling — I love just smelling the different teas. So really taking in the smell as I'm holding it, feeling that cup around my hands, feeling the warm sensation as the tea goes down my throat and surges in my body. It brings me a lot of joy and it's a nice calming moment. So that's another thing about me. So one more thing that folks might not know about me is that my undergrad degree is in biochemistry. I studied biochemistry in college and after college I got into a neuroscience PhD program. While I was in that program I worked in a lab that was doing FIV research, so the feline version of HIV and I worked in a — the lab was in a veterinary clinic, which was on the university campus. And so I got to do really all this really neat stuff with — there was a lion at a local zoo that had died from FIV, who they brought into the vet school to do a necropsy and take different pieces of the lion's anatomy so that we could do research on it.
And so it was really cool that I had this opportunity to touch a lion. Now, the lion wasn't alive, but I was in the room with the lion, the lion was on the table. And it was a short portion of my life. During that portion, I learned a lot of things about myself — what I really liked about research, what I didn't like about research, what I wanted to do with my life. And as I mentioned before, I work as a clinical psychologist. So I took a really big leap.
Kelly Holder (08:56.011)
From that work into doing something else. But that portion of my life was critical to some of the decisions that I made later. But it's also just really neat to tell this story of how I did research that allowed me to work in a vet school where I walked down the hallways and see, you know, horses and cows lying on tables — to have this experience of being in the same room and taking the liver of a lion to do research. So those are some interesting things about me. I think they're interesting enough to share.
Aderonke Bademosi Wilson (09:34.742)
Yeah, indeed they are. Thank you, thank you. I've never really thought about lions and doing research on them. So thank you.
Kelly Holder (09:46.391)
You're welcome.
Aderonke Bademosi Wilson (09:49.774)
Can you tell us about a recent accomplishment or success that you're particularly proud of?
Kelly Holder (09:56.447)
Yeah, so last night I had a recent success. Last night I launched my own podcast. The first full episode went live last night. The name of my podcast is Held with Joy, where we explore concepts of well-being and mental health, science, and we do that through the lens of joy, but also making space for faith to be able to be discussed in the same light and at the same table. And so last night, my podcast went live and I felt really proud of myself for trying something new, doing something different, launching something different. It's not often that we're in spaces where we talk about mental health and wellbeing and it's an open space where faith can be part of conversation too. And so...
I feel like it's a little different, so I'm excited about it and feel extremely proud that I did it. That we started. The start has begun. It has begun. So there we go.
Aderonke Bademosi Wilson (11:06.318)
Congratulations, congratulations. And how can people find you? What platforms are you on? What's your website?
Kelly Holder (11:09.163)
Thank you.
Kelly Holder (11:15.005)
Yeah, so I have a website. It's my name. It's kellydholder.com and I'm on Facebook, Instagram, and TikTok at the same handle at kellydholderphd. So that's how folks can find me if they wanna see what's going on.
Aderonke Bademosi Wilson (11:37.774)
And how often is your podcast? Is it weekly? Is it monthly? How often do you air?
Kelly Holder (11:44.799)
Yeah, the podcast is weekly. So it comes out on Wednesdays. On Wednesdays. Yeah. So.
Aderonke Bademosi Wilson (11:47.138)
Okay.
Aderonke Bademosi Wilson (11:53.422)
I'm looking forward to listening to it.
Please tell us about a time when you made a difference in another's life. What were the circumstances? Paint a picture for me.
Kelly Holder (12:05.751)
Oh, oh — so what I want to share is that.
Kelly Holder (12:16.873)
I get to do really meaningful work every day. So as a psychologist, I work in cancer care. So I do psych — it's called psycho-oncology or psychosocial oncology. And so when you ask that question, the first thing that came to mind were some of the people that I've had the opportunity to sit with and support with various stressors in their life in conjunction with their diagnosis and treatment with cancer. Now, of course, they're my patients, so I can't really share details in particular, but it is incredibly humbling to show up at a job where there's so much need that could happen, you know, and we can say that across lots of people or need in an individual person, but it is incredibly humbling to be able to have the opportunity to support individuals during challenging times in their life. Just the idea that someone would be willing to allow a [me] to be part of a challenge that they're experiencing is — I feel extremely grateful that I get to do this work and that the tools and things that I've learned over my career allow me to be helpful to people. And so it brings me a lot of joy just thinking that there's this possibility that I get to be helpful to folks on a regular basis. And every day when I end my day, I feel extremely grateful that I get to do this work. It's an amazing privilege.
Aderonke Bademosi Wilson (14:28.952)
Thank you, Kelly. What would you say were the key strengths and qualities you relied on to make a difference?
Kelly Holder (14:38.411)
Yeah, I think the key qualities have a lot to do with the way I introduce myself. Being able to be empathetic, being able to be compassionate, not just to others, but to myself. I think the ways in which I've learned how to care for myself and give myself compassion allows me to extend it to other individuals. This idea of curiosity. Being able to be open to what someone else's experiences are, how they're experiencing the world, what they're experiencing is a big tool in being able to figure out the kind of help that people need. We can't bring our own agenda to the table, so we have to stay curious so that we can figure out what their agenda is and how to support a person.
So yeah, and joy because I like to carry joy with me. It's one of my sustaining and strengthening portions and not in a toxic positivity way, in a way that allows me to experience gratitude and hope and courage in the face of hard things.
Aderonke Bademosi Wilson (16:05.294)
Thank you for sharing. Can you recall a situation where you overcame a challenge that led to personal growth? What did you learn from that experience?
Kelly Holder (16:06.838)
Yeah.
Kelly Holder (16:18.333)
Yeah, I've had a lot of challenges. The one I will share in this moment has to do with me completing graduate school, which at this point was many years — more years than I probably, I don't know, I guess more than 20 years ago. I got my degree, my PhD in 2005.
Working towards that degree was really challenging and very difficult. During that time period I learned a lot about myself. I experienced my own mental health challenges all the while trying to learn how to support other folks who are having mental health challenges. And I think one of the biggest things that helped me get through that time period was having flexibility enough to grow and being able to incorporate new skills into my life. It was during that season that I learned how much exercise is important to me, how it sustains my mental health and helps me push through hard times. It was during that season that I learned how to speak up for myself. I mean, it took — I still continue to grow through that — but self-advocacy and being able to say, hey, this is what I need and asking folks who could help me — being able to say, "This is what I need. Can you help me with this?" And being able to receive that help, but also being willing to seek it out from somebody else if the first person I ask isn't the one who's able to help me. I learned how to work on teams, how to negotiate within a team, how to help a team work together to solve a problem. So there are so many skills that I learned through that challenge that have propelled me into my career and skills I rely upon regularly. I've used regularly since that season.
Aderonke Bademosi Wilson (18:28.686)
Do you feel that the lessons that you learned as you were going through your program has helped you professionally as you support people in their mental health?
Kelly Holder (18:44.561)
Yeah, yeah, for sure, for sure, for sure. Because in addition to the personal lessons that I was learning, I learned a whole lot of tools and practical tools that aided me in just being able to have the skills, the skill set necessary to do this work. And there's no way I would be able to do this work without that skill set.
But I also believe there's no way I would be able to do this work if I did not learn the personal lessons because, you know, I bring myself to the work as well. And so the personal lessons helped me sustain the practical tools that I learned through my education as well. So I think both were significantly important. Of course, I wouldn't be able to do this job at all if I didn't learn the practical skills and didn't do all that stuff.
Aderonke Bademosi Wilson (19:35.544)
Yes.
Aderonke Bademosi Wilson (19:41.996)
You are listening to ABWilson's Heart of the Matter podcast.
Welcome back to ABWilson's Heart of the Matter. My guest today is Dr. Kelly Holder. Kelly, so far we've been able to talk about the work that you do and how what you learned while you were doing your PhD has helped you to become that much better with your work and the tools that you've learned along the way. You've touched on how you work with and support people who are facing cancer journeys. And you've also talked with joy and excitement about the drum lessons that you're taking and the podcast that you've just launched. What self-care practices and strategies help you to sustain your journey and motivation while navigating? Sorry, I'll start over again. What self-care practices or strategies help you to sustain your energy and motivation while navigating your journey.
Kelly Holder (20:53.737)
My goodness. That's such a great question. I have — there are so many self-care tools that I use and probably too many for us to finish this time together. What I want to start with is that what's been really important for me is knowing that self-care serves as a buffer. Self-care is not going to allow me to escape my humanity. My humanity is going to happen.
And so I think one of the greatest skills is adding a level of good perception to my environment and to what's happening. So I know I need to start my morning slow and eat well, and I need to exercise. All of those things are essential to me sustaining my life and keeping my energy. I know I need a connection with others and to be able to have the opportunity to learn new things and do things that are fun and enjoyable, adding play into my life. I know that I also need an opportunity to see myself in perspective to the rest of the world. So being able to have this sense of awe for God, the universe, how much bigger the world is beyond myself — it holds me in perspective and helps me keep my problems and things in perspective. So practicing these things is really helpful. But the layer on top of it is recognizing that as I practice these tools, having a sense of gratitude for who I am and where I've landed, but also a healthy perspective of my own life, I think makes a huge difference because sometimes we can — well, I always speak for myself. Sometimes I fall into this category or trap and I've heard it from other people. Like I'm doing all these things. I'm doing all the right things. How come I don't feel better? And sometimes that means we need to be curious enough to make some shifts. And sometimes it's because
Kelly Holder (23:20.895)
our perception is a little bit off about the season that we're in and what's happening. And it's hard to kind of accept what a season might need to look like just because of where you are. And so being able to have that healthy perspective makes all of the self-care practices much better because I can put them into context and I can make sense and make good meaning out of my life no matter what season or stage or experience that I'm going through.
Aderonke Bademosi Wilson (23:57.494)
Hmm. Thank you for sharing that. How might sharing your experiences of success and growth create a positive ripple effect in your family, community, the world?
Kelly Holder (24:12.321)
Yeah, I mean, my life matters just like your life matters. And so as I share the things that I've been able to accomplish, as I talk about them with my children and my spouse or with different family members, maybe with friends, there's this opportunity for them to see how it could be possible for them. And maybe they're not wanting the same things I'm wanting, but whatever their heart's desires are, their goals are — hearing about mine provides a mirror in the fact that, well, she was able to get where she wanted to go. There's this opportunity, maybe I can get where I want to go, or maybe I can experience joy right where I am while I'm waiting to get to where I want to go. And that's the one thing that I would love.
I mean, if I could pass anything on to my children, I would want it to be that — is that there is joy to be found here right now. It doesn't have to be when I get to whatever success is or whatever that goal is. Success could be right now because I'm here right now and I'm grateful right now. So.
Aderonke Bademosi Wilson (25:32.696)
What exciting opportunities do you see on the horizon and how do these opportunities align with your passions and aspirations?
Kelly Holder (25:41.463)
Oh my goodness, there are so many, many things I see on the horizon for myself. I am in the middle of doing some serious planning about some new offerings that I want to share with others around joy and developing joy. Again, I talk about mental health and wellbeing through the lens of joy. And so I really see an opportunity to grow in helping individuals recognize ways they can enhance their self-care and improve the ways in which they care for their mental health, using joy as a vehicle to get there. We spend a lot of time talking about burnout and overwhelm, moral distress, compassion fatigue, caregiver fatigue. And while there's place and time for all of those conversations, I am really looking forward to having more conversations where we're looking towards what we want more of and what we already possess and how to grow what we already possess. Because again, if we make a lot of space for joy, the other things are going to still be there, but there's going to be less room for them.
Aderonke Bademosi Wilson (27:12.11)
Do you see joy and gratitude walking hand in hand?
Kelly Holder (27:15.904)
My goodness, I think gratitude fuels joy for sure.
Aderonke Bademosi Wilson (27:21.934)
Tell me more.
Kelly Holder (27:23.391)
Yeah, it is hard to not have a joyful experience when you are recounting the good or looking for things that you can say thank you for in your life and in your world. I really believe that when we see the good, it fuels or helps cultivate joy in our own hearts and in our lives.
Aderonke Bademosi Wilson (27:56.344)
Thank you.
Aderonke Bademosi Wilson (28:00.14)
What brings you joy?
Kelly Holder (28:02.219)
What brings, okay. There are so many things that bring me joy. In this moment, as we're talking, I think the thing I would love to point out is that the notion that joy is available to me is like the biggest factor. I mean, of course, when I was growing up, they say define the word, you can't use the word to define the word, right? That's what we're taught to say. And in this moment, I'm breaking that rule because what I'm saying is the biggest thing that brings me joy is knowing that joy is available, that I can cultivate it. There are tools that are possible to cultivate joy and find joy. No matter what season I'm in, and even if it's really difficult, I have, like I shared at the beginning, this notion that I can at least acknowledge that there are some things holding me with joy, even if I'm not able to reach it myself.
Aderonke Bademosi Wilson (29:22.264)
Thank you.
What book recommendations do you have? It can be a book that you've read recently or something that has stayed with you over the years.
Kelly Holder (29:33.695)
Okay, I'm gonna make two book recommendations. One is a book I'm not finished reading yet. And it's a nonfiction book. The book is titled Slowing Down to the Speed of Joy. It has been so good so far. I haven't finished it yet. But I think that it'll be a solid, solid book recommendation when I'm done with it. But because I'm in the middle of reading it, I wanted to share that as a book recommendation.
The other book I want to recommend, and it is a fictional book. It is a book by, my goodness, Fredrik Backman, and the book is titled My Friend.
I love books that use friendship as the arc in the story. And this book, these friends and the way that this story is told, has so many elements. It's intergenerational because there's a young person in the story. There's older people in the story. There's some death in the story, but then there's some life in the story. I did a lot of crying and listening and hoping. And I mean, the story isn't about perfect friendship, but it really is about how friendships navigated through challenging and very different situations through the lens of multiple of the friends in the book. I enjoyed reading it so very much.
Aderonke Bademosi Wilson (31:13.016)
Kelly, thank you for your book recommendations and I will definitely have a look out for them. So we've come to the end of our time together and you have really, I think, turned a spotlight on joy, why it's important, what it means to you. Is there anything else? Do you have any final thoughts?
Kelly Holder (31:39.063)
I think my final thought would be is for anyone who might be listening that you are not excluded from the experience of joy, that you are included and it is possible no matter what your experiences have been, that joy is available to you and it might not look the way you imagined it, that it would look, but it's there and I hope with all hopes that you take the opportunity to get curious enough to figure out how joy is accessible to you, that you'll do that. It'll be worth every effort.
Aderonke Bademosi Wilson (32:22.446)
Thank you. Thank you, Kelly. Some of the appreciation nuggets that I'm taking away with me — what you just said, joy is available to you. And I get the sense that that means anybody, anybody, no matter where they are, what they're facing — not in the purest sense, joy is available to you. You've also said that you like to carry joy with you. And another thought that I'm taking away is just your whole being around joy and how you've been able to integrate it into so many aspects of your life that it has become a part of you. That's the other appreciation nugget that I'm taking away — and that you're passing it on, right? That this is how you walk in the world. You want others to walk with you and carry joy with them and share it.
Kelly Holder (33:24.503)
That is the hope.
Aderonke Bademosi Wilson (33:34.798)
I think that's one of the great things, right? You get to share joy. It's not a selfish endeavor. It's very much almost a selfless endeavor, being able to give it, share it, embrace it, talk about it, chew on it, and then do it over again.
Kelly Holder (33:35.063)
Yeah.
Kelly Holder (33:45.623)
Thank you.
Kelly Holder (33:54.101)
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Aderonke Bademosi Wilson (33:57.336)
Kelly, thank you so much for your time today. I appreciate you joining me on ABWilson's Heart of the Matter, a podcast dedicated to asking overwhelmingly positive questions as we uncover incredible stories of wisdom of people you may know. Dr. Kelly Holder, thank you so much for your time.
Kelly Holder (33:59.927)
You're so welcome. Very welcome.
Kelly Holder (34:20.907)
You're welcome. Very welcome. Thanks for having me.
