S3 Ep20. Making Space for Joy in Justice with Dina Chaerani

This week’s guest on ABWilson's Heart of the Matter podcast is Dina Chaerani, a bold and joyful sexuality educator, storyteller and youth advocate from Indonesia whose work lives at the intersection of advocacy, digital media and care. 

Dina shares how her own lived experience shaped her commitment to helping young people understand consent, boundaries, pleasure and safety in ways that feel accessible, honest, and human.

Dina Chaerani brings a rare combination of honesty, warmth and courage to this conversation. As a sexuality educator and youth advocate, she shares how her work began with her own experience of sexual violence at age 13 and grew into a lifelong commitment to making accurate, accessible sexual and reproductive health information available to young people. 

She speaks candidly about the gaps in education, the taboos that still shape conversations about bodies and consent and why she built platforms like Sex Dugram and her SRHR Barbie persona to reach young audiences where they already are.

Throughout the episode, Dina reflects on the emotional labor of public advocacy and the costs of being visible in online spaces, including harassment and doxing. Still, she remains grounded in empathy, persistence and a strong sense of purpose. 

She describes self-care as something joyful and active, from dancing and Zumba to humor, music, walking and leaning on a supportive inner circle. Her story is  deeply personal and widely resonant, reminding us that resilience is powerful, but so is care and that young people deserve truth, dignity and the freedom to ask questions without shame.

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Transcript

Aderonke Bademosi Wilson (00:01.618)

Welcome to another edition of ABWilson's Heart of the Matter, a podcast that uses overwhelmingly positive questions to learn about our guests, where every episode uncovers extraordinary stories of triumph, growth, and empowerment. Hi, I'm Aderonke Bademosi Wilson and my guest on today's show is Dina Chaerani. Dina is unapologetic, bold, and, as you heard during the introduction, bubbly and funny. Dina, welcome to the show.

Dina Chaerani (00:44.855)

My pleasure. Oh my god. I feel like I've been invited by Oprah. Oh god.

Aderonke Bademosi Wilson (00:53.358)

Dina, I couldn't even get through the introduction without laughing. And the antics -- because this is audio -- and the antics you were doing on screen as I was reading. So Dina, let's start with your descriptors. I want to start with being bold. Tell me about being bold.

Dina Chaerani (00:54.64)

Oh my god.

Dina Chaerani (01:11.637)

Yes. Being bold? Okay. Well, it's interesting because -- oops, sorry. Okay. Ha, busy. Somebody called me. No, but like being bold. So it's very interesting because I feel like I'm staying true to myself and I'm not afraid to actually say whatever I want to say. And what is staying true to myself? For example, I don't know whether you know that I'm actually a Muslim and I come from a conservative Muslim family in Indonesia. And then my career trajectory, or whatever I'm doing currently, is that I'm teaching sexuality education for children and also young people all over digital platforms. So I feel like that's a bold move because it's going to go one of two ways. It's either I'm going to be successful, or the government will decide to... I mean, so I feel like I care, because I feel like this is something that a lot of young people need and ensuring that the information is equitable and accessible for a lot of people. So I'm doing it because I want to heal myself -- my younger self from back then. That's the bold.

Aderonke Bademosi Wilson (02:28.649)

And being unapologetic.

Dina Chaerani (02:31.911)

Yes, being unapologetic is that I am also shaping my own career, but also my own persona on social media. It's called SRHR Barbie. For listeners who do not know what SRHR is -- I know it's a mouthful -- it's sexual and reproductive health and rights. The abbreviation is SRHR. And I'm using the Barbie persona because I want to demystify the definition of Barbie. So many people think Barbie is supposed to be white, tall, blonde, slim. Like, no, Barbie is me as well. I'm brown, I'm short, I'm curvy, and I'm loud, and I'm talking about a lot of crazy stuff, but also important stuff, and I make sure that it is accessible and fun so that a lot of people can understand and it's not an exclusive thing.

Aderonke Bademosi Wilson (03:34.126)

How did you get into this? What moved you in this direction?

Dina Chaerani (03:39.409)

That's a good question because I started this work sort of when I was 13 years old. I am now almost 30. So it has been 17 years. The first time I decided to join this, it was actually not planned, but because I experienced sexual violence when I was 13. And I experienced firsthand how messed up the system in my country was when reporting sexual violence against children, because I reported to my teacher and my teacher asked stupid questions, as you know, like, who did that? And then, of course, sometimes I didn't remember who did that because I froze during that time. Or, what did you wear? What time was it happening? And I literally said it happened at school. So I was wearing a uniform. It wasn't my fault. And then when he asked who did that and I said I didn't remember, the statement was then, "You enjoyed the incident." So I felt like, shoot -- even the teacher that I thought could protect me was still victim-blaming me. And back then, of course, it was out of the question that I could say anything to my mom or my dad because otherwise they would also victim-blame me. Nobody could trust me or protect me. So I know how hard it is. And that's why I was closed up, and then I covered my whole body. I'm wearing two layers of jacket to go to school so nobody noticed my body and everything. So I was trying to get away from that community and everything, until I entered senior high school and I met an international non-governmental organization that focuses on child protection. It's called Plan International -- Plan International Indonesia. And that's when I first learned about the Convention on the Rights of the Child, the CRC, that apparently every child in the world has 31 rights to be fulfilled by the government and also the parents and the community. One of them is the right to feel safe.

Dina Chaerani (05:51.039)

And I was like, I wasn't feeling safe. So the government and my country and my parents and my teacher failed me through this system. And that's why I was like, okay, I don't want another child, another young person or girl to feel the same. It was a creepy feeling because you don't feel like you are worth enough, you know? So that's why I dedicated myself and sort of declared: I'm not going to stop advocating on these issues until there are no more cases of sexual violence against children in my country. So that's how I started this journey -- because of an accident, unfortunately. But yeah.

Aderonke Bademosi Wilson (06:33.23)

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for sharing your story. I appreciate you sharing it with me. And the third descriptor, bubbly.

Dina Chaerani (06:46.527)

Yes, because I like to see myself as a storyteller. And I feel like to be a storyteller, I mean, you can be a good, serious storyteller, but I don't think it fits my personality. And I just love making jokes. I love making fun of things. I love that all the heavy, taboo stuff that I'm actually talking about is understandable and relatable for so many people. I don't want to be like the politician, you know, just talking in jargon. So being bubbly, I feel like it's a good entry point to have a connection with people. I mean, there are so many ways -- for example, food and cooking can also create discussion and community. You know, it's just easier to talk with people when they're sharing food or cooking. And for me, being bubbly is one of them. Like, just giving a compliment to people, just being myself. Fortunately, I am naturally bubbly. So it's easy for me to just say, hey, how are you? And then just connect with people. So I use that power.

Aderonke Bademosi Wilson (07:59.704)

Dina, please share three interesting things about yourself that our listeners may not know and your friends will be surprised to learn.

Dina Chaerani (08:12.619)

First, I think I've already said a couple of things, but first: I'm from Indonesia. A lot of my work comes from growing up in a place where conversations about bodies, about pleasure, about consent, sexuality, and violence were often treated as taboo -- as something normal, that it was not to be discussed. That shaped me a lot, and it made me want to create a safe space for more people, especially young people and girls, to speak honestly and feel like it's not a shame, it's not your fault. We have to turn the table. That's the first one.

Second, let me think. I move between very different worlds quite naturally. Like, one day I can be in the policy space with global institutions. And the next day I'm creating digital content, dancing, playing piano, doing music, or reggaeton that can actually explain those same issues in a way young people can actually relate to. So like an amphibian, I don't know -- changing perspective quite easily.

And third, as I already mentioned, I am a storyteller at heart. I love storytelling and I've built a platform. It's called Sex Dugram -- an abbreviation of comprehensive sexuality education -- on Instagram. I'll explain later why I created that. And also Laporyuk -- in Bahasa Indonesia, it means "just report." Because I've never wanted advocacy to stay stuck in reports, conference rooms, or plenary rooms. I've always believed information should actually reach people where they are -- in their phones, in their local languages, and in a way that actually feels human.

So comprehensive sexuality education -- it's a mouthful, I'm sorry if I'm bringing a lot of terminology -- but basically, if you're hearing "sexuality education," maybe you think about penetration or teaching kids to have sex before marriage. It is not that.

Dina Chaerani (10:31.433)

Sexuality education is about teaching young people about pleasure, about respecting the body, about boundaries, about knowing what to do and where to report it if something happens -- and about access to education. And the thing is, in Indonesia, we are not allowed to learn about this at school. And your parents do not want to talk about this at home. I remember when I was a kid, I asked how I was conceived, and my mom told me, "We found you in a flower and then you were growing." Now imagine there are so many other children in Indonesia asking these questions and parents are not capable enough to explain this -- it's science, right? But they think it's so taboo that they can't let the kids ask at school either. And the teacher can't explain it either, because I remember in biology class, we were separated between men and women. So the guys didn't need to see the female anatomy, and the women didn't need to see the male anatomy. It was considered shameful.

So that's why I bring this kind of information -- not in a book, because I feel like not a lot of young people would want to read. So I made it into two-minute content creation videos on Instagram Reels through dancing. I love dancing, so I thought, let me dance -- and then I put some information in while I'm dancing. So it attracts people to actually watch and then pause a little bit and think, oh, that's interesting information. And usually in my caption, I put a link if they want to read more about the data. So that's how I engage more young people and make it accessible for them.

Aderonke Bademosi Wilson (12:32.15)

Thank you.

Dina Chaerani (12:34.4)

Yes!

Aderonke Bademosi Wilson (12:35.872)

Okay. So Dina, how do people react to your work? How is it received?

Dina Chaerani (12:46.295)

Two different reactions. The first are the people that are open-minded, just like you. I mean, comparing you, for example, to my grandma -- I don't have a grandma anymore, they've all passed away -- or like my mom. There is no way I can talk about this topic to my mom, because she will be like, "Oh my god, you are going to go to hell. God is angry at you, Allah is mad at you. And then you are actually preventing your dad" -- because my dad passed away already -- "from going to heaven, because he is at the moment in purgatory and because of you he cannot get in." So, all the blaming: you are a shame to the religion, you are a shame to Islam. That's the reaction.

That's the first type of person. And usually -- I don't want to say they are all Muslim -- but mostly they are Muslim, because in Indonesia, 98% of the population is Muslim, including my mom, and quite conservative. And then seeing somebody who declares themselves a Muslim woman and talks about sexuality education without hijab is already a wrong persona to them.

The second reaction is from people who are super supportive, genuinely curious, and supporting all my content and saying, "You are bridging policy and also bridging hard content to be something more relatable for young people." And I say, exactly. And I love that because they genuinely want to work more with me. But I mean, in between the two, I feel like since I've been doing this for a long time, I get used to it. I'm just focusing on the positive side.

Aderonke Bademosi Wilson (14:41.962)

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for sharing that. Thank you for the work that you do, because it is important. I believe it makes a difference for young people to learn the truth about sex.

Dina Chaerani (14:51.735)

Yeah.

Dina Chaerani (15:00.573)

Exactly. Because it's not only that sex is penetration and then you're pregnant and then you deliver a baby. It's way more complex than that. Like sometimes even when they are already married, they do not realize that they have rights to say no to their partner if they don't feel like it. But in our conservative community, it's like, no, as a woman, you have to bow down, listen to your partner, listen to your king, because your role is to clean the house, procreate, and do nothing else. And I'll be like, that's so back in -- I don't know -- 1800 or 1900-something. It's so weird. So yeah.

Aderonke Bademosi Wilson (15:48.226)

Dina, can you tell us about a recent accomplishment or success that you're particularly proud of?

Dina Chaerani (15:55.791)

Ooh, I mean, I could say there are so many. I mean, I've been invited a lot to UN spaces to speak about youth issues and everything. But genuinely, I don't think those count as achievements to me anymore, because I've done that quite a lot of times. But I feel like something that really accomplished something for me is actually securing funding from an institution called Grand Challenges Canada. It's not a lot -- it's $250,000 Canadian for my own organization, Sacstogram -- so that we can implement the project in Indonesia for the next two years. And it's about mental health issues for queer youth in faith-based schools. So in Catholic-based schools, in Christian-based schools, there are a lot of young people who cannot come out as queer and they're actually tortured and bullied at school, even by the teacher. So securing this kind of program, and knowing I can open up an opportunity for other young people to work under me -- together with me -- working towards something really meaningful and accessible, I'm so happy. I feel like that's one of my recent accomplishments, because I know I'm going to do something great with this for my country.

Aderonke Bademosi Wilson (17:30.016)

And have you started the work?

Dina Chaerani (17:33.301)

Yes, we kicked it off yesterday!

Aderonke Bademosi Wilson (17:35.63)

Congratulations. Tell me about it. Tell me about your start.

Dina Chaerani (17:39.697)

So it was quite hectic, because again, my organization is a youth-led organization. And you know that the issue around funding for young people is so hard, because all these institutions think, "We don't trust young people. We don't trust that they can manage a certain amount of money." They really want to work with us in a tokenistic way, like, take a picture -- "There are youth representing." But I always say, whenever I have a chance to deliver a statement: "You can't only say you trust us -- you literally need to fund us." I always say, "Fund us like you want us to win. If you really want to see us be successful, give us the money. Show us where it is." Not just, "Yes, we have money," and then give it to the biggest organization. No.

So it's hard, and everywhere there's a big institution, you have to have very complicated documentation, like administration stuff. Your organization has to have been registered five years ago with a certain income and revenue, blah, blah, blah. I was like, this doesn't make sense. How do you expect this from a youth organization that was just established? You're comparing this to an organization that's already been running forever. And then I try to advocate for that.

Initially they said I had to submit certain documents, and I said, "No, that's not possible." If I won this challenge, I won this grant, you just have to believe in me. But we submitted all the data that was required and now I'm really kicking it off by sending some MOUs to the faith-based schools. That's another problem, because I have to ensure them that this is about mental health and we are targeting queer youth in the faith-based school. God forbid, I don't know how it's going to happen, but I think let's see. We shall see about that, but it will be interesting, I'm pretty sure. I mean, mental health is an emerging issue now. Everybody's talking about mental health. And I feel like it's going to be interesting. But my challenge will be bridging queer students, queer youth --

Dina Chaerani (20:01.203)

-- in the faith-based school, because religion doesn't believe in queerness. That's the interesting part. I have to break through. Let's see.

Aderonke Bademosi Wilson (20:06.655)

Hmm.

Aderonke Bademosi Wilson (20:12.462)

Good luck on your work.

Dina Chaerani (20:13.783)

Yeah. I'm not going to go bald after this, because it's stressful, but yeah. So yeah.

Aderonke Bademosi Wilson (20:24.002)

Please tell us about a time when you made a difference in another person's life. What were the circumstances? Paint a picture for me.

Dina Chaerani (20:32.213)

Ooh, let me think. So, it's super personal actually. You remember when I created this Sex Dugram account for social media? I receive almost every day messages from young people through my account -- my personal account and also Sex Dugram -- especially around sexuality education, consent, or sexual violence. And sometimes, there is one particular person who said, "I thought it was normal that my uncle did this to me, and I didn't know that I should say something or report this or open up about this to my family." And I could tell through everything she shared that she had actually been assaulted for more than five years and it had become normal because she thought it was just something that happens and shouldn't be reported. And the moment I learned about that, I accompanied her to do the report. I have my team in Indonesia, but because the message came through my own personal account, I referred it to my team. And then we worked through everything. We went through the reporting mechanism. And then everything changed, because the uncle was served -- he went to jail. It wasn't that long a sentence, but it was successful enough to get them separated. And then she got treatment from social services and also care from the hospital. And now she's doing well, fortunately.

I felt like, damn, I'm doing something good. Because back then I couldn't talk about what happened to me to my peers or anyone else, because I was afraid they would say bad things about me or bad-mouth me to other people. So I feel like becoming a big sister on the internet who makes people feel safe enough to share these personal and private issues -- and literally helping them seek justice -- yeah. I think that's the thing I'm still most proud of until now. Making a difference in a person's life. So yeah.

Aderonke Bademosi Wilson (22:51.086)

It's valuable work, and you are saving a lot of people.

Dina Chaerani (22:54.219)

I have goosebumps.

Dina Chaerani (23:00.927)

Yeah.

Dina Chaerani (23:06.668)

Yeah.

Aderonke Bademosi Wilson (23:11.234)

What were the key strengths and qualities you relied on to make a difference for this young person, for this young lady?

Dina Chaerani (23:19.255)

I would say empathy, courage, and persistence. Empathy is the big one, because the work I do is so rooted in people's real lives and real pain, real complexity. But empathy alone actually isn't enough. I've also needed courage -- especially to speak about these issues myself, to be the front-facing person, to raise issues that make people uncomfortable. Like recently I got doxed -- the digital violence. I think you remember that when I told you in Costa Rica, people were talking about me. I went viral on Threads with more than 35,000 people talking about me when I didn't even have an account on Threads. So I'll be like, that takes courage -- to be the front-facing person of the organization. It actually shows that my work is quietly impactful and makes other people uncomfortable.

And I think it's also a strength, to be that kind of person, and also to be a translator. It's really important because I can translate something across languages but also across different worlds. And I feel that's something super powerful that --

Aderonke Bademosi Wilson (24:24.024)

Mm-hmm.

Dina Chaerani (24:46.685)

-- I am privileged enough to access: understanding certain policies, access to high-level leaders, and then translating the decision-making process and its results into realities and into language that young people or even adults can understand and feel. Then it becomes powerful for them and they know that it can happen to them as well, not only to certain people.

And lastly, persistence, honestly, because it has carried me through a lot. If I wasn't persistent, I probably wouldn't be where I am now. I don't want to say I'm successful yet, but at least I am somewhere. And I know that I was only dreaming about creating something, but I've made it happen now. And it is honestly exhausting work. Change is often super slow. I've been working in this field for 17 years, and let me tell you, with the global gag rule and everything, things are not moving forward -- they're moving backward. And I feel like keep going even when progress is not immediate. It needs persistence. So those are three things.

Aderonke Bademosi Wilson (26:02.487)

Hmm.

Aderonke Bademosi Wilson (26:06.038)

You mentioned doxing. Tell me what that is.

Dina Chaerani (26:10.039)

So doxing -- let me say that in an easier way. It's like revealing personal data or spreading misinformation and disinformation about a person online. So it's like bullying, but online, which is worse. Because everybody who doesn't understand the context gets mad as well, because of the narrative that somebody created on the internet. Like, it's false information. For example, someone might say, "Yeah, she's losing weight because of Ozempic." Meanwhile, she's always been promoting a healthy lifestyle, working out and everything. And then if people do not know the truth, they're like, "Yeah, she's the fat person," blah blah blah -- that kind of doxing. And then they start revealing, "Yeah, I know that she's going to this doctor and taking this Ozempic." So that type of thing gets revealed. And for my case, they also revealed where I went to senior high school, where my mom lives. So it was scary.

I fortunately wasn't living in Indonesia at the time, so I was relatively safe and they couldn't really attack me. But what made me really afraid was that they could attack my family. My family probably doesn't know what I'm doing on a daily basis or what content I'm putting out, because my mom doesn't have social media. But it is scary, you know, having this data revealed. Thankfully now it's resolved. They've taken down all the content. They already issued a press release about me saying sorry for doing the doxing. I was like, why did you do that in the first place? But it was simply because I create content about sexual education.

Dina Chaerani (28:16.087)

So yeah.

Dina Chaerani (28:19.842)

Hehehehehe.

Aderonke Bademosi Wilson (28:21.966)

Can you, Dina, share or recall a situation where you overcame a challenge that led to personal growth? What did you learn from that experience?

Dina Chaerani (28:33.259)

Yeah, I think I could say that recently the online harassment, or the doxing itself, the digital violence while doing public-facing advocacy. The thing is, my work is also very tied to public-facing advocacy, which means I have to create content. I have agreements with a lot of other organizations, but I had to sort of pause first, because otherwise all the content I would put out would be filled with nasty comments and everything. And genuinely, I think it's because I speak about gender norms, about sexuality, power, and rights for young women, and people can respond very aggressively. There were moments where I felt super exposed, unsafe, and deeply tired. But that experience actually taught me a lot.

It taught me that being visible is not the same as being invincible. It taught me that boundaries are also super important and they are not weakness. I could have just thought, no, go ahead, and I would go viral -- people will follow me -- because it was a moment where I could gain followers if I stayed online. But I didn't do that, because I feel like I don't need to be harsh on myself. Safety comes first. And the rest is not something I have to earn after collapsing. So I took it as a time for a reset -- like a digital detox -- and I didn't need to use my own phone every day for those two weeks. And that was actually super good -- not thinking about everything online and just being present.

And I think most importantly, it also taught me that I don't need to make myself smaller just because other people are uncomfortable with my voice and my thoughts, because it's not hurting anyone. I'm just putting out my thoughts and ideas. And it's enough to ruin somebody's day if they don't agree with my statement.

Dina Chaerani (30:54.743)

So yeah.

It's not my responsibility to make someone else feel bigger when I know they're actually being small. That's what it taught me, yeah.

Aderonke Bademosi Wilson (31:14.022)

What keeps you going? Like, you're being harassed, you're being doxed, you are being buffeted from different sides. And there's always the potential of physical violence against you. What keeps you motivated? How do you keep going?

Dina Chaerani (31:23.863)

Hmm.

Dina Chaerani (31:31.595)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Dina Chaerani (31:39.691)

I think the reason why I'm still doing this -- I mean, so many people ask me this question -- is I feel like I don't want to stop until I can fulfill my promise to my younger self, because back then I told myself: I'm going to advocate on these issues. I will be non-stop doing this because I know there are so many other young girls in Indonesia, and even in the world, actually experiencing the same thing and feeling small just because they are girls, just because they are women.

I know that I'm just one person and probably if I stop doing this, it's not going to create so many changes. But I feel like I am holding myself accountable for what I promised myself back then. And I see that it does give impact. And if I stop doing this, there's probably a girl out there who thinks the only way to talk about this is through me, and suddenly I close down my account. Now imagine that person will be exactly like I was back then. So I don't want to do that. And I feel like that's what keeps me going, even if I get doxed and everything -- because that is literally nothing compared to my other problems. I think of it that way.

Dina Chaerani (33:07.553)

So yeah.

Aderonke Bademosi Wilson (33:20.172)

You are listening to ABWilson's Heart of the Matter podcast.

Welcome back to ABWilson's Heart of the Matter. My guest today is Dina Chaerani.

Dina Chaerani (33:36.052)

Yaaas!

Aderonke Bademosi Wilson (33:38.808)

Dina, excuse me. Dina, we've talked about --

Aderonke Bademosi Wilson (33:50.616)

Dina, we've talked about the violence -- the sexual violence that you faced as a young teen. We've talked about your work helping other young people address sexual issues, whether understanding what sex is, what it feels like, what pleasure is, but also understanding the other side of it.

Dina Chaerani (33:58.177)

Mm-hmm.

Dina Chaerani (34:13.929)

Yeah.

Aderonke Bademosi Wilson (34:19.978)

Understanding violence, understanding boundaries, understanding what it looks like if you want to say no within any context of a relationship that you're in. We've also talked about the online harassment that you've faced over the years. What self-care practices or strategies help you to sustain your energy and motivation while navigating your journey?

Dina Chaerani (34:52.617)

Yeah, I mean, probably people will expect me to say, "Oh my god, I log off from my phone." Like, now I'm quite wired into it. I literally have to check my social media every day. So the only relatable self-care practice I can share is that I ensure my work is fun and joyful. For example, if there is harassment or people talking negatively about me, instead of being angry, I respond to the comment in a fun way, if I have time. Like, "Oh, you're going to go to hell" -- and I say, "See you there." That kind of thing. So instead of calling them out -- which I could do -- I'm calling them in. It creates a room for them to actually talk more with me and get to know me more, because usually they send everything via DM, which is private. So I can be myself then. It's fun for me -- it's like free comedy in a way. So I try to see the positive side.

But also honestly, music. When I'm stressed, I listen to music. I dance. I love dancing a lot. And I exercise almost every day. I do Zumba and I feel like it releases all the toxins from my body. So as much as I have a lot of work, I at least try to do a workout once a day, or if not, like four times a week -- minimum. But also honestly, you need to have your inner circle, a strong support system. And I'm privileged enough to actually have that -- my own partner, my own family. I feel respected and supported. So that's what makes me think, remember, keep going, girl. You have all the power and strength in the world, so don't stop yet.

Dina Chaerani (37:08.575)

So yeah. I don't do journaling -- no, that's not my thing. People will be like, journaling! And I'm like, I can't do that. I'm more loud. I'll be laughing and dancing -- that's my way to make sense of myself. That's me.

Aderonke Bademosi Wilson (37:26.158)

And what exciting opportunities do you see on the horizon? How do these opportunities align with your passions and aspirations?

Dina Chaerani (37:36.481)

Mm-hmm. Wait a minute.

Dina Chaerani (37:42.743)

Okay, sorry, two people already called me. That's so weird. So, the exciting opportunities -- I feel like this is good. I just actually resigned from my previous job, literally as of yesterday. So I had my own formal job, but I also have so many other things I do -- with Sex Dugram, with my advocacy, with my side jobs -- but I left my primary job.

It was because of my mental health. It had already become a hostile environment and everything. So I feel like it doesn't serve me anymore. I don't feel respected. And honestly, why would I hold onto something small and prevent something bigger from coming to me? So I feel like I need to let it go so that more opportunities come to me -- which is how God answered my prayer in a way. Because right after I resigned, so many other opportunities came. For example, other organizations seeing my content on social media -- I have my SRHR Barbie persona -- and people are like, "Odina, I would like to create content with you. Can you please create a documentary video or citizen journalism style, like this, this, this." And I said, "Sure, but you have to compensate me."

So I feel like now I'm turning my own career into being a social media influencer in a way. But it's still scary, you know, because it's not like a full-time job. I'm also applying for another job and working on my organization's work in Indonesia for the next two years on mental health. But I feel like I still have some room to do something else. So let's do this, you know -- I'm still young and I have time, hopefully, and I don't have kids yet. So it's good. What else am I waiting for? So I feel like, wow, there are more ways for me to make an impact and bring more voices of young people from all over the world. True storytelling. I like that.

Aderonke Bademosi Wilson (39:59.128)

Hmm.

Aderonke Bademosi Wilson (40:02.542)

Indeed. And so thank you. Thank you for sharing your thoughts. How might sharing your experiences of success and growth create a positive ripple effect in your family, community, the world?

Dina Chaerani (40:20.791)

I think stories give people permission, right? When someone in my family hears a woman like me -- an Indonesian woman shaped by lived experience, working at the intersection of advocacy and storytelling, speaking openly about her own sexuality, unapologetically -- maybe something shifts for them. Like, actually, I can do that too. There's nothing stopping me from doing that. They just need to see someone do it first and know that it's okay. So it can change the way they think: "Oh, I don't have to wait until I'm more polished or I have approval to begin."

And I also think it matters to share growth honestly with other people -- not another perfect success story, but something real and messy, without a facade. Tell the truth. Because I feel like what prevents us from growing bigger and better is that people always share only the good side -- that's social media. "You're doing perfectly well. You're traveling all around the world." They didn't know that I don't sleep. I have to juggle between meetings. We don't always share that because we don't have time to share all the difficult things.

So I feel like sharing the real, raw part of this journey connects people with the truth. They know exactly, okay, if I decided to follow her path, what it will actually look like. They can anticipate the process and they can acknowledge there will be failure -- and it will not stop them from keeping going. Because failure is sometimes the hardest thing. Not a lot of people handle failure very well. And yeah, I think it makes people braver. So that's the ripple effect I feel.

Aderonke Bademosi Wilson (42:34.072)

Do you know what brings you joy?

Dina Chaerani (42:37.354)

A lot of things actually. Good conversations like this bring me joy, because I know that humanity is still good and there is still hope in humanity. Not fake discussion -- good conversation. Humor brings me joy. I love comedy. I love humor. I feel like people who can handle humor and still take things seriously -- that person is actually smart enough and not shallow. So that's a good thing.

And what else makes me happy? Dancing brings me joy. Zumba brings me joy, literally dancing and singing. I don't have a really good voice, but I feel like I can release my soul and it's just super nice. I love yoga and walking. Walking makes me happy as well, especially walking with my own partner, just wandering around 10 or 20 kilometers without any destination. And then it brings energy when I come back to work again. Because I don't bring my phone when I walk. That's good. Let the world miss me for one or two hours. That makes me happy. So yeah.

Aderonke Bademosi Wilson (44:17.469)

Dina, we're coming to the end of our conversation.

Dina Chaerani (44:21.387)

No!

Aderonke Bademosi Wilson (44:26.734)

And one of the things that we touched on before we came on air was your name. So first of all, pronounce it properly for me, and then tell me about your name.

Dina Chaerani (44:33.899)

Mm-hmm. Mm.

Dina Chaerani (44:41.975)

So, my name is Dina. It's derived from Arabic. Dina means religion. And Khayrani -- it's supposed to be Khayrani -- it means good, good leader. So my parents expected me to be a good leader for my own religion, which I'm far away from. But anyway, that's the meaning. It's Dina Khayrani. Because it's no longer Khayrani, it's Chaerani.

Aderonke Bademosi Wilson (45:18.45)

And the C, which is at the start of your second name, is silent. And nobody else in your family is called Khayrani. So tell me about that.

Dina Chaerani (45:23.508)

It's silent.

Dina Chaerani (45:28.849)

No, nobody -- it's only me.

Yeah, so interestingly enough, in Indonesia -- if you check even on Google -- having a family name is not a common practice. So even with my sister, we have different names. My sister has three names, I have two names, my dad has one name, my mom has like four names. So it's really just random. Not a lot of families decided, "Okay, I'm going to create a family name," because it's not a common practice.

So many people are thinking, then how on earth do you know that you're not going to get married to someone from your own family? And we always say that there is a ministry that checks everything from our birth certificate to our lineage. That's how it works. Because we have to report before we get married, and they are the ones who ensure that we are not going to marry someone from the same lineage. But interestingly enough, not having a family name has been the norm throughout Indonesian history, because our ancestors usually did not have more than two names. That was until we were colonized by the Netherlands -- by the Dutch -- for about 350 years. I mean, we were colonized by so many other colonizers, but the longest was the Dutch. And when they came to Indonesia, they brought this custom that you have to have a family name. It was strange. And that's where the family name started -- when Dutch people married locals. And some leaders back then, during the colonization, of course, tried to adapt to the system. So to be allowed to enter the public schools run by the Dutch, they had to sort of --

Dina Chaerani (47:31.575)

-- acclimate, get along with them, so having a family name. But interestingly enough, it was only wealthy people who could go to those schools. So it means if you don't have a family name in Indonesia, you are not coming from a wealthy family -- just middle-income. That's the thing. But nowadays, if for example I get married and my partner is Indonesian, we can decide, "From now on we're going to use my last name for all our family." That can also happen. But it's not really a thing, you know. That's why.

Aderonke Bademosi Wilson (48:10.56)

And I did not know that. So you've definitely educated me. And I remember -- well, first of all, you and I met in Costa Rica at the beginning of March at the Gross Global Happiness Conference. And I remember you telling me that. And I thought it was really interesting how you got your name.

Dina Chaerani (48:23.721)

Yasss!

Dina Chaerani (48:40.209)

Exactly. So I'm so proud. Like, so many people say, "Oh my god, I'm going to give up my last name." Girl, I don't have a last name. I don't have a family name. It's just my name. And even if I want to get married -- my partner is Dutch, unfortunately, my god, this is crazy, like I'm going back to the colonization -- I told him, "I'm not going to take your last name." Even if I wanted to, it would be Dina Chaerani plus that last name, because Chaerani is not my family name. That's my name. That's my own personal identity. Nobody's going to take that from me.

I remember -- I think you were there as well in the session where we were thinking about what it would mean if you gave up your family name. It was like a workshop on the last day, I guess. Because you were sharing your experience there as well. Or maybe you came late.

Aderonke Bademosi Wilson (49:11.848)

That's your name.

Aderonke Bademosi Wilson (49:18.646)

Hmm... Hmm...

Aderonke Bademosi Wilson (49:29.1)

I wasn't in that one.

Dina Chaerani (49:38.899)

It was in the yard. We were like lying with our souls, like with sound. So yeah, the facilitator was saying, imagine you gave up your family name. I was like, I don't have a family name. So imagine if you became a different person. Like, no, this is me since I was born. Nothing's going to change even if I get married. That's what's in my head, you know.

Aderonke Bademosi Wilson (49:48.0)

Yes.

Dina Chaerani (50:08.477)

So it's interesting for so many different people. So yeah.

Aderonke Bademosi Wilson (50:13.29)

Dina, what book recommendation do you have? It can be a book you've read recently or something that has stayed with you over the years.

Dina Chaerani (50:23.831)

Yeah, I would recommend the listener to read the book Pleasure Activism. I love it because it reminds me that justice work cannot only be about pain, about survival, or crisis. It also has to make room for joy, desire, softness, imagination, and connection.

Like, especially -- the only person who can make it joyful is our own self. So if we always think, "Ugh, my job," like -- you chose that job. You literally have the full agency to leave or not. And I feel like because I chose this consciously, I have to make it fun. That's why sometimes, if someone is talking negatively about me, I make fun of it, make them even more annoyed. I believe there is somebody out there right now who, whenever my name comes up, it ruins their day. It makes them annoyed. It could ruin their month and everything. And it's not your responsibility to make everybody happy. As long as you're doing something good and you believe it's good, go ahead. So I say, go ahead, make it joyful and fun.

Though I won't say there aren't days when I'm crying like crazy. But again, I just showed you the good part.

Dina Chaerani (52:26.775)

Yeah.

Aderonke Bademosi Wilson (52:27.63)

Dina, is there anything else? Do you have any final thoughts to share with us today?

Dina Chaerani (52:33.003)

Hmm, let me think. People often celebrate resilience without asking why someone had to be so resilient in the first place. I'm proud of what I've built. I'm proud of what I have survived. But I also dream of a world where young people, especially young women, marginalized communities, and indigenous communities do not have to fight so hard just to be safe, do not have to fight so hard just to be heard, valued and informed, or do not need to fight for their own rights in the first place.

So I think what I want more of, in every sense, is more care, more empathy, more honesty, more courage, and more investment in people before they are already exhausted. And then people say, "But you chose that work. Activism is hard. Why did you choose that? Why didn't you go into another field that brings you a lot of money?" Like, it's not that you shouldn't question that. You should question why the world is so messed up in the first place. That's why there are people like me doing this job. We just need more kindness in the world and more love. So yeah. I feel like a philosopher today.

Aderonke Bademosi Wilson (54:07.106)

Dina, thank you. Thank you for being here today. Thank you for sharing your work with everybody that's listening. Thank you for giving me a first on this show -- where I just cracked up laughing.

Dina Chaerani (54:25.024)

Of course. I'm going to record this -- I'm putting it on my social media. Look at me, guys. I was just interviewed.

Aderonke Bademosi Wilson (54:36.202)

Thank you so much. And I'm just going to give our appreciation a nugget.

Aderonke Bademosi Wilson (54:47.79)

First of all, two things that you just said at the end of our conversation: people celebrate resilience without asking why the person had to be resilient in the first place. You also said, we need more kindness in the world and we need more love. You talked about being visible not being the same as being invincible. And you've also talked about the great cost to yourself that this work has imposed on you.

Dina Chaerani (55:27.396)

And you've also talked about the great cost to yourself that this work has imposed on you.

Aderonke Bademosi Wilson (55:31.106)

And so thank you so much. Thank you, thank you, thank you. I appreciate you taking the time to join me on ABWilson's Heart of the Matter, a podcast dedicated to asking overwhelmingly positive questions as we uncover incredible stories and wisdom of people you may know. Dina Chaerani, thank you so much for being here today.

Dina Chaerani (55:40.209)

And so, thank --

Dina Chaerani (56:08.777)

No, thank you so much, Aderonke. Oh my god. I'm so honored. I love this podcast. I listened to a couple of episodes. I love it.

Aderonke Bademosi Wilson (56:18.784)

Excellent. And keep listening and share it. I'm looking forward to talking to you again.

Dina Chaerani (56:22.666)

I will.

Dina Chaerani (56:27.689)

Of course. Let's do it. I mean, I'm planning to do a lot of other content, but yeah.

I can talk now.

Aderonke Bademosi Wilson (56:36.206)

So thank you.