S4 Ep2: Play Is Healing: Courage, Hope, and Joy with Lisa Caughman

In this uplifting episode of ABWilson’s Heart of the Matter, Aderonke Bademosi Wilson welcomes Lisa Caughman, a cancer survivor, positive psychology practitioner, interfaith minister, author and passionate advocate for the healing power of play. 

Lisa reflects on her journey through childhood trauma, stage four colon cancer, COVID-19 and Hurricane Helene, sharing how each experience shaped her understanding of resilience, community, hope and intentional living.

Lisa introduces listeners to her “Let Us Play” philosophy, inspired by positive psychology and the belief that play is not frivolous or childish. For Lisa, play can be a source of joy, healing, connection and renewal. It may happen during a shared retreat, while singing with friends, while noticing wildlife in nature or simply by finding a spark of delight in an ordinary moment. 

She encourages listeners to become more conscious of these opportunities and to make room for laughter, joy and connection in everyday life.

A powerful part of the conversation centers on Lisa’s cancer survivor retreats. At one retreat, women who arrived as strangers left as lifelong friends after spending several days laughing, crying, singing, journaling, practicing yoga, sharing meals and rediscovering the freedom to play. One participant told Lisa that she had spent three days forgetting she had cancer, a reflection that affirmed Lisa’s belief in the restorative power of community and joy.

Lisa speaks candidly about her stage four colon cancer diagnosis in 2016 and the intentional practices that supported her healing journey. She describes walking on a treadmill while listening to music, using guided meditations, journaling, drawing angel oracle cards, eating well, listening to her body, drinking more water and prioritizing preventive health care. She also offers a heartfelt reminder about the importance of age-appropriate screenings, including colonoscopies.

The episode explores Lisa’s experience during Hurricane Helene, when her Western North Carolina community faced devastating damage, prolonged power outages, destroyed roads, flooding and the loss of homes and lives. Lisa describes how neighbors supported one another and how she continued serving her community through her work in school nutrition. Even amid extraordinary hardship, she and those around her found ways to care for one another, feed people and make lemonade out of lemons.

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Aderonke (00:01.612)
Welcome to another edition of ABWilson's Heart of the Matter, a podcast that uses overwhelmingly positive questions to learn about our guests, where every episode uncovers extraordinary stories of triumph, growth, and empowerment. Hi, I'm Aderonke Bademosi Wilson. Greetings from Bermuda. My guest on today's show is Lisa Caughman. Lisa is a survivor. A Maven and author. Lisa, welcome to the show.

Lisa Caughman (00:36.104)
Thank you, Aderonke. I'm glad to be here. Thanks for having me.

Aderonke (00:40.877)
Lisa, I wanna start with your descriptors and I'm gonna go to author first. Tell me about being an author.

Lisa Caughman (00:48.692)
It's very exciting. I actually have a chapter in the Flourishing Center's book, How We Flourish. And it is my chapter is about let us play, which is play is one of the pillars from vitality in the positive psychology pillar model of PERMA-V.

Aderonke (01:13.812)
And can you tell us a little bit about the chapter and play? I mean, I'm dead curious about playing.

Lisa Caughman (01:21.282)
Well, play for many people I have learned is very, very hard. So I have embraced learning to play, play as joy, joy as medicine, and taking folks that have I am a cancer survivor, I am also a childhood trauma survivor. So I never learned how to play. So I was kind of selfish. My message, let us play. It's not let us play and have fun necessarily as let us play. We deserve to have play. And we deserve to I always say take lemons and make lemonade. So we are using play to make lemonades and to be childlike and to learn how to thrive. Beyond a cancer diagnosis or behind beyond adversity or any trauma that we may have had may have had in our lifetimes, which is amazing. So my chapter with the flourishing center is Let Us Play. And it is talking about the science of play and the evidence that supports that play actually can help people heal and lead a happier life.

Aderonke (02:41.156)
So when people I was when I think about play, I tend to think you have to set time aside, you have to go somewhere, you have to do something, you have to maybe play with others, play nicely with others. Is is is is that your your thought around your your chapter or is play something more spontaneous?

Lisa Caughman (02:54.946)
Ha ha ha

Lisa Caughman (03:08.654)
That's an excellent, excellent question. And it really is both because I am a firm believer that we need community and we need connection. And so we can gather, we can schedule and say, hey, let's go play. So I actually host retreats. I've hosted cancer retreats where we just went and played for 72 hours and we did lots of different things as a community and we did play. So that answers that question. It takes a village to play, but it also takes a great intuition and self-care and a great relationship with yourself to learn to play. For example, right now I'm having a blast talking to you, and this is play. Looking outside and seeing a mama bear and three baby bears walk through the woods and finding joy in that moment. That is play. So it's kind of, you know, Aderonke, it's taking the mundane and making it each moment more joyful and embracing, hey, wait a minute. I don't want to miss that spark. I want to play and I want to find joy, even when I'm alone.

Aderonke (04:22.446)
So is it a matter of being conscious of your environment and so like recognizing it as a pause right now in order for people to experience play and then get more of it?

Lisa Caughman (04:38.077)
Absolutely, absolutely. It's living very consciously, very intentionally, and not just going through the motion. And certainly a stage four colon cancer diagnosis in 2016 taught me how to live more intentionally and how to seek those moments of joy, laughter, play, connection, and and really to be braver, but certainly to live. More intentionally and notice the joy and simply just being alive and being here and sharing that gift with others.

Aderonke (05:17.142)
And so Lisa, thank you. Thank you for explaining and giving us more an opportunity to really think about joy play with joy. And I I wanna go to your next descriptor. You've called yourself a survivor, and I think you've touched on that a little. Can you can you just elaborate a little bit more on what being a survivor looks like for you?

Lisa Caughman (05:45.4)
Being a survivor for me is, I hope, an inspiration for myself to continue surviving and also an inspiration to others to survive adversity, whatever their diagnosis or obstacle they had to overcome was, by learning positive growth. Positive by adopting a positive mindset by looking into hope and being hopeful that even in the valleys we can climb our second or third, fourth or fifth mountain and keep going. And and how to bounce back and be resilient and go, goodness gracious, that was a lemon. Give me a little bit of sugar, give me a little bit of a pitcher and some water and let me make lemonade.

Aderonke (06:37.206)
Hmm. Thank you. And Maven. Tell me about being a Maven.

Lisa Caughman (06:41.937)
Maven, look at my hair, you know, my white hair. I I like to think of myself as a a Maven and a survivor as Sage, where I've taken life lessons in my foundation, Lee Lee's life lessons, where I've gathered knowledge, information, and wisdom along the way, along the journey. So I want to continue researching all of the positive psychology informed. I'm working with my daughter on an epic delivery method that she created. And it's just a beautiful way to take what we learn and give it to others as a gift. So Maven, Sage, Survivor, all kind of integrated into who I am now.

Aderonke (07:31.554)
And thank you. And as you are, I guess, maturing, you're you're finding opportunities to share your knowledge and wisdom with others.

Lisa Caughman (07:42.604)
Yes, yes, absolutely. Absolutely. And as much as other people are sponges and like to learn, I am also a sponge that loved to learn from other people. So one thing that I'm really, really working on as I grow hopefully wiser is active listening so that I hear other people's stories and they can I can learn from them and they can hear my story and learn from me as well.

Aderonke (08:12.856)
Thank you. And I I just wanna you touched on it very briefly. You said you're working on an epic delivery method with your daughter. Can you talk a little bit more about that?

Lisa Caughman (08:24.173)
My daughter Shelby has absolutely got this amazing mind and she can take what I'm thinking and elaborate on it, which is a beautiful thing. We have that. She's my mini me, if you will. So my mini me can say, okay, mom, let me she's a scientist and she can capture what I'm thinking, the big picture, and and put it into a framework. So her epic is take let us play. Thriving with and beyond cancer or thriving with and beyond adversity or neurodivergence or any subject matter for that matter for that we can just aka epic is express integrate Or express play, integrate, and then C is simply carry forward. So Epic is the delivery model that she has created for the Let Us Play philosophy.

Aderonke (09:27.598)
Hmm. And so how can people have access to it? How can people find out more about the program and the programs that you're creating?

Lisa Caughman (09:39.85)
They are welcome to reach out to me. I have a website, www.leeleeslifelessons.org. And LeeLee was the nickname that my mother named me when I was a little girl. And when she called me Lily, I knew that the world was okay and that I was safe and everything surrounding me was safe. That was just a lovely, lovely. It was actually Lily BB, but I'm not gonna make people write all of that. It's just LeeLee's Life Lessons dot org. I'm also on LinkedIn, Lisa Caughman, and then I have a Facebook page. LeeLee's Life Lessons and also another one, Lisa Caughman. And then I have an Instagram, Let Us Play 365, where I post spark plays, which are just kind of daily reminders to find joy, find laughter, find happiness, and don't ruminate on the negative and take the negative, accept it for what it is and try to make the best of it. You're welcome.

Aderonke (10:47.874)
Hmm, thank you. Thank you so much. And so Lisa, please share three interesting things about yourself that our listeners may not know and your friends will be surprised to learn.

Lisa Caughman (11:03.303)
Goodness, goodness. I have to keep some secrets. But but the listeners certainly would not know that on June 16th I celebrated my 10-year anniversary of surviving stage four colon cancer. And I just looked at the date at Aderonke and realized that today is the 10-year anniversary of my surgery to remove that cancer. So today is a joyful, joyful day. So for all my friends that don't know anything about me or that I haven't spoken about it in a in quite a while, I'll just say thanks for being there when I needed you and I love you dearly. And for the new folks listening, or to everybody, get your colonoscopies if you're 45 and over. That's something I would certainly like to live with that. I'm also an ordained interfaith minister. I accept people where they are. I love people of all faiths, all religions, all cultures. And I would love to see more love and kindness in this world. And I'm just so thankful to be here to be able to say that to this audience because we certainly need love and healing right now more than ever. And I like finding connection in hard places. And third, staying on the subject of play. I just want to remind people that play for some is very hard. But you it can be learned and it is not childish. It is an absolute blast. Play is sacred. Play is healing. And it's one of the ways that we can enjoy ourselves and not take ourselves so seriously. I'm learning to do that, and I'm having a blast.

Aderonke (12:53.39)
So I just wanna go back to what you said a few minutes ago.

Aderonke (13:03.436)
Life is about finding connection in hard places. Tell me about that. What does that look like for you?

Lisa Caughman (13:10.449)
A great example is as I hosted a Let Us Play Cancer Survivor Retreat last fall in Maggie Valley, North Carolina, Smoky Valley, Smoky Shadows. I'll give them a shout out. There's no place you'd rather be. And 10 women came, and it it wasn't exclusive for women, but 10 women responded to the invitation, ranging in age from 32 to I guess I was probably the oldest, in my mid-60s now. Ten women who had never met. One or two, I knew one or two, I did, but the other women had not met each other. Well, that's okay. So one or two, we had a pair of sisters and then we had a caregiver and a cousin. So a few of them knew each other, but for the most part strangers, who by the time they left became lifelong friends. We sat around. We talked about laughter. We talked about joy. We talked about play. We were ridiculously silly in getting these little handheld instruments out and playing music, playing drums. We did some drumming. We stood on the back porch and sang in rounds. We, our beautiful host, Tracy and hostesses Tracy and Amy, cooked amazing home cook. Meals and we sat down as a family and ate. We had yoga. We we did journaling and we laughed. We cried. But one testimonial that I received from our youngest participant was I just spent three days forgetting that I had cancer. And that made the retreat so worthwhile. And I'll be hosting another one this fall from generous donors. Friends of Peter Mayer and private donors have have will support me having another retreat. And I've gotten involved. I'm being sponsored now by Messino Cancer Center in Asheville, North Carolina. And I'll be doing Let us play in six of their clinics and taking this out into the world of cancer patients as my flagship.

Aderonke (15:28.952)
Thank you. That the program sounds absolutely amazing and an opportunity for women, but it sounds like men as well to come together in and play and enjoy and in healing. And there is something very special about bringing people together around such positive focus and outlook. How can people find out more? How can if somebody's listening become a part of your next program?

Lisa Caughman (16:09.931)
Well, there's several ways. One, LeeLee's Life Lessons, www.leeleeslifelessons.org. There's a contact form on there. Just click on that button and send me an email and someone will get back to you as soon as possible. We try to say 24 hours, but it may be 48, because we are human. That is one way. And another way is to email me at Lisa at leeleeslifelessons.org. Again. Give me grace. If I don't get back in 24 hours, I'll try with 48 hours. And so that's it right now. And that's for survivors that would be interested in a Let Us Play Positive Psychology retreat for donors. There is a donate site on there, and I don't I don't ask for money. But I will say that if you choose to donate, you will be sponsoring someone to come to a retreat. All of the money that we have has been donated goes. Right back to survivors, which is absolutely beautiful things because I try to receive donations so I'm not asking a survivor who is already strapped with financial hardship, not knowing what the outcome of their treatment is going to be, and living beyond that treatment and still recovering from the financial hardship. So I do accept donations. We are a 501c foundation. So donations are tax deductible. To the extent and I have a collective joys circle, so you can choose which where you want to fall on that tier to be a part of a community that supports thrivers and survivors.

Aderonke (17:53.176)
Thank you for the work you do.

Lisa Caughman (17:55.669)
I love the work that I do. It fills my cup and I fill other cu other people's cup and brings great joy. Tears and laughter. Lemonade.

Aderonke (18:07.52)
Lisa, can you tell us about a recent accomplishment or success that you're particularly proud of?

Lisa Caughman (18:14.583)
Well, that retreat. Last September certainly is one of those. Writing a chapter in How We Flourish book has been very exciting being on your podcast. So I can't tell you one Aderonke, but I can tell you that I have a book, Let Us Play Thriving With and Beyond Cancer, that is actually I email back and forth this morning. I'll be Friday morning be speaking with a hopefully a final edit editor. And that book is some ki it's it's it's it's a combination of a little bit of a memoir about me, because I don't want everything that I do to be about me. I want what I do to be about myself and others. So it's an invitation for survivors to read my story and to learn to trust me and to know that I'm there to walk beside them. It's also an opportunity for practitioners, oncologists and nurse practitioners and social workers and psychologists to read that and go, we really like this let us play philosophy, and we think we need it. So I I don't want it to be a marketing brochure, but there is a little bit of marketing in there, of course. And then most importantly, I want it to be known that. I am building, growing, and would like to expand this philosophy so that it becomes a movement for people to join and learn to play. Again, going back to what I said earlier, it's amazing how many adults I've spoken to that just like look like a deer in headlights when I say, How do you play? A lot of people don't know. So let's go learn to play together.

Aderonke (20:05.13)
Hmm. Thank you.

Lisa Caughman (20:06.016)
And I'm really you're welcome. It's just I'm proud of adopting that philosophy. And I just think that it's really something that we all need. As you can hear my voice, I'm extremely passionate about it. Not only has it been healing for me, I've watched it been be healing for other people. And it certainly, certainly is a great conversation piece. And I I'm looking excited about

Aderonke (20:08.838)
C I cut you off.

Lisa Caughman (20:31.146)
My daughter being on board with me, my board of directors are very supportive of what we're doing. And it's just it's just amazing to just remind people, play is healing. Play can help. Play can help you make you feel better. It can help you move forward.

Aderonke (21:00.216)
Wow, thank you. Thank you. Lisa, please tell us about a time when you made a difference in another's life. What were the circumstances? Paint a picture for me.

Lisa Caughman (21:11.976)
Okay, all right. Well, okay, I think in my answers to your previous questions, I've been kind of painting that picture. But let's let's put a frame around it. Okay. The frame around the picture of what my current work is as a positive psychology practitioner. I am retired school nutrition director from Buncombe County Schools, so I have spent a lifetime as a public servant. And as a school administrator. So if I'm putting, if you ask me that question, a time when I made a difference in another's life, I spent my entire career feeding children and advocating for hungry children and universal meals for all students in schools. And I still advocate for that. That's a difference I made in a collective group of of people. Now I'm making a difference in cancer survivors' lives, which I find great joy in. Not that they have cancer, but that the universe allowed me to meet such wonderful, wonderful people that we have in common, that we are all cancer survivors, or we're caretakers, or I I I did I gave a speech at Carolina Hunger Initiatives a couple of months ago, I believe it was in March. We talked about let us play. Taking the stage, which was taking the stage to make a difference in people's lives, being your authentic self and taking the gift you have. So right now painting a pitch for you, I'm gonna put a frame around one great big heart. It's just a heart. And then beside that heart is a cup. My heart is full when I give and when I receive and my cup is full when I give and I receive. That's my picture.

Aderonke (23:07.508)
Mm. Thank you. I can almost see it in my mind, right? And and the ability to keep pouring from your cup as you continually receive at the same time.

Lisa Caughman (23:27.241)
And and in that cup, in that cup, I just want joy and laughter and community and connectivity and for people to laugh and cry, but not to cry from a sad place, but to cry from a relieved place, a resilient place, to realize that they were seen, they were noticed, and that they are important.

Aderonke (23:59.023)
What are the key strengths and qualities you rely on to make a difference for others?

Lisa Caughman (24:06.02)
Empathy. Empathy. And I don't mean empathy as just a word. I mean empathy is being able to actively listen to them and actually put myself in their shoes so that I can understand because each person's journey is unique. And you really have to be able to empathize with them to hear them so that you can I I don't want to use the word coach here because I I'm not a champion. I'm not being a champion. I'm not coaching people in a sense that rah-rah simba, but I am helping meet people meet themselves where they are. So empathy, courage, courage to put my story out there, courage to listen to other people's story, courage to advocate for. The need to play and to be seen and to be joyful in a world that sometimes doesn't offer that on a platter. So we are going to create our own plate.

Lisa Caughman (25:21.174)
Does that answer your question?

Aderonke (25:22.614)
It does. Thank you. Can you recall a situation where you overcame a challenge that led to personal growth? What did you learn from that experience?

Lisa Caughman (25:35.879)
I had a conversation with my brother, my sweet, sweet brother. Thank goodness he's the only boy out of three girls, but he has been such an advocate for me growing and expanding, let us play, based on our childhood experiences. And I'm I'm I'm private about our childhood because it was very painful for the four of us. But what it has done has helped to begin healing all of us because we're talking about it. So right as I said earlier, let us play thriving with and beyond cancer is my flagship, but eventually I will onboard medical professionals. I am not a medical professional and I and I do want to put that disclaimer out there. I'm not here to diagnose or I'm just here to support and be a positive psychology practitioner and a faith minister, integrate and using Epic to ingredient in. Integrate mind, body, and spirit so that we can play and have fun and and and keep our rose colored glasses on. But back to your question. My brother asked me last week, he said, you know, who was the Lisa before the cancer diagnosis? And that's true. The Lisa before cancer diagnosis was a school administrator, kind of a I don't I'm not gonna I I I'm known to be kind of a Not as loving and giving and caring as I am now, kind of a tough boss. I was a boss lady. And I was had huge responsibility. And sometimes I did not play enough and enjoy that as much as I should have, and nor did the people that worked for me. And I get it. And we don't get a do-over. We just learn. We just learn and we move forward. So cancer took this girl. So I went from cancer. To COVID, from COVID to Hurricane Helene. So that's about from 2016 to just last year. A pretty huge span of my life learning to be resilient, learning to bounce back, learning to make better lemonade out of really, really a lot of lemons.

Lisa Caughman (27:56.769)
And that challenge taught me to be a better friend, a better parent, a better member of the community. I already had that servant's heart, but it also taught my heart to grow. My brother asked last week, he said, where would you have been before cancer? What would you have done if you hadn't got cancer? I said, I don't know. But I can tell you the past 10 years of my life since that diagnosis have been some of the best years of my life. From going to the flourishing center, getting certif certification as a positive psychology practitioner, becoming an interfaith minister with the alliance of divine love. And now as a retiree from the school system, going to the University of Peace with the Global Happiness Summit, just all of the people I have met because of this journey, because of the cancer diagnosis. Life-changing, but it's turned out to be a really beautiful, beautiful, life-changing experience.

Aderonke (29:06.196)
And I I wanna add that you and I met at the University for Peace in Costa Rica and we I remember us being in a group where we had we gave ourselves a self imposed deadline of March the thirty first to get a project that we had been working on. It was you, me and another lady who's also named Lisa.

Lisa Caughman (29:13.27)
Yeah.

Lisa Caughman (29:31.594)
Uh-huh.

Aderonke (29:32.601)
To and we would check in with each other and I know that we did afterwards. And just if anybody wants to know, there's a great picture of the three of us in there in the Gross Global Happiness promotion for the conference that's taking place next March. So if you're curious about what we look like, it's the three ladies that are there in deep conversation. So Lisa, it it thank you. I I was able to complete my project on time. I know you and I talked about it and we did connect after the conference to just make sure that we had followed through on our accountability buddy buddies. And and so I appreciated you as we talked about my project, but I also appreciated the fact that you and I really got to connect over our

Lisa Caughman (30:15.382)
That's right. That's right.

Aderonke (30:29.824)
Over our respective projects.

Lisa Caughman (30:32.586)
Yes we did. Yes we did. We we knew from the moment we saw each other and the more we talked that we would be friends for life and I am so grateful. Yeah.

Aderonke (30:40.64)
Indeed. Absolutely. Absolutely. And sometimes you just know. You just know. You feel the energy.

Lisa Caughman (30:44.94)
Yeah, that's right. You do, you just know. From sitting in the lobby with singing to the top of our lungs, I have to rem I have to remind you of that.

Aderonke (30:52.878)
Yeah. My god. I we so just just so that people know that the hotel that we stayed in, we stayed in the same hotel, which was the hotel of the conference, but the conference was at the university. And there was one evening, I think it was our last evening. Was it our last evening? We just we finished dinner and we came back and we were sitting there talking and you and

Lisa Caughman (31:12.32)
Yes, it was. It was.

Aderonke (31:23.7)
Your daughter talked about singing and the beautiful voices that you have and so there we were in the lobby of the hotel. I and I try to not sing as loud because I don't have that gift.

Lisa Caughman (31:38.74)
She has that gift. She has that gift. Sing loud, sing proud, sing loud, sing proud, as David Lamont would say. She has that gift. And Shelley's friend, the young man that was there, he was awesome.

Aderonke (31:42.744)
Yeah who needs Who need who needs to be on Kiwi when you're having fun?

Lisa Caughman (31:53.905)
Well that's right. Let us play. Exactly. Exactly. You don't have to be perfect. You just have to have the right mindset.

Aderonke (32:00.2)
And And and we did. I I enjoyed singing despite my limited talents in that area.

Lisa Caughman (32:10.956)
I don't know. She that's not true. She was great. It was wonderful. It was wonderful.

Aderonke (32:17.028)
It was indeed a lot of fun. It was. You are listening to ABWilson's Heart of the Matter podcast.

Lisa Caughman (32:21.066)
Yeah, wise.

Aderonke (32:29.474)
Welcome back to ABWilson's Heart of the Matter. My guest today is Lisa Caughman. Lisa, we have talked about play and joy and the peace and tranquility it brings. We you've talked about your anniversary dates of being diagnosed with cancer and being a cancer survivor. We've talked about the retreat that you host in September that you will host again. This coming September and your upcoming epic framework and the chapter that you wrote in the Let us flourish book. What self care practices?

Aderonke (33:18.978)
Do you

Aderonke (33:23.854)
What self care practices or strategies help you to sustain your energy and motivation while navigating your journey?

Lisa Caughman (33:33.127)
That's a great question because I really had to become more disciplined because I went from being a eighty or ninety hour a week workaholic as an administrator to going, Okay, all right, that's you that's not gonna be good for you to continue that if you want to stay alive and and overcome this cancer diagnosis. So I have a lovely, lovely I I was very, very fortunate to have many angels in my life when I was first diagnosed. And I went to Wind River Cancer Wellness Retreat in Tryon, North Carolina, which is no longer an active retreat center, but still very much in touch with many of those folks. And one person in particular comes to mind, Cheryl LaCroix. And Cheryl and I now currently work as consultants with the After Cancer, which is another wonderful virtual organization that supports survivors. But Cheryl is really into nutrition and health and wellness. She herself is a breast cancer survivor. So I I again my career was in school nutrition. So I knew how to eat well. I knew how to what you should do. But as a workaholic and sitting behind a desk, that didn't mean I did it. One thing I did during my journey is my cancer journey was I set up a treadmill and I got this awesome, awesome playlist. And I put my headphones on and I would walk miles a day going, I have to do this, whether I want to or not. I'd have to do this, whether I want to or not, my head would be down. I'd be recovering from a chemo session, going walk, walk, walk. I also listen to Belaruth Naperstack's Health Journey CD collection, chemotherapy being the main one. I highly recommend that to anyone that's diagnosed with cancer if she also has other PTSD, etc., in her Health Journey series. I listen to her every night. I would first listen to her word for word and just go into a deep state of meditation.

Lisa Caughman (35:44.865)
Then I got to the point where she could say hello and I would fall fast asleep and at four or five o'clock in the morning wake up and turn it off because it was music to my ears. So I I highly recommend that. I still listen to a lot of guided meditations. I'm going to start recording some soon. I have one, but I don't haven't published it yet. I believe in guided meditations and I also get up every morning and I write. I try to journal. Every morning and write a story and set my intention to have a good day. And I draw angel oracle cards because I'm a firm believer in intuition and our guardian angels and our archangels and I I draw a card every day and I reflect on that during the day and eat well and sleep and I talking to myself drank more water. Drink more water.

Lisa Caughman (36:46.068)
That was I was fussing at myself because I don't drink enough water. So I'm working on it. But but be again going being intentional and and there's a lot of I have a couple of friends that are registered dietitians and nutritionists and they help guide you. There's things that you do learn you can or cannot eat after you've had years of chemotherapy and treatment. So

Aderonke (36:50.079)
Mm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Lisa Caughman (37:10.528)
Just following the guidelines and taking care of yourself, being very listen to your body, listen to your body and and get your preventative your colonoscopies, your mammograms, everything that you should be getting based on your age and your gender.

Aderonke (37:34.136)
You mentioned oracle cards.

Lisa Caughman (37:37.035)
Uh-huh.

Aderonke (37:38.816)
Angel Oracle cards. Tell me more about them and what do you do with them after you've drawn them and used them throughout the day.

Lisa Caughman (37:50.134)
I th I wish I had my decks with me right now. I don't have them in front of me, but I have a few decks I'll use. They are Kyle Gray, I just I just pulled one this morning. It's angel oracle cards. It's about all the archangels and they're like, kind of, I am with you. I am right here beside you. So you know you're not alone. Spiritual reminder, even if you're in in the house by yourself, you have community and if you need the angel of light to come. And Bradley Vi Valentine has a great one on. Also on Archangels and I love it because it's Archangel Michael going, I am here. What do you need, sister? So it it's kind of a kind of I've become friends with him, you know, you just you you set your intention to get guidance from your angels from the day, and they're a reminder that you always have guardian angels with you. Like my mother is one of my guardian angels. My I lost her in 99. My grandmother, who I never met, grandmother Julia, she died in 1952. I think she's one of my guardian angels, my papa, my mother's father. I know he's one of my guardian angels every time I get behind the wheel of a car. So I I kind of tune in to my guardian angels. And the archangels that are that are out there and go, okay, today's intention is to reconnect with yourself, to trust yourself, and to move forward. You're on the right path. So they kind of validate where you are, but it's kind of nice to have that reminder.

Aderonke (39:34.894)
Thank you for that because I totally misunderstood. When you said drawer, I thought you literally were creating the cards. But you're selecting.

Lisa Caughman (39:43.406)
No, no doubt. I'm drawing. I'm selecting. So I I went a little bit woo woo on you there at Aderonke, which is okay. I'm a little bit woo.

Aderonke (39:50.819)
No, no, that's fine. 'Cause 'cause somebody needs to hear this, right? Somebody absolutely needs to hear this and they will take comfort and strength from your words and be able to use it for themselves or share it with others. And hopefully share the podcast, but also share your your websites with others so that they can learn more for themselves directly from you.

Lisa Caughman (40:20.691)
Yeah, and if what if what they're looking for is not on the website, they can still reach out to me because I may not be where they need to land, but I can provide resources and help them. Gladly, gladly we'll do that. Had someone reach out to me last week and it was the universe puts people in your path that are supposed to be there. So we just trust that, yeah. Yeah.

Aderonke (40:45.22)
Absolutely. A and I I do believe in that and they show up at the right time for you when they're supposed to. You mentioned Hurricane Helene. Tell me a little bit about the hurricane and being in Bermuda, we are so very familiar with hurricanes and and say a little bit about where you are. I neglected to mention where you actually live and the impact that Hurricane Helene had on your community.

Lisa Caughman (40:52.819)
That's right.

Lisa Caughman (41:18.857)
So I live in Western North Carolina in Asheville, North Carolina, which was I watched the July 4th celebration on ABC, was just named one of the seven wonders of America, the Appalachian Mountains, and a restaurant, Good Hot Fish in Asheville was mentioned, which was just amazing because Asheville, when I moved to Asheville in 1989, it was a quiet, sleepy town. And keep in mind, I'm in the mountains. So you feel very protected and you feel all these big mountains around you, and it's one of the oldest mountain chains in the world. It's a beautiful, beautiful mountain chain. We have great biodiversity and great ecosystem, and we're not supposed to get hurricanes. Okay. And the end of September.

Aderonke (42:03.748)
Yeah.

Lisa Caughman (42:10.569)
We knew that a storm was coming and I still get very emotional when I talk about it. We knew a storm was coming and Jim, my partner and me stood downstairs with a sliding glass door open and we watched this storm come. We were released from work, everybody went home and said, make sure you've got enough supplies for two or three days, and you'll be out of power for two or three days. And we watched a storm come and we watched our largest tree in the backyard. We live in the woods on the side of a mountain. The largest tree in our backyard get literally picked up, turned around, snapped, dropped. I said, we need to get in the basement. And I turned around, watched the largest tree in my front yard go on the house and a across the front yard. Then we watched what turned out to be a tornado go up to the mountain. And Jim said, We're not going to the basement. It's gone. Okay. All right. Well that was not exciting. Wow. That was huge. More than we expected. Then I called my neighbor. I have a elderly neighbor who several we all we check on each other. There's 19 houses on this mountain. We all check on each other. And she said I think I'm okay, I'm not sure. She actually just moved back into her house about two months ago. So she her house was destroyed. We could nobody could get to her without walking. So it it has been I've said this and and again the hurricane was harder than my cancer diagnosis. Cancer diagnosis, you hear you're going to have cancer, you go to the doctor, you get the treatment, you hope for the best. This hurricane that was not supposed to come over the mountain came into this county and several surrounding counties and damaged a lot of property, a lot of lost life, and I it's just whoa, just whoa. So

Lisa Caughman (44:31.121)
I can say I'm resilient all day long and I have recovered. But that one's going to stay with me for a long, long time because we still see it. Our road back to our homes was just completed, paving three weeks ago. We drive through our little pillars, which I used to call the Shire from Lord of the Rings. It was magical.

Aderonke (44:51.724)
Mm.

Lisa Caughman (44:53.501)
And all the tired trees and trees are still down. We had one fall in the backyard yesterday because the root systems were destroyed. And I was still working as in and this is a blessing that I had I had told Buncombe County Schools I was going to retire, but I did not. Had already hired what fortunately turned out to be my replacement, Katie, and was in the process of training her. She had only worked there a month when this hurricane came in. I had 32 schools, 32 freezers. I lost food in 32 freezers. I lost a lot of food. And during the during COVID, Adoranka, I was able to go in as the administrator and the leader, and we fed the community and we were heroes. And we worked tirelessly to take care of families and people at a time where they Couldn't come out and play. Nobody could play with anybody. So we were able to feed people. We continued working through COVID. I continued working through my cancer diagnosis because that is who I am. A servant's heart. I'm out there giving, giving, giving. And then this hurricane came. We lost food, no power, no, we did not have the infrastructure in place because we're not an area.

Aderonke (46:04.132)
Yeah first.

Lisa Caughman (46:21.503)
That gets hurricanes. So that said, at my house, we were without a power probably about three weeks. And but I left every day. I would walk about two and a half miles to the corner where this beautiful young man, Chip, owns the building. And I would drive a county car because I was an essential employee. I went in every day. And we were able to feed some folks, employees, with all the resources that we had. And again, we made lemonade out of lemons. And I am trauma-bonded to many, many people out of that experience. And I will never forget the week when we finally was able to get online. And it took about a week. My sweet, sweet baby son, I have three beautiful children, Tenet, Shelby, and Christian. Three beautiful grandchildren, but my baby son Christian, who is 35, said, Would somebody please tell me if my mother is okay? I know that she and Jim were prepared for this storm, but I can't get to her and she can't get to me. Whoa. So the sad part was this is where he was born and raised. And when I was able to get to him, he said, I can I come? I'm on my way.

Aderonke (47:26.158)
Mm-hmm.

Lisa Caughman (47:46.987)
Please don't, because we needed the resources that we had to stay in our community. And several people offered to come. I said, please don't. Talk about the need for community. I love these people on this mountain and they love us. Again, we're trauma bonded, but we made lemonade and a couple of cocktails out of that one. But thank you for asking about that. Western North Carolina has done a beautiful job of recovering and is still in recovery and will be for years. And our heart goes out to Texas, our heart goes out to Bermuda or Jamaica. Weart goes to we hear the word hurricane and we cringe. And we know that these mountains, they did the best they could to protect us. A lot of families were lost. Families were lost. In landslides and mountain slides. I hope I hope that people take climate change seriously. I hope people take science seriously. I hope that people learn from the need to build community and depend on one another and be prepared for the next storm so that you can overcome it. We can overcome it and live to tell about it. And that people learn.

Aderonke (49:18.094)
Thank you, Lisa. Thank you for sharing your story of your family, but also of your community and the resilience that it takes to overcome nature, right? Overcome Mother Nature.

Lisa Caughman (49:35.078)
If I ca if I may, my superintendent at the time at the school system, Rob Jackson, he's retiring at the end of August. The day the hurricane hit, I knew I needed to go feed a community. My partner said, You're not going anywhere. I said, watch me. Here I go. So had to walk off the mountain. He said, Hold on, I'm going with you. Okay. Thank you, honey. I walked off the mountain, had to walk through w had never been a river there but was it was a river, had was crossed the road. So we walked through. We did. Probably wasn't the smartest thing in the world, but I've never propped I've never said I was the smartest or the sharpest tack in the box. But anyway, when I nobody could call anybody when I got to the school district, actually a maintenance man came and picked me up when I walked And Ron took me to the school district where I knew my county car was. Rob Jackson and his wife were there. To this day, we both knew we would be there. We were able to read each other's mind from afar. We knew where our hearts were, and we knew what had to be done. And we still, again, trauma bonded, but to know someone that well. To know what their mission and purpose is is is pretty special. It's pretty special. So that was again a gift. You you you you learn how to play, you learn how to laugh, you learn how to make the best of the bad, you learn how to depend on other people, which is a beautiful thing. We're all in this together. We're in this together.

Aderonke (51:02.317)
Mm.

Aderonke (51:23.332)
Thank you, Lisa. I do understand what it takes for community to come together to rally when immediate help is not available and you have to depend on yourselves and find a way through. You check on your neighbors, you check on family members, hopefully you have a plan for your family. In order to be able to know how you'll move forward before, during, and after. And given the nature of storms and the unpredictability that comes with it, not knowing how long it will last, not knowing what the damage will look like afterwards, one of the things that I've always appreciated about my community is how we do come together, how we are able to put aside whatever pettiness or petty differences we think we have in order to say, how how can I help? How can I help you? How can I support you as we go through this together? I often refer to it as hurricane thinking because there's nothing else that's taking up your time. Other than how do we get through this together? And so I I totally get the level of connection you have with others during this time and it stays. It stays with you long after the incident because the incident

Aderonke (53:12.984)
Has now become a part of you. That's the only way I can describe it. It has now become a part of a collective memory that that doesn't go anywhere.

Lisa Caughman (53:24.619)
That's right. They actually School Nutrition Association National that magazine interviewed me after that. And so I wanna give a shout out to them because they did bring attention to school food service employees and to the hurricane and my Ken, my communications director was involved in that. And I'm, you know, there's so many people. You're right, Katie, my assistant, who is now the director of of school nutrition for Bunkham County, learning through that hurricane and taking that and going, I'm still in. Because you know, if I'd been her, if I'm newbie, I might have run. So and and Adoranka certainly I I wrote down hurricane thinking because we've never had to have hurricane thinking, but we learned it really quickly. Really, really quickly. And you're right, we will never ever forget it. And we just we will never forget it. And I we just hear the word and and we cringe. And and for a long time even now, even now when we have heavy rains, people still are fearful.

Aderonke (54:19.588)
Mm-hmm.

Lisa Caughman (54:32.149)
People are fearful of heavy rains. And we've had some pretty heavy rainstorms recently. And they're like, there's flooding here. And it, but it's nowhere near the level that we saw. You know, it's very, we're tiptoeing around for sure. And when we when I drive home, I have a beautiful view of Elk Mountain Sea and a Highway and a rock called Buzzard Rock. And before you could not see it. And we we before we had no sunshine. Now we have sunshine. Our trees are down. But you can now you can see the little trees that are growing going, okay, thank you. I get sun now. Thank you. So I'll be back in the woods soon. So you do see resilience and joy.

Aderonke (55:09.694)
Mm-hmm. Thank you. In indeed, thank you, thank you, thank you. How might sharing your experiences of success and growth create a positive ripple effect in your family, community, the world?

Lisa Caughman (55:29.739)
I think that I'm very human. I think that I have things in my past I look back and go, God, that was so stupid of you. Gosh, you were stupid. Gosh, you little young punk. You made some bad decisions. I think that if people were to look at me in my experience, they would go, you know what, we can overcome anything. We can overcome anything. We can overcome childhood adversity. I score high on the ACES test, which says my life's going to be shortened. And I'm going to say, no, it is not. It is not going to be shortened because of my past experiences. It's going to be enriched because of my past experiences. It's going to teach me to forgive. It's going to teach me how to love unconditionally. And it's going to teach me how to make really good lemonade. So I think when we share our stories honestly, we give people permission to share their stories and to tell their truths. From we look at family dynamics, which are not perfect often. And and you you said it well earlier when you have your neighbors and you've put petty differences aside. And you become one, we need to do that more often. And we don't need a hurricane or a cancer diagnosis or adversity to follow that. Unfortunately, it's easier said than done. So I I I I need to probably do that better myself. I I want people to understand that joy is not frivolous, it is something we all deserve. Laughter, play, and joy can help heal, whether it's cancer, healing from a hurricane, getting together with the people that you are trauma bonded with, whether it's cancer, hurricane, neurodivergent, and and taking what you have in common and becoming one.

Lisa Caughman (57:44.277)
To walk the journey with, I think it's very important. And you kind of expand that and ripple out into the community, into the world. And I truly, truly believe that. And I try my best to live that, to walk what I'm talking. I'm not saying that I don't have bad days. I'm not saying that I don't have a shadow side. I am extremely human. But the more you grow in positivity, the less that shadow side gets to come out and play. You integrate it into your life and and go, you know what? It's okay if you're sitting on my shoulder going, you're not going back to imposter syndrome. What what are you talking, sister? I'm walking that talk so I can talk it.

Aderonke (58:27.508)
Mm. Lisa, what exciting opportunities do you see on the horizon? How do these opportunities align with your passions and aspirations?

Lisa Caughman (58:40.356)
I tell you what, I don't This could grow so big that I'm like, my gosh, it's growing so big. I think that this is a global movement. I really do this learning to play. And with using Express, play, integrate, carry forward and with this positive psychology informed, which is positivity, engagement, relationships, meaning and vitality, and just Taking what we know, moving forward to influence others, to you know, what do I see in the future? I see going to Gross Global Happiness Summit in 2027 and seeing my friends and being excited about expanding what I offered last year was simply let us play. And when I got there, I'm like, you know what? I might not have been ready for this, but. I learned what I needed to learn to grow and expand and to make a difference. So it was so worthwhile. So for anybody listening, look at Gross Global Happiness Summit 2027. I would like to see my book. I would like to see my lettuce playbook, Thriving with and Beyond Cancer Influence. Others to learn how to play and find joy. I'm so excited that Messino Cancer hospitals Laura McWilliams met with her two weeks ago. She wants to take this opportunity to Messino patients and I'm going to do that and I want to take it to Smoky Shadows with another retreat and another offering I have. I have other positive psychology practitioner friends. I also have my daughter who has her degree in outdoor education and ecology and education. And she's lives out of the country. So we we have passport wheel travel is what I always say. So we are

Lisa Caughman (01:00:41.78)
The philosophy is not bound to Western North Carolina. It's just where I am. It's a flagship and I'm where I'm watching it grow and expand. But if someone wanted to host a retreat, they're welcome to reach out to me. And we would try to make that happen because it is all positive psychology and epic based. I'm going to Charlotte to do two days retreat for survivors and thrivers of cancer. In August, I have my September retreat. I would love to do I would love to do one a month. I'd love to. Absolutely love to. Really, really would. Does that answer your question?

Aderonke (01:01:15.16)
Mm, mm.

Aderonke (01:01:21.1)
It does. It absolutely does. And my next question for you, Lisa, what brings you joy?

Lisa Caughman (01:01:29.172)
This talking with you right now, seeing that beautiful smile, that beautiful smile. Y'all have got to go online and look at Aderonke's beautiful smile. Making a difference and watching somebody that says, I'm down in the dumps. It just happened the other night on a Zoom call. I don't feel like I have any hope. An hour later, a person had hope, and a person felt like they could move forward. And changed their mindset from a fixed mindset to a growth mindset, and the next day sent me an email after I had sent some resources. That's a small thing. That's a small thing. Just giving someone a resource that they said this was really helpful. Again, I said I wasn't coaching somebody because I'm not really I can't call myself a coach because I don't stop talking long enough to listen 90% of the time, and that's a fact. So I s I I I'm trying. I'm working on that. I really am. But giving meeting people where they are and watching the light bulb come on and you can see it in their eyes. The light bulb comes on, the spark of joy comes back, and people believe that they can do it. They can do it. They can overcome it. They can do it. They can do it.

Aderonke (01:02:50.636)
Would you agree that changing your outlook, having a positive outlook, being able to incorporate joy and happiness can change the direction of somebody's healing journey for the better?

Lisa Caughman (01:03:09.53)
Absolutely, absolutely, absolutely. I am waiting for feedback from a dissertation that I submitted on June 9th, which was my mother's birthday, that the University of Metaphysical Science, which would be consciousness, a high-level consciousness, spirituality, and healing is what it's all about. It is on this let us play philosophy. And it is taking a lot of research from scholars and validating my mission and purpose. And to say yes, absolutely, learning to play is a huge part of the healing journey. Many Dr. Stuart Brown, Martin, Dr. Martin Seligman, Amelia Givestis Gaia. Many, many other authors, the Broaden and Build Theory from Dr. Barbara Frederickson from the University of North Carolina support this theory. So it is evidence based. And I certainly cannot take credit for it, but I can take credit for advocating for it right now and for really researching it and studying and looking at the data and the evidence base of what an important part of healing, laughter, joy, and play. Truly, truly is.

Aderonke (01:04:42.284)
Lisa, we're coming to the end of our conversation and I'd like to know about your book recommendation or recommendations. Is there a book that you've read recently or something that has stayed with you over the years?

Lisa Caughman (01:05:02.322)
Well first I have to plug the Flourishing Center, How We Flourish, Volume 2, my chapter, chapter 4, which coincidentally, and I love these numbers, quite coincidentally is page 54 of volume two, which was the age I was when I was diagnosed with stage four colon cancer. I don't believe in coincidences, so there's something there. That is a book that I would recommend. I also it kind of depends on the genre that you are interested in, to readers out there. I just finished David Brooks, The Second Mountain, and that was absolutely beautiful, especially part one and part three. Part one was about people who have. Adversity or overcome an obstacle. And in my case, of course, I'm referencing the cancer diagnosis in 2016. How that changes your life so dramatically that you go down a different path. Because who knew that today, on the anniversary of my surgery, I'd be talking to somebody who I've gotten very fond of and and look forward to seeing in Costa Rica so we can sing again. How dramatically this has changed my life and made me a better, stronger, more intentional human. Okay, so that's that's of a long answer for that. And then so the second, the second mountain is really good. There was a book that I recently read that your body keeps core, but I'm not saying I'm saying if you read that, have your therapist on speed dial because it's a very heavy book. It's a very hard book to read. But in the end, it is Frankl's the body keeps score, it is intense. And and for anyone that has had trauma in their life, it will let you know that. I know that, that your body can can make you sick.

Lisa Caughman (01:07:12.414)
Your body can make you sick. Your body keeps score what has happened to you. And again, have your therapist on speed dial, but I did just recently read that and I actually had my brother read that. And he did not have his therapist on speed dial, but he did say it was life-changing for him to read that. And Frankl does a really nice job at the end pointing out some things that you need to do to learn to play. And then my the woman that I reached out, Andrea Seidel, about being the editor, editing my upcoming book, Let Us Play Thriving with and Beyond Cancer. She and O'Brien wrote a book about play, and that's a fun book because that's play and joy, back to the reference that you mentioned earlier at Aderonke about play is let's just play. So not as serious. And of a subject matter are not as serious because they know how to play. And I am so envious of people that know how to play that I want to be like them when I grow up. They're my role models, people that know how to play.

Aderonke (01:08:09.474)
Mm-hmm.

Aderonke (01:08:19.01)
Lisa. Is there anything else? Do you have any final thoughts?

Lisa Caughman (01:08:23.878)
No, I don't. I just want to thank you so much for letting me talk about this. This is my passion project. It is my calling, it is what I'm supposed to be doing right now. And I am a fortunate, blessed woman that all of LeeLee's life lessons have brought me here today. So thank you for having me. What a gift.

Aderonke (01:08:47.714)
Indeed, I appreciate I truly appreciate you taking the time today and some of the appreciation nuggets that I'm taking from our conversation is you are making a difference in people's lives by giving and sharing hope. Your your view is play. It just play. It doesn't It doesn't have to be tidy, it doesn't have to be neat. The the joy is in play and that ultimately leads to health.

Aderonke (01:09:30.71)
You also said joy is not frivolous and you said this I believe several times. Laughter, play, joy are healing.

Lisa Caughman (01:09:43.102)
They are healing. They are healing and everybody deserves that. Everybody deserves that. Everybody is worthy of a lighter, lighter life. Yeah.

Aderonke (01:09:53.742)
Hm. And you also shared your story of the devastation that took place during Hurricane Helene in your community. But you also shared how you were able to leave your home and go and help others. First of all checking on neighbors, but also making sure that those that you could touch were were fed.

Aderonke (01:10:26.24)
Lisa Caughman, I appreciate you taking the time to join me today on ABWilson's Heart of the Matter, a podcast dedicated to asking overwhelmingly positive questions as we uncover incredible stories and wisdom of people you may know. Thank you so much.

Lisa Caughman (01:10:46.622)
Thank you.