We All Thought Authenticity Was The Whole Game. Turns Out It's Just Confidence.

Most creator marketing advice is about going viral, but real impact comes from how brands and creators actually work together.

In this episode of Stop the Scroll, Roo Yeshpaul Johnson, Head of Creator Marketing at Figma, and I are talking about what’s shaping the creator economy right now — from the myth of unlimited brand budgets to why “great creator partnerships” often come down to something much less glamorous: reliability, negotiation, and whether the math still works.

We also get into the tension no one wants to say out loud: creators are getting more expensive, brands are getting more selective, and long-term partnerships are not as guaranteed as the internet makes them sound.

And underneath all of it is a bigger question — if everyone is a creator now, what actually makes someone worth paying attention to?

Highlights:

(00:00) Introduction
(01:18) Meet Roo Yeshpaul Johnson
(03:41) Why Marketers Still Need a Seat in the Room
(07:14) What Creator Activations Look Like Without Marketers
(08:48) The Myth of Unlimited Creator Budgets
(15:30) What Makes a Creator Easy to Work With
(19:45) The Coming Tiered Creator Economy
(25:17) What Will Feel Weird About Creator Culture Soon
(27:42) Rise of the Practitioner Creator
(30:10) Why Creator-Brand Relationships Break or Scale
(32:23) What Every Marketer Should Know

Resources:

Hear more from me in the Stop the Scroll Newsletter: https://briannadoe.substack.com/
Connect on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/brianna-doe/ 

Roo’s LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/rooyj
Figma LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/figma
Figma Website: https://www.figma.com/ 

Transcript

Roo Yeshpaul Johnson (00:00):

Creators are getting more and more expensive every day. And if all of you guys are quoting us 70K, 80K, even 50K, whatever it is, then we can only have one or two or three depending on the budget for whatever campaign it is. And then we have to justify that again and again. If the results aren't justifying the cost, then we can't partner with more creators down the line. That budget is not going to get approved long term. So it's only hurting the industry down the line. So we have to think about all these things and I'm not saying anyone should say, okay, I'm going to slash my prices because of that.

Brianna Doe (00:30):

Hello, I'm Brianna Doe and this is Stop the Scroll. So let's get into the content that makes us stop, click and care. Okay. I am doing my best not to completely fan girl and nerd out, which I candidate before we hopped on and started recording. But I just feel so grateful and honored to have our guests today. Roo Yeshpaul Johnson, if you're not familiar with her, is an absolute icon in more ways than one. Most recently, she's the head of creator marketing at Figma, where she's building a creator program that really connects brand awareness to revenue in ways that B2B marketing hasn't seen before. And I was telling Roo before we started recording, for those who were listening to Stop the Scroll back in the day, a couple of years ago, it was all about influencer marketing. And I very intentionally made a shift away from that to focus on just the psychology of the internet as a whole.

(01:17):

And I really only wanted to have one person on this season to talk about the creator economy and I only wanted Roo. So thank you so much for joining me.

Roo Yeshpaul Johnson (01:26):

I'm literally fine going out just as much as you. So I'm just here really happy to be talking to you. Thanks,

Brianna Doe (01:33):

Sam. No, I love it. Of course. Well, let's just dive right in. I think first and foremost, can you just give us some context on what you're building, what your careers look like, all the fun stuff?

Roo Yeshpaul Johnson (01:42):

Yeah, definitely. I'll try and do the TLDR version. I want to raise in London. I've been in this marketing game for nearly 20 years now. I'm aging myself. When I started my career actually in television, I went to film school and worked at MTV and Endemol and did production for a while and then realized I think that I need something a bit more creative or where I have a bit more control. And I started working at a marketing agency and loved it. And so stayed in that realm social was just becoming more of a career form. This was 2011, 2012. So I went into the creative agency world, was at agencies for 13 years, moved to the state, still on the agency side and then started working at Adobe about, what is it, six years ago now. Still on social influencer obviously became such a bigger part of what we were doing over that time.

(02:31):

Was at Adobe for five years, leading lots of different teams on different products. And now I'm at Figma and I just love this space. Being in the tech world, B2B influencer marketing is just fascinating and really like a pet interest of mine. I feel very passionate about it, especially with us folks that are active on LinkedIn and know just how much that area is coming up and how much potential it has. So yeah, that's me. Now I'm all in on influencers. Social will always be close to my heart, but it's really cool to just be closer to the creator economy, quote unquote.

Brianna Doe (03:05):

I love the film school student to marketer pipeline. I also went to film school.

Roo Yeshpaul Johnson (03:09):

Oh, look at you.

Brianna Doe (03:10):

Yeah, I feel like it's just such a natural

Roo Yeshpaul Johnson (03:12):

Transition.

Brianna Doe (03:13):

I love

Roo Yeshpaul Johnson (03:14):

It. It is.

Brianna Doe (03:14):

After

Roo Yeshpaul Johnson (03:15):

We realized we'll make no money.

Brianna Doe (03:17):

With the starving artist's life is really not for me.

Roo Yeshpaul Johnson (03:20):

Right, exactly. And now I'm like, oh, thank God I made that transition.

Brianna Doe (03:25):

I know, for real. It was a good time to make a transition, for sure.

Roo Yeshpaul Johnson (03:28):

Yes, it

Brianna Doe (03:29):

Was. You said something interesting before we started recording actually how you're not a creator by trade. You're the person building the programs and that perspective is something you feel is often underrepresented in these kinds of conversations. What do you think is the differentiator between the creator and the person building the programs and why do you think it's so important to have both perspectives?

Roo Yeshpaul Johnson (03:49):

I think the lines are so much more blurred these days still, because for instance, even me, I started creating content on LinkedIn last year not to get brand deals. That's not my goal for LinkedIn. It's more just a visibility thing or just keeping relationships going, meeting more people. I've met so many amazing people through being more visible on LinkedIn and that's my strategy. But then a lot of us are practitioners and will create content. So especially if we're in this industry, of course there's people in other industries that have corporate roles that are creators, but it couldn't be more separate. And so I think this is a very niche conversation to what you and I do because that's where it kind of becomes very meta and it just touches each other so closely. And I think we still need to be in the room because who is there approving the budget?

(04:31):

Who's approving the campaigns? Who's advocating for influencers or creators to be part of anything that we do in marketing? And so if we're not there, yes, there could be so many amazing creators in the feed, but there aren't people internally knowing the potential of that, knowing how creators can be activated for marketing campaigns or advocating for it because how do you think those budgets happen? Somebody internally is saying, "This is a great idea. I'm pushing for this budget. It costs this much." The amount of legwork that goes into that, the amount of calculating the KPIs, telling them we need paid or whatever, that only happens because someone's there putting a strategy behind it. It doesn't just happen because there's great creators out there and they're doing their thing and they're visible. You need an expert to tell you why. And that's why the creative economy exists because of marketers like us.

(05:15):

So we can't all keep leaving to become creators guys, but be a creator too and do your thing too, but stay in the boardroom, please.

Brianna Doe (05:22):

Yeah, stay in the room. No, that's so true. I think it's really exciting when people make that transition to full-time creators, but also I am a little sad at how many marketers have become full-time creators. I think we need those voices, not just on the creator side, but also preaching to the choir.

Roo Yeshpaul Johnson (05:37):

Yeah, totally. Because they're all so talented. And I know it gets tricky and I think this is a question that I ask all the time and I said this on a panel I was on recently and I think it's something we haven't answered yet, but when it comes to policies or even being able to be a creator when you're at a company, it is hard. And I see why people leave because of course if you're making X amount of dollars being a creator and your company is saying, "I don't want you to post," no-brainer, you're going to say, "Okay, I'm going to go do this thing that fulfills me more." And then on the flip side, we're saying, "Oh, we want EGC. We want employees to make content. We want them to have a presence." If companies want any of their employee content to be seen, those people need to be active.

(06:14):

They can't just post every now and again with a company boilerplate post and it's going to do anything. So we need to solve for that on the corporate side and say, "Okay, are we going to have more leeway? Because if someone wants to create content, it needs to be worth it for them. And if they want to get brand deals, then we need to think about letting them do that or being very specific about certain competitors and then they can do it in a different way." And it gets hard when you're a marketer because there's only so many realms of this that we can be in until the competition starts to overlap. And we see it even when we're booking creators. That's

Brianna Doe (06:49):

A really good point too. And you said something interesting too about how some people like to think that these really creative, cool, elaborate creator activations just come together out of nowhere or just because there are talented creators participating in them. I could not agree with you more. I think the marketer's job is a little undervalued and really just forgotten or overlooked in that sense. Yeah. I'm curious, what do you think a creator activation would look like if a marketer wasn't involved?

Roo Yeshpaul Johnson (07:18):

Well, if a creator marketer wasn't, or even a social marketer being involved, it would be very- That's a good distinction. Because we've got integrated marketers, we have digital marketers, but they think in a very traditional way and just we're going over the three Ps, okay, we've got the product messaging, this is what's going out in our display, this is what's going out of home, et cetera. They're not thinking about what's going out on social until someone from the social teams comes and says, "Can you approve this or this is what we're going to be doing because they assume that somebody else's discipline, I don't cover that. Somebody else is going to do that. " And then same with creators, they wouldn't even think about it unless someone comes to them and says what it does for them and for their strategy. So it would just look like a very traditional marketing campaign that just lives in a ... Where would it live in a-

Brianna Doe (08:07):

In a blog post?

Roo Yeshpaul Johnson (08:08):

Magazine ad, blog post. I think it would not be very visible online, honestly. Even the agencies that they work with will be talking about some of that, but it would be very table stakes. It wouldn't be all this plus up stuff that we see on social. That only happens because of social marketers.

Brianna Doe (08:24):

I completely agree. And I think too, you alluded to this earlier, but I love the work I do. I love owning an agency and working with creators and with brands, but it is always interesting to see that gap in how they communicate. They're always optimizing. Both parties are always optimizing for what they want, what they need, which obviously makes perfect sense. But then you meet a creator who doesn't understand what the marketer is looking for, like what success actually looks like. The marketer's holding the money. The marketer doesn't understand what is motivating the creator outside of money. And so I think that issue is prevalent too. How do you deal with that?

Roo Yeshpaul Johnson (08:57):

Funnily enough, I was having this conversation too really recently because I think there's been the perpetuation of this myth online that brands have all this endless cash that just because they're a billion dollar brand, their marketing budget for influencers has to be a million plus and you should just give them your highest rate because they better say yes or they're disrespecting you. I understand. I think creators absolutely need to be paid their worth. We're not trying to take advantage of you any more than you're trying to take advantage of us. We're thinking very intentionally about the way we curate an experience for the brand partners, creators that we have. We want them to have a really good relationship with us and that's for any brand I'm sure, but the budgets are not exhaustive. A lot has to come out of that. Creators are getting more and more expensive every day.

(09:42):

And if all of you guys are quoting us 70K, 80K, even like 50K, whatever it is, then we can only have one or two or three depending on the budget for whatever campaign it is. And then we have to justify that again and again. If the results aren't justifying the cost, then we can't partner with more creators down the line. That budget is not going to get approved long term. So it's only hurting the industry down the line. So we have to think about all these things and I'm not saying anyone should say, okay, I'm going to slash my prices because of that. If you're getting paid by brands at a rate that you want and it's a rate that you're happy with and it's a big one, keep doing that. You're clearly doing something right. Certain brands are just not going to be able to match that.

Brianna Doe (10:20):

I'll get off my soapbox in a second too, but I just think you're bringing up some really good points. As a creator, I feel comfortable saying that I often meet creators who almost operate as if they expect each brand partnership to fund their life, but that's not how you would view a freelance gig. You would have multiple. And I think what I'm starting to realize and something you said made this quick too, when somebody transitions to a full-time creator, it's almost like the mindset shift doesn't happen from ... You no longer work a nine to five, so you're not just going to have one job. So this one brand isn't going to pay for everything that isn't quite happening. Yeah, I mean, I'm curious what you think too, especially on LinkedIn. I'm hearing a lot of complaints I'll say about how brands work with creators and one-off posts versus longer term partnerships.

(11:06):

But how do you approach that, not just at Figma, but as a mindset? Well,

Roo Yeshpaul Johnson (11:10):

I think another thing that we should realize is that brands are evaluating the partnership from start to end. Doesn't matter if your content was good. Okay, great. But we are looking at the whole symbiotic relationship. Did you go above and beyond? How did you communicate with our team? Were you reliable? Was this content executed really excellently? Because we're looking for creative excellence in a lot of ways. Is it as good as other stuff we've seen in your channel? Was it halfas? Because yes, we absolutely see if that ship was half fast. And then we're not going to partner with you again, or we're only really going to consider long-term partnership that's consistent and that is reliable over a long period of time where it feels worth that investment. Because I know there's a lot of talk about brands doing more long-term partnerships and that's it.

(11:54):

And this conversation has come up again and again over the years. It's not new that it's like, oh, long-term partnerships are the future. We've been saying that for the last five years. I don't think it's going to overwhelmingly become that way. I know because of exclusivity and things like that, there's more incentive for brands to do that, especially in the tech space. But personally, I don't know if it's worth it to cut ourselves off from new audiences or experimenting with new creators, stopping audiences, getting fatigued. There's a lot of benefit even from having one-off creators until you really find your solid, true folks that you think, "Yep, you're friendly that I'll keep coming back to. " And more often than not, it's just usually with repeat work. It's not likely going to be a year long contract. No brand really is going to want to lock in unless it's a very specific niche that they're in and it's very underserved.

(12:38):

They're not usually going to want to lock away dollars for a whole year with on creator. Definitely happens.

Brianna Doe (12:43):

It happens, but I would agree with you. I think too, as a creator, I don't know if I'd want to commit to one

(12:51):

Brand for you, especially if it's a new brand partner. Let's say we're like two years in, okay, even then maybe, I don't know, I might be getting bored, but another year or a year long partnership is a big commitment. Do you even know if you like working with the brand? Exactly. I sent a text to a friend and I were talking about this the other day, pulled up my phone to read it, but I said he was complaining about the one-off posts and how other creators are also complaining about the same thing. And he was also complaining about three month deals, which I was like, okay, first of all, that's a good amount of time. But I said, I think as creators, we sometimes need to chill, especially when it's brand's first campaign or first experience. I also think brands should address their expectations. Larger creators are sometimes less willing to do one-off posts, however, others aren't.

(13:38):

But I do think this is also largely a LinkedIn issue. Many Instagram and TikTok creators are fine with one-off posts. I think LinkedIn creators are a little

Roo Yeshpaul Johnson (13:46):

Annoying.

Brianna Doe (13:46):

Yes. And I also think, but there's so many butts in this. I also think brands doing LinkedIn influencer marketing need to adjust as well. A bunch of back-to-back one-off campaigns doesn't really help anyone anyway. I think it's more nuanced than people allow. And I don't know why it's such a black and white issue.

Roo Yeshpaul Johnson (14:02):

It's very interesting that LinkedIn is feeling that way about it. Yeah, because on TikTok and Instagram, that's literally the bread and butter. But also I think it could be a side effect of there not being enough choice on LinkedIn. You're just seeing a lot of this because there's so few creators that are going to execute a campaign the way a brand wants. It's very hard to find really good quality video content creators on LinkedIn and the video doesn't perform as well. So then brands still want to do text posts, which is fine, but then of course it's the same group over and over again, especially in certain industries.

Brianna Doe (14:32):

That's a really good point. Do you work with LinkedIn creators now or are you mostly on other channels? Which channels are you- It's

Roo Yeshpaul Johnson (14:38):

Mostly Instagram, definitely LinkedIn, YouTube, TikTok, all of the channels.

Brianna Doe (14:42):

Okay. All of them. Have you tested Pinterest at all?

Roo Yeshpaul Johnson (14:45):

No. Well, in the previous roles, yes, but more so to create assets that would go out on Pinterest. And that's not something that I'm doing right now, but it is an interesting space.

Brianna Doe (14:56):

I'm so intrigued by it. I'm dying to have a client who's interested in Pinterest influence marketing because I think it's just such an untapped space.

Roo Yeshpaul Johnson (15:03):

Yeah. Strategies there though. I

Brianna Doe (15:06):

Would

Roo Yeshpaul Johnson (15:06):

Not even pretend to know where to

Brianna Doe (15:08):

Start.

Roo Yeshpaul Johnson (15:09):

It's very good.

Brianna Doe (15:10):

It's like Reddit for me. I don't

Roo Yeshpaul Johnson (15:11):

Know. Exactly. Yeah, exactly. A whole other

Brianna Doe (15:14):

World. But I'm eager. It's fine. Yeah. You mentioned something earlier that I completely agree with and I just find interesting. When you're evaluating a partnership or when a brand is evaluating one, it's not just about was the content good, but also how easy or reliable was the person? How easy were they to communicate with? What do you think makes someone easy for brands to work with in a way that their audiences would never notice?

Roo Yeshpaul Johnson (15:36):

That's a really good question. I think and it could apply to them directly or their team because a lot of people have teams that they're working with, so make sure you talk to them as well. But I think it's treating whoever's communicating with us on the brand side, treating them like a client. We are engaging you as we are the client that we're paying you for this work. So do think about it as if you are providing a service. It's not just because you have an audience and you're a creator and you're the face of this that we need to bend to every will of a creator. We have certain KPIs that we're trying to get to. We will have a brief and messaging that we want you to put your best foot forward to turn into something in your own voice, but still give that message and understanding why we have those requirements.

(16:16):

Because at the end of the day, this is marketing. We don't just want a video that looks nice to go out with nothing, no value in it on our side. We have stakeholders that we have to send this stuff back to and tell them why it was worth us spending X amount of dollars on this and what it delivered for us. We have to trace it back to the bottom line and that's the job that has to be done on the brand side. And the person you're talking to on the brand side isn't necessarily the one making those decisions. They're the one that has the wallet maybe and the strategy, but it's someone in leadership or a stakeholder that's telling them, "This is what I expect from this and this is the goals it needs to hit." So we're all just trying to get to what success looks like and the creator is our vehicle to help us do that.

(16:57):

But we see you like, not like an agency, but almost like we are the client and we're engaging you for your creative services. That's almost what it is. You're a vendor.

Brianna Doe (17:05):

Yeah, that's true. And when you think about even how creators are paid out, it's typically considered a vendor. So I think that's a perfect example. Roo and I will be starting a support group for creator marketers, by the way.

Roo Yeshpaul Johnson (17:18):

They realize there's so much, so much that

Brianna Doe (17:21):

Goes on. Due to busy schedules, we'll meet once a year, but-

Roo Yeshpaul Johnson (17:24):

Right. And it may be rescheduled.

Brianna Doe (17:26):

Twice, maybe three times, but join us. I'm curious too, this question's kind of out of left field, but so many, I don't know the exact percentage, but there is an astronomical rise in young adults wanting to become creators. It's something, I don't remember the number, but I remember there was this survey done with middle school students and it was something like 70%. So they wanted to be full-time content creators, something like that. Nobody quote me on that, but it was very high. And I'm curious what you think about how that will impact the creator economy. Do you think it's a good thing, bad thing?

Roo Yeshpaul Johnson (18:02):

I want to dig into this. I have a funny thing similar to what you just said though, and I've told this story before, but my son, he was in kindergarten last year and you know when they do the graduation, they get the kids to say what they want to be. So many of those kids were like, "I want to be a YouTuber." What?

Brianna Doe (18:16):

Kindergarten?

Roo Yeshpaul Johnson (18:19):

In kindergarten, five and six year olds. I was flawed, but I went to speak to my son's class about marketing and they all knew who Mr. Beast was immediately.

Brianna Doe (18:28):

What?

Roo Yeshpaul Johnson (18:30):

Prime or whatever it was and they Mr. Beast. Six and seven year olds now he's in first grade. Insane. They know what marketing is. They know what an ad looks like. I showed them a YouTube pre-roll ad. They knew what that was.

Brianna Doe (18:42):

That's fascinating.

Roo Yeshpaul Johnson (18:43):

Isn't it? Yeah, because they're born into it. Marketing is so pervasive that they just see it everywhere. They know what an ad looks like on the TV if they're watching. I mean, YouTube keeps coming up because kids love them from YouTube, but for better or worse,

Brianna Doe (18:56):

But

Roo Yeshpaul Johnson (18:57):

They know they know what a billboard is. They've all seen that I showed them different types of ads and they all identified them correctly. But back to your question, I think if we want the creator economy to continue, this is how it needs to go because if we wanted to keep being this billion dollar industry, we just need more creators. But I think then the way we engage it is going to be different. Already it's becoming very much this mass market thing. UGC has become not so UGC, it's become micro creators now. It's people that want an audience. They're not just creating content so you can use it for an ad. They want an audience, but that means, and that's why we see so many brands just filling the feed and they have agencies they work with to get hundreds of pieces of content out into the feed every month and that's because there's so many creators now to choose from in a way.

(19:45):

And then I think it's going to become even more exclusive for these bigger brand deals and these bespoke packages that we put together, that's going to become a higher bar to entry, in my opinion, because it's going to be more expensive. Everybody at that level is going to put their prices up to compete in a way or to differentiate themselves from the masses of creators and it's going to create this different tiered system that's more niche than it is right now.

Brianna Doe (20:11):

Okay. That's fascinating. And you're making me think of I was doing some research for an AI influencer article I wrote for the Stop the Scroll newsletter and I was looking into the stats around people's perception of AI and AI generated content. And it was something like 54% of people see this rise in AI as a problem. Their perception or sentiment around AI is deteriorating. However, 58% of Americans as of I think 2025 followed at least one virtual influencer. So whether they knew it or not.

Roo Yeshpaul Johnson (20:46):

Whoa.

Brianna Doe (20:47):

Yes. And knew it or

Roo Yeshpaul Johnson (20:49):

Not is key, right? Half of the brand did

Brianna Doe (20:50):

Not know. Well, even for the ones that do, I did a lot of research into Lil Miquela, if you're familiar with her. And all of these folks that are popping up who just look more memorialistic, I'm curious how you think that fits in. So we have so many creators joining the space, so many brands then activating more and more creators and then AI generated influencers or virtual models in there as well.

Roo Yeshpaul Johnson (21:12):

I'm interested to see if the people running those accounts are ever actually going to make money from brands. And I think it's going to be particular type of brands that are okay partnering with them. Because for instance, any of the brands I've worked for, that would be a complete no. You do the research to find out if, and I think we're going to have to add in layers of checkpoints for things like that as that becomes more common because it's almost like when you do a background check, it's going to become part of that. I can't see a world where many of the, especially creative brands or certain tech brands would want to partner with an AI generated influencer unless it was created by a tool that they have that they create. It's one of their products. But there's just so many ethical things around that go into this same conversation that we're all having and trying to be the good guy in.

Brianna Doe (21:59):

Yeah. Well, I will say, Lil Michaela, I did not know this. I don't know if you knew this. She's partnered with Prada.

Roo Yeshpaul Johnson (22:06):

No way. Oh, see fashion brands, that will

Brianna Doe (22:08):

Be- Fashion brands are going to be- Yes, that makes

Roo Yeshpaul Johnson (22:09):

Complete sense.

Brianna Doe (22:11):

In it. And Calvin Klein even did a campaign with her where she kissed Bella Hadid, which I don't really understand how they did that.

Roo Yeshpaul Johnson (22:17):

Interesting.

Brianna Doe (22:17):

And AI, but that was a whole thing. People weren't mad that they use ... The overwhelming majority weren't mad that they used ... Well, Lil Miquela, they were upset about the queer baiting, but the backlash was not around her being virtual. So I thought that was interesting. So we're definitely seeing it with fashion brands. And then I hadn't heard about this until I started researching, but Emily Hart, did you hear about this?

Roo Yeshpaul Johnson (22:42):

No. Tell

Brianna Doe (22:43):

Me. On Instagram. So to your point about how they're going to make money and what brands will work with them, there was this nurse somewhere in America named Emily Hart who would post thirst traps and had really polarizing political beliefs, we'll put it that way. And she was raking in tens of thousands of followers, millions of views on her reels, making thousands of dollars per month primarily through FanView, subscriptions and merchandise. And come to find out, Emily was created by Di, a medical student in India named Sam. Oh,

Roo Yeshpaul Johnson (23:18):

Do you know what? I did see

Brianna Doe (23:19):

That. Do you remember

Roo Yeshpaul Johnson (23:19):

This? A medical student, yes. But yes, okay. But so I'm thinking of it in a very niche way because obviously the industry I come from, the way that I engage creators, but no, you're completely right. Of course, they'll make money from the platforms. Yeah.

Brianna Doe (23:31):

Right. But you make a good point too. I don't know, to your point, how many tech companies are intentionally going to decide, "Hey, we're going to risk our brand in this way." I think for the AI generated influencer thing to continue, it's going to have to be mainly through ... Yeah, I would say primarily through subscriptions and merch, unless somehow you create that. Unless they crack down on that. Unless they crack down. Or what you

Roo Yeshpaul Johnson (23:54):

Said. Yeah.

Brianna Doe (23:54):

Because nobody's cracking down Lil Miquela. I know keep throwing that name out there, but I'm just

Roo Yeshpaul Johnson (23:57):

Pumpingcasting. But she's one of the most popular ones though. I feel like if anybody's going to know one, it'll be her. But I know even real people are creating AI versions of themselves to be the influent or be the face of their brand too and that's becoming more popular. So it's such an interesting ... And this is why even next year, this is all going to change. It's moving so fast now. We've never seen this rate of change before. The way that we were like, "Oh, five years ago it was this. " Because you think about what we can get out of even Claude now compared to December last year three, four, what is it? Five months difference insane. We can't even fathom what things are going to look like in September in my opinion.

Brianna Doe (24:32):

That's a really good point. And you make a good point too with the folks that are making AI versions of themselves. Is that something that you could see tech brands working with?

Roo Yeshpaul Johnson (24:40):

I don't know. It's a very tricky space for tech right now, especially if they're brands that also use AI in some of their products. It's very much like if brands are going to do anything with AI, it's going to be their proprietary version of it that if they're going to have anybody using, it's not going to be, I doubt anyway. I'm not a fortune teller, but I don't see any of big tech names partnering with an AI generated influencer unless it helps their product.

Brianna Doe (25:12):

That makes perfect sense. So you mentioned, which I agree with, things look so different five years ago. What do you think is something about modern creator culture that feels normal now but will probably look bizarre or weird in five years or even a year?

Roo Yeshpaul Johnson (25:24):

I think it's very much to what we were talking about, but the whole slew of creators literally making all their content around telling other people how to be a creator "This is how much I earn in a month you should do this too." Or like, "This is why I got started." And it's very encouraging and it's very empowering and it's like almost like the new version of LLM instead of, "Oh, I made this much selling Herbalife, you should do it too." It's like, "I made this much making videos of my day. You totally should do it too." So I think it's that and it's a certain demographic that I see it with anyway because of course a lot of parents or moms specifically that are home with their kids want other ways to make money. And then of course that group is going to pick up on things like this just like they do with other ways of making money from home.

(26:07):

You've seen it Avon, Mary Kay, all the things and I don't hate that for them. Empower, make money, do your thing, girl. I love seeing somebody cleaning their kitchen or your household routine. I'm all for it. I have three kids. I love sharing that too. We all need to see how we make it work, but I do think it's going to feel very different in a year when we look back on us sharing how much we were making or even the brand deals. I think brands aren't going to like creators sharing that as much because it makes it seem too transactional and it takes away from this veil of authenticity that we all want that we know is not real, but we want it.

Brianna Doe (26:42):

That's a good point though. That's a very good point. And I think even if we compare it, like going back to that nine to five example, like when you leave your nine to five, becoming a full-time creator, companies also, most of them don't love when you share your salary. And so it could be like a negotiation thing too. Well, if you keep sharing, as long as you're not like a financial services org where you have to disclose that kind of thing. If you're sharing how much you're making and they know that we're a long-term partner of yours, you might be messing with

Roo Yeshpaul Johnson (27:09):

Each negotiation. Exactly. Because I think a lot of brands are very good about pay parity and trying to make it equitable across the board, but then some aren't if they can't afford to be or if negotiations are different because everybody negotiates differently. So I do think that might be a motivating for them.

Brianna Doe (27:24):

Interesting. And you did mention earlier too, you've obviously dropped so many nuggets of wisdom. You mentioned earlier, as we see this rise in more creators across different niches, how there are going to be some or like a group that have to distinguish themselves kind of above the rest to avoid this race to the middle. Is there a type of creator that you think is going to become way more important over the next few years?

Roo Yeshpaul Johnson (27:47):

From where I'm sitting now, I think it's the practitioner creator, ironically, because that's how we started talking about this saying, "Don't leave your pay job to become a creator." But I think that's going to be the superpower that you have a day job. I think especially again, I'm coming from a very certain industry. Obviously I work in tech, that's where I've been for the last very many years. So that's the lens that I see it through. But I think for companies like that, we do want people that have a perspective but also expertise to back it up and they have cloud because you can see they have a nine to five. They are employed by someone and that gives them current expertise that is still relevant because if you left the workplace however many years ago, what you're telling me isn't necessarily relevant to today because it moves so quickly to the other point we were making and especially on LinkedIn.

(28:33):

LinkedIn is, we all know this. It's so grown so fast. I think that's such an opportunity area for so much of us, so many of us I should say, but if you have a role and you create content about what you do in your day job every day, that's really, really, really valuable.

Brianna Doe (28:50):

I agree. And I think to your point, it's about staying relevant, like staying up to date in the space and also being able to kind of keep your credibility, which is the same thing essentially. Do you think audiences are getting harder to impress in that regard or harder to hold onto because there's so many creators?

Roo Yeshpaul Johnson (29:05):

Harder to hold onto. I think actually they've never been easier to impress because they know exactly what they want. So if you're giving them what they want, you're going to get people because I feel like people know where they want to spend their time, even if that is scrolling through TikTok for three hours, they're making a very intentional choice to do that. Yes, we know obviously the doom scrolling sometimes feels like it's not a choice, but it feels better for us to do that than something else. So we are making that choice. And just like in the first one second of something, if you're going to like that video or not and you're going to scroll away, it could be someone's tone, it could just be the color of the background, whatever it is. Same with YouTube. And so I think people are learning the taste all the time because of how quick content comes to them and so they're getting a crash course in what their brain is saying yes and no to.

(29:47):

And again, that's helpful because if you hit that note with them, you've got a viewer and they're going to probably follow you or they're going to stay with you. But keeping them long-term, if you don't keep giving that to them in the way that they want it, they've got one. So I think it's the attention, long-term attention is harder and more valuable.

Brianna Doe (30:06):

Well, I think that we've come full circle back to what you were saying at the beginning about how when creators want to charge whatever they want to charge, that's also limiting how brands can allocate spend, which is limiting the new creators we can work with, the different activations in order to keep audiences as a brand in the creator space or the creator economy that requires innovation, requires good taste. And so you're also going to start, what I'm hearing is you're going to start setting your audience up to expect a certain caliber or quality or type of content from you or all three. And if you ever deviate from that or deteriorate, then unfortunately I fear you've lost them.

Roo Yeshpaul Johnson (30:43):

Yeah. I don't think that necessarily means we need to niche down all the time. I am totally an advocate for we're all multifaceted. I can enjoy several different things from a creator, but if I've come to expect a certain style from you or quality from you or even just like a type of voiceover, I'm staying with you for that. I don't care what you're creating content about. If I enjoy you as a person and something about you is magnetizing to me, I'm going to keep the attention. You want to talk about what you packed in your lunch? Great. I'm here for it. And I think we're getting less bothered about it being all about the same thing. I think we want that variety, but we have to like people. But then I think it comes back to this authenticity thing and I don't think authenticity is like an act.

(31:22):

I think it's confidence. It's like if someone's confident and they know who they are, they could probably talk about anything, but you're going to want to listen to them because they are just effortlessly being themselves and it's very attractive. If someone's performing authenticity, you can turn immediately.

Brianna Doe (31:36):

You can always tell and it's never authentic. It's just really easy. It's almost like Uncandy Valley. We know something in our brain just clicks. We recognize it. Exactly

Roo Yeshpaul Johnson (31:46):

That. Yeah. The Uncanny Valley bit's scary as hell. Isn't it so

Brianna Doe (31:51):

Freaky? It freaks me out so much. Have you heard that sidebar, have you heard that theory that this is an evolutionary element like we evolved in this way because there was something in the past that required us to have that. Oh

Roo Yeshpaul Johnson (32:03):

My God, stop it. I'm not going to deep dive on. I must send me the information.

Brianna Doe (32:07):

It freaks me out. I'll find the article I found. Oh

Roo Yeshpaul Johnson (32:11):

Wow. I can believe that way.

Brianna Doe (32:13):

It makes sense, right? Because otherwise, what are we picking up on? I don't know.

Roo Yeshpaul Johnson (32:17):

Oh my God. That's my reading for the next couple days. Brianna.

Brianna Doe (32:22):

Hey, anytime. Okay. So as we wrap up, is there one thing that you wish creators would know and marketers would know?

Roo Yeshpaul Johnson (32:30):

Oh my gosh. We need each other. We are in a very symbiotic relationship. Without one, there is not the other in my opinion. Literally this thing grows because marketers are advocating for it and then it does well because creators are passionate and really good at it and it just keeps going in a cycle. And it's a really great cycle. We're doing amazing things together and I think it's totally the future of marketing and it only keep going that way if we both realize how important both sides are and we know what each side is fighting for.

Brianna Doe (33:01):

Couldn't agree more. And final question I have to ask as a film school graduate. I'm not going to ask what your favorite movie is, but what is one movie that you think everybody should watch?

Roo Yeshpaul Johnson (33:12):

Okay. So I'll tell you about me at film school. I am obsessed with television. I wanted to be a sitcom director. And so it wasn't film that took me to film quote unquote film school. It was to learn how to do TV. But that's amazing. But I went to what was popular in London was reality television and that's what I ended up working in for years. I was like, I can't get into sitcoms. Absolutely not. Micah room was not there in London. It wasn't. Issa Ray needed to come save me, girl. She

Brianna Doe (33:38):

Really did.

Roo Yeshpaul Johnson (33:39):

Television shows that everyone should watch. Oh my gosh. And that I can ... Oh, there's too many. There's two tutors.

Brianna Doe (33:45):

I'm going to make a list.

Roo Yeshpaul Johnson (33:46):

Well, my favorite TV shows growing up and I'll tell you that that's like a easy one. Molysha, 100% on Brandy Stan. It worked out my whole childhood. And all the classics. Sister, sister, that's what Raven. What else did we love?

Brianna Doe (34:01):

I thought Moisha was the coolest. I wanted to be her.

Roo Yeshpaul Johnson (34:04):

Although have you watched it as an adult?

Brianna Doe (34:07):

No.

Roo Yeshpaul Johnson (34:08):

Oh, she's hard to walk. She's hard. Oh my God. She's insufferable. I loved her so much. Now I go back and I'm like, Lelicia, girl, you hate her. She's really long.

Brianna Doe (34:18):

Was

Roo Yeshpaul Johnson (34:18):

She messy? Very messy. Very just wrong and strong all the time. Teenagers because we're all old now. We're going back and be like, "Girl, you're a child. Please

Brianna Doe (34:29):

Don't." You were a mess. Yeah. No, that's a good point.That's like young more girls. I rewatch that all the time and I'm like, Rory is a nightmare.

Roo Yeshpaul Johnson (34:36):

Yes.

Brianna Doe (34:36):

Absolutely.

Roo Yeshpaul Johnson (34:37):

But I just watched, if anybody wants a good recommendation, I just watch Imperfect Women. So good. I just watched

Brianna Doe (34:43):

All of that.

Roo Yeshpaul Johnson (34:44):

Very much recommend.

Brianna Doe (34:46):

Imperfect Women was incredible. If you liked that, have you seen All Her Fault?

Roo Yeshpaul Johnson (34:51):

Yes. I really liked that. That was very good. I love a drama.

Brianna Doe (34:55):

Love all the dramas. I love a drama. A drama and psychological thriller. Those are my TV shows.

Roo Yeshpaul Johnson (35:00):

Yeah. I need to

Brianna Doe (35:01):

Get recommendations

Roo Yeshpaul Johnson (35:02):

From you because I'm always running out of things to watch. I just binge everything and I'm like, okay, what's next?

Brianna Doe (35:07):

Okay. So fun fact, I've been trying to get better with vibe coding all of that. And so I made a film tracking platform for myself where I can rate movies, rank them and have it start to analyze myself as a viewer. And now I'm creating a TV show one. I'm going to share it with you.

Roo Yeshpaul Johnson (35:21):

Yes, please send it share with me. And okay, movie recommendation. Everybody watch Love Jones. That's one of my favorite

Brianna Doe (35:26):

Movies. I've never seen that.

Roo Yeshpaul Johnson (35:29):

Oh my God. Oh my God. Okay. I'll

Brianna Doe (35:32):

Watch it tonight.

Roo Yeshpaul Johnson (35:33):

Yes.

Brianna Doe (35:33):

Yeah. I'm going to watch you today.

Roo Yeshpaul Johnson (35:34):

For a movie. If you have it or-

Brianna Doe (35:38):

Probably one of them is probably Whiplash.

Roo Yeshpaul Johnson (35:41):

See, I haven't seen that.

Brianna Doe (35:43):

Okay.

Roo Yeshpaul Johnson (35:44):

Okay. There we go.

Brianna Doe (35:45):

You want to watch that?

Roo Yeshpaul Johnson (35:46):

Yeah.

Brianna Doe (35:46):

Join homework. I will report back with Love Jones feedback.

Roo Yeshpaul Johnson (35:50):

Nice.

Brianna Doe (35:50):

Okay. So thank you so much for joining today. Where do people find you?

Roo Yeshpaul Johnson (35:55):

Audio on LinkedIn, Roo Yeshpaul Johnson, or on Instagram I'm @RoohiAmber, R-O-O-H-I, Amber, A- M-B-E-R. Fellow for content on being a working mom on leadership on creator economy stuff, just lots of interesting perspectives of things. I'd love to chat. I love having conversations in the comments.

Brianna Doe (36:16):

Yeah. If you're not following Roo, I highly recommend it. I thoroughly enjoy your content, all of it. I think it's the best.

Roo Yeshpaul Johnson (36:23):

I

Brianna Doe (36:23):

Just

Roo Yeshpaul Johnson (36:23):

Can't believe people are watching it. Every time I put something out to work like, "I watched your video." I'm like, "Oh God." You're

Brianna Doe (36:28):

Like, "What?" What video?

Roo Yeshpaul Johnson (36:30):

Right.

Brianna Doe (36:31):

No, it's great. It's all great. Well, thank you so much for joining me. I really appreciate it. This was wonderful. Keep

Roo Yeshpaul Johnson (36:36):

Having me. This was so fun. Of

Brianna Doe (36:38):

Course. And if you enjoy this episode, hit subscribe wherever you get your podcasts and for more on what's shaping the definition and demand around the content we consume, sign up for my newsletter, link in the show notes and I'll see you in the feed.