Ep 117 "You’ve Loved Sci-Fi ALL ALONG!" Intro to Science Fiction and Red Rising Deep Dive Series!

What the heck is science fiction and how is it different (or suspiciously similar 🤔) to fantasy? We’re here to tell you! On today’s episode we’ll be setting the scene for our newest bonus series covering Red Rising by Pierce Brown, starting this Friday with our deep dive into book one!

We’ve covered dystopian themes with our exploration of The Hunger Games universe by Suzanne Collins, then moved on to ask the question: “Are books political?” with our deep dive coverage of everything Wicked by Gregory Maguire. So now, building from those two very important contributions to the canon, we decided to take the plunge into this world of science fiction with the series you’ve all been begging us to cover since the beginning: Red Rising.

But, we were apprehensive. The story begins centered around a sixteen year old boy, which as women nearing forty we were skeptical of. The books are written by a man and presumably through and for the male gaze. And… do we even like sci-fi? As lovers of all things magical and fantastical, is fiction based in science actually something we’ll enjoy, or even understand?

We’re here to debunk everything you thought you knew about sci-fi from the perspective of two millennial women who were told our entire young lives (and sometimes still!) that math and science were just too hard for our lady brains. And here’s the thing… we think that because of societal conditioning and the prevalence of men within the genre (and systematically gatekeeping it for others throughout history) we’ve been taught to gravitate toward fantasy instead, avoid science fiction for the wrong reasons, or convince ourselves we “don’t like it” even though the objective evidence proves otherwise.

So, let us guide you! We’ll explain what science fiction is, who got to decide that, and how the genre has evolved to produce amazing works with feminist themes, characters, and messaging. But just like the Romantasy debate has us pondering questions about categorization, so does Feminist Sci-Fi, because shouldn’t both of those genres be for everyone? Why are we always so quick to label things differently when they’re “for women?” What are the pros and cons of doing this?
We hope this sets you up for success moving into Red Rising, and encourages you to dive into the genre if before you were afraid. Because at the end of the day, it’s all just made up anyway. 😉

We bring you all of this plus our fave and fail and smash or pass sci fi edition!

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Check out these narrator interviews? ⬇️

Anthony Palmini gives us the lowdown on what it’s like to voice act Rhysand, Kingfisher, AND Slade Ravinger!
https://youtu.be/zcCyrlZ5Jcc?si=2k7ULbRPgZl_5pUJ

Check out these author interviews? ⬇️

Penn Cole talks with us about Strong Female Characters, Feminist Themes, and her debut bestselling Spark of the Everflame Series! https://youtu.be/7ukNImyoObw?si=7C3Y9kOUMN4hfcKb

We interviewed Callie Hart all about her NYT Bestseller Quicksilver! Watch it here! https://youtu.be/CED5s7qDBdQ?si=8xtIRO1IzX6Rsld4

Check the official Follow Up Author Interview with Lindsay Straube of the Split or Swallow Universe all about Between Two Kings! https://youtu.be/OW1cxXTVcTc?si=oOxVIzbIheET_bNE

Nikki St. Crowe, the queen of spicy fairy tale retellings chats with us about diving into the land of Oz with West of Wicked! https://youtu.be/wwFYSDKcbtE?si=X6iNmUVAE6Xhmv7B

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Liz: Mention Sources:
-Brittanica.com
-panmacmillan.com 
-fantasybookcafe.com
-awriterofhistory.com
-theguardian.com
-booksofbrilliance.com
-digi-con.org
-medium.com

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Transcript

It's all been there. It's been there the whole time. Sci-fi's been there the whole time. It's a bummer that like we've I think been conditioned in such a way that we already think we won't like it because of what we've been taught to like and dislike. Duh. I'm obsessed with Stranger Things. It's right there. It's sci-fi. Which literally is not true because the science doesn't have to even be real.

Hey everyone, I'm Ashley. And I'm Liz. And this is the Besties in the Books podcast. SciFi summer bonus episode series. Here we are. Oh my gosh. Floating in space. Floating sci-fi areas. Literally. Literally. So, you know, today, Spuckle, Spuckle Up, Spuckle Up, whatever that means. Buckle up. Spuckle up. Put on your safety gear. Grab your astronaut buddy. Mhm. Let's shoot off in that rocket. Mhm. Uh spoiler-free episode today, uh all about science fiction as a genre in general. A little history, a little context, if you will, to kick off our summer series covering Red Rising by the, as you all know, at this point in time, infamous Pierce Brown, who likes to uh destroy all of our lives and rip our hearts out constantly. uh in the best way in the best way possible. Uh we have fable chats up for all the books at this point, templates on Instagram, so you can comment, follow, tag, you know, and let us know how your Red Rising reading journey is going. We also will have technically our second episode of this series dropping covering book one. So, deep dive on Red Rising next week on Friday, uh July 10th. After that, we'll have a bonus episode coming out weekly on Fridays to cover all of the books that are currently out. So, all six books. Um, you know, with the hopes that someday in the not too distant far off future, Pierce Brown will release Red God, which will be the final book, book number seven in the series, which allegedly allegedly um cuz I thought I heard that he was uh done at 6 also three. So, well, here we go. Keep them coming. There we go. Um, but you know, our thinking behind that is like, okay, well, we will have already covered deep dove this whole series that you guys really, really wanted us to read and we will be locked and loaded whenever that next book comes out. So, that will be great. Since this is the first time read for us with all of the like neither of us have read anything in the Red Rising series until we started doing this um coverage for you guys, we're not sure if we're going to need a wrap-up episode yet. So, we'll just kind of keep you guys posted on if we're going to do a wrap-up and ranking episode or if we're able to cover everything in the last book uh episode, which now knowing how complex his books are, might probably be hard to do, but we'll see. We won't see. We'll see. We'll see. But we can't wait to get into those discussions with you. So, for today though, we're just going to be talking about, you know, what is sci-fi? How is it different from fantasy? How are those cate like how do those two categories play out in real life? who chooses to read what books, why is that important, maybe what preconceived notions we had going into this series and about what sci-fi is in general. Um, and we just hope that it kind of, you know, like as we've done in the past with, you know, dystopian themes, you know, um, stuff like that, like it it kind of helps to put the whole series into context for you. Um, so you can kind of look at it through some maybe different lenses that you may have not done originally. So today we'll be diving into that sci-fi genre. We're going to be setting the scene for the book series and really breaking it down and talk about where sci-fi comes from. If we ever cover other sci-fi deep dive series in the future, feel free to resort back to this episode. So it doesn't only we're not only talking about Red Rising into it. Anytime we do a deep dive series, I think so far every time now we do a opening intro that will cover future deep dives. So when we did Hunger Games, we did dystopian. So, if we ever get to Divergent or something like that, you can just refer back to I think Divergent's a little sci-fi and dystopian if I know correctly. So, you'll have both episodes to refer to and give you some context. Liz is our research girl. So, shout out using that journalism degree. She is She does have that. This is legit. It was not for nothing. Great. Great. So, uh, you know, she's well researched and we're giving you the information that we think you'll find useful and important and also being silly and fun, too. So, you know, of course, we're not your college professor's podcast over here. We make a little light-hearted and fun. So, we'll be talking all about these themes when it comes to different types of sci-fi books and all the different genres. And we've unofficially officially declared this, as Liz mentioned, sci-fi summer. Beam me up, Scotty. The I got bit by the bug. I don't know about you. I mean, I'm literally wearing a Rao t-shirt, you know? I got bit by the bug. Like, we'll talk about this in our faves and fails sci-fi edition, but I'll talk about what um gave me the bug, you know? Yeah. Yeah. So, it's sci-fi summer over here. If you're not on board yet, let us explain to you why you should be and let's get weird with it. All things sci-fi, futuristic, paranormal, horror, sci-fi, and so much more with books and movies and shows and all the things. And all the things. Yeah. So, hey, buckle up. Like we said, strap on your astronaut shoot. Let's Let's go. Let's Let's blast to the moon. Yeah, exactly. Shoot for the stars and we'll meet you there somewhere. Yeah. Uh, but before we get into that, I just wanted to say that our sources will be cited in the show notes if you want to reference them. In addition to just good old Wikipedia, um, I also wanted to just list these off in the beginning because I'm not going to cite them as we're going through the research below. Um, so lots I got from Britannica.com. Good old Yes. tried and true. Okay. Um, pan mcmillan.com, fantasybookscafe.com, a writer of history, The Guardian, Books of Brilliance, Digicon, and Medium. Um, so those are the main sources that I pulled this research from. And I will let you guys know too if some of the answers to the questions that I was trying to find were very hard or slashimpossible to find because I feel like sometimes when the research hasn't been done that can also mean a lot about what you're trying to figure out. You know what I'm saying? You putting you get getting what I'm putting out there. Yeah. Yeah. But before we get into all of that, um we just wanted to tell you thank you so much for being here. Seriously, thank you so much for taking time out of your day and your life and your book to come hang out with us, weirdos, over here at Besties of the Books Podcast. You can subscribe and follow us anywhere you like to listen favorite podcast, including YouTube. We have a video over there of us hanging out in all of our weirdo book rooms. We love it so much. So much fun. We're also on Instagram and Tik Tok. Again, Besties in the Books podcast everywhere. And hey, hey, Liz, I think this needs to be said because this helped rewire my brain because it it rewired your brain. And we are of one brain when we put our two halves of a brain together. Indeed. Indeed. Do you find yourself feeling like you can't read sci-fi cuz it's complicated, it pulls you out, it's too sciency, and it's just not for you? Yeah. Well, our friend Liz over here has a good tip for you. What is it, Liz? I literally just pretended it was fantasy and everything was fine.

Like, hello, we all like fantasy. I'm guilty of this sci-fi. I'm like, I don't know. We'll talk about why, right? Technically, usually marketed towards the male audience more so. And often times, too, I'm like, I can't get caught up in this mumbo jumbo. Meanwhile, I'm reading a fantasy book about a willow [ __ ] and a zippy zop and a goopy glop. And it's like, what's the difference really? It's all made up. science has a little more reality based, but sometimes not. And sometimes it's just like gone off into into space, if you will. Well, and also it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. So, that did help me, too. That rewired my brain, too. I'm like, "Oh, and now sci-fi bug, sci-fi summer. It's go time." Yep. Yep. I feel like hopefully that will help you guys cuz Yeah. I mean, when I started reading Red Rising and there was like, you know, like I'm just a girl. all these sciency words. I'm being sarcastic obviously right now, but also I'm not because it's like I feel like like with like when you start reading a high fantasy book and you're like, "Oh my god, like what is this world? What is this magic system? What are these places? What you know?" It's like you feel like you're learning a new language almost. I feel like that's how I felt and I was like I took a second and I was like I'm enjoying this but I'm struggling. And then I was like, "Okay, uh, why are you okay just accepting all of these quote unquote like weird words and like madeup things when it's fantasy, but then for some reason when it's sci-fi, you can't do that." And I was like, literally, it's the same exact thing. Don't overthink it. Just pretend it's fantasy. It's fine. Don't get hung up on the solar plexus uh filter gun. It doesn't matter. It's a gun. It's a point. It's a boom boom stick. Like, just go. Yeah, it's fine. And you don't need to memorize all the analog and descriptions of the spaceships or the way the dinosaurs were made. It's okay. Just have fun. It's a vibe. Yeah, we're we are not scientists and that's okay. But we are also not living in fantastical worlds and that's okay. You know what I mean? So it's like just got to put it in. It's so funny how something so simple can be like oh duh. Well, I feel like you know and we'll get into this in depth in this episode today. So, buckle up for that. But, I mean, it's also like I think for a lot of us, like unlearning a lifetime of conditioning. Yeah. So, there's that, too. Yeah. Yeah. Easier said than done, but hopefully we can help you because you guys will all love Red Rising and we're going to convince you to read it. So, hey. Yeah. Yep. Okay. So, let's get into our faves and fails. Just sci-fi edition, shall we? do it. Do you just have something that stands out in your mind as a sci-fi related fave and fail for you? Yeah, a fave. Well, I mean, I'm currently, you know, in my sci-fi summer era, so that's just a fave, you know, just letting just leaning right into that, consuming all the things, all the movies, all the shows. It's such a it's just it's a vibe. I never took much of a liking to like space and things like that for whatever, you know, reason. There's a lot of reasons, but um just doing that reframing that we talked about has helped me lean into it. And a shout out goes to Red Rising for doing that. And then also Jurassic Park, which was that book club pick. So, we're talking I'm like I never even put two and two together, which obviously there's so much of it, but like horror sci-fi. Horror sci-fi is weird. vibe right now. Yeah. For somebody who doesn't love horror, it's like perfect for me because it's so usually out of the out of this world. There's going to be a lot of accidental puns today. Okay, let's just go with it. Um, so I'm really like actively searching. So, if you guys have any book recommendations or anything of more sci-fi horror, tap tap tap tap tap tap. Uh, can we just can we just give Meg Smitherman a shout out because that's literally what she writes. And um I'm obsessed with a lot of you guys may have heard of Thrum. That's the one that got a lot of attention I feel like on Bookstagram, but she also has Entity, she has Swallowed, and she's currently getting ready to release another book. Um, and they're all excellent. They're short nolla length horror sci-fi, and they're amazing, fun, cool. Please read them all. Please read them all. Yeah, I will. Yeah, you'll tell me which one to add to my list first. Thrum, maybe. I loved Throne, but my favorite was Swallowed. Okay, Swallowed should be next then for me. So, I'm just leaning into that. I'm honestly just trying not to make Jurassic Park in particular my entire personality now. Why not? It's great. I was It's funny, too, cuz it's not even dinosaurs. I'm not spec I've never like taken a caring to dinos. So, it's not the dinosaur aspect, but it's the sci-fi and dystopian themes that the novel brought and the political themes and they're talking about, you know, AI and computers, and it's just like I I it's not underrated. People that read Jurassic Park love it. That's why I can't find a used copy of it. But like, literally, it's I get it now. I'm so sorry. I just thought it was going to be dusty. I'm so I don't know why. I don't know why I keep thinking that because none of these books are dusty and not good that we read. Well, not none of them, but most of them are really good. Most of them are really good. Most of the ones that are really hyped are like hyped appropriately. My fail was that I never really got into sci-fi. And part of that was because space really freaks me out. It is what it is. Um, however, going through this journey, Red Rising makes me not freaked out about space anymore. Oh my god, I love that. You need to you need to like write a letter to Pierce Brown. Dear Pierce Brown, he's going to think like a kid wrote it. Dear Pierce Brown, thank you for making me not afraid of space anymore. I read your books and now I can confidently say that I like sci-fi. That's so cute. Yeah, I love it. Yeah, I think Okay, this might freak some people out. For me, it helped me because space freaks used to freak me used to freak me out. I can say that. Good. Um, we are in outer space. Mhm. So, you just got to accept it. And so, that helped me cuz I was grappling with that for a couple months cuz I heard somebody on like Instagram reel or something say that and I'm like, "Oh crap." I mean, it is different to be just floating out there, you know, just free floating. I don't want to ever do that. But it did make me feel some sort of like symbiotic relationship. I felt very like separate from the universe as like planet Earth. But that sentence that somebody said stuck with me so much that it's like, no, we are outer space. We are the universe. We're in it. I've always thought of, you know, Earth is, of course, as a people, we're all we're all in this toilet together, but like we're all in this universe toilet together. So, why be Why have an existential crisis over it? Cuz you're in it. It's fine. Chill out. Like, okay, I will. Yeah. Thanks. Thanks, person. And then pup talk. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah. I always had a fascination with space. Not a fear, but more so like a fascination. But then I lost it for a little while and I had to come back, you know, to Earth. Yeah. Back to Earth. In space. In. Um, so was that your fail that you were afraid and then now you're not? I was afraid and now I'm not. So fail turned into a fave. What about you? Uh, yeah. Well, my Okay, we'll just start off with my fail because this kind of wrecked me for a lot of sci-fi content for a really, really long time. Mom, if you're listening, I don't think she listens. Um, my mom has always been very into sci-fi. Like, that's surprising to me. Yeah, for sure. The math does not necessarily math on that. Well, that's also accurate. Yeah. Um, but you know, I grew up with her being very into sci-fi. So, I have a very, very strong memory of accidentally like coming in the living room one night when she was watching this sci-fi movie called a uh it's either called A Fire in the Sky or Fire in the Sky, something like that. It's basically like a super gnarly alien abduction movie. Um, and I like came in like right when there was like, I don't know, needles going into someone's eyeballs or like something super scary like that. Um, of course be like the worst probably part. Yeah. And it made me like terrified of aliens for like most of I would say probably until my mid20s if I'm being honest. Yeah. And then one day it just didn't bother me anymore. I don't really know like what the switch was to be honest. I'm not really sure. Um, but either way, you know, whatever. Grew out of it or just didn't care anymore or realized that, you know, why do aliens seem to be bad? I don't know. Um, but anyway, so that was definitely my fail. Shouldn't have watched that. Probably should just rewatch it to face my fear, but don't think that I want to. So, I probably won't. Yeah. Yeah. Because it might not be that bad. I don't know, but I don't really want to find out. You know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah. Um, and then my fave. So, I was going to talk about um a couple things. So, as a kid, I my I would say my obsession with space because I tended to get very hyperfixated on super like specific things, you know, um for a while as we do. As we do and Titanic era. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. And so, one of those for me was space. Um and this fascination was hatched after watching that movie Contact with Jodie Foster. Um, that was a good one. Yeah. Yeah. That was based on the uh book by Carl Sean. And so I became obsessed with space after that. Um, and if you guys haven't seen that movie, you should watch it. I just rewatched it recently actually and it still is so good and withstands the test of time. And I mean we are still very hardressed to find characters uh like her in popular media even now in 2026. Um and so yeah, I definitely encourage you to go watch it and I did pick up the book and plan to read it at some point because I still haven't but I'm sure that I'll love it. So anyway, that was my like intro to sci-fi that I think made me like really really into sci-fi. Um, but then I kind of fell off the wagon for a while until the new Star Wars um, with, you know, obviously our favorite couple, Rao, as I'm wearing on my shirt right now, um, came out and that got me back into Star Wars. And I would say that in combination with my husband being really into the Marvel and DC universes as well and me getting really into Captain Marvel, um, kind of brought me back to like my space time. Yeah. you know. Yeah. Yeah. So, those are my faves. Yeah. Yeah. Beautiful. Beautiful. You guys let us know what are your fave space and sci-fi, all things sci-fi related things, and your fails. We'll be putting that up on our Instagram over at Besties and the Books podcast for you to answer. So, just a little check-in. Hey Ash, how's your Red Rising journey going so far? Oh my gosh, I'm obsessed. Literally. I know. Literally. I think we're both on book three right now as we're recording this. Yeah. Yeah. Which I think is Morning Star. Yes, I'm starting it today. I was waiting for my Audible credits to reappear in to kick in. I'm almost halfway through Morning Star book three. And yeah, the stress. The stress. It's real. Hey, if you want to feel like your heart's going to beat out of your chest for an entire book series, I'm assuming. Now, I mean, we're only on book three and there's six that are out right now, but I don't I'm I'm assuming it doesn't get any better. You know what I mean? Um, if you like that feeling, then read Red Rising with us. Yeah. Experience it in real time. Yeah. So, I would say uh our Red Rising journey is going well so far. Yes. Very well indeed. Very well. Pleasantly surprised. Yeah. Okay. So, just to kick this off uh and get right into it. So, we decided to ask you guys when you think of science fiction or you think of sci-fi, like what are the first things that come to mind for you? And it's just like a little rapid fire list of like some of the examples that we got in our question box on Instagram. Star Wars, Mars Attacks, Aliens, Space, The Expanse, Deep Space 9, Mass Effect, which apparently is a video game. I didn't know that one. Murderbot, and I liked this one specifically, Dude Bros. So, not like that has anything to do with sci-fi, but that's who I think that person thinks of would be the readers or the watchers of sci-fi. Um, so it's very like brocoded, which I think a lot of us can kind of relate to. So, I thought that was interesting. And then we asked why when you think like why do you think that we are obsessed or really enjoy sci-fi stories? Um, and some of the things you guys said was, you know, the possibility that there's more out there, right? Um, dreaming of something better. Um, nostalgia and campiness. If we're talking about sci-fi from pretty much any time before the, you know, early to mid 2000s. Yeah. Um, and then because Earth is a mess, so we need to disassociate. Yeah. Yeah. So, I feel like, you know, one of the things I noticed about that was a lot of those answers were kind of like similar reasons why I think people would read any type of fiction, but definitely like fantasy in particular as well. Yeah, totally. So, yeah, I mean, nostalgia and campiness, we all have our favorite like old, right, like fantasy movies that we love. Um, obviously, Disassociation, Dreaming for Something Better, you know, it's like I love those are all the things that I love about fantasy, too. So it's like this episode is going to be about you know laying out what I would say the you know the critics the writers uh have kind of constituted or like decided were the differences between science fiction and fantasy but then also acknowledging that there are literary differences but that they are created by humans as differences and therefore the lines are very very blurry and it's good to have But then take from it what you will, I guess, is what I'm trying to say. Mhm. Totally. Why don't we just discuss for a little bit just to get your guys' brains moving on like what was your first or some of your first experiences with sci-fi or media like as a kid that you can remember? Like anything in particular that kind of stood out to you? Yeah, Star Wars. My brother was obsessed with um therefore I watched the original first three like on repeat non-stop. It's weird because like I'm about to rewatch the whole we've only done the first episode one so I want to rewatch all of them but it's like that's something that now for how much I watched it I don't remember a lot anymore so it's going to be kind of experiencing it brand new as an adult so that's kind of exciting. Um, and then ET, of course, kind of a lot of scary alien movies back then, other than a couple here and there, Signs, you know. I still don't think you've watched that one, right? I have never watched it since I saw it originally because I could not sleep for like two weeks after that. Yeah, it was a creepy one, but you know, yeah, that those kind of like more horror scary type of sci-fi um exposure. And then um obviously we all loved Jurassic Park growing up. And then I recently figured out that The Giver, which was one of my first loves in the books that like made me, is considered dystopian sci-fi. Yep. Because there's heavy elements of science fiction and what science can do in there. And I'm like, "Oh, duh. No wonder why I loved it. It's all been there. It's been there the whole time. Sci-fi's been there the whole time. It's been there the whole time." But I think that we've been, this is my own theory, okay? I think that we have been trained to think of it differently and are kind of almost like even if we like science fiction, it's like we're kind of convinced that that's not actually what you like, right? You like reading fiction, you like reading maybe even like we'll change the name like speculative fiction or like dystopian fiction. But like for some reason I feel like as women it's hard for us to just I don't even want to say say that we like science fiction because that's not hard but it's almost like we're so dissuaded from saying that our whole lives that it's like we call it everything else. Yeah. Does that make sense? Without realizing that it's been there. It's been gendered. It's been gendered big time. And I think that the implications of that are huge because I mean, yeah, how many of us love Jurassic Park and love The Giver and love The Handmaid's Tale and do you know what I mean? And then at the same time, if someone and love Star Wars and then if someone were to come up to you and say, "Do you love science fiction?" Like how many of you Yeah. How many of you guys would just on like just your initial reaction would be to say, "I don't no, not really. I don't know." Like maybe here and there, but not really. when the actual data or like what you actually like would prove completely otherwise, right? Yeah. It's very eye opening. It's a weird disconnect and I think that there's a lot behind that. Yeah, definitely. So, I put my first experiences with sci-fi other than obviously my obsession with contact because I think that that probably came out when I was a little bit older. um would have been so when I was little little I remember becoming obsessed with Princess Leia specifically from the scene where they were stuck in the trash compactor. Like I don't know why, but it's like that scene for some reason just like never left me and it like stuck with me my whole entire life. It was like the first time I can remember maybe it was because it was the first time I could remember seeing that kind of character portrayed in popular media in that way. Um, I think that Princess Leia did that for a lot of people, um, specifically, but yeah, I loved that. Um, and then also I put, uh, my mom's obsession with sci-fi. So, one of the things that she loved was the alien movies with Sigourney Weaver. Um, and so that was one of my first, but I was never really afraid of like aliens that looked more like creatures or like monsters. Um, so that one did, ironically, didn't scare me. I just thought it was really cool and I thought Sigourney Weaver was really cool. Um, yeah. And so those are my first I would say like memories of like actually liking sci-fi and then obviously like Jurassic Park and things like that came a little bit later. Mhm. Do you have any like other examples of sci-fi in media now or just like anytime that you like really love and gravitate to that you just like wanted to mention? I kind of love this view that we're getting lately of like hopeful science fiction. Oh, like with Project Hail Mary. Yeah, Project Hail Mary Disclosure Day. Oh. Uhhuh. Um things like that. Maybe I'm being propagandized. I don't know. Probably. But like it's it's just refreshing growing up with so much um when it came to the sci-fi in the outer space genre being all horror. It's just refreshing. Yeah. Because like you said, like there's enough horrors in our reality and maybe that's maybe for aliens that's what changed for you in your 20s and going through all your journalism classes and figure and like seeing how corrupt the world that we are on is. Yeah. It made it look that gives us Yeah. That's like well are aliens so bad like we have men here that are just as bad. Great. So you know it's almost like hey well you know are they going to be worse? I don't know. The bar is pretty low. So, um I do find that refreshing just more examples of like a positive science fiction and also I'm loving like in Red Rising, like in Jurassic Park, the call out to still maintain a sense of I don't want to say fear, but caution when it comes to the evolution of our technology. Oh, for sure. And what it ethic what ethical implications come from that. And so I think that sometimes those notions aren't always picked up because it's like, "Ooh, cool spaceship, you know, Mac boots." I don't know. Well, a perfect example, a perfect example of this exact thing that you're talking about is, you know, I grew up on the Alien movies. My mom was obsessed with them. They were on like at least the first couple were like on repeat in our house forever, you know, just kind of like, okay, it's on again, whatever. Um, well, I decided recently that I wanted to rewatch them all, but do it in chronological order, um, with my husband. Um, and we did. And spoiler alert, not really, for anyone who has watched or not watched the Alien movies, um, or has never watched them as one kind of like collection together. I didn't realize that that was actually basically like exactly what you're talking about. It's not necessarily that Alien is bad, right? because it's like kind of what I thought it was about. It's like, oh, alien wants to like eat us, you know, whatever. It's a monster. No, we created AI. AI became sentient, created alien to destroy us. Yeah, that's what it's about. And I was like, oh, interesting. I'm like, this is it in completely different perspective. So, it's like what you might think is like, oh, monster movie, you know, is actually so much bigger than that. Terminator is a good example of that. Yeah. I was just thinking Terminator. Mh. Yeah. So much sci-fi that we've been experiencing our whole lives and haven't like realized or accepted that hey, we like sci-fi. Yeah. Right. Even though Yeah. All the evidence uh proves otherwise. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, my favorite examples of sci-fi that I put here, I love ET now. I mean, it's one of my favorites. I was very scared of ET as a kid, but um I've definitely come around. What a great movie. and he's he's just so sweet. My gosh. Okay. Um I actually did love The Martian when it came out, which I think is really interesting because I read that and then went and saw the movie and I was very into it and I just thought it was very strange. I don't know if it's the Ryan Gosling phenomenon, although I mean the Martian had Matt Damon back in his heyday, so I don't really know, but it's like the I loved Project Hail Mary as well, but I just think that it's interesting to see how much more popular Project Hail Mary seemed to get. But The Martian's also really good. So, go check it out if you liked it. Yeah. I mean, it has a different tone for sure. I feel like that that movie was pretty popular when it came out. The Martian. Really? See, I just didn't feel like as many people were really talking about it. I haven't met that many people who've read it to be honest. Yeah. No, more so just the movie, not the book as much. Yeah. Yeah. Um, so I definitely wanted to shout that out. What else? Oh, I did want to give a shout out to The Fly with Jeff Gold Bloom, which we actually have um mentioned on the podcast before because it was another it was another one that messed me up as a kid, but like yeah, those are good stories though. You know what I mean? The ones that stick with you. Also, I wanted to talk about Hey, um do any of you guys really really like again the Marvel or DC universes? Turns out sci-fi. Yeah, of course. Like, oh yeah, I forget. I forget. Yeah. Like Superman's literally an alien from space, guys. You know? So, I feel like again, it's just another one of those ways that lots of times like we just don't even realize that we like sci-fi at all. Frankenstein is sci-fi. Like, I mean, literally, we'll get we'll get into it, but arguably one of the earliest uh basically creators of sci-fi. Yeah. Um just trippy. It's super trippy. lots of horror is sci-fi. Yeah. Um if it has paranormal elements in it or you know what I mean? If it h like there's just so many different ways that science fiction like infiltrate all these different things that we love. Um I put Stephen King on here obviously lots of his stuff science fiction. Um, and then I also put here that, you know, sci-fi, the sci-fi umbrella once we start getting into like all the different kind of like subg genres, um, encapsulates a lot of dystopian fiction, a lot of speculative fiction, um, where we're kind of looking at the societal implications of like where our tech and the, you know, environment can go in the future. So then we're getting into things like The Handmaid's Tale, like that is science fiction. Like, but I think a lot of people like our brains are trained to not think of it that way. The Hunger Games is science fiction. Like, yeah. And so once we start kind of like reframing it, I think it makes it a little bit easier to be like, "Oh, I actually love tons of that stuff." Did you have I guess I I'm curious just to find out like what were your preconceived notions? and you've kind of mentioned it a little bit, but like what did you think of when before we got started reading Red Rising? Did you think you would like it? Did you think you wouldn't? Did you think it'd be for you? What did you think? for Red Rising specifically. I mean, I know it's a very beloved series, so I was hopeful that it would live up to the hype because it is very hyped, but I was uh very hesitant and skeptical because oftent times the male authors that I've read, and it's not all of them, but like I've definitely I am guilty of gender like misplacing judgment on male authors. of like, well, they're not going to be able to flesh out the characters the way that I like. They're not going to be able to get that kind of in-depth. It's all kind of us, not usually, but in a lot of books that I've read, um, very surface level or just focusing on things that like isn't going to be an interest to me. So, for Red Rising, that's what I was cautious about and like, oh no, I hope that we like it cuz we are signing up for six books, you know? Um, obviously I was wrong, and that's totally fine and good, and I'm happy that I was wrong because it is a very well-rounded plot and the series so far, and all the characters are very well-rounded, and there's lots of growth and um it's just it's all the things that I love in a fantasy book and sci-fi. Yeah. Yeah. So, so it's changed I mean, you already mentioned it, but it's changing your mind with between that and Jurassic Park. It's like you're making your way downtown to Sci-Fi Town. Yeah. Making my way down to Sci-Fi Town. Yeah, exactly. It's great. It's I'm happy to be here. Thanks for having me. Yeah. Well, that's the thing is like I kind of went into it similarly minded. Um where I was, you know, fingers crossed like hoping it was going to be really good because so many of you guys had told us that it was really good. Um and there was a select few who I was like, well, I really trust their opinion. Like everything they say to read that's good is good. Um, so I had a feeling, but then I really had to, yeah, like overcome my own internalized bias, like thinking that Pierce Brown was going to not be able to give us the things that we appreciate and enjoy in any book really, right? Um because I feel like oftentimes it is hard to relate to specifically a male main character who's the protagonist and main point of view. But then also Red Rising starts off with our main character Darl only being what 15 or 16 also. So he's very he's not just it's not just a male point of view. It's a male point of view who's young who's a teenager. And I was like, well, I don't know, but that seems hard for me to be able to relate to, you know. Um, so, and then there was also, you know, having to kind of rethink the sci-fi jargon and um all that kind of stuff too, just like getting into it and just having to be like, listen, all the themes that you like are here. Yeah. Um, the characters are excellently written. like you just have to wrap your head around the fact that let's just pretend it's fantasy and you'll be fine. And that's exactly what I've been doing and it's awesome. Um but yeah, I think that there's like a little bit of an unlearning process, but then once you start really unpacking it, you're like, "Oh, I mean, yeah, that it just it makes sense." But it's just it's a bummer that like we've I think been conditioned in such a way that we already think we won't like it because of what we've been taught to like and dislike. Mhm. Yeah. Yeah. Totally. as we've done in the past with these episodes. Let's just start off with the quote unquote dictionary definition. This is actually from the encyclopedia, okay, of what science fiction is. So, science fiction is a form of fiction that deals principally with the impact of actual or imagined science upon society or individuals. Okay, so not just actual but imagined science. Mhm. The term science fiction was popularized, if not invented, in the 1920s by one of the genre's principal advocates, the American publisher, Hugo Gernsbach. The Hugo Awards given annually since 1953 by the World Science Fiction Society are named after him. And this the these achievement awards are given to this top like sci-fi writers, editors, illustrators, films, and fanzines. Um, so the reason why I mentioned that is because I think it's just really interesting that I think what's what was a deterrent for me going into it was like this assumption that I need to have some basic understanding of the science that they are including in order to be able to understand the book, which literally is not true because the science doesn't have to even be real. Yeah. Like I'm like literally it could be completely made up. Like that's Yeah. So unlearn that right now guys if that's something that you thought. Let's just dive right into it then. So to help frame our conversation, the Hugo Award, so this is a award that I just mentioned for best science fiction novel has been given out 72 times since 1953. And of those 72 novels, 26 of them were written by women by 20 women authors. So some of them obviously were repeat winners. So that's about 36%. And I put here that was actually higher than I thought it would be which I thought was pretty cool. I was like okay just to kind of start getting into like what some of those actual books and authors are. So Ursula Kwyn was the first to win with the left hand of darkness in 1970 and then with the dispossessed in 1975. Um both are categorized specifically guys as feminist science fiction. So the left hand of darkness is about the Gethnians. I've actually read this and I don't even remember how to pronounce it. So, an ambisexual race that enters a state of sexual potency called kemer once a month when they become either male or female, allowing them to bear or father children. So, themes in this book include gender, sexuality, politics, cultural misunderstanding, and the nature of humanity. So obviously we're diving into a lot of really interesting themes there that are based in science fiction but like are looking at society and culture as a whole which I think is really important. Um her other book that won the dispossessed is an exploration of an ambiguous utopia contrasting the capitalist stratified planet of Urus with its anarchist communist moon Anerys. So themes include the tension between freedom and state control, the flaws within utopian ideals and the struggle for individuality within a collective. Um so again we're seeing a lot of the same themes that we would see like you know when we were covering dystopias because there's a lot of overlap. So, just to, you know, kind of give you guys some more like notable information in case you're curious to maybe add some more of these to your TBR. So, Lois McMaster Bujold, I don't know how to say her name, so sorry if I mispronounce it. So, she holds four of the awards um matching Robert A. Heinland for the u most best novel Hugo Awards in history. So, woman is tied for holding the most. Um, so I just list off her books, but The Vorgame, Bar, Mirror Dance, Paladin of Souls. Um, so those are part of her science fiction saga. The Vor Vorca Seaggan saga. Sorry, I'm going to mispronounce everything cuz I have no idea what this these are called. Um, which is also considered feminist science fiction. Um, and then Paladin of Souls is actually a fantasy novel set in a different world. So, we're kind of seeing some crossover there, too, as far as like science fiction and fantasy. Obviously, a lot of authors do both or mix them. The lines are very blurred oftent times. Yeah. And then we have NK Gemson. So, um she's a bit more contemporary. So, she made history by becoming the first author to win the best novel award three years in a row. So, um for every book in her Broken Earth trilogy. So, these came out in 2015, 16, and 17. So, you know, this might be something it's something that's now added to my list cuz I hadn't even heard of it before. Um, it is categorized as feminist/speculative fiction, science fiction. So, it's set on a harsh, geologically unstable planet, and the series follows characters fighting for survival while dealing with systemic oppression and cyclical world ending climate catastrophes. So, again, we're dealing a lot with that dystopia. Um, and that's the fifth season, The Oelisk Gate, and the Stone Sky. If you guys want to add those to your list, which are definitely on my list. Have you like I'm just curious. Had you read or like heard of any of those before? Heard of them? Haven't read them, but heard of a lot of them. Heard of a lot of them. Yeah. See, for me, I had not heard like that list that I just read off. I had actually not heard of any of those except for the two Ursula Leguin Kuwin books because um of my feminist science fiction class in college. Yeah. that I Well, I say heard of them, but it was me intentionally researching like favorite like sci-fi horror, sci-fi books, like all those things to add to my upcoming TBR. So, those last ones, The Fifth Season and Oelisk Gate, those came up on a lot of people's top reads. Nice. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's cool. Like I said, those are much more contemporary than the previous ones. Um, so I'm more likely to add those to my list, but I'm sure the other ones are great, too. But it's nice to be able to like go in and like actually see um yeah, you know who's winning these awards. Also, I did find it fascinating that I mean obviously Ursula Ka is like huge in the um speculative and scient science fiction world. Um but I did think it was really cool that feminist science fiction was like literally what won that award first. Like that's pretty neat for sure. Okay, so let's just get into the types of science fiction. So all science fiction can be placed under the general umbrella of either quote unquote hard or quote unquote soft science fiction. So hard science fiction really drills into the details of the science of technology. It's discussing to ensure a high level of accuracy and explore scientific concepts in great depth. So that's going to have a little bit more of in my opinion, I don't know that you really necessarily have to understand how it works, but it's going to be based more like in reality. Whereas soft science fiction focuses more on human emotions and the responses to science and technology and or is more concerned with sciences that govern matters of um sociology, economy, ecology, and anthropology. So soft sci-fi is much less concerned with whether or not the science is correct um but rather like the implications of like imagining what that might do to all these other systems that we have in place which personally I I mean we love stuff I mean that's what the Hunger Games is right it's like I think that that's super interesting like I'm less interested I think about like the actual technology and more interested in how that technology affects people. Yeah, totally. Which is what Jurassic Park is too, right? Yeah. Within those two types of science fiction, you're going to find a lot of different genres. And I found this list really useful. This was um in on botanica.com, also in the good old encyclopedia. Um but it's not obviously there are other ones that I'm not going to talk about or that will be missed here, but here are a lot of the main ones. Okay, so we've got afroofuturism. So, um, let's see here. In Yatasha El Wac's book, Afroofuturism: The World of Black Sci-Fi, and Fantasy Culture, she defines it as an intersection of imagination, technology, the future, and liberation. Um, while saying that it's a way of imagining possible futures through a black cultural lens. Um, so I thought that was really, I mean, specific, right? We've got a few that are also really super specific to different cultures, which I thought was cool. Um, we have, yeah, apocalyptic and post-apocalyptic fiction, which we're super familiar with at this point. Um, alternative history. I would say that that also super familiar with man and like man in high castle. It's a popular sci-fi um alternate history. What if the Nazis won? Oh, it's horrible. Yeah. Yep. Um, we have cyberpunk, the subg genre of low life and high-tech. So, it's set in dystopian near future. Cyberpunk deals with scientific advancements such as artificial intelligence and cyberware against backdrops of societal collapse. Ready Player One comes to mind. Yeah, exactly. Yep. Um, we have just general dystopian fiction. We have plenty examples of that. Uh, this is another one I thought was interesting because I didn't realize this was its whole own specific genre, but it's called Kaiju. Sorry if I'm mispronouncing it. A sci-fi and horror subgenre divine defined by gigantic often city destroying creatures. So, deeply rooted in Japanese um tokuatu film making, classical kaiju serves as metaphors for existential threats like nuclear warfare and environmental disaster. So, Godzilla. Godzilla. Yeah. Like literally like well it's like I never really thought about it that way. King Kong. Yeah. And so I'm like huh I kind of like want to go back and like rewatch Don't Tell my Husband cuz he like has been trying to get me to watch like this Godzilla series. I'm like dude I don't know if I can commit. But it's like my dad went through a weird Godzilla phase now that you mentioned it. And I did watch a lot of Godzilla movies growing up. Yeah. It's almost like watching it through the like lens of, you know, a metaphor for existential threats and environmental disaster might make me perceive it completely differently, you know? Yeah. Yeah. Totally. Instead of just like, oh, this monsters destroying the town. Great. Cool. Yeah. What does it mean? What does it mean? Yeah. I've been driving my family lately left lately, my 10-year-old. I'm like, symbolism. And she's like, what is symbolism? What does that even mean? I'm like, girl. So now I do it to tease her. She's like, "But what? That doesn't even mean it." Symbolism. I mean, hey, it's fun. It's It's Hey, it's fun. It is. Symbolism is fun. Yeah, it is one of my favorite things. Yeah. Um, we've got military science fiction, parallel universes, sci-fi horror. Um, how many fantasy books that we read? Parallel universes, a little bit of sci-fi in there, little alternate dimensions, little portals. Oh, kind of kind of often. Often. Yeah. Um, we have space opera. So, I was curious about how these things were different. Okay. So, we'll start with space opera. Is a big, bold, and sweeping. The subg genre emphasizes space warfare and melodrama featuring risk-taking space adventures with plenty of page time being given to character development. mainly set in outer space. Space operas are usually set in the far-flung future featuring alien species and wars between intergalactic empires. So like Star Wars. Star Wars. Yeah. Uh Guardians of the Galaxy if you want to talk about superhero genre. And I believe Red Rising is considered a space opera. See, this is where I was wondering because is Red Rising a space opera or is it a space western? Oh, tell us. Okay, so space westerns are usually soft science fiction dealing with people living on the outskirts or frontier of an empire's collection of planets. Focus is firmly on the rebels and rogues with high adventure and fun being the order of the day. So it's like I feel like there's overlap there. Would I necessarily say that Red Rising is all about fun? No. However, I mean, it does obviously focus firmly on the people living on the fringes of society as the rogues or the rebels at this point in time. Um, but also what main society looks like. Yeah. Mhm. So, both. Yeah. So, I'm like space opera western. Yeah. And that's the thing is like a lot of these will overlap and can be more than one thing. Um, and then time travel was the last one I had written down. So, yes. Yep. Um, okay. So, where did sci-fi as a modern genre originate? Yeah, I really took a deep dive into this because I was curious about it myself and I think that it's important to set the scene for a lot of why the genre has been gendered. I think too. Yeah. All right. So, science fiction is a modern genre. The writers in antiquity sometimes dealt with themes common to modern science fiction. Their stories made no attempt at scientific and technological plausibility. The feature that distinguishes science fiction from earlier speculative writings and other contemporary speculative genres such as fantasy and horror. So the genre form formally emerged in the west where the social transformations wrought by the industrial revolution first led writers and intellectuals to extrapolate the future impact of technology. Yeah. Um so that makes sense. I mean we've talked about that before and even like I feel like we talked about that a lot with dystopias as well. Yeah. because of like how whatever events were going on or whatever technology was advancing, people would then use literature to critique it. Yeah. Right. Exactly. Like since the dawn of time. Okay. So among the earliest examples is the second century Syrianborn Greek satist Lucian who in trips to the moon described sailing to the moon. So such flights of fancy or fantastic tales provided a popular format in which to saturize government, society, and religion while evading liel suits, censorship, and persecution. Um, which we've seen this with pretty much every genre, which I think is pretty cool, even romance, right? Yeah. Um, let's see here. The clearest forrunner of the genre, however, was the 17th century I love that they called him a swashbuckler. Serrano de Burarak who wrote of a voyager to the moon finding a utopian society of free men uh to free men from war disease and hunger. So that was second century like yeah long long time ago. So basically like when I was doing this research there are examples from long long ago of like the early precursors to science fiction. So that would be one. Mhm. Um, another one was, he has a French name, but so I'm just going to butcher it, but it was Lewis Sebastian Mercier um, in 1771. Memoirs of the year 2500. So, it was a work of French political speculation set in a 25th century utopian society that worshiped science. While many other writers had depicted some future utopian kingdom of God or a utopian society in some mythical land, this was the first work to postulate a utopian society on Earth in the realizable future. So I think it was a little bit easier for people to like wrap their heads around. But it was banned by the French regime which recognized that Mercer's fantasy about the future was a thin disguise for his subversive revolutionary sentiments. And despite this official sanction or perhaps because of it, Mercer's book became an international bestseller. And it is said that Thomas Jefferson and George Washington both owned copies. So I like lore like that. You know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So I think right about here is where most people would say that their brain would go when they think of where science fiction came from. So that would be in 1818 with Mary Shel's work Frankenstein. So many consider this to actually be the world's first true science fiction novel. So the reason for this is because unlike earlier stories that relied on myth or the supernatural or magic um Frankenstein uses scientific principles. So Victor Frankenstein uses scientific principles specifically chemistry and electricity to animate his creature. Yeah. So novel Shel's novel essentially introduced the archetype of the mad scientist who faces the moral and ethical consequences of pushing the boundaries of human knowledge. And while works with speculative elements appeared earlier, many critics consider Frankenstein to be the first modern science fiction novel because it grounds speculative technology like reanimation in the science of the era. Yeah, totally. That makes sense. Yeah. And it's also just like fascinating to me to think about the fact that like science fiction has been so gendered even though like Mary Shelly is like widely accepted as being like the creator of the genre. Yeah, for sure. I mean I know at the time like a lot of people didn't believe that she wrote it, but still. Right. Yeah. Okay. So, Champions of Shelley as the mother of science fiction emphasized her innovative fictional scheme, abandoning the cult um like what was generally popular in the Gothic novel, she made her protagonist a practicing scientist, even though the term scientist was not actually coined until 1834 um and gave him interest in uh galvanic electricity and vivisection, two of the advanced technologies of the early 1800s. And then even though reanimated corpses remain fantastic today, Shelley gave her story an air of scientific plausibility. Um, so super interesting. I've been wanting to reread Frankenstein lately. Yeah, I know. I haven't read it since college and I think that um it would hit a little bit more now. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. So, just to kind of give you guys So, after Mary Shelley completely like changed everything. Yeah. Then we have Edgar Alan Poe come along. We have Jules Vern come along. So they are also known as trailblazers of the modern sci-fi era. Um so the success of juvenile science fiction stories which originally started in Britain um basically made a love of science fiction that culminated in the founding of adultoriented pulp magazines in the 1920s. So that's where a lot of that like kind of more campy sci-fi stuff that like I feel like a lot of us like can kind of picture like vintage, you know, like movie posters or like clips from like that's kind of where they got their start. This also got science fiction into a lot of American hands. So this is when it got a little bit more popular over here. So this brings us up to the golden age quote unquote of science fiction. Um, so I think this is important because this is what kind of like directly pipelines us in America because I'm not covering science fiction in like all the countries because we'd be here for until the end of time. Okay. Yeah. So brief overview and but the golden age of science fiction with these pulp magazines is what really will send us on the trajectory to like where we are now. Yeah. So, we talked a little bit before about the Hugo Award that was started by the quote unquote, you know, like uh father of science fiction. I'm putting that in error quotes. Hugo Gern Gernsbach. So, he was an immigrant from Luxembourg based in New York City who made a living publishing technical magazines for radio and electrical enthusiasts. Noting the growing fondness of his youthful audience for fictional accounts of thrilling technical wonders, Gernsbach began to republish the works of Vern and Poe and the early writings of HG Wells. Um, and he came up with a magazine. He started publishing a magazine called Amazing Stories that was founded in 1926 that broke ground for many imitators and successors. Um, and also included his later periodicals which were entitled Science Wonder Stories. Um, so that pretty much kicked it off here in the United States. Um, but it also I thought this was kind of a funny side note. It also gave a lot of Americans the false assumption that we created science fiction, which I which I thought was funny and very uh just like on brand. Yeah, for sure. Um, okay. So another notable work of this period was I am so going to butcher these names. Yev Jenny Zamyatin's book my that was written in 1920 which circulated in manuscript and was not published in Russian until 1952 and translated into English in 1924. Uh which won a wide readership overseas. Um, so basically the author was daring to write a satire that actually led to his banishment under Joseph Stalin. So again, we're dealing with people using literature to critique these governments that otherwise they wouldn't be able to. Um, obviously it still didn't go well for him because he was banished. Um, but the book's depiction of life under a totalitarian state influenced two other great novels of the 20th century that you guys may have heard of. Aldis Huxley's Brave New World in 1932 and George Orwell's 1984, which came out in 1949. Yeah. So, so now we're getting to the It was there the whole time. It was there the whole time. It's now we're getting into the books that I feel like a lot of us, you know, aside from Frankenstein may have read in school or, you know, are pretty familiar with. Okay, so after World War II, publishers largely abandoned the pulp magazines in favor of paperback books and paperback like digest. So, science fiction also grew in popular esteem after the advent of the atomic bomb in 1945 and the launch of Sputnik in 1957. Yeah, I mean it makes sense. I think it I think those events um cuz we've always had unfortunately war as a society but things like leading to atomic bombs leading to all these developments in technology. It allowed we as a people, authors, anybody that was inspired by what they were seeing around them to think past what humans were currently capable of to see how much progress has had changed over the last century or two. Like we didn't really progress that much and then all of a sudden we're progressing so fast. So I think it opened that door up in the brain of like well what could happen and what would that mean for society? Like what does starting a landline? What is developing the phone? What kind of implications does that have when we have all these technologies and all these different players in the game and how does that affect we as a people and humans and the planet or like wherever it can take you? Yeah, totally. Yeah. Yeah, I mean it's I think it's within human nature. It's just it's human nature to question. Mhm. Um you know is is this good? Is this bad? What could be the societal implications, the environmental implications um of dealing with something like space exploration or something that could have the potential to be very destructive like the atomic bomb, right? So I feel like Yeah, that's exactly right. It's going to like spur a lot of Yeah. imagination. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, so under the editorial guidance of the new science fiction digest, American science fiction of the 1950s became more sophisticated, urbane, and satiric, which I thought was cool. Um, with a lot more anthropologically based speculation about societies and cultures. Yeah. Um, so this is when we start getting into more of the quote unquote like soft science fiction as we talked about before. Um so many books and film adaptations from this decade were rife with cold war induced fear and paranoia. Um Soviet politics and the cultural revolution in China also greatly influenced the genre during the 60s and 70s. So again it's like art reflects life and vice versa. In Britain and the United States editorial pmics of Michael Morco and Harlon Ellison led a rebellious new wave movement that facilitated the genre's move in fresh direction. So I had not heard about this before so I thought it was interesting. Um, so sporting a countercultural disregard of taboos, so particularly with regards to morals and sexuality, a fascination with mindaltering drugs, shocking, right, in the 60s and 70s, um, Eastern religions, and an interest in experimental literary styles. So the movement pushed the boundaries of traditional science fiction until the genre was almost unrecognizable. So most aventgard experimentalism had vanished by the late '7s, but by then the new wave had vastly expanded the subgenre of soft science fiction. So, it's like I told my husband last night when I was like talking to him about the stuff that I had learned. I was like, so basically everyone's just like tripping out and like trying to like figure stuff out about like where we could go. Yeah. And I'm like I kind of love that cuz it's like it just it opened up the genre so much. Yeah, for sure. And made it Yeah. Which is cool. Um, so it's around this time that science fiction became very popular and more sophisticated in TV and film. So We've got Star Trek in 1966. Um 2001 of Space Odyssey in 1968. Star Wars in 1977. ET in 1982. The Terminator in 1984, which I didn't realize that was that came out in the 80s. I was like, "Oh, that's crazy." Yeah. Um Alien in 1979, Jurassic Park in 1993. Um this was a crazy statistic to me. US box office receipts for science fiction, fantasy, and horror films jumped from only 5% of total sales in 1971 to nearly 50% by 1982. Yeah, that's pretty cool. Yeah. Yeah. And just kind of telling that makes sense to me. Yeah. Because you have the um silent generation uh raising the baby boomers. I believe this is the time frame. Um, and a lot of them were very like, you know, anti- this kind of speculative uh, fiction with heavy religious upbringings. And then you have the kids that are either sneaking to go and see these things to becoming adults in the 80s and fully supporting these movies and films. Totally. I mean, hey, watch that 70s show, you know, like that's a perfect example of exactly what you just said because it's like I mean, I remember like watching it and seeing like how excited they were to like go see Star Wars, but how, you know what I mean? But how it was like such a big deal, but then also like the parents didn't really understand it. Oh, what is this? You know what I mean? Yeah. Mhm. Um, yeah. Super cool to like see it kind of like unfold over time. Yeah, for sure. And obviously, guys, I'm going to miss a lot of things, but like we can only keep you here till 4, you know? Yeah. Okay, so let's just get into the modern times, the modern area, what we as millennials um and otherwise would probably find a little bit more relatable. Yeah. So, we're just going to break it down. So, the 1990s is known more for the dawn of cyberpunk, which we um you know, kind of gave the definition of a little bit ago. Practical spectacle. Say that five times fast. practical spectacle and hard sci-fi. So, we're looking at popular themes like virtual reality, genetic engineering, alien invasions, and anxieties about rapidly advancing computer technology. So, what were the key movies? Well, we've got some Terminator movies. We've got Jurassic Park. We've got The Matrix. And then, um, like, duh, how obsessed were we with The Matrix? Literally, I know. Um, and then a movie called 12 Monkeys, which honestly I have never seen and it came out in 1995, so I'll have to look that one up. Um, shows we've got Vex Files, duh. Paranormal, sci-fi. Yeah. Uh, Stargate, uh, Babylon 5. So, during this decade, sci-fi literature was defined by massive shifts in technology, space exploration, and post-apocalyptic world building. So, this work helped transform the genre from classic pulp adventures to modern epics. Um, which I thought was cool. Key books, obviously. We've got Jurassic Park. Um, we've got Snow Crash by Neil Stevenson, Red Mars by Kim Stanley Robinson, Parable of the Sewer by Octavia Butler, and The Giver by Louis. Um, so I know we've read at least one of those on the list, at least a couple. Um, so that's cool. I love Parable of the Sewer, by the way, guys. So, if you haven't read that, pick it up. Um, so now we move to the 2000s. So, this era was uh influenced a lot by post 911 dystopias and the rise of CGI, which I thought was interesting. Uh-huh. Yeah. So, defining themes, gritty dystopias, space operas, and hard sci-fi focusing on artificial intelligence and transhumanism. Yeah. So key movies, Children of Men, District 9, Avatar, and then a movie called Moon, which again I have not watched that one or There was literally also Moon movie AI. Mhm. That kid. Yeah, that was kid. Yeah. Yeah. Interesting. That would be weird to watch now. We should just for science, you know? I feel like it I don't remember too much about it, but it is probably a little propaganda cuz it's a little like this poor kid that's you know it's like what it it's artificial intelligence being sentient, you know. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, you kind of like you feel sorry for him cuz they need to unplug him or something. But like I get it cuz sometimes I feel sorry for my robot vacuum, you know? It got stuck in balloons yesterday. A sorry you had to work so hard. So sorry. I heard it downstairs. Are you okay? It's like balloons wrapped in its brush. At least one happy. Yeah, it's like that's so funny. Um and then shows Battlestar Galactica, Lost, and Firefly were like the top ones of the time. Um I remember, you know, I had a friend who was obsessed with Firefly. I watched I mean I watched every Lost every Friday when it came out. That was the water cooler talk. That was like the lo the last water cooler discuss was lost. Did you watch wa lost la? Did you watch lost last night having a view party of the end? Yeah. Yeah. I didn't realize it was sci-fi though. But duh again. Again. Duh. Yeah. I watched it with my college roommate. I never really got that into it. Like I would watch it with her cuz like she liked it a lot but I was not obsessed. You it you had it was a you had to be there during it's not a good rewatch. I've tried. I'm like, "This is stupid." And I know how it ends and it's not worth it. It ends badly. Yeah. It ends very badly and it goes on for too long. Yeah. The whole like after the first couple seasons just wrapped this up. Yeah. It went off on too many um rabbit trails to nowhere, you know? Yeah. Yeah. Side quest to nowhere. Maybe that's why like I just Yeah. I didn't connect with it. I was like, I don't You can't just like jump in into it either. It's like what the hell's happening? Well, we're watching it from the beginning and we don't know. Yeah. So, no one knows. No one knows. But it but we're supposed to know. So we can't zone out these facts. Yeah. You know. Yeah. Yeah. Kiss of death. Yeah. So, okay. So then in the 2010s, this decade is defined by philosophical hard sci-fi and cinematic universes, plus dystopias and epic space operas. So some defining themes. We've got multiverses. So, we've got time travel paradoxes, existential dread, um, hard science accuracy, some key movies, Inception, Interstellar, Arrival, the Marvel Cinematic Universe, completely dominating the blockbuster space. So, those were huge shows like Black Mirror, and Stranger Things. Like, duh. I'm obsessed with Stranger Things. It's right there. It's sci-fi, Ashley. Crazy. It's cra This is why I love when we do these um you know deep dives into these genres because it just makes you realize like how much you're consuming this media already and you're not even realizing it until you realize it. The disconnect is interesting. Yeah. It's really trippy. It is trippy because it's like it doesn't work that. That's why I think this is like largely a gendered problem because I feel like if someone were to come up to you and say, "Do you like fantasy?" You'd be like, "Yeah." Yeah. Mhm. Without even thinking about it. Yeah. Of course. And if they said, "Do you like sci-fi?" Be like, "Oh, no. It's not really my thing. I don't read much of it." Meanwhile, I've read a I've read a lot of it. Meanwhile, like that's all we're consuming right now. Yeah, totally. It's dude. Mhm. Uh Okay. And then the 2020s, here we are. So mindbending multiverses in precision television. Sorry, I just remembered another one. You know, continue. I'll say it in the next one. Okay. Yeah. So the themes of now so blended genres. So sci-fi mixed with comedy and drama. Um simulated realities, deeper social commentary, which I think Yeah, cuz we come to expect that at this point. Um, some key movies, Everything Everywhere All at Once, Dune, Dune Part Two, The Creator, and then shows like Severance. Severance, which I also am obsessed with. It's sci-fi, Ashley. Duh. Golly. Golly. It's cuz it's like when they have those like dystopian themes. Like, I'm quick to put it in a dystopian box cuz I think, yeah, as women were given that a lot with Hunger Games and everything. Oh, dystopian. Of course you like that. But it's like, but it's very sci-fi. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I didn't put it on this list, but yeah. Fall, that's how Fallout is for me. I was like, "Oh, yeah. It's But I mean, literally, it's completely based in all things sci-fi." Yeah. Yeah. Um, and then The Last of Us as well obviously got huge. And, uh, Foundation as well, which I have not watched, but Yeah. Yeah. So, and then just to tie it back around to books. So, key sci-fi books of the 2000s. So, these were the highest rated, highest sales. So, yeah, we have The Martian by Andy Wear, uh, The Hunger Games by Suzanne Collins, Ready Player One by Ernest Klein, The Three Body Problem by I have no idea how to say this person's name, I'm sorry, Sixen Lou, uh, Leviathan Wakes by or Leviathan Wakes by James S. A Corey, Dark Matter by Blake Crouch, and Red Rising by Pierce Brown. He was included in the lists. Yes. Love it. Love it. Um, okay. So, when I was looking up the highest rated and highest grossing books of the 2000s, um, in the sci-fi genre category, um, I just put a little note here that I found it odd that The Handmaid's Tale was never mentioned in my research, um, for books or TV shows, both. um because it's categorized on Google as spanning multiple genres but primarily classified as a dystopian. It's as basically dystopian and speculative fiction. So it also incorporates elements of feminist literature, political fiction, and psychological thriller.

So I thought I haven't read it and I've only seen uh one of the seasons. So you feel it should be categorized as sci-fi. Well, it is. cuz it's feminist sci-fi. Okay. Yeah. But when you So why in a non-spoiler way should it be? Because then I can get nice and pissed off. That um because the reason why we're in this mess is because of ecological disaster that affects women's ability to reproduce specifically um causing society to degrade. We'll just say without giving any spoilers um if you are interested in reading it, it's a really good book or watching the show which I didn't love but is important. Um so it would absolutely be included in the feminist science fiction category. Absolutely. There's in my eyes there's no way that you could separate that like yeah it wouldn't necessarily be quote unquote hard science fiction but it would definitely be considered soft science fiction because it deals all with all those issues. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Totally. Um, so yeah, I did think that was kind of fascinating. It was like the whole why is Withering Heights not coming up as romance when you type it in debate, you know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So, because Yeah. It it might be weird if all the people who enjoy watching maybe not enjoy, but who appreciate watching The Handmaid's Tale realize that they actually enjoy watching science fiction. Yeah. Yeah. And it's like Yeah. The same thing we talk about on the upcoming Red Rising episodes is why is there romance as a subgenre in the Red Rising episodes but it books the Red Rising books but they don't say that when you Google it and you look everywhere but yet Hunger Games is marketed as romance young adult romance and it's less involved. Huh. Yeah. Well, we'll get into that a little bit here in a moment.

Okay. So, let's just get down to what we've really been wanting to know and where this is all leading. What actually is the difference between science fiction and fantasy and who made that up? Yeah. Okay. So, science fiction differs from fantasy and that science fiction employs questions of scientific and tech technological plausibility while fantasy typically does not. Okay, so that's according to again bratannica.com. No single person got to decide on the differences between science fiction and fantasy. Instead, the distinction was shaped over a century by a collective of early pulp magazine editors, men, pioneering authors, men and then Mary Shel, who they didn't believe wrote her own book. And later on, publishing and marketing companies categorizing literature. Yeah. So, it's like, can we read between the lines there? Like, give me a break. Okay. So, the separation of these genres evolved gradually through several key figures and movements. first being Hugo Gernsbach, which we've talked about a lot so far in this episode. So, he's quote unquote the father of science fiction because he currented or coined the actual term in 1926 when he founded Amazing Stories magazine. So, he established that sci-fi should be based on real scientific principle and plausible future technology. Okay. Well, that's very um subjective. Like if you're going to say that it needs to be based on real scientific principles and plausible future technology, that could really mean anything to anyone, right? Yeah. Okay. Then we have John W. Campbell. He's the editor of astounding science fiction in the late 1930s and 40s. So Campbell led sci-fi's golden age. He pushed writers away from pulp tropes and towards highly technical, scientifically rigorous stories, cementing sci-fi as an intellectual genre. Okay. Okay. Then we have the pulp magazine writers and editors. So in the early 20th century, magazines like Weird Tales specifically published the supernatural and magical while magazines like Amazing Stories handled technology in space. This created a clear industry division based on what kind of quote unquote explanation drove the plot. So was it magic or was it science? So got it. Got it. Got it. It's, you know, it's kind of the whole like um, you know, if a woman was a doctor, she got burned at the stake for being a witch because that wasn't actually science or medicine. It was magic, right? It's kind of like the same vein, I think. Yeah. Um, so publishers and bookstores. So during the 70s and 80s, the booming popularity of series like The Lord of the Rings and Star Wars led publishing and retail companies to physically separate sci-fi and fantasy section in bookstores for easy marketing. To me, it seems like it might actually be beneficial to just be like, "Hey, you like the Lord of the Rings, maybe check out Star Wars or vice versa." I mean, how many of us love both so much? So much. So, but apparently in the 70s and 80s, they felt the need to separate it so that it was easy for them to market these genres as being separate. Okay. And then author philosophies. So, um, influential authors like Ursula Kayla Gwyn, who we talked about before, and Arthur C. Clark helped popularize the general consensus that sci-fi explores the possible through science and extrapolation, while fantasy explores the impossible through magic and the supernatural. So, it's like I could almost see that distinction there. But I think the danger comes from the implications of assigning

value to different genres, right? Like that would be fine if that existed in a vacuum, right? Yeah, totally. But unfortunately, it's like I think by separating it, it kind of it had a bit more like fallout on the people that might um participate in writing it and then also reading it. Well, yeah. Because what happened is it's fine to separate it, but then how they marketed those two separate right entities is where we got lost. Yeah. Yeah. But then it's like it's also it's how they market it, but then also what I think not just in modern times like in the 70s and moving forward, but what historically over the centuries women have been persecuted for. Yeah. Um versus what men have been rewarded for. Yeah. And so I think that is also important to note because it's not that women have ever been less quote unquote scientific. It's just that it's defined differently in order to um uh enact control over, right? It's like that's how you maintain a hierarchy. Yeah. Yep. For sure. Okay. Okay, so while many agree that sci-fi uses tech or science while fantasy uses magic, the lines are often intentionally blurred and many people actually consider them to simply be two branches of the broader quote unquote speculative fiction family, which I would think like, you know, you're going to have more things that lean more quote unquote sciency and things that lean more quote unquote fantasy. But like at the end of the day, like I kind of almost more so agree with that take where it's like, you know, we're looking at something that's examining how these systems affect people and that can be told in so many different kinds of ways with magic or not. Maybe there's science and there's magic. Maybe the lines between magic and science are very blurred, which I feel like exists a lot in fantasy. I think so many of our favorite fantasy books are doing the same things these science fiction books are doing in a fantastical way. Totally. Like we're looking at oppression and overthrowing um uh ty tyrannical government and what does that look like? What does that journey look like? Yeah. And and also it's like I guess where I get hung up on too and we've talked about this a lot is like where does magic end in science start and who gets to decide that? Yeah. Right. It's like okay so just because someone is a quote unquote healer in a fantasy book that uses some kind of like quote unquote magic or alchemy to cure someone. How is that not soft science fiction? Right? Because if we're talking about, you know, things that could be plausible in the future. Yeah. To me, that sounds like something that could be plausible in the future. Yeah. So, just some things to think about, you know. Um, okay. So, who actually writes science fiction and fantasy? Um, interestingly enough, I couldn't find official stats to cover overall numbers of published authors. Um, which I thought was kind of fascinating. So, I had to go off of like several rough estimates from smaller studies. Yeah. Um, so, but this was very telling. Okay. So, here we go. Currently, men write the majority of published novels in the adult science fiction category, capturing roughly 65% to 70% of new releases. Okay. Okay. In the adult science fiction category, young adult sci-fi female authors write the overwhelming majority, generally holding an 80% to 90% share of published works in this category. Wow. So, I was like, well, okay. At first, I read those and I was like, interesting. Cool. That's cool. Okay. So, women are writing a lot of sci-fi. That's neat. That's neat. And then I realized that it's not in the adult category. It's specifically in the YA category. Yeah. So, it's like Again,

it's like, okay, how many of those would are are YA? Sure. Okay, fine. Or how many of those are infantilized like a lot of other books written by women are? Mhm. Or are reduced in seriousness or, you know, let's just say political or scientific complexity because of who wrote them. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. um adult fantasy the numbers are much closer. So what I could find women account for roughly 53 to 55% of the published works. This is specifically in fantasy. So the disparity is not quite so wide there. Okay. So moving on past that I wanted to look in who into who reads science fiction and fantasy. So we're talking about who writes it. Okay. Now who reads it? While women account for about 80% of overall fiction readers, science fiction is one of the few genres that skews closer to an even split. So men are statistically more likely to read hard sci-fi and military sci-fi while women frequently read sci-fi mixed with romance, fantasy or young adult fiction. So I thought that was kind of fascinating though that the sci-fi audience is largely split down the middle middle. So 51% male to 49% female. But this is the difference. This is a massive shift from traditional surveys in the mid 1900s which were over 90% male. So, we can see after it went from being basically a completely male-dominated, you know, readership and authorship mostly as well to now that we're in 2026, we're almost to that 50/50 spot. Yeah. But it's taken a long time to get there. Yeah, that's crazy. So, fantasy readership is relatively balanced overall, though it's skewed by subg genre. So, I thought this was interesting. um especially because lots of these things are grouped together. So men traditionally gravitate towards epic fantasy, sci-fi, and um lit RPG. Meanwhile, women make up the majority of readers of young adult fantasy, urban fantasy, and romanty.

So this got me thinking too, okay, well, we've got all these like societal factors at play, but for me, I know a big factor was in am I going to see myself represented in this story? and am I going to be able to relate to it? Yeah. Okay. So, then I decided to ask the question, who has historically been represented in sci-fi? Historically, science fiction protagonists have been predominantly male. However, the landscape has shifted dramatically with a massive surge in femaleled stories, diverse ensembles, and non-binary protagonists across both literature and film. So, we're making a lot of progress. Um, but you know, a breakdown of the genre's history and current trends. So rooted in early pulp magazines, which we talked about before, sci-fi was long marketed towards young boys and written by men, which heavily favored male main characters and the lone hero archetype. So it's also historically been written a lot for the male gaze. So even when female leads did appear, such as an alien or ghost in the shell, they were often still framed through a traditionally masculine or male ccentric perspective. So that's what I was afraid was going to happen. Recent data analysis also shows that speculative fiction is seeing a much greater distribution of gender representation. So I think that when we're looking at science fiction, we need to also kind of like maybe reframe our brains a little bit. When they tell us speculative fiction, I think lots of times we just need to be like, okay, that's probably science fiction. Um, you know, or authors like, you know, many of the ones that we have already talked about like NK Gemson, Martha Wells, Anne Leki. So, they're award-winning mainstream success for female and non-gendered protagonists. So, I think that's important, too, because they are writing stories that it's easier for other types of people to see themselves in. And then also, I thought this was kind of funny that someone had thrown this in here that blockbusters have embraced female leads. And the best examples that they could give would be the new Star Wars trilogy and Dune part two, which is like I've seen Dune part two and okay, like maybe, but also really and then the Star Wars trilogy for sure. I love Ry, but like also obviously we've got a lot of other characters, too. Like it doesn't just solely focus on her. So, I feel like we still have a long way to go when it comes to things like that. Yeah. Um, but we are making a lot more progress for sure. Yeah. What are you thinking about? It looks like you're like thinking about something. Yeah. I got stuck on like at what point is like fantasy just not like on another planet in another universe like Star Wars and Dune? Because it's not like they mention Earth, they don't. A lot of the ones that we love do, but yeah, it's like Dune like that could just be fantasy. What makes it sci-fi except the technological aspects that they are using? Of course. But Dune is still considered to be soft sci-fi. So, yeah. Yeah, for sure. Okay. All right. So, I know we could get we could go round and round all day long, guys, but this is more so to just give you guys some basic information and then take that and maybe it'll help you explore a little bit more outside the genre that you normally would. Or maybe you'll feel a little bit take over sci-fi. Yeah, let's take it over too. Let's take it over, too. Let's make a why it's not good enough now. Oh, that's not real sci-fi. I'm gonna write a sci-fi book to spite them. I mean, hey, I support I support that. Um, but but really, it's like that should be the next horror and sci-fi should be the next things that we fully take over and embrace and add it to the list and it'll be great. Yeah, it'll be great. Okay, so all right, let's get into some fun numbers. Let's talk about the five bestselling sci-fi books of all time. Ash, would you have I mean, I know that you have the list in front of you, but did you like see this coming that The Hunger Games by Suzanne Collins is the number one bestselling sci-fi book of all time? I didn't see it coming because I forgot that it would be categorized as sci-fi or I didn't I didn't know. I just learned this. Yeah. So, well, for me, for me, it was more like the fact that it's so relatively new. Okay. So, it's like a 50 Shades of Gray. It's 100%. It's 100% like that. Okay. So, The Hunger Games by Suzanne Collins has sold over a 100red million copies. Okay, that's the number one spot. The number two spot in the sci-fi category is 1984 by George Orwell that came out in the 40s. Okay. Yeah. And the disparity is that one sold 30 million copies. So, we're talking the difference between 30 million lifetime and 100 million lifetime. Yeah. The jump is insane. Crazy. Yeah. But yet, we are still repeatedly told as girls and women that sci-fi is not really our thing for us. Yeah. It's not really your thing. Interesting. The numbers prove otherwise as always. But a w a YA sci-fi written by a woman sits at the number one spot above George Orwell above the number three spot, Dune by Frank Herbert. And then number four is Foundation by Isaac Azimov. That's 20 million. And then five is The Ultimate Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy by Douglas Adams at 15 million. So that's almost more than the bottom the next four combined. Hunger Games sitting at 100 million because we have 30, 20, 20, and 15. Huh. Combined. Combine all of them and Hunger Games is right there. Mhm. At top at the five bestselling book itself. That's amazing. I mean, it does have four now five books, but nonetheless, no, this is not the series. Oh, that's just also duh. Yeah, that's only book one. Yeah, this is not the series. Book one. Now, imagine how much it is for the entire book series. Wow. Yeah. So, I categorize it specifically this way because book series is different and I'll get into that in just a second. Okay. So, um, so I just wrote here, you know, majority of men, but a woman is still sitting at number one by an effing lot. That's what I wrote. Um, so, hey, that's cool. Also, let's go back to the what, the Herbert Award, right? Or whatever it's called by that guy who founded quote unquote science fiction with a feminist sci-fi author winning the first two times. Okay. So, hey. All right. Common sci-fi themes from these books are AI, personhood, cybernetics, body modification, authoritarian control, dystopias, survival after societal collapse, playing god, first contact, interstellar war, time paradox, and what if scenarios. So yeah, you know, these are very common themes, I think, throughout both, but specifically to sci-fi. Okay, so the five best-selling fantasy books of all time. Number one sits at the Fellowship of the Ring by J.R. Tolken with 150 million copies sold. Um, so not a surprise. Literally not a surprise. Two is a Game of Thrones by George R. Martin, 90 million. Number three, The Eye of the World by Robert Jordan, 90 million. Four is Disc World, which I've never even heard of, but I know a lot of you guys read Terry Patchet at 80 million. And then five is Interview with the Vampire by Anne Rice at 80 million, which surprised me. Yeah. Um, again, we've only got one woman making the list, and this is in fantasy, which I found really interesting, too. Um, common themes here. Good versus evil, corruption of power, chosen one, rebellion against tyranny, intertwining magic with the human condition, rebellion, the hero's journey, coming of age. Lots of crossover there. Um, but I liked laying that out because it was actually really interesting to me that I would have thought that there would have been more best-selling authors in the fantasy genre. Um, but it actually was the same. There was one in the top five list on each one and actually we had a lot more copies sold for science fiction. So, you know, just kind of fascinating because I would have not guessed that. Um, and then to go back to the series versus book, if we were talking about series, um, Harry, the Harry Potter series would have actually won the number one spot for fantasy. Yeah. So, that that would have completely changed the numbers. So, that's why I was just sticking with just one just one book. Yeah. Here we are. I feel like we've got all the background info necessary to take us into the hardest and most complicated part of this conversation. if you're still with us. Thank you. Okay, so let's mix it up with even more specific classification into speculative soft science fiction, which is often categorized as quote unquote feminist science fiction. Okay. And why this is important. All right. So, feminist science fiction is a subgenre that uses speculative, futuristic, or alternate worlds to explore and critique the politics of gender, sexuality, race, and power. It actively subverts traditional maledominated tropes by centering women's experiences and challenging systemic inequalities. So, doing the Lord's work in a nutshell. Yeah. Okay. So, here we go. So, we gave you guys kind of like the rundown on the history of sci-fi uh in general. So, now we're going to give you some of the lowdown on why feminist science fiction exists and why it's important. Okay. So, in the 1970s, women authors, fans, and academics questioned whether science fiction was fulfilling its promise to quote explore explore alternatives or assumptions counter to what we normally believe. As a response, many feminists who were fans and authors of science fiction launched what can be considered the study of feminist science fiction, a field that continually questions and provokes what the genre has been, what it should be, and what it will be. H. So, I love that because it's like it's like leave it to the feminist theorists to be like we're gonna take this one step further and you think that you're examining what could be and the societal implications of these advancements, but you are omitting the perspective of anyone other than predominantly white men. Yeah. Exactly. So you're not really doing that thing that you're saying that you're doing because you're leaving all the rest of us completely out of your analysis. That doesn't make sense. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So many feminists have used science fiction as a way of advancing theory in what Ursula Ka calls thought experiments. So these thought experiments allow us to imagine new realities and envision possible futures specifically as women living under patriarchy. So that's something that you cannot take out, right? So although science fiction can be traced back to Mary Shel's Frankenstein in 1818, science fiction writing has historically been almost entirely dominated by men written by men and for men. So in her introduction to the edited collection, Women of Wonder, science fiction stories by women about women, Pamela Sergeant writes, "It is interesting to note the absence of important female characters in Frankenstein, which introduced a new literary form and set the mold for later science fiction works. Further, Shelley initially published her novel anonymously. She was first credited as the author in 1922, but many still argued that her husband Percy I don't know how you say his last name. Bishy just say Persy Shelly. Yeah, Percy Shelly. I'm like I guess we don't need his like middle or whatever that name is. Middle name first last name must have written the novel. Sergeant notes women writers of science fiction have been in the minority since Mary Shel's time. Science fiction with its emphasis on science and technology, logic, and discovery became associated with masculinity, and it was framed as only being read by men and boys. It was argued that women wouldn't be able to understand the science. But perhaps it is more likely that women didn't read science fiction by men because they could not relate to the He-Man's adventure story. Yeah. And I was like, yeah, totally. It makes perfect sense. Um, the disregard for intersectionality in mainstream highly regarded science fiction urged feminist scholars and authors to carve out their own spaces. So that's so important. It's like you can't separate it. I think, you know, to bring it back to Red Rising because that's really at the end of the day like what we're going to be talking about moving forward. It's like I feel like that is the core of why I think we are enjoying it and why we're able to actually relate to it is the fact that I do not think that Pierce Brown wrote this without an intersectional lens. I think he was intentionally writing it that this way. Yeah. Yeah. Um okay. So this was kind of fascinating to me. So, inaugurated in 1977, Whiz Con was created by a number of feminist authors who were frustrated by their treatment at the annual World Science Fiction Convention, where they were met with mockery and hostility. Whiscon has run continuously since 1977 and remains the world's leading feminist science fiction convention, boasting such guests of honors as Octavia Butler, Susie McGee Charis, Ursula Ka, etc. So, WhizCon has been at the forefront of feminist science fiction. Um, the James Tip Tree Jr. Award originated at WizCon 1991, an annual literary prize that awards science fiction and fantasy works that expand our knowledge of gender. I thought that was really cool. Named after Alice Sheldon's pet name, the award was a reaction to other prominent science fiction awards that were named after men. The Carl Brandon Society was created after discussions at WISCON in 1999. Its goals are to promote representation of people of color in science fiction, fantasy, and horror. The Carl Brandon Society created the Parallax Award which is awarded to works by people of color and the Kindred Award which is awarded to works that address race and ethnicity. So Wizcon has and continues to be crit self-critical and open to hearing the voices of all who attend. And Wizcon is dedicated to attracting people with diverse and strongly held opinions and it continually pushes feminists to think beyond gender and to center race, class, and sexuality. So it's like the reason why I'm including or why I included this was because it's like it's basically like science fiction was like existing in this space where they wanted to examine other cultures, races, you know, like literally there are infinite possibilities. Yet the blind spot was like ignoring everyone other than them on Earth, right? which is crazy. It's crazy. Yeah. Literally. And it's like these people are saying like you can't even examine that appropriately without also taking into account how all these things would affect all of these other people and all of our intersectioning or intersecting identities, you know? Right. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. Wow. So just a few extra things that I wanted to share about that specifically from some influential people in the feminist science fiction space. Okay, so arguably the most prominent figure in feminist science fiction is Joanna Russ, a professor and author. Russ was known for her radical critiques of science fiction and devotion to the genre as a valuable contribution to culture and society. In her seminal essay, the image of women in science fiction, Russ argues that science fiction has completely ignored sex, gender roles, and family structure, and further has fallen into several unimaginative and stereotypical types of stories. In a literature that claims to be about possibility, she argues science fiction has instead replicated systems of oppression and futuristic shine. Yeah. Yeah. I was like, yes, it makes perfect sense. And I think that's why it's like it's a both and situation. It's like science fiction was predominantly written by men for men, centering men, and um you know written for and through the male gaze. Um and so I think that dissuaded women to read it, but then also it's like why would I want to read something that completely like erases our experience? Like Yeah. Hello. Like that wouldn't be enjoyable to read anyway. Yeah. For a lot of people, it's it's just like a surface level superficial character or plot at the end of the day then, you know, or analysis. It's like, yeah, you're supposed to be like imagining, let's just even say a dystopia or utopia without taking into account how that would affect anyone other than you. That doesn't that's very Yeah, it's a shallow analysis, right? Okay. So in her article, American science fiction and the other, Ursula Kayla Gwyn argues that science fiction, American science fiction in particular, is bound up by capitalism and patriarchy and social power structures that alienate and create the other inherently. So that's also important. Yeah. And then one more thing. So following Leguin, Mary Kenny Badami argued for the necessity of feminism in and about science fiction. She begins a feminist critique of science fiction published by extrapolation in 1976 with quote unquote the vis invisible woman quiz in which she challenges the reader to name women science fiction authors. Her central claim is that women have not been important as characters in science fiction, fans of science fiction or as writers of science fiction. So she argues that feminists cannot stop writing about women in science fiction because there's still a long way to go. It's important to dig up the history of feminist science fiction, to remember that history, and to keep writing about old books because people still read them to address backlash, and to move beyond merely having more women characters as a sufficient sign of equality. Like, no, no, no. You can't just throw a lady in there and be like, "Oh, it's great now." Yeah. No. Exactly. This helped me. And like I had no idea like how deep this went until I was lucky enough to take that feminist science fiction literature class in college and was introduced to a lot of these people and um like these people's work and writing and it just made me look at the genre completely differently. That was a paradigm shift for me because I realized that a lot of the things that I previously would not consider science fiction actually were. Um because in these types of um science fiction novels, we're looking for themes like deconstructing gender. So examining whether gender is a biological imperative or a social construct. Um often by imagining worlds with fluid, multiple or absent genders. Yeah. Um challenging patriarchy. So flipping power dynamics to examine how systemic oppression functions or imagining matriarchal societies. And then intersectionality. So exploring how gender intertwines with race, class, sexuality, and disability, etc. with speculative environments. Um, so thinking about that when you go into science fiction as well, it doesn't necessarily need to be like in space like it can it encompasses so much. Yeah. Um, so top selling feminist science fiction reads of all time. Number one sits The Handmaid's Tale by Margaret Atwood. No surprise there. but yet still wasn't classified as se as science fiction when I Googled it. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Okay. You know, I think that's one of the hardest parts right now in this like society and age we live in where everything is so accessible to quote unquote look up is that we're constantly gaslit. And I think that is what makes me crazy. Right. One of the things that makes me crazy cuz it's like you'll tell me in one breath that The Hammy's Tale is not science fiction, but then it's one it's the number one top selling feminist science fiction book ever. Like what? It's like and then it's like it makes you feel like you're crazy. Yeah. You know. Okay. So, number two is The Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula Kayla Gwyn. Number three is Kindred by Octavia E. Butler. Four is The Female Man by Joona R Joanna Russ and five is Woman on the Edge of Time by Marge Piery. So add those to your TBR. I've only read three of them, so I still have two more to go. I've read none. So look at me doing bad. You got to do it. You got to do it. Yeah. Um I think you'd really like Kindred. It's uh there's some time travel stuff in there. That's pretty cool. Yeah. Do you have anything that you want to add to that that you think that I missed or that you just I don't know was like just any any com any comments before we move on? My uh not comment question, but a concern is concern. It is totally like it's fine and it's needed to be able to define feminist science fiction when it is specifically dealing with, you know, the plight of women and what that looks like and the restructuring of a patriarch patriarchal society and matriarchy and like all those different things that that can branch off to. My concern is if it is a it's not necessarily dealing with those themes, but it is a female author with a maybe and or female main character. It being categorized as feminist science fiction when it actually doesn't fall into that category, but because it's written by a woman or as main women character. Therefore, because of the patriarchal society that we live in, men aren't reading it. I mean, and also with that too, with these things being categorized as feminist science fiction, it's like there's pros and cons. Like it's good to have it as a sh genre, but as far as a marketing standpoint, it's a disservice to the genre because then men are taught not to read it. Just as we're taught as women, even on a subconscious level, that sci-fi is not for us. Then then feminist science fiction also isn't for men. And that's not serving anybody but the machine. It's not serving any of us as readers, right? It's not serving me to put off Pierce Brown's Red Rising because I'm a little worried that he's not going to really take a human character into account. You're bringing up the romantic debate but with a different but with a different name. Um, yeah. And and we're going to probably have it with horror and we're going to have it in feminist horror. We're going to have it in every genre. And it's a it's a difficult discussion to have and I think as just we as society in everything you know because it's like we want to see the representation we it's it's it's it has its importance to be categorized but it also has its disservice by categorizing them. Yeah. I mean it's a I agree. I think it's more so about just like if the discussion is happening and the questions being asked to me that means that we're doing our hypothetical job right. It's like I just put here like is it damaging to separate specifically feminist science fiction from mainstream sci-fi in the same way that some people would would argue that it's damaging to separate romanty from fantasy in general. Yeah. Right. Like and I think it's a bothand situation and it can be. I think it is good in some ways because feminist science fiction didn't work so hard to exist that it shouldn't be called what it is. Right. Right. and romantic. I feel like same, but then also it's nice to know I'm going to get some romance with my fantasy if that's what I'm in the mood for, right? So, I don't think that there's anything inherently wrong with having subcategories like within an overarching genre category. The problem lies with again the values that we're placing on those subg genres. And the second mo like I hate to generalize guys but like it would be very few and far between. There was not one man in my feminist science fiction class. We'll just put it that way. Okay. Yeah. It would be very very hardressed to find I think a lot of people in general, not just men, but a lot of people in general right now who would see the label of feminist science fiction on something and pick that up instead of something that didn't have that label on it. in the same genre category. Yeah. Um and I think that that for lack of a better way of putting it sucks because it's like we should all be reading these things. That's it. It's like we should all be reading these things because it is important to understand or at least try to understand how the decisions we make as a society have implications on everyone. Because I think a lot of the reason why we are where we're are we are right now is because that's not happening. Right. Yeah. Exactly. So, good and bad. Good and bad. But I feel like, you know, like I said, if we're having the discussion about it, that's what's important. But I feel like feminist science fiction, I'm glad that it exists, but it's just a bummer to me that not everybody who would go and pick up Dune would go and pick up The Handmaid's Tail, right? You know, because Yeah. I mean, it's important stuff, right? Yeah. Um, okay. So, I feel like we've pretty much covered because my other questions were, you know, what are the real implications of all this in a world that has historically dissuaded women and girls from math and science and told us that we are inherently bad at it. So, I mean, it's huge. Yeah. I I love the seeing your data that you found though in showing that it is rising and it is making a rise and I think it starts with conversations like these or continues with conversations like this and unlearning some of the things that we were taught like oh yeah you don't really like sciency stuff that's not for you whether it be because it is for men or because it's nerdy because we have to give you know validation to that too so much of I mean I think as book people in general so many things we're criticized in a negative tone as being nerdy you know and I'm like over here it's nerdy also I nerd nerd out that's I'm great call me a nerd I do not care that does not offend me you're a nerd for knowing all the statistics on that baseball player's entire life history how is that not nerdy everything has the potential of people to nerd out over and that is a beautiful thing. So, I think um that has helped a lot, I think, with some of these genres becoming more openly mainstream and being talked about is the dstigmatization of being outside the preppy norm, you know. So, and being more accepted. So, I think it works. I think that is also at hand with some of these things is it's a disservice to have all these characters on screen be labeled nerdy and outcasts for liking things like sci-fi or fantasy and yeah so that's like that's almost a whole another discussion you know but then also even more so we're constantly hit with science and math is not for you you know this is a man's world and I would dare to say I think statistically Ally speaking, science is becoming more female dominated. Well, tech has been hard to dominate, but it's been getting better and better. And then AI comes and ruins everything. But yeah. Well, I mean, this is a whole other discussion, too, but definitely something to think about. And it's like the whole like, you know, more women being university educated than men at this point in time. Yeah, the more women infiltrate any field, the more delegitimized in society it becomes here specifically. So, you know, something to keep an eye out for is yes, when the ta when the tables start turning and more women start um, you know, are in science fields, we'll just say, for example, the more the legitimacy of the agencies they work for, etc. will be questioned. suddenly reading, you know, and it's not, oh, it's not real. Like everything is now fantasy is not real anymore. That's not good enough anymore. Yeah. We're going to close that gate and gatekeep it. Yeah. Yeah. So, it's just something to think about. Moving that glass ceiling higher, moving that bar farther. Well, yeah. Because it's like if you do everything you're supposed to do, right? Like let's say you're a little girl and you want to be a scientist and you go against you know everything that you are consistently taught to believe about yourself and choose to enter a field like that where then you have to work that you know that much harder to get that promotion to get that raise to be taken seriously whatever just to realize that once you get there your whole field is then being systematically delegitimized over time because the more women are present in it. It's like that can be crazy making. So it's like it we have to acknowledge that this is what we're working with and actively understand that while trying to liberate our own minds which can be very hard to do. Yeah. Um, so yeah, I think but the conversations start with things like this where it's like, yeah, it might not seem it might not seem that serious, you know, but think about how many times, you know, it's like, let's say you went in as a kid asking the school librarian for a book and like that person chose to give you this book instead of this book. Yeah. Based on nothing other than like the bare minimum information that they had about what you look like or how who you are in the world to them in that moment, you know? And I feel like that can shape a lot of who we grew up to be and think that our reading tastes reflect. So anyway, the point that I came to after doing all this research was like sci-fi, fantasy, who freaking cares? Don't pay attention to it. Literally just like look up some reviews, read them with a grain of salt, or like ask some friends, and then try to just go into it with an open mind. Yeah. because the lines are so blurred anyway. And like, you know, go back and relist to the section of the episode where I break down who got to decide what was different between sci-fi and fantasy to begin with, right? Yep. I'm a whole new woman. Yeah. Yeah. Um Yep. Yeah. And I think, let's see, we already covered that. Yeah. I feel like, you know, all we can do is just welcome the sci-fi people with open arms and be open-minded when reading things like Red Rising and Jurassic Park and be happy when they change our minds. Yeah, exactly. But geez Louise.

Wow. Learning and growing and changing and evolving. It's a beautiful thing. I I wish it for everyone. I wish it for everyone as well. Yeah. Take learn new information and let it expand your mind. Yeah. Yeah. And then get mad and then read more good things. Yeah. Yeah. Don't let it stop you. No, really that you like this all this research that you did, these discussions we've been having even off camera leading up to this and your reframing of science versus fantasy uh has helped tremendously. So, we hope it helped you guys as well. And it makes me think now I got to think about what else have I been, you know, told not to take interest in, you know, like what might I like out there that I'm subconsciously not accepting, you know? Yeah, totally. Or like for some reason we've had like this blind spot or like weird denial around like things we know we like just because we were trained to think we either shouldn't like it or that it's actually something else. Yeah, it's a I feel like it's a smaller section of the internet or maybe one I don't pay attention to of the population of men that are starting to read romance because they also have been told not to bother with it and it's less than, you know, and they're finding out they love that. And I think that's beautiful, too, cuz it's like, you know, like there's there's different things at work on both sides of deconstruction because we're not saying this isn't happening to the men of society as well. It 100% is. So, let's Yeah, we can we can know the genres for mood reading and stuff, but go in with an open mind and let it take you on a journey. And if you don't like it, don't read it again. Yeah. Yeah. Totally. A different book. Yeah. Cuz one one science fiction book is not created equal to them all. Just like fantasy. It's just like everything. Yep. Just like everything. Yeah. Yeah. It's like don't read one science fiction book and not like it and think you don't like it now because that would be like the same thing as you reading one fantasy book or one romance book and not liking it and then thinking you don't like the whole genre, right? Doesn't make sense. Doesn't add up. So, I feel like for me that was a big part of it too where I was like, "Oh, well, if I read Red Rising and I don't like it, I guess like sci-fi is officially just like not my thing." Even though it that doesn't make sense. I literally have almost all the books that I talked about in here on my shelf right now. Like they're behind me. I purposefully put them back here. It's like we can I think all of us are guilty of this feeling like you aren't susceptible to propaganda. Like you aren't. And we all are. And I think that no matter how much we think we've untrained our brains, we still have, like you said, blind spots. We still have things we can unlearn and learn. Yeah. And it's uh it's so trippy. So, I'm h I'm so excited. I'm here for it. I think that's why it clicked in my brain to like have this sci-fi summer because it's like when you're playing a video game and you unlock a whole new world. Like you go down the pipe in Mario and you have a whole different place to explore. It's like I just open up a whole billion more books that I'm I know I'm going to enjoy. I'm not gonna have to like slog through like I've always felt like sci-fi would be like a slog, you know? It's like, no, you've liked it the whole time, you silly goose. You've liked sci-fi the whole time. You didn't even know it. It's like we have to join us. You've liked romance the whole time and you didn't even know it. You know, it goes on all fronts. That's what I love about watching the movies that my husband likes is that it's like half the time I feel like his movies have more romance in them than mine do. I'm like, are you kidding me right now? Like, and since lots of times they're made for boys and or a male audience, they're also, pro tip, more explicit than ours are. So, if you're looking for spice, there you go. Like, it's crazy. It's so funny cuz I'll be sitting there just like, you know, reading my book or whatever and I'll like look up over my book and my husband's watching a cartoon that's like way spicier than whatever I'm reading and I'm like, "Whoa, dude, what's going on over here?" But I'm like, "Interesting." So, it's like it's just kind of funny how it's funny but also not because I feel like it pigeon holes a lot of us into things that thinking we would like or not like and in reality it's just give it a try and see what happens. I'm sure it'll be fine. And if you don't like it, that's fine. Move on to something else. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So, do you have a Smasher Pass sci-fi edition for me? Oh, I made a special thing. So, it's an F Mary kill with a friend also. So, you have to f someone, kill someone, marry someone, and then friend-zone someone basically. Okay. So, this is my own little concoction. Here are the options as follows. Okay. Darth Vader. Okay. Kylo Ren. Okay. Han Solo. Okay. Luke Skywalker. Okay. And what do I have to do? F. Mary. Kill. Friend Zone. Yeah. Okay. Say them again. Darth Vader. Yeah. Kylo Ren. Okay. Han Solo. Luke Skywalker. Okay. Okay. Uh, kill Luke Skywalker. Um, sorry about that. Uh, kill Luke Skywalker. He's like the goodest of the good guys, too. I'm so such a bad person. Um, F Han Solo. Um, Mary, Kylo Ren, and Fred Zone, Darth Vader. It's going to be a fun time. We're gonna be having fun. Literally, that's funny. Mine's pretty similar. Okay, so definitely effing Darth Vader so that I can marry Kylo Ren. Um, and then I am going to friend zone Luke Skywalker and then kill Han Solo because I can't be married. Oh, I I can't give anything away. Sorry, I'm not going to go any further. Um, but also I will say this, but it would be good to have Luke Skywalker on your side as a friend because he does have a lot of powers with the Force. That's true. That's true. I figured out my smasher pass for you because I would like to bring back to the court a reassessment smasher pass. So, this is an old school one from early days and I might have a new opinion. Oh, okay. Okay. So, I don't think yours has changed, but let's say it for the record, Liz. Smash or pass. Darth Maul. Oh, Darth Maul is still a pass for me. Okay. I rewatched episode one and I was like, "Wait, hang on a second." Because I was thinking like, you know, listen, he doesn't fight. He's trying to get Anakin, but he doesn't fight him. Cuz that's what instantly makes me go pass when it's like, you can't best a little 8-year-old boy. Give me a break. Also, why are you fighting an 8-year-old boy, you little wimp? So, I don't know. I can't fully explain it. I'm pretty sure he was taller than I remembered, so that was good. Um, it was just less weird even though he's still he looks like how he looks. It was just a It was a vibe. It was a vibe smash for me. It was better than I because he's really fight he's fighting the adults. He's fighting the wands. Uh, Obi-Wan and the other guy that I can never remember his name. Um, so it was pretty good. It was pretty good, I got to say. So, some people I feel like that was a more po more polarizing Smasher Pass poll that we put up than I originally thought. So, I see you guys. Those of you who are saying smash Darth Maul, I was like, there's no way. I get it now. It's weird, but I get it. Yeah. I mean, I'm not He's really good with that weird lightsaber. Yeah. I mean, I'm never going to say anyone's weird because it's like we all have our stuff for sure. Um, for me, it's just like I can't I don't know. The face paint situation going on. It's I don't think it's a face paint. I think that's just his skin. It's just his skin. Good. It looks like a costume to me. I don't know. It's just right. Yeah, I understand that. I even will say that my algorithm knows me well and did give me for some time after we had that conversation. I feel like some Darth Maul thirst traps and like literally still no. Yeah, I also saw the real guy talking off air before that like on like a real right oddly enough right before we watched it. And it's not necessarily the guy, but he did have an arrogance to him that I vibed with. And he had an accent. I maybe that's the key. I need because I have no idea who plays him. So, I just need to look him up and see. He had very much like a whatever like chill kind of like a chill arrogance like um I'm just going to do this thing like cool, you know? Like he wasn't even like a full-on actor, you know? He was good at martial arts, which I don't really love the martial arts thing, not going to lie. But I don't know. So, it just it just changed the energy and I was into it. So, I was like, "Okay, Darthothy, I like the hood. He can keep the hood on cuz I don't like the horns. It's weird." Yeah, the horns I don't like to There we go, guys. I'm glad that we got that update from you. Yeah, that's nice. I'll be curious to see like who else changes your mind on your journey on your Star Wars journey. Yeah, because there's a lot of characters. I will say you and McGregor as Obi-Wan does it for me. He's one of my favorites. He's like, me that rat tail braid that he has and that terrible [ __ ] ass haircut

him. I will say in the show, the more recent show version. Oh, okay. the the episode one that's all I've rewatched so far and I just can't stop looking at the fuzzy haircut that I'm like and I want to rip off that braid. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I could see that for sure. I mean I love you and McGregor through and through but literally on the Obi-Wan show. Okay, dude. And he's older, too. He was really young in episode one. So that's a older you and McGregor Obie like Yeah. Yeah. Come on. I know. Star Wars summer, too. Star Wars summer. I know you're inspiring me. I'm like, "Hey, maybe I can I can never get enough of Kylo." So, maybe we'll throw some of that on later on today in the background. Yeah, why not? Yeah. Mhm. Yep. All right, you guys. Well, thank you so much for sitting with us and uh listening. I hope you learned something just like we did today. We can all grab sci-fi by the horns and ride it into the sunset. I don't know. Make sure to like, follow, and subscribe anywhere you like your favorite podcast, including YouTube. We're also on Tik Tok and Instagram. We're besties in the books podcast everywhere. Listen, if you listen this long, just subscribe. Come on, just join the fam. Join our sci-fi summer. Tell us your favorite sci-fi recommendations if you have any. And we will see you not only next Tuesday, but Friday as well. Friday for Red Rising. Bye.