Lab to Market Leadership with Chris Reichhelm

Academia versus Startup | Dr Priya Perumal

• Lab to Market Leadership with Priya Perumal • Season 1 • Episode 11

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In this episode of ‘Lab to Market Leadership,’ Dr. Priya Perumal, a leading expert in construction materials and Chief Scientific Officer at C2CA, discusses the contrasts between university labs and startup environments. Learn about the unique challenges and opportunities that come with moving from academia to the commercial sector. Dr. Perumal provides practical advice and shares her personal journey, offering invaluable guidance for researchers considering this transition. Tune in to understand how to bridge the gap between academic research and market success.

00:00 The Role of a Chief Scientist in a Startup

00:49 Introduction to the Lab to Market Leadership Podcast

01:18 Guest Introduction: Dr. Priya Perumal

03:14 Priya's Initial Impressions of Startup Life

05:56 Comparing Academia and Industry

13:41 The Importance of Practical Applications in Research

24:46 Exploring the Role of Chief Scientist in a Startup

26:21 Balancing Academic and Startup Responsibilities

28:38 Navigating the Challenges of Funding and Team Management

31:19 Differences Between Academia and Industry

36:19 Advice for Aspiring Chief Scientists

42:29 The Importance of Diversity and Mentorship

47:39 Conclusion and Final Thoughts


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Podcast Production: Beauxhaus


Priya Perumal:

As a chief scientist, the more challenging part would not be, uh, that you are working in the science, but it's more about keeping the team together and making them focused on one particular, uh, objective, because the whole team has to work for one piece of, uh, um, objective, or the focus point would be, uh, very clear in the startup, which is different In academia, it is difficult for a researcher also to be like that. We get distracted in several things normally as a researcher when we are developing some product. We may get several ideas. Uh, so it is important that, uh, as a CSO, the chief scientist has to keep the team together and work on that particular objective. So we grow together.

Chris Reichhelm:

Welcome to the Lab to Market Leadership Podcast. Too many advanced science and engineering companies fail to deliver their innovations from the lab to the market. We're on a mission to change that. My name is Chris Reichhelm, and I'm the founder and CEO of Deep Tech Leaders. Each week we speak with some of the world's leading entrepreneurs, investors, corporates, and policy makers about what it takes to succeed on the lab to market journey. Join us. If you're an academic or if you're a senior researcher inside a university and you're thinking of joining an advanced science or engineering deep tech startup, then you need to listen to this week's podcast, that journey from academia into the professional world, particularly into a startup. is a very particular type of journey. It's one that many have made and it's one that many have grappled with. And so this week I want to deal with that and helping me understand the nature of that journey. is Dr. Priya Perumal. Priya is a civil engineer by background. She's got a PhD in construction materials. She's a senior researcher and academic at the University of Oulu in Finland and she's also the chief scientific officer of a university spinout called C2CA based in the Netherlands. And they're focused on the recycling of concrete. I'm hoping that Priya is going to help all of us better understand the nature of this journey, the challenges, the obstacles, and I suppose some of the similarities that may exist between these two environments as well. Let's get into it. Priya, so many lab to market companies start life inside of universities. And, uh, and you know, the nature of what they're doing, that's not surprising. If you look at the nature of the talent that's inside so many of these companies too, you find a lot of people from research who started life inside of universities. And you've had that journey too. So I'm really excited to speak with you and learn more about what that journey is like. Can you start me off and share with me the impressions you had of what a startup would actually be like before you joined C2CA.

Priya Perumal:

Okay. Thanks for asking me this question. I would be, uh, excited to answer it. Um, before joining C2CA, this was not my first experience in a startup. So I was involved in a startup, uh, called SafeRock, uh, which is based in Stavanger, or now it is called Cemonite. Uh, they were trying to transform mine tailings into sustainable cements. So I was partially involved with them. Like 20 percent of my time was given to this startup as a technical advisor. And I do visit them once in three months and I spend a week there. So this was a very great, uh, uh, opportunity for me to start with. So I just got an insight, like how a startup life is. But like you may know, not every startup are same, right? So in Cemonite, they had a dedicated lab and they had many researchers already working there. So to me, it didn't look anything different from what I used to do in university as an academic. So, um, it was not so, uh, like scary or, uh, something like how we used to uh, think about, at least I used to think about a startup in that way, that it is, uh, uh, it is unstable. Of course, it is true, uh, that a startup life could be unstable, that you always have to be behind funding, and maybe your employment is not long enough, uh, so you should be ready to face those challenges. But also the reward is high, right? When you go successful, then it is also, uh, so, uh, personal and you feel it like, okay, this is my success. Unlike in corporates where it is like a big group of people, uh, and maybe when something happens as a big success, you may not feel it personally, but being in a startup with few people working in a team, you, it's like a family. So you, you just being like four or five people. in the initial stage with one aim and you all are putting too much effort on that and then you get, you create something and you see the impact of that, uh, that's so rewarding. Uh, I can't say more, like you have to experience it.

Chris Reichhelm:

Yeah. But it wasn't actually that different than, than the impressions you had. And I guess based on what you've just said there, you were doing research in the lab and, uh, at the university. Uh, you had this exposure early on to this other startup. They had a lab. There are other researchers doing research and, uh, obviously each startup is going to be a little different, but in the early phase, especially when they're still developing or defining the solution, there's a lot of research that's still going on.

Priya Perumal:

Yes.

Chris Reichhelm:

And so your, and so your sense was that actually it wasn't that different. Yes. Is that right?

Priya Perumal:

Yes. It was not so different. Uh, especially I would say this also depends on your role, right? So in the earlier startup that I joined, I was a technical advisor. So, uh, it's more like I have to do the similar, uh, kind of, uh, um, supervision and help them to develop some, uh, technical, uh, products or some inputs for what they are doing, or if they are stuck somewhere, then they need my advice on that and those things. So it was not so different from what I was doing as a research group leader in academia.

Chris Reichhelm:

That's interesting.

Priya Perumal:

Yes, and when I come to C2CA, uh, it is also, uh, was like more or less similar what I have seen in the initial stages because this, as you know, is a spinoff from TU Delft, so there was some patent already, a few patents already, but there is also some, um, some questions, open questions that I was to, um, or I had to handle in the initial stage. Which was bit, I think it, uh, it, uh, seemed like a huge responsibility on me, um, being like, you know, in executive role, then, uh, it, which was also the first time that I'm taking such a responsibility. And the first challenge that I would say is like, uh, in academia, uh, you have the, uh, you, you, you feel like you are playing in the safe ground, right? You know that you do some innovation and you know that it is gonna be published and it's gonna be verified in several stages if it has to go to the market. But when you are in a startup or any industry, you say, You do something, you say something, it's gonna be there in the market soon. It's not like you are just saying some fake promises or you are not saying something like you are, um, like, uh, making a dream land or something. It's like a real life. So I had that fear in the initial stages, being coming from academia to industry. Okay, I can't say things that I don't know 100 percent true. I can't say things that, uh, I'm not sure about. So, uh, which was, uh, some, something that I learned, but also then, uh, this is also things that I have to work together with the commercial and business development, uh, people because it's also not that like, uh, you know, um, like, uh, 100 percent it has to work before you go and test it in the field.

Chris Reichhelm:

So, let me stop you there.

Priya Perumal:

Yeah.

Chris Reichhelm:

This is so, this is really interesting. Really interesting. So, did you feel like you had more freedom inside the university to make claims that weren't potentially proven? Or did you feel you had less freedom to make those claims compared to a startup?

Priya Perumal:

Um, I, I would say that, um, yes, in university, at least the preliminary studies, what you do, uh, before going to the, uh, main experimentation, uh, yeah, you can take chances. You can take chances and you can always also report that it failed. And you can always say that, okay, uh, at this setup and this laboratory condition, this work, but maybe it is not possible to be used in any other different situations. But when you are in industry, you should be sure that it's gonna work in any situation. And when you are promising your clients, then you have to be sure because it's also your reputation, right? You cannot promise things that you are not sure about. Yeah.

Chris Reichhelm:

Yeah. So let me ask again. So the point you're making I think is an excellent one here. If you're going to be making claims to clients around the performance of a particular material or a platform or whatever it is, you have to be sure of your claims if you want to build their, if you want to win their trust.

Priya Perumal:

Exactly.

Chris Reichhelm:

How you also, so does that limit how much communication you're going to have with clients about your technology in the early phases? Because you're still exploring, you still have to research and explore and make your hypotheses. And feel comfortable to make mistakes.

Priya Perumal:

Yeah.

Chris Reichhelm:

How do you get that balance right?

Priya Perumal:

Uh, this is nice because, uh, these days, clients also understand things. So, and also I should, uh, thank, I should be thankful for the field that I'm working because it's in the sustainability and, uh, low carbon conflict, right? So people are talking about the climate change and the climate action, and they need some solution. So, uh, all I have to do is, uh, be open to my clients and say, like, see, this is what I have achieved. And I, I feel, or I have the, uh, faith that this could go to this extent, and we can try it together. So clients are open to accept it and they are really, uh, or into it. And they also want to explore things, uh, to reduce their carbon emission in their products. So, uh, the market is good for this field. So it's in that sense, it's good that I can be, all I have to do is I have to open and I have to be, uh, true and say things that, uh, okay, if I'm not sure, then I would say that, uh, I have done this and I'm 80 percent sure about it, but we can try it together.

Chris Reichhelm:

Sure, sure. So that, that degree of openness.

Priya Perumal:

Yes.

Chris Reichhelm:

And making sure that you're really setting very clear expectations.

Priya Perumal:

Exactly.

Chris Reichhelm:

And being as honest as you can about your feelings on where a particular platform or material is in terms of performance and I suppose, you know, you operate in the net zero game with building materials companies who are desperately trying to bring down their emissions, their carbon emissions. So this is a big problem. They don't get this right. They're going to have to pay fines.

Priya Perumal:

Yeah.

Chris Reichhelm:

And they may wind up losing market share over time. So there's a race on. So I think in areas it's, it sounds like in areas where the problem is, is, is acute enough, they may be more willing to experiment with you.

Priya Perumal:

Mm hmm, yep.

Chris Reichhelm:

And to, and to, and to say, if you're 80 percent sure right now, that may be okay. No one else has anything better right now, so we're willing to engage.

Priya Perumal:

like, if I have a strategy and I could explain them, okay, this is my, this is the strategy that I propose, so we can also reach that 100 percent in seven months, then they are okay with it. They are ready to try it. It's more like, uh, uh, I should have some plans and. It's a hypothesis that I should be able to prove. So this is the challenge that I have now, uh, as a chief scientist here. Like, uh, I have to go more into the finds.

Chris Reichhelm:

I get that.

Priya Perumal:

Mm hmm.

Chris Reichhelm:

Now, let me ask another question. In, so you went through your education, you get your PhD, you become a researcher, you become an academic. Where do you learn how to do the kind of research that is going to be relevant at the commercial level? Are there particular systems or frameworks, ways of working that, that the university environment teaches you and that are applicable within, within a professional environment, much less a startup.

Priya Perumal:

So this has, uh, many different level of answers. I can start, uh, saying it one by one. So the first thing is my basic education is on civil engineering. You know, it's the civil engineers are those who are there to help the community, right? So, uh, that, that this training started from my undergrad and, uh, that more, it's more about application engineering. So this is what was my base. So I took this course because I love to do it. I want to see something. And initially after my undergrad, I was put up with the software company for two years and, uh, I was coding and I was not happy doing it because I know you can also make impact by doing coding and creating some products out of it. But for me, uh, from the early stage, uh, I get enthusiastic to see the things physically when I do. Uh, something to the community. Either I build a bridge or I build some, uh, irrigation system or something. I want to see things happen in my eyes or I should feel it. So, uh, so I had to quit that because I was not so happy about just, uh, having a computer and coding. And then I took up the research, uh, because I want to also educate myself to do, uh, things, uh, that, uh, would help the community, because I, I felt like I need to acquire more knowledge. And, uh, during those days, uh, I was doing my PhD in Indian Institute of Technology, uh, Madras, that's Chennai. And, uh, prefaces there, they always insist on practical applications. It's not just like, you know, research. Um, I was doing my PhD, uh, together with a mining company, so it is more about that they want to apply that solution in the company. Um, so it's always like, uh, um, all my research was application oriented. And then I came to Europe, and it's so awesome in Europe, even if you apply for a funding, you always have to, uh, prove to the funding agency how it is going to be practically helpful for some industry. Or it is even better if you already have an industrial partner in your proposal. So, uh, researchers are always trained in that way. Of course, there are also some funding that gives you freedom to do basic science, but most of the funding for the academicians come for practical applications. So, I am, or, uh, I still am blessed to get such fundings to do something that I'm passionate about, uh, which is to give back to the society and to do something impactful to the society. Uh, so, uh, all my life I, I have been trying to do this thing, so it was not so difficult for me to adapt to this condition.

Chris Reichhelm:

Yeah. Yeah. But the point you're making there is on the education. Yeah. is that you're partnering very early on with, you know, you, well, A, you're trying to make it applicable. And so, uh, and then you're partnering with other organizations, private companies. And are they teaching you the ways, are they teaching you how you apply your understanding in ways that they would recognize? So, when you're trying to bring innovation to market, uh, you need to be researching in a particular way. You need to be documenting things in a particular way. There are certain systems you need to be followed, uh, you need to follow that they will recognize. Is that what they're teaching you?

Priya Perumal:

Uh, see Chris, uh, this is also something like, uh, based on your personality. So, uh, there are also academicians and scientists who are, uh, happy to be in academia and want to do things that, uh, fit you a better position in academic role, uh, which may not need you to think in a way that you will be, uh, using your applications practically in the industries, right? And they need to prove something, uh, so much into the basic science or, uh, they have to go in depth into the, uh, into the research. But, uh, as a person, uh, I, I, I am interested in doing things that practically is applicable. So it is also the personality. So it's not mean somebody trained me to do it or the industry is asking me to do it. It is a thing that excites me. that I want to do.

Chris Reichhelm:

I understand that.

Priya Perumal:

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Chris Reichhelm:

I understand that. But the ways in which you do research, let me ask the question a different way. The ways in which you do research, are they similar ways in which a leading organization, a potential industrial partner, or a potential customer would do research? Are the ways you do research similar to the ways other private sector organizations do research?

Priya Perumal:

Um, there are a lot of difference, uh, and also some similarities. Uh, I can say some example. For example, like, uh, if you see a cement industry want to find an alternative for cement, maybe for them the important part is like, uh, the cement should be, uh, like, should be of same performance of what they already have as cement in the market now. Right? But as an academician, I want to know why it is behaving the same. I want to know like, uh, the, uh, Y part, but in industry, it is like, uh, uh, how do I make it? Okay. I do this and this will give me a similar product. Then it's okay. It's performance is good. It's okay. But in academic, we, we want to know like, uh, uh, why and the science behind it, how this is happening this way and those details, right? And the industry don't want to know like, uh, uh, these informations behind the scene. Yeah.

Chris Reichhelm:

Okay. That's interesting.

Priya Perumal:

Yeah.

Chris Reichhelm:

So industry cares a little bit less about the whys, I suppose, but surely they must need some of that insight as well. Their R& D departments, assuming they have R& D departments.

Priya Perumal:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, they want to know this part because, uh, if they could improve the performance, they can do it only if they know the whys. Of course, the R& D part would be doing this. Uh, but most, mostly it is more about like the performance. So that is important for the industry than to understand it more technically.

Chris Reichhelm:

Okay. That's interesting. So that's another really interesting insight here that. You know, industry is more interested in the performance and I suppose the stability, the consistency of that performance. If we test this material every time, every time it's going to deliver the same performance. It's going to meet these metrics, whatever, as opposed to necessarily the why. We just want to make sure it works, but as an academic, that curiosity leads you to almost forces you to understand the why.

Priya Perumal:

But I can also say that this is different in startup. I see that startup also works, uh, both as an academic and also as industry. So they want to know both like why and also the hows, because, uh, they, they need to always convince the investors, right? They don't have their own money as like in corporate that they can go on, uh, introduce a new product. So they also, they always have to convince their investors. They have, they have to explain the investors that how this is happening, why this is happening and those things. So, I feel that in startup, they also go in depth into the science part because there are stakeholders who want to know that.

Chris Reichhelm:

And the investors often have science or technical backgrounds.

Priya Perumal:

Exactly.

Chris Reichhelm:

And so they want to understand some of the basics around the whys.

Priya Perumal:

Yes.

Chris Reichhelm:

As opposed to some of the corporates, I guess, who just want to understand, who want to be, who want to be convinced that it works. That's, that's interesting. And I think if we look at the tensions that often exist between startups and the market, or even between, let's say, commercial executives and research executives within the same startups, You can find this tension between the researchers who are really interested in understanding the whys and the more commercial oriented executives who don't care. I just want to get this thing to market. So that's,

Priya Perumal:

it's a, I would say both are very important because Uh, for me, before joining a startup or any industry, uh, I always feel as a scientist that I should know 100 percent that this works and being a person who's, uh, enthusiastic about applying my, uh, results in the market, I always want to know, like, several level of testing is needed before I apply it in the market. But, uh, I, I'm also convinced when I hear from the commercial executives and also from, uh, business developers that, um, if you keep thinking, right, you don't have time to change this, uh, uh, climate issues. You don't have so much of time. You have to apply it. You have to check how this works. You have to go for it. We have to be brave. We have to check the things and yeah, of course, we have to play safe, but at the same time we have to keep going. It's not like you have to wait until you are proving it a hundred percent, yeah?

Chris Reichhelm:

So, does that mean that you can't always have to figure out why, to the extent that you would ordinarily wish?

Priya Perumal:

Yeah. And, uh, there is always the option that you can go from the, uh, applications that, uh, that don't, uh, or they are not so, uh, difficult to change. For example, in my field, uh, we can go for, like, pavement blocks, which is not a structural element. So it don't affect anything if we are trying something new or a new material in such cases. So we get some insights like how it performs in different climates and things. So yeah, we have to go for it.

Chris Reichhelm:

Yeah. Yeah. That's, that's a really interesting discussion, Priya. Tell me a little bit, let's move on a little bit. Tell me a little bit about the role of chief scientist. Within a startup, what is the, as you understand it, you're living it because you're currently a chief scientist, what is the role of chief scientist within a startup?

Priya Perumal:

Um, I can define it that way that, uh, you should be a seller of your technology. So, uh, for me, um, my role is like, uh, uh, as it is like, uh, beginning stage of the startup. Uh, I can't say that it is just a CSO role for me. I, I will be in business meetings and I'm also doing, uh, The technology development and I'm also then, um, in the investor meeting. Uh, pitching the idea. So, uh, it's more like, uh, selling the technology that we develop in the, uh, in the firm, right? So that is what I'm doing, but I do also have, uh, um, communication with the academic partners. And I do have my own team with a few researchers working for me in different academic universities. So it's also about collaboration with the different research and Development Labs. Uh, that's also part of my job and, uh, also then bringing funding to develop further technology, so I write proposals for European Union funding or some local governmental funding. So, so this is more also I do in academic field, right? Uh, and also I, I felt like when I started this job, it's, um, I started feeling like the academic job that I did was also like a startup, uh, at least in Finland. Because, uh, in academia in Finland, uh, you don't get a salary from the university, you have to bring your own salary. So it's more like I was running. Yes, it is more like I was running my own startup. So I have to bring salary for myself and also for my team members. So I keep writing funding proposals to the European Union and national funding. So then. I have to, uh, be like running a startup. So it, it, it looked more similar.

Chris Reichhelm:

That's really interesting. So you had this almost self employed type status within the university. You've got to, you're, the only way you're going to eat is if you secure grant funding. So you have to secure, you've got to secure the confidence and the interest of these bodies who are, you know, handing out grants, interested in research, interested in applying that research to specific areas. You've got to find those and then go and, uh, and then go and secure that finance. That's really interesting.

Priya Perumal:

And that's very, you know,

Chris Reichhelm:

spiritually, that's very akin to a startup too.

Priya Perumal:

Yeah. Yeah. So I always had this feel it's like running a startup also in academia because I do the similar like technology development together with industries and I have my own research team, which I bring funding for their salary. So it's more like having my own startup.

Chris Reichhelm:

Okay. So you've got your own team. So to go back, so you know the role for a chief scientist for you, you are, you're developing the technology.

Priya Perumal:

Mm-Hmm.

Chris Reichhelm:

still, it sounds like you're, so, in that respect, it feels a bit like a CTO role.

Priya Perumal:

Um, yeah.

Chris Reichhelm:

Uh, so, so you're developing the technology. You are sitting in on business development meetings.

Priya Perumal:

Mm-Hmm., Chris Reichhelm: um, listening to what Um, giving them confidence about the direction you guys are headed in technologically. You are supporting the financing process. Uh, and then you are collaborating with the different researchers, not just within C2CA, but within the universities of which you're associated, uh, to, to, I suppose, marshal their efforts and resources so that it benefits

Speaker 3:

the

Chris Reichhelm:

company in some way. That, you know, that's an awful, you know, that's a lot of work. That's a lot of activity, but I can see how actually blending technology development with some of those areas is beneficial.

Priya Perumal:

Yeah. It's so, um, it's so interesting also for me to have this role, uh, because, uh, I got to, uh, uh, I got to know a lot of, uh, people from different other, uh, industries as well. After getting this role, like, uh, my contacts with the different cement industries, not only that, but also, uh, investors. I really value those, uh, uh, communication with the, uh, People who are in R& D or investors from the different, uh, uh, industrial sector, uh, which, um, increased my skillset also about like negotiation and pitching and, uh, my confidence on, uh, talking about my technology and yeah, these are, uh, something I, uh, acquired new after getting into startup. Um, um, yeah, I would say like also in academia, what happened was like, I was in this role in Finland as an academic researcher for like six years. And I know, like, like I said, that there are its own challenges, like bringing in money and having your own team and To grow in academia, then you have to keep running for this funding and there is no limit like how many funding you need or how many people you have to have in your group or how many articles you have to publish in a year. So there is always this rat race, you can say. Um, you keep doing it right, uh, but at some point you also get saturated or comfortable with that, what you were doing. And I'm a person also like always looking for challenge or I don't know how other people might see, like, uh, she always bring, uh, or go for some trouble So I, uh, , I like to, uh, or I wanted to explore something new and challenging and, uh, uh, C2CA uh, didn't disappoint me on that. So it gave me Well, you did that. Yeah.

Chris Reichhelm:

No, that's great.

Priya Perumal:

Yeah.

Chris Reichhelm:

That's really great. How did, you know, from these different interactions you've had with these different stakeholders, uh, some of which you wouldn't get if you were focused exclusively on research within a university, how did these interactions change your view of the, of the technology development process if at all? Hmm.

Priya Perumal:

So when in, when I'm in academia, I do work with industries, but it's like I'm developing some product for a different industry, right? So they are like my clients and I'm developing a product for them. And, uh, uh, most probably we will be having a project together and, uh, uh, maybe they will be either developing a patent or just getting a consultancy work from us. But in this case, I am the person who is developing a product and I'm selling my product, not my, just my, uh, knowledge or idea of developing a product to somebody. So it's like, uh, uh, you have the chance to develop your own product. And also you're, you are pitching on, uh, or you are, uh, telling about like how, how good it is and how impactful it is to, uh, the, uh, to the investors. And it gives you a, uh, a great feeling that, uh, how people are valuing your product as an investor. And so that's different from what I have been dealing as an academician, right? So people come with requirements when they come to me as an academician that, okay, I have a problem with this product, and do you have a solution? Would you like to develop some product out of our materials and this and that? But here I define my product. I have the freedom, like, okay, which direction I want to take my, uh, startup and which type of, uh, field I want to, uh, create an impact. Mm-Hmm, . Yeah.

Chris Reichhelm:

Yeah. So, yeah. That's interesting. So, uh, if I can summarize inside the university, people are coming to you because of your expertise, but also for your capability, the capability of you and your research team.

Priya Perumal:

Yep.

Chris Reichhelm:

They want to buy that service.

Priya Perumal:

Mm hmm.

Chris Reichhelm:

from you for their benefit. Inside a company, it's not about you. It's all about the company. Yes. It's all about the performance and the product, uh, uh, stability and how it's going to integrate with their, uh, you know, with their systems and products and solutions. Um, and so does that make you, does that make you sharper as a, you know, does that make you more ruthless?

Priya Perumal:

Um.

Chris Reichhelm:

In some of your decisions and in some of your thinking around what's going to work and what's not going to work.

Priya Perumal:

Mmm.

Chris Reichhelm:

Does it make you more impatient?

Priya Perumal:

Uh, not really. I, I, I like this because, uh, uh, okay, so this is a company and we have a vision, uh, and, uh, we have some goals and, uh, we have this team, we fixed this, uh, goals and vision together. So I know, like, where we are heading. Uh, this is something I choose it and I want to develop, right? And then, uh, the thing is, I want By

Chris Reichhelm:

joining, by joining the company, you choose to develop this product. Yes.

Priya Perumal:

So, uh, I have that in my hand now that I want to develop and I want to create this impact. So we have a clear picture how and where this is heading into and what kind of impact it's gonna Create to the society and whatever. So, uh, in, in, in university it's more like, okay, uh, I, I have a set of, uh, uh, like, uh, knowledge or the skill set, but I can work in different field and I can work on different materials. So it's not like I'm focused on particular thing and I won't do anything else. I just, uh, will be, uh, developing this particular thought. For example, I was working on mining and urban mining residues, which means I can work on recycled concrete, I can work on any mine tailings, I can work on municipal solid waste incinerated residues, so there is a lot of options. But here we have a focus. Okay, I'm gonna work on this recycled concrete and I'm gonna make it work in the field and I have in next year, this is gonna be in the field, in the market that people gonna use it. So, I, I, I like that because then this is practical that I, I'm not just, uh, doing bits and pieces of different things, but I have a focus on doing something that's going to work. Yeah.

Chris Reichhelm:

Yeah. If you were, um, I like the way you framed that. That's, I think, you know, I think that's, uh, I think that's very insightful. Um, if you were speaking to other would be chief scientists or other researchers inside of universities or other labs. Who are thinking about getting into a startup, who are thinking about joining a startup. What advice would you give them, or what, what would you share with them? What are the big lessons?

Priya Perumal:

So, uh, straight away, it is not for everyone, for sure. Uh, so, um, if you don't, uh, like this, uh, uncertainty, then it's not for you. Uh, you should be able to sustain that. There would be tension at times. Uh, you, you may know that when I joined C2CA that, uh, I was said that I may not have a salary after a year until otherwise if we close the funding. So There is always the risk of like, we have to keep finding the funding, but at least in Finland, it's the same case. Like I said, I have to keep running for my funding. Uh, but, uh, normally you get it for four years, so at least it is, uh, that way. Uh, so, uh, this is also same in the industrial setup, uh, that you have to be in that tension of bringing the money, especially if it is a startup. Um, and, uh, uh, as a chief scientist, the more challenging part would not be, uh, that you are working in the science, but it's more about keeping the team together and making them focused on one particular goal. objective, because the whole team has to work for one piece of, uh, um, objective or the focus point would be, uh, very clear in the startup, which is different in academia, or it is difficult for a researcher also to be like that. We get distracted in several things, normally as a researcher, when we are developing some product, we may get Several ideas. Uh, so it is important that, uh, as a CSO, the chief scientist has to keep the team together and work on that particular objective so we grow together. Um, so this would be my, uh, advice if somebody wants to take up the journey that I am now.

Chris Reichhelm:

And how do you, so again, I love that last point you've just made. Because, from many clients over the years, I have heard how difficult It is to keep researchers focused

Priya Perumal:

on

Chris Reichhelm:

the core objectives. How do you do it?

Priya Perumal:

So now, uh, I don't have a very big team, so it's not so tough for me to keep them, uh, on track. So we used to communicate frequently and we agreed to tasks that are with some deadlines. Uh, we, yeah, it's more about communicating, uh, frequently with them and be clear on the objectives that is expected from them. It's not so tough, and I'm also a people person, naturally, so, uh, it's tough. It was not so tough for me. Yeah.

Chris Reichhelm:

Yeah. Yeah. But that you want, and I suppose, well, let me ask it instead of supposing, does it matter where you are in terms of your technology development? Um, and what I mean by that is at the very early stage, when you're trying to create solutions, you're still defining your solution. It almost feels like you need a little bit of that distraction in your researchers to, you know, to find some solutions. We can't always work in a linear

Priya Perumal:

path to

Chris Reichhelm:

innovate. You know, some of the, you know, we've heard so many times of innovation coming off from, coming about because of, you know, because we, It went down a different road, a different path, because we got distracted. But as, so is it, so are those distractions more valuable at that early stage? But when you are progressing along the TRL journey, let's say you're getting to six and seven, You're thinking about commercialization soon. Does the, are the distractions much less helpful then?

Priya Perumal:

Yes. Um, I mean, you put it in a right way. Uh, actually, yeah, we do need that distraction, but it should not be like unplanned. It should be something that, uh, we should have, uh, Planned way of distraction. So we should know like, uh, we should know the limits and also in which direction the distraction should be. It's not like randomly you can get distracted in different, uh, different prospects. So, um, yeah, this, this is what I said, like as a chief scientist, you should also able to direct your team in a way that, so they will have still freedom to explore within the limits. Like if a researcher is focusing on uh, particular element, then they can, they have their freedom. Uh, so I don't say how, how they have to do it. I don't say like, they have to follow this route. They can take any route, but they have to reach that destination. So that, that's important. So they cannot get distracted to reach different paths, uh, I mean, different places, so the place, the destination should be that, but they can take different routes so they can have that distraction. Yeah.

Chris Reichhelm:

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. So, so you give them some flexibility, some freedom, regardless, I guess, of where they're at on that TRL journey. Yeah. They can play a little bit, but ultimately, especially as you progress further along, as you get closer to commercialization, you need that objective in there.

Priya Perumal:

Especially for a startup. We have to get to this point. We may not have that luxury of, uh, uh, having, uh, that many distractions, right? Because it's like a investor's funding and we are answerable for that. Yeah.

Chris Reichhelm:

Yeah. Yeah. Let me ask, um, a different type of question. How has it been as a woman in this field as a chief scientist? Is it an, is it an issue? Is it a thing? Is it a silly question to even have to ask? How do you feel about it?

Priya Perumal:

No, that's a great question. Uh, I appreciate that you asked it. Um, so, um, I mean, in, uh, in general, I can say, like, uh, in civil engineering, in my field, there is not many women, um, and, um, I, uh, I would, I really want to say, uh, my, uh, mentor, from the University of Oulu, Professor Mirja Illikainen, and she was my mentor from the time I joined the university. She was a great inspiration for me, because it's also, you know, like when you join a new place from a different country and a culture, you should feel welcomed. And, uh, her team is very multi, uh, cultural. So, uh, you don't feel like, uh, you are in, uh, some alien place or you are, you are not treated some, uh, somewhere like, uh, you don't belong or something. So there is always very good, uh, diversity and, uh, inclusiveness in the group. Uh, so that gives you also the freedom and confidence to think more and you want to perform better, uh, in that. kind of environment. And, uh, she still was the person who's, uh, because I was so confused the first time when I wanted to join a startup when I was still an academic person, uh, because I had to then maybe quit a job to join another one. So I went to her to ask, like, okay, I got an option like this. Uh, so she said that, what's stopping you to try that? Just go So, uh, everybody needs such a person. In their life who, uh, just tap on your shoulder and say like, okay, you can do it. So, uh, because, uh, I can't, I mean, I don't know what I would have done being in her position as a, uh, like, um, a mentor or a supervisor, if one of my team member wants to join another job, maybe I would have felt like, okay, you are going to get distracted, I'm going to lose this employee or something, but she always felt like, okay, it's your growth, you have to try it. So, uh, it's very important and, uh, she always also a person saying that as a woman you have to Do this. You have to be an example, uh, doing things for the future generation to see you and get an example from you on things. Uh, seeing that also in C2CA, uh, among the executive role, we have, uh, three executive role and I'm, Uh, the women in representative in that executive committee and, uh, CEO of the company now, Thomas, he is also very, uh, keen about having that kind of inclusiveness and gender equality in the company. So, uh, I think these days it is, uh, um, becoming better, uh, for women to be in Any place, uh, to have that growth ladder. It's more about like, uh, getting there and, uh, don't doubt ourself and just do it. Yeah.

Chris Reichhelm:

Uh, I think it's interesting. The point you, you mentioned, uh, it's about being a role model. Yes. Because we're still not there in terms of the, you know, in terms of diver in terms of the distribution of diversity across these different fields, particularly in engineering. Yes. It's still heavily dominated by men across all different sectors, but, uh, uh, so it's interesting that you feel and that your mentor, uh, communicated the importance of being a role model. Yes. For others. And it's, uh, that feels important.

Priya Perumal:

Yeah. And she's been one for many women like me. So uh, it's so inspiring about her story.

Chris Reichhelm:

And it works, obviously.

Priya Perumal:

And even now when I sit for different meetings, I could see that I would be only women in many of the meetings. So yeah. I feel it, yeah, that there needs to be some changes in the organizations.

Chris Reichhelm:

Are you starting to see it across industrial partners and customers that you're speaking to?

Priya Perumal:

Yes. It's especially because this is construction field, right? So yeah. But if I sit for some R& D meeting, even in the industry. The R& D team mostly comprises of a lot of women, so there is that clear difference, like when it comes to business development, commercial and plant operations, then it's more like men, even investment.

Chris Reichhelm:

Yeah. But R& D, it's a little better.

Priya Perumal:

Yeah

Chris Reichhelm:

well, that's a start at least.

Priya Perumal:

We are brainies.

Chris Reichhelm:

That's right. That's right.

Priya Perumal:

Yeah.

Chris Reichhelm:

That's a start. That's great. Priya, I've really enjoyed this. Thank you so much for joining me.

Priya Perumal:

Oh, that's my pleasure. Thank you, Chris.

Chris Reichhelm:

You've been listening to the Lab to Market Leadership Podcast, brought to you by Deep Tech Leaders. This podcast has been produced by Beauxhaus. You can find out more about us on LinkedIn, Spotify, Apple, or wherever you get your podcasts.

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Chris Reichhelm

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