Taking Over From a Founder CEO: Ian Temperton on Scaling Plastic Energy

Ian Temperton became CEO of Plastic Energy in 2021 after five years as Chief Investment Officer.

He stepped in as the company moved from pilot to industrial scale – executing multi‑million euro projects with SABIC and TotalEnergies.

This is what happens when the external CEO works.

Ian spent five years learning the business before taking over. The shift came mid-deployment, when execution discipline and governance became critical.

The team stayed. The focus changed: from raising capital to deploying it.

The core challenge: delivering complex projects on petrochemical sites while scaling the organisation to match.

The proof: nearly a decade of continuous operations in Spain.

The lesson: separate innovation from deployment, and rebalance rigour as you scale.

Essential listening for anyone moving from pilot to industrial scale in climate hardware.

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Podcast Production: Beauxhaus

Transcript

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The organisation had to grow a lot in order to deliver, play its part in delivering two significant construction projects. So you're, you're sort of growing the organisation to do that at the same time as doing it. Um, uh, we happened to also take on certainly the two construction projects that have now just been completed, um, uh, were started or executed through both the, the COVID era, remember that, um, and, um, and what happened to all industrial supply chains when, uh, Russia first invaded the Ukraine. So, um, uh, that added some, some very distinct, if you like, macroeconomic events to the, to the challenges as well as the challenge we had as an organisation of, of scaling up the organisation in order to be able to take on those, um, those construction projects and, and then eventually delivering them successfully. Welcome to the Lab to Market Leadership Podcast. Too many advanced science and engineering companies fail to deliver their innovations from the lab to the market. We're on a mission to change that. My name is Chris Reichhelm, and I'm the founder and CEO of Deep Tech Leaders. Each week we speak with some of the world's leading entrepreneurs, investors, corporates, and policy makers about what it takes to succeed on the lab to market journey. Join us Hey everyone, welcome back to Lab to Market Leadership. If you've been following along with the podcast recently, you know that we've been concentrating on founder CEO archetypes, and we presented two in the last couple of weeks that make our point. The first has been Dr Jan Goetz, who is the co-founder and CEO of quantum computing company IQM based in Finland. And Jan presents as the classic, the most popular type of founder CEO archetype, the scientist steward, which is generally a brilliant researcher who emerges from a research institute or university and co-founds or founds a company, CEO. And Jan explained his journey guiding IQM, uh, and, uh, and, and how he continues to guide IQM. We followed that up with Dr Simon Thomas, who's the co-founder and CEO of graphene electronics company Paragraf based in the UK. And Simon, uh, presents as the classic systems builder, an engineer by background, very familiar with production, with process and understanding of it, of what good is gonna look like within a particular environment and, uh, and a, and a marvelous capacity to apply a lot of these lessons in adjacent industries. And Simon talked through his journey with us very recently. What happens when it's time to replace the founder CEO? And what happens when you've got to bring in an externally appointed CEO? How does that person fill the space? What things can be done to increase their likelihood of success? Today, my guest is Ian Temperton, and Ian is the chief executive of Plastic Energy, which is a plastic recycling company headquartered in the UK. They take mixed plastic waste in at one end, and they convert that into a virgin oil at the other end, which can be used in novel plastic material. Um, Plastic Energy has been on quite the lab-to-market journey, as you're gonna learn. And so if you are involved in the plastic recycling space, any kind of waste recycling space, any kind of chemistry or chemical engineering space, you're gonna wanna listen to today's podcast. This is particularly relevant for those companies that are probably TRL eight or beyond, advanced levels of manufacturing readiness level, and probably more in the middle or advanced stages of the commercial readiness level too. So this is a much, um, much more mature company. It's still with lots of challenges, but quite different from the earlier stage companies, many of which we've dealt with before. It's a wonderful episode I hope you enjoy. Let's get into it Ian Temperton, thank you so much for joining me. Thank you for having me. Pleasure to be here Ian, your background is an interesting one, and I think when most people think about deep tech CEOs or even waste recycling CEOs or climate hardware CEOs, they're generally expecting to see someone with a technical background in that domain. But you've got a background that is principally in investment, spending 11 years with Climate Change Capital in London, and then I think initially joining, uh, Plastic Energy as a chief investment officer, and of course, you had other commercial roles in there, too. At this stage of your lab to market journey, is it so important that a CEO like you has a background in the technology, or can a company move on from that? So back in the midst of time, I do have an engineering degree. Fortunately, my colleagues don't let me, um, don't let me engineer very much these days, which everybody should be very reassured by. But, um, uh, yes, you're right. I spent about a dozen years or so, um, working in all things green financing and, um, and joined Plastic Energy for that, uh, that purpose and led the biggest round that we did in 2021 when, when we brought quite a lot of, um, investment into fund growth at that point. So, um, um, I think I've learned quite a lot about what we do over the time. Fortunately, like I say, we don't rely on me for the technology, so the, the heritage of the technology goes back a long time before I joined and, um, and we still have a core group, um, of people who have, um, have been with the technology through its, um, through its evolution. So, um, obviously you need significantly more diverse skills as the company, uh, as the company grows and as the company expands, um, including of course bringing in investment, managing that investment, and, um, managing operations and growth as well. So, um, um, so I think that's, I think that's, uh, probably the, probably the lesson in that. Yeah. So there's a-- But we can say that there's a stage at which a company gets to where it is appropriate to start considering that. Do you have, you know, based on your experience and also perhaps as an investor, um, d- you know, is there a, is there a stage that's universally acknowledged as a, uh, as a stage where you could consider someone with such a background coming into this role? Uh, I don't, I don't know if, if it's universally acknowledged. I mean, I can tell you what, what experience we had here. So I, I, I joined, um, primarily to raise money. I was here for five years before I became CEO, so I'd, I'd learned the, I'd learned the ropes. They'd let me around the plant once or twice in that period, so I, um, I pretty much know what, um, um, what goes on. And we were, I think probably importantly when I took over in the mid- midway through deploying, um, a lot of capital in, in real projects- Mm-hmm … or in bigger projects, um, uh, with new partners than we had had before. And, um, that brought with it lots and lots of execution challenges, lots and lots of, um, challenges related to, um, how we'd attract investment again in the future, how we'd set up the governance for all of that, which was perhaps a little different to what we'd, um, what we'd gone before. So whether that applies to all companies, who knows? But, um, um, we'd certainly got to a point where, um, there was an awful lot of execution going on, um, an awful lot in our context of investors' money being, um, being, being deployed and perhaps a, perhaps a need for, um, uh, more operational style management, more and more financial governance. Yes. So, you know, I, I think about the lesson there and I think, you know, at a certain stage, and so of course it's not gonna be relevant for all companies, but for companies that are starting to work through those types of challenges or where their existence or continuation along that lab to market journey really depend on being able to do those deals where you've got, you know, not just the financing of the operation of the company itself, but increasingly complex commercial deals too with strategics and other partners, uh, where then a core, a critical skill around the board table and around and in the leadership team becomes You know, financing and being able to think of it in, in a strategic context. Yeah. Look, I think that's right. And I think also we go through-- we will go through probably in our next phase, uh, uh, accessing more different types of financing as well. So, um- Yeah … as the technology matures, as the technology scales- Mm… um, the right appropriate investment for what we are at our core, which is an industrial technology company, is perhaps different to the, the inevitable concrete pipes, steel tanks, uh, machines that we have in the plants that actually do the, the plastic recycling. So that has been, that has been largely as one, um, historically. Um, but as we deploy more and more, um, capital to develop more and more projects, then, um, as production expands, um, then we'll, we'll inevitably need to tap more different sorts of- Yes … um, capital and, and that capital will be more… We'll find more appropriate capital for some parts of what the business needs. Um, the business continues to develop its technology. We continue to invest in, um, in the lab side of things. Um, um, and so that is perhaps a different profile to the, to the, um, to the plants which operate as mature production facilities. Yes. You, you took over from the founder CEO, um, from Carlos Morales. And to walk such transitions can be tricky, uh, when you're taking over from someone who has, you know, who has been so instrumental to the birth and development of the business. What was that like? You know, what was, you know, what was that transition like for you? Yes. I mean, the good news was I'd been here for five years, so, um, I knew everybody and I, um, uh, I knew the ropes, I knew the company, and an awful lot of the counterparties. Um, and, um, and Carlos and I had worked together for, for five years reasonably successfully, I think. So that's, um, um, that I think made it an awful lot easier. I think, like I say, also it's important to recognize that, um, um, that an awful lot of the foundations of the company remained in place. So our, um, we have a core group led by our chief technology officer who have been with the technology for well over 15 years now, um, and continue to provide innovation, continue to come up with new ideas. So, um, and on the operations side of things, um, we have people who have worked in and operated the plants that we operate in Spain for, for as long as they've been in existence. So some of those guys have been around for 11 or 12 years too, which is the, which is roughly the length of time that those plants have been going. So an awful lot of their heritage stayed with the company. Um- Um, uh, even though there was a, uh, a leadership transition. Um, and like I say, it was very, very clear at the time, uh, we were in the midst of building, um, the plants that we're just in the process of completing. So, so two what for us are very major construction projects in partnerships with, um, in partnerships with major petrochemicals companies. Um, and there was a real need at that point, I think, to focus on, on executing, completing those projects, um- Mm … um, so that the company could then do what we'll hopefully do now in our next phase, which is move on from those, um, um, important construction projects and develop the next, um- Mm … the next phase of growth. A- as Carlos would have led in one way, you're coming in and you will have your own leadership style. Were there certain things that you had to stop doing or certain new types, you know, new areas of management that you had to explore, new things you had to put in place, not just that represented a change and a break from the past, but that the company needed in order to move forward? Uh, so there was certainly a strong, much, much stronger focus on governance probably as we, um, um, uh, as I took over. Lots and lots of kind of boring but important stuff around reporting and controls. Um, uh, those kind of things that you would probably, um, uh, that you would probably expect. I think probably the, probably the, the, the core thing was, was a, a focus of the whole company on execution. Um, particularly with the amount of capital we had in deployment at the, at the time on, on what were, what were big and difficult construction projects along with partners. So, um, I would spend, or I have spent, um, the majority of my time traveling over the last couple of years going to those projects perhaps rather than looking for, um, um, uh, new opportunities with the same intensity because it's been, it's been clear in the market, um, over that period that those new opportunities were dependent on, on delivering the execution on the, on what we had in play. So, um, uh, so, uh, that's probably the key thing. Mm. And, and that is, you know, to realize the fruits of that, of that, uh, of those efforts, particularly around the execution, you clearly have to make sure you've got the right management team because they're gonna be on the front line in terms of that execution, in terms of delivering on those projects. So… And that can often be a big transition point for teams, uh, you know, for companies. Did you guys have to go through such a transition point, or did you-- or was that largely in place? So the, um, the team was, team was largely in place. So, um, uh, we've had some people, um- Come and go as you might expect. I think the key thing that we did in terms of management structure because we, because we continue to develop the technology. There's an awful lot of work continues to go on in the lab and, and in fact we'll probably come back to it. But, um, our production operating plants are also very much a laboratory for us at, at, at an industrial scale. So I think one of the things we realized was that if we wanted to execute on major investment projects and continue to invest in the, in the core industrial technology of the company, then we needed to separate those somewhat. So, um, um, the company had been relatively small before, so, um, um, we didn't particularly focus on making the technology that we had developed into a product before deploying it. We almost went almost, um, uh, too quickly from lab to market, if you like, or from lab to deployment. So, um, a little bit of restructuring, a little bit of structure around that kind of process, um- Mm so that we know that when we, that when we launch a product or we launch an enhancement to the product or, or something new, that it's been through a reasonably rigorous process, um- Mm … uh, before we do it Take, take us back, if you don't mind. The company started in two thousand eleven. Ag- and I'm guessing it started its journey then. When, when it was started, was there starting material, uh, or was it a, a really true start?"Hey, I'd love to be able to do this one day, but I have nothing in place right now. Let's go build." No, no, no. There was, there was… This is before my time, but, um, the, um, uh, uh, I think there were two bits of, of, of starter material, if you like, that were combined to make the Plastic Energy company as it's eventually become. So, so pyrolysis is not new. Py- Mm-hmm. It's, it's well understood that if you cook something made of hydrocarbons, you'll make a different hydrocarbon. Um, um, so our, um, our, the person who is still our CTO was already working on this, um, on this technology. There is, there is a long history of, um, of the development of the early stages of understanding of the pyrolysis of, of end-of-life plastics. Um, uh, and then there was, um, that was combined with, um, an, uh, an entrepreneurial approach to, to, uh, to, um, project development. Um, so that is what led to deploying the technology at those, um, at the two sites we have in southern Spain was, was the result of the combination of those two things in effect. So, um, the technology as it, um, as it had existed and, and as with a lot of technologies, it had an awful, uh, it had a long run-in, um, uh, to, um, to the stage that it was at even then 15 years or so ago. Um, um, and then that was deployed in, um, like I say, three or four years later in those, in those plants that we still operate in, uh, Andalusia. Okay. So, so it must have been, so it must have been fairly well-developed by that stage, by two thousand eleven to… And you-- Am I right in thinking, did I hear that correctly that at, after three or four years of starting, then those initi- y- then those early relationships with the plants in Andalusia came online? Yeah. So those were, those were built by Plastic Energy through 2014 to 2016, '17 or so. Okay. Okay. So, so yeah. So there was enough development in the technology in order to deploy. I mean, those facilities have run for 10 years and continue to run as proper industrial photo- production facilities. They're relatively small scale. Mm-hmm. Um, uh, certainly by the size of the petrochemicals industry, they're tiny. Mm-hmm. Um, uh, but they, um, uh, they do operate as, as full manufacturing facilities, uh, um, um, every day. So, um, um, but it's important to recognize that even now, 15 years on from that start, we continue to develop the, we continue to develop the technology. So, um, that involves embedding lessons from, um, the actual lab work that goes on. So we have a, a research facility, and you mentioned it in your introduction. Um, so it's a full research facility that in- that involves a pilot, um, uh, a pilot facility of one of the plants. Um- Mm-hmm … um, but we also have those production facilities which are also giving us information on how our process works, how we can make it better, how we can improve it in the future. Um, those things all come together to allow us to design new generations of the technology, enhancements to the technology. Mm-hmm. Um- You've, as you mentioned, been operating plants in Spain since twenty fourteen. Uh, you've got a JV with SABIC, which is-- which I understand is produ-is producing first oil in the Netherlands. Um, you've got a TotalEnergies partnership in France. You've got Ineos at a hundred thousand tons. Uh, you are building Asia's l- or you're part of building Asia's largest advanced recycling plant in Malaysia. Uh, you know, this sounds like quite extensive development. Can you help pinpoint for us where exactly on the lab to market journey you are in terms of technology readiness level, manufacturing readiness level? Let's start with those two, and we can kind of… Because commercial will be a different conversation, I'm sure. But, you know, where have you guys gotten to? So, uh, plastic energy is constantly de-developing technology from the lab through to the market. Um, by the time we're developing the kind of production plants that we operate and that we've just finished constructing and the, the ones that come in the future, which, which will cost tens, probably hundreds of millions of euros each from, uh, from an individual plant perspective, then, then obviously that technology, um, whilst it's come from our labs and elsewhere, we, um, on the innovative side of the business, it's gone through an awful lot of due diligence and an awful lot of, um, um, engineering preparation then and is at a very, very high, um, uh, technology readiness level and, and manufacturing readiness level. We don't build these things, um, uh, as experiments. They, they, uh, we do learn from them continually, but we don't, um, certainly the new plants at large scale are built, um, to be production facilities, um, not to be labs. When you started engaging with the likes of Ineos and the likes of, uh, you know, with the SABIC, uh, and the Total and so on in your partnerships, at what point, can you give us a sense of the, the point at which your co- your technology had gotten to? When was it enough for them? And wha- and, and there's a second, uh, follow-up question right behind that. Was that all about the performance of the technology at that stage or y- or was it also to do with the amount of trust that had been developed between your organizations? Because that also has a bearing. So I, I think it's all of the above. The, the critical thing always with partners is to go and see the two Spanish plants. Um, they have operated now for a little under a decade or so. They operate on a continuous basis. Um, they are a little bit of a lab for us at an industrial scale, but, um, they, um, operate as full manufacturing facilities, um, operating year-round. So, um, we can take people to, granted, relatively small facilities, um, where the thing they are gonna build is working. And the fundamental chemistry of the process, um, is the chemistry that we have, um, in those two plants in Spain. And the fundamental challenges that we, that we will experience as we scale the technology up, we've experienced them first in tho- in those plants. We can also provide people with Um, uh, on specification pyrolysis oil or tack oil as we like to call it. Mm-hmm. So, um, that is exceptionally important because what we produce is an intermediate product. So we produce a product which then petrochemicals companies use to make plastic again. Um, that means that that product, which is a replacement for hydrocarbons, but it's not exactly the same hydrocarbon that they would, that you would drill out of the ground in order to make it, to make plastic. They have to be comfortable putting that through their, through their production process. So the fact that we, the fact that we have it, the fact that we can supply it to them, the fact that we can supply them reliably, um, over what might be a number of years of constructing a plant with them or for them. Um, and like I say, being able to take them to real production facilities, those are the, those are the things that always, um, that always most, um, do it for the, um, for the partners or customers or licensees that we might speak to. How, how novel is that production process and how well does that integrate with their own production operations? Yeah. So, um, uh, we've, we've, we've got different examples. So the, the two Spanish plants run independently, um, autonomously. Um, certainly the project that we have, um, both the projects that we've just built with our joint venture partners are both on established petrochemical sites, which have been petrochemical sites for many decades. Um, certainly the one with SABIC is next door to the, the, the, the steam cracker as it's referred to, the production facility for the plastic, which the oil will feed to. So, um, um, it still operates, uh, substantially as it could as an independent, on an independent basis, but its, its customer is next door. So, um, um, there is some integration, um, and we can get benefits of integration. When we're on a large petrochemical site, there is often, there's often heat, there's often utilities, um, there's obviously established skilled people who are used to operating process plants. Mm-hmm. All those things are important in order to be able to deploy the technology, um, cost-effectively, um, at the, at the scale that we're doing. What would you say the, the, the most difficult challenge has been for you guys in getting to the point? Where did you take the longest? Where did you sweat the most? Uh, um, project execution for sure. Mm-hmm. So, um, I think the, the organization had to grow a lot in order to deliver, play its part in delivering two significant construction projects. So you're, you're sort of growing the organization to do that at the same time as doing it. Um, uh, we happened to also take on certainly the two construction projects that have now just been completed, um, uh, were started or executed through both the, the COVID era, remember that? Um, and, um, and what happened to all industrial supply chains when, uh, Russia first invaded the Ukraine. So, um, uh, that added some, some very distinct, if you like, macroeconomic events to the, to the challenges, as well as the challenge we had as an organization of, of scaling up the organization in order to be able to take on those, um, those construction projects and, and then eventually delivering them successfully. But if I'm hearing you correctly, even at that time, you had The c- the, the foundation for the technology, you… This is an assumption, please correct me if I'm wrong, but you would've had a path or at least a rough path to scale up. Mm-hmm. So a way of being able to produce it repeatably, and then you have your obviously operations and production. You've got your sites down in Spain. Um, are we talking about that kind of program management layer that is responsible for delivering on spec at price, uh, with all of the bells and whistles that have been agreed? Are we talking about fundamental issues within each of those functions, or the whole thing? No, I think it's lar- largely the former. So it's lar- largely the whole, the whole program management exercise- Yeah … the contracting exercise, dealing with multiple counterparties, um, those kind of things. I mean, the fundamental technology, um, uh, it is a scale-up of what we have in, in, in Spain, and it's also a scale-out. So we have, um, um, our, um, our process runs in batches. So we, we, uh, the core of the pyrolysis technology is a, um, is a, in very, very simple terms, a stirred tank, um, in which we heat the plastic. Uh, we control the pyrolysis reaction in order to make the right products. Um, the reactors that we have at our two latest plants are a scale-up, um, from the ones that we operated in Spain for several years before that, and we also have, um, a f- a, a multiple more of them at the two facilities in, um, in, um, uh, France and the Netherlands than we have in, uh, than we have in Spain. So that brings, that brings its own, its own, its own challenges. But, um, the, the, the key thing I think for the company was, was, was delivering, learning the lessons to deliver major construction projects at scale, and importantly, on major established petrochemical sites. These, these are some of the actually bizarrely safest, given what they go on, safest, most highly regulated. From a safety permitting and, and environmental perspective, these are some of the most highly regulated places you can operate. Um, and for us to be able to deploy the technology, um, within those facilities, on those facilities, within those, um, constraints at reasonable scale, um, is a significant step for us. Mm-hmm. W- what was the, what was the… How did you deal with that challenge? I'm guessing this is a human capital, a talent challenge, management challenge. So was this dealt with by recruiting new people into the business, recruiting new skills? Uh, yeah, so largely, certainly on the project de- project development, project execution side of things, it's, um, largely about recruiting the, recruiting the right people and then, um, and then deploying them, deploying them effectively. So, and it, it's also though about dealing with, dealing with partners. So we've had an awful lot of value add from the partners, um, within, um, the development of the projects that, that we've had. So, so yes, we've grown our own capability Um, um, as we have developed the projects, but we've also had excellent partnerships with the, with the, with the people that we have developed those joint ventures with on site. Um, we're obviously on home turf for those, um, for those, uh, for those partners as well. So both on the construction and program management side, but also on the operations side, um, they, um, they add an awful lot of value as well. One of the big challenges we hear across deep tech, regardless of domain, is the development that executives need to go through, particularly management, when it comes time to engagement, engaging with the kinds of large petrochemical companies you're talking about. And these can be large companies in any domain. But the step change in terms of protocol and engagement and level of professionalism and precision and dealing with things on time, it's a big change from a startup to what we're trying to build, which is a respected member, a reliable member of a value chain. We're trying to become a capable small company that can serve an industry and that can then get permission to, to be in this industry for a while and to grow and to enjoy all the benefits. Did-- And I recall you mentioned earlier that your CTO has been with the company kind of throughout and, uh, you know, and you may have other executives in your team who've been with the company for a while. Did they have to go through such an evolution as well? Yes, and I think, well, I think that that same issue is also, um, uh, it's perhaps even more the case in the industries in which we operate, um, um, because, um, we have lots of hot stuff, um, uh, and we have lots of material moving around, and therefore we have, um, you know, we have to make sure that everybody gets home safely having built or operated the, the, the facilities through the day. So, um, it, it is a whilst we are an innovative company and we are doing a new and innovative thing, we have to deploy that innovative new technology within what is very, very justifiably and rightly a highly regulated, um, um, safety and environmental, um, environment. So we had done that obviously in the two plants we have in Spain, but, um, uh, the, the, the two very long established petrochemical facilities on which we've developed the two new plants with partners are, um, are another step from that. So, um, so, um, I, uh, the organization had to, had to mature in that respect. And like I say, I think the, um, it's been important to demarcate the, the innovative product, the lab part of it, the product development part of it from the product deployment part of it. Um, which were not so demark- marketed probably in the early days, largely because it was all the same people. Um, uh, but the, you know, the, the, the people that have been with the technology for a long time are, um, are, uh, you know, uh, very well qualified engineering professionals who understand what it takes to, to- Mm … to deploy the technology safely at scale in, in these, in these kind of facilities. But the organization certainly needed to develop. Yeah. So, so are you a… Today, would you see yourself as a platform company with a potentially, you know, with a growing number of different applications or point solutions? I'm guessing in this case, you're capable of creating, uh, you know, a new starter material, if you like, for the production of plastics that doesn't involve, uh, a fossil oil. Um, so is this, uh, you know, does this become a platform company or is it still, you know, point solutions for very specific applications? So we, we do a reason- In the grand scheme of things, we do a relatively specific thing. Mm-hmm. Um, so we take a, um, post-consumer mixed contaminated waste plastic stream- Mm of the kind that you would, um, normally see sent to landfill or incineration, and we make it back into that oil, which can be used again in order to make, um, to make virgin quality plastic. Mm. There, there are, there are two things about that that are important. N- number one, we take that plastic, that waste stream that can, that would otherwise be incinerated or, um, or landfilled. And secondly, because we produce an intermediate product which can be used to go back to virgin quality plastic, which is indistinguishable from what you would make out of fossil hydrocarbons, that means you can make, um, uh, contact sensitive or food grade plastics out of that, out of that material. So you do fully and completely close the loop. Um, so the answer to your question is we do that quite specific thing. Um, um, that involves largely a, um, flexible plastics, films, sometimes they're referred to as soft plastics. It's a polyolefins rich stream of plastics, which we, um, um, which we take. There are a number of forms of plastics which can be recycled, um, in other ways, which we, which we, which we don't take. So it is, it is A reasonably specific thing that we do. Mm-hmm. Um, deploying the technology though then across multiple sites, multiple locations, um, um, and deve- and, and developing the technology, um, as we go. So I think the, by the time we get to the product, by the time we're deploying something which is a mature technology that is ready to be in operations, um, arguably those are point solutions deploying a well-established, um, technology at, at each of those production facilities. But, um, but there is definitely … We talk about a, a kind of innovation technology development platform where we are constantly innovating in the labs and also constantly feeding back what we learn from our, uh, production facilities in order to, in order to create the next generation of technologies, which we're constantly doing. W- we've worked in waste recycling before. We've heard from some of our clients that, uh, when the Inflation Reduction Act was still in place, people were broadly in favor of supporting these sorts of companies and their innovations, and, uh, you had, uh, corporates of all kinds who were kind of behind it with the, uh, new administration in the US, uh, getting rid of the Inflation Reduction Act, uh, that has thrown a question mark in this space. And so in the EU, we have regulation, but in big markets like the US, and the US is a bellwether, uh, uh, to an extent, how do you, you know, are you having to convince companies that you should be buying our oil, or you, or, you know, are they s- are they specifying for Plastic Energy oil at this stage? Can you talk a little bit about that? So I don't, I don't think there's any argument about the fundamental problem that- Mm. Um, uh, that there is a, a large amount of plastic, which, and we need to make that plastic, um, uh, plastic economy more circular, more low carbon. Um, our backyard is very much Europe. Um, and as you said, in Europe, we are in the process of putting in what is a reasonably revolutionary set of regulations which will drive demand through the 2030s or so. So, um, probably when I joined the company, the majority of the demand was created by voluntary commitments. So for those brands and others that were, um, um, that were looking to include recycled content in their, in their packaging, that would drive demand into the petrochemicals companies who would then be looking to get oil from us so that they could produce that circular polymer which could then deliver the, the recycled packaging. Um, those commitments still exist. They still underpin the market today, but what we're seeing is a transition from those largely voluntary commitments to a, to a, to a regulatory requirement, particularly in Europe. So there's something called the packaging and packaging waste regulation in Europe, which will create, um, from 2030 onwards, a range of, of, um, mandates or targets for different sorts of packaging, including, really importantly for us, con- what's, what's referred to in the, in the policy as contact sensitive. So, um, that is food grade, um, that is food grade material, that is, um, material for cosmetics and other things which are, which are human sensitive if you like. Um, and that's the particular segment that we, um, that we, uh, that we look to serve. Mm-hmm. Thinking a little bit about the commercialisation approach, how important has it been to, to engage at this far end of the value chain? Not just the partners, but the companies that are gonna be actually using the plastic and, and putting it into their… Now they've got some mandates, um, and they're gonna have a regulation which, which is enormously helpful. But do you think about engaging that end of the value chain as well? And, you know, if there are any other steps along that value chain. So we, we, the, the, so the point is that there are a number of steps between certainly our oil and a, um, um, uh, a piece of packaging for your fresh fruit and vegetables or, um, or for a cosmetics packaging or something else where that recycled content might be, um, uh, there might be used. Um, but they, but obviously also those companies are key stakeholders in the, in the, um, in the overall value chain in which we operate. Their materials obviously also become the waste that we then use to, to com- to complete the loop. So, um, um, so they tend not to be our customers directly, uh, but they are key stakeholders in the, in, in the industry and therefore we do have interactions with them. One of the things that we have done over time is, um, is circularity demonstrations. So we have, um, in order to, um, in order to show people how this all works, um, we have been a member of several, um, mini consortia of, um, different parts of the value chain in plastics where we have, where we have taken waste, processed it in our facilities, created the oil, which has then gone through a petrochemicals company to make the recycled polymers to then be used again in, um, in the, um, in the packaging for a, for a particular brand. So that's allowed us to, to, to demonstrate the full circularity that we, um, that we achieve by, um, all of us together, but us doing our bit in terms of, um, processing the waste plastic into oil. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. If, if, if you, um- If you think about where this company is gonna be in five years, what does it look like? And what kind of company is it? Does it change? So the opportunity over the coming, um, five years or so in the run-up to the beginning of, um, the 2030s and then through the 2030s is enormous. Um, based on the kind of regulation we see coming in and the kind of pressures that we expect to continue globally actually for circularity and low carbon solutions, um, the, um, the demand for the product is going to go orders of magnitude. Um, from the relatively small, still quite nascent, um, almost industrial scale experimental market that we have today to something that is measured in millions of tons. Um, so that will re- um, we have the products in the pipeline ready for that. We are looking to deploy a scale up and scale out of the technology enhancements to the technology where we can take something of roughly the footprint that we have just deployed at those two projects we've talked quite a lot about during this, um- Mm-hmm episode, and deploy something that, that might be 10 times the scale, um, uh, with a similar construction complexity and a similar footprint, um, a similar number of components. That will allow us to start to get to a meaningful industrial scale, and it'll allow us to start to play a role in what is a very significant transition in the, in the plastics industry that we expect to see driven by the regulation through the, through the 2030s or so. Yeah. Um, we will continue to be at our heart an industrial technology company. Um, there is still much to learn about the process, many more efficiencies to be, um, extracted from the process, um, um, and s- many more stages that it will go through on that, on that journey to satisfying, um, uh, demand. But, um, um, we will be, um, looking to play our, our, our full part in that circular transition through, through the next decade or so. Mm-hmm. But that, and we're fortunate in Europe that we're gonna have regulations which are gonna come into place and which are going to act as the catalyst for this activity, so that mandates that companies need to be doing something about this. And so if, you know, I think about advice for other waste recycling companies, um, they're not all doing, uh, plastic, but, uh, obviously a regulatory environment that's supportive of your innovation is, you know, makes an enormous difference. It kind of goes without saying. Um- Yeah, look, and I think, and I think, um, I, I, I say this l- quite a lot. If you look at the lab part of the business, the, the kind of early-stage development part of the business, we don't really need any regulatory guidance on that. We know what we need to do. We need to make We need to make the process cheaper, we need to make the process more circular, and we need to make it lower carbon. Yeah. I mean, those, those are fundamental drivers of the business we're in and, and that's what the technology's there for. Do you need to give evidence? Do you need to give evidence to the companies? You know, do you need to demonstrate this bit of waste is now in this bit of new plastic? Do you need to kind of demonstrate what you've done? Is there a… You know, I think about greenwashing, for example. And so is there a, you know, is there a danger that once these regulations are in place, well, they've got to be monitored. So how do you ensure compliance in something like this? Yeah, I mean, that, uh, I mean, it's funda- I mean, it's number one, it's fundamental to why we exist. So the 200 people at Plastic Energy are here in order to make a difference, um, to, um, uh, to the environment and to the circularity of the plastics industry. So, um, it's fundamental to us that we, um, operate to the highest environmental standards- Yeah … and that we can, we c- we can prove that we do so. So I was about to say the, the, the regulations that are most important, um, on, like I say, on the lab side of things, we know where we have to drive things. We know where that- Yeah … innovation needs to take us over time. When you're at the market side of things, when you're at the deploying a new plant, there are a whole set of, uh, frankly, a little bit boring but important regulations, rules that you need in place in order to be able to deploy what I said earlier. It could be tens or hundreds of millions of euros of capital in an individual point facility. Um, and so the reality is that, that, that, that we take a, um, a mixed plastic stream, we create our oil. Our oil then goes into the traditional plastic production process. So one of the essential things, um, that is required then is the accounting process, um, the accounting mechanism for knowing what is recycled and what is not, because you cannot chase individual molecules through that traditional, um, plastic production process into the final packaging. It all gets mixed in together. What is important is that there are robust rules in place that make sure that what you claim to be recycled or the extent to which you claim things to be recycled, um, is true representative of the truly recycled material or waste material that has gone into the process. That is, as I mentioned, a, a boring but important set of methodologies and regulations, which is called mass balance. Yeah. Um, so this is where we c- this provides a framework for environmentally robust accounting for the, the recycled plastic, the, the recycled oil from the waste plastic that then goes into the polymer production process. Yeah. Um, and as that evolves, um, um, and those rules are established, then that will allow us to take the next step in terms of de- d- deploying our, um, technologies. Yeah. I've got one final question for you, Ian. If you were to look back on the company's journey and, and also look back on your time as an investor, because I'm aware of, uh, of certainly of, of some of what Climate Change Capital was investing in as well. And if you were to think about, I don't know, the insights that have occurred to you about companies on that lab to market journey, what are things that… You know, what are the big insights? What are the learnings, things that you didn't maybe expect but have proven to be so important? So I, I think there, there is a real balance and it, it, uh, we discuss it every day between the, the, the, um, innovation, entrepreneurship, um, risk-taking side of the, if you like, the lab source type of the innovation, um, with then the, um, more rigorous governance-led due diligenced, um, uh, deployment process systems that you need in order to be deploying large amounts of money at, at, at point facilities. So getting that balance right, I think in a growing company like ours, which is, which is deploying real production facilities, but at relatively small scale initially in the transition of an industry like the plastics industry is, um, is a real balance. Try to, um, too many systems, too many processes, um, not allowing yourself to innovate, not allowing yourself to make mistakes, um, um, will suffocate the industry that what you're trying to do as you, as you initially deploy it. Um, but not enough rigour, not enough process, not getting those things in place in time will cause you to, will cause you to make mistakes. And, um, uh, and obviously the, the mistakes you make at a lab scale is, uh, usually significantly less costly than the ones you make when you're in the middle of a, of a, of a multimillion euro, um, construction project or, um, or production facility. So, um, I think achieving that ba- I, I'm afraid I don't have, I can't leave you, Chris, with the magic bullet on where the, where the balance is, but I think that is, if there's an underlying theme of, um, uh, the journey that company on, on our go is how we balance those two things. Um- And, uh, the, and then I guess part of that becomes about when you, and you referred to it earlier, but when you make that separation between what's happening in that lab and maybe some of that's happening in Loughborough- Mm-hmm uh, where they can play with the pilot and they can experiment all they like, uh, and, uh, uh, drive the innovation there, and then you separate all of the larger scale production stuff and even some of the technology development stuff that's still gonna be important as it relates to executing against your plans with these partners. Yeah. Yep. That's, um- As opposed to necessarily, because I see a lot of companies continue with that, in this case a CTO figure, and maybe, you know, an individual can do this. But maybe you need to kind of separate it out with a CTO who sees over everything, but then in, you know, a head of R&D who is then running this lab and is innovating and is pushing the bound of what the science and engineering can do, uh, with, uh, you know, with a, a different team responsible for just delivering on what you've got to deliver. And, and then certainly what we see is making sure we have that feedback loop. So making sure that- Mm-hmm … um, uh, um, we're capturing the lessons we learn from both constructing and, and but in particular in our case, operating the sites. So, um, um, we have people who operate these plants every day. Um, they know how they behave in the real world. We are dealing with a difficult material in the form of a waste, um, which brings its own challenges. So, um, um, the, the, the, the process of our technology is, is, um, is, um, it- things do change as you take it from the lab into that industrial scale. And I think I said earlier, certainly for the plants that we, while they operate all the time, they operate as production facilities, they are manufacturing facilities. The two plants that we wholly own in Spain are also our large scale industrial laboratories. So when things are- Mm-hmm … um, when we have developed things in the labs, um, in Loughborough, then they can be taken to, to an industrial scale in those, um, uh, in those facilities. And also we're constantly, we're constantly feeding back from those facilities, um, from a data perspective, but also just from a straight, um, experience, operational knowledge perspective, what to do and what to make, how to make things better for the next generation. That's some great insight. I love the idea of Loughborough, you know, you know, pushing the boundaries, but then also these other facilities which you mentioned earlier in Spain, also doing something similar but at a different scale, and also getting different data related to the production and the running of this. So that is gonna, you know, be new data as well. And so then it, you know, you know, that's, um, I think that's an important insight to have that amount of infrastructure set up to enable you to do that. Yeah. So we had, um, we had a cleaning shutdown at one of our facilities last week, and we had, um, we had teams from the Loughborough labs over doing, doing, um, effectively industrial experiments that were, were replicating work that they had done in the lab during that, that time. So that, that happens all the time and is a really important part of the process. Fantastic. Ian, this has been great. Thank you so much for spending time with us today, uh, and for sharing, uh, Plastic Energy's journey. Um, I think there's a lot here, not just for the waste recycling industry to learn from, uh, but for climate hardware generally and anyone interested, uh, in this space or the lab to market journey. So thank you so much for joining me. Thank you very much for having me. It's been a pleasure. Thank you. You've been listening to the Lab to Market Leadership Podcast, brought to you by Deep Tech Leaders. This podcast has been produced by Beauxhaus. You can find out more about us on LinkedIn, Spotify, Apple, or wherever you get your podcasts.