When Fatherhood Doesn't Happen: A Conversation About Male Childlessness With Dr. Robin Hadley

Today’s episode is a really important conversation and honestly, one we don’t hear enough about.

Because Claire has spoken about female childlessness on this podcast a few times, but we’ve not discussed male childlessness… particularly the emotional impact of it, the silence around it, and why so many men feel they have to carry that experience alone.

Whether it’s through circumstance, infertility, relationships not working out, or simply life not unfolding the way someone expected, involuntary male childlessness can have a profound effect on identity, mental health, relationships, and how men see themselves in the world. Yet unlike the conversations we often have around women and fertility, men’s experiences in this area are rarely talked about openly.

So today, we’re joined by someone who has dedicated years of research to understanding exactly that. Dr. Robin Hadley is an author, researcher and leading voice on male childlessness and male fertility narratives. His work explores the psychological, emotional and social impact of childlessness in men, and why so many feel invisible in conversations around fertility, masculinity and family life.

This is a really honest, thoughtful and emotional conversation about identity, grief, masculinity, relationships, ageing, and the expectations society places on men.

So whether this topic affects you personally, someone you love, or you’re simply curious to better understand the male experience - this is an episode well worth listening to.

Rob's has offered listeners 35% off the hardbaack edition of his book - using the code: HAD35 and 25% off the ebook using the code: HAD25.

Click HERE to purchase and redeem your money off.

https://www.berghahnbooks.com/title/HadleyHow

Rob's website: https://www.robinhadley.co.uk/ 

Transcript

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The Midlife Mentors: Hello, and welcome to another episode of The Midlife Mentors with me, James. Me, Claire, how are you all? It has been busy. It has, we're always saying this, but it's been so crazy this week. I feel like my head's been on a swivel. I feel like this has been the busiest week I've had in, like, years, actually. Well, last week was as well, it was bank holiday, but for some reason… No, this week's been bank holiday, you keep saying that. See, I'm that busy, I've lost track.

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The Midlife Mentors: But yeah, it's been insanely busy, but in a really, in a really good way. Yeah, in a great way. We went to a great book launch on Wednesday night for Lindsay, who has launched her Age Rebellion book. If you haven't listened to that episode, go back. Yeah, we had her on our podcast, that was amazing, and we got a little shout-out at her launch, which was nice. Which was lovely. Thank you, Lindsay. I've been out and about delivering some corporate workshops around communication, fostering good relationships.

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The Midlife Mentors: And then we're back to Ibiza next week. We are. For fun, for fun, for work. So anyway, without further ado, James, I will leave it to you to introduce our lovely guest today. Yeah, a big topic here, and something that actually, I think really resonates with us, and does come up a lot when we're working with clients as well, and we're going to be talking about

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The Midlife Mentors: male childlessness, and I guess how that… how that can impact people, what society's view on is it, and all the rest, and we're thrilled to be joined by an expert in Syria, Dr. Robin Hadley, author, researcher, expert in male childlessness. Welcome, Rob! Welcome, Rob.

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Rob Hadley: Thank you. Delight to be on the show.

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The Midlife Mentors: So what first drew you to this area? Was it something personal, or… yeah, what's the backstory to why you got involved in this quite a unique area.

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Rob Hadley: Yeah, I was really broody in my 30s, I realized, in my 40s. I'd worked for 30-odd years as a scientific and technical photographer, and then digital photography came through, and

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Rob Hadley: I wasn't wanted, so I, started training as a counsellor, and I did that because I come from a working class background. I was really, really not very confident about taking exams and all that sort of thing. And in counselling, you could do it in nice, short blocks, so you weren't committed to a lot of money up front, and also I could sort of test the water.

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Rob Hadley: And, eventually I did a counselling postgraduate diploma, and then an MA, and in the MA, because it was counselling, it had to be something you experienced, and I just thought, well, I'll

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Rob Hadley: mentioned to my supervisor, the late, great,

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Rob Hadley: Dr. Liz Ballinger, you know, I was really broody in my 30s, and she sort of woke up and went, do that, I've never heard anything about that. And, that's when I found out there was really not very much about men's desire for fatherhood, or male broodiness. I mean, an awful lot around women.

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Rob Hadley: But almost an exclusionary social practice around men, and men being vulnerable, but particularly about men not being fertile, that men have to be virile.

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Rob Hadley: And that they're expected to be virile, and there's this myth that you're virile from puberty till death. Fully virile, fully fertile.

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Rob Hadley: And,

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Rob Hadley: science sort of says no, really. But there's a handy social dynamic around not seeing men as being weak or being vulnerable,

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Rob Hadley: not being invincible. So that got me into it, and that thing about… there's not much around men. There's not… the men's voices aren't there.

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Rob Hadley: actually their experience. So then I self-woned an MSC looking at levels of broodiness, because it's true women are broody and men aren't.

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Rob Hadley: And there seemed to be no science backing that up, so I did my little MSc survey and found it was round about the same, but really interesting that the men were more depressed, more angry, sort of more jealous, and actually paralleled the emotional,

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Rob Hadley: output, Or experience of childless women and mothers much more than fathers.

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Rob Hadley: Which would seem to back up

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Rob Hadley: data that's coming through now about what an impact father has on the behaviours and attitudes of men.

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Rob Hadley: That's what got me into it.

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The Midlife Mentors: Yeah, wow, fascinating. I mean, you talk, I think, in your work about childless men are seen as, like, invisible by society. Why do you think that society… we do talk openly about, you know, childlessness in women, and things like broodiness, but we don't extend that to men. Why do you think that is?

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Rob Hadley: I think there's something handy around it.

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Rob Hadley: that, there's a political scientist in America called Cynthia Daniels who wrote a book called Reproductive Masculinities, and she argues that societies have always been, at some point, very aggressive.

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Rob Hadley: And that tends to be men who are doing the fighting.

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Rob Hadley: And you don't want to give a psychological advantage to your enemy.

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Rob Hadley: by saying, our men are… aren't virile. They're a bit weak here. So, underlying that is what she would argue around that. But then there's…

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Rob Hadley: how…

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Rob Hadley: we do see men. Why is it handy to see it in sort of a binary of being, you know, objective.

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Rob Hadley: Invincible. Our bodies don't count.

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Rob Hadley: We go out and we do things. We're goal-oriented, and that's rewarded, and there's kudos around that.

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Rob Hadley: That's all about virility. Social virility, economic virility, and biological virility.

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Rob Hadley: And… So the ideal man It is what is virile in all those areas.

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Rob Hadley: And what happens for men?

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Rob Hadley: That's out there in society, it's in the press, it's how you're brought up, it's in religion, it's all there. It may be overt, or it may be covert, but it's definitely there. So what happens then for men who are failing, or don't feel they've got where they should be to meet their ideals.

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Rob Hadley: what happens to them. And I think from your previous work, and certainly from your previous guests, we know what happens. It impacts on their mental and physical health, and how they view themselves, and how they feel they're viewed.

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Rob Hadley: And the thing about ideals, they're a great idea.

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Rob Hadley: But in reality, not so great.

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The Midlife Mentors: Hmm.

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The Midlife Mentors: It's really interesting, because I'm just listening to you and thinking, I speak quite a lot, because obviously I don't have children, and… you know, I speak a lot to… to women that might also be in my situation, have had my… had similar experiences. Some women…

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The Midlife Mentors: have actually made the conscious choice not to have them. Some women might have left it too late. Some women, can't, unfortunately, and very sadly have children. And so, from a female perspective, there's a… there's a real empathy and a love, and I suppose, in society, we're like.

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The Midlife Mentors: that's really aimed at women. You know, the empathy and the compassion

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The Midlife Mentors: Because we have that maternal instinct, right? So, if you can't have children…

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The Midlife Mentors: or we've chosen not to, that's a whole other story, because then you're looked at as quite weird, actually. Sometimes, I think that narrative is changing a little bit, but…

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The Midlife Mentors: understandably, over generations, generations ago, that was looked at quite… as quite strange for women to choose not to have children. But I think that narrative is changing, but there's a lot of empathy and compassion towards women, and you're right, I don't… I don't see… because it is… it is different, but I don't see that kind of empathy, compassion, curiosity.

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The Midlife Mentors: Or trying to understand how that's impacted a man.

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Rob Hadley: Yeah, it's true, and it goes for fertility, but for almost anything else as well. I know you had Susie Bennett on your show, who's done so much work on, male suicide, and again, they invisibly… although the stats are…

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Rob Hadley: horrendous.

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Rob Hadley: The struggle to get funding, to get it recognised, to get something done. Again, that's something about, we don't want to see men.

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Rob Hadley: In that way, you were saying about invisibility. One of the ways we're invisible is…

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Rob Hadley: When a baby's registered, the mother's fertility history is taken, and it has to be taken by law.

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Rob Hadley: But the father's isn't.

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Rob Hadley: So, what that means is, when it comes to policy, they go to the…

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Rob Hadley: Population trends and forecasts, which are all based on

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Rob Hadley: the women's fertility. So you know how many women are childless, you know how many women are childhood, so you can work out what you're going to need in 20, 30, 40 years' time.

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The Midlife Mentors: Hmm.

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Rob Hadley: But there's a whole cohort, there's a half the population, you don't really know about.

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The Midlife Mentors: Wow. I didn't… I didn't know that, Rob, and that just shows… Well, that makes sense, but… It does make sense, but it also doesn't, because if you had 100 women on an island who were fully fertile, and 100 men on the island who were fully infertile, you're still not going to have a population at the end of the day, so…

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Rob Hadley: Yep.

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The Midlife Mentors: Why aren't we measuring them in as well? Yeah…

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Rob Hadley: Yeah, and it's such a simple thing.

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The Midlife Mentors: Yeah.

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Rob Hadley: But again, that just grows back into that thing, do we need to measure men? Because men are always gonna… they're always fully fertile, is the other myth.

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Rob Hadley: Whereas your fertility, sort of peaks in… when you're 35, and then slowly, declines after that. And that's who I was having a conversation with somebody just the other day about.

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Rob Hadley: Oh, well, men are fertile until they're 18, 90, whatever, and usually come up with some pop star, or film star, or something like that. But if you do look at the stats, and the ones that are there, it's only, like, 0.3% of registered fathers.

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Rob Hadley: are over 50. It's a tiny, tiny population, and it's different if you're very, very rich, if you're a pop star, something like that, than if you work down the garage or in the supermarket. You're going to be viewed differently.

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Rob Hadley: completely, plus, access to assisted reproductive technologies like IVF.

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Rob Hadley: It's very much dependent on, can you afford it?

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The Midlife Mentors: I was going to ask that, because we know… we do know from the data that fertility rates in both men

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The Midlife Mentors: and women are dropping, but, you know, like, it seems… it sounds like we're not really tracking that drop in male fertility. We know testosterone levels dropping in the general population, younger men have lower levels.

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The Midlife Mentors: than men, you know, 2 or 3 decades ago, and that obviously impacts fertility. So it just seems crazy, we're not tracking it. You said something there about RVF, I think it's very interesting. Maybe you know the answer to this, maybe you don't.

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The Midlife Mentors: I do know of women who have helped that drive to be mothers. So we talk about voluntary and involuntary childlessness. Voluntary is obviously when you're deciding consciously not to have a child. Involuntary could be that, you know, that you're not fertile, but it could also be you don't meet the right person.

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The Midlife Mentors: To have a relationship, to have a child, but there are… it's an increasing trend that there are lots of women

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The Midlife Mentors: who aren't in relationships, they're opting for IVF to become a mother, solo. Are you aware… are any men doing that, or is it even available to men, to have, like, a surrogate, and then… and then have a… raise a child on their own?

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Rob Hadley: There, there are, there are some,

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Rob Hadley: under the Equality Act, you're supposed to be able to do that, but it's not very many.

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Rob Hadley: Again, surrogate fatherhood in this country tends to be people who, surrogacy is quite, legally framed in the UK, so quite a lot of people go to the USA, where it's…

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Rob Hadley: much more… I'm gonna say the terms Wild West when it comes to… in terms of regulation and access to, that… all sorts of fertility treatments, as well. So it is there,

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Rob Hadley: So, Elton John, would be an example, the Tom Davy, is it? The…

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The Midlife Mentors: Oh, yeah, yeah.

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Rob Hadley: But again, quite well-known, quite rich people who can afford that. And there'll be some people there who don't want to be.

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Rob Hadley: known about it. There are some, but it's very few, and I think that one of the things we've got to say about IVF is it's promoted by a fertility industry. It's a billion-dollar-a-year industry.

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Rob Hadley: And it's not very successful.

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The Midlife Mentors: Aye.

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Rob Hadley: it's only about 24% success rate. So there's an awful lot of loss in there.

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Rob Hadley: And I've spoken to, quite a few women who've gone through IVF with their partners, and one of the things they say is, he doesn't talk about it.

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Rob Hadley: I'm really emotional, he doesn't talk, and it's really annoying.

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Rob Hadley: And, why doesn't he talk?

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Rob Hadley: Well, he's been conditioned not to talk.

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Rob Hadley: From a very young age, being conditioned to clamp down on those feelings, be known by actions, by going and doing things outside of yourself.

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Rob Hadley: Whereas you could say women tend to be conditioned to be inside themselves, and to be that expressive. So quite often, I'd say there's, like, a concrete block being paced here from a very early age, and it's all down there.

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Rob Hadley: And the only ways out are through here, through your arms, and through your head, really, to get round. So do it through actions, and I'm sure, through therapy, arts, poems, building stuff is much more successful for men.

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Rob Hadley: Than face-to-face talking. Because it's a skill, it's where they're used to being.

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The Midlife Mentors: It's giving them a…

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Rob Hadley: Used to talking.

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The Midlife Mentors: Yeah.

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Rob Hadley: And it's just talk… it's not the talking, it's the listening.

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Rob Hadley: If you're listened to, So hard.

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Rob Hadley: Then you can hear yourself.

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Rob Hadley: You hear your own narrative, you hear what you repeat, and actually say, hmm, is that true?

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Rob Hadley: Is that true for me now? And why do I believe that about me?

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The Midlife Mentors: Yeah. It's… it's so… it's so true, kind of, listening to… seeing the work that James has done, and just listening to the… you talk, and then James talk as well, it's…

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The Midlife Mentors: One of the questions I was thinking was just talking about that IVF piece as well.

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The Midlife Mentors: Can you say something about the grief that men also feel when it doesn't?

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The Midlife Mentors: work. Can you speak to that? Because there might be, I imagine there will be, people listening to this podcast that might have gone through, and you've kind of, like, really touched on something there. The woman is like, it's not worked, I'm going through…

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The Midlife Mentors: visible grief, you know, I'm able to express that. Can we talk… could you talk a little bit to help people understand what the man might be going through with his grief?

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Rob Hadley: Absolutely, the sort of loss… lost in loss, there's a disenfranchised grief around IVF for men and women, in that

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Rob Hadley: It's only just started being recognised as a loss.

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Rob Hadley: But again, that social thing about motherhood and, women.

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Rob Hadley: And it must be a loss, and as you pointed out, some women who choose not to have babies or don't have babies for whatever reason are castigated. It depends on the social-cultural background as well. That comes into a lot of it.

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Rob Hadley: But there's a range of narratives.

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Rob Hadley: around it.

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Rob Hadley: For men does not. You're either fertile or you're not. Again, no social narratives for men to draw on, so part of the loss is, I've been raised not to feel.

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Rob Hadley: And yet, I do feel…

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Rob Hadley: what's my role in this situation when my partner's going through so much stress, she's had so much, work on her body, and painful work, because it's not a nice process? I've tried to support… I've got to be the rock, I've got to be the harbour of safety.

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Rob Hadley: Okay? That's my role.

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Rob Hadley: I've got to suspend B.

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Rob Hadley: And my feelings.

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Rob Hadley: So… I can't talk, I've been conditioned not to talk, although I feel

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Rob Hadley: I can't do it here, because what would be the point of me losing it? And also, I might actually…

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Rob Hadley: flood her.

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Rob Hadley: Because my emotions are so much, I don't want to add to her grief.

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The Midlife Mentors: Wow.

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Rob Hadley: In, in that way.

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The Midlife Mentors: Reflecting, not on this particular topic, but this is how I've felt in the past with Claire, you know, that, like, I can recognize she's in a really fragile state, and I'm feeling it.

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The Midlife Mentors: I can't… I can't voice it, because I don't… I don't want to… yeah, exactly what you said, I don't want to flood her and overwhelm her. I just want to be like, no, no, everything's fine, but inside, I'm like…

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Rob Hadley: Yeah, absolutely. It's like a volcano, isn't it? Yeah. You know, and it's there, that block's there, and it's all churning up, and the different types of volcano, if you can get, channels going down to release it before it releases the pressure.

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Rob Hadley: That's one of the things. And what do men do? They go out. They go to the pub, they go to societies, they go to the shed.

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Rob Hadley: They do actions.

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The Midlife Mentors: Yeah.

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Rob Hadley: And I think, I know a lot of, women struggle with a partner because of that, because they think he's not listening.

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Rob Hadley: But it's more around… Actually, a bit of training, almost, of, this is how we do this.

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The Midlife Mentors: Yeah.

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Rob Hadley: And we do it for a limited time. These are the words we can say.

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The Midlife Mentors: Yep.

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Rob Hadley: So some of the guys I spoke to, partners have been through… they've been through IAVF, and they went to counselling, and it was very much… I went there for her.

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Rob Hadley: I didn't get anything from it. I didn't expect to get anything from it.

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Rob Hadley: Again, that reinforcement of what you've been conditioned to be. I'm not going to be vulnerable.

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Rob Hadley: I'm not gonna show my emotion.

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Rob Hadley: But that's been put in.

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Rob Hadley: The emotions are there.

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Rob Hadley: That's been put in, so it's a matter of dismantling that in a very safe way.

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Rob Hadley: So there's stepping stones, so you can gradually release that. And hearing yourself, and saying to yourself, actually, that's not doing me any good.

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The Midlife Mentors: Rob, I want to pick up on something you said there, because it's a conversation I have with my friends all the time, and with clients, actually. It's like…

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The Midlife Mentors: Well, listen, we know… we know alcohol is bad for you, and it's, you know, it's even more demonized than ever these days, but I'm like, you know, men and women do process differently, and I think it's really important. Men… obviously, not if you're going to the pub every night and drinking 8 pints, but, like, going to the pub, and catching up with your mates, and, like, just unburdening yourself about what's going on for you, I think it's so, so important, because there's stuff…

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The Midlife Mentors: that you don't want to share with your partner. It's not appropriate to share it with your partner. Like I say, you don't want to burden her, but you can go to your friends and do it, and…

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The Midlife Mentors: I think it's interesting, because again, I think some women do have an issue with it. It's like, oh, he's gone to the pub to see his mates, well, we should be… I think it's such a necessary part for many men, and of course, it doesn't have to be the pub, I'm using that example, it just more commonly is, but it could be going out with your sports team, or your hobby team, but that…

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The Midlife Mentors: mentime, I think it's really missing in today's culture and society, because work… a workplace isn't the same as friendships. So, I just wanted to highlight that.

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The Midlife Mentors: So I think it'.

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Rob Hadley: I think… I think you're absolutely there, I'm part of the changing the world culture, so when I started training, I was training with older men.

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Rob Hadley: And you can be a bit of an idiot when you're young. You don't know the boundaries, you don't know what to say, you're trying to prove yourself, you're trying to fit in desperately, and you sort of need a bit of a guide to say, calm down.

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Rob Hadley: That's not right.

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Rob Hadley: This is the way you approach it.

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Rob Hadley: Have you thought about, doing this? And that was something that… that training school, going through training with older men.

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Rob Hadley: Particularly, or just older people.

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Rob Hadley: just influences you, and maybe that's something we're sort of missing today, particularly as the instant connection with so much information that may not be that helpful.

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The Midlife Mentors: Hmm.

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The Midlife Mentors: Yeah, I mean… Oh, I think it's so, so important.

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The Midlife Mentors: for men to gather. I fully support you all the time, don't I? I'm like, go out, connect, because I… I… I've learned… I think that's…

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The Midlife Mentors: When you know you're in a good…

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The Midlife Mentors: team marriage, when you can work through stuff together, and we've been to therapy together, and it was amazing. I just kind of… also, apart from the connection, men

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The Midlife Mentors: losing that connection with their groups of friends, and that being very sad, and actually, I feel it's very, very necessary for men to have those connections in whatever way that they can outside work. One of the things that you mentioned

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The Midlife Mentors: And it's completely gone from my head now, was… hang on, let me just think. It was around,

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The Midlife Mentors: Actually, no, it's fine, I'll cut this bit out of it. I can't remember, my brain's got… I'm going through, yeah… Well, that leads nicely to my question. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You go, and then I'll probably remember. Yeah, so I wanted to ask you about life cycles. So, obviously, for women, right, perimenopause is, like, that's the warning lights that the fertile portion of their life is coming to men, they're going to menopause.

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The Midlife Mentors: that's it. And it's a very… there's a very clear, kind of, I guess, staging post.

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Rob Hadley: Hmm.

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The Midlife Mentors: For men, although we've discussed, you know, the cultural message, but they can be fertile on, but do you notice… is there an age pattern? Like, is midlife, when men are starting to think, oh, I've left it a bit late?

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The Midlife Mentors: Or does it not… does it not really tarry up in the same way as it might do for females?

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Rob Hadley: I think, you're absolutely spot on. There's something around the life cycle and the bio-social aspect of stuff, so we're biologically timed, men as well. The hormonal change in women is much more significant,

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Rob Hadley: But there's still a hormonal change in men. After the age of 35, it's a very, very slow decline.

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Rob Hadley: But societies tend to have a time when it's appropriate to become a parent. So, too young, not too good. Too old, not too good. That's changing a bit now because of technology and stuff like that, so becoming older parents there. But usually around about mid-30s?

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Rob Hadley: Is a time when people start thinking, There's a clock.

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Rob Hadley: Yeah.

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The Midlife Mentors: Hmm.

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Rob Hadley: And it's ticking, particularly for women, but it's the same for men.

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Rob Hadley: As well. And the thing for men is, I don't want to be an old dad.

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Rob Hadley: I want to be doing, playing football, taking them to uni, doing all that, and…

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Rob Hadley: for the men I spoke to, that seemed to be around the age 50, was the sort of turning point.

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The Midlife Mentors: That…

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Rob Hadley: Actually, you know, I'm only 15 years away.

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Rob Hadley: From 50, 50's rolling up. That's the peak of the, the life.

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The Midlife Mentors: then, huh?

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Rob Hadley: Yeah, but also in those mid-30s, when other people…

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Rob Hadley: I'm becoming pregnant, so I know I was really broody in my, sort of mid-30s.

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Rob Hadley: My colleagues were becoming fathers.

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Rob Hadley: my brothers and sisters had become parents, and it was that expected… the men I, interviewed, they were all sort of saying, you know, I expected to be a dad. For the middle class, it was, I was going to go leave school, go to university, get married.

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Rob Hadley: Have children.

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Rob Hadley: That was the arc of life.

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Rob Hadley: Really, and the peak is that one there, isn't it? Forming a family. For the working class, it was leave school, get a job.

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Rob Hadley: Get married. Have children. Okay. So there's a point where you're thinking, actually, everybody else is on the other track.

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Rob Hadley: And it's a lovely track.

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Rob Hadley: And I'm not.

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Rob Hadley: Yeah. So where's that? And what's the gap?

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Rob Hadley: And it's that gap that you can fall into, between the expected, the ideal, and what everybody seems to be achieving so very, very easily.

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Rob Hadley: although you don't know their story, around, that. So that bio-social clock in the mid-30s is very, very important for both, both sexes, absolutely. And there's something around,

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Rob Hadley: People… women tend to partner with men who are slightly older than themselves.

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Rob Hadley: So, I think the… Average age of first birth is around about 31.

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Rob Hadley: in the UK for him. We don't really know about that, because we don't clear that data.

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Rob Hadley: But we can, we can assume it's, like, 2 or 3 years older.

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The Midlife Mentors: Yeah.

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Rob Hadley: From that. So as that moves on.

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Rob Hadley: that… that builds up as well for the men. Actually, I'm not doing what I should be doing.

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Rob Hadley: Fred and Jim… Their… all their conversations about…

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Rob Hadley: Sleeps, doing things with their kids, the baby, all the conversations in work, and it… children are a great social bridge

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Rob Hadley: You know, what state's your baby at? Oh, my baby, when he was here, or she was there, there's all that…

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Rob Hadley: Social narrative around it, and you're excluded.

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Rob Hadley: from that. And you're excluded, actually, in work, policy-wise as well.

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The Midlife Mentors: Mmm.

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Rob Hadley: But it's in work, you know, the emails come round, so-and-so is having a baby.

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Rob Hadley: All these people of what I should be, And I'm not.

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The Midlife Mentors: Yeah.

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Rob Hadley: There should.

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Rob Hadley: is a very powerful word, but that's, again, been put in to us from a very young age. So when I was growing up, my parents said to me, if they were rejecting something I was after, I'd say, well, you know, when you're a parent.

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Rob Hadley: You'll be having to make these decisions.

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Rob Hadley: So that's fed in.

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The Midlife Mentors: Yeah.

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Rob Hadley: Like that, and you take it in. Actually, I'm gonna become… and that's just gonna be a natural thing, until something raises…

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Rob Hadley: The issue, you know, if it's biological, medical.

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Rob Hadley: that questions your fertility, the assumption of everybody, generally, is, I'm fully fertile, I'm going to be fertile. Nobody questions their fertility until their fertility is questioned.

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The Midlife Mentors: Yeah, true. And Rob, I've got a personal question for you, and I know before we jumped on, we… you said it was okay for me to…

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Rob Hadley: Absolutely.

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The Midlife Mentors: ask you a personal question. So, what happened with you, if you don't mind sharing that?

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Rob Hadley: Sure.

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The Midlife Mentors: You were really broody in your 30s, what happens after that?

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Rob Hadley: Okay, in my, 30s, yeah, I… I was a bit of… I was quite shy.

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Rob Hadley: I'm, the 7th of 8, and so I always expect people to make decisions for me, because I've always had

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Rob Hadley: older kids in front of me, and so I was quite shy, so I got married in my mid-20s, which was a bit later than anybody else, and we tried for a child.

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Rob Hadley: Didn't pan out, and it could have been that we were slightly… we're in sync, but then we weren't.

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Rob Hadley: And that my, then-wife got out of sync with my sink. And so we divorced, a few years before I had a relationship. That was a heavy relationship. At one point, she said to me, I want to have your babies.

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Rob Hadley: And when we were trying, when I was married, I was really nervous about it. Was I going to be a good provider? How's a, like, a…

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Rob Hadley: A technician in a university is not a great job, not a great pay, but very, very steady, which was fitted… fitted in with my upbringing, to be steady.

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Rob Hadley: And in my… in the later relationship, I thought, yeah, I can do this.

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Rob Hadley: I can be a dad, I can be a stay-at-home dad, because that might have come through then, that sort of thing, you know, I can do that. But then we split up.

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Rob Hadley: And then I met my wife, she's a few years older than me, she's a medical professional, she was just hitting 40, and she said.

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Rob Hadley: because I was being very broody, and she said, look, if you want to become a dad, you're going to have to find somebody else. It's not going to be for me.

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Rob Hadley: Because I was broody, but because of my age, and because of my medical knowledge.

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Rob Hadley: I know the risks involved. And also, she'd been a health visitor, so she'd,

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Rob Hadley: being helpful for many couples with children with special needs. I know what it takes. I know how difficult that can be, and I can't face that.

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Rob Hadley: So if you want to become a dad.

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Rob Hadley: go somewhere else, and I was, I think, about 38, 39 or something. Who would want me?

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Rob Hadley: Actually, because I, you know, I don't need somebody, like, 8 or 10 years younger than me to… from the biological point of view, and…

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Rob Hadley: people that gen… was like a generational difference. They didn't…

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Rob Hadley: speak like me, didn't dress like me, I was a stranger in their world if I went in there. And he'd be a bit mad, actually, as well, probably viewed a bit suspiciously as a relatively older boat in a younger world. And also, you know, I mean, Louis had a fantastic one, batting so far out of my league.

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Rob Hadley: Why?

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Rob Hadley: Why would I? You know, and yeah, and, you know, maybe something will happen.

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Rob Hadley: But, it didn't. So, all those, things affect your reproductive outcomes. Choice of partner, people change their mind.

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Rob Hadley: Choice of partner.

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Rob Hadley: And into all that comes economics as well.

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Rob Hadley: Because people, especially these days, short-term contracts, cost of housing, so this is what I call a term reproductive capital. So you've got your biological capital, your resources, but also there's social-economic

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Rob Hadley: The capital there. It all makes up to… Influence your reproductive outcome.

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The Midlife Mentors: Yeah. So it's really… I wanted to thank you so much for sharing that, Rob.

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The Midlife Mentors: Really, because I think it's also… it's about your… your… You're talking about this…

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The Midlife Mentors: staff, and it's… so it might be… you've actually had personal experience of having to work through

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The Midlife Mentors: the emotions that have come up for you, including, like, that grief, I suppose, that we talked about, of not… of those expectations, also, that you've mentioned. These… I'm on this track, everyone else is on this track, and my expectations, and I think that's what we talk about a lot on the Midlife Mentors podcast, and to our clients, is my expectations, when I'm younger, are here.

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The Midlife Mentors: And then when I get to midlife, my 40s and 50s, it's over here, and it doesn't marry up, and there's a real identity crisis.

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Rob Hadley: Yeah, absolutely, particularly, I think, around the zeros, those big zeros, 30, 40, 50.

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The Midlife Mentors: yet.

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Rob Hadley: just before, or just after, or during that, sort of, 3-year period, the year before, the year, and the year after, where am I?

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The Midlife Mentors: Yeah.

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Rob Hadley: Where should I be?

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The Midlife Mentors: Yeah.

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Rob Hadley: Why aren't I there?

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Rob Hadley: you know, perhaps I've overachieved, perhaps, wow, what am I doing up here? But more likely.

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Rob Hadley: It's not what I thought it was gonna be.

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The Midlife Mentors: Yeah. This is what I hear all the time. And they'll say it's flip sides of the same coin. For some people, it's like, exactly that. I'm just not where I thought I would be, and I feel a bit disappointed, and where do I go next? Where other people are like.

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The Midlife Mentors: oh, I've got to where I thought I wanted to be, but actually it's not what I wanted at all. Now what? It's the flip side of the same coin, it's really interesting, isn't it?

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Rob Hadley: And the other thing is, we base that on when we were brought up and all those conditions, but the world is so different.

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The Midlife Mentors: Yeah.

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Rob Hadley: They're so, so different. I say that as an older man. But it's changing so rapidly each… each couple of years, actually. That sort of thing. One of the things I just want to say is, the men I interviewed.

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Rob Hadley: the struggle to say anything about not being a dad. They wanted to be dads, but didn't become them for all sorts of reasons. Usually, people think it's fertility, but it's not. As I explained.

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Rob Hadley: who you meet, social economics stuff. Life stuff gets in the way of life.

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Rob Hadley: All the men said this thing, there's something missing.

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Rob Hadley: Something missing. Two, words there. And it's so powerful, because there's something missing inside.

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Rob Hadley: But there's something missing outside. So you're not recognized. If you're a childless man, oh, go on, you're fine, you sold your wild oats, you're fine, you have a great life.

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Rob Hadley: Now, this is what people used to tell me in work, oh, but you're free!

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Rob Hadley: you're free, really. And that may be good for a certain period in your life, that's great, but if you're raised with the expectation of being in the family, of taking on roles, of being a parent, all that balloons.

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Rob Hadley: You can't access that narrative. You can't access that way of being.

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Rob Hadley: And so that's something missing, Was really very powerful.

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The Midlife Mentors: Mmm.

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Rob Hadley: And the other thing they said, when they… when they first contacted them, the first thing that all of them said was, are you childless?

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Rob Hadley: And then they said, you'll understand.

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Rob Hadley: And quite a few of them said, this is the first time I've ever spoken about this to anyone, even some of the men who'd gone through IVF.

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The Midlife Mentors: Wow. I want to bring it back round at the close to what men can do if they're struggling with it and closing that gap, but before that, you touched on something there. When we talk about, involuntary childlessness.

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The Midlife Mentors: it's not always down to fertility, and we do know that society and culture is changing, so what we hear amongst a younger demographic is they're finding it increasingly hard to date, let alone sit down apart. You know, we're hearing, you know, not isolated stories.

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The Midlife Mentors: it seems to be affecting men more than women. Of men in their late 20s, their 30s, they never even had a girlfriend, you know.

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The Midlife Mentors: Is this something you see that people are struggling to form relationships when they're younger now, just because of the changes in dating behaviour, driven by apps and technology and all the rest of it?

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Rob Hadley: Yeah, and also socioeconomic things, just from the work. Work has changed. Where did people used to hook up? It used to be work.

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Rob Hadley: or the pub round associated with work, stuff like that. Now we're much more remote,

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Rob Hadley: People are much more careful in work than they used to be, which is a good thing to a degree, compared to how things were.

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Rob Hadley: Yeah, so this… Something about, actually, you're gonna have to take a step.

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Rob Hadley: And take a risk.

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Rob Hadley: But every breath we take, every step we take on, it's a song now, aren't we? But it's always a risk. We're always on the precipice of something.

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Rob Hadley: Yeah. It's learning about it.

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Rob Hadley: Okay, and sometimes that is to learn to take a step back, or to the side.

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Rob Hadley: Sometimes you have to go around a ziggy-zaggy route to get where you want, rather than the linear one.

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Rob Hadley: But each one Involves a risk, but you can minimize a risk by finding out.

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Rob Hadley: Asking people.

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The Midlife Mentors: Yay!

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Rob Hadley: How do I do this?

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Rob Hadley: someone you trust, not Albert off the internet.

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Rob Hadley: From, pay me $100 million, and I will get you a partner.

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Rob Hadley: In 3 easy steps. 5 years later, we're on step 500, and you're millions of dollars down.

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The Midlife Mentors: Yeah. Yeah.

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Rob Hadley: Sorry, I think I got lost on your question.

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The Midlife Mentors: I also, I also just think, you know, one of the questions that I was going to ask you earlier, where my brain had a complete, had a brain… what I call a brain fart.

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The Midlife Mentors: caused by hormones, I think. But it is that really, really important, very… it sounds very simple, but that men and women do communicate so, so differently. I think, you know, James… James and I learned a lot through… we speak openly about this through going to therapy.

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The Midlife Mentors: You know, a few years ago, and it was just amazing for us, but also just noticing, you know, it really educated me on how different

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The Midlife Mentors: our styles are, and this assumption, you know, these assumptions I make as a woman about how that man should communicate with me. And…

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The Midlife Mentors: We bang on about this all the time. It's so, so important to just realize that we make these assumptions, but actually, very little of the time, we're curious.

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The Midlife Mentors: about what that other person… how that other person… you know, the language to use. You said this so eloquently and so beautifully, it's like, what language, is helpful for that man to understand to use? Like, do… for example, with James, I would say, look.

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The Midlife Mentors: Instead of just accosting him and saying, I want to talk about this emotional thing NOW,

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The Midlife Mentors: you know, he was then on the back foot, thinking, oh, holy crap, this is good, this is, like, he just looked like a rabbit caught in the headlights. So, even that one simple thing of saying, James, I would really like to talk to you about something, when is a good time?

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Rob Hadley: Yeah.

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The Midlife Mentors: Like, just these… these small things, but just recognizing that we… we communicate worlds apart.

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Rob Hadley: And also, you can draw on communication techniques from other areas, too, like from work. I'd like to have a meeting, I'd like to have about this, it's gonna last this long, and then we're gonna do this.

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The Midlife Mentors: Yeah. Yes!

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Rob Hadley: Okay, and after your chat, I'm just gonna say this. What did you hear?

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The Midlife Mentors: Yeah.

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Rob Hadley: Or, I heard this. Well, I didn't actually say that. What I said was this. Oh, right. Now you've reframed it for me.

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Rob Hadley: And, while we talk about men, men are often talking metaphors, and that's what going to the pub and meeting your mate is. It's not… I'm not talking about all this hurt inside, but I'm saying, that was a terrible match!

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Rob Hadley: Wasn't it? It was a terrible thing there.

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Rob Hadley: It's that projection of the terribleness, or what's happening inside you, into another vehicle.

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Rob Hadley: But you're getting it out.

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The Midlife Mentors: Yeah.

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Rob Hadley: But again, there's something about men, about not being vulnerable.

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Rob Hadley: As well, going to therapy is absolutely… you know, find your therapist.

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Rob Hadley: You find the one that suits you, so when I was doing my PhD, as soon as I got accepted, I started seeing a therapist, because I'm a working-class bloke. I shouldn't be doing a PhD with all this

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Rob Hadley: long words that I don't understand, and these lovely, young, beautiful, really intelligent people around me, and I'm just an old fart.

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Rob Hadley: In my Primark gear, while they're doing that. So I went and saw a therapist, and I chose somebody I knew, who I knew.

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Rob Hadley: would work, and I did an awful lot of drawing.

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The Midlife Mentors: I'm…

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Rob Hadley: Poetry writing on it.

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The Midlife Mentors: Yeah.

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Rob Hadley: Around it. And that, that really got me through, so thank you, Sue, for, for really… I got my PhD, and you got it as well, as did my wife, as well, because… can I just say, everybody's got a PhD in them.

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Rob Hadley: Okay? 90% perspiration, 10% inspiration, you have got a PhD in you, and if you have a PhD in you, you've got a book in you.

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Rob Hadley: Okay.

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The Midlife Mentors: I love that. I love that. Well, that leads us on to the question about how we find out about… Well, no, I was gonna do one more, just before we get on, so I had to find out more about you, but, if there's a man listening to this now in his 40s or 50s, and he's struggling with.

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Rob Hadley: Gotcha.

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The Midlife Mentors: Nurse, you know, we talked about that gap between the expectation and where they might find themselves. What advice would you give? What can help them?

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Rob Hadley: You're not on your own.

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Rob Hadley: You're surrounded, By other voiceless men.

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Rob Hadley: That's right, and there's a power in that silence, and there's a power you can break in it. Therapy, Beaker British Infertility Counselling Association, their therapist.

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Rob Hadley: are trained… okay, it's about infertility, but it's also about being childless, about the bereavement along… because the bereavement is not only

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Rob Hadley: The loss of love, and the loss of being able to care.

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Rob Hadley: But it's that loss of social narrative as well, and loss of belonging in society, so you're… you're wandering around a bit, and for men, I don't know how to express it, because the words aren't there, so…

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Rob Hadley: Counseling is definitely one of the ways. There's a few online groups. Childless Men's Community on Facebook is for, childless, men.

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Rob Hadley: And there's some very specific, Facebook groups around male infertility, and, the Fertility Network. So there are, there are groups out there, around that.

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Rob Hadley: But also, andy's… is it Andy's?

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The Midlife Mentors: I think so.

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Rob Hadley: Andy's Club is good. You can just go… Andy's and Men's Shed, going to do something. There's lots of things you can go, and you may not think, actually, going to play bowls.

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Rob Hadley: He's gonna solve this… But actually, it just takes you out…

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Rob Hadley: Gives you another, stream to go down that you may be able to channel your metaphor through.

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The Midlife Mentors: Yeah, love that.

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Rob Hadley: You don't know who you're gonna meet.

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The Midlife Mentors: Exactly.

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The Midlife Mentors: Rob, this has been absolutely fascinating, very, emotional as well, actually, in a good way. So, thank you so much. If people want to find out more about you, where can they find out more?

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Rob Hadley: On my website, robinhood.co.uk, he said, forgetting his own website. And also, my book.

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The Midlife Mentors: Oh my god.

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Rob Hadley: We've always got a book to sell, haven't we?

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The Midlife Mentors: And your book, tell us just what your book's called, and just so you can…

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Rob Hadley: My book is called, How is a Man Supposed to Be a Man? Male Childlessness, A Life Course Disrupted? It's based on my PhD. There's poems in it, and pictures as well, and yeah, so that's available in libraries, and online, and all that sort of thing, but my website has got lots of stuff on.

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Rob Hadley: For you to delve into.

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The Midlife Mentors: Rob, what you're doing is really, really, important. I just wanna…

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The Midlife Mentors: as a woman, I really want to thank you for doing this, because… Thank you. Yeah, it's… I can feel…

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The Midlife Mentors: your love and your passion coming through. We're doing this on video. Anyone that's listening to this podcast, we're also doing this on… on video, and you can just really feel, your kindness and compassion for… for men coming through. So, I just wanted to say thank you for what you're doing.

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Rob Hadley: Thank you. Men are human too. So let's put the hues into men.

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The Midlife Mentors: Yes, love that. Thank you so much, Rob. Thank you, Rob. Thank you, Rob. God bless.