Your Brain Wasn't Built For This World: With Dr Paul Goldsmith

Today we're discussing How To Thrive In A World We Weren't Made For.

We're living in the safest, most technologically advanced time in human history... so why do so many of us feel stressed, anxious and mentally exhausted?

According to neuroscientist and author of The Evolving Brain Dr Paul Goldsmith, it's because we're trying to navigate a twenty-first century lives with a brain that's evolved for a completely different world.

Rather than beating ourselves up, what if we understood that the problem isn't that we're weak or failing - it's that our ancient survival wiring is trying to cope with a modern world it was never designed for.

In this fascinating conversation, we explore why your brain is wired the way it is, why social media, AI and modern work are pushing it to its limits, and the surprisingly simple things you can do to work with your brain instead of against it.

If you've ever wondered why your mind won't switch off, why you feel constantly "on", or why life can feel so overwhelming despite living in an age of unprecedented convenience, this episode will help make sense of it all.

Buy Dr Paul Goldsmith's Book - The Evolving Brain How To Thrive In A World We Weren’t Made For here:
https://amzn.eu/d/0bb8CJTT

https://www.drpaulgoldsmith.com/

https://femh.foundation

Transcript

1
00:00:03.610 --> 00:00:11.939
The Midlife Mentors: Hello, and welcome to another episode of the Midlife Mentors, with me, James. And me, Claire. How are we all? It's been… it's been a moment.

2
00:00:12.190 --> 00:00:35.950
The Midlife Mentors: Yes. I mean, honestly, every time we get one of these out every week, I'm thinking, it feels like a lot's happened in a week. It's all gone into a blur. Maybe our guests will be able to tell us why life disappeared in a blur. But before that, what have we been up to? I know, I was… been speaking at a couple of events, the Elevate event. Oh yeah, you did that. Did some work for some corporates as well. What have you been up to?

3
00:00:35.990 --> 00:00:46.130
The Midlife Mentors: This is when I think, oh, it sounds like I've been up to nothing. Carrying on writing our book. Yes, of course. So, that is chugging along nicely with our publisher.

4
00:00:46.130 --> 00:01:11.119
The Midlife Mentors: me not chugging along as quickly as James, but that's just how I roll, so James has to just be a bit patient. And then we had to move out of our flat for a few days, because the bathroom was being ripped out, so we went and stayed somewhere nice. We did. Last week, when it was absolutely roasting. So, actually quite fortuitous. Yes, it was. But anyway, so that's us. Without further ado, let us introduce our… this is going to be such an amazing episode, really excited to talk to you all

5
00:01:11.120 --> 00:01:18.280
The Midlife Mentors: about this, because it's very relevant for us midlifers. So, James, would you like to interview… sorry, like, introduce our…

6
00:01:18.280 --> 00:01:36.529
The Midlife Mentors: guest today. Yeah, we are thrilled to have Paul Goldsmith with us. He's a neuroscientist, he's a visiting professor at Imperial with a background in developmental biology and evolutionary neuroscience, and he's the author of The Evolving Brain, How to Thrive in a World We Weren't Made For. Welcome, Paul!

7
00:01:36.840 --> 00:01:39.459
Paul Goldsmith: A delight to be with you. Thank you for inviting me.

8
00:01:39.760 --> 00:01:55.780
The Midlife Mentors: Oh, pleasure to have you here. This is a subject that, I think we talk about all the time and find so fascinating, and you've obviously written a whole book on it. Why do we find modern life so overwhelming? What's the… what's the biological neuroscience reason behind it?

9
00:01:55.780 --> 00:02:07.060
Paul Goldsmith: Yeah, I mean, it is a… it is a puzzle for everybody, isn't it? We've got this paradox that we are so rich in the modern world, we can do fantastic things, fly to the moon.

10
00:02:07.060 --> 00:02:19.249
Paul Goldsmith: amazing technology can cure many diseases, yet we all feel so stressed, and we've got this epidemic of melancholy, and why is that? How do we explain that paradox?

11
00:02:19.310 --> 00:02:30.139
Paul Goldsmith: And I think one really important message for people is that, this natural tendency to blame ourselves for these problems is wrong.

12
00:02:30.180 --> 00:02:44.600
Paul Goldsmith: that we shouldn't blame ourself. What we need to understand instead is the fundamental reason is a mismatch between what our brains and our heads were designed to do in this modern world we're now thrust into.

13
00:02:45.280 --> 00:02:58.900
Paul Goldsmith: And perhaps the first really important concept to understand, which starts to answer your question, is how long it has taken evolution to optimize our brain.

14
00:02:59.580 --> 00:03:11.869
Paul Goldsmith: And our brain, you can think of it, the development, a bit like a tree, sort of forming a tree, so you've got the gradual growth of the trunk, and then the branches, and then the outer leaves.

15
00:03:12.710 --> 00:03:20.559
Paul Goldsmith: And that process has taken many hundreds of millions of years to gradually form.

16
00:03:21.210 --> 00:03:27.920
Paul Goldsmith: And if you think about that in terms of us as modern humans.

17
00:03:28.130 --> 00:03:36.239
Paul Goldsmith: If you think of that developmental time course as a one-kilometer walk, Homo sapiens

18
00:03:37.360 --> 00:03:56.190
Paul Goldsmith: consists of the last 60 centimeters of that walk. And the modern world, the world we now live in, the digital revolution, is less than a hair's breadth at the very end. So, like it or not, our brains have become optimized for a world so different to the one that we're now in.

19
00:03:56.750 --> 00:04:03.150
Paul Goldsmith: And it's that mismatch which I think explains so many of the modern problems.

20
00:04:04.090 --> 00:04:06.770
The Midlife Mentors: And am I right in thinking that, essentially.

21
00:04:06.890 --> 00:04:19.339
The Midlife Mentors: We've been evolutionarily wired to look for risk, to look for the pitfalls, because that's meant we've survived, and that worked, perhaps, when we were hunter-gatherers, you know, we didn't want to be surprised by a tiger.

22
00:04:19.350 --> 00:04:36.989
The Midlife Mentors: But in the modern world, particularly with technology, where we're continually bombarded by, let's call them threat signals, our brain isn't really distinguishing between, you know, oh, that's just an electronic-generated thing, and, oh, it's actually a tiger, and that's why we're struggling to cope.

23
00:04:38.180 --> 00:04:46.200
Paul Goldsmith: Yeah, no, you've gone, sort of, straight, sort of, to one of the key insights that, now, unfortunately, evolution

24
00:04:47.550 --> 00:04:57.970
Paul Goldsmith: is not interested, per se, in our happiness. What it has done, it has cooked up a set of tools to, enable our survival.

25
00:04:58.220 --> 00:05:07.450
Paul Goldsmith: Because ultimately, there's only one goal in evolution, and that is for our genes to be passed on from one generation to the next, because if they didn't do that.

26
00:05:07.460 --> 00:05:23.860
Paul Goldsmith: we'd have died out. So yes, happiness is one tool that evolution uses to motivate us and to enable survival, but it also has many others, such as pain, anxiety, as you've indicated, melancholy.

27
00:05:24.520 --> 00:05:36.950
Paul Goldsmith: Anger, blame, jealousy, these are all useful in the right context. But the modern world, pushes things outside of the normal context.

28
00:05:37.450 --> 00:05:51.080
Paul Goldsmith: So, this sort of seems sort of strange. Now, how could these things be useful? But, say, take pain. I'm a neurologist, and I see very rare patients that don't perceive any pain for genetic reasons.

29
00:05:51.210 --> 00:05:54.249
Paul Goldsmith: You can also get it from syphilis or leprosy.

30
00:05:54.530 --> 00:06:02.199
Paul Goldsmith: And they die prematurely, because pain is useful to allow us to avoid

31
00:06:02.310 --> 00:06:14.279
Paul Goldsmith: traumatic physical stimulus. Now, that does not mean that I do not want a general anaesthetic when I'm under the knife. So, it's useful, but we still want to control it.

32
00:06:15.220 --> 00:06:25.659
Paul Goldsmith: Anxiety is sort of similar in a way. I've got some patients I wish were more anxious, so this seems strange, but to keep them out of trouble.

33
00:06:26.680 --> 00:06:36.059
Paul Goldsmith: So, anxiety is useful in the right degree, and as you're suggesting, you know, imagine how it would have played out, what it was designed for.

34
00:06:36.740 --> 00:06:43.109
Paul Goldsmith: 30, 50,000 years ago, we hear a rustle in the leaves.

35
00:06:43.220 --> 00:06:47.049
Paul Goldsmith: We've got to assume the worst, that it might be a predator, and run.

36
00:06:47.480 --> 00:06:50.700
Paul Goldsmith: And if we get it wrong 99 times out of 100,

37
00:06:50.820 --> 00:06:54.770
Paul Goldsmith: That's fine. Now, we've wasted some effort, but we're still alive.

38
00:06:55.400 --> 00:06:59.010
Paul Goldsmith: And you can think of it as, like, the brain smoke alarm.

39
00:06:59.430 --> 00:07:01.340
Paul Goldsmith: And with a smoke alarm.

40
00:07:01.570 --> 00:07:08.350
Paul Goldsmith: You put up with it going off with burning toast to guarantee it will go off with a fire.

41
00:07:08.710 --> 00:07:10.460
Paul Goldsmith: But we calibrate it.

42
00:07:10.920 --> 00:07:19.520
Paul Goldsmith: So it's got the right sensitivity. And similarly, in ancient times, if we kept on running away from squirrels.

43
00:07:19.520 --> 00:07:37.619
Paul Goldsmith: we'd be out-competed, so we calibrate. But in the modern world, as you've just indicated, we've got breaking news stories from modern media from around the world, constant new threats, we've got faceless bureaucracies, and we've got our wonderful frontal lobes.

44
00:07:37.620 --> 00:07:51.320
Paul Goldsmith: which can dream up complex threats, and then hold them in our consciousness for prolonged periods. So we don't calibrate, and we have far greater range of threats. But it gets worse.

45
00:07:52.860 --> 00:08:00.790
Paul Goldsmith: Rather than… learn and recalibrate, what often happens is we withdraw.

46
00:08:01.600 --> 00:08:19.419
Paul Goldsmith: And that makes the situation worse. So, we see it with schoolchildren after COVID. Inevitably, and one of the most important, sort of, drivers for humans is social interaction. And so, social anxiety is very common, it's normal.

47
00:08:19.970 --> 00:08:31.870
Paul Goldsmith: If you withdraw from social interaction, first of all, other people will think you're a bit rude and a bit aloof, and then that can then just reinforce your view that, oh, it's me.

48
00:08:32.030 --> 00:08:44.289
Paul Goldsmith: And you get in a downward spiral. Or for the kids that were off with COVID, it's awkward, it's anxiety-provoking to come back, so they avoid it, and they just get in a downward spiral.

49
00:08:44.960 --> 00:08:56.249
Paul Goldsmith: Similarly, with adults, quite often, you're stuck on an antidepressant, an anti-anxiety drug, you stay off work, you stay away from the stressful situation.

50
00:08:56.650 --> 00:08:58.769
Paul Goldsmith: And you end up in a downward spiral.

51
00:08:58.900 --> 00:09:09.520
Paul Goldsmith: There are many situations, actually, in modern world where structures can make things worse, but I think anxiety is one good example.

52
00:09:11.620 --> 00:09:16.370
The Midlife Mentors: You just mentioned… well, you mentioned a couple of times, melancholy.

53
00:09:16.530 --> 00:09:23.629
The Midlife Mentors: And that's a really interesting word for me, because I've… I can see how that kind of…

54
00:09:24.120 --> 00:09:35.290
The Midlife Mentors: in relation to isolating yourself, you then also become quite melancholy, and I just really sense that that word might resonate with some of our listeners. Can you speak

55
00:09:35.440 --> 00:09:48.349
The Midlife Mentors: To that a little bit more, like, why was that one of the words that you used a few times? It must be something that you see a lot, but can you just explain what that looks like a bit more, so people can understand? Oh, yeah, that looks like me.

56
00:09:48.350 --> 00:09:52.689
Paul Goldsmith: And I use the word melancholy deliberately rather than depression.

57
00:09:53.010 --> 00:09:54.110
The Midlife Mentors: depression.

58
00:09:54.110 --> 00:10:11.289
Paul Goldsmith: is a very loaded word, and it means different things to different people, and actually, there's probably depressions, different forms, different routes to it. You know, we all have experienced depression, actually, when we get the flu, and the body is signaling to us

59
00:10:11.360 --> 00:10:16.280
Paul Goldsmith: Don't do stuff. It is, it's not the optimal thing to do.

60
00:10:16.670 --> 00:10:26.159
Paul Goldsmith: But melancholy, so, let me take a step back. What is the fundamental difference between a plant and an animal?

61
00:10:28.580 --> 00:10:42.809
Paul Goldsmith: many will say, hmm, photosynthesis. Well, actually, we photosynthesize in our skin. We make vitamin D from ultraviolet light. So, actually, the fundamental difference is that animals move, as in change location.

62
00:10:42.860 --> 00:10:51.460
Paul Goldsmith: So that's what everything is ultimately about, and our brains, the raison d'etre for our brain is to motivate movement towards a goal.

63
00:10:51.840 --> 00:10:55.699
Paul Goldsmith: That goal may be finding a mate, avoiding a predator.

64
00:10:56.130 --> 00:11:06.960
Paul Goldsmith: shelter, food, etc, but it's all goal-directed behaviour. And we are rewarded, we are induced to pursue a goal.

65
00:11:07.160 --> 00:11:12.300
Paul Goldsmith: by the release of dopamine, primarily, so that is the fuel of goal pursuit.

66
00:11:12.440 --> 00:11:15.230
Paul Goldsmith: The critical word there is pursuit.

67
00:11:15.580 --> 00:11:34.779
Paul Goldsmith: So, nature never envisaged us just suddenly being teleported to the end goal. You know, just sort of sitting passively and stuff arriving. So, the journey is much more important than the destination, and just receiving things passively deprives us of that…

68
00:11:34.960 --> 00:11:38.220
Paul Goldsmith: overall reward process.

69
00:11:38.370 --> 00:11:42.390
Paul Goldsmith: So, you know, Pavlov's dogs that many people will be familiar with.

70
00:11:42.900 --> 00:11:46.439
Paul Goldsmith: Fed sausages would salivate with the sausages.

71
00:11:46.620 --> 00:11:50.939
Paul Goldsmith: But they'd go stir-crazy if they couldn't run after the stick.

72
00:11:51.150 --> 00:12:09.339
Paul Goldsmith: So we've got to… this core mechanism of goal pursuit, but the brain is constantly making a calculation. Is the progression towards the goal, is the effort still worth it? Or should I shift?

73
00:12:09.810 --> 00:12:14.629
Paul Goldsmith: So, imagine how this would play out. Imagine a deer…

74
00:12:14.770 --> 00:12:32.880
Paul Goldsmith: In winter, it's really hungry, it knows of some food a couple of valleys away, and it sets off. That's its goal. But the going is really tough, it's really marshy, the weather's closing in, he is a potential predator. The brain may make a calculation, it's not worth it anymore.

75
00:12:33.300 --> 00:12:34.700
Paul Goldsmith: Disengage.

76
00:12:34.900 --> 00:12:41.910
Paul Goldsmith: return to base. And the associated emotion is melancholy. So melancholy is actually

77
00:12:42.010 --> 00:12:55.960
Paul Goldsmith: signaling to us… it's like the pain signaling to us, withdraw from that painful stimulus, you're stepping on something. Melancholy is saying, withdraw. The goal is no longer worth it. Modern life.

78
00:12:56.730 --> 00:12:59.630
Paul Goldsmith: So, ancient times, what were our goals?

79
00:12:59.940 --> 00:13:09.109
Paul Goldsmith: They're played out really quickly over minutes, hours, maybe days. Reliable feedback. Am I making progress towards the bush, the… the…

80
00:13:09.520 --> 00:13:15.169
Paul Goldsmith: the wild boar that we're chasing. Modern life, what are our goals?

81
00:13:15.340 --> 00:13:32.229
Paul Goldsmith: the complex, cognitive, in… conflicting, played out not over hours or days, but years or even decades. Get that job title, get that promotion, get that bigger house.

82
00:13:32.320 --> 00:13:36.379
Paul Goldsmith: And the comparison is not with a group of

83
00:13:36.750 --> 00:13:41.539
Paul Goldsmith: 20 people in our tribe, they're all very similar. It's with

84
00:13:41.820 --> 00:13:48.939
Paul Goldsmith: Billions, artificially created by social media, that we can never

85
00:13:49.020 --> 00:13:58.639
Paul Goldsmith: realistically compete with. So, we've got goals that are being thrust upon us by parents, peers, social media, that

86
00:13:58.690 --> 00:14:12.489
Paul Goldsmith: we can't reach very often, so we're receiving signals that we're not making sufficient progress. What does that trigger? Very basic mechanism in our brain, goal pursuit, goal withdrawal, you know.

87
00:14:12.610 --> 00:14:21.520
Paul Goldsmith: happy, melancholy, accelerator and brake being slammed on together. And I think that explains so much of the epidemic of

88
00:14:21.710 --> 00:14:24.100
Paul Goldsmith: Misery that we have in the modern world.

89
00:14:24.970 --> 00:14:30.189
The Midlife Mentors: I'm so glad I asked that question. I felt like that was a nugget to… to…

90
00:14:30.310 --> 00:14:41.680
The Midlife Mentors: hold onto there, and you've just explained that in such a… and I can see myself in that. I can… I'm sure everyone else can, listening to this. I think the real moment for me, when you talk about, you know, we're not designed for a life where

91
00:14:41.870 --> 00:14:49.260
The Midlife Mentors: The goal comes to us, effectively, so we're not actually actively out there, so then we're lacking this purpose.

92
00:14:49.390 --> 00:14:54.069
The Midlife Mentors: Because that's so true, and that's getting more and more the case, you know? You can find a date

93
00:14:54.180 --> 00:15:00.289
The Midlife Mentors: from your sofa by flicking an app. You can order any food you want within a few minutes by flicking an app.

94
00:15:00.290 --> 00:15:17.899
The Midlife Mentors: there's no kind of effort involved, really. It's that quick fix. It's that quick fix thing that, as well, that I was… I was thinking about when you said that as well. Like, that whole process of the journey is the dopamine, it's the reward, but we're all going after this quick fix. You know, we talk about,

95
00:15:18.030 --> 00:15:30.669
The Midlife Mentors: you know, GLP-1s, and we talk about this and that. It's very instant gratification, but what you're saying is, is the joy is in that process, but it's also a chemical thing, it's a neurological thing.

96
00:15:30.670 --> 00:15:40.059
Paul Goldsmith: It is absolutely a neurochemical thing. That is what our brains are designed to do. So we have this, as you've highlighted, a double whammy. So we're both

97
00:15:41.500 --> 00:15:55.999
Paul Goldsmith: more passive than is good for us, for many people, and societal structures create that, so I… it's not… I don't want to blame anybody for it, so really, it should not be a blame thing, it's just a recognition this is…

98
00:15:56.050 --> 00:16:03.740
Paul Goldsmith: how things have been sort of stressed upon us. So we're both… too passive.

99
00:16:03.930 --> 00:16:08.480
Paul Goldsmith: But also, we are actively pursuing goals which are unachievable.

100
00:16:08.650 --> 00:16:12.979
Paul Goldsmith: So we're losing, potentially, on both fronts.

101
00:16:13.290 --> 00:16:22.419
Paul Goldsmith: But you can be empowered to do something about it. Just realizing what's going on, you can make better choices. You can…

102
00:16:22.780 --> 00:16:30.920
Paul Goldsmith: identify, things which are useful gold pursuits, which will provide that reward.

103
00:16:31.030 --> 00:16:32.770
Paul Goldsmith: When you're perceiving

104
00:16:32.900 --> 00:16:44.390
Paul Goldsmith: sort of getting that signal. Now, why am I feeling a little bit sad? And, oh, actually, yeah, it's because I've received this signal that I'm not making sufficient progress. Well, I'm just not getting any signal at all.

105
00:16:44.390 --> 00:16:53.620
Paul Goldsmith: Well, just sort of reappraising that can provide enough of a lift to still have the grit to go after things, but not beat yourself up about it.

106
00:16:54.780 --> 00:17:08.010
The Midlife Mentors: I love that. And Paul, I want to come back to the example of the deer, and I'm going to make a big assumption that deers don't have ego, because what we've seen recently, trending, is kind of this, like.

107
00:17:08.220 --> 00:17:16.239
The Midlife Mentors: grinding culture, right? You've got these influencers, like, yeah, if you're not up at 4am, grinding relentlessly to your goals, and…

108
00:17:16.260 --> 00:17:34.320
The Midlife Mentors: I think it's fair to say, like, there's a place for discipline and having a goal and going for it, but a lot of people can get lost, they don't stop to evaluate, do I even want this thing anymore? They're not in that feedback loop, and sometimes it's ego just, like, having said, I'm gonna do this thing that keeps them going. Where does that sit in the whole…

109
00:17:34.550 --> 00:17:35.770
The Midlife Mentors: equation.

110
00:17:37.070 --> 00:17:47.220
Paul Goldsmith: so where do our goals come from? Because, you know, Maslow's hierarchy of needs, which many people will have heard of, sort of the layering of

111
00:17:47.340 --> 00:18:02.970
Paul Goldsmith: the most fundamental goals we will be motivated to take care of first. So, oxygen, you know, if you're starved of oxygen, all other thoughts and worries will disappear from your head, because you're focused on that, and then water.

112
00:18:02.970 --> 00:18:10.989
Paul Goldsmith: food, shelter. Now, in the modern world, they're largely taken care of. So, what becomes most important for us

113
00:18:11.000 --> 00:18:13.580
Paul Goldsmith: Our social goals.

114
00:18:13.960 --> 00:18:20.569
Paul Goldsmith: And I think this is a really important concept as well. So, we are a, social species.

115
00:18:21.320 --> 00:18:25.510
Paul Goldsmith: And go back 20, 30, 50,000 years ago.

116
00:18:26.280 --> 00:18:28.600
Paul Goldsmith: For what our brains were designed for.

117
00:18:28.740 --> 00:18:32.490
Paul Goldsmith: We lived in groups of 30, 50 people.

118
00:18:32.830 --> 00:18:37.419
Paul Goldsmith: If we were excluded from that group, we would die. It's lethal.

119
00:18:37.610 --> 00:18:43.020
Paul Goldsmith: So… It is so important for us to be part of the group.

120
00:18:43.430 --> 00:18:54.800
Paul Goldsmith: And therefore, receiving signals from other humans that we belong, that we are accepted and will be looked after by that group, is…

121
00:18:55.020 --> 00:19:09.890
Paul Goldsmith: is critical, and so we do things which will elicit those signals, and we feel reward if we receive them, and melancholy if we don't. So broadly, you can call that validation, so the need for validation.

122
00:19:10.550 --> 00:19:13.459
Paul Goldsmith: But as well as being accepted by the group.

123
00:19:13.580 --> 00:19:21.770
Paul Goldsmith: We are also motivated by where we stand within the group. So our relative position is also important, so what might be broadly called status.

124
00:19:22.310 --> 00:19:30.889
Paul Goldsmith: Like it or not, that is what we're driven by, so validation and status. So, again, think how this would play out. We're in a group of 50.

125
00:19:31.490 --> 00:19:41.609
Paul Goldsmith: And what do we do? We go together on hunts, we make tools, I… we cook…

126
00:19:41.720 --> 00:19:56.960
Paul Goldsmith: Now, you might be a bit of a better runner than me, you might be a slightly better toolmaker than me, but there's not much difference, and we're all contributing, and we're receiving real-time feedback. So it's a fairly shallow, validation and status spread.

127
00:19:58.350 --> 00:20:08.729
Paul Goldsmith: Now, with modern media, and what we're told from influencers, is the thing which will attract The status stamp.

128
00:20:08.930 --> 00:20:16.679
Paul Goldsmith: is unachievable. It's just… there's an arms race. There's always going to be something better.

129
00:20:16.820 --> 00:20:18.989
Paul Goldsmith: So, I mean, an example would be…

130
00:20:19.140 --> 00:20:22.959
Paul Goldsmith: I know quite a few politicians, and…

131
00:20:24.060 --> 00:20:32.170
Paul Goldsmith: people who have just got everything. They've been really successful in their lives, rich, but they're overlooked for an honour.

132
00:20:32.480 --> 00:20:34.390
Paul Goldsmith: And they get so upset.

133
00:20:34.690 --> 00:20:43.300
Paul Goldsmith: Because it's a… it's an arms race, and there will always be some… something more, some… some extra thing. So…

134
00:20:43.460 --> 00:20:46.829
Paul Goldsmith: Status is a very interesting thing. It is…

135
00:20:47.480 --> 00:21:06.789
Paul Goldsmith: what drives a lot of progress of institutions and countries, so it's… it's useful for them to drive progress, but actually, at the individual level, it can be psychologically really harmful. So we need to sort of think, how is it influencing us, and how can we get control of it again?

136
00:21:08.200 --> 00:21:17.699
The Midlife Mentors: I also think one of the things that you mentioned is about people beating themselves up, and… and there is so much… there's that… I call that productivity shaming.

137
00:21:17.810 --> 00:21:29.389
The Midlife Mentors: You know, like, oh, get up, 4.30, I've done this, I've done this, I've done that. But people do look at their lives and think, my goodness, I'm really missing the mark here, and it's because I am not resilient enough.

138
00:21:29.620 --> 00:21:49.090
The Midlife Mentors: Like, I'm feeling… I'm feeling so overwhelmed, and I can't catch a break, and I am, yeah, missing the mark in comparison to XYZ on social media, so there must be something wrong with me, and maybe I'm not very resilient. What would you say to someone that might be thinking that, listening to this?

139
00:21:49.500 --> 00:21:53.109
Paul Goldsmith: It's understandable that they're thinking that way, but…

140
00:21:53.240 --> 00:22:01.239
Paul Goldsmith: they're drawing the wrong… they're drawing an understandable, but a wrong conclusion. So, it is not failure on their part. It is…

141
00:22:01.400 --> 00:22:15.410
Paul Goldsmith: It's a brain mismatch problem. So the brain has been pushed outside of its limits by the expectations from this status arms race, to… to create unachievable goals.

142
00:22:16.030 --> 00:22:28.809
The Midlife Mentors: Wow. Thank you. That was a really good… I hope you've heard that, listeners. I know I certainly am. I'm taking a lot from this. And Paul, I think it's really obvious, everyone listening, like, kind of the role of social media

143
00:22:28.810 --> 00:22:44.250
The Midlife Mentors: in pushing that comparison and that whole status raise, right? Because we see everyone else's highlight reels, not reality, just an image, and that can be unhealthy and drives in a healthy way, but I'm curious, like, AI is obviously becoming a bit of a player now.

144
00:22:44.510 --> 00:22:48.069
The Midlife Mentors: How do you see that impacting

145
00:22:48.560 --> 00:23:01.290
The Midlife Mentors: people's neuroscience and developmental, you know, we used to think of school, we'd go and we'd learn facts by rote, and we'd get experience, but now everything's available just by asking the question to a device. What are the downsides of that?

146
00:23:02.650 --> 00:23:11.390
Paul Goldsmith: Yeah, so it's… if we sort of think of the leaps which have occurred with SAPIMs, you know, one of the major leaps

147
00:23:11.850 --> 00:23:26.490
Paul Goldsmith: was the, evolution of literacy. So, rather than, as things would have been, we just pass things on from generation to generation, so you copy what parents or others in the tribe did.

148
00:23:26.680 --> 00:23:34.399
Paul Goldsmith: So, nothing would have changed, or very little, over thousands of years. When you have this external memory.

149
00:23:34.840 --> 00:23:41.430
Paul Goldsmith: Of literature, effectively, your brain, in a way, becomes externalized. So…

150
00:23:41.690 --> 00:23:50.630
Paul Goldsmith: writing by writing, things grow and become more complex. So, you can be born in…

151
00:23:50.780 --> 00:24:07.709
Paul Goldsmith: 1990, or whenever it is, and you've already got this enormous knowledge set that you can acquire, which has been passed on through literature. So, at one level, AI is just an extension, it's another jump up in that externalization of the brain, from

152
00:24:07.780 --> 00:24:23.160
Paul Goldsmith: simple transmission between a group to a worldwide accretion, gradual layering of increasing complexity, but it's clearly just a logarithmic jump up. I mean, it just… the degree is

153
00:24:23.160 --> 00:24:30.810
Paul Goldsmith: frightening. No great opportunities for progress in some areas, but also frightening negativities. Now.

154
00:24:30.880 --> 00:24:33.449
Paul Goldsmith: I think in terms of your specific question around

155
00:24:33.680 --> 00:24:36.879
Paul Goldsmith: What harm is it doing already?

156
00:24:37.730 --> 00:24:42.799
Paul Goldsmith: Potentially one, which there's already a literature on, is…

157
00:24:43.590 --> 00:24:46.619
Paul Goldsmith: It comes down to actually one of the fundamental

158
00:24:47.660 --> 00:24:57.950
Paul Goldsmith: rules of the brain and the whole body, which is really important for people to appreciate, you know it already, really, which is use it or lose it. And,

159
00:24:58.060 --> 00:25:01.579
Paul Goldsmith: One of the very early studies on this,

160
00:25:01.680 --> 00:25:20.199
Paul Goldsmith: going the opposite way was the London Taxi Driver Study, what people will be familiar with, that London taxi drivers used to need to learn all of the roads in London, and in the early days of MRI brain scans, they measured the visuospatial area of the brain and showed that it grew.

161
00:25:20.800 --> 00:25:25.070
Paul Goldsmith: during that training period. And then when they retired, it shrank back down.

162
00:25:26.620 --> 00:25:34.859
Paul Goldsmith: And they compared it to medical students who also need to learn loads of facts, but more distributed across their brain, and they didn't see that visuospatial growth.

163
00:25:35.460 --> 00:25:38.649
Paul Goldsmith: The opposite is now happening, so now we don't…

164
00:25:38.860 --> 00:25:57.200
Paul Goldsmith: use maps at all, we just… or think about visuospatial, it's all done through sat-navs, and so you're seeing a shrinkage. And I think that some similar thing is likely to happen, that if you don't use the mathematical bit of your brain, or another part of your brain.

165
00:25:57.440 --> 00:26:01.059
Paul Goldsmith: It's going to, you know, negatively adapt, shrink.

166
00:26:03.800 --> 00:26:13.259
Paul Goldsmith: The social, so much of our brain is optimized to handle social relations, the social brain hypothesis, and why we out-competed

167
00:26:13.380 --> 00:26:16.859
Paul Goldsmith: other, human species, like Neanderthals.

168
00:26:17.020 --> 00:26:29.699
Paul Goldsmith: during COVID, particularly the elderly, lost social interactions, and that may have accelerated, progression to dementia.

169
00:26:29.910 --> 00:26:36.100
Paul Goldsmith: So, use it or lose it is, I think, a fundamental rule for both the brain and also the body.

170
00:26:36.560 --> 00:26:38.090
The Midlife Mentors: Yeah, love her.

171
00:26:38.330 --> 00:26:44.099
The Midlife Mentors: So, if our brains weren't designed for modern life.

172
00:26:44.920 --> 00:26:48.860
The Midlife Mentors: what are some of the things we can start to realistically do, Paul?

173
00:26:50.290 --> 00:27:01.219
Paul Goldsmith: So the first thing is to get an understanding of what's going on. So when you have an emotion, and you sort of think, you know, what's wrong with me?

174
00:27:02.730 --> 00:27:06.479
Paul Goldsmith: Instead, think, what is my brain trying to signal to me?

175
00:27:07.180 --> 00:27:11.160
Paul Goldsmith: So… so that is the most, sort of, first empowering thing.

176
00:27:11.920 --> 00:27:20.389
Paul Goldsmith: Then, again, just thinking of the fundamentals, think about what goals you are pursuing in life.

177
00:27:20.700 --> 00:27:29.800
Paul Goldsmith: both on a daily basis in the short-term and your longer-term goals. Think about what feedback, the progress you're making, and

178
00:27:30.180 --> 00:27:39.150
Paul Goldsmith: Recalibrate, either by seeking more signals or just thinking differently about the way your brain is processing.

179
00:27:39.440 --> 00:27:46.339
Paul Goldsmith: I think, physical is so important, so the benefits of physical activity.

180
00:27:46.640 --> 00:28:01.770
Paul Goldsmith: in terms of the most reliable way to get those flows of dopamine, it's actually physical activity. And then the social is so important as well. Now, we are a social species, the social goals around validation, and

181
00:28:02.260 --> 00:28:07.490
Paul Goldsmith: You know, sensible, sort of, status, signals.

182
00:28:08.050 --> 00:28:13.869
Paul Goldsmith: you know, in a positive, properly calibrated way. And…

183
00:28:14.040 --> 00:28:22.380
Paul Goldsmith: Friendships are so important for goals, but not… the,

184
00:28:22.590 --> 00:28:32.339
Paul Goldsmith: vast numbers of followers on LinkedIn or social media. Now, LinkedIn is useful as a tool for work, in terms of

185
00:28:32.840 --> 00:28:37.669
Paul Goldsmith: Having, you know, people you can contact, but it's not…

186
00:28:37.990 --> 00:28:40.590
Paul Goldsmith: It doesn't get to the crux of

187
00:28:40.900 --> 00:28:44.450
Paul Goldsmith: The sorts of relationships which are important for well-being.

188
00:28:44.620 --> 00:28:48.970
Paul Goldsmith: And what's most important are our close, enduring relationships.

189
00:28:49.430 --> 00:28:53.860
Paul Goldsmith: And there's been quite a bit of work done in this by Robin Dunbar, who was the…

190
00:28:54.020 --> 00:29:00.669
Paul Goldsmith: academic who came up with a social brain hypothesis, and something called the Dunbar number, which is the number of

191
00:29:00.790 --> 00:29:10.340
Paul Goldsmith: relations our brains can manage, which is about 150, it caps out at 150. But what he showed was it was the… the inner core

192
00:29:11.010 --> 00:29:20.420
Paul Goldsmith: what do you call it? The shoulders to cry on. So people who would drop everything if we had a problem, and help us, that correlated with…

193
00:29:20.520 --> 00:29:34.500
Paul Goldsmith: our well-being, psychological health, but also our overall survival, cardiovascular survival, survival from cancer. That group is really critical. And unfortunately, some people have got nobody.

194
00:29:34.710 --> 00:29:39.870
Paul Goldsmith: You're sort of really looking, ideally, for 3 to 5 people.

195
00:29:40.080 --> 00:29:55.529
Paul Goldsmith: Occasionally people have more, but it requires effort. You've got to put the effort in, and in busy lives, there's an opportunity cost. If we're doing one thing, we can't do another. So I think one message would be.

196
00:29:55.980 --> 00:30:03.189
Paul Goldsmith: create enough time and put enough effort into a core group of stable friends. That's a really important goal in life.

197
00:30:03.820 --> 00:30:11.110
The Midlife Mentors: Wow. I love that. I absolutely love that, because there is a paradox in this modern world, isn't it? We're… we're hyper-connected.

198
00:30:11.290 --> 00:30:25.340
The Midlife Mentors: due to technology, but we're kind of deluding ourselves that we have this… this network, and yet the stats are saying that we're actually, you know, verging on a loneliness epidemic. People feel more isolated and lonely before, because they don't have these real-world relationships.

199
00:30:25.750 --> 00:30:28.870
The Midlife Mentors: Would you say that's the thing that would make the biggest difference? Like…

200
00:30:29.290 --> 00:30:33.110
The Midlife Mentors: Being curious, and getting out there and having real-world relationships.

201
00:30:34.190 --> 00:30:42.889
Paul Goldsmith: Yeah, yeah, I mean, if you sort of summarize the messages, and some people say, oh, yeah, well, I knew all of that, it is…

202
00:30:43.020 --> 00:30:49.119
Paul Goldsmith: You know, do stuff… Physical, cognitive, social.

203
00:30:49.690 --> 00:31:01.600
Paul Goldsmith: core group of friends as a summary, and you say, well, that's obvious, but actually, if you understand why, the logic, it's much easier to accept and do.

204
00:31:02.040 --> 00:31:02.530
The Midlife Mentors: Mmm.

205
00:31:02.530 --> 00:31:21.089
Paul Goldsmith: So this is sort of some of the advice is… things that people know already. Now, there's a lot of advice out there which I think is wrong, lots which is right. By knowing what our brains are evolved to do, I think then it's much easier to filter the good from the bad, and take it on board and do it.

206
00:31:21.820 --> 00:31:42.369
The Midlife Mentors: Yeah, because I was just thinking the word shame came up then, actually. It was kind of like, I don't… you know, I might know all of this, consciously, I might, of course, be listening and going, yeah, yeah, yeah, of course, but actually, my isol… my… my shame, and that I'm not doing well enough, and all these kind of things that I'm telling myself that aren't true.

207
00:31:42.410 --> 00:31:50.880
The Midlife Mentors: are holding me back from going out there and doing that, but I think this awareness piece, this is why it's so powerful, awareness.

208
00:31:51.020 --> 00:32:04.579
The Midlife Mentors: precedes change, doesn't it? We can't change what we're not aware of, so that's the power of what we're talking about here, and your book, is to give people access to information about what's going on in their brain that's making them feel a certain way.

209
00:32:05.090 --> 00:32:21.850
Paul Goldsmith: Yeah, and it takes time. Another fundamental rule of the brain is use it or lose it. The other one is neurons that fire together wire together. So that's how our brains work and learn. If you're exposed to two things at the same time.

210
00:32:21.920 --> 00:32:26.660
Paul Goldsmith: The brain forms an association, you know, it wires them together.

211
00:32:26.870 --> 00:32:41.930
Paul Goldsmith: that takes time. We know that from learning stuff. You've got to repeat things again and again and again. So, if you get new insights, and you try to think a different way, you've just got to accept, you've got to repeat, and it will gradually rewire.

212
00:32:42.510 --> 00:32:49.919
The Midlife Mentors: I love that. Wow, this has been absolutely fascinating, and so, so useful. I've got, I've got one final question.

213
00:32:50.040 --> 00:32:53.589
The Midlife Mentors: What's one modern habit that people should ditch?

214
00:32:58.090 --> 00:33:01.489
Paul Goldsmith: gosh, I mean, there's so many. I think one…

215
00:33:02.940 --> 00:33:15.279
Paul Goldsmith: I mean, another insight is that, our environment is very, very potent in terms of, how we behave.

216
00:33:15.380 --> 00:33:17.599
Paul Goldsmith: And far more than we realize.

217
00:33:17.970 --> 00:33:24.300
Paul Goldsmith: So, to say, how do you ditch habits?

218
00:33:25.300 --> 00:33:39.540
Paul Goldsmith: it's… it's… willpower is overrated. And again, sort of, you then blame yourself, you know, I'm still eating that cake, or whatever it is.

219
00:33:39.600 --> 00:33:50.610
Paul Goldsmith: And it's by… because we underappreciate the potency of environment. And therefore, one habit actually could be to change your environment.

220
00:33:50.730 --> 00:34:03.400
Paul Goldsmith: Which, yeah, you could say, well, it's easier said than done. You know, if you… if you live in an area where you're surrounded by fast food, or where everyone smokes, or all of your friends drink.

221
00:34:04.630 --> 00:34:11.409
Paul Goldsmith: Look, you're gonna… it's gonna be tough not to do the same. But, yeah.

222
00:34:11.840 --> 00:34:16.189
Paul Goldsmith: try and optimize your environment, I think would be another message.

223
00:34:17.819 --> 00:34:29.509
The Midlife Mentors: And Paul, do you think we haven't covered something here on this chat, this amazing chat we have with you? Do you feel like there's something that we haven't covered that you would want listeners to know?

224
00:34:31.139 --> 00:34:39.589
Paul Goldsmith: Probably another of the big developments, of our brain,

225
00:34:39.999 --> 00:34:47.239
Paul Goldsmith: Which is both a wonderful thing, but it also traps us, is the frontal lobe development, of…

226
00:34:47.409 --> 00:34:54.789
Paul Goldsmith: primates, and in particular, sapiens. And our frontal lobes allow us to… I'm…

227
00:34:55.249 --> 00:35:06.129
Paul Goldsmith: Hold multi-step processes and play scenarios in our heads, and then hold them in our heads, so they make us less reactive and more planned.

228
00:35:07.209 --> 00:35:15.999
Paul Goldsmith: That allows us to create fantastic things, and, be less immediately impulsive.

229
00:35:16.749 --> 00:35:23.699
Paul Goldsmith: However, it also allows us to become paranoid and…

230
00:35:24.109 --> 00:35:28.279
Paul Goldsmith: concoct up, complex threats which aren't there.

231
00:35:28.399 --> 00:35:37.849
Paul Goldsmith: And… hold them in our brains long term. And then societal structures exacerbate that.

232
00:35:38.469 --> 00:35:40.959
Paul Goldsmith: And I think that's another big problem we've got, so…

233
00:35:41.319 --> 00:35:55.329
Paul Goldsmith: Okay, so think how things have played out. So, you steal my food, because you're really hungry. That would have happened. And so we've got these control mechanisms around positive reward if I do something good for you, but if you

234
00:35:55.489 --> 00:35:58.799
Paul Goldsmith: naughty, I'm gonna be cross with you, and I'm gonna…

235
00:35:59.049 --> 00:36:01.819
Paul Goldsmith: Blame and shame, and you're gonna feel guilt.

236
00:36:02.409 --> 00:36:10.509
Paul Goldsmith: But it would be over quickly, and tomorrow, you've got to cooperate, and you're forgiven, because you're now cooperating on the hunt.

237
00:36:11.249 --> 00:36:19.289
Paul Goldsmith: Modern life, we have legal systems, and other structures which

238
00:36:19.739 --> 00:36:28.199
Paul Goldsmith: hold these sort of negative, festering thoughts in our head, not for days, but for years. And…

239
00:36:28.379 --> 00:36:36.429
Paul Goldsmith: and we ruminate, we sort of stay awake at night, thinking, oh, no, actually, he's done this, this, and this, and I'm gonna…

240
00:36:36.489 --> 00:36:49.309
Paul Goldsmith: address it through these ways. If I'd only done that, it's… it's largely unhelpful, so rumination, I think the psychologists who studied it would say it's not a useful thing to do.

241
00:36:49.489 --> 00:36:58.749
Paul Goldsmith: But it's something our brains, our frontal lobes are prone to do. So recognizing that downside of our, you know, fantastic multi-step

242
00:36:59.439 --> 00:37:05.499
Paul Goldsmith: long-term holding frontal lobes can also be destructive, would be, I think, another insight I would offer.

243
00:37:06.570 --> 00:37:13.710
The Midlife Mentors: Well, some of the things that we say a lot is we're just bombarded, and you've said already, is we're bombarded by this constant noise.

244
00:37:13.720 --> 00:37:32.499
The Midlife Mentors: And so, like, even on a walk or a run, we'll put a podcast on, so more information, more noise, and, like, sometimes that can just build up this confusion, this overwhelm, this, oh, this health person said this, but this other person said this, and that just kind of, I presume, adds to this rumination of…

245
00:37:32.810 --> 00:37:35.960
The Midlife Mentors: And… yeah, over-information.

246
00:37:36.760 --> 00:37:46.350
Paul Goldsmith: Yeah, and then we're holding so many, things in our head that we've got to do, and therefore potentially can conflict with each other, and that we're not making.

247
00:37:46.350 --> 00:37:46.820
The Midlife Mentors: Oh, God.

248
00:37:46.820 --> 00:37:49.580
Paul Goldsmith: towards, again, that acceleration brake problem.

249
00:37:49.730 --> 00:37:51.699
Paul Goldsmith: There's just too much.

250
00:37:53.620 --> 00:38:09.620
The Midlife Mentors: Wow. Oh, Paul, this has been absolutely fascinating. This is right up our street. I absolutely could talk to you for such a long time, but yes! So, if people can get your book, The Evolving Brain, How to Thrive in a World We Weren't Made For, are there any other ways people can get in touch with you or learn more about you?

251
00:38:10.430 --> 00:38:24.570
Paul Goldsmith: So I think there's a couple of talks I've given. I did a sort of specialist one for a psychiatry audience, so, there'll be some stuff on… some stuff online.

252
00:38:24.700 --> 00:38:31.609
Paul Goldsmith: But no, I think… the book would be the first place to… to… to go. It's…

253
00:38:31.810 --> 00:38:36.220
Paul Goldsmith: It's sort of written on different levels.

254
00:38:36.910 --> 00:38:42.520
Paul Goldsmith: So there's something there, I think, for everybody. It…

255
00:38:43.330 --> 00:38:50.899
Paul Goldsmith: it's got a lot of practical advice in. It's interesting, it's got quite a lot of clinical case history, so there's a little bit of Oliver Sacks

256
00:38:51.090 --> 00:38:52.619
Paul Goldsmith: Type stuff in there.

257
00:38:53.050 --> 00:38:55.959
Paul Goldsmith: But is aimed to be useful for people.

258
00:38:55.960 --> 00:39:11.079
The Midlife Mentors: Brilliant. Okay, listeners, get that book. Yes. Paul, thank you for everything you're doing. Yeah, thank you for being on our podcast, but also for everything you're doing to help people feel less alone with this, and understand it. It's amazing. Thank you so much.