Building HER with Katja Lillian

The $900 Investment That Changed My Life w/ Coach Jennie

• Katja Lillian

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In this deeply personal and full-circle episode of Building HER, I’m sitting down with the very first coach I ever hired, Coach Jennie, the woman who helped shape the version of me that built this business, this podcast, and this life. I'll let her introduce herself:

Jennie of Jennie + Meredyth here. We work with people with impatient ambition…people - like YOU - who have done great things, but want waaay more, and it's not happening fast enough. We help you actually accomplish what matters most to you so that you can get farther, faster!  We run our growing two-woman empire from the road full-time in our beautiful 28' Airstream trailer with our trusty, little, 4 pound sidekick, Sadie. 

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Before the clients, before the income, before SheEO…
There was a version of me who felt stuck, lost, and unsure of what was next. 

And this conversation?
It’s a behind-the-scenes look at what actually shifts everything.

This is not just about coaching.
This is about identity, self-trust, and the decision to finally bet on yourself.

In this episode, we get into:

  • The real reason you feel stuck (and why it’s NOT lack of strategy)
  • What coaching actually is - and why so many people still misunderstand it
  • The mindset shift that allowed me to leave corporate and build a 6-figure business
  • Why “financial oxygen” might be the smartest move you make (especially in the beginning)
  • The truth about building a coaching business in a “saturated” market
  • How to stop overthinking and start signing clients (without needing it all figured out)
  • The difference between learning about business vs actually building one
  • Why your inner critic isn’t the problem - and how to work with it instead of against it
  • How to create momentum even when you only have pockets of time (hello, mom life)

This episode is for you if:

  • You’ve been thinking about becoming a coach… but haven’t said it out loud yet
  • You feel stuck in your 9–5 but don’t know your next move
  • You’re consuming content but not actually taking action
  • You’re questioning if coaching is “too saturated”
  • You’re ready to build something of your own but fear keeps creeping in

Want to connect with Jennie? 👉🏼

Hello, and welcome to this week's episode of the Building Her podcast. I'm your host, Kati Lillian. I am so, so excited for today's episode. You guys are in for a treat because I have my very first. Coach ever. She was my life coach that I hired back in Chicago in 2019. I was 26 years old and I hired her$900 for a nine week group coaching program, and she's never been on the podcast, so I was like, what the fuck? We need to bring her onto the podcast because. There is a version of me today who would not be here without this woman that you're about to meet. And I don't say that lightly because before the business, before the clients, before the podcast, before she eo, there was a version of me who was confused, stuck. And just trying to figure it out, right?'cause I worked at my tech company and I just didn't know what else I wanted or what else was out there for me. But I knew where I currently was, was not it, and I didn't know how to take the first step outside of that stuck feeling. And so I, I think I just Googled. And I found this amazing article featuring Jenny never met her. I didn't even follow her on Instagram, but the words that were written on this webpage spoke to me like she was in my brain. And so I decided right then and there to schedule the consult call and the rest is history. But she was my very first investment ever that I made into, well, one myself, but then also, um, into a program. So she was my first life coach. Her name is Jenny, coach Jenny, and I still remember myself at that time, right? This. This young scared little girl about to make this decision. I didn't know if it would work. I didn't know if it would be worth it. I also thought it was a scam because. You know, how could this be true? How could this actually help me? But deep down, I knew there was an excitement. I knew something needed to change, and so I made the decision and it changed everything. Not because she handed me a business plan or the strategy or anything like that. I actually just hired her as a life coach, meaning. She invited me to take a deeper look into myself and explore different versions of myself. I was going through a huge identity crisis when I was working for her, and so that is the reason why I wanted to bring Jenny onto the podcast because you get to hear firsthand. What I was like, but also what this kind of work actually looks like, because I can say it all day, right? Uh, I can explain all day my experience, and I know so many of you are in the same exact place right now where you feel stuck or you feel lost, or you feel confused, or you know what you want, but you don't have the confidence yet. In terms of actually taking action and doing it, you're thinking about investing in yourself. You're thinking about starting something on your own. You're thinking about stepping outside of the box that you're in and becoming more, but you're on the fence or you have that damn inner critic in your head telling you, you can't do it. You're not enough. How would this ever work? What if you fail? And here's what I know now, looking back, it's never, ever, ever about the strategy. 80% of it is mindset. It's about who you actually have to become to even hold the identity of a coach or. An online service provider, whatever you're building and whatever you're creating, and that only happens when you finally decide to go all in on yourself. And this topic really matters to me, especially this week, this month, because I'm launching CEO, I'm bringing it back, and that's exactly why I created CEO. It's not just about information. We have AI these days. I get that. That's not lost on me, but I know. You need support, you need proximity, and you need someone in your corner to see something in you before you actually see it in yourself. I always tell this to my clients that I will believe in you before you believe in yourself, and that's exactly what Jenny was for me. So. This episode is really, really special. She's also fucking hilarious, so you guys will love her sense of humor, but also the way she articulates and explains these topics that sometimes are really hard to grasp or just feels really heavy and daunting. She adds fun and play and charisma and joke. In a really lighthearted way, and it makes it so refreshing, it makes it so fun. So you're getting a full behind the scenes look at where it all started and the kind of support that I needed and that I give you now that actually changes everything. So let's get into it. Hey, my name is Kati Lillian, and I am obsessed with all things mindset, personal development, and helping you build the best version of yourself. I'm a women's life and mindset coach and an entrepreneur who started a fun hobby of posting hashtag sweaty selfies, grew a successful side hustle, and now I run a six figure coaching business. I teach you the secret of building a life that aligns with your deepest values and one that you wake up excited for. This podcast is designed to expand your mind and. Challenge the status quo. So get ready to uplevel your life and let's start building her.

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Jenny, coach Jenny, you are on the building. Her podcast if you guys are watching on YouTube. I'm just, I'm, I'm just like, I don't know how to put it into words because I worked with you six years ago. You were my first ever coach in my coaching personal development journey. Like you, Jenny, were number one. And now you're here on the podcast and I'm freaking out a little bit inside. It's this nervous energy, but like, excited energy. So, um, where do we start? We were just laughing before I hit record because you're so funny. Um, gonna be fun. Mm-hmm. Okay, so. 2019, I started working with you. Uh, we had our consultation call. I actually just re-watched it because you're so gracious to have sent me the link six years ago for my viewing pleasure. And it's just so wild, um, to hear what was going on with me, what, what were the issues, but two, even what I sounded like, my voice, my tone, my pitch, my nervous giggle, which still comes out sometimes. And to see myself now and where I am, I know we just reflected a little bit. It's just insane. And I'm so happy that I have. That journey to speak about and to share with the masses here on the podcast, because I think a lot of people still don't really know what coaching is all about. Even though it's a saturated market and there's so many coaches out there now, people are still like, what the fuck is a coach? They still think it's therapy, so. I would love to hear a little bit more about you and your coaching journey in terms of you being the client. How did you get into coaching? How did you start your personal development journey? What was your A to B transformation? Great questions. I'm so excited to be on this pod. It's gonna be so much fun. Um, so I actually am about to celebrate 20 years in my business this September, which I haven't aged today, but yes, that's like happening. I'm very freaked out about that. Um, so I started my business in 20, in 2006, which is mind bending and I. Started my business because in graduate school I studied organizational development and I zeroed in on this concept of coaching. But when I was starting out in my late twenties, you know, I thought what you're supposed to do is go and have a full career and then retire from said career and then become a coach, because that's kind of all I saw. My degree was in org development. My first, uh, experiences were in the federal government. I, I was working as a consultant for the federal government, but still, coaching was something the old people did, and it was all about helping old people. You know, it was helping mucky, muck, get mucker. That's really what I thought coaching was, and yet I realized right at the tender age of 30, please don't do the math. People at the tender age of 30 that. I felt this feeling that all of my friends were experiencing of, I don't know what I want, but I know it ain't this. Like I went to too many great lengths to do all of this education and all of this like hustling in my twenties to get to 30 and feel like, wait, I got another, what? How many years of this? How many decades of this do I have? I don't want this. What do I actually want? Try to figure that out. And it was helping and having conversations with my friends about that and polishing off some of those coaching skills that I had picked up. So I thought, what if I hang out a shingle? What if I give it a go and just start a business like that? And that's really where it started, which was like, I don't know what I wanna be when I grow up. And as any coach in this business, what I wanted to talk about evolved, you know, after I'd had five or six years of talking about that, I had some. Business chops with my own, under my belt, and I felt like I could evolve. And the business has evolved. I don't even know how many times, uh, because it, it seems slow and yet stark and all of the things. But yeah, the business has evolved over time and slowly but surely to the iteration that we have now. Oh my gosh, you, everything that you said, it reminded me of what I thought of at 32 because I was still in my tech career. Yeah. And I was like, is this really what I worked so hard for? Because at my tech company, and I was very blessed, they took care of me. But it was, you know, promotions and raises and I got to move from LA to Chicago to open an office for them. And so on paper it looks like, wow, you've got it. Yep. Right. Uh, all the boxes are checked, but then inside I felt so lost and confused and empty. And kind of what you just said, like, I have to do this for how many decades? Exactly. Nothing about that roadmap excited me. For me, it was really hard, as you know, with my identity and shifting into potentially working for myself and let alone coaching.'cause to your point was for old people, but where did you find the courage, the audacity, to finally be like, you know what? I'm just gonna start a business. Like, let's just find out. Well, I started, honestly, I started by saying, okay, everybody out there, all the gurus out there that I was looking at at the time said that if I just, you know, start a little email newsletter and poke a little bit on Twitter, mm-hmm. I would be rich in a week. You know, um, that's not really how that went down. Uh, but you know, all you need to do is follow these 17 steps of my perfect strategy and by. February, poof. You know, 10,000 subscribers and all of those things. So the first thing I did is what every entrepreneur I've ever met has done is I became a student of entrepreneurship, right? Buying all of the info crack, all of the courses, all of the programs, signing up for every mastermind I could afford or maybe not afford. And just being part of all of those different things, just devouring all that information, which was exhausting and conflicting and impossible to actually. See through and so quickly you start realizing that's not going to work and you have to kind of find your own way and find your own voice. So finding the audacity to say, I have something very particular to say and I can help a very particular person with a very particular problem. Took some trial and error. I mean, I got my first clients, this sounds so scandalous, but I got my first clients on Craigslist. Okay. Because this was before Facebook, and so I'm so old. My gosh. But you know what I mean? Like those first clients, they were on listservs and whatnot, and I just, I hit the ground and I'm, I made, uh, invitations to get on the phone with me and start having those conversations. And I got better and better and better at that work as I, as I did those calls, but also as I started coaching people. Um, but honestly it was the audacity of my first early clients who were like, you know what? I feel like. I can talk to you, I feel like you care about me, but you're not like part of my life. Mm-hmm. So since you're not part of my life, you don't have a stake in what happens next. So you can be a little more objective than any of my friends and family can. So I feel like this is the place where I can really dig in and start figuring out what I want next. Yeah. And honestly, the at at its core, that's the main thing that I still do today. Yeah. No, I love that and I love that you go back to the basics no matter how evolved your business has become. Oh yeah. Learning the basics of sales essentially, and putting yourself out there and being seen and making the invitations, that's never, um, you never outgrow that. Like those are the fundamentals of business Absolutely. That you need to have. Yeah, absolutely. I think it's really important, Meredith, and I always say, and I'll explain Meredith is my wife and business partner, uh, Meredith and I are always saying we want people when they experience some of our marketing or see like meet us at a speaking gig or something, we want them to either feel one of two ways. We want them feel like, not my vibe, no thank you, I'm outta here. Or how are these bitches reading my mind? Right? And nothing in between, like we're really hitting it. Right. If you feel like, oh my gosh, you're speaking. Mm-hmm. Exactly. To me, and people are raising their hands going, oh my gosh, how did you see my diary? Yeah, I, that's exactly how I felt because when I read it was the article mm-hmm. In the Penny Hoarder, I always forget the name. The Penny Hoarder. Yeah. And, um, you had a q and a, you sent me the questions and answers, but there was more there. It was just. I don't know. Every word was just resonating with me at the time. I was 28, and I remember I was like, this girl gets me. This bitch is reading my mind. Exactly. That's exactly. Oh, well, and I think that's really important. When you are looking for a coaching client, you need to be able to speak to that very specifically. I know a lot of people talk about the target market in terms of. Demographics or, you know mm-hmm. What, what kind of shoes do they wear and all that kind of crap. I don't think that's what it is. I really think it's, are you saying the things that are on their mind, and are you maybe even putting vocabulary that they don't have yet to some things that they're struggling with? Uh, which is something that I like to add a lot of fun and flavor to our vocabulary, so we have this fun shared vocabulary to talk about Pretty serious things. Yeah. No, and, and it's such a talent. I'm actually. Perfecting my craft at the messaging piece because my, the way I learned was more sales. So get them on the phone and, and know what to say and ask the questions and know how to offer. And the more I did that, the more comfortable I became. But in terms of messaging and online marketing and, you know, having someone read a landing page or a caption. I'm still fine tuning my process there because to your point, you have to get very, very specific. You have to understand who your client even is, and that should be specific in terms of an age range or uh, is it an early coach, is it an established coach? Like who is it right? Is that something that you worked with mentors on or was that something that you've just perfected on your own through the years? How? Oh, certainly not. I've definitely had to dig in and find humans who are better at this than me. Okay. Um, the number one person to give a shout out to is a woman named Wendy White. So Wendy White is a colleague of mine who. She was my coach and then a colleague, and now she's one of my dearest biz besties. And Wendy is all about helping. She's a messaging strategist. She's all about helping you nail down your messaging so that it sings and sells. And that was the distinction. I was putting out messages that were like, I'm really cool. You should hang out with me. I'm fun. And if you like my vibe, we will get along. That is not the right first impression. Yeah. It's an important second or third impression maybe, but people don't click on. They don't click to book a call with you, which is very vulnerable. It's a big ask. Mm-hmm. To book a call with you based on, I kind of like your vibe. They wanna know that you have a message and that what you help people do actually matters to them. That's how their curtains are on fire right now. They need that. That feels really important. It doesn't have to be pain. And that was one of the things I've learned from Wendy and from other amazing mentors of mine. Mm-hmm. It doesn't always have to be painted. It could also just be this is what I want. Mm-hmm. But it just feels out of reach and I would like to get there faster. Yeah. No, I love that. And I actually recognize that name from when we worked together. You mentioned Oh yeah. I've been working with Wendy for. Oh my gosh, so long since I think 2017. She's amazing. Got it. Okay. Highly, wendy white.com. Highly recommend. Yeah. Amazing. Um, when you going back to, uh, the scandalous times of Craigslist. To use your word, um, is that something that you had just thought of and put yourself out there, kind of like throwing spaghetti at the wall to see what stuck? Or had you already hired a coach or a mentor at that time, who advised you to do that? Did you self-start and then hire, or did you hire and just take their advice? Great questions. Before I started coaching, I actually worked with a coach, but for a very distinct 90 day period, and within three or four calls I was like, I wanna do what you do for a living. How do I make this a thing? But I had actually hired her for just general personal development as a, you know, hungry 20 something who wanted to do cool things. Uh, but I very quickly was like. I could be having these conversations, I could add humor, I could make this fun. I think this would be really amazing. And so our coaching conversation quickly shifted into more of a mentor mentee kind of situation for the rest of that coaching, uh, period. But then that ended and I kept going at my career. And then when I got into business was like, no, I need to go out and start finding some different coaches. So I've worked with several over the years, um, coaches, but as well as strategists and, and, um. All kinds of different mentors. Not always using the Word Coach as the title, as part of their title. There's been a lot of different really cool people that have helped me along the way. I love that. Very, very cool. Yeah. I always get pissed off when people say I'm self-made. I'm like, mm. Are you self made? No. No. I mean, I, it's not that I'm not taking credit for the actions that I'm taking, but they are a lot faster and clearer if I'm actually working with somebody who sees the vision I'm trying to get to, but also knows a little bit more than I do. I think a really important thing is to know what you don't know. Mm-hmm. Or have some kind of respect for the fact that there's a whole shitload of stuff. You don't know that you don't know. Um, and also trying to stay up to speed on how quickly the market changed. The tech has changed, the social media landscape has changed. Email marketing has changed. Um, all of those things are changing all the time. I'm not one of those doom and gloom people of like, this is dead and that is dead, and that strategy is dead. I don't think any strategy is dead. It all works. But like, what is the right strategy for us getting in front of the people that we wanna work with? Right. That's a moving target. Mm-hmm. And so we're always making sure that we're working with the best people. Yeah. Yeah. I'm really happy you touched on that because what I have found out now, for me, I love, I think I mentioned it before, my bread and butter is one-on-one coaching. Yeah. But, but even to get the one-on-one clients, like, I love the process of having conversations and. Inviting them onto a call and having a 60 to 90 minute conversation where most likely tears are going to happen, and then inviting them to work with me for six months minimum. Like that process I've really fallen in love with. Um, but I don't love the, the messaging piece yet, which sounds like that's your expertise, you know? And so maybe for you, it really works. To put out a landing page and put out some kind of campaign, and it works because your messaging is on point. Versus me, I have maybe a call, but you know, we, it's different. Gonna have to find what our sweet spot is. It's totally different because most of the programs that we're inviting people to are group experiences. Ah, um, many of them are virtual live experiences, meaning a whole bunch of people are gonna join us on April 17th that we're doing this thing. And so I'm inviting a lot of different people to an experience. Yeah. And so. The messaging is much, much more important. Whereas when I was doing one-on-one coaching, I often filled that pipeline of people who I was going to have private coaching, um, discovery calls or whatever we're calling them. Yeah. Um, those all came out of networking and just being really visible. So it, it, yeah, it's quite different. Yeah. In terms of like, what is the end game and how do I get people totally into that world? Such sound advice for, um, uh, a woman who is working a nine to five or you know, is an earlier aspiring coach in today's landscape in today's world. What would you recommend for her to do in terms of like a first step into the coaching world? Awesome. Oh yeah. I, I've got, I've got some things coming like. More than a first step. I don't know if they're in sequent in sequence, but the first thing I would say to you is to adapt, adopt this mantra that there ain't no shame in financial oxygen. There ain't no shame in financial oxygen. There is something in the coaching industry that I hope just dies, but it's also throughout all entrepreneurship where we shame people for not going all in and leaving their day job and, and being in this financially precarious position because they're not fully committed to their business and living on their. Brother's sofa or whatever the heck it is. Do you know what I mean? Like why it has to be so dire and ridiculous. I don't know. So the first thing I would say is make sure you have enough financial oxygen to get your business to a place that you feel like, okay, now I can shift down to maybe part-time and maybe go full-time if you. Want to have a full-time coaching career, but also there's no shame in not wanting a full-time coaching career. I know a lot of amazing coaches who have really cool careers and do work with two or three clients because that's what they want their lifestyle to be. So the first thing I would say is get comfortable with what you want your lifestyle to be, not what the gurus are telling you you have to do. Mm-hmm. So I know, I don't know if that's a step, but. I think it's an important mindset, uh, that I, I would like to spread quite a bit. Um, but then the other step is to just get really clear about what's your problem, which sounds awful, but like, what's your problem? What's the problem that you wanna solve for your next set of clients? Not for now until forever. Like I said, you get to evolve as much as you want. But for the next three to four clients, what do you wanna help them with? Do you wanna help them get out of their own way? Do you want them to understand their inner critic? Do you want to help them, uh, get further faster? Those are some of the phrases and meth and messaging we've used over the years of like, this is what they. They really want next. Mm-hmm. And so make sure your messaging is inviting people who are saying, I'm actively looking to sort that out. Yes, that's exactly, again, you are reading my mind. I am here for you. Yeah. I, I love that you brought up financial oxygen that home for me. Um, I think that was the biggest thing that you have helped me with. I mean, there were so many things that you did during our time together, but I remember, like even when I talk about you and I talk about my experience with coaching and who I hired as my first coach, it always comes down to the financial oxygen mindset shift because. If you recall, I was going through an identity crisis when I hired you because I was this tech girl and then I was like, no, but I wanna be a coach and follow Uncle Tony's path. Yes. And I was having such a hard time with that. And you're like, your job is just financial oxygen. Like collect the check and then build your dream business on the side. Like what's the matter with that? And that was just such a light bulb moment for me, and I think hearing it. The way you shared it and probably added some humor sprinkled into it. It, it just, it gave me permission to continue working, but then also almost like hustle even harder because I thought it was, um, I thought it was possible and right. It was okay to do this. So I, I think you've always mentioned like a permission slip. That's what you gave me. Yeah. It's a bit of a pernicious of, to recognize that having a day job or a job job as I like to call it, having a job, job that pays the bill, that pays the bills is funding your ability to chase your dream. Yeah. Versus having it is a. Showcasing that you're not serious about your business, right? That's the narrative that I think a lot of people got into their head early on. A lot of early stage entrepreneurs still struggle with of like, well, I'm not, I'm not all in. I haven't risked everything I call BS on that. I think if you're holding down a financial oxygen job and you just shift your ambition from. The financial oxygen world to your business. That's the, that's the identity shift to take. And I know for you it was challenging to let go of Yeah. But I have to do the greatest job ever at work of like, no, I have to not get fired. Right? Yes. Like, let's be honest, I need to do a good enough job that I do not get fired. I do not get in trouble. It's not stressing me out. But that I have something left in the tank when I come home and on the weekends to pour into my business. That's how you shift it to financial oxygen and then make sure that it stays, that and doesn't become golden handcuffs, because that's a simple lie. Mm-hmm. So, I don't know. If we talked towards the tail end of my tech career, because I did end up leaving and going all in on coaching, but it wasn't until I replaced my income to then finally have the evidence and the proof of like, holy shit, this is possible. Let's go now all in on coaching. Um, but I remember the tail end of my years, so I had told my, um, CEO. We have a great relationship. He's really into personal development. He's the one who took us to the, Tony Robbins unleashed the power within Seminar. So he like always understood personal development and that I was super passionate about it, but he had no idea that I was actually trying to build a side hustle and make some money from this thing. And, um. I don't know. At a certain point I finally got the courage to tell him, Hey, this is not it. I wanna do this. And I've already started and I was so afraid, of course of that conversation because I was like, okay, worst case I get fired on the spot. Best case he supports me. And he supported me and he actually allowed me to go part-time in the business for a full year to get more time to build my, my side hustle. What happened though, and this is really interesting, and I, and I wonder if you've experienced this too, or maybe with clients. Um, it was more so the culture of the company changed towards me because they, they already now knew and categorize me as katya's one foot out the door. Let's not give her this responsibility. Let's not. Send her to this event, let kind of just, yeah, bare minimum to collect a check, which is what I wanted. But then the feeling behind it was like, Ooh, okay, I'm kind of getting ousted over here. And um, I feel like I was just kind of hanging on by a string and I felt some. You know, judgment and, and stuff like that from my coworkers, rightfully so. I'm, you know, CEO is supporting my dream over here that probably didn't feel very good for them. So anyways, it, it kind of got weird towards the end. And then of course, the universe, I believe in the power of the universe and timing where I was like, okay, like, now's the time. Have you experienced that or have you known other people? And, and what do you think that is? Just a sign of like. Get out. No, it's not necessarily a sign. It's a, it's a opportunity to be empathetic because if you can be empathetic about the fact that from their perspective you do have one foot out the door, you have a different dream. This is something that you want. So it makes sense that we're not going to give you the best clients or the best, uh, perks or the first dibs on the best project or whatever the things are right. It makes sense on their end to continue to grow and pour into the people who are committed to having a career there. So when you decide that you're shifting your job job to financial oxygen, you have to be okay with no longer, like I said, no longer putting all of your ambition there, but also not all of your ego. Like this is a, this is a gift that they're taking that pressure off of your lap. If you find a financial oxygen gig like that, that is wonderful. That's juicy because now you can, like I said, you can put all of your creative energy into learning how to sell. You can put all of your creative energy into like learning how to manage Canva.'cause I don't know how to manage Canva. I open that thing up, three hours of my life are gone. You know what I mean? Like, whatever it is you, you get to shift all of that energy over there. I'm not saying it's without loss, though. I recognize that as somebody, most people that I've worked with, including yourself, are superstars at what they do, and we're so used to being, uh. The recovering valedictorian, if you will, right? Like we're the, we're the people that are like top of their game in everything we do. Everything we do shines like at the top of the Chrysler building. And we're used to being seen that way at every professional opportunity. And so when you decided to, to shift gears and go down to part-time and all of that, it makes sense that your boss would treat you differently and the team would feel maybe even a little resentment around it, but. Managing those, managing that from a place of empathy, I think is really key. Mm-hmm. The other thing is, I personally think it makes it just uncomfortable enough that that is never gonna become golden handcuffs. You're getting the hell out of there. Yeah. And I think that's a good thing. Yeah. Yeah. No really good point. I'm actually thinking of, um, a few past clients in a current client right now where they are at the nine to five job. Job. Mm-hmm. I'm gonna steal that phrase and, um. Well paid and super ambitious and the shining star on the team, but again, very similar to my path. They don't love it. They don't feel aligned or excited about it and know that they're one foot in, one foot out. Um, but yeah, the feeling of not being essentially good anymore at this job because you're putting more of your energy and your ambition into hundred percent coaching. Yeah. You're. New job. Um, what would you say? With the future?'cause you mentioned a little bit before you're like, I'm not the doom and gloom type person, or, you know what I mean? Like Yeah. Oh my gosh. The future in ai and I don't even wanna talk about AI anymore, but here it is. What would you say or recommend to the, the lady, the woman that wants to start now, but she's thinking of AI or, you know, will coaches be around in five years? What, what would you say to that argument Perspective? I, I, I mean, this obviously just my opinion, but there's no better time than right now. Right. Like the only time that's better than right now is yesterday. Like that, that's it. Like the idea that, um, the world is changing so they're not gonna need coaches anymore is absurd. Like, think about how heavy the world is right now. Like what we desperately need right now is some support. And so if you can support people in whatever specific way that you do, uh, it's more necessary than ever. I understand it's also more saturated than ever, but here's the good news. How many humans do you need to help in order to have a thriving six figure beautiful business? Count the number of humans, and if the number of humans are a little bit, a little bit high, raise your prices. You're charging too little. Okay? And now that you've done that math and you think about the billions of people on the planet. You are gonna have a quick dose of reality here. It it's not, I'm not saying it's easy, but the idea that, oh my God, it's so saturated. There's so many coaches. Why even bother one, get a coach to work through that because that's something we've gotta talk about. But two, just do the freaking math. If you do the freaking math of how many hours do I wanna spend talking to How many humans and how many dollars do we want to charge them? Above what I call the bar of resentment, so you're not resenting that person that they're paying you so little. You do that math very quickly. Maybe a dozen, a few dozen. Depending on your business, it's not that many humans, but that those are the humans you're gonna be able to help. And when if you have a passion for doing that, uh, please don't be concerned that people are going to turn to ai. Now, here's the thing. I know that there are people that think that chat, GPT is their coach. They've named him, like some of them call him Kevin. One of my clients calls him Kevin. She doesn't actually use Kevin as coaching, but I've stuck with the name. It's so good. So like Kevin can coach you all day. He's always gonna tell you your hair looks pretty. Like seriously. Go to chat GPT right now and say, what do you think of my hair? He will tell you, you look great in whatever way you talk. So if you say fabulous, he's gonna say, you look fabulous. Um. Sure there are gonna people that do that. There are gonna be people who read blogs and watch YouTube videos instead of hiring coaches too. But there always have been. There always have been. That's not who you're trying to reach. You're trying to reach somebody who's actually looking for individualized support. Ugh. I just love you so much. I love you too. The feeling is so mutual. The, the way you articulate it and make it so simple, like stupid simple, like anyone listening to this right now, they're like, yeah, fuck it. Count the humans and go, that's a six. It's math right there. It's math. Yeah, and, and it's basic math I can even handle, so like, we're not even talking complicated, like. Geometry or something. No, no. It, it's so true. And, and I'm the perfect example of that because I signed my first client in 2020. October, 2020 is when someone said, yes, Katya, I will work with you. And the floodgates opened in my mind of like, oh my gosh, I could actually do this thing. And it hasn't been that many humans in a one-on-one capacity. Since then, I've done group programs, uh mm-hmm. But in one-on-one. I've worked with people now for years, and I always start them at a six month program, so they choose to renew every six months. And so it's like, oh, now also being postpartum. I was like, how is this business going to operate? Because my time is less than and I don't have as much now, you know? But the same strategy, the same clients, like they've stayed with me over Oh yeah. Years, and I'm like. Oh my gosh. This is a business model that can sustain anything. Of course. And why would they wanna break in a new one? Like, I have a couple clients that have worked with me for so long and I made the mistake. Please don't make this mistake. Don't grandmother anybody in. Okay. I made the mistake of grandmothering people in. They got some cheap prices. Okay. But I, it's still above the bar resentment. If somebody calls me and they're like, we've been working together for so long that. We have a shorthand, like I don't wanna start from scratch and, and I can talk to this coach and she's gonna remind me of the job I had and back in 2012. You know, like I have the receipts, I know all of the things. Like it makes a lot of sense. It absolutely is a business model that you can work with people for a very long time. Now that's controversial. In the coaching community, because I don't know if you know Katya, but like the coaches, the coaching community, um, they're snobby little butch, right? They've got a lot of rules. They, they feel like, some people feel like, well, if you're still working with someone beyond six months, you haven't helped them. I call BS on that. I think that's if you're helping them with a very short term specific thing and that it's finite and then love you mean it by, if that's your jam, have at it. But I like working with people for the long term. Like I was bringing up, Wendy. I love working with people for so long that they not only know where I'm trying to go, but they know all the places I've been and what we could like rinse and repeat. And I think it's really valuable to have those longer relationships, just like your long-term friends. It it, it, it's different. Yeah, I, I completely agree because um, with my clients, I've noticed, yes, they come to me for a very specific problem at the beginning, right? And then you work through that and then you discover, oh, there's something else. Or actually it wasn't, that, there was something deeper and an underlying fear and, you know, they didn't even know that. Um,'cause people are on their best behavior too, and I think they have a filter on, on the consultation call. It's like three months in now I'm finally getting to, to learn. Well, sure. They're sizing you up and deciding how purple and also discovering things about themselves. Yes. That they have looked at before. Of course. Yes. And I think I got it from you, correct me if I'm wrong. The phrase, new level new devil. Yes. Was that from you? Well, I can't, I, I, I stole it from somewhere. I don't know where, but yes, that's the idea. New level, new devil. As soon we'll say it's from Coach Jenny. As soon as you get to a new place, we do something I call Puddle Jump. Have I told you about puddle jumping? Okay, so Pu Yes. I think it's in your Hilda book, right? It is. So puddle jumping is whenever you're about to do something that really matters to you, like. I don't know, start a coaching business. It feels like you're crossing the ocean. You can't even see the other side. It's filled with dangers and unknowns, and it's. It's scary, right? Like I can't even imagine. But then when you actually are able to do it, we trivialize the ocean. We just crossed, like we just jumped over a little puddle like, oh look, it's no, no big thing. Just little puddle jumping. We have this tendency to do that. So when it comes to things that we have done, we've persevered, that we've made happen, that we've decided we puddle jump that whole experience and we don't see the enormity of it, which means we don't actually experience the confidence, we've just. Earned. And so like we're on a mission to make sure that people recognize it. And puddle jumping is a silly term for, for that. But when you cross an ocean, the new level, new devil thing truly starts happening. It's like this shit just got real. Oh my God, I have a coaching business. I just left my job. I have to get more clients now. Like, okay, yeah, I had money in March, but now it's April. Like what do we do? You know? It's all of that. That new level, new devil means. New versions of your inner critic are gonna come at you. Maybe you've conquered your perfectionism. So here comes second guessing. Or maybe I was sorting out some second guessing. So here comes some self-doubt and like it's just, it's very natural. And one of the things that. Bothers me about our industry is this idea that we're supposed to like just silence all that noise. And I don't think it's a weakness. I think it's proof that you're doing something that matters. The fact that you're inner critic, I call her Hilda. Hilda doesn't bother if it doesn't matter. She's showing up and making noise because you're doing something that's important to you. You're looking at the next ocean and you're recognizing that you're ready for it. Oh my gosh. Again, well said. Well, thank you for coming to my Ted talk. Oh my gosh. I, I just love the way you explain it. It makes it so, so clear. But yes, exactly. Puddle jumping, new level, new devil. And that's why I work with people for years because there's yeah, new levels there. There's new parts of themselves that they haven't met yet. And like you just said, okay, maybe I've dealt with perfectionism a little, a little bit, and now self-doubt is here. Right? So there's all exactly. New parts of you that you have to meet and work through. Um. How has your Hilda evolved over the years?'cause like you just said, she, it's like she doesn't go away. Or the car analogy, like I'm the driver. Mm-hmm. So I'm still like telling Hilda where to go, but I'm driving. But she's in the passenger seat, like she's the passenger princess and she's loud and right. She's obnoxious. Yeah. Like she's still there for the journey for the ride. But I'm in the driver's seat. So how have. You developed essentially a relationship with Hilda. How do you deal with her when she starts to speak up a little too loud? Really great questions. I mean, my relationship with Hilda is less fraught than it used to be. I used to feel like when I had inner critic or I. Feeling imposter syndrome or self-doubt or whatever that it meant there was something wrong with me. And I think that's what a lot of people think is that there's something wrong with me. That I'm having these feelings. There's some, it's, it's exposing a weakness. But now that I really have studied this for so many years and, and dug in, I've realized no, it actually, like I said, it means that I'm onto something. So if I can shorten the amount of time that I get into the, like, sad feeling of what's wrong with me and recognize, oh wait, Hilda's here. This is good news. That changes the relationship. It doesn't make my interactions with my inner critic any less, any more fun. It's still a pain in the ass. Um, by the way, Hilda, if anybody's name is Hilda, I'm sorry, you can call yours Jenny. I, I feel bad, but, um. When Hilda is piping up, it, it is a sign that I'm moving forward in the right direction. It means that I'm scared. It's just, it's just fear. When you feel fear, it means something's gonna be great. So it's a, it's kind of like a rollercoaster ride, getting on the rollercoaster ride with Hilda. And to some degree, your experience on a rollercoaster completely depends on the decision you make when it starts. Am I going to have fun or I'm going to puke? You know what I mean? Like, where are we going with this? I really believe it's a decision that we get to make. And so deciding, okay, Hilda's here. What is she trying to tell me? What is she trying to scare me off of? What is she worried about? The other thing about my relationship with Hilda that has changed is she's getting trickier. She gets trickier. So I thought that Hilda was just a mini meany liar. You know, like always said, all kinds of lies, but sometimes she says the absolute truth and that's where you have to really like watch her. So it doesn't work for me anymore to be like, oh, you're gonna crash and burn'cause that's not really true. But you know, if she can remind me of that time that you tried this before and it didn't work, remember that okay, that actually happened. Remember how disappointing that was? Yes. I remember how disappointing that was. Okay. Now that I'm sitting in that disappointment, I can either say, okay, that's a good point. I shouldn't even try. Or how can I not let disappointment derail me again? How can I experience disappointment and, and risk more disappointment and put myself out there again? How can I get creative, creative about solving this problem and trying a different way? How can I get more experimental? So I have gotten faster at cutting her off and seeing, okay, where is the problem solving? I can do. Ugh, I love it so much. Mine is, uh, my inner critic's name is Regina. Sorry for any Regina's listening. Hi, Regina. Love it. But, um, from Mean Girls, the, the, yeah. The actress was Regina and, uh, yeah, Rachel McAdams. Uh, yes. Rachel MCs. Yes. I love that. And that name just came up for me. I was like, oh. Regina. Okay. We're gonna stick with it. But, um, what you just said about there, there's so, so many nuggets of wisdom anytime you speak. So I'm trying to get back to what you just said. Nuggets of wisdom. Got it. Yeah. Basically meeting Hilda or Regina and. Embracing the message. So surrendering to, okay, what's going on here? And be curious is the word that's coming up for me. Um, because to your point, so this month I'm launching my group program for early and aspiring coaches called Chi, EO. And anytime I launch,'cause I just told you my bread and butter is one-on-one, right? Anytime I launch a group program, it's very vulnerable for me. Because I'm just like, here we go. Here's my program, someone please. Is anyone out there? You know, that's like the feeling initially. Um, but it's not my first time. It's my third or fourth time now, and I remember the first time, I think seven, eight girls signed up and my mind was blown. But from that. But that was like my reference point then, right? Yeah. So then I was like, oh my gosh. Like I'll just do it again in the fall and seven or eight women will sign up again. And that didn't happen. And so it's what you just said, it's constant creativity, constant experimentation, refresh. Yeah. Make something new, new masterclass, new challenge. Like whatever you gotta do. To keep things fresh. Is that what you have experienced with your group programs now and the online coaching that you deal. Absolutely. And I think it's about recognizing a couple things. One, the word launch feels too heavy because you're not nasa. You don't have to launch, you can just open a, open something. You know, I have, I'm opening the doors or I'm, I'm rolling out a new. Uh, offer right? When you're putting an offer out there. So that's one thing is for me, sometimes I get stuck on the words. I get stuck on the concepts, and launch is probably the heaviest word in entrepreneurship next to maybe Facebook ads, right? Like it's a heavy, heavy words. It means like this big I. Public success or failure, and it's just not so people are gonna join or not. The other thing is that I remind myself that there's nothing, there's absolutely nothing on my to-do list this week that's gonna make or break my business. There's nothing on your to-do list next week that's gonna make or break your business. It's going to make or break your week, but not make or break your business. And so when you, when you look at it that way, it doesn't have that same level of. Pressure. Mm-hmm. And I think that sometimes we're accidentally, and I think Hilda's part of it, inventing pressure, inventing stakes, raising the stakes on what this needs to be, has to be this launch. You know, like it's, it just sounds really heavy and, and ridiculous. Because we're in this online entrepreneurial soup where everybody's talking like that and you start getting guru by all of these people, even people you've never hired. You're getting guru by all of these people of like what a launch is supposed to look like and what success is supposed to look like. And if you can peel all of that stuff back and ask yourself, okay, what does success look like for me? Well, I get to help seven more people in CEO. That's, that's the ideal. If four people sign up, I'm gonna give them a great experience and then figure out the puzzle of how we get seven next time. Instead of like, oh, I'm obviously a failure. Those four people are gonna get the obvious failure energy. Like that doesn't make any sense at all. So I don't know if that speaks to you at all, Katya, but like I am all about like, how do we peel off some of the Yeah. Manufactured pressure mm-hmm. That is not serving where we're trying to go. Yeah. I, I mean, just the distinction already from launch to open. The minute you said I'm opening the door or I'm opening the zoom, opening the zoom room. That's what we're doing. I mean, it felt so much better. It felt just fun and exciting. What a crazy thing is like just one word, you know. Well, and that's, you'll notice in this whole conversation you're noticing I use language very, very strategically. I think vocabulary matters. And my vocabulary is not what you have to pick up, but discerning your own vocabulary. Like really saying, okay, these are the words that work for me. And then having that shorthand of like, I'm not gonna puddle jump this. I'm gonna make sure I price myself above the bar resentment and I'm not launching'em opening. Like all of that just made sense to you if you were listening. Right? And so now we have this very playful way about talking about something that really matters to you, which is your business. Yeah. And so having those playful terms that mean a lot and say a lot. Few words, I think really gives us a shorthand to get further faster. Yeah, I love that so much. And also to your point, when you mentioned nothing that you do or don't do this week will make or break your business. Yes. Right. Maybe you're weak but not your business. Yeah. The way I view that is almost like the stock market, right? Like it's up and down and up and down. Great point. But like overall, you zoom out. Hopefully there's this trajectory that is going up, but there's like, it's made up of highs and lows, and that's kind of how I view my, the totality of my business now. A hundred percent. Yeah. I wanted to ask you now, what are you doing in business and what are you launching and how could people work with you and get in your, your energy and your spaces? Yeah. Oh my gosh. That's a big ask question, but I'm so happy to answer it. So as you can see, we live in our Airstream. Uh, we are full timing and digital nomad all over North America. It's spectacular. And so what's very much next for us, uh, is this week we are heading east, going back east. We've been on the west coast for a couple of years and we're going back to the East coast where we're from. So we're excited about that. But then in terms of our business, we help with people with lots of different things. Best way to kind of get started in our world is one of these two. One is we have this session that we do every single Thursday called the Make It Happen Weekly. It is a$25 a month, uh, membership, but you can just come for a month and see if it's for you. But the whole idea is that in 60 Minutes, we're gonna plan your entire next week. We're gonna figure out what that next week looks like through a fun, deliberate, repeatable process that we've developed over time, and we've been running for well over three years. So if you feel like, you know what, I would like to do more of what actually matters to me and not be overwhelmed all of the time. I'd like to stop working from a list of things I want to do that's as long as a CVS receipt and instead of like actually know what I'm going to accomplish next week. And. Feel accomplished every week. That's what that is about. And then the other thing I would invite people to check out is one of our lock in two week sprints. So if there's something, some project you've been wanting to do, a launch, you've been wanting to build a new program, you wanna develop a YouTube channel that needs resurrected, whatever the thing is that has been on the later list, collecting cyber dust for. Ever, uh, lock-in is about having a two week sprint. It's a accountability container to get that thing done, whatever that thing is for you. And it's a lot of fun. And we charge a hundred dollars. And spoiler alert, if you complete your lock-in mission, you get the a hundred dollars back in credit to use towards anything else in our business. So there's a lovely little carrot in there. It's a lot of fun. So those are probably the two. Best ways to get some live interaction, low ticket experiences with me and my wife Meredith. Our business is Jenny and Meredith, so you can find us there. Oh my gosh. Amazing. I cracked up when you said the CVS receipt. We know it though, like every time you cross something off your to-do list, you write down six more things like that is not a way to live. I know what I do have to say, I've gotten really good now at prioritizing and becoming efficient in the time that I have because I'm a new mom. I bet, and I understand motherhood and the chapters, that's all going to change when she's in school and older and you know, can take care of herself. But right now I'm in the thick of it and I really have to work now during nap times and after bedtime. And so I have become so surgical with what I am working on and what I am not working on, and it has moved the needle in my business. So much faster than pre motherhood. That's wonderful. It's eyeopening. I think there's this phenomenon where we write down all of these things on a to-do list. That's really a wishlist. It's a wishlist of how I would do this. If I was a better person, it could move time to my will, you know, this is what I would actually accomplish. And then all we do is feel bad about how little we accomplish because we're looking at this crazy wishlist that's just not rooted in reality. So what we're teaching is about how do you, instead of. Participating in that, get hyper-realistic about what you're actually going to accomplish and prioritize, not based on how important or urgent it is or whatever Stephen Covey said in that book, but like, when are you actually gonna do it? Are you gonna do it this week? No. Okay. Next two-ish weeks? No. Sometime after that. That's all we need to know. Mm-hmm. And then just live your life one week at a time. We've been doing this for over three years with clients and it's shocking how much more productive we are for all the reasons you said, and you don't have to have a baby to do it. So, um, not that that's a bad thing, but that sounds hard. That just sounds so. I know it, it's crazy how much it's revealed to me about myself. So motherhood in the beginning, it was a journey and I had to heal on all levels. Mental, physical, emotional, spiritual, of course. Um, but wow, I, I truly am so much stronger on the other side here because it. Just revealed, um, where I wasn't strong yet in terms of my time management or maybe even vulnerabilities and insecurities about playing small in business. And yeah, it's crazy that I, you know, I. In my experience, I did have to have a baby in order to discover that. But not everyone needs to have a baby to, no, and it tease, but like it's join generous program. When you start in, when you start your own business, and especially when you go full-time in your own business, you've shifted from having a really busy life that externally has told you where you have to be and when to, having all the freedom in the world. And the internet should tell you all of the things you could be doing. I know everybody's like worried about shoulds. Shoulds are not the problems. It's the coulds. The coulds are insidious, right? Like it's all the things we could be doing, all the things we could be working, all the ways we could be marketing, all the ways we could be thinking about whatever that is, where. All of our productivity goes to die. And you being in your situation right now where I have to work in like nap times and bedtime, this is what I've got. You have to get really discerning about which coulds you're gonna pick up and which ones are just not this season. And so I'm here to tell you, you can just choose that and it's easier to do it every single week than to do it once. You know, it doesn't have to be this big project. It can be done in an hour. I love that you said it's not about your shoulds. It's actually about the coulds. I've never heard that before because everyone always says you're shoulding all over yourself, but it's the could. Yeah, and I agree that's a problem, but the coulds are the problem. Like I could make a living like washing dishes. I'm really good at it. I don't want to. Right. Like I know that's a silly example, but I also could spend more time trying to figure out the perfect AI tool that gets my vibe. Or I could. Just decide this, and it's all of the things that we could do that are true. They're true statements. Hilda likes to throw them at us too. Like if we're ambitious, like here's some more coulds. It's a problem because you only have so much time, so you can do absolutely anything you want. You just can't do everything. Mm-hmm. So what is it gonna be that you wanna prioritize for this season, for this time, for this year, for this month? Yeah, such a good point. And I'm so happy that you're doing this for clients and helping them through this. I think that is a really niche problem that you are helping, um, others with. And it's so true because it's in the landscape of, um, our digital age and social media use. See everything that everyone is doing. I think you made the joke earlier, like all these coaches and their advice, I didn't even hire them. Right, right. You you're, it's, it's, it's a bombardment and I, I mean, I try so hard not to click on the sponsor ads, but some of them are pretty, you know, like they just suck you in and there's so many new things and innovations happening all of the time. How do we make sure that we sequester that so we don't stay. Student of entrepreneurship, but we're actual entrepreneurs. We're actually making money and making impact. Yeah. Um, I think that takes the discipline and we, we've worked really hard to find ways to make that discipline fun and simple and doable and repeatable. Yeah. Amazing. Yeah, I love it. Um, thank you for letting me gush about it. It's my favorite thing. Yeah, absolutely. I can tell. And rightfully so. Um, can people still buy your Hilda book? They sure can. Uh, you can go to Amazon and get the, uh, the Kindle version or the paperback version, or you can go to Audible and I'll read it to you. I'm hysterical at three times speed. Let me tell you. Um, yeah, so if you look for Hilda and coach Jenny, you will find me. I think that would be a lot of fun to have you actually read it because of your sense of humor and it's really funny. So funny. There's a spoiler, there's a couple of mistakes in the book and I can always tell if people have read the book because they tell in the audio book. Okay. They will call and be like, oh, you said that again. And then I'll wait a like another couple weeks and I hear from them again. I'm like. There's two mistakes in the book. It's a book about the inner critic. I can't fix it because that tho those were actually there on purpose. Duh. Totally. Oh my gosh. Jenny, I love you. This has been such an amazing conversation. I could keep going. I know we're over the hour. I wanna. Respectful of your time. Maybe we do a part two, part three. Anytime, anytime. Just stay on the podcast. Um, this was amazing. Thank you for having me, kata. Oh, you're welcome. Sincerely, and congratulations for all of your success. I'm so, so happy for you. Thank you. Well, right back at you. Truly like just to see what you're doing now and who you're helping and what you're focusing on and that you haven't. Stopped, and you're here and it still lights you up and brings you so much joy. It's very, very cool to see. So I'm very, very proud of you as well. Um, where can everyone find you? What's, what's the easiest way to contact you if someone was interested? Yeah, head over to Jenny and meredith.com, but you'll type that somewhere. It's Jenny with an IE, Meredith with a y. It's a pain in the butt, you know. So go to Jenny and meredith.com. You can find us there. And then we're also on most of the socials at Jenny and Meredith. Okay, beautiful. Thank you so much. I'll leave all the information in the show notes below and let us know if you wanna part two to this. Thank you, Jenny, for being here. Thank you.