Unraveling Codependency: A Journey to Self-Discovery

In this conversation, Nate and Ashley delve into the intertwined topics of codependency and ego, exploring how these dynamics affect personal relationships and individual well-being. They define codependency, discuss its origins, and examine the complexities of emotional dependence on others. The conversation highlights the challenges faced by codependent individuals, including the struggle for self-identity and the journey towards spiritual awakening and self-discovery. They emphasize the importance of recognizing one's own needs and the transformative power of breaking free from codependent patterns.

Transcript

Nate (00:01.71)
Welcome everyone to Spiritual Unraveling with Ashley and Nate. This week we are going to start an ongoing conversation that we're gonna drop into periodically around codependency. And I'm gonna add in an extra element. We didn't talk about this before, but it's something Ashley has also wanted to talk about, which is unraveling the ego. And I think...

for Ashley and I, those two topics are intertwined in a very potent way, which is why we enjoy mining the topic of codependency, of people pleasing, of how those mental structures and responses got established and then

you know, what we do with ourselves as we're unpacking all of that. So I'm introducing the topic, but now I'm gonna hand it over to Ashley and just everyone, just so we can have a baseline of what we're talking about when we say codependency, because we hear this word a lot. It's thrown around on Instagram, on YouTube. There's a lot of stuff out there, but just so you guys have a sense of what we're actually talking

in terms of the term so that it can land a little bit better and it's not kind of pop culture or whatever is out there in the zeitgeist. Ash hit us with a little codependency. Yeah.

Ashley (01:47.242)
a little definition of codependency? Yeah, I find that it's getting clearer for people, but most people don't know what codependency means. I think it means if they feel needy or dependent on somebody. But codependency actually is when your well-being is dependent on the behaviors of somebody else.

the actions of somebody else, the emotional state of somebody else. So your wellbeing is dependent on what's happening around you. And it was first coined in the 70s, I think, making some of this up, in the 70s by someone who, by,

the recovery community was creating support for the people who were in relationship with alcoholics. codependency came about looking at what are the people in relationship with alcoholics dealing with and going through. So codependency on the surface sometimes can look at like somebody who's really pleasing and really supportive and really empathic and

always there for you, but underneath it's a little trickier. It usually has something to do with control, strategizing, managing, and that part is harder to see a lot of the time for people. And so I think that's when you're looking at the definition of codependency, you really want to see all of it.

because there's a really lovely part of people who are loving and supportive and attuned to other people. But when you bring in my wellbeing is dependent on how you feel at any given moment, it's gonna get really complicated really quickly. What did you think about that? Would you add anything?

Nate (04:02.597)
No, I think that's great. And I guess one of the things that comes up in your saying that is just like the funny thing about codependent people and I'm saying this as a recovering codependent or somebody who's working on it. We in relationship early on, we seem like magical people. We're great. We're like attuning, we're delivering goods. We're like, you know, we're like.

really, really great to be around, that when you were mentioning the other aspect of that, you know, there's a lot of pressure put on the people in the relationships with the codependent. There becomes an immense weight that is never spoken and not really acknowledged around when is this person, like what happens when they get upset?

what happens if the control tactics don't work. And I think that's where codependent, people with codependent behaviors can find themselves in relationships that are very challenging and people around them can be giving them feedback about them not being all that nice and that there's toxic dynamics and you know, the partner.

sometimes can't even put their finger on what the thing is because you as the codependent person have been so subtle and good about delivering things all the time, but at some point you just get exhausted and you can't do that and you've got this well of built up grievances that can kind of come out and then there becomes this real like backlash moments and I think that's the piece that gets really tricky. And the other thing that I thought about

because this subject is so big and because you and I were discussing it earlier is maybe talking a little bit about codependency in relationship to how we're perceived by others. Particularly, we had had a nice conversation about how we present and how we get confusing feedback and how people around us who just meet us have confusing feedback. So like this kind of...

Nate (06:26.019)
What is it like to meet a codependent for the first time? And for the codependent person, why is it so hard to meet healthy people and have good relational dynamics? Because that's an aspect of it that I think, you know, I think it's easy to talk about codependency in a very intimate, deeply bonded relationship. But I'm curious to just kind of have a sidebar on this kind of like the run of the mill dynamics. Like, what is it like?

Ashley (06:36.332)
Yeah.

Nate (06:55.353)
the grocery store when you meet people at a business meeting or whatever and like you default to some of these codependent dynamics and it immediately sets a tone or creates a dynamic between you and the other person.

Ashley (07:10.358)
Well, you just said a whole bunch of stuff. Well, there's two things you brought up that I'll catch. There's two things. One is what's happening in the person with codependency. What's happening in any given moment inside of that person. And then the other part that you were saying is...

Nate (07:15.426)
Yeah, I did, sorry.

Ashley (07:37.602)
who is the codependent drawn to? So part of the personality structure of somebody with codependency is that they need to be needed. And so they're looking for people who need them, you know? And most people are gonna sign up for that, not everybody, but most people are gonna sign up for that because it feels really good. It feels really good to have somebody

who's available for that level of caretaking for you. But what gets really confusing is when all of a sudden the person who seems to to have this deep well of caretaking all of a sudden has needs of their own or resentment or, you know, gets upset or isn't available. So there's a lot of presenting yourself

as unidimensional, you know, I'm just pleasing, I'm just here for you. And when that's not true, we're all multidimensional, we all have needs, we all are available sometimes and not others. And so the person with codependency is always, always looking for safety, safety in being needed, safety of

being pleasing, safety of being liked and approved of, safety in having people perceive them in a very particular way, which is actually inauthentic and can be pretty controlling and not feel so good to the people that they're in relationship with. So very, very complicated.

dynamic and I would say kind of an epidemic. I would say that there are so many people who are operating this way in the world, not necessarily because they were in relationship with an alcoholic or an addict, but maybe just because this is the way that they

Ashley (10:00.852)
thought would be the best way to navigate whatever the circumstances were. And most people who have this codependent personality structure are highly empathic. They were highly empathic from the beginning. And so we're really able to attune to how people were feeling around them and decided they could do something about that.

you know, maybe had a false sense of power and control about that. So.

Nate (10:37.405)
Yeah, I'm glad you brought that in the empath part in because particularly when we're talking about a spiritual lens through which we're looking at this stuff, I think that is a big piece that choosing the path of codependency when you're a highly sensitive person, when you can kind of feel people's energies, it's almost, I don't want to say natural, but it's just a very easy.

It's an easy way to self-soothe and to try to, yeah, take back some control of environments where maybe you don't feel so safe. you know, it doesn't, like you said, it doesn't take an alcoholic parent or family member to make you feel unsafe as a young developing person. There's tons of stuff out there, just even in the culture, even, you know, the kind of coercion and power that

dynamics that play out at schools even starting at the preschool level if you're highly sensitive then that means the threshold by which you know you get triggered or you feel threatened is much much higher than than the average person and so it's understandable that you're going to adopt some tactic or or coping mechanism to help you navigate it in

It is a very, yeah, it's kind of a natural fit for empathic people. But it has downsides.

Ashley (12:16.569)
It does. You know, in my, in my psychotherapy practice, I

Ashley (12:23.82)
when I was working with people with codependency issues and in my own life, I noticed that codependent recovery and spiritual awakening really went well together. So because part of the recovery for somebody who is trying to control their environment is to come into their own

authentic needs, their own authentic experience, looking for resourcing in themselves, taking responsibility for your own emotional state, your own life, meeting your own needs, and then opening up to what is available to me on a spiritual plane. I mean, there's, there's a lot of resourcing that can happen in spiritual practice. And so

These, the pathways, I mean, I think this is part of why we're talking about it is because there's a lot of harmony in those two paths.

Nate (13:35.973)
Yeah, absolutely. I know I was, I'm gonna go back a little bit and I'm gonna stay with this thing, but I'm gonna go back because I'm having a realization again, because we're talking about things that are lived experiences for us. These conversations, they bring stuff up and they just kind of, they can cause new realizations. And one of the things that I was realizing as...

And moments where I in the past had been triggered with anger or resentment when my well was dry and I'd been over giving and that was my, you know, that was me, that was my tactic or whatever. I think part of the reason that that feeling rises up so quickly is connected to another aspect of codependency which is not having a very good relationship with

when you're depleted and also not having a very good awareness, at least for me, what I like to do, what fills me back up, what restores me. And so when you get depleted and then you go low, it's not like you even want to be resentful or angry or kind of out, you know, put this energy out, but it feels kind of terrifying to know I don't really know how to resource myself.

I'm not in touch with what feels good. I don't know how to help myself. And so that bigger emotion of resentment or anger or frustration can kind of like, it's like it jumps into the room like a big bull in a china shop and is like, I can take care of this feeling. Like, don't worry about what works for you. Let's talk about what doesn't. And so it just starts throwing its weight around. And that's like, that's the frustrating part because at the end of kind of a...

unleashing of grievances or whatever with a partner or a family member. You feel bad, they feel bad. Nothing has really gotten resolved. It's this really kind of awful thing and you end up actually sometimes recapitulating the dynamic because then you might need to soothe them because you were such a bear to a certain degree. And instead, if you in those moments of low

Nate (15:57.479)
didn't necessarily turn to the well of grievances or anger or resentment, or maybe you acknowledge them, but also you say, well, geez, what would I really like to do right now? What would fill me up? Then that would change your dynamic and your response so much. And I also just wanna put in this very small caveat, that thought in itself might just be all that it is.

and maybe the thing you do for yourself is just sitting in a room with no one else in the room. Because I know for myself, in the very beginning stages of peeling these layers off, I would have my wife very nice, it would be like, maybe you should go get a massage, maybe you should go to a movie and go do this, and it's almost like that much claiming of energy and space that I need that felt threatening.

And so it's like baby steps just to get you to a place of just like, I think I just, you know, I'm going to start with a timeout. So yeah, I don't know. That's, those are some of the things that, that was something that came up when we were talking about the dynamics.

Ashley (17:12.918)
Yeah. You know, it makes me think about when I was first sort of unpacking all of this in my twenties, I remember being like, who am I? What do I like? What, you know, that I really had been working so tirelessly on soothing everyone around me and managing my environment that I had never really stopped.

to wonder what made me happy. And I would say the last 30 years have been about figuring that out. And it's kind of cool, you know, it's cool to still be figuring that out, but there is something at the heart of it that's so simple. And this is what I love about meditation and spiritual practices, what's here right now.

You know, if you're not strategizing to try to control or manage your environment to feel safe, to feel worthy, to feel okay. What's happening? How do I feel? What do I need? What do I want? You know, these, these just very simple questions that haven't been asked need to get asked. And it doesn't mean you

Nate (18:28.21)
Yeah.

Ashley (18:38.624)
You're, you I think a lot of people who are starting to ask, who start to ask those questions think it's almost selfish. They feel guilty for asking the questions. They feel, you know, yeah, yeah. but usually the people around us want us to feel happy because when we feel happy, they feel happy. You know, we're, we're, we got it wrong that everybody needs soothing and caretaking.

Nate (18:45.059)
Yeah. Yeah, I feel like that's a big fear, for sure.

Ashley (19:07.6)
you know, at the end of the day, when we're all responsible for our own happiness, we do so much better. We all do so much better. Our relationships relax. can enjoy each other more. So, and there's this moment where you can, you know, most people who are running codependency in their bodies, feel it as anxiety. I would say.

And so you can stop and be curious about what this anxiety is. What's the goal of thinking 12 steps ahead for how everything is going to go? What's the goal there? You know, and really have some compassion for that part of you that thought this was a really good idea and it had has kept you safe. It did give you a lot of good

things, but now it might be getting in the way of presence, of authentic living, of healthy relationships. And so there's an unwinding of that. It's both really exciting to start asking those questions and also a bit terrifying to start asking those questions.

Nate (20:19.112)
Yeah.

Nate (20:31.474)
Yeah, absolutely, because in that process that you just described about the thinking multiple steps ahead, that is about fear and control, right? And so we're trying to predict and we're trying to control and we're trying to kind of maintain a homeostasis in us so that we can feel okay. But here's the big news flash.

You will never feel great that way. You will only ever feel okay. You will only ever manage life. And I think one of the things you mentioned, and I wanna just pull it out to the spiritual lens, since that's what we're doing here on Unraveling, is getting in touch with what brings you joy, getting in touch with what resources you, getting in touch with what makes you happy is also the ultimate key to

pulling in those bigger dreams and things that you want into your life. mean, if you tune in at all to any of the metaphysical books around the law of attraction, around drawing things into you, you have to be able to have a relationship with your desire and with your joy and your happiness in order to start manifesting and bringing those things in. And to just be a

you know, happy, have a good life. I would say start with the idea that this is just gonna make me happier and more pleasant for myself and then more pleasant for other people and added byproducts, things in your life are gonna start unfolding and changing in this very powerful way. yeah, so there's that aspect that, you know, that's kind of that bigger goal.

It's not just about shedding that stuff and getting in touch with it. It's also for us that are on this spiritual journey, it's like that's kind of the path that many, many teachers lay out to enlightenment or to awareness, which is like, you gotta find your bliss, but it's not about, it's not serving other people in that way. You're serving other people by being authentically you, by raising your vibration, and by letting them know.

Nate (22:56.676)
that you're whole and contained and that you are tapped into your bliss and that they can find it too if they so choose. So it's a very, it's such a different dynamic for the codependent person and there's obviously there's just lots of gradations and levels along the way there to that.

Ashley (23:14.946)
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think sometimes you have to hit a bottom or a wall with this stuff because your point about if you maintain this operating system, you'll never feel more than just okay. And I think, I think for me, it, it, it changed. I mean, I think that worked for a while, but then there was sort of a crash.

Nate (23:20.624)
Thank

Ashley (23:45.488)
And I think that happens with addiction. think codependency is a form of addiction. It's addiction to connection. It's an addiction to control. And I was just thinking about my first retreat, silent retreat, which was with Adyashanti with 250 people. And, you know, it's silent. I don't know anybody. There's no eye contact. There's no relating.

And I didn't have my family, I didn't have friends, I didn't have my phone, I didn't have my clients. And I just had this detox, absolute detox of connection and realizing how much my psyche relied on connection. Almost no reliance on my own internal world that I was always looking outward.

for how I could get a hit of okayness or a hit of wellbeing. And just like any addiction, you gotta keep that going, you know, until you can't keep it going anymore. So that was a really helpful thing for me to observe in myself. But it is helpful if this is something you're working with to see it as an addiction and have some compassion for that.

part of you that has really formed a deep habit and belief system around it.

Nate (25:21.358)
Yeah, yeah, I mean, I think as you're saying this, it's I'm again, I'm reflecting back on my own, my own patterns. And I know one of the ways that I can know that something is kind of a, it has an addictive aspect to it for me is understanding the way that dopamine works. A lot of people think that dopamine is pleasure seeking and it's not really the pleasure seeking part. It's

the anticipation of having something pleasurable happening. That's where the chase happens. So if you anticipate serving other people, like making a nice dinner, writing a nice card, like doing something nice for your neighbor, doing something nice for your boyfriend or girlfriend or whatever, if you're anticipating that and then when it happens, you get this really big hit of like,

that felt good and like I was acknowledged, you might have a little bit of a dopamine problem. And what's tricky about this is you don't wanna conflate it with just being a nice person and doing good, doing nice things. It's taken in totality with the rest of your behavior and everything else. it's like, it can be a little bit tricky, but if you're already thinking maybe this dynamic is something I'm tapped into.

that can be a piece of it is like, do I look forward to putting other people's needs in front of mine?

Ashley (26:55.18)
Well, it's not so innocent, right? It's not so innocent. If you got pleasure out of doing service just for the sake of doing service, then you probably don't have a codependency issue. But if you're anticipating the validation on the other side, sort of having control over somebody's reaction or emotional state or how they perceive you.

That's the really, that's just the tricky, tricky side to this. And it's, it's kind of hard to see it first. It's a little humbling to see how your mind is, is really motivated to control how people see you. And...

Nate (27:39.376)
Yeah, and I think you're like you were saying that you're not going to get really, really strong. You're not going to really get strong feedback that it's the bad move. you know, we talked about the couple a week or two ago, we were talking about the flow and the flow train and like how you get off one train and get on the other and how society has certain avenues that are just very well worn. And I think this is one of them. The giver is not going to get pushback from anybody.

I mean people will go their whole entire lives with this dynamic and that's not even necessarily a bad thing. It's just once you're aware of it and you're not necessarily happy with it, then pulling it apart is you realize just how much attention and presence you really need at least in the beginning to start.

becoming aware of these dynamics because they are kind of insidious, they're reinforced constantly, and they're largely subconscious for many of us.

Ashley (28:52.716)
They are, and when they start to unravel, they're very painful.

Nate (28:57.59)
yeah.

Ashley (28:59.5)
It's so painful.

Nate (29:00.315)
We should have put a disclaimer at the beginning of the show. Yeah, this will be painful.

Ashley (29:06.228)
Yeah, it's painful to discover you don't know who you are. It's painful to discover you don't know what your needs are, what makes you happy, you know, that you haven't really learned how to rely on yourself and get those needs met. And so it's painful. And then there's a really exciting journey that starts when you start with it.

to start answering some of those questions and start taking more responsibility for your life and soothing your own anxiety, know, figuring out how to soothe yourself instead of always looking outside of you to soothe that kind of innocent aspect that was looking for some semblance of safety and control. And so I think there are a lot of people that can relate to that.

And I think we have more resources than ever to get in recovery for codependency and navigate it. And for me, the spiritual path has just been so critical for giving me an opportunity, like for example, on that retreat, to see it, to see how much I relied on connection and finding another

place to go. That was just me.

Nate (30:38.481)
Yeah, I really love that idea of the pivot, right? The pivot from awareness of this thing isn't working to curiosity, excitement, and exploration of how do I reunite with myself? How do I know myself more? And it totally makes me think of just like, you know, one of the pioneers, the mothers of

spirituality you think of Louise Hay and you know self-love and mirror work and like you know start dating yourself before you want to date anybody else just like really bringing that kind of like playful curious and very intentional self-reflection just like I am a very cool and interesting person and I want to know more about me

so that I can be better for myself, better for everyone in my life, and just be a happier, more fulfilled person. That relationship to the quote unquote work can change everything in terms of how this process can feel for you. You can take it from kind of a bit of a slog and kind of hard in that initial diagnosing phase or identifying phase to

Hey now, like, okay, so that's how I have been operating. What do I get to do now? Yeah, I mean, there's a lot of freedom there if you choose to take it.

Ashley (32:18.7)
Yeah, yeah. There's also this other aspect of codependency that we haven't talked about, which is denial. And, you know, break, I think that's part of also the painful part is breaking through denial, but it was reminding me of my therapist in my twenties who really helped me unpack a lot of this. I don't know that we called it codependency at the time, but she would really help me see my faulty thinking.

And at the same time, she was directing me back to a voice, an inner voice that had a lot of, that was highly empathic, that was highly intuitive, that saw things that I just didn't connect to, that I had really rejected actually as being of any import at all. I hadn't given it much weight. And so there was this kind of

I mean, I don't know if she thought about all of this, that was my experience of there were both things needed to happen. One to see my faulty thinking and behavior and then the other to start to discover what was true for me. And sometimes truth is hard. Sometimes truth is really hard to see. We don't want to see it, but that's also part of

the spiritual path is locating our truth. And our truth is wonderful. Our truth is our truth. It's the basis of our lives. And so as you begin to touch into the truth, maybe it rearranges your life a bit. You have to quit your job or leave a relationship or start something new that you hadn't anticipated, but it's critical.

to authentic living, it's critical to a spirit led life to know your truth and to come out of that denial. So.

Nate (34:26.866)
Yeah, yeah, I mean, think the part that gets tricky for people on that pathway is they've gone from a very certain and controlled way of doing things to then stepping on a new path. And it's full of uncertainty. It's full of discovery, probably some good moments, some hard moments.

But ultimately it's not something that is predictable. Which for anxious over-feelers, sometimes that can feel like a big ask.

Ashley (35:10.464)
I was like, uncomfortable is like a nice way to put it, you know, it like, it can be terrifying. You know, if we were talking about this before the podcast, this kind of unraveling the ego and seeing the ego and then dismantling it, it's like the slow, painful, agonizing death, which it doesn't sound so appealing, but there's no way out, but through with this stuff, you know, just.

Nate (35:15.675)
Yeah. Yeah.

Nate (35:37.721)
Absolutely.

Ashley (35:39.582)
is what it is, but you know, you, develop patterns of codependency or other addictions to meet a very profound need for safety and security for some level of okayness or comfort. mean, and really honoring that honoring that whatever operating system you find yourself in.

There was a reason, a really good reason, and it probably worked. For as long as it worked, it worked until it stops working. And that's the good news. It stops working so that we can realize our true selves and live more freely and authentically in the world.

Nate (36:27.439)
Absolutely. Yeah, it's, it's when it breaks down, it's the gift of opening you up to a new perspective, a new way of being. So as scary as that can be, it's again, it's the portal transformation. It's there, those hard moments. That's where you get, you're at the fork in the road and you get to choose which way you're going to go.

Nate (36:52.573)
Okay, well, this is going to be an ongoing conversation. We'll break it up a little bit and have some other episodes in between, but I think for us, we're just so passionate about talking about this because it's something that we have lived experience with. We see it in our personal lives. We see it out there in the broader world with friends, family, coworkers. So we will put a button in this.

conversation and come back to it. So that's codependency part one. yeah, we hope we gave you some food for thought there. Lots of stuff to chew on and think about as this all relates to your own spiritual journey.

Nate (37:47.527)
think you're still going.

Ashley (37:51.414)
It's not leave, it's, sorry.