The Invitation of Shadow Work

In this conversation, Nate and Ashley delve into the concept of shadow work, exploring its significance in personal growth and self-acceptance. They discuss the challenges of facing triggers, the importance of safe spaces for healing, and the cultural implications of societal shadows. The dialogue emphasizes the necessity of acknowledging uncomfortable truths and integrating all aspects of oneself to achieve wholeness. Ultimately, they highlight the transformative power of shadow work as a means to reclaim one's essence and foster personal empowerment.

Book mentioned by Nate- Let God Love You Up - Journey through the Master Wound by Reverend Zoe Inman
Comedian mentioned by Ashley- Alok Vaid Menon
https://www.youtube.com/@alokvmenon

Transcript

Nate (00:01.72)
Welcome everyone to Spiritual Unraveling with Ashley and Nate. And this week we are going to be discussing shadows, shadow work, our shadow. Also, topically for the country, we were just talking about the shadow of society, our shadow of America, dealing with a lot of hard things to look at and

I was calling them invitations. I think I'm aware that I'm being slightly cheeky and euphemistic using that word invitation to discuss things that are hard and difficult and uncomfortable to look at. But I think it is always an opportunity to grow and to integrate when we acknowledge

the darkest parts of ourselves. And that really is the essence of shadow work is looking at things that are uncomfortable to look at and understanding that if it's in the world and if it's up for us, it's a part of us. And it's something that is actually being called back to you. And there's a request from the universe to have

to have that piece of it be reintegrated into you. yeah, light stuff. Ashley, what do you... What comes up when I start talking shadow?

Ashley (01:39.182)
Well, the first thing that comes up is I do think it's an invitation. I'll go all the way to say that I think it's the invitation of our time. And as a therapist, I think I would often get very excited when people were willing to do shadow work. I don't think I've ever called it shadow work.

But it's what it is, you know, to really go into, to have the courage to look at unacceptable aspects of self. we were talking about, before we got on today, we were talking about how when we're triggered, it's usually

we're being shown an aspect of ourself that we haven't accepted. so I would say like the concept of shadow work, if people can get on board with the concept of shadow work, the concept of really going in and looking at what is unacceptable in yourself, there's the reward, the consequence,

positive outcome of doing that kind of work. It's so immense. can't even like words like freedom. Don't cover it, know words like peace words like inner strength. It just doesn't you can't even really describe what what it is. but but you know it without the framing without the context shadow work is terrifying and we have

So much conditioning against it. You know, I was joking recently about, you know, being growing up, having sort of 17 elephants in the room you weren't allowed to talk about. We just learned so early on, don't be this, don't deal with that. Don't look at this. Don't talk comment on that, you know. And so all of these aspects get really shoved down pretty deep and we go into safety, know, safety and security.

Ashley (03:56.75)
around not looking at things. I think that's the first thing that I want to say is just to, know, if shadow and shadow work is calling to you, really start to investigate the concept of it. Because once your system has agreed to the process,

You're kind of 50 % of the way there. The rest is easy. It's sort of like if you agreed to like run a marathon, you know, it's not going to be fun. That's not going to be fun at all. But there's some part of you that's like, this is good. I've decided I'm giving myself permission and I'm and I believe in the outcome of this and I'm going to feel good and I want to attain this thing. Then I'm willing to be really uncomfortable in this process. So anytime we agree to a process like that.

Nate (04:27.579)
Yeah.

Ashley (04:54.658)
We're sort of 50 % of the way there, because we can do anything.

Nate (04:58.531)
Yeah, absolutely. Well, there's two things that popped up immediately when you first started talking and you were talking about being triggered. I think that is a great place to kind of at least mine the initial part of this conversation, which is what makes shadow work uniquely challenging to kind of sink your teeth into is that triggers are often

not necessarily connected to the shadow belief. Triggers come up and when you get triggered by something, it's not immediately apparent what that belief is that needs to get reintegrated. So I think when we start talking about shadow work and kind of some of the complexities of it, I feel like that is a big component that at least initially

it might be a little confusing like why is this like why did I all of sudden have this big reaction? It requires a big, it requires a level of insight and curiosity to follow the breadcrumbs back to okay if I allowed myself to get upset by something like this showing up in my life or having a big response then let's then you know once you've calmed your system down a little bit, walk it back.

if that thing triggered me, why did it trigger me? And then you get to the belief, the underlying belief that usually is actually the shadow work. That's where it is. And so I think at least initially that can pose a bit of a problem for people because it does require this kind of calming down of the system and a value.

evaluating or investigating something a little bit as opposed to something just being very apparent on the surface. I mean, by definition, it's not on the surface, right? It's something that's hiding in the shadows. And then the other piece that I just wanted to mention too, in terms of, so that's part of, I'll give you both sides of it. That's the difficult part, but I think the compelling aspect of it, which you also alluded to is

Ashley (07:08.93)
Totally.

Nate (07:25.58)
when you have the buy-in to do the investigation and to kind of go down that road, we can leverage the parts of our brain that really like to find things out. Like leverage the, like, you know, I said investigation and curiosity, I kind of use them interchangeably, but I would say curiosity is probably the better word in terms of how do we work with our psyche in...

give it some nicer language, know, like the invitation was a nicer language than a trigger. So yeah, leverage the idea that we really don't like the idea that something is motivating us or steering us or manipulating us that we don't know about. And that's a very strong drive in us to kind of be like, once you realize that that's happening, you get this kind of like,

creepy feeling where like, I don't, I don't want to be a party to this. So then you can kind of be like, okay, so now I want to figure out what it is. So there's, there's those two pieces. gotta get, you gotta get over that initial confusion about the difference between a trigger and a belief. And then you have to leverage the kind of playful side of this, which is I want to get curious about myself and about maybe some old ideas, beliefs, wounds, whatever.

whatever you want to call them because usually they are not readily apparent and usually they lie pretty far in the past. You don't have to go figure out exactly why that thing happened but it is important to uncover what the belief is.

Ashley (09:07.978)
Yeah, and you're right. It is tricky. It is tricky because it is usually lying in the unconscious and pretty shoved down there. When you were saying that, I thought that's so good because, you know, a lot of the shadow work, the shadow work that I've done in my life, I haven't called it that necessarily in therapy, in energy healing and meditation. It's with somebody else. I mean, not

You know what I mean? Like that's one beautiful aspect to relational work is that somebody else can help you tease that stuff out because it is hard. So having a safe container to do shadow work is amazing. You don't need it. know, Adyashanti calls the sort of other aspect of the partner of meditation is self-inquiry.

So really to open up that curiosity, that inquiry into what's arising, what is arising. And so you just get super curious. We get triggered, let's say by somebody's behavior, instead of ruminating on their behavior, trying to change their behavior, trying to fix something, you you really go into, whoa, what is this? What was that reaction? What's happening in me right now? And sometimes the answer comes right away.

Sometimes it's just holding the question. You know, or you could bring it into with a practitioner. But I know for me, like when I do these long meditation retreats, you know, like one woman came to mind, a woman who's just very joyful, happy.

woman came on my retreat. I mean, she's just delightful person. And what she got in touch with on the retreat was anger. And it felt to me like she needed that space and the quiet and the period of non-distraction contemplation time to get in touch with anger. And anger was just probably a shadow, you know, in her life, but needs attention just like anything else, right? We can't pick and choose.

Nate (11:12.924)
Mm-hmm.

Ashley (11:35.788)
what we, you know, what needs our attention, it all needs our attention to be a fully realized person, which maybe will never be because it goes on and on forever, it seems, but.

Nate (11:50.182)
Yeah. Well, I think one of the things you're pointing out, which is a nice caveat or preface to doing this work, is sometimes the acknowledgement of the shadow is kind of a really big part of the shadow work in that there's a gentleness or a grace that we need to...

Ashley (11:50.189)
Yeah.

Nate (12:17.819)
give to ourselves, particularly when we're trying to do this work ourselves, that once the belief or the thought has been uncovered, you might need to just sit with it for a while before you start probing it and doing different things when they're trying to release it because that acknowledgement is probably 80 % of the whole thing. It's just like, that's it, there it is, you know?

I have awareness of it now and let that be enough. And I think to your other point around working with a practitioner, absolutely there is particularly with this work a huge benefit in having somebody holding space and gently, somebody who knows what they're doing, who can gently lead you.

to or through that conversation with the darker parts of yourself because often from the outside, the stuff that people are going through can seem fairly obvious when like loved ones or therapists or different people, they're like, I can kind of see what's happening in this person, but it doesn't do them any good to just drop it and be like, it's this, it's that belief, that core wound you have about your parent or whatever. It's like, you know, it helps to have someone.

hold the space and give you questions or different ideas to kind of get you there yourself. It's almost like the thing that was coming up when you were saying it was this idea of a two-way mirror. the person holding the space is actually looking through the two-way mirror and it's you and you talking to each other, trying to have this conversation. And the person who's in the removed is like, it's...

they can kind of see because we're very cagey with ourselves that's really what's happening we created our own hiding spots so then that is part of that unique challenge that we face which is why another person can be so helpful.

Ashley (14:32.046)
totally like a safe person, somebody we feel safe with. And then what happens over time is you develop that inside of yourself. You develop a sense of safety that and a willingness, know, just to having, think that that's what you were sort of pointing to is just this willingness to see, I'm willing to see.

Nate (14:33.901)
Yeah.

Nate (14:41.113)
Mm-hmm.

Ashley (14:54.956)
what hasn't been seen. What does it take to get to that place? There's a certain sense of safety inside of my own psyche, my own safety inside of my life, you know, that I could get to a point where I'm really willing to see what I haven't been willing to see. And sometimes it's just timing.

That's why we don't need people to... If somebody did drop something, you'd be like, well, that doesn't sound right. If you're not ready, because you're not ready. Right. So I think there's... And I think that why I was saying it's sort of the... What was I saying? Something about like, it's an invitation, but it feels like the invitation right now. One, because of just this...

Nate (15:25.324)
Right. It'll just bounce off you.

Ashley (15:47.054)
crazy judgment and divisiveness in our culture. People are just sort of operating in a triggered state, you know, lot of the time pointing fingers at the other side or, you know, ways of being behaving, thinking, operating that don't feel good, that don't feel, you know, that are triggering.

Nate (16:00.696)
you

Ashley (16:13.964)
And so we're in this major opportunity to look at our own trigger, our own division, our own judgment, our own hate inside of ourselves. And I think the path is probably something, you know, the invitation to what, and I think the path is like self-realization, self-acceptance, wholeness, you know, it's like coming back home to ourselves and being able to like,

Nate (16:36.287)
Yeah.

Ashley (16:43.01)
hold all of ourselves, all of our experiences. That's the real invitation and the shadow work is just such a key part. You can't bypass that part. You can't get to self-realization without shadow work. don't think. mean, is that a true statement?

Nate (17:01.866)
Yeah, I don't think so. mean, not if you're incarnated. Not if you've come up through the land of humans. No, I mean, that's part of the journey, right? Is that we pack it on and then we kind of unpack it. Yeah, and the... I think the piece that becomes huge that I think might be elusive for people is...

Ashley (17:05.812)
you

Nate (17:31.155)
the core understanding that you exist and will never not exist. And that anything that comes up around the shadow that feels like a threat to the psyche, those are all actually just kind of like superficial illusions of a limited life, of the ego really, and of...

structure that the psyche has formed to try to make sense of this, but when you can bolster yourself through this kind of I am that I am, I exist, I never won't exist, then you can get a lot more playful and light and curious about the shadow stuff and it becomes a little less threatening. And I think

When people are moving into this place of real extreme judgment, particularly in our country, I'm gonna do a little digression really quick. My daughter is in seventh grade and she is learning about the formation of the 13 colonies and learning about colonization and British people coming here and starting the first, the roots of it. And in part of that discussion is a discussion about the Puritans and the Quakers.

It is so fascinating to listen to this stuff with a new frame or lens and really hearing that the kind of hardcore Protestants like literally killed people who had different views in the beginning of this country and that that foundation is laid into our

country in that belief system. I think that probably what comes up for people when they have a lot of judgment is a very, very deep, deep, old, unacknowledged idea about a wrathful or vengeful God. And this was talked about in one of the books you recommended to me. it's the, think that this, this monk calls it the God-shaped wound or

Nate (19:52.956)
can't remember what it was, but it's this idea that there is a Abrahamic, bearded, judgmental God who is gonna look at you and he's gonna send you to hell if you do bad things and you go to heaven if you're a good person. And that is kind of like dismissive as like us in the spiritual New Age world can kind of be about like, that's kind of an arcane way of looking at religion and whatever.

A lot of people still very much believe that, have that internalized. And if you take that as a core belief and you start extrapolating out other beliefs, you soon realize why judgmental, people are judgmental, people are doing all of these things that they think make them feel safe because they feel eternally threatened by what's happening. And so I think we can't

move this conversation to that broader kind of political cultural lens without acknowledging that one of the biggest shadows that we're all working with is the fallacy that we're going to go to hell if we do this wrong. know, which is probably, know, Christians are always saying the biggest sin or the biggest thing that the devil ever did was convince you that he didn't exist. And I'm like, or the biggest problem is that

men convinced you that the devil did exist and that you weren't divine by nature and that somehow God, the divine creator of all that is, built in flaws and has shame traps and guilt things for you so that he can send you to lava land? Come on! I know, I'm sorry if I'm alienating you. you have religious beliefs, I'm recovering, Catholic, Christian, everything.

I think that we can't have this discussion around shadow stuff without at least acknowledging that that is a big limitation for a lot of people is that initial kind of wound of not trusting or loving God and not understanding that you are a reflection or a spark of the divine.

Ashley (22:04.812)
Yeah, just the basic sense of I am worthy because I am. I'm worthy because I'm here. Yeah, safety. I was thinking safety and shame are the hardest ones to penetrate. And that's why I would come back to, know, however you do shadow work needs to be in a really safe container. And it may take a while to build a safe container, whatever that is, whatever that looks like in a relationship with a practitioner or with yourself.

Nate (22:08.717)
Yeah, and safety.

Nate (22:14.062)
Yeah.

Nate (22:25.103)
.

Ashley (22:35.288)
You know, just in your own practice, in your own life. But I think it's our birthright. It's our birthright to come back into that original worthiness, that original I am that I am. know, it's like it's the truth. And when people touch into it, you know, on meditation retreat or they touch into it in any given moment, it's like this remembering, this coming home.

experience and whether we're talking about the wound of Christianity or we're talking about the wound of patriarchy or white supremacy or capitalism, know, we're misogyny, we're all walking around with sort of these belief systems that we, you know, just feel like the wallpaper. you know, we're all questioning them now, which is so beautiful.

Nate (23:33.953)
Yeah.

Ashley (23:34.498)
but they're in there. They rear their heads. And shadow work isn't like, you get one, you see something one time and then that's it. You work with it and it's layered. And I often in therapy people would say, but I thought I dealt with this. It's like, it's infinite. It's the things they go, they sort of have these depths and layers to them.

Nate (23:57.842)
Yeah.

Ashley (24:05.106)
And so what I was thinking about at this point in our evolution, the best thing you could do for yourself is create the muscle is the mechanism for shadow work, the mechanism for being willing to see. And for me, that's felt like kind of courage and humility.

Nate (24:18.485)
Yeah.

Ashley (24:31.97)
this kind of combination of courage and humility is sort of discovering that in myself, that those are prerequisites to this mechanism, to this muscle development. And then you sort of open the floodgates. the floodgate of shadow work starts to get exciting. I think you were pointing to this earlier about using that.

using that part of yourself that's really interested in knowing things, right? Well, this floodgate opens and it starts to become exciting to use this mechanism for evolution and self-growth. this thing that I was talking about, about freedom and inner peace and inner strength, and I don't know what other words we could pull out, but it doesn't quite...

touch it, does it? doesn't quite, but it keeps you going. Whatever the benefits that you get, and maybe it's this feeling of coming home, maybe it's a feeling of self-love, it kind of keeps you coming back. And so you get sort of the next level and the next phase of shadow work comes in. So it's not like, you sign up for three months of shadow work and you're done.

Nate (25:54.385)
Thank you.

Ashley (25:54.988)
It's actually the opposite. It's like developing a new way of being in the world, which is I'm open to knowing what I haven't known. I'm open to seeing what I haven't seen. I'm open to healing what hasn't been healed all the time, forever amen.

Nate (26:14.919)
Yeah, absolutely. And that's an important piece. If we don't have a limit or an expectation on like passing the shadow certification exam, like I've released them. I got my diploma right here. It says my shadows are all taken care of. If we don't have that expectation, then it builds in again, that level of playfulness and curiosity and

Let's us off the hook in a way that can make shadow work again. Yeah, very very playful and You were you were mentioning humility and I'm not sure what the other word was humility and Courage. Yeah, absolutely. And I also think we'll just insert in their grace and the grace that

Ashley (27:02.126)
courage.

Nate (27:12.455)
grace that we can bestow upon ourselves in not thinking that we need to get it all done at once, not thinking that anything needs to get done, and just being so gentle with this process because it is, at the end of the day, it is some of the most tender work that we can do with ourselves or facilitate for someone else. It's like...

there's such profound energy locked into some of these old limiting beliefs and they're, yeah, they're often, they haven't seen the light of day for a really long time. And as we're talking about our country, there's like a really big difference between acknowledging through textbooks and different things around that highlight racism or that highlight

patriarchy or the problems with capitalism, that's one thing, but that's not the same as really integrating and acknowledging that those things weren't just things that were foisted upon or experienced by other people, but they're things that scar the people in the psyche of the land of the people who were also inflicting it because we are all connected. And so there's this real...

sense that's like, yeah, it takes more than just lip service. There's a real acknowledgement that we're in the process of right now. And I think certain characters and movements in this country are just bringing a lot of the hardest parts of our country, of our

America as kind of this thing, this amorphous thing, this conglomeration of thoughts, people's beliefs, all these things. This is the time of our shadow. mean, we really are given this really big invitation right now to move into a place of really looking at everything and accepting that all of these parts of us are true. The good, the bad, the ugly. And the only way through this is through

Nate (29:37.238)
acceptance, acknowledgement, integration. And I think really as much as it's difficult and it's probably hard to hear in post what could feel like a devastating election for some people, trying to move to a place of non-judgment and just looking at everything and allowing it to exist.

We can have preferences, there's nothing wrong with preferences and saying, well, man, I really would prefer for things to get better, but that should not be, that can't exist, how dare that person, literally thinking that someone should not exist, like, i.e. that person doesn't deserve to exist or live. These are things that I'm hearing out there in the zeitgeist and it's very, like, shocking to me, this level of...

of confrontation with these harsh truths and then wanting to just like kind of obliterate them. And I think the reason you and I are compelled to have this conversation right now is the idea that there is a big invitation right now to look at the darkest, hardest parts of our country and to just allow them to exist because guess what? They do. They're here. They're in the room.

Ashley (31:01.34)
Totally. And it's almost like that compulsion to hate, to judge and to hate is a resistance to looking at your own internal grief or fear or judgment or self-hate or whatever. I love this one.

comedian who talks about homophobia as unprocessed grief, transphobia as unprocessed grief. And he does it so eloquently. Maybe if I can find him, I'll put him in the notes. it's such a beautiful, beautiful, think he's, or they, guess, I think they use they, them pronouns. They are,

just so beautifully pointing to something with so much compassion. And so even as somebody who is literally maybe unsafe because of who they are, can find this point of compassion to say, is, it's the shadow.

It's just the shadow that's operating here and do it in a compassionate way. I would say if people are feeling right now helpless or powerless or they don't know what to do, this is what you can do. The shadow work is what you can do. You can take this fear, you can take this confusion, and you can start to really unpack your own inner fear, your own inner grief, your own inner...

self-hate. It's all there because it's there in all of us. And it's just a time of incredible opportunity for this work. And it's what we can do. Because it doesn't feel like there's a whole lot we can do right now. It feels like, yeah, there is a lot of confusion right now.

Nate (33:12.222)
Yeah.

Nate (33:21.151)
Yeah, and we've kind of gone back and forth with this, so I guess I'll make this explicit in terms of how I think what we're talking about can be utilized in the most effective way, which is if you're feeling triggered by the macro, the invitation is to go into the micro, is to go into you. So if something outside feels big and hairy and too hard to kind of wrap your head around and you're being triggered left and right,

then it's not looking at or resolving that thing in the society or in the political system or whatever. It's inside of you and it's an aspect of yourself. So it's like, yeah, there's, and that really is the most powerful way to affect global change. I mean, we hear that kind of think globally, act locally. The most local you can get is you.

start working your own shadow, integrating parts of yourself, when you start having a cleaner channel and you're in your power and in your essence, then you start radiating that out into the world, and that's a huge game changer. And the added bonus is it's beneficial to you. You're gonna start feeling better. You're gonna start feeling less kind of pushed around by these big...

movements ideas things, you know political parties people demagogues, whatever you want to think, you know that that's those are almost all distractions from the core invitation, which is what is showing up inside of me that is so like triggered

Ashley (35:14.274)
Yeah, it's funny how we keep coming back to these themes. think a couple podcasts ago, you mentioned that these moments, these emotional moments are the portals, you know? And then here we are again. I mean, I think, you know, this is what I really love about our conversations is it's, you know, these are concepts, shadow work is a concept, but it's just so grounded in.

What can we do? What is the practice of spiritual awakening? What is the brass tacks? Like, what do you do? You know, how do you work this in your life? And it doesn't mean you're going to never get triggered. know, spiritual awakening is an ongoing thing. so it's, you said it earlier, it's not for an outcome necessarily. It's the process. It's this process of

You know, the truth, the truth, I guess, the truth, the process of revealing the truth. And, you know, you and I had, was, I called you, I don't know, it like a month ago and I was going through something and I can't even remember what it was that I was going through, but like the content, but I remember you so gently and compassionately said, I'm hearing judgment. And

And it was a wonderful opportunity for me to say, yeah, you're right. What's that about? And we just kind of got curious about where the judgment was coming from and what was underneath it. It was probably some thing around fear or shame or something. I don't even remember what the content was, but it was just this beautiful, lovely moment of pointing out, maybe you remember, but pointing out

judgment was here and you said, and we know judgment isn't true.

Nate (37:17.486)
Yeah.

Ashley (37:17.72)
So when you start this, when you're really on the path and your commitment and devotion is to the truth rather than to the sustaining of the ego, the sustaining of the personality or the identity that you've created about yourself. I'm a kind person. I'm not a judgmental person. If I had that running,

Nate (37:42.594)
Right.

Ashley (37:45.558)
in my system and you said that, I would have probably been like, well, Nate's not my friend.

Nate (37:50.613)
Great.

Ashley (37:51.935)
I would have had to reject you to in order to sustain that identity. But if my commitment is to the truth, then I welcome it. Wow. He's seeing judgment. Okay, let's look at that. Because we know judgment isn't true.

Nate (37:53.743)
Yeah.

Nate (38:06.944)
Yeah, well, and I think this is kind of where I think the shadow work can get a little confusing for people. I'm going to take what we're kind of talking about, make it a little actiony here, and I'm just going to say for people who are triggered by Donald Trump, and there are so many different parts that might be triggering to him for some people.

But let's just say Donald Trump is a liar or yeah, let's just say that. And so you see him as that and you hate him and you think it's bad and he's a bad person. What do we do with that in terms of shadow work? Well, the reality is that inside of us, there is a part of us that

doesn't like to face certain realities, certain situations, and we sometimes massage the truth, i.e. lie. We lie to ourselves, we lie to our spouses, we lie to our kids. We may not lie outwardly very much, but I don't think I've ever met anyone who's never lied. And then the feeling that we have about accepting

that there's a part of us that could be a liar, that's the work. There it is. So you don't need to prefer or like that our leaders are liars. You don't need to say that it's okay that they lie, but there is an invitation to accept that every human being has a piece of that inside of them.

And when we reject it in someone else, we're rejecting an aspect of ourselves. And again, this goes back to our soul and our soul integration and your soul is never gonna jive with that. It's always gonna be, it's always gonna give you some dissonance to say, not right until you can own all of it. The soul doesn't like disintegration, it wants integration.

Nate (40:31.643)
Anytime that you're going to disavow or not own a part of yourself, then you're going to get some manifestation of disharmony. That could be physical, it could be mental, it could be psychological. just like, think it's important to kind of like, because I had to do that at the first term with Trump. I'm like, why am I so?

Why am I so triggered by this guy? And for me at that point before kind of knowing what kind of a character he was, the trigger for me was kind of a really overly self-confident, pushy bombastic person, which I am not. And I have a hard time owning that there's even that part of me in there. And so it was really interesting for me to kind of sit with that and be like, there's not just, is there an invitation for me to

say I dislike that about him because it's a part of me that I can't really access, but also that when I do this work, it actually opens up inside of me a more integrated and holistic aspect of that, is having kind of a healthy amount of self-confidence that's grounded and whatever. And I think the invitation with the lying

example is an acknowledgement that sometimes we have knee-jerk reactions to hard truths and our mind, our egoic mind, is going to want to do certain things to soften the blow and that that's okay. It's the awareness of all of that that makes it important.

Ashley (42:17.304)
Totally. you just said so many good things. I so appreciate what you just said about that kind of overconfidence or whatever. It's, you know, as a man, right? Because I hadn't actually thought about men really being triggered by that. I just had, you know, hadn't thought about that. I know for me, my experience with the first term as a therapist was just this like wave of

women processing sexual assault, wave of women processing misogyny. And it was incredible, actually. It was all this unprocessed pain and disempowerment that got to come to the surface. And because it couldn't stay down anymore, it was so in our faces. Sexual violence was so in our faces. And so there was just this incredible opportunity. mean, you know,

Whatever you want to say about Trump, I do think he gave us Black Lives Matter and me too, and so much else. It's absolutely incredible. just the fact that all of this has happened in my lifetime is, I think it is such a gift. you know, it's hard to look at this stuff in the face. It is hard to process it, especially because we were raised...

Nate (43:18.226)
I was just gonna say, that's amazing, right?

Ashley (43:38.594)
to not look at it. We're so conditioned to shove it back down. so I think we're doing this gentle, we're doing this gentle invitation to say, it's here, it's time, it's here, and it's okay. And you'll get what you need in the time that you're ready to process it and you'll never get more.

You'll just never get more. You know, it's actually a beautiful unfolding of realization. really shadow work is, think, something that you can really trust if you're doing it for real. I guess if you're doing it for the right reasons, you know, and it's almost like, you know, if it's not uncomfortable, it's not real.

If it's not uncomfortable, you're probably not getting there because it should be uncomfortable. It's it's that's the edge that we're, you know, having that willingness to go to that edge and be uncomfortable and start to develop safety in your own psyche for this this type of work. It almost ends up feeling like a superpower in a weird way. The thing we've avoided the most ends up feeling like now I can do anything.

If I can do that, if I can face this, if I can face that, if I can get through the shame of this or that, there's this freedom and inner strength that is unlike most things.

Nate (45:27.27)
There you go, so that's the invitation. Claim your superpower through shadow work. just know that no matter what gets unveiled or revealed to you, it cannot destroy your essence. I think that's the superpower, right? That's the unlocking that you're talking about is this thing no longer holds power over me and I am

powerful and I'm more powerful when I acknowledge and integrate all these parts than I am when I keep myself, you know, cordoned off in little bits, stuff that's unsafe to look at.

Ashley (46:11.554)
Yeah. mean, even just thinking back to that example of being able to acknowledge that judgment, think of the two roads, you know, the two paths that unfold from that moment, right? If I couldn't handle that and I rejected it, that's one path and it looks one way. And, being able to see it and explore it and get underneath it and own it and own it, that's a completely different path. So just watch your, your life.

Nate (46:27.757)
Yeah.

Nate (46:38.647)
Yeah.

Ashley (46:41.506)
just unfold in completely different ways when you have that willingness to just explore these things.

Ashley (46:50.83)
Cool, very cool conversation. Love doing this stuff with you. Any last thoughts?

Nate (46:53.175)
Yeah, it was fun.

Nate (46:58.655)
No, mean my last little bit would just be to echo what we've already mentioned which is compassion and grace for yourself if you decide to start looking at hard to look at things. And know that sometimes just acknowledging that they're there is huge and be really proud of yourself for doing that alone and the rest will sort itself out.

Ashley (47:10.51)
you