Unraveling Productivity Culture

In this episode of Spiritual Unraveling, hosts Nate and Ashley delve into the complexities of productivity culture, exploring how societal expectations shape our sense of self-worth and well-being. They discuss the importance of stepping back from constant doing and embracing a more mindful, heart-centered approach to life. The conversation highlights the need for awareness in recognizing the ingrained beliefs that drive our actions and the value of listening to our inner guidance. Ultimately, they advocate for a personal revolution towards authenticity and self-acceptance, encouraging listeners to explore their unique paths.

Transcript

Nate (00:01.388)

Welcome everyone to Spiritual Unraveling with Ashley and Nate. And on today's podcast, we are going to be unraveling productivity culture and what it means to be stepping out of the constant doing, the constant measuring and really outcome driven lifestyle and culture that we're living in.

and stepping more into a pace or a lifestyle choice that is centered on well-being, centered on your heart, self-love, self-acceptance, slowing down enough to be fully present in all the moments, the tooth brushing, the going to the grocery store and being annoyed by the clerk, all the moments, and really,

coming into a state of deep appreciation and awareness and letting go of all the external validators that we need and these kind of arbitrary goals that we're setting in terms of once I do this, I will feel good or if I can achieve this outcome, X, Y, or Z, great things are gonna happen. So Ashley and I have intentionally

pulled ourselves out of this mindset and this matrix and we're trying, we're not successful all the time and we're at different levels and those levels change day to day. But we just thought that this was something coming up for us and on a personal note, it was coming up for me in the form of doubt. So having just a lot of doubt coming up, a lot of fear.

Probably because it's around the holidays and there's a lot of financial obligations that happen in terms of gift giving and doing extra things. And for me, in this place of being on a new track with spiritual coaching and not as lucrative or as established as I was in my old nine to five job, just feeling like uncomfortable in this kind of place of growth.

Nate (02:24.735)

I think having a conversation with Ashley before the podcast, was one of the things that we said, well, maybe we should talk about this. A lot of people probably experienced this. So Ashley, that was my long intro. do you think? Why don't we start talking about this whole idea and process?

Ashley Henderson (02:37.151)

Yeah.

Ashley Henderson (02:44.459)

Well, I had a lot of thoughts when you were starting to talk. One was remembering this conversation I had recently with my friend Tiffany, who does education consulting for people trying to get into prestigious schools. And she was calling it a cult of productivity. She was actually calling it a cult. This idea of sort of

joining unconsciously, buying into this idea of overdoing, overworking, over productivity to meet some arbitrary milestones of worthiness and success and how we just get sucked into that without conscious awareness. so that was one thought that came in.

Yeah, this is something I've been unraveling for the last year and a half and it is challenging. This productivity mindset goes really, really deep. It's so wrapped up in my own ego identity and sense of worthiness. so it's been really, really, really uncomfortable to slow down, really uncomfortable to not bring in the same.

money to not be working as much in the old way. But then shifting to much more presence, much more relaxation, much more mindful relating with myself and others, and then slowly over time shifting my

sort of value system around productivity. I think that's kind of what we're both working on. It's sort of the beliefs, the underlying belief system, because we both already took the plunge. We both have already left our old jobs. We're in this in between. And so it's like working with those under

Ashley Henderson (05:08.883)

lying belief systems around our own self-worth. And I think that's where we both are, various places, you know, of unraveling that. It is something that I notice a lot of people don't even question. It's just check the boxes every day to feel worthy or not. And you're in this constant seesaw of worthiness and that's

Nate (05:31.047)

you

Ashley Henderson (05:35.337)

That's just an unconscious program that a lot of people in my world are running. So, and I see the stress that comes with that. mean, the absolute stress that comes with even just the seesaw part, not to mention the overworking and the multitasking and all of that, but just even having this unconscious seesaw worthiness.

I'm good because I did these tasks. I'm bad because I didn't. And instead of how does this make me feel? How do I feel when I'm doing any of these things? Yeah.

Nate (06:15.309)

Yeah, definitely. Well, and I think before this is great, we've laid a very nice kind of conversation out here and now I'm going to take my analytical brain. I'm just going to caveat this whole conversation because one of the things you and I are doing in the in this podcast space is that we are trying to bring a kind of holistic, intentional, well thought out, well rounded conversation to spiritual.

to spiritual unraveling, into stepping onto the metaphysical pathway, the spiritual pathway, whatever, all the different things you can say. And one of the things that I find when I listen to a lot of content is that there is kind of, on our side of things, there can be this slippery slope about mainstream culture being inherently bad or people maybe

needing to be more spiritual or doing more spiritual oriented work. And I just wanna say before we get into anything, that is not my goal or intention. You and I have chosen that, but we have been like spiritual seekers for a long time. Like when we first met 20 years ago, we were talking about spiritual stuff. So for us, we're kind of on the extreme end. And I think what we're trying to do with this conversation is point out what you had just mentioned, which is,

The frame that people are living in needs to become obvious and apparent to them so that they can start working within it in a more safe and grounded way. So there's nothing wrong with having goals, with working hard and having aspirations. We need that kind of energy. That's how the world works. But being in a system of

certain amount of hour work week and hitting certain like outcome metrics and not having any awareness that those things are driving behaviors and actions and then having consequences that you don't have connected back to that system, that becomes a dangerous thing. And I think that's what we're talking about in terms of people kind of unconsciously in the American kind of grinder work culture in having a lot of

Nate (08:42.23)

physical, mental, and psychological illnesses or side effects because of that. So first and foremost, we're just trying to bring awareness to this. And we're not trying to tell anyone to leave their job and to go become a spiritual coach, right? And I'm not saying we are, I just wanna be very clear about that, because I do sometimes feel like in these conversation, that vibe gets out there a little and that's, it always kind of bothers me. like, that's not what we're talking about. It's like bringing more

presence and heart centeredness and awareness into your all aspects of you including a job that maybe isn't the most fulfilling but maybe the other parts of your life are really fulfilling and that's just kind of in what you was being called for you is to just Find all the little gems in that job in those moments and bring a little more life into that space So that was just one thing I wanted to say and then the other thing that I think

now that I've laid that out. The other thing that I think we could talk about too is just how deep the origins of this are and kind of why it's unconscious. I just, when you were talking initially about the setup, I was thinking about ideas like of cowboys, rugged individualism, and pull yourself up by your bootstraps, all these kinds of phrases that are deeply, deeply embedded in most Americans, at least definitely.

kind of dominant culture America, where it's like, this is stuff that's imparted to you from kind of day one of school, at the very least, and often many of us from our parents, because they were indoctrinated that way. So pulling this apart and just becoming aware of the insidious nature of some of these kind of implanted thoughts and ideas is really the first part of this work.

Ashley Henderson (10:37.297)

Yeah, I mean, I know I grew up with a lot of pressure to be productive and successful without any pointers or orientation to my well-being. We're not in that culture anymore. We have a lot more information about well-being. But the productivity, the pressure to be successful is higher than ever, I think.

Nate (11:04.115)

Yeah. And it takes on these different guises now too, which is also hard. Helicopter parenting becomes a pressure, like your friend getting kids into school becomes a pressure. There's these new weird pressures that are all around there. Social media presence pressure, like what's my IG look like, right? That's a pressure. There's all these weird...

Ashley Henderson (11:06.697)

except

Ashley Henderson (11:27.883)

Yeah, I was thinking about that too. Like how many likes do I have or am I famous enough? Or, you know, there's the pressure to be famous or the pressure to look a certain way or something like that. It's just, I think what you were saying is it's not about not being famous or not getting likes, you know, but it's being conscious and being aware of why are you doing what you're doing and what are the effects of

Nate (11:51.367)

Mm-hmm.

Ashley Henderson (11:57.363)

that belief system. You know, if I believe that if I earn a certain amount of money a year, I'm worthy, then I'm on this seesaw, I'm on this teeter totter. I'm not my sense of self is now riding on this outside thing that has nothing to do with presence. It has nothing to do with being. It has nothing to do with my connection to the now.

and what's happening. And I think that's what's creating a lot of stress and anxiety and depression in our culture. And it's the unawareness of it. So I think that's what we're just trying to point to. And really, mean, what we can speak to is the process of unraveling that,

Nate (12:37.499)

Yeah.

Ashley Henderson (12:53.449)

doing something different, of really listening to our inner guidance, which is really what it is for me. I don't have any ideas about being spiritual or not being spiritual. I think that's an interesting thing to bring up because I do think that spirituality can just adopt all of these ideas. And you know what I mean? You can feel pressure to be spiritual. You can feel like, am I spiritual enough can be.

Nate (13:20.665)

Mm-hmm.

Ashley Henderson (13:21.267)

a question connected to your sense of self and worthiness. don't necessarily have that. I luckily don't have that. I'm sort of grateful that I don't have that. But for me, it's like this terrifying thing of listening to your inner guidance. And where that's taken me is into the void of unraveling these ideas about myself.

And it's just really hard. It's just been, it's been really hard. I will say that it's been now a year and a half and I'm actually feeling much more relaxed in my, in my routine. I'm feeling much, I'm feeling more present than I've ever been in my life. And, and the true benefit of that is a more compassionate.

Nate (13:55.387)

I'll be something more than that. I'll be something more than that. I'll be something something more that. I'll more than I'll

Ashley Henderson (14:16.693)

perspective. I'm more compassionate with myself and I'm more compassionate with other people. mean, it's not about perfection and that kind of thing, or I don't have expectations about that. In fact, I'm just kind of noticing it, that I just have more compassion. So that's been the side effect of the positive side effect of this, but it's been really hard. There is a lot of self-doubt in it.

Nate (14:31.225)

Yeah.

Nate (14:36.921)

Thank

Nate (14:42.593)

Yeah. Well, I love that what we're talking about too is, you know, we, it's spiritual unraveling. We always come with our spiritual kind of lens, but this conversation is largely about a little bit more on the psychology side of things where, the spiritual tools are just tools that you and I have found to be incredibly helpful in becoming aware.

of this external idea about how life should be in seeing it from a kind of remove. So the spirituality for us has provided the avenue or the way in which we can see that through a mindfulness practice, through self-reflection, journaling, also having a different orientation on

why we think things happen or the forces underlying certain actions. So those things create a new frame for us to pull ourselves out of this. But I think that if you don't have those things, a sense of just curiosity and awareness in slowing down and really kind of, you can go at this with logic and.

and get there as well. It might be a little bit harder and it might be a little bumpier, but I think the awareness piece is such a big part of this because when we first, when you were talking about like the kind of celebrity culture and things like that, what we kind of have created through social media and through a dominant aspect of our culture, which is media and which is

celebrity kind of fandom. You know, I'm an introvert who doesn't even want a lot of friends, who doesn't want a lot of attention in social situations. And I could still feel in certain arenas where you're like, know, I would be happier if I had notoriety or fame or recognition. And that moment...

Nate (17:07.506)

Now for me is a moment where I can be like, whoa, whoa, pump the brakes, intro Nate. Like you really don't like any of that stuff. So where is it coming from? And that's this invitation with awareness and presence that we're talking about is really slowing down, asking some curious questions about that doesn't even really feel like me now that I think about it. And why would I think

a bunch of outcomes that are, you know, cortisol raising, parasympathetic, like knocking me off my scale. Why would I think any of those things would be happy outcomes? Well, that's because that wasn't, that's not really mine. For some people it is, and I think that's great. There's extroverts out there, there's people that love drama class, you know, in a lot of ways those people are set up really well in this society, but there's a lot of us who get this kind of urge

but it's not really connected to our essence. It's not really connected to who we are, what really gives us pleasure. And so that's the invitation here. then once you start getting curious about what is it that lights me up, then we're moving into this conversation I think you and I are really excited about having, is moving from that kind of productivity, outcome-oriented.

lifestyle to a reflective inward-facing lifestyle that says, who am I and what do I love? And then when you start answering those questions, then really honoring that and loving that about yourself. So moving into this place of deep acceptance and allowance, actually that is not reflective of what I want. This thing is, and it may not be,

celebrated by the culture. Right? I mean, in a lot of ways, what you and I are choosing to do isn't celebrated by the culture. And that's where the resistance comes in is making choices that are individual and unique to your own essence and that are coming from within, coming from your intuition, coming from your heart. And that the process of stepping onto that path is where the friction happens.

Nate (19:31.226)

I love it because you're a year and a half into like a real big shift. I'm probably a little bit more like a year in and we're at different places and we talk a lot about our different levels of comfort with being on the path. It's exciting, it feels good, many days, it feels very reinforcing, but there is gonna always be as you're walking down the path, the tendency to look over the shoulder and to see the road.

Right? You're on a trail out in the woods and you look back and you're like, well, there's the freeway and everybody's on it and they're moving pretty fast. So I don't know. think that's, that's the, that's the friction.

Ashley Henderson (20:09.173)

Literally.

Totally, I was going to say literally. Literally, I'm on the trail. Yeah, and one of the things that we were talking about when we were just chatting about this idea is valuing our self-care, valuing time in meditation or nature, seeing the actual value of that and how

those practices that bring me those practices that aren't shoulds. They don't fold into the shoulds. That's not what I'm talking about. That instead of, you know, grinding out of eight or nine day workday, you you grind out and spiritual practice. That's kind of not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about just these presence practices that bring you joy. The value of that and kind of connecting it to.

being a better mom or being a better friend or being able to respond differently in a moment with a stranger, to be able to offer a different kind of attitude in the world, maybe like a smile versus a scowl. Well, there's value in that. There's a lot of value in how we are being in the world.

We're just now kind of starting to value a little bit and I hope we'll grow because that stuff means a lot to me as a really sensitive person. If I see somebody smiling versus I see somebody scowling, that can really set the next hour of my life. I mean, I don't want to be too like, know, expose my fragility, but I'm pretty affected by.

Ashley Henderson (22:09.343)

I'm also an introvert. I'm pretty affected by the world. And so how I choose, you know, consciously choose to spend my time really affects how I operate and affect other people. And I really value that. I mean, I think on an intuitive, deep level, I know that that is a value of mine. And it always has been over this

identity of being a productive, successful person. I don't know that I've ever really valued it. It's not that I haven't gotten something out of that. I've really gotten a lot out of being a productive, successful person. And I'm grateful for the privilege that I've had in my life to be able to pursue the level of success and productivity that I've been able to have. There's so much in that, and I'm so grateful for it. But on a fundamental...

Me, Ashley, not judging anybody else on the planet, just me. What I know that I value isn't that. I don't actually care about it at all. Not even a little bit. And I was thinking about sort of this idea of taking a classroom full of kids. We have this one education model. And we have a classroom just full of completely diverse kids with different drives and motivations and talents.

Nate (23:25.121)

Yeah.

Ashley Henderson (23:33.429)

temperaments and orientations and ways of being and what the gifts that they're bringing. we just, we close it all off by saying there's one way, there's one way to learn and there's one way to be successful. And I think that what I observed as a therapist of adolescence for a very long time was how deeply, deeply that

rigidity, that mono whatever that word is, just keeping that really closed off just created this massive self-esteem crisis, this massive. Because if you fit into the model, if you're one of the three kids in the classroom that are good-looking, academically oriented, athletic, socially easy, likable, or whatever, then you're gold.

Nate (24:07.829)

Yeah.

Ashley Henderson (24:30.335)

You feel pretty good, you're sailing through. And the other 27 kids are struggling in some version, some variation. And so it's just not working because we internalize so much of that. I'm like, gosh. And then if you're me, you spend 30 years unraveling that in therapy and all this stuff to try to get back to like, what really matters to me?

Nate (24:43.817)

Yeah.

Ashley Henderson (24:59.243)

And I think that's what's starting to feel like it's coming online is this freedom to value what matters to me. And that's what real freedom feels like for me.

Nate (25:08.341)

Yeah.

Nate (25:15.356)

Yeah. Yeah. mean, just to come back to your, to your kind of interacting with people in the grocery store kind of idea. You know, what we're talking about here and like very realistic kind of brass tacks way is that if, if, the productivity mindset is so entrenched and all consuming, then, then going to the store and getting a coffee or doing whatever is a task and it's meant to be done.

and it's not meant to be enjoyed. And then the energy that that ripples out into the world is that the barista at the Starbucks in the grocery store isn't worth your time because you're just like, yeah, I want this, I want this, bye. And the checker is not worth your time because you're just trying to get through, you're trying to check it off your box so they don't get acknowledged. And so you have this whole ripple effect of kind of, you know, just low resonant energy.

that goes out and just imagine for a moment the difference if you take a breath before you order and you look the person in the eye and you say, how's it going today? And they say, it's going okay. okay, cool. I'd like this. Thank you. Completely different. Same thing with the checkered. Look him in the eye. Have a conversation. It's like, you know, we're talking about this stuff and it's...

It's not only going to put a better vibe out into the world, but also it's going to enrich your daily experiences in a way that you didn't even know was possible because you're opening up to all these different avenues that are going to happen because you're expansive. You're curious, you're slow, you're in the moment. When you're task oriented, by definition,

You're focused. And by definition, focus is like a narrowing of attention to a goal or an outcome. And there is nothing wrong with focus or drive. Let me just, again, reiterate this. You and I both see the value in having lots of drive and lots of focus in the appropriate situations and doses. What we're inviting people to do is, you

Nate (27:42.759)

don't let that be your baseline because at a baseline that is the wrong, that's like driving 60 miles per hour everywhere you go and that's completely inappropriate in a residential neighborhood. I guess I'm using car analogies now. Yeah, and it's just, it's so different and yes, I happen to have a very spiritual...

Perception of this stuff, but I also think that just at a very fundamental kind of psychological level your life will get Remarkably better if you just slow down all of these moments let them breathe a little and You know move into a Co a Co, you know, I always say like a co-creative dance that's too woo-woo for you. Just like a partnership with life

You know, that's really the invitation. It's very simple. Your energy and the energy all around you is wanting to interact. And there's something about the kind of outcome driven productivity culture, which is I want to only work my energy and I want to keep it so narrowly focused that it just is, it's linear and it goes in this one way and it's like, yeah, you know.

I guess that works. You know, it worked for us for 20 or 30 years, but at some point the facade starts chipping off. I think, you know, I think midlife crisis is in all of those things from the past are actually all symptoms of this kind of culture and lifestyle having an expiration date. Like it's just, it's not working for us anymore. And the exciting thing about where we are now,

is that there's more books being written about this. There's people in popular culture. There's people with platforms talking about this. And I think, you know, the invitation is to give yourself some permission to start exploring what it would be like for you to step on that path a little bit more. And I know, Go ahead, yeah, I mean, for me, and it's been...

Ashley Henderson (29:55.028)

Yeah, and

Nate (29:59.766)

It's been life changing. That's all I wanted to say. mean, unexpected, difficult, awkward at times, but ultimately much more joy-filled and enriching.

Ashley Henderson (30:13.963)

Yeah, I mean, I think it's really about stepping off of the expectation. we all are taking in these expectations from the culture. You know, for me, I also had it in my family. So it was a double whammy. Sometimes families are kind of telling their kids to slow down. It kind of doesn't matter. They're getting it from the culture. And so we're talking about

unraveling that, seeing through it, being coming conscious of that, and then really exploring what works for me, what's coming up that's bubbling up inside of me that wants to be expressed, that wants to be created, that wants to be moved, you know, and that's going to be different for everybody. So we're not saying everybody has to slow down and quit their job like what we're doing.

But that's what came through for us. we're in this, the spiritual part of this is just this commitment to listening, the commitment to listening to your own inner voice, to just what brings you joy, what makes you excited, what's passionate for you, and follow that. Just do the next right thing and keep listening and keep doing the next right thing. Well, that sounds really nice in theory. And what we're

Nate (31:17.603)

.

Ashley Henderson (31:38.507)

talking about today is like the challenge of doing it is one, letting go of the security of that ego identity of being productive and successful is, you that's sort of a safety net you have around you so that you feel like you can wrap yourself in a sense of worthiness so that you don't have to find out whether you're worth actually worthy or not. And what we're sort of

Nate (31:39.765)

.

Ashley Henderson (32:07.817)

trusting is this inherent worthiness. We're worthy just because we exist. And our time here gets to be about exploring our own intuitive life, our own intuitively led life, our own co-creation with life, our own passions, our own interests and joys. And there's work in that.

Nate (32:10.469)

Yeah.

you

Ashley Henderson (32:35.669)

There's plenty of work in that. You can't be a happy, well-rounded, productive, I mean, obviously productive, but a happy, well-rounded human being without some sense of productivity, without some sense of work. So we're not saying productivity is bad. I really believe that as a therapist, productivity was this key component of well-being.

And a lot of people had difficulty finding that of making, maybe sometimes taking risks to be uncomfortable. Because work is uncomfortable sometimes. So it's sort of like that. But we're working towards intuitively what we think is going to bring us.

joy and instead of these models or expectations that were given to us. And so that's what we're, that's what we're talking about. This, this like, it's like an inner, it's like a personal revolution. It's a, it's a personal rebellion. And, and I know a lot of people who are naturally busy, productive people who like to build and create big things and, know, they're doing big things, but that's their passion and that's their excitement.

Nate (33:36.795)

Okay.

Ashley Henderson (33:57.707)

I had this one guy, just like love him so much, come on my retreat, Scott, shout out to Scott. But, know, he was at the end of this one retreat was saying, gosh, what do I do with all this awakening? What do I do with all this love that I'm, you know, expect? And, you know, I was asking him about his job and he's like, no, I love my job. And he's this big important sales guy, you know, who has this

Nate (34:04.366)

.

Ashley Henderson (34:26.143)

Big important job. I'm sure he works really hard, but he has passion in there. You know, and that's really different than the person who, you know, I had another client one time who was this big important sales guy who, when I asked him, well, if you could just really do anything in the world, like there was no judgment, there was no, you didn't have to worry about money. He said, I would be a minstrel. He would go.

Nate (34:30.093)

Yeah.

Nate (34:49.851)

Wow.

Ashley Henderson (34:50.891)

singing songs for people. And I just thought, we're really far from sales guy, you know? So it's, but where's your passion? Where's the good feelings and the love and all of that, you know? So that's really what we're talking about. there's no one right way to do anything, you know? But what we're talking about is being sort of hijacked by the culture and unconsciously doing it. And I love

Nate (35:03.645)

No, right.

Nate (35:17.981)

Yeah.

Ashley Henderson (35:20.159)

this kind of mass awakening that's happening right now. And we're all figuring out if not that, then what? So I think that's what we're pointing to a little bit is like, maybe this, we'll let you know how it works out. So far so good.

Nate (35:30.524)

Yeah. Yeah, and I guess we'll go back a little bit to the things that have been helpful for us. And I would say one of the things that I think is really helpful is just being really curious initially about all of this stuff.

Like what drives me? what, you know, I was doing my kind of like nine to five jobs that I was doing before was really meaningful work. was actually kind of lined up with this already was doing animal assisted therapy with kids in group homes. And I had done that work for 15, 20 years, really loved it. But I still had this feeling like,

Okay, there's something else. And what do you do with that feeling when you're in kind of, for whatever person, you're in your kind of safe space, right? There's not a lot of friction, but there's something there. You're like, ooh, you know, I don't know what's going on, but this isn't landing the way it used to. And that's like, you know, that's the call. That's the call of the soul, which you were alluding to, which is,

You know, I think people talk a lot about what the meaning of life, there's all these kind of big ideas and big questions, but I really do believe that one of the most fundamental meanings of life is to explore the self, is for the self to know the self, is to really come back to your center and say, how do I want to get to know myself through exploration, through creation?

through interaction and we have this beautiful world that's like a buffet of every kind of thing you can possibly imagine. you know, those moments where we get an itch or a niggle or something's just kind of not landing, there's no sparks. I think that that is the nudge from the soul to say, you might be ready to do something different, to go down a different path. And I love this idea that there's

Nate (37:55.98)

There's the nudge, then there's the tap, and then there's the whack on the head, right? And for the goal for me is to listen to the nudges, maybe get pinched or slapped a little, but I definitely don't want the whack on the head, because that is an unpleasant experience when life has been trying to give you signals for a long time that, you know, this isn't really working for you anymore. yeah, that's like, that's that first initial part of it is just get curious.

if something isn't working or if you feel a yearning or an expansiveness when you do one thing and not another, that's really it. And I think that being paired with some silence or mindfulness or reflection, I really don't know how to uncouple those two things. I mean, I think you would have to be kind of a...

superhuman to be able to shut out this world because it is so compelling and so enticing and find space for that curiosity that awareness and that self-love I think that the reason so many people promote some kind of practice is that it is creating a space for the curiosity and the awareness and the reflection to happen because otherwise It's kind of like you're on a you're on that freeway. You're going you know

going 50 miles per hour, one direction, and there's no easy way to get out of that without something. what's amazing about what you're doing is silent retreat is like not just getting off the freeway, it's getting off the road, it's getting out of the car. It's like big, big break. Doesn't have to be that, but sometimes those things are really important.

kind of like signal breakers because it stops the flow of everything and it lets you really pull yourself out of the kind of, know, we always call it the matrix. I like calling it the matrix, but just like the way, the normal way, the kind of mainstream way. So yeah, I mean, I think curiosity about when you get the niggle, having some space to get to look into that. if in...

Nate (40:16.98)

Before that even happens, maybe consider flexing those muscles, those reflective muscles so that when you do get the niggle, you have a place to take it. I don't know.

Ashley Henderson (40:27.723)

Yeah. Well, all of that is terrifying. I think it happens to everybody all through our lives. We're always getting intuition. We're either listening to it or we're ignoring it. It's not a select few spiritual people. Everybody is always getting intuition. I would say that would be like if you're interested in, you know...

Like what we're saying, living a spirit led life, that's all it is, is listening to your intuition and really valuing it and having the courage to just take those steps. And then you start to feel differently. There is a different flow that happens in life when you're just jump off. We've talked about this jumping off one track and getting onto this track of listening deeply. And, you know, I was thinking about our conversation that we had.

about this and really it started, funnily enough, the conversation started with this idea of self-love and self-acceptance. And there's something here I just want to bring in as we're getting closer to the end that's really about this major shift in the belief of what we're doing here. A belief system in what are we actually doing.

doing here. We have such a short time actually on Earth and we get a little lost in some of these ideas about what we're doing here and what's important. And when you really pan out and look at how diverse our population is and just the diversity of each human being, know, that it's, you know, we're not all supposed to be

making a million dollars. We're not all supposed to be famous. We're not all supposed to be beautiful in the same way. We're not all supposed to be creating the same things. I mean, we're here with our unique gifts. And that that is, to me, a major shift in my belief system from what I was indoctrinated with as a kid to where I've arrived at, you know, the ripe age of 50 is that I really believe that

Ashley Henderson (42:44.019)

We're here to listen to our inner voices. Where that comes from, I don't know. That's the mystery. And we're here to risk really being ourselves in the world and trust that life will meet us when we do that in the perfect way. And it might be with a million dollars and it might not be with a million dollars. It might be being famous and it might not be.

That stuff is irrelevant to life. That's irrelevant to our path. It's really about this inner connection and this inner joy and this inner presence. And when you find that path and you find that track and you can let go more and more of needing anything to go any way outside, you really start to see this unfolding of your unique life and

what's getting created and how you're growing and what you're learning and what you're offering and how being yourself is the greatest joy of life. It's the greatest gift. I think that's the overarching belief system that you and I share that is allowing us to take this big leap of faith, that's allowing us to have the courage to unwind some of this stuff because it's deep in there.

It's really, really deep. spiritual awakening is such a beautiful worthwhile endeavor. And it's also challenging, really, really challenging on a psychological level to really unwind this stuff. So I wanted to make sure I said that big picture thing we were talking about yesterday.

Nate (44:25.221)

Yeah.

Nate (44:30.159)

Yeah.

Absolutely. Yeah, mean, the moving in out of dissonance into harmony with self, you know, in this idea that there's one right way to do things. We just know based on the variety of life that that can't possibly be true, that that's not meant for everybody. And I think the other thing that I wanted to hit before we wrap up that you had kind of mentioned

is that this is a feedback loop. So the more you pour yourself into and create space and validate and acknowledge intuition, heart centeredness, presence, all of these things that we've talked about, the stronger they get. And they have a lot of work to do because they're combating years and years and years of conditioning. So.

At first it can be a little disheartening, you, know, one of the nice things about what you're representing as someone who's been on this path a long time and is taking people through spiritual journeys is that when you commit to something, you're gonna see it's gonna start to build momentum. And the muscle, the intuitive muscle, that part of yourself, that soul song, it's gonna get louder.

And then it's going to feel less scary. And so that's the, I want to end on an optimistic note. The doubt that even I was talking about and that we're all going to face when we step off that well-worn path will eventually be replaced with a reinforcement and an assurance and a guidedness from up what I would argue is a much, much higher place, not culture.

Nate (46:28.532)

not something outside of yourself in terms of external validation, but an inner knowing, an inner satisfaction, an inner harmony that is, you're gonna be in communication with and it's gonna be much cleaner and easier to hear the more and more you develop it and the more and more you trust it and step into life.

Ashley Henderson (46:51.563)

Yeah, that's a beautiful place to stop, I think, because I think that's, it's just encouraging. It's what we both need to hear right now for what we're doing. And yeah, I really liked that. Thanks.

Nate (47:04.138)

Yeah.

Nate (47:09.996)

Okay, great. Well, we will see you all next time.