The Courage to Break Free

In this conversation, Ashley Henderson and Nate explore the complexities of grounding, healing, and emotional processing. They discuss how societal conditioning affects our ability to be present and process trauma, emphasizing the importance of readiness and neutrality in healing. The dialogue highlights the significance of somatic experiences and the need to embrace unwanted emotions as part of the healing journey. They also touch on the role of mindfulness and the necessity of reconnecting with our bodies and intuition to facilitate emotional release and transformation. In this conversation, Nate and Ashley explore the importance of listening to one's inner self and the evolving needs of the body and soul. They discuss the challenges of navigating fear and cultural conditioning, emphasizing the need for self-awareness and intuition. The dialogue delves into breaking free from self-imposed limitations and the significance of taking risks with a playful and curious mindset. They highlight the importance of embracing nuance and grace in personal growth, ultimately leading to a journey of self-acceptance and freedom.

Transcript

Ashley Henderson (00:03.966)

Okay, going with the flow.

Nate (00:10.097)

Take three.

Nate (00:19.687)

Okay, so I'm curious now about... about the...

reaction around the grounding, what came out.

Ashley Henderson (00:29.335)

Ashley Henderson (00:32.734)

think that my suspicion is that grounding is hard because we're so conditioned to be in survival mode and survival mode is kind of like

is a way of being distracted from the present moment, the fullness of the present moment. And...

and the real kind of both feed into this life. I think we're all, one of my clients articulated it yesterday really well. said, well, what are you afraid of? What are you afraid of if you show up in present time, fully accepting your life exactly as it is right now? She said, I'm afraid of the truckload of trauma that I'm going to have to experience.

and then we talked about how it doesn't show up all at once. You know, it kind of shows up exactly at the time that you can handle it for your, for your growth. It's very loving that truckload. It's, it's about reclamation of self. It's about wholeness. It's about healing and love really. You know? So I wonder about that. I wonder if it's just this kind of conditioned fear of

anything that isn't like pleasant or numbing or distracting, has a sense of fear around it and grounding. You know, I have this like theory now that grounding sort of automatically invites your stuff, that truckload, it, because there's a sense of almost like I'm here.

Nate (02:23.63)

Mm-hmm.

Ashley Henderson (02:24.576)

I'm here, you know, and then your stuff can be like, you're here. Okay, great. Exactly. Like, like, I got a backlog here, you know, so I think.

Nate (02:31.492)

Let's cut through some boxes.

Nate (02:37.559)

Yeah, but what's funny about that that you're, I think you're alluding to is the system has a built in check and balance. Like it doesn't want to overwhelm you. It wants attention and it wants you to attenuate and put some energy into yourself, but it won't overload you because you know, the human system, the human body, all of

our human spirit, all of us, we're all just a natural outbirth of, so we're just like nature basically. And systems in nature don't usually go that wonky, know? Balance and homeostasis is kind of like a core principle. And I think trauma work is probably, falls along that same line, you know? I mean, I think you could be guided or you could willpower yourself to like,

truckloading your trauma, but I don't think that your system is gonna do that to you. I think your brain or your ego would have to kind of like, I'm not a good person unless I process everything in, you know, one week or some crazy nonsense like that.

Ashley Henderson (03:53.966)

Well, right. I also feel like I have this in me and I've heard this a lot over the years with clients too. It's like, or just people, you know, they're waiting to feel ready. Like they're ready to process things or take them on. And there's something...

Ashley Henderson (04:16.608)

real about the readiness, but it isn't always what we think. I think readiness comes by bringing your attention into grounding or self-care or self-love. Even though those things don't seem like they have anything to do with trauma, you create readiness. And once you actually have readiness, then you're ready.

So I think when we're orienting from fear and we're orienting from the conditioning itself.

Nate (04:47.69)

Yeah.

Ashley Henderson (04:56.59)

the conditioning doesn't want to open it up because it's focuses on safety and protection. And so we can't really listen to that part of our, I guess that's what I'm saying. It's like, what parts are you listening to? And it does seem like there's this struggle around a leap of faith in going into a, know, even just real states of meditation, which is just letting go.

It's just the surrender, surrendered moments, surrendered minutes or whatever, or grounding, just anything you're doing that's.

not reinforcing the habits of the mind or the, you know, it's like we're learning how to listen to different parts of ourselves. We're learning to create readiness or we're learning to create sturdiness or capacity or, you know, even just the realization of.

your soul's path or your purpose or your journey here, whatever. Just being able to reflect on something other than your conditioning creates this container for healing. Because healing isn't something we do, since healing is something that we create a container for. And then healing happens on its own. And the mind doesn't really like that either, does it? The mind doesn't like that

Nate (06:24.594)

Yeah. Yeah.

No, no, because the mind wants to get in. Wants to get in on the healing. It's like, no, no, me get my hands in there. you're like, no, it's healing is kind of like, you know, it's like little kids when they grow. you know, you grow when you sleep. You don't grow. You can't like think you're growing and be like, I'm, you know, doing a lot of brain power here, so I must be growing. Yeah. And the other thing too, you know, when you were talking about why the trauma, one of the

Ashley Henderson (06:31.576)

I want to be in charge of

Nate (07:00.135)

things you were suspecting as you were saying that. also made me think that when we ground, we're getting into our body. And even though this is a spiritual show, you and I are both very much steeped in psychology. And I think of Bessel van der Kolk's work and how the body keeps the score. So we can be doing this.

meditation practice in someone like you who's got a foot in both these worlds, you're guiding people into this place and unbeknownst maybe to the people who are starting to ground themselves is, when I come back into my body, I have access to this lineage of good and bad, pain, trauma, also, you

all the kind of bodily sensations that we think about when we have joyful experiences as well. But it really is like a way to get you back into your body. And I think that is one of the major access points to starting to work with trauma and with pain and doing recovery kind of stuff. And so it's kind of weird. I could see how someone could do a meditation and not necessarily expect.

that to happen and then for it to happen and then to kind of be surprised and a little off kilter maybe. Just like, whoa, that's not what I thought was gonna come up. I thought I was doing a mindfulness practice. I thought I was connecting to Mother Earth and it's like, yes, you were. And when you came back into yourself and into your body, it's kind of, then it goes back to what you were just saying. Like then there's some stuff.

to maybe examine or look at or just acknowledge. I think when we talk about healing, what you were saying too, acknowledging something's existence is such a huge first step and there's a lot of the other stuff, it can kind of go on autopilot. You just have to acknowledge that something's happening in you and that you're kind of ready to look at it and work with it.

Ashley Henderson (09:24.814)

Totally, totally. That to me, and I don't know how you get to that place. As I was like, I think we all wind our way there in different paths maybe, but getting to that willingness, that readiness to, for example, if you have an unwanted emotion come up like shame.

There's just this automatic response to resist it, get rid of it. So how do you get to a place where you're like, shame is here? OK, so that's, I guess, would be step one is just notice it. Because there's so many unconscious, there's so much unconscious conditioning at work all the time in all of us. That's why this is an infinite process.

Because as we open to this more and more and more, we're just inviting more and more of our unconscious selves to become conscious so that we have more choice. We have more spaciousness. We have more peace. have freedom, all the things. But we can't force that stuff. But you keep creating a safe container for your unconscious stuff to arise. And then when it does, you're like, here it is. Fear, shame, anger, rage.

you know, helplessness, whatever. And then just being with it, just being willing to allow it to be here, just inviting it in even closer, recognizing that this is an aspect of you that needs your attention, that needs maybe an upgrade of information. It needs just to be held. It needs to be seen. But that

The process of it usually, the process of the transformation of our unconscious conditioning happens in the holding, but it happens on its own. I don't know how to explain how that works. I think the way that I was thinking about it yesterday, as we had a little bit of this discussion last night in my sangha, was like maybe what you were saying, like just the...

Ashley Henderson (11:47.852)

like the laws of nature is that things are always changing. They're always evolving. We're always transforming. And so if you really trust that, you can just hold steady with whatever you're experiencing. It will transform. And what I notice is the less I am trying to manage or control or get rid of or whatever, I actually, it sends me insights.

It wants to be moved. It wants to be understood. And so I do get insight about it.

Nate (12:22.614)

.

Ashley Henderson (12:27.906)

Yeah, mean, healing is a big part of spiritual awakening. It has to be.

Nate (12:33.285)

Yeah. Well, I think what happens like when you start a meditation practice, it's kind of weird. It's almost like it's reverse engineering the container. So you start the process, somehow someone says, hey, know, this is good. Now we have enough kind of built up in the culture to say, you know, our

Our mainstream society is like everyone's kind of acknowledges that it's Slightly toxic enough at a baseline that you should do something mentally to counteract that and I think that there's enough voices out there now that are pointing to meditation as one of the more robust and Accessible tools to be used and so you kind of get into that and you're thinking well, it's you know

I want to help my anxiety or I just want to de-stress or whatever. But unknowingly what you're doing is you're creating a container and opening up the space inside yourself to then start this inner work. Because before that, it becomes very difficult to look neutrally at those feelings when they come up. Like shame, shame is such a powerful emotion that almost had a

baseline, it's going to be something that's either rejected or squashed pretty quickly because most of us have felt that feeling at some point in our life and it's almost unbearable. So of course it gets shoved under the rug. But when you can move to a place of neutrality with thoughts in general, which is kind of what meditation does, then...

Shame comes up in everyday life or something or anger or one of these kind of more unacceptable quote unacceptable emotions. And instead of the knee jerk reaction, you now have a little, it's just kind of like any argument you would have with a person or a negative interaction. Instead of moving right into your trigger or your wound, you have a gap where you then get to say, I'm being triggered. I'm having a reaction. How do I want to deal with this? And that.

Nate (14:59.43)

is that gap in that space is the fundamental power of this kind of like mindfulness work. It's like it really gives you access to being able to then work with those energies. Otherwise, they often become kind of, it's kind of an automatic shutdown for a lot of people.

Ashley Henderson (15:22.296)

Totally, totally. I love that you brought in the word neutrality. I think that's the key. I think that's exactly the key that you're maybe in the meditation practice, you start to see that you can stay in a neutral place no matter what your mind is doing. You develop the muscle of neutrality. And, you know, it's not that, it's not that,

Nate (15:26.427)

Yeah.

Ashley Henderson (15:50.242)

I would say it's not that easy to develop partly because of our culture, partly because of our conditioning. just like, that can't be it. You know, that feels like boring or nothing or not productive or something like that. But once you kind of get it and you understand the energy of that neutrality and that spaciousness, that nothingness, that space around everything,

Then when you're triggered and you can see the trigger from that neutrality, you don't even need to do anything. It's the same thing that you're practicing in meditation, which is simply being with whatever's here, but from that place of neutrality. it's like when your kid falls and they're not that hurt, but there's the stunned and there's the

you know, kind of moment of expression and, you know, and if you stay neutral, you can just watch the emotions naturally move. Whether it takes one minute or 10 minutes or sometimes kids need, those are opportunities for kids to express for longer and move other emotions that have gotten stuck. That's true for us too.

Nate (16:53.007)

Yeah.

Nate (17:19.437)

yeah.

Ashley Henderson (17:20.11)

I notice sometimes if a book or a show or a video kind of evokes an emotion, sometimes I'm like, oh yeah, I'm like, I can feel other stuck experiences riding the wave of that emotion. It's like, ah, so good. But it's the same thing. can observe our own emotions. can observe our own triggers.

Nate (17:34.156)

Yeah.

Ashley Henderson (17:48.128)

and really hold them in neutrality, you will be shocked at how they move on their own and the depth of information that can come through. It's just, it's like a miracle. The first time that I really watched it happen, like I could witness it. And part of, I we all have the capacity to witness it. I think I'm fascinated by it. So I'm like tuned into that channel. I'm really.

interested in it, partly, you know, sort of done my whole life. So, but the first time I was able to witness it and experience it at the same time, I was just like, this is a miracle. This feels like a miracle. Miracles are the things that happen sort of outside of your control. Like you're just like, I did not make that happen. That just happened. Right. And it happened because I was present.

and neutral.

Nate (18:44.96)

Yeah. Well, and I think at this point it is, we're talking about it, but we haven't exactly made it explicit. but I wanna make it explicit. The reason that emotions and feelings that come up become problematic is when we don't let them do what they need to do, which is wash over you.

give you somatic information that then you process and you let go. And so we have been trained, at least it feels like Western culture has gotten us to a place where certain emotions or feelings are unacceptable. Therefore, when the processing begins, we squash it.

and then instead of the emotion moving through you, it gets stuck inside you. And so, I mean, it's kind of implicit in what we're talking about, but I think it should be, we should talk about that that is the main reason why you wanna be processing trauma is so that the stuff that got stuck or stuffed down inside you can be pulled up and just released. And it wants to be released. It's basically like a leaf on a.

stream or a cloud in the sky. What happened is like it came into our system, we grabbed hold of it and like stuffed it down below. We're like, dude, get out of here. What are you doing here? And then it sits inside your body in these weird places. You know, sometimes your stomach, sometimes your heart, sometimes your head, wherever, other parts of your body. And then it causes sort of all sorts of issues. And then

And also the other thing, the other flip side to this that I also want to make sure that we're clear on is that like we don't do meditation or create neutral containers to examine our feelings so that we don't have feelings like shame come up anymore because they're going to come up. We're humans. These things are going to happen. The point of this is to make our emotional

Nate (21:07.913)

processing system much more fluid and back again, we're talking about nature back into a homeostatic kind of place where it can come in, it can inform you, give you that kind of information it wants to give you and then you can thank it and release it and let it move out of your body. that, know, then we're moving and then I think when you start to do that, you're gonna realize that like health, anxiety, a whole bunch of stuff starts to fall into place in a much

different place. And I'm not saying that I've only experienced this fleetingly, but that process is quite powerful.

Ashley Henderson (21:46.606)

Totally. Totally. love that. I like that you brought in the somatic experiencing because that is such an important part of it. It's like that's the coming home. That's the welcoming it back in. That's the reclamation of self. The healing can only happen in the somatic experiencing of it, but you're holding that somatic experiencing from that place of neutrality, meaning

that you're not judging it. And this is such an important thing. Last night in our group, when we got to this part of the conversation, somebody said, it's so counterintuitive to move closer to these experiences. It's so counterintuitive. And I thought, I don't think it's counterintuitive. I think it's counter conditioning. It's counter because we learned at such a young age what's acceptable and what's not acceptable.

Nate (22:37.287)

Yeah.

Ashley Henderson (22:45.206)

And we just hold that in such an unconscious way. And we respond to these unacceptable things with resistance. so it's counter, it feels counterintuitive, but actually there's something really natural about expression. One of my friends sent me a video of her nine month old just shrieking with like,

She wrote me like, he's a wild animal. I'm like, he is a wild animal. He was like just shrieking with this like guttural noises that just came from nothing. I mean, he just was just, and as he was expressing this just guttural, I don't know if shrieking is even the right word. It was just came this like wild animal call. He heard it. And you can hear it. You can watch him on the video hearing his own

wild primal scream and he was so delighted by it. And then he just kept doing it. And then he's so delighted by it and he kept doing it, right? So in her house, in that moment, she didn't shut that down.

So he didn't receive a message, don't do that, which I'm sure like I've said to my kids many, many times, don't do that, you know, and shut down whatever and made things unacceptable and to live in society, some things are unacceptable, you know, and we have to like live together and cooperate and everything. But when we have that deep, deep, deep resistance to patterns in ourselves, I mean, what I think is...

Nate (24:07.781)

Yeah.

Ashley Henderson (24:29.29)

Eventually these patterns show up to the point where now we're suffering. We're suffering because of the patterns. And then we seek out therapy or meditation or somatic experiencing or some other therapeutic, you know, modality. And we're going for it. And, this is it. This is like, is no way out, but through.

Nate (24:55.096)

Yeah. Well, and also in addition to those things, and there's also just the whole plethora of other wildly acceptable social norms around drinking, medicating with pharmaceuticals, self-medicating off labels, pharmaceuticals, all those things, no judgment, just saying, those are all things that are part of that.

Ashley Henderson (24:56.15)

So I'm glad you said that.

Nate (25:22.595)

tamping down mechanism or the numbing or the shutting down the feedback loop that the body is trying to give you saying, hey, you know, we've held onto the shame a long time and we're, you know, it's getting a little crowded back here. You know, and when you were saying that about that young, your friend's young child, it makes me think, you know, a lot of my experiences with animals. And I think about both

prey animals like flight animals like sheep and horses and different things like that and then even predators too like cats and dogs and they all have this they all have a somatic reset that happens after an activating event and as humans we just we don't really we're a little disconnected from that and maybe it's because we're so cerebral but it's like if you see like two dogs getting a fight

and then they get pulled away, it's like they walk around and they kinda like, they just shake their body and they might eat some grass and they might pee on something and cats do that kind of big stretch shake. Horses and farm animals, they do a lot of lick-lipping and drinking water, all these different things, you just notice it and it's like maybe for us and what that little

your friend's little guy was doing is like, there needs to be some, maybe there needs to be some kind of somatic release, you know? And like, just a connection, a reminder that we're embodied and if we want to, it's the point of focus for where a lot of this stuff lives. it's so, that part is, I think, very confusing for people because so much of...

science and technology and civilization over the last 100, 200 years has been around the brain. Just like fascination with the brain and mentalism and there's something to that. But in a lot of ways, this is a much, much more kind of gross fundamental foundational thing. It's like, no, know, something bad happens and you know, it's why people often in like war zones end up like

Nate (27:46.762)

having sex and doing lots of somatic things to let loose. Like we almost died, let's do something to like feel alive, let's do something to connect. And I think there's probably a place for some titrated level of embodiment around a trauma or a trigger or whatever. And I'm not sure, know, I mean, think meditation is a great tool for that, but I also think

of it as a tool and it probably is like, you know, maybe a good primal screen for some people is just like, let's just bypass all of that and go right to get it out.

Ashley Henderson (28:28.238)

That's probably exactly what we need to do. We've, we've, have like let go. We've, we've, we've moved so far from the rituals that probably when we were closer to, uh, our, you know, bodies and, and the earth and nature and animals that we, probably had lots of rituals for that, that we don't have anymore.

You know, and people are kind of pulling them back in. can, you know, it made me think that like, you know, part of the beautiful, I mean, we started this conversation really talking about grounding, you know, really, and, and being in the body and, and, and being awake in the body being, finding that neutrality, that way of really listening, I think in the body, like, I think that the body and your intuition and your

your soul starts to direct you to what you need. So if you get a call to do something that you normally wouldn't do or go somewhere that you normally wouldn't go or there's different ways that we get directed to healing and situations and experiences and expressions that will give us these opportunities.

And I think instead of listening deeply to our own unique call of our own intuition, our own bodies, we often go to, OK, what should I do? What are all the things that I should be doing? I should be meditating every day. I should go into yoga. I should be fasting. I should be on this keto diet or that, whatever, vegan. mean, so we get so in our minds about, and there's nothing wrong with any of those things. Those are beautiful.

Nate (30:06.055)

Yeah.

Nate (30:16.509)

Great.

Ashley Henderson (30:23.926)

supportive things, but what does your soul need right now? What does your body need right now? And it's always going to change. It's always evolving. It's always moving. It's never fixed. Right?

Nate (30:37.456)

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, like if you use exercise as a, as a tool to do your reset, that's great. But if that's your only tool, that's limited. What happens when you get injured? What happens if you need a recovery day? You know, there's all these different things. I think this is why, you know, as a meta tool, meditation is important because what it does is it makes you more aware of

some of those subtle signals and energies. And I don't think you probably need to always be in meditation or doing that practice, but the beneficial aspect of it for people, at least initially kind of trying to recalibrate themselves, is that you will move into a place where those subtle signals have, like they have a voice.

They don't really have a voice if you have been kind of plugged into the system. And then maybe you can, if you get good at it, you can start using your own subtle signals and like you said, figure out day to day, what do I need? Maybe today it isn't this, it's going on a hike and maybe it's a cold punch and maybe it's all these other things, but you have to, you have to kind of be able to hear and access that.

guidance and that guidance unfortunately is just not nearly as loud as life or culture or social media or your brain or your ego for those it's a subtle it's a subtle thing and it requires that that bit of quietude and neutrality and checking in you know an acknowledgement that there is information coming through

and it's incumbent upon me if I want to utilize that signal to foster an environment or situation in which I'm going to be able to have access to it. And I don't think it's that complicated, there's an intentional piece around that.

Ashley Henderson (32:54.51)

I think I was actually thinking that this is, I think, really complicated for most people. Because leaving the conditioned mind is like, know, leaving the, you know, the safety, the illusion of safety, you know, and just listening to your intuition. I mean, that sounds like a crazy person. You know what I mean? I mean, think about how

Not like 100 years ago, how we were all trapped in these boxes, like even more so than we are today. So we're like freeing ourselves, but like there's still so much fear around really, being a sovereign being. Meaning, you know, a fully sovereign being means like I am just on my, I am.

Nate (33:45.656)

Mm-hmm.

Ashley Henderson (33:51.064)

I don't even know how to say it, because this stuff gets really tricky to talk about. I am following my own heart in everything that I do. And I'm really trusting my own intuition, my own path that's unfolding. And even if it takes me to scary places, or it takes me to new places, I can trust that it would never take me there.

to hurt me, would never take me. Like you start to just develop this deep trust in yourself where you can really honor that. life just becomes infinitely more exciting, more alive and calmer.

because there's not the clutter of the shoulds. In fact, quiet and space and peace is sort of required to hear the next right thing.

Nate (34:52.278)

Yes.

Ashley Henderson (34:53.058)

to be able to really hear and really listen. you kind of get like the meditative state becomes more normal, like your normal baseline state. Because because there's a feedback loop, there's such a positive feedback loop with being able to listen to that intuition. It becomes so much more compelling than anything else. So you want you want to be able to hear it. Would you say that's true?

Nate (35:04.865)

Yeah.

Nate (35:23.092)

Yeah, absolutely. And so I guess to clarify my statement, don't think it's the fear is the fear and the overriding that kind of cultural conditioning is the difficult part. the process itself is not is not difficult. But there is. Yes, yes. Yeah, which I think it also confounds our kind of monkey brains, too, because.

Ashley Henderson (35:40.43)

No, it's shockingly simple. And I think that's what the people are like, you can't be that. Yeah.

Yeah, totally.

Nate (35:50.421)

Then we because because then there's that whole subset of us and I'll put myself in there a lot of times in the self-help camp Which is just like let's make this harder or more complicated than it needs to be Yeah

Ashley Henderson (36:02.958)

Totally. Totally.

Nate (36:07.401)

Yeah, I think a lot of that is, you know, it makes sense because we're collective species and the kind of cultural, the culture at large right now, the kind of game is exclusion. And so if you don't fit in, if you don't look a certain way, if you don't act a certain way, there's this kind of underlying threat of ostracizing.

And sometimes it's not even underlying, sometimes it's just overt, you know? But it's that, and so that's the belief that underpins all of this. And if you start to acknowledge that that belief is controlling vast aspects of your life, and you just start to question it a little bit, it just loosens things up. You're not gonna get rid of it all at once, but it sure as heck can make...

some limiting kind of situations, it can just make them feel kind of silly where you're like, why am I doing that? I think of just the idea that how many of us are comfortable with the idea of saying something like, well, what would they say? Or the idea of a collective they living inside your brain. That is so insane. There's some jury.

or collective of judgmental jerks constantly looking at you and that is just, it's wild. It's wild how much of that has a detrimental effect on your life and how much of that is working like kind of 24-7 or at least when you're awake to just control you or limit your options.

Ashley Henderson (38:03.192)

Totally. It's like these little prisons that we live in. And we don't always know. I think it's just wild how we could be living in these little prisons and not even know we're in prison.

because you're just so used to living with those limitations. But man, when you realize you're in prison, you want to get out. That's the beautiful process of seeing through our own ways that we imprison ourselves, our own psychic judgments and ways we limit. And I say it, prison sounds really

prison sounds really like negative, like I'm saying it's negative. And it does feel, it does create suffering, these things, but they're also, prison is also...

Prison is also safe. You don't know what's outside. You don't have to explore what's outside of the prison. You don't have to navigate the unknown. You can stay nice in your suffering, in your prison of suffering. But at least it's known. It's familiar. And so I think when we get to that place where we're finally ready to move out of our comfort zones of suffering,

Nate (39:03.877)

Yes.

Ashley Henderson (39:30.062)

and open that door, you we have the key. It's like takes a lot of work. There's like real, you know, you have to get to a point where you feel you can see the prison walls enough. You can see the door. You can see the key, you know, and then you can make the conscious decision to to leave what you've known, leave the familiar. That familiar place of limitation and explore into the unknown. And, know, you're risking everything you said.

You're risking being rejected. You're risking making people uncomfortable. You're risking being, you know, relationships ending. You know, you're risking change. You're risking, you know, our deepest fears are maybe like, you know.

Nate (40:17.999)

.

Ashley Henderson (40:22.807)

rejection and death or annihilation or something. don't know what, what we think is going to happen, but.

Nate (40:33.101)

Yeah, social rejection somehow it triggers like a limbic response because the reality testing on that in this day and age is that it's very easy to find a new tribe of people who hold your belief systems like now more than ever, especially with the internet. You know, you could think when you were actually in a tribe, getting ostracized was a big deal.

but this is part of our evolution as a species. We are no longer like that and we have access to all these other people who can support us and who can reinforce this way that we're trying to like get out of a certain type of thinking. But it does require a leap of faith and a little bit of bravery. And I think your prison analogy is spot on because, know, we...

We know this from psychology and from sociology that total institutions like prison, like the military, like certain kind of really intense boarding schools, like they create conformity and they indoctrinate you and you can offload so much kind of mental baggage into that institution or system, but you give up a lot of freedom. And then you can see it with actual

people who get released from prison where it's like life on the outside might not be all that they thought it was or that, you know, it's going to require a huge paradigm shift for them. And I think that the same way, what we're talking about is that's part of the fright is the paradigm shift. like, it's going to, you know, and it requires a level of engagement and accountability to kind of

check in with yourself as much as possible. But then you can mix in that playfulness that we've talked about, the curiosity, the neutrality, the neutrality first and then even curiosity about like, ooh, why are these things showing up? And then, you know, then you're renegotiating your relationship with the new you, which is a really powerful place to be.

Ashley Henderson (42:53.794)

Yeah, yeah. I love that you just brought in like lighten up all of a sudden. was like, yeah, it's actually could be pretty simple to like explore the unknown. If you, if you bring that lighthearted curiosity in, cause what I was thinking right before you said that was, gosh, it requires this leap of faith, but it, was kind of lingering in my mind, like leap of faith, like, like, there was a heaviness to it. And, and, know, it could be that it could be that it could feel that way. And, and maybe

Nate (43:01.075)

Yeah.

Ashley Henderson (43:23.48)

Taking that leap of faith, if it feels heavy, requires like courage. And so it's bringing something online, some kind of strength or courage or belief that feels maybe a little heavier. But like, that's also cool. Like if you can get in touch with that, but the lightheartedness is also, I mean, if that's accessible, that is the key. Cause, cause things can move quicker and we can see through things a lot easier when we bring that lighthearted curiosity in, I think.

It's just not always available. You know, it's just not always available, but...

Nate (43:58.334)

Well, it's the frame, right? It's the perspective. How are you choosing to look at? mean, when you were saying that the leap of faith, I thought of this summer we up to Lake George and we were on the lake and we had the kids with us and the person who driving us around was like, there's some cliffs that people like to jump off. And I was like, take me, please. I love all that stuff. So I'm super excited.

my daughter who's 12 and our best friend's daughter who's 12, they both were like, can we go with you? And I was like, yeah, yeah, let's do it. So we like swim off the boat and we climb onto this island and we're getting up to the cliffs. And of course then like immediately gets very clinchy. They look down, they're like, I don't know if I wanna do that. And to stick with this leap of faith analogy,

In that moment, I was like, well, why don't we go down to a lower level of the cliff? Okay, you don't have to jump off the 12 foot cliff. You can go down to an eight foot. And then if that doesn't work, there's actually a four foot little rock just above the water. And so, you know, we kind of that idea of bringing the playfulness to us because the flip side of like jumping off of something and kind of like, I don't know what's gonna happen. It's like, well,

I don't know what's going to happen. It's going to be exhilarating and fun. And then you're at the 12 foot cliff, you're getting good at jumping off cliffs and you're like, I'm going start doing flips. I'm going start doing these things and let's get a rope swing up here. That's like, that's how playful you can get when you start to kind of just look at these things a little bit different.

Ashley Henderson (45:49.72)

Yeah. Yeah. I think there's like a probably haven't thought about this before, but there's probably a dance with that. Like you do have to take some big leaps of faith. think there are these choice points that do require courage, but then eventually you realize, gosh, that wasn't that bad. Maybe I felt this emotion and I cried and I experienced that kind of old fear or old shame, but

But I got through it, and there was some part of me that accepted it. And now I feel lighter, and now I feel open, and now I feel kind of curious. Like, well, what is that? Or what happened there? And maybe the next time a heavy emotion comes in, you're just a little bit more trusting. You're a little bit lighter. It's a little easier to sort of allow and not resist. And maybe you get a little f****.

You know, maybe you resist first and then you notice, gosh, I was resisting. Let me see what I can do. And you know, it just, it's like anything you really. So there's like the openhearted playfulness curiosity piece can come in through the lived experience. Lived experience that nothing bad happens. That's what I always, you know, realize.

in anything that I'm afraid of, anything that I'm, risk that I've taken. It's like, well, nothing bad happened. Even if something bad did happen, it's like, it's like, well, that there was so much in that for me, you know? So, but yeah, I like that, like that relationship between the leap of faith and like the more playful, openhearted curiosity piece, you know?

Nate (47:40.93)

Yeah, and then I think it's also just important to recognize in ourselves that the areas and aspects of our lives, the ability and the bandwidth for doing Leaps of Fates are going to be different. So don't look at this process as a of a monolith. It's varied, you know?

if you are someone who experiences great quality relationships, then your bandwidth and your ability to take risks and to really put your needs out there as it comes to relational things is gonna be much, much bigger than say if your biggest area of constriction is around

finances around independence with like jobs or something that's like well then that place maybe the risk is really just like looking at the scary thing and sitting with it. It's like you're not trying to jump off this thing you're just looking at it. So it's to have like I guess what I'm bringing in is the nuance and the gentleness and the grace that you are this kind of you know we're this amorphous work in progress in certain parts of our lives.

And we know just through self inventory and self reflection and even just looking at your life, some parts of our life are much more successful and robust than others. Other areas are like where we have our biggest growth and that's those are the areas I just think where we want to call in the grace, call in the gentleness. Like this is the baby step zone, right?

Ashley Henderson (49:31.598)

Totally. I love how you always bring that in, Nate. I really, really do. think, you know, there's a way that I know for me, I mean, I know I have really high expectations for myself. I can get really like, and I like that. I like there's an element that I really like about myself because it does. I do have like courage and I do persist and I have determination and I

You know, I have a good work ethic. I can work hard. But man, without that gentle piece, without giving yourself room for grace and understanding and just taking some of that pressure off, you know, I like how you always bring in those reminders for people as they're going through this because it is often what shows up.

for people is this just insane, insane judgment. And I feel like I've said this on this podcast so many times, but if you just did a practice of looking at your own judgment, you would just be so surprised at how ingrained it is in your own psyche and how it's keeping you from your own freedom. Because the truth of who you are

has no limitations. The truth of who you are does not have, you know, that primal scream from that baby is exactly what that baby needed. You know, his true essence did not judge that. He doesn't know yet to judge that, you know, but if he did it in the middle of Target, she'd probably be like, maybe not, right? And then he'd be like, that's bad. So, but we...

You know, we're kind of coming back home to a place of deep, deep self-acceptance and self-love.

Ashley Henderson (51:37.87)

And I think if we don't become aware of our own prisons, of our own judgment, of our own limitations, we can't ever get out. It will always be like, oh, that's for somebody else. Freedom is for somebody else. Peace is for somebody else. Abundance is for somebody else. True love is for somebody else. Whatever our theme is, whatever we're looking for.

Nate (52:07.624)

Well, thank you for saying that. I bring it in because my inner critic always needs to be reminded of that. I think, yeah, I definitely agree. I feel like judgment has been.

like the biggest theme or thing that I have been working with. I mean, God, it feels like 18 months minimum, maybe two years, whereas just like you said, when it came up in a way where I actually saw it and started to kind of work with it, I was like, holy cow, this thing is everywhere. And how it is a fundamental spoke or aspect of

tons and tons of limiting beliefs. That judgment piece, it's kind of like the tip of the spear. It's the thing that pierces you, And the counter to that, the important, bigger part of that is recognizing, is really, really getting macro, and far, and far, and far back, and just be like, there isn't judgment. That does not exist. It's like human construction.

It serves a purpose, you know, we do live in a society, there are rules, you know, we want people to stop at stoplights, there's things that are important that come from that whole kind of mental system. But, on a very big macro universe, galaxy, whatever soul level, it's just a whole lot of all that is, and there's no judgment.

It's just experiences. It's just growth. It's experience. It's different things banging into other things. And although that's like kind of a weird big thought, I just like to think about it as a way to just take the steam a little bit out of judgment. know, judgment's really up. I just just get really big and think about yourself as a self-aware monkey on a rock in the middle of the galaxy. Like, okay.

Nate (54:24.348)

So have a little perspective here, look up at the stars and be like, all right, this is probably a silly thing to get all worked up about.

Ashley Henderson (54:32.622)

Yeah, I love that. I think that so much of, for me, all the psychological work that I did was so important, so critical. But without this larger picture that you just described so beautifully, I don't know that I could have really freed myself. I think I would just create nicer and nicer prisons.

more pleasant prisons, but the idea of really being free, I could only ever have begun to unlock the prison doors and really go out into the mystery, into the unknown with only my truth, only my intuition, only my own heart, with this bigger perspective of acceptance, deep, deep acceptance.

and is-ness, you know? And then there's just this perpetual, that's where the healing comes in because from that point of view, I can then see the places that I'm still in prison, which will just be probably for the rest of my life. just, you know, which is actually kind of fun to me. I think it's fascinating. I mean, this is the body that I'm living in. This is the identity that I was born into. This is the life, the one life that I have.

in this consciousness to work with, you know? So healing becomes the name of the game. It's like exciting.

Nate (56:09.334)

Yeah, well I think that's the key. If you can work everything around to get to that excited or curious or even neutral, as we talked about earlier, any of those kind of perspectives, as when it comes to this kind of work, then you're in such a good place. It just opens things up.

Nate (56:41.175)

Cool.