Your Career Journey
Welcome to ‘Your Career Journey,’ the podcast designed to be your compass through the twists and turns of career development.
Whether you're a seasoned professional navigating a career transition, climbing the corporate ladder, looking to return to work after some time away, or just taking your first steps, this show is for you.
Each episode dives into real stories from people who have made their mark. We cover career challenges, triumphs, and everything in between, offering practical insights, inspiration and giving you valuable takeaways for your journey.
Expect candid conversations with industry experts and thought leaders who've embraced the highs, weathered the lows and emerged with wisdom worth sharing.
Join me and let’s explore the multifaceted landscapes of career development, learning, and growth together.
Your Career Journey
🎯 Turning Global Experience Into Career Success | Returning Home with Margot Andersen
Are you wondering how to turn your global career experience into a powerful advantage after returning home? You're not alone — and this episode will show you exactly how to navigate this life and career transition with confidence.
In this episode, I sit down with Margot Andersen, leadership strategist, founder of TalentInsight Australia, and InSync Network Group.
Margot shares her extraordinary career path from rural Queensland to London’s bustling business scene — and the emotional, professional, and strategic challenges she faced coming home to Australia.
We dive deep into:
✨ How to leverage your international experience when returning home
✨ Overcoming hidden career hurdles for expats
✨ How to position yourself for the local job market
✨ Managing emotional and financial transitions
✨ The critical role of shared experiences and community
✨ Networking smarter — not harder — after a global career
✨ Why strategic career positioning is your secret weapon
If you're a returning expat, planning a global move, or feeling stuck in your career, this is a must-listen episode full of actionable insights and inspiring real-world advice.
⏰ Episode Breakdown:
⏳ 00:00 Introduction & Welcome
⏳ 00:09 Early Career Journey
⏳ 01:36 Moving to London & Career Shift
⏳ 05:59 Returning to Australia Challenges
⏳ 09:33 Building New Ventures
⏳ 12:24 Career Advice for Returning Expats
⏳ 23:54 Smart Career Positioning Techniques
⏳ 24:47 Storytelling & Context in Your Resume
⏳ 27:19 Emotional Side of Coming Home
⏳ 29:41 Navigating Recruiters & Career Gaps
⏳ 34:41 Managing Emotional and Financial Shifts
⏳ 38:10 Power of Networking and Shared Experience
⏳ 40:29 Final Career Advice and Life Lessons
🌟 About Margot Andersen:
🔗 LinkedIn:
I'm Emma Graham, Career Coach, ex-recruiter, here to help you:
💡 Gain clarity on what’s important to you
💡 Confidently communicate your value
💡 Build a personal brand and a strong network
💡 Take a strategic approach to your next move
💡 Navigate the job market effectively
💡 Build career confidence with a repeatable success blueprint
🌐 Explore my coaching programs and free resources:
Website: https://www.egconsulting.au/
LinkedIn: https://au.linkedin.com/in/emmajgraham
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/emmagrahamcareercoach/
🎁 Free Resources:
📄 CV Development Guide: https://www.egconsulting.au/cv-advice
📄 LinkedIn Profile Optimisation Guide: https://www.egconsulting.au/linkedin-profile-guide
📅 Book Your FREE Career Strategy Discovery Call:
https://calendly.com/emmagrahamconsulting/discovery-call
Hello and welcome to Your Career Journey, the podcast designed to be your compass through the twists and turns of career development. In this episode, I'm joined by Margot Anderson, a leadership development consultant and the founder of Insync Network Group, a career advisory and professional network supporting Australian expats. Join us as we discuss how expats can set themselves up for success when coming home. I am joined today by Margot. Margot Anderson, welcome. Thanks Emma, it's great to be joining you today. Thank you. So you have built your career in the sort of leadership, organisational development space and in recent times been working a lot supporting expats. And before we get on to all of that, which I'm absolutely fascinated to talk to you about, in terms of your own career, where did that start? How did you sort of start on the path to that space?
Margot Andersen:Wind the clock back, right? The memory clock. Yeah. Look, like many people, where I started and where I am today is quite different. So I commenced my career as a teacher. I very nearly pursued a path in journalism, but I'd always had this desire to be a teacher. So I actually changed course and went back to that desire pretty quickly. And so I trained as a primary school teacher. I was Queensland trained. So for me, that meant when I graduated that I went onto a rotation system or a placement system. So Queensland's a very big state. So you can be transferred anywhere and I commenced my career in a small regional town with a population of about 500 so that was really interesting and had a couple of year levels and I had three moves with Queensland Ed I yeah I did three lots of two years where that took me to a couple of different places ending up in a place called Toowoomba which is just west of Brisbane And I loved my career as a teacher. I didn't think I'd ever change, which is always really interesting. But what happened is I got to a point where I was like there was an opportunity to go overseas. And as a teacher, you know, I was really fortunate because I could travel and pretty much use my qualification in many parts of the world. So I went to London thinking I would go for nine months. And like many expats, found myself there still many, many years later. And And I'd changed careers. And I thought I'd only be there another year. I was there on a working holiday visa. So I thought, you know what, I'm going to just try something different. And I happened to have that conversation with my recruiter. And they said, would you come and work for us? So basically I ended up in the world of education recruitment and resourcing, which was really interesting because in the UK, you know, people from Canada, New Zealand, Australia, South Africa, all had reciprocal rights at the time to come to this really big recruitment drive. So I saw that sort of global recruitment piece happening there and then decided, okay, I really don't want to stay. Sorry, I really don't want to leave. I want to stay, but was really sort of restricted by this visa issue and I met with a company who said well we're actually buying education firms and we have also have recruitment we also have you know other parts of resourcing and strategy and projects come and work for us and I really didn't quite know what I was saying yes to I just knew that I wanted to be in the UK so I said yes and I mean I think they were like do you want a visa I was like yes they were like will you work yes Yes. And so then we just worked it out from there. But I very much fell into the world of operations. And so they were acquiring and integrating companies. And I took over a division that was, I would say, at best broken. And so it was a matter of really looking at it, pulling it apart, putting together a strategy, building a team, and then really just going and executing the plan. And so it was sales operations. So it was a really good role for me in terms of learning the commercials and having some good people leadership exposure and part of being in a big company is you get great exposure to lots of training and development etc but what was really lovely is that I was still using my knowledge of education and teaching so I could relate to clients I could relate to regional operating models you know or regional operations of education head offices etc so there was a link there that carried me through had a wonderful time working incredibly hard worked hard play hard you know that that certain phase of your career and life and
Emma Graham:London's a good place to
Margot Andersen:do that yeah yeah yeah absolutely so and it still you know fed my love of travel and I mean it was just the most extraordinary experience it was I loved it I loved every minute of it but I got to a juncture where I Looking back, I would say I was burnt out. I wouldn't have said that at the time, but I just knew and recognised that I needed a break. And I thought, I actually think I want my life in Australia. I was being offered a regional role at the time. And I was like, oh my gosh, for this to work for me and for the organisation, I probably need to give it another three or four years here. And so I got to a point where I thought, right role, wrong place, wrong country. And so it was my decision to leave. It was my decision around when I left and the timing of that. It was really important for me to go out on a high when I felt things had been put back together and we'd had some really great wins. I knew that I was ready for the next step or the next role in my career. But as I said, I just felt that I needed to make a call on where that was going to happen. So I returned to Australia and I came to Melbourne, which is not where I'm from. So in some ways, I kind of thought, oh, look, the adventure continues a little bit. You know, I'm coming to somewhere new. But that's where I think I would say that I really had that first real critical juncture in my career. It was incredibly difficult. And part part of that was very underestimated by me so I hadn't really done the thinking and the work around what it might take to do that I think I was very much like ah I'm coming back to Australia I've lived there before how hard can it be I'll get this stuff work you know sorted I transitioned from one career to another or one industry to another how hard can it be and landed back here and just went oh my gosh this is going to be so much harder than I thought and in a sense I felt like I had to start my career again, which was very confronting. Yeah, I had given a window of return to the UK. So they said to me, look, I was, you know, not so much the regional role will remain open, but we'd love to keep talking to you if you decide to come back. Why don't you take a sabbatical? And I was like, way too young for a sabbatical. That doesn't make any sense at all. They were trying all the tricks though,
Emma Graham:weren't they? They obviously wanted to keep
Margot Andersen:you. And I think like many people for that first year or so at home, your networks are stronger where you are. It feels like it would be easier to go back to. It was hard being home. It wasn't anywhere near the level or the, I think the exposure and diversity and complexity that I'd been used to. But deep inside, I knew I wanted to be in Australia. So I felt like, right, roll up your sleeves and get cracking and start to look at this again. So I joined a firm that was recruitment and HR consulting. So it's still in that space of talent and talent management and resourcing. And so started with that. And I was fortunate I was working for somebody who had been an expat before. So he was a little bit like, I've got no idea what to do with you, but I like your background, come and join when which was really interesting after you know really having a lot of difficult conversations about where do you fit and somebody sort of went oh you've got interest you've got an interesting background now I like it you know so I
Emma Graham:think that
Margot Andersen:that
Emma Graham:shared experience piece yeah becomes so critical yeah exactly what you say someone that just kind of looks at you and gets it and kind of thinks, well, I don't necessarily know where to put you, but I know I want you somewhere.
Margot Andersen:Yeah. And, you know, there's a sense of, oh, they can join the dots, you know. I'm not hustling for my worth, you know, the whole time. Although when I started, I was, you know, really, I really did go back to base on many levels. But that was okay because I was aligned with my inner sense of being where I wanted to be. So that was really good. And then since then, I mean, I've been back some time now So I've been, I actually worked for him in another sort of iteration of my career where when he'd sold the business, you know, we had some time looking at sort of, you know, new business opportunities and stripping them back. And then I sort of went into the world of probably more traditional HR consulting. And then I sort of worked out that I'm not really HR. I'm really that bridge between HR and operations. And I'm probably more operations, but, you know, with good people and good mix and building teams. And so today I have two businesses, one being Talent Insight, which is that workforce strategy piece and the leadership development. So I put my teaching hat back on in many occasions and run training, lots of training programs and executive coaching, working with leaders who are really going through change and needing to bring their people with them. And I have a business called Insync, which is really, again, another nice thread to my background and that is I work with Australian expats who are navigating the return to Australia and looking to rebuild their professional network here or looking to put together a real strategy around their career management of moving careers and bringing that home and I would say that that was an accidental business it started as a network group because I simply just kept meeting people and I didn't have time to have that many coffees if I'm really honest yeah yeah so I thought Well, look, let's start a network. And being Melbourne based, lockdowns were pretty cruel to us. So we had two years where we couldn't run events. And so I, like you, started a podcast and that put us on the radar overseas. And that's where the drive for the career development piece came or the career strategy piece really came from. So I'm very proud of that business and I'm very probably emotionally invested in it. But also I just, you know, I just think it makes sense that you've got to surround yourself with like-minded people and you've got to the tools and the resources and the tips you know to navigate a transition like that so you know if I think about my career it's really been around personally navigating transition and change and I think the work that I do is around supporting others navigate that that transition and change journey as well
Emma Graham:and also as you said I was thinking about it when you were talking about starting as a teacher that that educational thread that just kind of goes all the way through which is it's also really lovely one of the things I really love about about these conversations that sometimes it's often the way actually that things aren't clear in in forward motion they're they're often clear in hindsight when you can actually kind of join the dots and see actually all of this is very interrelated
Margot Andersen:yeah and they're foundational aren't they often yeah you know so you mightn't hold the title like you used to in that domain but you bring the knowledge and the skills and things with you so yeah yeah
Emma Graham:and And I'd imagine having been through your own expat experience and having found that quite confronting in terms of how do I actually do this? Again, to my earlier point of shared experience, you kind of understand what people are going through there. Why do you think it's so hard? I appreciate that's a very simple question for what is a complex thing, but why do you think it is that way?
Margot Andersen:Well, I think it's a couple of things. I think You know, when you're an expat, you don't just move a career. You don't just change jobs. You move lives and careers at the same time. And so we change. We personally change and evolve a lot as well as our skill set and our roles and things that we do. So there's a bit of a dual change process that goes on there. And for many of us who've been expats, we've kind of landed in a market that's bigger and more dynamic and more complex and you know there's it's fast paced and it's moving really quickly and evolving and changing really quickly and so I think you feel like you kind of get swept up in this you know wave of motion and forward momentum and when you come back to Australia it's a significantly smaller market. And so it doesn't feel like there's that wave of momentum behind you. And if you've been gone for a significant period of time, you know, your networks, whilst they're still really valuable to you, they've done different things as well. And so there's almost, we're out of step with each other in terms. And so we need to kind of reestablish that relationship. We need to reestablish our knowledge and our networks. our understanding of the local market. You know, one of the things that I get really frustrated with is when expats are told, oh, where's your Australian experience? Oh, you've been out of the market. Well, actually they haven't been out of the market often. They've just been out of the local market, right? It doesn't mean it's irrelevant, but I think it's really around how do I, I'm not visible here, so how do I build visibility and relevance? And so that takes time. And, you know, one of the things that I would say about managing transition and Managing Significant Change is many of us underestimate the time, the energy. the financial wherewithal sometimes that's involved with that. And that's even when it's good. I think about when I went to London, as much as I loved it that first year, you were just trying to work out the city, you're trying to work out how it worked and how everything works socially as well as professionally. And it was great, but it takes time and it took energy. And I think one of the reasons I stayed on for my second year is like, I've just done all the hard work. I want to stay here and reap some of the rewards. And it's It's no different when you come back. So there's that whole piece around, okay, I've got to get work out how to get back in step, you know, with the market and with the opportunities. And I also think with what I want to do. So depending on when you return, and because I work now with so many expats, you know, I work with people who went when they were 20 and accidentally stayed and they're coming home at 32. But their career
Emma Graham:has
Margot Andersen:been very different if you, you know, have been away and you're coming back and you're 52 because you're at a different age and stage of life. And so you've got to work out, well, what is it that I want from my career or what role do I want work to play in my life? Because for some of you, us we return and go I'm in a really expensive phase of life I need a full-time job I need to work you know I want to pursue and grow my career in this lane in Australia for others they're coming back and they're saying well actually I understand that the work I've been doing overseas may not exist for me in abundance or may not exist for me so I want to do something different and so then there's that piece around well we need to get really clear about what does Yeah. Yeah. I wonder
Emma Graham:as well if because it is, you know, such a big move home that often the logistics of the move kind of take
Margot Andersen:place.
Emma Graham:priority over the career and and that's the bit that people focus on so often they arrive and you know and then spend perhaps another month six weeks two months finding somewhere to live and doing all of that you know obviously very important stuff and then at the end of that kind of go right I'm ready to look for a job now absolutely there's a bit of a shock of like Ah, this isn't going to be as easy as I think it's going to be. I've seen that
Margot Andersen:happen
Emma Graham:quite
Margot Andersen:a few times. You're so right, Emma. I think, you know, typically if I think about how and when people engage with our network, they're often engaging either 12 months out because they know they either want to come home with a role or to a role or they want to come home with confidence in the market. So they're aware that they need to do some work and they can do that before they get home. And others are like, I'm in such a big job. I have no Yes, yeah. or desire that you have. And that takes time. So we then often pick up people at that three-month mark post-return or six-month mark post-return because they've sorted the logistics. They've got their selves home. They've got the pets home. They've got the kids home and into school and bought the house and moved and got their pensions and all their money out or whatever it is that they needed to do. And they're like, I've had a good mental break. I'm ready to go. but the market's not ready for them. So there's a lot of work that needs to be done in order to get back in step with that. So I think it's that managing expectations. And because it is a life transition as well as a career transition, when you take a few knocks or you get quite a few rejections or thanks but no thanks, It can knock your confidence. So I think to your point earlier, you know, surrounding yourself with like-minded people then or people with a common and shared experience is really important because they will invariably understand and relate because it feels very personal otherwise. It feels like it's being done to you. I
Emma Graham:think there's two really critical points there. I love your turn of phrase on the market isn't ready for you. I think you said it as an that I think is kind of a real sort of light bulb moment. And secondly, the confidence piece I think is huge. But also it's interesting on that kind of the market being ready for you because obviously, and similarly to your own experience, that often when the person's overseas, they're on this huge growth trajectory. They're taking on new opportunity. It seems like you said, you know, you're riding the wave. There's all this opportunity. There's all this stuff happening. And so they often feel on this real sort of upward trajectory and then come back. And I think that's where some of that disconnect comes and then that leads to the loss of confidence. And I think if you're not expecting that as well, you know, you haven't kind of mentally prepared for that. I think that can be really challenging for people.
Margot Andersen:Oh, incredibly difficult. And, you know, I think that we're used to saying yes and holding on and working things out and being problem solvers and saying, I'm not frightened to work hard. I'm not frightened to, you know, give this a go or to get in there and make it happen until make sure that we're delivering so you actually almost have this unchanneled energy when you're ready to go yeah and that is really like that you've really got to manage that carefully because if it's not being channeled it we get frustrated we get you know worn down or worn out and that comes out in our conversations when we're networking it comes out in our interview processes it comes out in those discussions and so managing the emotions of change and is incredibly important when, and recognising where you're at with that so that you can manage that is really important.
Emma Graham:Yeah. One of the other things that I've struggled to understand and to be fair, still struggle to understand is, To your earlier point, often those roles, you know, if you've been in, say, London or in New York or even Singapore, Hong Kong, the global exposure and the size and scope of what someone's been doing is, you can't really replicate that here. It's just a kind of reality of the numbers aren't here. And the thing that always surprises me is that when that person comes back with that type of experience that, well, I almost feel like people should be falling over themselves to actually maximize that experience and go, well, hang on, this person's done something that other people or the majority of other people in the market haven't done, haven't experienced. How can we actually make the most of that and kind of access something that we haven't actually got internally at the moment? And that certainly across the board doesn't seem to happen. And I don't really understand why, like maybe I'm a bit naive in that thinking. I don't know, but it certainly seems to be the case or certainly I've, heard a lot of experiences where that's happened.
Margot Andersen:And I think by default, because we are a small market, it's a highly competitive market. And so there's this sense that we're competing against each other all the time. And so with that then comes sometimes, you know, people will say to me, oh, I think they're worried I'm going to take their job. And it's like, well, I think when you're transitioning too, you've got to make it really clear around your motivations for what you're interested in and not just what you bring to the table because otherwise people will make assumptions they'll think oh the role's not big enough for you you'll be bored here love your experience it's amazing but we we can't use it we don't know how to use it you know and so they They can't join the dots. So part of our challenge and I think responsibility for us in managing our careers is to learn that positioning piece that really demonstrates the relevance in a manner that's not threatening or seen to cultivate opportunity rather than just be something like, oh, yeah, that's Nice to know, but, you know, I can't do anything with it, you know. Yeah. And that takes a bit of time, especially when you're trying to position yourself to a market that you may not, the local market that you may not have had a lot of exposure to. So you've got to educate yourself on the market and what the challenges are there to link them. So, yeah. But I think there's culturally.
Emma Graham:Sorry, go ahead.
Margot Andersen:I was going to say, I think there's also some cultural elements there too. You know, there's a good old tall poppy syndrome that we seem to have in Australia and that is we like people to be just like us you know don't get too far ahead of yourself and so when you get back the last thing you fear or the last thing you want to do is be positioned or to be labeled you know as one of those two copies and so it's just about how do you cultivate and link that experience together in a manner that's you know I guess attractive and and relevant and the positioning you know the positioning is key
Emma Graham:it is so key and I see it all the time as well in the space that I'm in I think there's almost that assumption because it's obvious to you that you don't sort of join the dots for the other person and that's where the misinterpretation and the misunderstanding can come that actually you do need to be a little bit prescriptive and say yeah this is you know this is why I'm coming back and this is the value I bring and I think the other thing that I sometimes see people do is they can sort of miss the context and not provide the context for the other person so you know if I've been working in London and I don't know I know boots the chemist is a massive brand in London, I write boots on my CV and I assume everyone knows what that is. And it's not the case, you know.
Margot Andersen:Yeah, a really good point because I will often say to people, you have to not just position yourself, but often you'll have to position the brand that you've been working for because if it's unknown, to find a local brand that actually represents that or represents the challenges that you've been solving. So I'll often talk to people Yeah. Yeah.
Emma Graham:Yeah. They'll just go to the next person if they don't understand it. You need to kind of provide that context. And as you said, positioning is really kind of critical.
Margot Andersen:Yeah. And language is so important. And probably as an ex-teacher, I come back to, you know, some of those fundamentals around how you're communicating things. But, you know, we all fall into acronyms. We all fall into, you know, sayings and phrases that are just kind of understood in the culture that we're in. They may not be here, but one of the challenges we have is when we come back here and we've been away for a while is our thinking and our default has actually slightly moved. And so we have to really think about the words and the phrases and the stories that we choose to tell.
Emma Graham:Yeah. One of the reasons I'm so passionate about this subject, certainly in terms of, you know, as a person from the UK, as an immigrant coming here, I've had my own experiences and As a recruiter, worked with a lot of people going through the same thing. But as I've mentioned to you before, my husband, who I met in London, was originally from Melbourne and had his own kind of expat experience coming back to Melbourne after 10, 11 years away. I think it was for him. We sort of met right towards the end of that time. But he found it so hard and was just not prepared for that experience. At all. I think he thought it would be pretty easy and, you know, he still thought he had a good network here, still had friends here, still knew people, had had a career in Melbourne before he'd gone.
Margot Andersen:Yeah, and I think that's... really important because I think to some degree I did the same, even though I didn't step back into a network here in Melbourne, I just didn't think it would be so hard, you know? And so, you know, I was like, oh my gosh, have I been ignorant? Have I been, you know, caught on the hop? Have I been, am I being a bit assumptive and lazy? You know, like I was really questioning myself, which is what happens as you then, you know, really go round and round internally around some of that. So I think the other thing I would say is that that we've grown when we've been away, but so have our networks here. And so what we tend to do is to remember each other for where we last were when we were together. So there's that challenge around going, well, I need to get curious around what you've been doing and how that's unfolded. And I need to educate maybe you or share with you a little bit around what I've been doing so that you can bring each other up to speed. Because if you don't do that, you just keep defaulting back to the role and the level or the company or the whatever that you were last at together or when you were at uni together or whatever it might be. So, yeah, yeah. So it's challenging. It's very challenging. Yeah, it
Emma Graham:is. And to that sort of, yeah, not being prepared for it and certainly not being appreciative of the amount of time that it would take and the hit to confidence during that, that time as well. And one of the things that I sort of obviously heard through him and have seen in my previous recruitment life as well is that I just think recruiters have such a response, much more of a responsibility than they probably appreciate just around how they talk to people and how they deal with some of that stuff I mean he had someone tell him that he was unemployable in Australia and like he's a chartered accountant like it was just I'm pretty sure it's not unemployable but just the fact that someone would say that it was just you know there's a bit of a humanity missing there that's right you know
Margot Andersen:yeah and I think you know it's such a highly transactional model, generally speaking, that if we just default to the you know, the product line or the, you know, the line of what we've got, we're taking the human element out of it, isn't it? At the end of the day, you know, I think I know that when I was involved in recruitment and one of the, my old boss, you know, he said to me, he said, I think it would be really good for recruiters to be out of work every three years and to remember what it's like to have to put on a suit or put on a work outfit and come into the city and have to talk about what you've done because it would bring that humanity back around that. The other thing I would say though, is that, recruiters are not career coaches and so we've got it you've got to be really careful about you know what are you looking for when you when you go to a recruiter and I think like any you know body that you engage whether it's a builder for a house or something you've got to have your brief right
Emma Graham:yeah
Margot Andersen:so when you go to a recruiter you've got to have your brief right because then it makes it easy for them to give input or give feedback and advice around that so you know I think that's very important as well to think about how you engage with recruiters so I think it's
Emma Graham:really true and it's a big motivation for why I've left recruitment and why I'm doing what I'm doing now that I think people in that position do sort of naturally turn to the recruitment industry thinking that it's there to help them and that's not actually what it's designed for sure there are you know great recruiters out there who will take the time to try and help you as much as they can but it's not actually what the industry is designed for you're not actually the primary client the person paying the bill. The client is the, the company is the primary client.
Margot Andersen:And they are operating in a smaller, more competitive market too. So if you think about your engagement with a recruiter, maybe in a London or a New York or wherever it was that you're returning from, they're in a big market, right? They're in a market that's more complex, has all of those things. So when you come back to Australia, there's a brief Okay. Now, part of the challenge, I think, as any recruiter would face is that, you know, sometimes, you know, to put forward a wildcard is a great thing in the mix, you know, but you've got to understand if you're the wildcard, you've got to understand that you've got to position yourself in an interview accordingly. So, yeah.
Emma Graham:What do you think is a reasonable kind of lag time? Like, what do you think if I'm, you know, sitting in London as an expat thinking, yep, I want to come back to Australia? Yeah. how soon, because it is a fine line. You almost can't start too early because then I think there's a momentum sort of issue. But when should people sort of really start? doing the activity as it were
Margot Andersen:yeah and look there's so many variables in that I think you know it's around what industry are you in what's your background where are you returning to you know if you're returning to Darwin versus Melbourne like they're two different places I think you know but if I think about the average people that I work with or start to take you know queries or when they start to follow along more intently maybe with some of the things that we're putting out they're one to two years out and we ran a lot we ran a lot yeah more than I would assume So we ran a global survey. We've done it twice now. And what we've seen is a real shift in the length of time that people are taking to prepare. Now, there's a couple of things that might come into play there. Either people are hearing more about the challenges or they are hearing more about us and the work that we do. So the people that we're surveying, you know, also are tuning in and dialing into this. But one to two years, if you're a senior, a senior professional in your sphere, I would say that in earnest, it's a year out, like as in applying for roles as if you're returning with a role, then there are those that come back and say, Michael, I legitimately do need some time out. And I'm like, that's okay. But just remember that when you're ready, the market may not be ready. So you might need to give yourself a year. you know, from when you decide that when you're ready. So in your planning, make sure that you've got the financial reserves for that. And the other thing I would say is emotion. It's not just a financial transition or a career transition. It's an emotional transition. So when you're going for roles and you're not being successful, how are you recalibrating from that? Like what's your bounce back factor? What do you need? What support structures do you need around you to help you navigate that that time of transition, because you can't get online and sit down at eight o'clock in the morning, think I'm going to get on to seek and LinkedIn and look at this today and then spend all day there. You'll go barking mad, you know? So what are the emotional sides of transition that you need to consider and factor in as well? So, sorry, it's a long way to come back to your, um, your question, but I would say that if you're wanting to return with a role and you're a senior professional, you want to give yourself one to two years.
Emma Graham:Yeah.
Margot Andersen:If your backup Coming back without a role and thinking I'll have a holiday. Many expats come at Christmas, back at Christmas. It's what we did. Yeah, exactly. I'll be ready by March. The market will have picked up. It'll be a bit more buoyant. And then all of a sudden in August, you're still talking to people, you know. Just know that that's normal. That's not necessarily out of step. It's not you personally. It's just part of this transition process that you need to be prepared to navigate. So the other thing I would say is that we know that people often come home or invariably come home not for career. They come home for other factors. They come home because mum or dad are ageing. We know that they are kids that are entering a certain phase of school. A partner doesn't want to be away or it's just simply... I just need time out or I just, you know, it's a lifestyle play. So if that's why you're coming back, you've got to remain anchored to that, you know. So that's got to be your driver because if it's six months down the track and you still haven't landed the, you know, the level of role that you want and you're not anchored to that, it'll be, you'll start to be thinking, it's when a lot of people start to go, I think I'll have to go back overseas. I think I'm going to head
Emma Graham:back.
Margot Andersen:And then the challenge there is, is actually they head back and it takes a while to adjust to wherever they're going. So, you know, like there's all those layered complications that then come from that as well.
Emma Graham:I think that having that expectation or that, that level of understanding that it is going to take time and certainly not instantaneous. And, you know, it could take up to 12 months. I think that is such an important piece of information to have, as you said, to realize that it's not you know this is the experience of most people who are coming back they are finding the same thing like you are not uniquely cursed that you can't find a job like it's complex like there's a lot of moving factors and I think thinking back to my husband's situation I think if he had known that and had had that sort of as a time horizon I think it would have been very different certainly in terms of the pressure i think that he felt of you know time going by yeah absolutely like i should be in a role it should be in a role it should be in a role as opposed to it is going to and sure you've got to work at it there's things you need to do all of those things but just kind of understanding and and having that sort of yeah it is going to take time i think would have made a would have made a really big difference to him
Margot Andersen:yeah it's you know and i think find people who've navigated the transition that you've done before or because, or those who are going through it, you know. But I think the beauty of what I've seen with the NSYNC network is that it's not just people who are mid-transition, it's people who've done it but want to remain connected to global thinking or, you know, and that's amazing because they've then got market intel and they've got re-established networks and they get it and they can support it. And people often say to me, oh, my, I walk up, way and my shoulders have come down from my ears because I feel seen and I feel understood and I think it's really important to have that support around you.
Emma Graham:Yeah definitely and I think also to the point of shared experience it's a piece of advice that I often give to people who are coming from overseas for the first time is when you're sort of networking and looking to build relationships look for people who have that shared experience who understand what you're going through. A, they're going to have great advice for you but b they're so much more likely to help you because they understand what you're going through yeah yeah and it makes a huge absolutely and also it makes that initial reach out easier because you're not sort of trying to i was going to say fabricate that's not the right words but you're not trying to come up with some sort of bridge as to why you're reaching out to this person the bridge is the shared experience yeah yeah
Margot Andersen:and i i think people and networks I'd generous by nature and they want to support and they want to help they just don't know how yeah so making it easy for people to share and contribute um is is the key you know so if you're reaching out to a network that you don't know but you can see in their background that they came out of a market that you've been in and they landed in a market that you want to be simply asking them to share their story
Emma Graham:is
Margot Andersen:is possibly you know one of the best things you can do and they can give of that easily because if they think oh, they're asking me for a job and I don't have a job. Yeah, exactly. But, you know, I do have a story and I do maybe have a network that could help them, then that's different.
Emma Graham:Yeah, absolutely. I could talk to you about this all day.
Margot Andersen:I could talk to you about it
Emma Graham:all day too. Yeah, I know. But I am going to go to our final question because I am conscious of time and it's the same final question as it always is on the podcast Justin, that is, what do you know now that you wish you knew then?
Margot Andersen:I would probably say that career and growth isn't always linear. You know, so when I left school or when I left uni and I first trained as a teacher, I thought I was on a path to being a teacher, you know, in the education system and in that system all the way through. And I think that when we appreciate that it's not a linear path, it gives us permission to get curious about and to kind of explore other opportunities and i don't mean be dismissive of where you've come from but like it doesn't have to stay in that lane and i think i possibly would have lent into some of the transitions a little bit more easily if i thought about well This could be a nice segue into something else. And there's a beautiful YouTube clip. I think it's put out, I think it's HBR actually. And it talks about your career. Look at your career as a rock wall, not as a ladder. Because we've kind of grown up with the fact that, you know, we're used to going up a rung, right? We even call
Emma Graham:it that, don't we? The
Margot Andersen:career ladder. Yeah. And you are either on the ladder or you've leapt off the ladder. And they're saying, well, actually, if you think about it as a rock wall and you're climbing the rock wall, something Sometimes it's better to step out and slightly up rather than straight up. It's safer. There's more opportunities. We're all still heading for the top or heading for the goal, but there are different ways to get there. So I think that's something that... would have been helpful if I'd left school thinking I'm going to have multiple careers and I'm, but yeah. So yeah. Thinking that it's not just one way to get there. And I think then in saying that it's okay for it not to be, prescribed or figured out every single step, because I think some of the greatest opportunities and growth have come when we've stayed anchored to our core and our values and our motivators and the problems that we like to solve. But it might be in a different form. It might be in a different company. It might be in a different sort of industry or lane or way of delivering something. So I think really thinking more broadly, not just Up and down. Yeah. I think it's probably one thing.
Emma Graham:I think that's a really, really important piece of advice. And I haven't heard that analogy before with me. That's a really good analogy. Yeah. I'm going to go and Google it and find that video. Oh, thank you. Because as soon as you say it, the visual is immediate in your mind and you can see it so clearly. That's awesome.
Margot Andersen:You know, who would have thought I'd be a business owner? That was never on
Emma Graham:my
Margot Andersen:radar, you know. But you're anchored to your core and what you love to do.
Emma Graham:Very cool. Thank you, Margot. Thank you so much. I really appreciate you taking the time and sharing your experience and sharing so many really useful and important insights as well. So thank you.
Margot Andersen:Thanks, Emma. I've loved our chat. And as you say, we could have chatted all day. I know, we did quite well. We sit within the bounds. Yeah, yeah, yeah, great. Thank you. Thank you.
