Your Career Journey

Beyond Busyness – Choosing Meaning Over Mayhem with Peggy Sullivan 💡

• Emma Graham

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Are you constantly busy but still feeling unfulfilled? In this episode, we dive into the powerful and life-changing concept of choosing meaning over mayhem with author and speaker Peggy Sullivan.

Peggy shares how breaking her addiction to busyness became her life’s mission after a stress-induced heart attack and a painful divorce. This honest and inspiring conversation exposes the dark side of busyness and the toll it takes on our health, relationships, and happiness.

With her unique “performance by design” framework, Peggy guides us on how to eliminate low-value tasks, adopt daily happiness rituals, and reclaim your time by choosing meaning over mayhem. She also shares how to reconnect with personal values and build a purpose-driven life and career.

Whether you're overwhelmed by work or simply ready for change, this episode will help you understand why choosing meaning over mayhem might be the most transformative decision you'll ever make.

✨ What You’ll Learn in This Episode:

00:00 Introduction and Greetings
00:20 Realising the Addiction to Busyness
01:14 Wake-Up Calls and Life Changes
02:05 The Struggle with Time Management
02:57 The Impact of Busyness on Life
04:38 Personal Experiences and Career Insights
10:38 Rethinking Work-Life Balance
13:48 Understanding and Prioritising Values
18:44 Losing Control at Work
19:49 The Myth of Busyness Equals Success
20:33 Performance by Design
23:27 Finding Meaning and Purpose
25:53 Practical Steps for Better Work-Life Balance
32:11 The Importance of Human Connection
33:33 Final Thoughts and Reflections

👇 Connect with Peggy Sullivan:
https://www.peggysullivan.com

Your host, Emma Graham, Career Coach and ex-recruiter, is here to help you with:

💡 Gain clarity on what’s important to you
💡 Confidently communicate your value
💡 Build a personal brand and a strong network
💡 Take a strategic approach to your next move
💡 Navigate the job market effectively
💡 Build career confidence with a repeatable success blueprint

🌐 Explore my coaching programs and free resources:
Website: https://www.egconsulting.au/
LinkedIn: https://au.linkedin.com/in/emmajgraham
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/emmagrahamcareercoach/

🎁 Free Resources:
📄 CV Development Guide: https://www.egconsulting.au/cv-advice
📄 LinkedIn Profile Optimisation Guide: https://www.egconsulting.au/linkedin-profile-guide

📅 Book Your FREE Career Strategy Discovery Call:
https://calendly.com/emmagrahamconsulting/discovery-call

Emma:

Hello and welcome to Your Career Journey, the podcast designed to be your compass through the twists and turns of career development. In this episode, I'm joined by Peggy Sullivan, a recovering business addict. A career as a highly successful senior corporate marketer and an always-on lifestyle led Peggy everywhere except where she wanted to go, success, happiness and health. After a series of serious wake-up calls, she knew that something had to change. Join me as Peggy talks about what she's learned what she's changed and the performance by design strategy she's uncovered to move beyond busyness. joined today by Peggy, Peggy Sullivan, all the way from East Coast America. Welcome. Welcome back at you. Good morning. It's my evening. Yeah, good morning. Good evening. We were just saying, not quite sure what day it is, but we're here. Exactly. Well, thank you for joining me. I appreciate you. Appreciate you making the time. How did you come to understand, Peggy, that you were addicted to busyness? Tell me, tell me the story. Yeah,

Peggy:

I

Emma:

actually

Peggy:

ate cat food for dinner. That is the story. i had not ideal i had come home from work one day exhausted and ravenous so i opened the cupboards to find anything i could that was edible i was a single mom at the time and i grabbed a stale bag of pistachio nuts and i chopped them down and my cat was pulling on my legs and he was like mommy feed me so i threw some kibbles into his dish and fell asleep on the couch and next thing I know my cat is looking down on me throwing up pistachio nuts and I'm looking to my hand and I see cat food and I realized that I switched the two And that led to a series of other wake-up calls. My husband of 18 years ended our marriage. He said that I wasn't spending enough time with him. And eight months later, I had a stress-related heart attack. And I lost out on a job opportunity I really wanted. So I was having all these wake up calls. And then it occurred to me, you better wake up. You know that that this is not what like there is more to life than the way that I was running and jumping and you know, raising the bar all the time that I need to take a time out and just really think about what was important and how it's gonna spend the rest of my life. So that's exactly what I did. And I used a lot of data. I believe that no, I don't believe I know that 94% of people on this universe don't have time for what's important. So this thing that we call time management, which by the way, is a $10 billion industry isn't working. And I think we're all kind of left trying to too much to do, too little time. And so for me, it was a legacy of love to figure out how I could escape the hamster wheel and also help others because I knew I wasn't

Emma:

alone. You said 94%. That's a huge number. Wow. It's kind of shocking. Actually, I would expect it to be a big number. I wouldn't expect it to be quite as big as that. Huge. It is huge.

Peggy:

It is. It is huge. And you you think about it. I mean, you ask anybody how you're doing, what's going on with your day. I'm so busy. You know, I wish I had more time to work out. I wish I had time to go to my daughter's soccer game. I wish, you know, and the reality is we all have the same 24 hours in the day, but it feels like. So many things are pulling at us, right? I mean, technology has been improved. There are so many apps. There are so many responsibilities. There are so many different ways in which we can work. And so we've just learned to run really fast on the treadmill. And unless it just goes so fast that we fall down like I did, we just keep on doing. And it's okay to survive, not thrive. And that wasn't okay with me anymore.

Emma:

Interesting when you mentioned that series of things that happened to you, like really extreme things that happened to you. In between those things, what was kind of the narrative in your head? I guess my point is that it took a series of things for you to kind of go, okay, hang on, it wasn't the first one that kind of stopped you in your tracks.

Peggy:

You know, I mean, eating the pet food, was clearly I was in a burnt out haze I was on autopilot and I'm lucky because it could have been worse right I mean it could have been something really bad and you know in terms of my husband leaving me he just had reached his boiling point and he was done and there was no changing that and And, you know, when I had the stress-related heart attack, I was trying to be super career woman. And so I just kept on trying to be a good girl and to get things done and to, you know, be a good mother and keep a good house and be a thriving career woman and to do all those things. But what happened was I lost sight of what's important.

Emma:

Yeah, it's so interesting, isn't it? And even just those little phrases Like we hear them all the time in everyday life, don't we? And even your example before of how are you? Oh, I'm so busy. And it's kind of like a badge of honor that that's, you know, that that's a positive seen as a positive response to the question, which in hindsight, maybe it's not quite so, not quite so positive. Well, it doesn't really answer the question. How are you? No. Right. It gives you no information. Yeah. Yeah it's interesting though because I think it is one of those default things that we just say without even thinking. I remember a little while ago I did a little experiment I started answering that question with I'm as busy as I want to be and people because often even here people will say not even how are you they'll say how are you busy and you know there's kind of an assumption that Busy is good, so that's what you're going to say. And I started saying, oh, I'm as busy as I want to be. And it's quite interesting to see the responses and the kind of strange looks on people's faces. The

Peggy:

reality is, from my research, people like being busy. It's a status symbol. It's a sign of success. And I don't think we're going to change that. That doctor is so busy. I can't see him for six months. He must be really worth it, right? Yeah. Even my cat hides when he knows I'm stressed out.

Emma:

Yeah, and gets the wrong thing for dinner and gets made to sick. Hopefully he survived the pistachio incident. He's okay.

Peggy:

He did, but the reality is cats don't have the teeth to properly chew, which is why he threw up. And it could have been a lot worse.

Emma:

Yeah, absolutely. You mentioned there the work side of busy and you yourself, I was just having a look on LinkedIn before you started speaking, a super successful corporate career in marketing comms and customer experience. And as you said, that sort of busyness, hustle culture thing. particularly in the corporate space, although I think it exists outside of it as well. Tell me about the, I guess, the career side of it, the work side of it and kind of how that kind of manifested for you. Yeah,

Peggy:

I mean, I was really lucky. I had great, I wasn't lucky. I worked hard. I was a hard worker. I always performed. And so I worked for large organizations and had big jobs. And I traveled the world. And that was okay. But what that meant was 12, 10 hour days. What that meant was looking at a post-it note to remind myself where in the world I was. What that meant was I didn't get to spend time with my family and I think what that also meant was I wasn't focusing on what's important at work so I was getting stuff done but had I been more intentional with my time and sort of performance by design instead of performance by autopilot I have no doubt I would have been more productive because I All of the stats around all these things that we do, multitasking, interruptions, too many meetings, not getting a good night's sleep, all of them, every ounce of that data points to lower performance and a loss in health and wellness and happiness and energy. I mean, nothing really good comes of it. We keep on thinking we get stuff done, but Really, if we reduce and subtracted a few low-value things, we could focus on what's really important and take care of ourselves and come to every meeting with peak performance and a strategy and creatively and wholeheartedly.

Emma:

It's that kind of reactivity, isn't it? That, as you said, there's not that perhaps clarity of thought. There's not that pre-planning. There's not that prioritization. It's the, you know, what's coming at me next? Where do I need to be? What meeting am I in? Emails pinging at you. And I'd imagine you saw a lot of that.

Peggy:

Yeah, I mean, people tell me that I'm a peak performance expert or a productivity expert. And I always say, no, I'm a performance by design strategist. Let's design how you spend your time so that it gets you where you want to go.

Emma:

Yeah, that's a really nice differentiation there. Work-life balance. It's the phrase that invariably gets thrown around, particularly in this type of conversation. And I have my own issues with it, but I know you do too. So tell me about work-life balance. Is that the

Peggy:

solution? Honestly, I feel like busyness is an addiction. You know, The word addiction is a heavy-duty word, and normally we think about really serious things. And addiction is horrible, and I've had relatives who have been alcoholics or had other types of problems, but we don't realize that the reason why we like being busy is this adrenaline rush. So it's neurological. Your head... all of a sudden flips on and sends dopamine to your body, basically telling you, this is great, you're getting stuff done. And so it's like a reward system. And so it's very, very hard for people to escape what I call time poverty, not having time for what's important. And that's what I do. I teach people how to escape time poverty so you have as much time as you need for what's important. But you asked how and the how for me is the secret sauce because there are a lot of speakers that go out there and they've got a lot to say and they're energizing and they're funny and they can talk about eating cat food for dinner and get the audience to laugh. But for me, it's about, okay, well, how can I get off this hamster meal? What can I do? And I've spent the last 10 years developing a process that gives on average people back five to seven hours a week. And it's very methodical. It's about subtraction, eliminating those low value activities and very strategically eliminating the things that don't matter. And then it's about tapping into the neuroscience of happiness, because if business is addictive, then you need to substitute that dopamine rush with something. And I always say, you know, we tend to think that happiness is a destination. It's a thing. I'm going to be happy when I get the job. I'm going to be happy, you know, when I'm on vacation or whatever that one or that is. But What if we turn that around? What if the paradigm was we create our own happiness rituals, and they don't have to be these big things, but they can just be micro moments of joy. I call them happiness rituals, and for me, they're as simple as, you know, petting my cat, eating dark chocolate, going for a walk, just these micro activities that just take me out of my own head. It's like pushing reset, restart, and they just make me feel good so that's sort of step two in the framework and then the third one which is really the most important one is really about being crystal clear on what's important because you can't align your life with what's important if you don't know what's important and I I believe that the most important thing in life, the thing that should guide us, the thing that should lead us to do the right thing at the right time for the right reason is our values. But values have gotten to be these little one-word things like trust and family, and they're not about the things that fill us up at the end of the day. You can have a bunch of trust or tell the truth all day long, but it doesn't mean you're going to end your day feeling happy healthy and productive so I did a lot of research to understand what things really equate to performance and quality of life and happiness and health and what I learned is that there are actually four what I call value clusters you can call them whatever you want but the first one is energy management it's it's really about taking care of yourself and managing your mood it's all It's also about human connection. That's a second value and connecting with real life people. It's about growth. My dad always used to say, Toots, a day without learning something new is a lost opportunity. And I'd be like, why do you say that, dad? And he'd say, well... Then we get resilient. Then we know we can do hard things and we don't get stressed out about every little change, every little pivot. And so growth is one of them. And then the fourth one is authenticity. And I turn that one upside down because I think today it's not so much about stepping into our own truths and having the courage to believe in what we believe in, but it's being open-minded and accepting of Thank you so much.

Emma:

Yeah, it's such a good saying that I use that one quite a lot myself. Yeah, it's a good one. The ratio is there for a reason. Use them in the appropriate ratio. It's fascinating because that, Very simple on the surface question of what's important to you. It's a question that I use a lot in my own work with my own clients. It's the foundation for a lot of what comes next. But what I found is that when I asked that question for the first time, a lot of people don't know. Or they sort of know, but they sort of... and maybe it's the context in which the question is being asked, right? I'm a career coach. So they immediately kind of go to a work type answer and I'll sort of say, no, no, I mean, you know, life in general, big picture, like what are the things that are important to you? And it's really interesting the difficulty that often people have to answer that question. Have you found that as well? Oh,

Peggy:

you are spot on. I have a presentation I give to people and that's about values. And I often ask, the audience, what are your values? And they'll look at me like I'm talking in a different language. And then the next thing they'll do is they'll Google values. Literally, they will pull out their phones and Google values. Or they'll go with the traditional ones. So I think we've gotten so far away from our values and knowing what they are. And for me, like that is such an important part of my process is you have to know what's important or else you won't be spending your time on what's important. And part of knowing what's important is also knowing what's not important, what's a low value activity.

Emma:

Yeah, I think the other thing point on that is that if you don't know someone else is going to give you the answer the answer is going to come from somewhere you know your employer your your spouse the people around you you know they're going to dictate what they think is important which will kind of become then your priorities and and you find yourself potentially working to things that aren't actually important or meaningful to

Peggy:

you. Yeah, you lose control. Yeah, you totally lose control. You know, it's like you're like a marionette, you know, where somebody else is pulling the strings and the figure of a marionette with somebody pulling the string is... often the visual that people give me about how they feel at work. You know, somebody else is pulling the strings. I know how to do it. I know how to get it done. But everybody's telling me how. And, you know, I just, like, can't we just focus on bottom line? Can't we just get the job done? Can't we just have growth and performance? And, you know, we don't need necessarily all these tried and perfected processes. Can it be about just making Yeah, I'm

Emma:

laughing because I totally agree with you, like novel concepts. You know, it actually, at the end of the day, isn't that complicated, is it? But we just add these layers and layers to it, which, as you say, you don't actually need. Do you, when you're having these conversations with people, you know, giving these presentations or you, you know, I know you get invited into organisations to talk about this topic. Do you get pushback in the sense of what will, you know, will I still be able to achieve as much if I'm not busy? Do people kind of get a bit hung up on that, that if somehow I'm not busy, I'm not productive or successful does that come up at all what I

Peggy:

ask people is what would you do if you had six more hours in your week how would you spend it and they tell me and I'm like well do you want six more hours in your week and they're like yeah because then I could So I'm like, okay, so really what I'm talking about is performance by design. It's about values management, not time management. Time management, you know, it's a $10 billion industry. And that's crazy because none of us have time and we just talked about it. So for me, you know, we can call it whatever. we were and i don't use the word busy all that much because i find people like it and our society believes busyness equals success but i say Let's look at bottom line performance. What moves the mark? You know, what is most important? You know, you have nothing without your health. You know, if you're running all the time and you have no health and you're burnt out, well, you're probably not making the best decisions at work and you're definitely not working at your peak, your creativity, all those, you know, metrics, they just fall down.

Emma:

Yeah, yeah, I totally agree with you. And I think that's a lot of the challenge, isn't it? That as a society, I said it before, that busyness is seen as a badge of honour, that if you're busy, that must mean that you're successful. It must mean that you're good at what you do. It must mean that you, you know, are quote unquote valuable, that the status attached to it, you know, all these things. And I think, you know, we can all imagine and, you know, you may be one yourself, someone listening, those people who wear busyness with such pride that, you know, their calendar, their day is just go, go, go. I'm far too busy. I can't stop and speak to you. I've got all of these things to do, which must mean I'm so important. And I would imagine it's quite challenging for people to get kind of shifted out of that. But interested when you ask people that question around if you had six more hours, what would you do with it? Do most people give an answer of what they would do with kind of quote unquote free time as opposed to what they would do in their work? Yeah, I'd spend more time with my family. It depends where

Peggy:

I ask them. If I'm speaking at a workplace and I say, what would you do if you were six? They naturally tell me I'd be more strategic. I'd do more market research. You know, I'd collaborate. I'd spend more time with my people. You know, it just... It just depends who you ask and when you stroke them. But the reality is, I mean, there is no work-life balance. There's just life. And so we need to figure this life thing out and be able to feel like we're satisfied. And for me, it's about, well, choose meaning over mayhem. Don't just keep running around in a mindless

Emma:

haze. I saw that a lot, actually, off the back of COVID, where people in, I don't know what the numbers would be, but pretty high proportions, I reckon, certainly two thirds of the people that I was speaking to at that time, their primary question, their primary goal was around meaning and wanting to find more meaning and purpose often is the word that comes up as well in their work. And the thing I found really interesting about that was that I found people had quite a narrow definition of it and it would almost invariably lead them towards perhaps not-for-profit or that sort of space because the definition was quite narrow particularly I think when they were talking about purpose but when it sort of opened it up to be more about meaning and then it gave a much wider definition because the meaning might be actually I get tremendous meaning from coaching my team you know I love being able to watch my team grow and junior members of of my team evolve to the next level. And if that's your definition, then suddenly there's much more pathways open to you. Do you find a similar thing? Well,

Peggy:

the skeptical people, I say, let's just try, let's give it a whirl for one week. And then what happens is they light up and they have more time and they're happier and they're healthier. And then they're like, okay, I'm kind of getting what you're talking about. You know, it's a feeling. It's intentionality. It's just not feeling like I'm in a pressure cooker.

Emma:

The proof is in the pudding, I guess. It's like anything, isn't it? If you actually experience it for yourself, you see it and you're like, ah, okay. Now it's the light bulb moment. Like now I get it. Yeah. I can imagine someone listening to this who's, you know, nodding along and agreeing with everything that you say and that, yeah, I want that. I want more time. I want more intentionality. And I can certainly see how someone who is working for themselves or has their own business has a, you know, totally degree of control over their time. If someone's in a larger corporate organization and they feel like they've perhaps not got as much control over their time and there's obviously external factors there what can what can they do like what are the what are the steps that they can can start to to make for themselves yeah

Peggy:

I

Emma:

mean

Peggy:

every organization cares about performance and growth right sustainability and so when you think about focusing on those things then all of a sudden spending 83% of your day in meetings doesn't really make a whole bunch of sense because you're not getting the real work done. And so I tell people to challenge the status quo. And most people do have overstuffed schedules. If you have an overstuffed schedule, Talk to your manager and just say, hey, you know, I know that, you know, I was brought in to do X, Y, Z, and I'm really excited about moving the mark, but it just feels like that is a priority is getting pushed aside because of all these other things, you know, so. Can you help me? Do I really need to be going to all these meetings? Do I really need to be doing all these things? And then a good manager is going to want to see their employees succeed, and they're going to want to help them be in a position to focus on what's important to that

Emma:

organization. Yeah, meetings is a big one, isn't it? I forget the name of the theory, but the time expands to fill the vacuum or the activity expands to fill the time. Like if the meeting's an hour, you'll take an hour. If the meeting's 15 minutes, you'll get the important things done in 15 minutes. And yet so many meetings default to being an hour long when they could be so much shorter. That's probably a relatively low-hanging piece of fruit. Yeah. Going back to the corporate kind of training, is that something that you do a lot of as opposed to the speaking? Because I'm really interested in how sort of bigger corporations can take on some of this thinking.

Peggy:

Yeah, I mean, I do a lot with purpose-driven leadership, which really affects growth and bottom line performance. And I also speak to a lot of organizations about holistic well-being and what that means to bottom line performance and, you know, values alignment in the workplace. How do you bring purpose into the workplace so that it's meaningful for employees, not just for employers? Having a poster on the wall saying these are our corporate values. It doesn't mean

Emma:

anything.

Peggy:

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Emma:

Yeah, it's so true though, isn't it? And one of those posters is normally about people and how important are people to us whilst we're creating an

Peggy:

environment.

Emma:

Yeah, exactly. And you see it a lot in... I've seen it a lot in my previous recruitment career of particularly through hiring processes, but oh, people are our most important assets. And then the hiring process is not necessarily designed to reflect that. And the

Peggy:

reward system and all of it, you know, it's just a little broken right now. But I think we're at a perfect conundrum in the world where, you know, we have an opportunity to say it's time for a little bit of change. And what I love so much about my performance by design methodology is that it's micro steps you don't have to cut off an arm or a leg you don't have to run a marathon it's just subtract one thing that isn't valuable you know incorporate a couple of happiness rituals to pick your mood and your energy up and and you know just know what's important and and then measure that make sure you're spending most of your time on what's important to you it's it's just not It's doable, right? This is

Emma:

all doable for all of us. Yeah. And like you said, I think that the smaller steps, it doesn't have to be some kind of big overwhelming thing where, gosh, I suddenly need to find... 10 hours a week and and that feels like a lot but as you say if you can find maybe 15 minutes a day and that's five minutes to spend time with your cat or yeah five minutes to enjoy your your dark chocolate and those kind of moments in in the day you reset and then

Peggy:

you come back refreshed and ready to solve problems and get stuff done

Emma:

kick butt yeah Yeah, absolutely. Interesting as well, your point earlier that's so true about dopamine and that if you're not replacing that, then that's actually going to be a really big issue because that's part of the problem. You're addicted to that. And that is

Peggy:

exactly why mojo making and happiness rituals is part of the process. I mean, so much of the time that I spent researching this too much to do too little time to do it, you know, had to address this, this busyness addiction, and how we can replace it and how we can overcome it.

Emma:

Yeah. And your four, your four kind of tranches of values, you said energy, community, connection, authenticity. Have I got that right? Growth. Yeah. Growth. Yeah. And that's a good place for people to start, do you think kind of working out what those things are for

Peggy:

them? Yeah, just baby sets. What can I do to manage my energy better? You know, How can I connect with other people more? What can I do to learn something new every day? And how can I be a better listener and be more authentic? None of this stuff is hard stuff. And for most people, it's the people we want to be. It's the lives we want to lead. We just got a little off track. It's time to kind of put the track and the train on the same rail.

Emma:

Yeah. Do you find certainly on that connection point that sort of working from home and all this, I know we're doing it now, but virtual meetings and doesn't feel like it's actually helping because it is taking away a lot of that sense of connection that people would have had in the workplace, which has been removed to a certain degree?

Peggy:

I

Emma:

mean, I think there's a way

Peggy:

to get a virtual connection, but it doesn't replace human connection. And virtual connection doesn't help the 92-year-old woman who's lonely. And, you know, I mean, it's just virtual connection is great. And we're lucky that we have so many things. We're lucky we have AI. We have all that stuff. But nothing replaces a hug and a discussion and, you know, real people rolling up their sleeves and talking something out. Nothing replaces that.

Emma:

No, it's so true. And I do wonder, you just mentioned AI there. I do think that's actually one of the opportunities that potentially it gives us if it does give us back more time and then that time we can spend in in other ways I guess remains to be seen how that all pans out but on the on the rosy version of the potential future yeah that is one of the the positive outcomes that we might we might for sure final question Peggy and it's always the the final question here on the here on the podcast and that is what do you know now that you wish you knew then

Peggy:

we had more power over over our lives than we think. We're not victims. We're powerful creatures who have the power of choice. We need to make better choices. I absolutely love that. I would 100% concur. Yeah, I wish I made some better choices. But you know what? The thing is, it's just never too late. And the reality is, there's no point in looking backwards. You're here right now in the moment. you know it's greatest time as

Emma:

ever to start yeah absolutely it's the it's the old chinese proverb isn't it of the best time to plant a tree was 20 years ago the next best time is is today yeah and i think that's so i think that's so true yeah and i do think we've we've lost a bit of that sense of agency of of like you are the person that's in control of your life and and you can make these sorts of decisions for yourself as you said you've got the you've got the power to be able to do that. So I love that. That's a great place to end. Well, thank you so much, Peggy. I really enjoyed that. So interesting and such an important topic. And I hope that people have taken some good insights from the conversation. Me too. And thank you so much for having me.

Peggy:

And we think, yeah, we think we'll have a like. So I greatly appreciate your approach to life. We need more people that are more strategic with more intentional,

Emma:

more strategic. And that really is one of the reasons, main reasons that I started the podcast, actually, to have these types of conversations and to show maybe some different ways of going about things and to share different ideas and hopefully lead people to ask themselves some questions and see if they want to do things a bit differently or not, because, you know, you've obviously got the choice. Yeah, absolutely. Well, thank you so much. Before you go, I've got a quick favour to ask. If you enjoyed this episode or something in it resonated with you, I'd love it if you could leave a quick review or rating on Apple Podcasts. It's one of the best ways to help more people find the show and I love to hear what's landing with you. Just scroll down in the app, tap a star rating and if you've got 30 seconds, leave a few words too. Thanks again for listening. I really appreciate it.

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