Your Career Journey

Nonlinear Career Paths: How Breaking Tradition Leads to Greater Success. With Janice Lee-Fu

• Emma Graham

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Are you stuck on the traditional career ladder?  

Maybe it’s time to rethink what success really looks like. 🚀 

In this episode, I sit down with marketing leader Janice Lee-Fu to unpack the power of nonlinear career paths and discuss why they might just be the fastest route to growth, fulfilment, and long-term resilience.

Janice’s journey spans engineering, global FMCG brands, executive leadership, e-commerce, and academia. Along the way, she’s learned how curiosity, agility, and resilience open doors you never expect, and why stepping sideways (or even backwards) can propel you further than climbing straight up.

🔥 What you’ll take away:

 ✔️ The “rock climbing wall” analogy that redefines career growth
 ✔️ Why agility and curiosity drive innovation and long-term success
 ✔️ Lessons from FMCG, e-commerce, and highly regulated industries
 ✔️ How financial literacy gives marketers a competitive edge
 ✔️ Practical leadership strategies to engage and retain next-gen talent
 ✔️ Why ditching the linear path can help you stand out in a crowded market

Whether you’re a marketer, creative, or professional seeking change, this conversation will give you the tools and the confidence to design a career that’s truly your own.

Timestamps:
0:00 – Introduction & Janice’s early career
4:00 – Transitioning from engineering to marketing
10:00 – Lessons from FMCG and private equity
18:00 – Leadership, innovation, and team development
25:00 – Navigating regulated industries and crisis moments
32:00 – Hiring for growth vs. risk aversion
38:00 – The importance of curiosity and diverse experience
42:00 – Final advice: Embracing nonlinear career paths

If you'd like to connect with Janice:
linkedin.com/in/leejanice

Your host, Emma Graham, Career Coach and ex-recruiter, is here to help you with:

💡 Gain clarity on what’s important to you
💡 Confidently communicate your value
💡 Build a personal brand and a strong network
💡 Take a strategic approach to your next move
💡 Navigate the job market effectively
💡 Build career confidence with a repeatable success blueprint

🌐 Explore my coaching programs and free resources:
Website: https://www.egconsulting.au/
LinkedIn: https://au.linkedin.com/in/emmajgraham
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/emmagrahamcareercoach/

🎁 Free Resources:
📄 CV Development Guide: https://www.egconsulting.au/cv-advice
📄 LinkedIn Profile Optimisation Guide: https://www.egconsulting.au/linkedin-profile-guide

📅 Book Your FREE Career Strategy Discovery Call:
https://calendly.com/emmagrahamconsulting/discovery-call

Emma:

Hello and welcome to Your Career Journey, the podcast designed to be your compass through the twists and turns of career development. I'm joined today by Janice Lee Fu, an accomplished marketing leader, to understand how she's built her career to date. With experience across a variety of industries such as FMCG, retail, e-commerce, well-being and academia, from huge global businesses, small-scale startups and everything in between, what are the principles that have guided her decisions and how can you apply them to your own career? Join me as we find out. So I am joined today by Janice. Janice Liefo, welcome. Hi Emma, how are you? I'm

Janice:

doing very well,

Emma:

thank you. How are you? Yeah, good, good, good. Excited to get into all things career journeys, marketing, FMCG, all of the above. When you sort of think back to, I guess, probably your earliest memory of what you thought you were going to do when you, you know, grew up or left school or do you remember what that was? Do you remember what your kind of first thoughts were? I

Janice:

started wanting to get into a career of engineering. I had a real fascination around maths and science, solving problems and looking at problems in a different way to find solutions and innovative solutions. I was actually encouraged by my brother to consider a commerce degree and the first I guess the first year I stepped into Monash University, I gained a real understanding of what a business, I guess, requires from a leader. And I fell into marketing because I just fell into love with the subject of marketing and the curiosity of understanding, not just consumers, but people. So what makes them excited? How do we solve problems for them? And how do we find really innovative solutions? And I think that really built upon the curiosity I had growing up around that logical sense of maths and science, but becoming into more that innovative and creative space.

Emma:

I can see how those two things would kind of fit together or one certainly would kind of build in into the other. Certainly that approach to solving problems and then putting that more sort of creative kind of lens on top of it or customer lens on top of it. Yeah.

Janice:

Yeah, and I think what you don't realise until you move into a business environment and depending on what type of brand or business you start off with, you don't realise as a marketer, there's a lot of, there's a big need to understand numbers. If I think back in a lot of the roles that I have been in and as I progressed in my career, the requirement and balance of mix of critical thinking, number-based, commercial acumen, it starts growing as you get into more senior roles because you're making decisions that impact on business performance as well as helps drive consumer or customer decisions that eventually lead to business performance.

Emma:

Yeah, absolutely. And I think it's the area where you can sometimes see a bit of a disconnect between marketing and the broader business where the marketer perhaps isn't as financially literate or or doesn't have that sort of level of commercial understanding or perhaps sees marketing as a more kind of ring fenced in. I think that's where that disconnect can come. But yeah, as you say, the financial literacy and the commercial understanding, I think makes such a huge, huge difference. How did you start? Have you done your commerce degree and then you're kind of out into the big wide world? What happened then? Where was the starting point for you?

Janice:

Yeah, so I started my career in a AFX company called Paper Leafs at that time. So they have evolved and been bought over by a different company now. So, you know, they trade under the Nippon Paper Group. Paper Leafs at that time owned a really well-known brand called Reflex. So that's where I started in my career. It was one of the best experiences I had. It had very robust budgets, a strong brand identity, strong customer relationships, and also a very established, I guess, business model that facilitated growth and understanding. And I also had some Antarctic leaders and I still remember them to this day because they're the type of leaders that have resonated with me and guided me to be the type of leader I have been now in some of my roles. But I guess I was really curious around brands and innovation and the first year in that role, it really developed a strong desire to build a career marketing. So I had quite a few conversations in industry and at that time, what I was encouraged to look into was build a career in FMCG because FMCG not only had good discipline, so marketers are known to be well disciplined in their thinking and also in the way they operate and understanding brands. You know, some of the businesses I worked in, you know, the pleasure to work for Gerald Mills and they had a global academy in understanding how to build brands and how did that resonate with consumers and customers. So there's a real good discipline around it. But also there's a really good robustness around innovation and in FMCG to remain relevant, not just in the eyes of your consumer, but also in the eyes of your customer to keep stimulating growth within the category. Innovation is one of those key things that you have to understand the role it plays and there's a fast turnover. Some of the categories I played in, particularly when I worked in private equity under Paddy's Foods, we were launching new products every six months across multiple portfolios. So to understand how that works and encapsulating the insights, what are the opportunities? How does it play in the category? What's the role it delivers commercially for your customer? Being able to sell and bring the customer on journey and partner with them. But then also understanding the backbone of manufacturing. Like when you're working in a product environment, a manufacturing environment, you have to be able to understand how you bring those ideas to life. Sometimes what is a consumer validated idea and is a quite synthorial and tested well does not necessarily mean it works in the factory and also it makes money. So there's a lot of moving parts that plays in. So understanding that full mix is really important And I found that understanding that full mix brings a really strong robustness as a marketer. See, I ended up being able to lead the place of leading commercial functions at Kraft Heinz, leading a commercial function for their beverage portfolio. And I guess having that 360 view, that's when I landed in my next executive senior leadership role in a pure play environment in e-commerce. and being able to add value as part of the management team in AONZ business unit and not just drive performance out of and deliver the outcome strategically from a marketing and innovation standpoint, but also provide a holistic business lens. Because when you have a seat on the table, you're making really sound judgment to what drives growth for a business. And at times on the leadership team, you may have to make some sacrifices or from judgment calls that may not be a benefit to the department that you're serving and you're looking after. But it's about the overall business outcome. And I'm finding that's a very meaningful conversation now that I'm in an interim position and leading my own business in fractional CMO and supporting businesses and helping CEOs and MDs see about their problems a little bit differently. A lot of my clients come to me with marketing problems, but what I sit down with them and I have conversations with them about is, hey, maybe there might be a different way of looking at solving your commercial issues and your commercial challenges. And what are other ways that we can help add value and help deliver the growth objectives that you have? And I think reflecting back on my career, if I haven't, if I'd taken in linear path in marketing I don't think I'll be able to think holistically as well as if I stayed in a certain type of business or size of business I probably wouldn't have had more of that agile thinking and think about what it's like to work with a business that's in startup and scale up which are completely different positions to be versus say an ASX company that is highly researched well-structured well-established brands you know and and you've got to think about what your role is and how do you add value and being able to think holistically provides a very different lens

Emma:

is it something that you did intentionally at the time to to seek out those different opportunities or was it something that just kind of quite organically happened and you thought oh great interesting I'll you know I'll try that and see what happens

Janice:

it was organic Emma I just I think I've always had this entrepreneurial side of me where I feel that it's all about having a little bit of fun along the way, right? If you're not enjoying it, then what's the point? That's right. That's right. And I think if I reflect back, I've even worked for founder-led businesses pre when they were listed. And on paper, they may not look as attractive or the size of the organization and the budgets weren't as attractive as some of the ASX companies. But because I was curious, I was just naturally curious. I wonder what it's like to work for these businesses. And I also was curious around culture. I was always curious around the people that I would partner with and the progressive mindset that they have. And that curiosity just landed me in areas which I guess helped stretch my thinking. And when I think about my next move or I think about the clients that I feel really engaged to partner with, I'm always looking for that mindset of progressiveness, the openness to be agile, and that curiosity. Because I think the curiosity also fuels the opportunity to solve problems and innovate.

Emma:

Absolutely, yeah. It's such a simple idea, being curious, but it's something that I hear a lot from people who have not done completely different things but have had career paths like that that you wouldn't necessarily from the outset you know draw a line between a and d but when you're there and and the driver is i wonder what that would be like i wonder what types of problems they're solving i wonder what i could learn in that business i wonder what i could learn from that leader that that is a driver can take you to some really interesting places that i think you perhaps wouldn't otherwise have gone if you were making the, you know, looks good on paper, for example, type decisions.

Janice:

Yeah. And I think the businesses are now looking for talent that can help them solve problems in a meaningful manner. Yeah, 100%. And with, I guess it's been no shock to everyone, the whole squeeze of talent as in the people side and there's been a amplification of talent that companies are looking for talent that can help support them in specific areas and solve problems that are meaningful to them. And I think the curiosity of not just learning, but adding value in a different way, it helps shape where you can go and in the areas that you can help add value as well. And so I think by taking a different path, you may learn some different things about yourself. So I have currently found my, I always tell everyone, it's my retirement climate passion career I found my second career I also practice as an academic at Monash University and Monash Business School it's been a real pleasure but the reflection besides giving back is I feel that so much as a leader and a lot of leaders I've spoken to one of the biggest challenges we have is how to retain staff in this next generation of talent particularly Gen Z's and being able to work on the ground with them because the roles I was in previously I was elevated. I had managers that would work with them on a day to day basis. And my role was more coaching, guidance and engagement. And I just find it's really shifted my thinking and my leadership style. So when I do go back in my next meeting role, I have a very different style of engagement that I would be bringing to the table around how to bring the best out of this new talent generation. They're actually really resilient. They had some of the strongest critical thinking. One of the subjects I taught in market insights, we actually based a lot of, I guess, management consulting tools that you would typically use in tier ones or management consulting companies in a, in a category in the industry I used to work on. And the critical thinking I saw out of the students was phenomenal. And it really challenged the way I used to think as a leader around their resilience, but what they need is someone that would support them. And it's not just a mentor. It's a, it's, it's a support person that would sit down with them, have a conversation and have a very adult conversation around solving problems in a different way, how they navigate through roadblocks and be open to their thinking and challenge their thinking in a different lens. And I think there's a misconception that they always like to have told what to do, but in fact they do like to be challenged. So what I would probably do differently, and this is just purely by taking a passion point that I had, it wasn't a career move, but it's now going to be my future retirement path. But it's, it's, it's taught me some valuable lessons around leadership and leadership because it was so different to when I was entering into my career, how I was coached, how I was, and even the style of leadership that I was coached into or I learnt throughout my career. Because this new generation, and I don't think it's even a generational thing, it's just being brought up with a very different, they have technology that we didn't have when we started in our career. And also the style of parenting is very different. I'm a, I'm a young, I'm a mom to a young family and you know, the style of parenting is very different to when we all grow up. So the stimulation and the environment that they grew up in requires a different type of coaching and development. And I think as leaders, we've got to often listen and learn and adopt our style and ensure that we're having meaningful conversations with them that are individualized, but also when we're leading large teams that can be amplified and I remember standing in front of 400 postgraduate students and giving them coaching tips on authentic connections so they were interested around networking but I always see it as authentic connections it's about having a very personalized approach to each of them but also communicating to the masses so I think as a leader it's about setting that culture that direction in a meaningful manner that speaks to the individual but also sets a unified culture so that you steer the ship really well as well

Emma:

super interesting insights those because I think there is a kind of a prevailing negativity a little bit around that generation that you know and interesting that you say they're super resilient because I think that's one of the things the the criticisms that certainly I have heard that that perhaps they're they're not whether that's you know been true or not for that person that said it but yeah really interesting to hear your insights there that it's perhaps a difference in style as much as it is almost a bit of a miscommunication perhaps how you know one generation is relating to another as opposed to oh well actually the way the way they're doing it is not as good or the way they're doing it is you know quote unquote wrong it's just different and if you haven't necessarily kind of taken the time to understand that difference and perhaps adapt your own approach, that maybe that's where that kind of disconnect is coming from.

Janice:

And I think if you reflect as a leader, the teams that you lead and the cross-functional teams that are involved in solving problems, it's the diversity of thinking that brings new ideas and innovation and growth. And I think it's the same when you look at the new generation of leaders. The way they think, the way they operate is different and it may not be as structured and it may not. And at times I think as leaders, we see it as unprofessional, but it's interesting what they bring to the table if we listen. And I think as leaders and coaches, we also have an accountability to show them the way, but also show them the way with tools where they come and find the solution themselves and bring the best out of their creativity and their curiosity so that they find solutions. And that's how growth occurs. If we're doing the same, if we're doing the same things over and over again, I think it just shows that we're not bringing that critical thinking. I was just reading an article by the CEO of Amazon on HBR and he, the way they run their business as a large matrix organization is very flatlined and entrepreneurial. And, you know, his key insight is bringing critical thinking to the table and not be, not fall into the stigma of what is the same thing. And growth is driven by real critical thinking and having that innovative and open-minded approach. And it's that agility. And I think I've been in some businesses where they were very, they were attracted in that venture capital slash entrepreneurial side that I can bring value to. But when you're When you enter into those organizations, it comes on the top around the openness to be agile and how open they are to stimulate that growth. And if they're not, you know, and if they're not open-minded in their thinking and embracing, and I don't think if it's even entrepreneurial, it's just an agile mindset. It's really hard to see that embedded. And it's the same when you're bringing out the best out of your team and we performing culture. It's the same when you're leading your teams and bring the best out of them and understanding the differences, not just around generation, but individuals themselves.

Emma:

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I think as well related to that and also to something that you said earlier around in hindsight, one of the things that you really enjoyed was working across different industries, different sizes of businesses, different types of businesses. And to me, I think those two things are quite related and And I think one of the things that I always found really surprising when I was recruiting for many years was that, and it was always in the marketing space, but, you know, people saying, oh, well, we want someone that's coming from the same industry. Like we only want to look at people from our space. And I never understood it. And my sort of pushback was very much around what you've just said. Well, if we're just hiring the same experience over and over again and we are we getting the same thinking are we getting the same approach like where's the where's the innovation where's the you know the the out of the box thinking of oh well why are we doing it this way why have we never looked at it in a through a through a different lens and I think it's a so related point to what to what you're saying there and as I sort of observed it over the years I was always trying to work out like what was underneath it and and where was it coming from and and the closest I could get was that it felt to me a bit like risk aversion that if we are always hiring from the same industry we've we've sort of mitigated risk and again like I can see where they're coming from but then again my argument would be the opposite well you've mitigated for one type of risk but you've actually brought in a different type of risk altogether which is is potentially that it's just going to be group think group think group think because we've we've all kind of come from the same space. Have you experienced that in the organisations that you've been in? I

Janice:

think, Emma, it's not just organisations. I think even if we look at how tough the market is at the moment, a lot of companies are looking for that same, same approach. But the reason why you're hiring is you're looking for change and growth. And I think you've raised a really interesting point here around, are you seeking change and growth If that's the case, then fresh thinking, new critical mindsets are fundamental in delivering that. And that's one of the things I learned in private equity. You don't join a business that's owned by a private equity group without understanding how to scale growth really quickly and then drive profitability and cost out really fast. But if you're a business that's hiring for the same, same, you know, I don't think it's just risk mitigation. it's just it's potentially a mindset around how to get speed to market how to get speed in the initiative you have and also the ability for that person to hit the ground running so if I take FMCG as an example there's so many nuances that you learn working in the industry that if you're someone coming from a B2B or service space it will be so new and those intricate elements may trip them over in terms of the success that that ability to implement. However, I think the opportunity is hiring for growth is really looking for someone that can bring new thinking and stretch because the stretchability enables new ideas to come to the table. Otherwise you're potentially going to recycle the same ideas you've had the last five to 10 years. And it might be the same results you're looking for. And I think it's about looking for for the soft skills and the mindset, right? If you've got someone with an adult mindset, an ability to be probably more entrepreneurial with their approach, happy to roll their sleeves up to learn about the business quite quickly, I think they can move and deliver change. That's what I found when I shifted into the pure play environment and I landed my management role at doTERRA, you know, I haven't come from a direct selling environment, you know, and in FMCG, 90% of your sales was from retail, e-com. I mean, you know, FMCG businesses are talking about it, but they're not as established as a true e-com business. And to shift into a completely different, I guess, sales channel, you know, and in direct selling, it's also managing distributors, franchisees, and their mini shareholders. That's quite a different play to managing a coleslaw and then obviously your independence. So you don't have two big clients that you service and you partner with them and you build relationships and that's locked in after 12 months. You're always building relationships in a B2B franchisee model and you're always listening, you're always pivoting and you always get feedback and that adds complexity when you're leading a marketing and innovation function because you can be pulled into different directions. Whereas when you're servicing in a retail model like FNCG and Grocery, if you have a Coles or Woolworths on board, you've landed strong distribution. You can move. You move and you invest. But I think it's just, you know, my learning from this is just you just have to have a very curious and agile mindset. You know, one of the things I learned quite quickly was I feel the knowledge gap of learning a very different business model. And although they were consumable products, I also was leading a team through a massive change in regulation through TTA, like 80% of the products were essential oils and supplements that were TTA listed. So to be able to market that in an environment where majority of your distributor network were healthcare professionals. So they, they weren't able to sell their own brands. able to sell your product lines. And that's not something that a grocery environment would have taught me because that's in for Zant. So they're completely different regulations. But what the principles that you learn in a highly regulated environment and leads to different critical thinking and also the agility to be able to move that pace to learn a new regulatory environment. So I think it's about what did you learn in the space you have What skills did it teach you? And how do you apply those soft skills into a new environment? I think that's more important. So if I was a hiring manager looking to drive change with a remit of change and growth, I would have a think about looking at talent that was existing in the industry, but also looking at talent that have maybe come from a different space, but bring skills to the table that will help add value to my team. But also when I'm interviewing them, ask me for questions around how they think and how they work and how they solve problems. Because it might surprise them around the different types of talent pool and it might bring some fresh new thinking that they're looking for.

Emma:

Yeah. Interesting your point there on FMCG, because as I was, you know, for years, whinging about this same industry experience. The only caveat I would ever have on it was FMCG. I would kind of let that one through as, yeah, I think FMCG is actually really nuanced and I could kind of understand the reasons for that. But even, and you touched on it there, you mentioned kind of the regulated or heavily regulated industry with the essential oils. Even something like that, I remember I had this conversation quite often with clients that were in super and they would be quite specific of saying, we want someone coming from super. Super's quite a small industry. You're looking for a comms person within super, like that's a super short list. It's not like that's thousands of people that you can choose from. So even just kind of challenging that thinking to say, okay, what's the kind of core skills that you're looking for there? What's the thing that you're getting if you get someone from super? And it kind of came back to well it's the ability to operate and do comms in a highly regulated environment okay so if that's the thing we're looking for then what other highly regulated environments are there well you could maybe look at someone from energy because that's the same that's the same kind of skill when they're writing comms it's going to have some really strict guidelines legal are going to be very involved you know all of that kind of thing so even just kind of challenging thinking in in that way and to your point and and the thing I I really resonate with that you've said a couple of times is the ability to solve problems. And if you kind of take it back to that, what are the problems that we're trying to solve? What kind of, I don't know, ecosystems are those problems existing? And let's actually focus on that. And almost the marketing becomes, it's a toolkit, you know, and solving the problem is the ultimate goal. And then you kind of go into your marketing toolkit to select the right tool to solve that broader business problem. And that's kind of how I think of hiring these days. It's they have a business problem that either they don't know how to solve or that they don't have the resources to solve. And that's what the hiring is for. And I think if you're the candidate going into that process or if you're the hiring manager, I think approaching it with that sort of overarching mindset is really helpful. And I think you get a much personally, I think you get a much better outcome. by approaching it that way and asking those types of questions. And I agree with you, Emma.

Janice:

It's about unpacking how that person solves problems, right? Yeah. So if I reflect back in the TGA example that I mentioned, we had a business crisis to have a regulatory body change the way a business markets themselves, not just as a brand. Like we can't like, you know, companies like Swiss, it's not just even at doTERRA, it's probably like, we cannot use healthcare professionals and I've been doing it for a long time to add credibility, right? You look at pharmaceutical companies like the own Panadol, like they've been using healthcare professionals, right? But when I approached that crisis moment, I actually thought through what were the regulatory crisis moments that I had to handle with the teams I worked with in food manufacturing and beverage. And so I reflected around production make and launches that we had serious quality challenges that we had to overcome. So we might not even have stock to launch and to range. And what were some of those navigation points that we had to go through? And what were some of the questions, the motivational pieces that I had to leverage? And how did I have to bring the best out of the team? And they're very transferable, right? So the situation may be different, but the way you handle handle it needs to be very similar. And so when you're working with someone at a technical lens in a food beverage environment that is all about food safety, meeting regulations, and then you go into a pharmaceutical environment that have a very similar mindset, how do you actually bring the best of those stakeholders? And it was the same way that I brought the best out of our internal team. And when you work with techie people, they are very knowledgeable in their space, but then you have to also bring that language back into marketing speak so that you can bring your customer on the journey and educate them so that they understand how things work. And we had major distributors that were extremely concerned whether they can still participate and run their business model. So that was an education piece. And then also educating my team around how do you end up marketing our brand differently? And that's exactly the same as what you've mentioned around superannuation, right? So what are those pieces that you need to bring your consumer, your customer, your internal team on the journey? How do you get the sign off so that you mitigate business risk? And what are the questions that you ask? And what's the style you adapt to? Because I'm guessing in superannuation, you're working with technical people that you have to communicate with them in a certain manner to build trust and the same thing works in a food and beverage environment and the same that works within a pharmaceutical environment as well

Emma:

yeah as you said it comes down to well it comes down like everything comes down to people doesn't it and how you communicate and adapt to people and and understanding what that person's driver is you know that the person that you might perceive as as being a blocker Because every time you go to legal, they're like, no, no, no, you can't do that. And, you know, we're all human. You might get frustrated by that. But actually, like, no, that person's not just blocking me for the sake of blocking me. Like, they have their own drivers. Like, they have their own things that they're trying to solve for, which is around, am I protecting the company? Am I mitigating risk? Am I, you know, are we operating within the legal guidelines? You know, all of those kind of things. So I think just the ability... just because it's not a simple thing but the ability to try and put yourself in the other person's shoes and and see things from the other person's perspective and then as you say build trust and understanding and and try and kind of work work together sounds obviously really simple and the reality is a little bit more challenging than that but one of the other things I was really interested in Janice is in terms of your sort of leadership journey when you sort of think back and you were sort of initially kind of starting off on that it's it's one of the things that comes up quite often of I guess that little bit of chicken and the egg you know if you don't yet have leadership experience how do you get into your first role if they're looking for people that have only got leadership experience how do you how did you navigate that and and what were the things that kind of made a difference for for you yeah

Janice:

um so I I remember when I I was working at McCain's at that time and the marketing director at that time that I was working with. She's still a really good friend of mine, Nikki. She also encouraged me that to take the next step. So what I didn't know was they were ready to promote me. And the feedback she gave me was that I needed to learn to listen more and to emphasise with the people that I'm working with. So I was still in a functional role and I had no direct reports, but I was in visible projects that worked with cross-functional teams. And it's not just cross-functional teams with peers, but also with quite senior staff in the organisation as well. So her advice was to partner with the operations manager at that time. And so I partnered with her and one of the things she taught me was to walk the line with her once a week. What I learnt through that experience was just the personable approach that she had and that her ability to listen and understand individuals And she would always ask about them whenever she crossed paths with them. And that taught me a really valuable lesson. And I still, I still have opportunities in the listening space. My husband always says I have room to grow in that space. And I think as leaders, you know, you, you do fall into this trap around driving business performance and getting the best out of your team versus listening. And it's a, it's, it's a feasible effect. You, you, It's something you work towards and it's ongoing. But that really taught me a valuable leadership lesson around listening, being comfortable with myself, to be authentic with others and work with others in a very personal space. And I found that the engagement that I bought in the teams that I was leading on particularly innovation projects that were quite cross-functional and also cost optimization projects, because they're extremely sensitive when you start changing things. that are working in a business, I saw some really great results in implementation. So if I reflect on what I learned then in an operational level, it's just opening up yourself in opportunities to influence and guide and lead in initiatives in an organization. You don't have to have a direct report or a team to lead to be a leader. You are a leader. if you set the mindset right and you work with others and a leader is all about bringing people on the journey and getting outcomes delivered for business that delivers meaningful business results, right? Where we see a lot of opportunity and innovation fail is the lack of implementation, the ability to bring initiatives to market. And that's what I find is the sweet spot. So when I would pivot and You know, in the role I led at doTERRA, I had a team of 20 and it was 40% vacancy, change remits, new processes. And you know, the remit was we need to get work done and the work wasn't getting done. We had an exceptional team, like every single person on a team was exceptional. And, and what I learned and through that experience and reflecting back what I learned early in my career was stepping back and listening. And I found in the first three months, I wasn't embedding the change quick enough. So I then pivoted and thought back, what did I learn in my career? Right. And I thought back in that instant in McCain. So as a leader, I met with every single staff every six weeks, whether it's direct or indirect report for 30 minutes, at least for one-on-one. That's a lot of time for that size team. But what I found was it was listening. and genuinely about the individuals. And it reminded me of that walk in the unsight. And I would always ask about them. How are they going? How are they, what's keeping them awake at night? It was less about work. It was more about them as individuals. And it's interesting when as a leader, you find that when you start genuinely caring about some of these areas, there's actually a lot of things that people go through we're just people right we have a lot of things that we go through that are potentially holding us back in performance and I remember helping an individual in the team out and helping them find their way they I ended up promoting that person twice in the time I was in the company and and it's so rewarding so then when I and it was actually a reverse gift too so when I a pregnant with my daughter at that time every single person in there one-on-one turned around and came to me and said enough about me what about you how could I help you this is such a wonderful time in your life and you know you sit back and reflect as a leader and go when you ever sit and listen genuinely care about the people you work with and know that they are individuals themselves it might surprise you what comes through and it might surprise Even with people you think are not performing well or may not be bringing the best out of themselves at work, it might just be something else that needs to be unlocked or they just might need someone that genuinely cares and listens to them, that they feel safe and heard and it's a trustworthy environment for them to bring the best out of themselves. And that was really an aha moment for me as a leader.

Emma:

Yeah. It's so interesting, isn't it, sometimes when you look back of really pivotal moments and, you know, walking the line at McCain with the operational person. You know, I wonder how many times over the years you've kind of thought back to that and what at the time you perhaps don't realise how pivotal this was, this, you know, behaviour that you've observed in someone else. I think it's super interesting how that is often the case, actually. Final question, Janice, and it's always the final question here. And that is, what do you know now that you wish you knew then? So

Janice:

I wish the advice I received early in my career was to be open and progressive with the opportunity. So if I reflect back in terms of what has helped supported my growth as a leader and in my career was by not taking a traditional linear path. And a lot of the advice I received early in my career was take this path. This is what's going to help you succeed. And everyone follows. It was a very linear approach. And what I learned being agile and embracing a progressive pathway in a, in a very different way. I think it really, it opened up my eyes in terms of what were the opportunities, what were the type of culture environments that I enjoy and bring the best out of me and also where I can add value as a leader. And what are the type of change roommates that excite me? So I always think about what would excite me and where can I help add value rather than what's the next linear path.

Emma:

Yeah, there's this great analogy. I've talked about it before on the podcast. I don't know if you've heard it, but we always talk about the career ladder, right? The super linear, the next step is the next one, the next rung up the ladder. But what if it's not a ladder? What if it's a rock climbing wall? And you can go in all different directions. You can go backwards to go across, to go up, to go left, to go right. And to me, I just think that's such a more appropriate and also far more interesting way to think of it, that it's not just this very fixed linear thing. You've got all of these different options open to you.

Janice:

And you still reach the destination, don't you, Emma?

Emma:

Yeah, exactly. You just reach it a different way. Yeah, there's not only one way to the top that you might have to... And the quote-unquote fastest route might actually be to take two steps back to go down to the left because you need to go way over here to get to the top. I think it's a really clever way, a clever analogy and a clever way to think about

Janice:

it. It's not my

Emma:

idea, by the way. I'm busy saying it's clever, but...

Janice:

And sometimes the view at a different spot versus the top may be very interesting and maybe probably could be more rewarding as well.

Emma:

Yeah, and may also completely change your perspective because things look different from different places, right? So yeah, it's a good one. Great piece of advice. I like it. Thank you.

Janice:

Oh, no, it's a pleasure. And I really enjoyed the chat. I love that analogy. I think I'm going to bring that to my future coaching sessions as well. Yeah,

Emma:

it's... so originally from Harvard Business School I'll dig it out and I'll send it to you because I do think it's a really it's a really useful one yeah great great before you go I've got a quick favour to ask if you enjoyed this episode or something in it resonated with you I'd love it if you could leave a quick review or rating on Apple Podcasts it's one of the best ways to help more people find the show and I love to hear what's landing with you just scroll down in the app tap a star rating and if you've got 30 seconds leave a few words too thanks again again for listening I really appreciate it

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Emma Graham

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